Mini 1579: The Great Flavor Caper (Game Over)

[Wake1]

Random.org says VOTE: Elyse.

Let's see what happens.

[Wake1]

Really? Nothing else you want to comment on?

Nothing pertinent. Still analyzing thread.

[Wake1]

UNVOTE: Elyse

Scouring thread one last time.

[Wake1]

Unintentional manipulation? 41.

[Wake1]

Unintentional manipulation? 41.

?

Are you saying his posts were manipulative?

No.

He said he didn't intend to manipulate.

[Wake1]

What does post #237 mean then?

How does one unintentionally manipulate?

[Wake1]

Thank you, T S O.

I don't understand how one can unintentionally manipulate. That is similar to saying one didn't intend to lie.

Aren't these things—manipulation and deceit—deliberate?

[Wake1]

Look dude, chaos is town and he didn't admit to being manipulative. I hope you've found something else interesting since post #41 by this point in the game seriously

The only innocents are bodies.

He admitted being manipulative, but unintentionally.

[Wake1]

I didn't see it. I believe you are intentionally mistaking his tone. The way he said he did not intend to manipulate to me sounds like he was very kindly saying "fuck off"

It's in the first sentence.

To you it sounded liked a very kind "fuck off"? Why?

[Wake1]

Wake you said yourself that you didn't believe chaos was being manipulative.

Where?

I'm questioning his statement that he didn't intend to manipulate. How does one unintentionally manipulate others?

Mirhawk, please elaborate on this.

[Wake1]

Its perfectly possible to be manipulative in a non deliberate manner.

How?

I've been checking scientific sources and have found no mention of it.

It was fairly unimportant, and he fessed as soon as I called him on it instead of trying to pretend it didn't happen so I'd call this pretty small potatoes.

Hm...

[Wake1]

I'm not sure about his post. He mentioned he was being unintentionally manipulative. I question how that's even possible.

[Wake1]

So you admit that he wasn't manipulative in the first place?

Hm. I'm not liking this Scummy defense of someone else. VOTE: bacde

I question his comment about being unintentionally manipulative. Because it's in question, I can't confidently affirm that he was or wasn't doing so. But... I think you know that.

[Wake1]

How could one admit to lying if they hadn't lied in the first place? Even if they worded themselves by saying "I did not intend to lie"?

Do you have any reads about anything from after page two? I thought that you have been reading the thread?

Yes, I do.

What I'm starting to wonder is why you're defending him while trying to sway me to a different issue.

[Wake1]

Lol, welcome to my scumpile, bub.

Still wanna get josh_b first.

And you mine.

Keep my words in context, and stop trying to shift my attention.

[Wake1]

Manipulation is at its heart just a adjusting the way you say something so it will be received in the most favorable way possible. Have you ever known someone who consistently downplays the achievements of others or phrases the stories they tell to make themselves look better then the other people involved. It's not like these people are purposely trying to continually make the people around them look worse, its subconscious, that's just the way they talk.

To be fair this isn't what chaos did. He made a soft scumpush on bacde which included a mild attack on bacde's credability.

I considered it relatively minor, so when I called him on it I wasn't very serious.

His backdown seemed pretty legitimate so I dropped it.

To manipulate is to control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.

He says he did so unintentionally. This is what I want answers on. I want him to explain it.

[Wake1]

I'm defending him because I think he's town and I'm trying to sway you to a different issue because I think your issue is irrelevant

Yeah. Or you're Scum defending your partner. If you want me to believe you're Town, you'll keep my words in context without trying to twist them or subvert my thoughts. You thinking an issue being brought up for examination as irrelevant is itself irrelevant. It's not your place to decide which issues merit more research and investigation that others.

[Wake1]

He never said that he "unintentionally manipulated" ya big dork he said he "did not intend to manipulate"

Him stating it was not his intent to manipulate doesn't mean he didn't do so.

Mirhawk, where did you say he confessed to his unintentional manipulation?

[Wake1]

Everything submitted by a researcher is put up for peer review. Consider this a critique from your colleague

Mafiascum.net isn't an academic institution.

I don't care if a scum "thinks" I am town

I'm not Scum, and your behavior is not doing you any favors. The reason I am voting for you is because you seem to be blocking my Scumhunting while pushing me to discuss other issues like you want me to look elsewhere.

[Wake1]

Do you think he was manipulative or not? Lol

That's what I'm trying to find out, which is why I'm asking

him

.

Then stop acting like you are doing "research". The best you can come up with is something from PAGE TWO. Why didn't you bring this up then?

I don't need your favors. I'm already lynching your scumpartner josh_b

This latest behavior is interesting. First you assume I'm acting like I'm doing research. Then you say the best I could "come up with" is something from page two, even though you don't seem to have considered that I've been taking notes during my analysis. Third, you seem to think that things should be brought up early, when in reality it doesn't matter that much so long as the issue is brought up.

[Wake1]

He never did, I was paraphrasing. What he did say was that if he did manipulate that it was unintentional.

Don't try to drag me into this, I think chaos is town.

Now wait a minute. You say he "never did" what, exactly? Never confessed? You did say he "fessed." So if he fessed as you say so, would you please link that post for us please?

First he said it wasn't his intent to manipulate. He later in that post said "If I came off manipulative then that was not was I intended at all." His first sentence doesn't mesh with his third.

[Wake1]

Do you think he was manipulative or not? Lol

That's what I'm trying to find out, which is why I'm asking

him

.

Then stop acting like you are doing "research". The best you can come up with is something from PAGE TWO. Why didn't you bring this up then?

I don't need your favors. I'm already lynching your scumpartner josh_b

This latest behavior is interesting. First you assume I'm acting like I'm doing research. Then you say the best I could "come up with" is something from page two, even though you don't seem to have considered that I've been taking notes during my analysis. Third, you seem to think that things should be brought up early, when in reality it doesn't matter that much so long as the issue is brought up.

IIoA my friend. You fail to describe why my actions are scummy. Because they aren't.

You said that you were doing research.

You're being dishonest by trying to shift the discussion to something else.

You stated in 267 that you were trying to sway me to a different issue because you think the discrepancy I'm trying to uncover is irrelevant. I respond in 272 by telling you it's not your place to decide which issues are relevant and which aren't, or those that merit research or investigation.

Now you're going off on a tangent about research and peers, when this messageboard isn't an academic institution.

As long as you try to shift the discussion and twist the context of my words, you'll stay in my scumpile. If you're Town, be honest.

[Wake1]

The point of my making a home about research was to argue that it is indeed my place, as a member of this game, to argue what is and isn't relevant to finding scum.

So long as Townies are Scumhunting, any questionable thing being investigated and analyzed is relevant.

[Wake1]

There is no discrepancy

That you think there isn't doesn't mean we can't delve into them. We don't need your approval to Scumhunt. You're not a Scumhunting God.

Then let the townies scumhunt, we will lynch you tomorrow

I am a Townie, so how about you stop trying to prevent me from Scumhunting? The only reason you'd get in the way of trying to find Scum is that you yourself are Scum and have something to hide. And you try it, bacde.

[Wake1]

Now wait a minute. You say he "never did" what, exactly? Never confessed? You did say he "fessed." So if he fessed as you say so, would you please link that post for us please?

First he said it wasn't his intent to manipulate. He later in that post said "If I came off manipulative then that was not was I intended at all." His first sentence doesn't mesh with his third.

As I said, I was paraphrasing. So no, he did not directly admit to manipulation. Rather he allowed for the possibility that he had been doing some.

I'll take that into consideration.

Frankly, I'd like to hear it directly from him in order to gauge his response.

[Wake1]

So you admit that he wasn't manipulative in the first place?

Hm. I'm not liking this Scummy defense of someone else. VOTE: bacde

I question his comment about being unintentionally manipulative. Because it's in question, I can't confidently affirm that he was or wasn't doing so. But... I think you know that.

Welcome to the realm of obvtown Wake. No one is unitentionally manipulative. You also have your vote on scum.

I am asking you to switch onto even stronger scum with a bigger wagon. Then tomorrow you me and Reinoe can shred Bacde to his core, likely confirming his scum status.

Then we'll shred Elyse.

Your annilhator beam, Reinoe's jaws of doom, my interstellar logic tsunamis... even if I am wrong, we still will win.

GG. Game solved.

I will chill with the inlaws for Dad's day. Expect slower responses.

Is this Good Titus or Evil Titus?

HRM...

[Wake1]

Alright. To recap.

In 237 I mused at chaoslord's 41, in which he said it wasn't his intent to manipulate. Later in that post he said that if he came off as manipulative then that was not what he intended at all. The reason I questioned manipulation being unintentional... is that Psychological manipulation is a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics.* When something is underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive, how is it not intentional? If someone's being unintentionally manipulative, it must mean that that person must be rather manipulative in general, right?

Oddly, bacde jumps in to defend chaoslord from my question. If the point of Mafia is to question players and gauge their reactions, why would a supposed Townie get in the way of it? I think he's mainly being combative and belligerent, as though he doesn't want me doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Only Scum has reason to obfuscate and hinder the information-gathering process.

What T S O said in 243 sums it up, basically. I have never heard of someone "accidentally" manipulating someone. Bacde's ardent defense of chaoslord being Town when we're only in Day 1 makes no sense, which makes me wonder what he's doing there, as well. Another thing of note is that in 245 bacde said CL (chaoslord) didn't admit to being manipulative, yet in 41 CL did say he didn't intend to manipulate, and later in 253 Mirhawk says CL confessed as soon as he called him on it.

Throughout this discussion bacde's tried to force me to say that I either think CL was being manipulative or isn't, when the actual issue was me questioning CL on whether it's even possible for manipulation to be unintentional. In 245 he starts trying to derail my inquiry onto something else. Townies son't derail inquiry. Scum does, though. He also assumes I don't have any reservations on other issues, either. I'm simply at the top of my list. There's a reason my analysis took a while.What also sounds like obfuscation is how bacde in 248 says that he got a kind "fuck you" from CL's 41. I didn't in the slightest, and I'd like an explanation from bacde on what specifically makes him get that feeling from CL's post.

Also note in 251 when I asked bacde how he got a kind "fuck you" from CL's post he never answered it[/post] in 252. Whether that was deliberate or not I don't know, so I want answers. Mirhawk in 253 says it's perfectly possible to unintentionall manipulate people, yet I still haven't found any sort of credible source that says it's possible, or common. And if it is indeed very rare, why? And I do note the feeling that he's downplaying this by calling this curiosity of mine unimportant. Seeing as there's likely 3 scum we're dealing with, I'm more than a little conscious of claims over what is and isn't important. No one gets to decide what is and isn't important to question. Seeing that bacde at least twice requoted my posts before I had responded also makes me question what exactly he's doing, and why.

Yet again bacde, like an annoyed defense attorney/obfuscator, tries to get me to say whether I think CL was being manipulative or not, when that's what I'm trying to figure out: 259. Again in 260 he pesters by trying to get me to look elsewhere, while quipping that I haven't been reading the thread even though my first posts make it quite clear that I was. This kind of defense-attorney-like stuff is why I cast my vote against him in 261. He then in the next post puts me in his Scumpile while not being specific as to why. Mirhawk then tries to define manipulation in 264, even though, according to Oxford, manipulation is either 1) handling or controlling (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner or 2) controlling or influencing (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously. I do wonder about Mirhawk's latest posts up to that point.

Interestingly in 266 he then incorrectly says why I voted for him. I voted for bacde because he's being like a defense attorney, trying to shift my focus elsewhere, and taking my words out of context. I won't stop until my curiosity is satisfied, so when you get in the way of the flow of gathering information, to the point where I feel I'm being unsuccessfully manipulated, I'll not hesitate to cast my vote and gauge your next reactions. Funny how bacde thinks CL is Town when it's only Day 1, and how he says which issues are relevant and which aren't: 267. He's just awfully combative and defensive. How about you bacde let CL respond to the question directed towards him, yeah?

I'm not done, either. Mind's just damned inquisitive right now and pulling at this string to see what unravels.

[Wake1]

Wow, a lot of posts since last time.

I'll be reading up shortly.

[Wake1]

Fine. I'll VOTE: Slandaar and you'll put him at L1 so he can claim.

[Wake1]

Ah. That's Night-vig?

UNVOTE: slandaar

[Wake1]

Why should I vote for him?

[Wake1]

My energy is spent elsewhere.

I'll reread soon. It's one thing to read 500+ posts multiple times over, but another to also hyper-analyze them over and over again.

[Wake1]

So, who's feeling manipulated yet?

[Wake1]

Funny how things happen when you're inactive for a bit.

Oh well, time to sift through the mess and ask pointed questions again.

[Wake1]

So, who's feeling manipulated yet?

What do you mean?

I mean, who is feeling manipulated yet?

Meaning, who here feels like they're getting manipulated?

[Wake1]

Time to play, then. Maybe my excellent analyses and reads will bring back those who called me obvtown, lol.

Gimme a moment or so.

[Wake1]

evilpacman18

1.1

Anyways, let's start with this guy. 5 said nothing. 26 falls along those lines as well. I wonder what exactly was the reason for 59. Ah, 313 as well. And, in 547, we see an unvote. No reservations there it would seem... So by 548 we see pacman saying he's reading, and he's obviously distracted by more important things like soccer.

Does anyone else see the irony in 566

? You would think someone with less than 8 posts and a proclivity for being distracted and unhelpful wouldn't vote someone else for being distracted? It's almost like a comedy, that excuse of his. Probably Scum for being the 2nd person to use random.org in the RVS, too? If something is bullshit, that excuse is it.

So, what do I honestly think?

At worst I think we have incompetent Scum trying to creep along. At best I think we have a rather wayward Townie who's both lazy and distracted, and not inclined to do much to really Town or question things. Or is that the way around...? Let's start with his poor reasoning and then branch out as to what I deeply think of his slot's alignment. One, him saying my random vote was Scummy is ludicrous, and I wonder how many others here acknowledge that as well. Secondly him saying my 101 is Scummy and full of shit is hilarious considering the man is guilt of doing far less in this game than myself. If anything is full of shit I reckon it'd be his hypocrisy and vapid reasoning in this game. Or is that deliberate? I can only wonder that sane, average player would use those reasons to vote someone off, unless, of course, it's a bluff to get a reaction out of me. In that case, congratulations.

The gut doesn't know for sure what he is or isn't. Town normally doesn't say such outrageous things unless it's some sort of reaction test. Is it better to give players the benefit of the doubt, or go psycho-paranoid and come up with books as to why he must now be Scum? It really doesn't matter what the majority thinks when it comes to giving my honest gut reads, so currently I'm torn. So, where to put him? From the median, a tad towards the dark side because most Townies don't vote like that unless it's a bluff.

⬤

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[Wake1]

In time, Titus.

Why the eagerness?

[Wake1]

In time, Titus.

Why the eagerness?

When you fencesit, it makes you really hard to read. Your early stuff was pretty town, but I had somethings wrong probably (I doubt both Slandaar and Bacde are not town, although one may still be). I need something from you that takes a stance to read you.

Because we have no workable knowledge Day 1, I'm comfortable not rushing to take a side, while asking questions and providing detailed analyses. You may not know this, but I was preparing to ask some questions, too. While being read as Town doesn't hurt, I care more about providing my own reads while hunting down Scum.

[Wake1]

Titus, your thoughts on my analysis of evilpacman?

[Wake1]

Waffled?

Isn't it analysis when you break things down and try to interpret and explain things?

Hm... Is that you, Scum-Titus?

[Wake1]

Titus

———✹

Titus, why exactly did you call me obvTown, and what changed?

———✹

Would you provide a detailed read of evilpacman, please?

———✹

Your top 3 Scumreads currently?

———✹

73 bothers me. What do you think?

[Wake1]

the problem is your whole post is

"He calls my post, here, scummy. The only thing scummy is HIM! What a hypocrite! Damn!"

With no actual refutations of any sort.

If you want to to simplify things in a disingenuous way, I guess you can say that.

Wake, it feels like you've taken a massive confidence hit. What's up with that?

Even if I did, which I haven't, I'm not sure what that'd have to do with our game.

so then you are saying you did something to give the appearance of doing something...

vote wake.

No.

I'm saying that I don't care that much to appear obvTown, because that is what Scum does.

I think it would help if you'd read my posts.

[Wake1]

Wake88 you havent done shit stop pretending titus is scum

vote wake88

First of all, I have done shit.

Secondly, I'm not pretending Titus is Scum. I'm wondering if she is. I think she may be.

You pull out a post from page 3, that has already been well discussed this game

Nice.

Right. I forgot. When you're done discussing a post then no one else can.

Wait a minute. We're in the real world. If I want to discuss an old post that irks me I damn well will.

[Wake1]

Titus

———✹

Titus, why exactly did you call me obvTown, and what changed?

———✹

Would you provide a detailed read of evilpacman, please?

———✹

Your top 3 Scumreads currently?

———✹

73 bothers me. What do you think?

Oh finally. Now we see this.

What happened... let's see here. First, two of my scumreads are likely PRs meaning my reads were shit. Second, you were behaving like obvtown and then lurked out.

I can't. No one can. I have concerns I hit upon when I first came in. Anyone who says Pacman is scum or town for certain is probably wrong or doing PoE.

Elyse, Chaos, You (no one needs to "prepare to ask questions")

*shrug* That post could be an apologetic player or could be scum. I'd interpret it as scum because I'm scumreading Chaos.

Also, what do you think of these sudden silly votes on me?

The reason I don't take anything seriously Day 1 when it comes to calling people Town or Scum is precisely why in your first answer here. As for "lurking out," I'm hosting a rather large game elsewhere with 14 contentious newbies, as well as having work and, well, a life. Just a tad busy.

As for #2, why can't you provide a detailed read of evilpacman's posts? Look at his posts like I did. Read them as I read them. Then provide your thoughts on what you feel not only about each post, but on all of them put together. You can't give a detailed read of pacman right now? Bull. Sure you can. Whether you're right or wrong, give it a shot. If I can do it, and I'm barely ever on here, you certainly can do so. And as for your second part to my 2nd question, what do you make of these fellows who are voting me and declaring one way or another what my alignment is? Do you not also think they're probably wrong? I'm just curious, and I do get tired when I meet wayward resistance during the Scumhunting process.

WAIT A MINUTE. On #3, you certainly CAN prepare to ask questions. I'm not going to go berserk and start firing off a bunch of questions when they may have already been answered. Why do you think I kept rereading the game thread? Not just to find good questions, but to avoid asking questions that were already answered. Do you think it is good play to ask questions that have already been answered by others? Why Elyse and Chaos? Elyse has primarily been ignoring my posts, so I'm not sure what my guts reads on her are.

As for #4, people assume chaoslord is new. He could very well be a legit, alternate account of an experienced player. I've read that "conscious, stream of thought" posts are indicative of being a Townie. His post, #73, had an extremely long sentence in it. Does it not make you wonder that it may have been intentional? Maybe I'm paranoid, or just too curious for my own good, but I do have reservations about CL.

[Wake1]

No. I'm saying that I don't care that much to appear obvTown, because that is what Scum does. I think it would help if you'd read my posts.

I have read posts, you apparently got obsessed and in a piss off with Bacde over the use of word manipulation...
you had one post where you spent time detailing a case on chaoslord. You comment that your curiosity was peaked and you cannot stop once you been peaked. You then preceded to go into lurk-a-derp mode. You come back, see the Evil packman vote and then post an OMGUS but not really post appearing to provide EPM analysis which really ends up saying nothing. An OMGUS engagement woulda been far more honest IMO, but I am an alien, so there is that.

Now, if you were using those eyeballs of yours, you'd know I was asking questions to get responses. You do know people do that in Mafia, I trust. What you try to say is obsessions is actually grabbing at loose threads and slowly pulling them until my curiosity is satisfied. If you're a Townie, that shouldn't bother you, right?

And if you were thoughtful, you would consider why I may have been absent. Besides, lurking is when you're online but not posting. I simply wasn't online for long periods of time. Not tell me again, was I lurking, or are you lying? I await your answer. Furthermore, if you were utilizing your consciousness effectively, it would have occurred to you that I'm creating large, individual analyses of every player here. Not just pacman. I think—and I don't mean to be rude—you should think more before you post. I mean, someone could think you're Scummy.

[Wake1]

SKOT, I wasn't "flying" at all because I was offline. That's not flying. That's parked.

Bacde I have a few more questions, but chances are those questions will be attacked, because of who knows why. I could keep persuing the CL thread on unintentional manipulation which is impossible, but the defense attorneys in this game will hinder and stifle the process of inquiry again. I'll peruse other discrepancies, but

I

decide which ones I pursue, not you, bacde. If people Scumhunt, don't get in the way.

[Wake1]

Mirhawk you see that wake is obv scum like josh_b right?

I had suspected that wake is town

Josh_b is an ok lynch but what about wake? Thats a lynch i could really get behind

Please explain this.

[Wake1]

Interesting. I'm not even flailing.

If I get to L1 please give me time to claim.

I'm thinking Josh is Scum by the smooth way he's rolled in, in spite of his earlier posts. Keep this in mind should I die.

[Wake1]

Ha, I don't even know why these votes are on me.

[Wake1]

No one seems to be reading my posts, either.

Can't say this isn't annoying, or more reason not to put energy into my posts. It just seems you get lynched when you put energy into the game, and because people don't read your posts they vote you without good reason. People should always lay really low during Day 1.

[Wake1]

I probably shouldn't, but I'm a bit close to just claiming my role right now. Not such if I'm being deliberately antagonized, or if people are deliberately being dense. It is frustrating, though.

[Wake1]

*not sure if.

[Wake1]

Oh well.

I'm the

Backup Town Cop

.

Maybe people will listen now.

[Wake1]

I've put in energy and provided my own thoughts and analyses, too.

But for some reason I've got four votes on me and I don't even know why. It's bullshit.

Maybe I am stressed with work right now, but at times I get mad and want to say "Hey, idiot, read my fucking post. I just said I was busy. Didn't you get that I was analyzing each player individually? Oh, you're going to be an asshole and dismiss this big posts I just put a good chunk of time into as bland/crap?"

How does that kind of crap not get you a bit angry?

[Wake1]

We should lynch Wake still.

Why?

[Wake1]

The Town Cop, if any, must stay quiet. If it means I get lynched then so be it.

Wit has its limits; stupidity doesn't. If you read my posts you'll see why I've been busy. Besides, if I have questions on old posts, who the hell is going to tell me I can't ask them? What, you can't ask questions if it's 20-posts-old? If you're Town, that's bad play right there. Not everyone has gobs of time to play a very complicated game, you know.

[Wake1]

I'm having a really tough time getting caught up in this game, but I don't want to replace out, either.

[Wake1]

Spoiler: Wake

Tons and tons of words and yet so little content. I don't know how someone can post so many words and so little content. And he's still doesn't even seem caught up with the game. The seems quite unreal to me. It's like a longwinded prod dodge. For example in post 691 he express concern about post 73. Like are you for real? 600 posts later you realize you're concerned about something like that? That is some fake concern right there. Interesting things I learned about that claim...

Backup cop is a convenient fake claim. It shows up so infrequently that it's unlikely to be counter-claimed. The role is now called "Deputy".

"Backup Cop" is a phrase that hasn't been used since Mini 1266

. It looks like he just looked at the mafiascum wiki and grabbed the name without considering the reality of it. I'd be willing to lynch him despite his claim.

Feels rather antagonistic and dishonest, since my large posts did provide substantial content. You can't really do anything about dishonest players besides lynching them, so whatever. Not everyone lives online, either. Some have jobs, and these things called responsibilities. Fake concern? Yeah, bud, that's

totally

not disingenuous.

If I were Scum, I'm claim either Town Cop or Town Doc, because if I were Scum I'd know who's who provided there isn't a 3rd party.

Yup, checked my role PM again. "Backup Town Cop" in bright green font. If you're still raring to lynch without reason, go ahead an try.

[Wake1]

If I were Scum, and there wasn't a 3rd party, I'd know their alignment but not their roles. That'd make it easy to fakeclaim Town Doc or Town Cop, while drawing out the real one (if any).

[Wake1]

Titus, may I have your opinion on basic Mafia gameplay?

[Wake1]

Titus, may I have your opinion on basic Mafia gameplay?

Of course. Always.

I've been trying to mold my gameplay. Providing thorough posts is draining and is rarely appreciated. I'm thinking of going the succinct route and playing like Natirasha and Wisdom. It'd be quite a change from my usual playstyle, but I'd have to expend far less energy, which is good. This game is played in so many different ways, that no way is exactly the same. What do you think of utilizing brevity and wit instead?

[Wake1]

It seems the less words one uses, the better.

[Wake1]

That's what I was afraid of, Mirhawk.

Prior to this game my usual strategy was to really analyze each player, and then provide an incredibly dense, cited, and well-structured analysis post for each individual player, complete with updates; older posts would be contained in spoilers. One problem is that that takes a LOT of time and effort. The other is that people tend to shrink away from big posts. However, I'm sure brevity has its own disadvantages, too.

[Wake1]

if there is a backup cop there is a cop -_-

What I said is correct.

Although not alignment-indicative, it's true.

Not that anyone is going to listen but TSO is likely scum his tone has been off all game.

I'm unfamiliar with his meta.

[Wake1]

Personally I think it's always good to use past posts because it can catch Scum off guard and be used to cross-reference a player's behavior in the game.

[Wake1]

Whats your take on the Elyse - Titus throwdown?

I've paid little attention to it. Elyse seems to be ignoring my presence, while my gut somewhat feels Titus is Scum. On the latter, I'll have to see more how she shifts to and fro in the wind.

[Wake1]

Bacde, why do you think the potential Cop should claim, in order to test my claim? I think you know that that'd be damaging to Town, because Scum would very much like the Town Cop out in the open. In your next post you then reason that there may also be a Roleblocker if there's a Cop. It feels somewhat like back-tracking. Do you still think the possible Town Cop should claim?

[Wake1]

the way he claimed it was indicative of sarcasm.

It was?

[Wake1]

Yeah Wake. It made me think you were a VT. The will you believe me now? Indicated that hey PR claimers Day 1 get away with murder, so I will claim to be one even though the claim is bad. No one ccs and we have a convo about scummy PR claimers

...

Not sarcasm. Frustration.

The tone's pretty commin to you but you foreclosed that.

That's news.

[Wake1]

Titus, what do you think of 821?

[Wake1]

Wake are you VT?

No. Why do you ask?

[Wake1]

Wake are you VT?

No. Why do you ask?

I was starting to think you may be a VT who fake claimed to save himself.

Alright. Why?

Whats your take on the Elyse - Titus throwdown?

I've paid little attention to it. Elyse seems to be ignoring my presence, while my gut somewhat feels Titus is Scum. On the latter, I'll have to see more how she shifts to and fro in the wind.

So in this you suspect Titus eh. So why would

"scumtitus"

defend you from getting lynched when several people were saying your claim was fake? Also why do you think

"scumtitus"

would play against her win condition?

My gut does, and somewhat. Why the bolded, please? Because my gut feeling is a gut feeling, I can't say exactly why Scum-Titus would do so. Scum-Titus is wily, so I can't practically explain her actions outside of the realm of a somewhat gut feeling.

[Wake1]

As I explained, Backup Cop is an extremely safe and unverifiable fake claim.

That fact is true.

Also, Deputy is a flavor name for a Backup Cop.

Out of curiosity, when you received your role PM was your role high-lighted in bright green? If so, which color code did you receive?

[Wake1]

Okay.

So besides TYR, who else is being awfully quiet?

[Wake1]

To you it sounded liked a very kind "fuck off"? Why?

Bacde, did you answer this question? If not, why?

[Wake1]

Most mods go with "Deputy".

This one didn't.

You do realize you did exactly what I was accusing you of earlier right?

Walk us through this please.

You just went to wikipedia and called it a day.

Forgive me for checking.

[Wake1]

Titus, I place value on your opinion.

What are your current reads, please?

[Wake1]

Apparently, some questions are forbidden. I'll not pursue that issue further.

[Wake1]

To you it sounded liked a very kind "fuck off"? Why?

Bacde, did you answer this question? If not, why?

No, because this question is fucking stupid

Why? Aren't we supposed to ask questions in Mafia? Your impression from that post is completely different than mine, so I'm trying to understand why. And if you refuse to even try to communicate with me on this in the search of answers, how can players not think that's incredibly suspicious?

You're basically clamming up again. To everyone else, is it normal for bacde to shy away from questions?

[Wake1]

Ah, well, what can you do.

Once I'm mislynched, heads will roll, so have fun with that.

Not sure exactly what a final reads list would do in Day 1—you can point at anything Day 1 and scream it's Scum.

[Wake1]

Obviously Scum is trying as hard as hell to get me lynched. That's a given.

It's possible that I'm Scum fakeclaiming as Town, but it's also possible I'm Backup Town Cop being honest.

Unless the game mod says otherwise, I don't see how it's impossible in a non-Bastard game to have a Backup Cop minus a Town Cop.

I don't know what strongarming means in Mafia terminology. He's said very little, too, so I'm currently neutral on him. He should be asked more questions.

And I don't blame Slandaar, either. If I knew you'd treat me this way for being active and pursuing my own questions, well, I'd be taciturn and quiet, too.

[Wake1]

Am I the only one who fucking sees this?

Sees what?

Me getting railroaded?

[Wake1]

Well, I think we do have a Town Cop, and that he or she must stay quiet. That some are wanting the Cop to out itself is odd. I'd rather be lynched than have the Cop outed. And I'd rather someone else be lynched than someone whose potential for contribution is directly influenced by the treatment he receives. Game's tough enough—trolling doesn't help.

[Wake1]

Another issue.

I am the Backup Town Cop. Should I not be mislynched, and if there's a Doctor in this game, should he/she protect me tonight?

Open to thoughts here.

[Wake1]

Personally I don't Scumhunt well Day 1, but I get a lot better with each passing Day, because I actually have something to work with than a blank map. I would say that could be said of everyone, but I find in my case my gameplay sucks worse than most early on, and better than most in later Days. I guess those are my some of my weaknesses and strengths.

Being apt in the discussion of politics and philosophy, it's extremely tough if not impossible to come up with a strong position against certain players so early in the game. Day 1's nothing but speculation. Give me something to chew on and watch me go.

[Wake1]

Hey, they say you're supposed to share your honest thoughts and feelings in this game.

I'm sort of scared this is Scum-Titus trying to keep around a perceived weak Town player (I play much better as Scum). Alas, this is nothing but a feeling/fear, so forgive me why don't you?

[Wake1]

So Phok does say it's PR-heavy.

4:9 is too damned unbalance imho.

I expect 3 Scum.

[Wake1]

I ISO'd Wake, and saw this. His vote put him at L1 when he was talking to TSO. If Slandaar hadn't replied so fast and TSO had put a vote on Slandaar, Slandaar would have been lynched.

Fine. I'll VOTE: Slandaar and you'll put him at L1 so he can claim.

Uh, no it didn't.

VOTE: josh_b

[Wake1]

Hm.

UNVOTE: josh_b

[Wake1]

What are the arguments against Elyse and Mirhawk at this point? Day 1's always a shot in the dark, so I have no idea who should be lynched.

Who haven't we been looking at enough?

[Wake1]

*Reveals

Annihilator Beam

*

Slandaar

———✹

Slandaar, would you please provide your latest reads, if any?

———✹

What are your current thoughts on Titus and why should she be lynched today?

———✹

You said you were a Vig. Basic kind, or with restrictions, what?

Mirhawk

———✹

Would you please provide your three top Scumreads, with at least two sentences explaining why?

———✹

Which two players do you least suspect, and what things on them can you find that're Scummy?

———✹

Titus mentioned a Townblock. Is this wise, and do you have experience with Scum-Titus?

[Wake1]

Well, I'll VOTE: Elyse to get a claim. Should a claim be had I'll retract my vote.

Game can be extremely frustrating Elyse. Stock up on Ibuprofen, like I do.

[Wake1]

Alright.

UNVOTE: elyse

[Wake1]

I just want to say that I'm not terrible at this game and I've only been mislynched once, but I can't say anything without being attacked here. I think it's in the towns best interest to get rid of me so they can focus on finding actual scum.

My dear, being mislynched doesn't make you terrible. The point of being an individual Townie isn't to survive, but to

win

.

[Wake1]

I defended Elyse, Titus? No, I didn't.

Where did I feel this sort of manipulation before?

Kdub's GundamSEED Mafia, I believe.

VOTE: Titus

[Wake1]

It's in your best interests if you are town to do so.

If memory serves, this also entails answering questions.

Mirhawk answered 922. You, however, did not.

Why?

[Wake1]

Oh, I must have missed them, I guess I will answer your very important questions for you.

Slandaar, would you please provide your latest reads, if any?

No. You can deduce my general scumreads from my posting.

What are your current thoughts on Titus and why should she be lynched today?

She is scum; see my ISO. Because she is scum.

You said you were a Vig. Basic kind, or with restrictions, what?

I claimed vig. I did not claim X-shot Vig or odd night vig.

To clarify, you're a normal Town Vigilante?

[Wake1]

If Slandaar's what he says he is, let's control hinm like a Serial Killer.

[Wake1]

Wonderful, Titus. Any other plans of yours to captivate and keep us busy?

[Wake1]

If Slandaar's what he says he is, let's control hinm like a Serial Killer.

I've never played with a vig: is it normal to have an outed vig just announced they're going to shoot people whom most people don't want shot? I'm still playing mafia 101 in this regard, but shouldn't vigs just shoot lurkers?

Is slandaar just trying to get a reaction out of me, then yes he got one. It increase my suspicion that he's serial killer and not vig.

Ideally, a Town Vig should shoot whoever's most suspicious to that person.

In Slandaar's case, he claims he's a Vig, but it can't be verified. So, we decide.

Shooting lurkers is bad play, because lurking doesn't necessarily mean Scum.

I've been in various games where Scum claims Vig, or SK claims Vig.

[Wake1]

So much noise and bickering, Quiet down, will you?

What do we have of actual substance so far?

[Wake1]

I cannot in good faith vote Elyse today.

Twice now Titus has lied about what's up on my end, and that's twice too many.

I never defended Elyse, which Titus claimed, and Elyse never even hinted for my lynch, either. Throughout the game Elyse has been neutral about my alignment, while not pressing for my death—I know you know this.

[Wake1]

Funny how Titus' initial

facade

support of me burns away under pressure.

[Wake1]

I cannot in good faith vote Elyse today.

Twice now Titus has lied about what's up on my end, and that's twice too many.

I never defended Elyse, which Titus claimed, and Elyse never even hinted for my lynch, either. Throughout the game Elyse has been neutral about my alignment, while not pressing for my death—I know you know this.

You never posted an Elyse town case, but I still hear that chainsaw.

First of all, I'm neutral regarding Elyse. Do not take an absence of something for proof of something else. Secondly, if you want to talk about a chainsaw defense, you first have to have someone who's defending someone else. If you assume I defend Elyse, note you just now said I never posted a Town case for her. Which is it?

Oh one more thing, lynch me and you'll die. (A) It will be obvious what lies

you

have told.

My death doesn't matter so long as Town wins.

[Wake1]

Boonskiies, please walk us through your thought process here.

[Wake1]

The VC was reset???

[Wake1]

I too always assume 3 Scum in a 13-player game. Better safe than sorry.

[Wake1]

VOTE: Titus

[Wake1]

Are Normal games allowed one unique role?

[Wake1]

The only innocents are bodies.

[Wake1]

If Slandaar gets lynched and flips Town, we're lynching Titus tomorrow.

[Wake1]

I'm not sure who to vote for.

I don't particularly trust Slandaar's Vig claim.

[Wake1]

Ftr, my gut says there's at least one between Slandaar, Reino, and SKOT.

[Wake1]

I've not been given his results.

What does the Wiki say about this?

[Wake1]

Alright, so Reinoe's Scum.

Guys, let's think this over carefully. If I were Scum, I wouldn't have outed myself in the first place. As it is right now Scum would benefit tremendously with the death of the Backup Town Cop.

I am not the older variant. I have not been given his results. Let me live until tomorrow, while the doctor protect me, so I can get an investigation through.

[Wake1]

Exactly what is making me look bad, reinoe? I'm certainly not lying, and I can see quite clearly that you're Scum trying to sacrifice himself to kill the last Town Cop. Gutsy, I'll give you that.

Town, I'll make a deal with you.

We lynch Reinoe tonight.

If he flips Town, you lynch me tomorrow. Assuming I live the Night I'll investigate someone, and make sure the result is stated at the very beginning of the next Day.

Does that sound like a good deal?

[Wake1]

While you're at it, Reinoe, share with everyone exactly what your Scumreads on me are. I call BS on your latest actions.

[Wake1]

Well, do what you want, Town. It's your Cop.

Sometimes being right isn't enough.

[Wake1]

Where is everyone? Come in and post, please.

Reinoe still hasn't responded back as to why I'm such a Scumread to him, which I find Scummy as hell. His entire basis for trying to lynch me is "Oh, well, Backup Town Cop is rare so, let's you know, lynch him." No, that's bad play. When you have someone who claims Backup Town Cop way on, what, Day 1, you don't fuck around with that, especially after the Town Cop dies. To lynch me just because you think it's impractical for a Backup Town Cop to exist is extremely poor play. He has absolutely no good reason to try and lynch me. But he sure does if he's Scum.

Go on, Reinoe, walk us through this. Tell everyone exactly why I deserve to be lynched today.

And SNS, if you're Town, what are you doing? You call reinoe a VI and say you don't want to lynch a Backup Town Cop, you make up a bogus excuse of "Oh, I don't like his response, so I'll toss my vote on him and look innocent." I'm trying to ward off Town making a stupid mistake by lynching a Backup Town Cop. Think about it. Don't you question reinoe's reasoning at all?

[Wake1]

Wait a minute guys, please.

We've got Josh_B and T S O claiming Doc. So if we manage to lynch the liar out of the two, then tonight I'll investigate someone and the real Doc will die protecting me.

Town Doc, if you want that to happen so we have a better chance of winning you have to give it your fucking all convincing me you're innocent.

[Wake1]

Yeah, you don't want to look even more foolish.

Back off and let my investigate someone tonight.

Doc, if you're out there protect my ass.

[Wake1]

I'll do so when I'm damned good and ready to. I have a life to live, and I'm busy as hell. Mafia in general takes a lot of damned time and energy, not to mention all the stuff you have to analyze, cross-reference, and remember. I'll play the game at my own damned pace. So long as I post once every two days I'm good with the game mod's rules, and if you don't like that, tough pickles. I don't demand that you go hunt through a thousand posts to satisfy my own curiosity, either, so no way in hell are you going to...

Forget it. I'm just annoyed at the moment. It sticks in my craw when people try and demand that I play according to their open schedules, especially when other players won't even answer you when you ask them a simple question. Ever asked a guy a question in Mafia and the moron just called you a name and said to check his ISO and not ask him anything? That's the kind of juvenility that gets me angry.

I'll play at my own pace. The way some immature youngsters behave gets under my skin, so forgive me my sudden abrasiveness.

[Wake1]

So, who ti investigate? I assume there's at least two Scum out there.

If Josh is truthful there's a Roleblocker at play.

Which means Doc will be roleblocked and I'll be killed tonight.

[Wake1]

If Josh is lying, and the real Doc is here, make up your mind on what to do. Quietly.

[Wake1]

Damn.

[Wake1]

True.

VOTE: T S O

[Wake1]

UNVOTE: TSO

Why exactly SNS?

Lurking isn't a good enough reason to lynch someone. I've lurked and won as Town many times.

[Wake1]

So only Scum do that?

[Wake1]

The reason I don't trust you is that Mastin says this:

"True scum lurking is basically reading what's going on (generally done offline), seeing how things develop, and then, having seen them develop, posting in a manner to divide rifts between towns."

Which isn't what SNS is doing, from what I can see.

Besides, it's overrated to quote so-called Mafia professionals as canon. Means nothing to me.

[Wake1]

So you're voting SNS for the actions of his predecessor. That's not suspicious.

Perhaps a debate over judging a slot this way is in order elsewhere.

Your reasoning for voting SNS is weak at best, dubious at worst.

I'm beginning to suspect you're Scum.

[Wake1]

So you're voting SNS for the actions of his predecessor. That's not suspicious.

Perhaps a debate over judging a slot this way is in order elsewhere.

Your reasoning for voting SNS is weak at best, dubious at worst.

I'm beginning to suspect you're Scum.

What do you mean elsewhere? Why can't we debate it here in this game? And yes I have to take into account the actions of his predecessor, which I was also scumreading. Now sns, I'm scumreading sns.

You say my reasons are weak ok. Explain how and go into the town motivation of sns posting in other areas of the forum while avoiding this thread.

You know Wake, you suspect everyone who's ever tried to defend. I'm not saying you owe me anything of course, but that's kinda bizarre that you've now twice implied that scum are willing to play against their win condition.

Also didn't you place a naked vote on TSO?

It would be a distraction. We don't want that, correct?

Say his slot is suspicious. Not SNS himself. Same slot, different people.

You fail to note that your definition of lurking is different than Mastin's.

Your positions are weak and Scummy, because they don't make sense to me.

I never said SNS had Town motivation. My contention is you saying he's Scum for lurking, especially when your definition is far different than the definition you quoted from Mastin.

Funny that you bring in my Scumhunting certain players who "defended" me. Not to mention you're wrong. Do you think "defense" of me should be rewarded in a dastardly game of lies and deceit?

I certainly did. It's called gathering reactions. Also known as Scumhunting. You should try it sometime.

You have no reservations about a distracting gameplay debate here.
You judge SNS based on EPM's actions, when you need to refer to the slot instead.
Your definition doesn't mesh with Maston's definition you quoted.
You assume I said SNS had Town motivation for "lurking."
You make an off-topic jab saying I suspect everyone who's ever defended me.

[Wake1]

Oh, I'm still alive.

Don't lynch me tonight. If claimed Doc actually isn't Town Doc, then Town Doc needs to stay quiet, and protect me. I'll decide who I investigate tonight, and may be roleblocked if RB exists.

[Wake1]

*Sigh*

Mirhawk, explanation please.

[Wake1]

That's dumb. You don't lynch a claimed Backup Town Cop who's now the Town Cop.

What you do is let him try to investigate during the next Night, so he can share results.

[Wake1]

If you want to lynch your last Town Cop instead of playing it wise, go ahead.

I'm too busy elsewhere to defend myself against mob mentality in this game, so have at it.

[Wake1]

Voting for me makes no sense.

[Wake1]

Good job guys.

I was actually the Mafia Godfather, and just bullshitting about being the Backup Town Cop. You were wise not slowing down or listening to me guys. Congratulations.

[Wake1]

Oh, so all 3 of you were Scum besides Mirhawk.

Well played.

[Wake1]

SEE, BACKUP TOWN COP DOES EXIST.

FUCKERS.

OK, I feel a little better now.

[Wake1]

Well, fuck it all.

Also, what exactly happened with pacman, please?

[Wake1]

That is pretty crazy in a 13-player game, I think. Scratch one Mafioso and add in a VT or Tracker/Watcher and that'd be swell.

[Wake1]

1624: Which was frustratingly unfair.

[Wake1]

Let's lynch the reviewers.

Can we get a link to the review thread please?

[Wake1]

This game shows why, if you're in a game where it's maybe 2 OR 3 Scum in a team, ALWAYS assume there's 3.

[Wake1]

It was frustrating.

*Am grateful for Phok modding this game.