Mini 1579: The Great Flavor Caper (Game Over)

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Random.org says 7

vote: Jar Jar

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Bacde- it's what I do
I got no problem going that direction when all said and done...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

hmmmm TYR with an outstanding post...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

RVS a serious thing, seriously...

vote JoshB-

add on TYR's outstanding post and this is no brainer.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Mir, just my opinion. It recognizes that state of play and calls out someone for it in an appropriate way.
And it was JB's RVS is serious stuff that drew my vote. HTH, Thanks for caring

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Sharpest tried to slip onto Joshes wagon using yankee's reasoning, and when I called him on it he popped smoke and provided nebulous "reasons". I think he had no actual reason to get on that wagon and was trying to get in on the action because either josh looked vulnerable, or he wanted some separation between the two of them.

heh, that is a load of crap... If I was just using Yankees reason I wouldn't had a vote. I did not like Josh's statement and perspective. Now you are taking something and making A mountain out of piece of sand.
Here are a couple of things for you to realize. I am alien to this culture. My culture day one is filled with schtick and don't take things nearly as serious. Then we run someone up, get a claim, assess, run someone else up, assess. Then eventually lynch someone and move on. Oh, and as to pointing to "nebulous.' Everything at this point is "Nebulous." Here you have a lot of people pretending to take things serious. Some really believe what they say but that ends up with a lot of intermittent reinforcement. I will go back and further illuminate for you what the elements of Yankee's post are that I found profound.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I'll keep it in mind, but it wasn't his RVS that gave him away. There are some other patterns there too that are interesting.

So basically, you pressured me for a link for no reason?

No. I pressured you for the existence of the link, not necessarily the content of the link. But the content of the link suggests that you are still a little sour about that game, and possibly trying to use it to invent scuminess when there isn't much to go on. Until, I feel like there's more likelyhood that what you say is true, or I feel like there isn't anything else to go on, I'll be looking else where and consider you on the block if he flips town.

UNVOTE: UNVOTE

I find it curious that you've taken Bacde's D1 vote on Slandarr so seriously.

It was apparent to me that he was fishing for reactions and the initial argument on Slandarr wouldn't make it past 2-3 pages. Your last sentence also bothers me "...and consider you on the block if he flips town." It seems to me you're giving yourself convenient options for a vote down the line if a Slandarr lynch were to occur.

Breaking down this post. He calls out Josh B for excessive attending to and over reacting to Bacde's play. He is calling out Josh's reaction and able to recognize and voice what Bacde is doing. Then he points out the excessive statement at the end, which by and large as a role of setting up for a push if so and so comes up town with the expectation of same. It is something a bit more substantial then the typical day 1, rvs, post RVS non-sense. Now lets look at Josh's response that drew the vote, shall we. HTH, TIA.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I find it curious that you've taken Bacde's D1 vote on Slandarr so seriously.

It was apparent to me that he was fishing for reactions and the initial argument on Slandarr wouldn't make it past 2-3 pages. Your last sentence also bothers me "...and consider you on the block if he flips town." It seems to me you're giving yourself convenient options for a vote down the line if a Slandarr lynch were to occur.

RVS is a serious thing, I admire the skill of other players who use it as a scum hunting tool. My initial PoE is that Bacde was using it to OMGUS and then asking that I totally trust him. The only thing I feel like I can be sure of right now is that Bacde is not on the scum team with Slandar.
The meta that Bacde provided seems legit if it wasn't so old and out of date, but I'm going to be looking for partners so I moved my vote off for now.

my reaction here was 1st of all to a statement, RVS is a serious thing. That is plain straight hyperbole. Then it is buddying up to those that do take RVS serious. Then he is trying talk like he knows what he is taking about, throwing out a misuses of OMGUS and then qualifying his statement by saying oh, I really don't know anything. So, yup, chalk me up for having nebulous reasons for my response. Thanks for the inquiry Mir. HTH, TIA.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Maybe I'd care a little more if your question hadn't been so inane.

please instruct me Mirhawk, what is inane about asking Josh what patterns he was noting on page 2 of the game that he felt worthwhile making that comment?
Why are you chainsawing Josh?

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

@SharpestI think we've had a breakdown in communication. I was under the impression that the "great post" of yankee's that you were voting because of was post 55. Your vote isn't nearly as bad if its taken in context to post 48.

looking back easy mistake to make and I thought I actually had quoted the post I meant.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Maybe I'd care a little more if your question hadn't been so inane.

please instruct me Mirhawk, what is inane about asking Josh what patterns he was noting on page 2 of the game that he felt worthwhile making that comment?
Why are you chainsawing Josh?

Mirhawk is chainsaw defending Slandaar not Josh. She implies that Reinoe's question was inane, not the question Josh B was supposed to answer.

no he is defending josh... including calling the question of Josh, inane, please try and keep up. His whole vote on me was for my hoping on Josh. I do not see how he is defending Saalandar... guess we read it differently.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

and I have been known to misread things, so it is entirely possible I am seeing wrong

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

SKOT and pacman are the two whose slot's that I'm the most interested in getting a read on right now. Pacman's vote looks really bad, and I was ok with SKOT's vote at first, but he's had plenty of opportunity decide if we just have a different RVS theory. The tone of the game has been set. I've shown mine SKOT, let's see yours.

You have shown jack shit. I have made my point of view clear, which you clearly have not even taken time to read up since you last absence and come in and take a shot. I reacted to your stuff and nothing I have seen makes me comfortable going elsewhere, especially when you think you made your self clear.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

So JB decides to stop pushing players who'll fight back and go right for a lurker.

And what was that non-RVS reason for voting bacde? I don't think I heard you.

@Slandaar
Your thoughts on Elise and Wake?

Umm, I am not a lurker, I do fight back. You pay any attention at all?

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

SKOT and pacman are the two whose slot's that I'm the most interested in getting a read on right now. Pacman's vote looks really bad, and I was ok with SKOT's vote at first, but he's had plenty of opportunity decide if we just have a different RVS theory. The tone of the game has been set. I've shown mine SKOT, let's see yours.

You have shown jack shit. I have made my point of view clear, which you clearly have not even taken time to read up since you last absence and come in and take a shot. I reacted to your stuff and nothing I have seen makes me comfortable going elsewhere, especially when you think you made your self clear.

You think you responded to me when you said that "RVS is a serious thing is a hyperbole"? RVS meta can be used to identify scum, and it sets the tone of the game. It is important to understand that. What is your take on RVS meta? I'm not coming in and taking a shot, that's a bogus claim, I'm asking you a solid question, and all I've gotten an Ad Hominem response.

My vote is not for pressure anymore.

RVS meta is all bullshit and reaction gauging. Sometimes someone can have a legit tell but more times then not it is people looking for something to pick at and doing so. Anyone claiming to find scum on RVS is a bull-shitter. Now, once you gauge reactions to the bullshit then you start finding something worth pursuing. Now, once you got information out there and things start to flip then you can go back and take a look. Get reactions, get votes, get someone runup, assess, rinse, repeat, and so on. What I am used to on a day one is nothing but nonsense and shtick, until a random wagon forms usually on one form of bullshit or another, assess it, lynch or go another direction and so on.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

oh and do go look up ad hominem. saying you haven't explained "jack shit" about your RVS viewpoint is not ad hominem as there is no attack on your Character unlike the frequent draws to statements like VI or anti-town or other such crap. Then I suggested that you have not even read the thread and just come out without even reading what had been written. Again, not an ad hominem attack. So at least if you are going to use argumentation with a suggestion of a use of a fallacy, then do so correctly. Now I will go back and reread you stuff to see if it comes off different as a matter of differences in perspective as you are claiming.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

EPM Id probably the lurker being referred to-

So, Josh, in terms of explaining yourself, what were the interesting patterns you think you saw early on.
Why is it when you say you suck at RVS meta did you try to engage in so doing with your reaction to said events?
Why did you say you were voting more for OMGUS and not the initial push other than your reaction to that being called out?
See I read over your ISO and I still do not get a warm fuzzy...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

oh and the hyperbole was only one thing I listed having issue with, you have not addressed any of the others Josh.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

And I was responding to MIR, not you when I made the statement as to why my vote was not Nebulous.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Oh and I did not make a case, I provided reasons for my vote. They are my reasons and what I was reacting to and you have done nothing to address those concerns which is kinda strange for here.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Were those all of the other things that you had issue with? or is there more?

I have a problem with you excusing me of things I did not say. Sorry, I relooked at your ISO and did not see adequate explanation of any of my points. Then you here come out, point in my direction with a misrep and then back off. Now, sure I can see some elements that might make sense to me. And in that though, your defense was I was just doing what you said. Forgive me if I am not sold.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I'll keep it in mind, but it wasn't his RVS that gave him away. There are some other patterns there too that are interesting.

This does not refer to the "other" game... what pattern was interesting?

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

read the ISO again, no explanation found on any of my stated concerns...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I find it curious that you've taken Bacde's D1 vote on Slandarr so seriously.

It was apparent to me that he was fishing for reactions and the initial argument on Slandarr wouldn't make it past 2-3 pages. Your last sentence also bothers me "...and consider you on the block if he flips town." It seems to me you're giving yourself convenient options for a vote down the line if a Slandarr lynch were to occur.

RVS is a serious thing, I admire the skill of other players who use it as a scum hunting tool. My initial PoE is that Bacde was using it to OMGUS and then asking that I totally trust him. The only thing I feel like I can be sure of right now is that Bacde is not on the scum team with Slandar.
The meta that Bacde provided seems legit if it wasn't so old and out of date, but I'm going to be looking for partners so I moved my vote off for now.

my reaction here was 1st of all to a statement, RVS is a serious thing. That is plain straight hyperbole. Then it is buddying up to those that do take RVS serious. Then he is trying talk like he knows what he is taking about, throwing out a misuses of OMGUS and then qualifying his statement by saying oh, I really don't know anything. So, yup, chalk me up for having nebulous reasons for my response. Thanks for the inquiry Mir. HTH, TIA.

a. the hyperbole
b. buddying up to those taking RVS seriously-
c. trying to give off the appearance that you know stuff but misusing terms (OMGUS and Ad Hominem)
d. over-qualify statement and discounting self
e. Add in avoiding direct questions
f. Claiming to have fully explained things when said explanations are missing.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I'll keep it in mind,

but it wasn't his RVS that gave him away. There are some other patterns there too that are interesting

.

In case it wasn't clear this is what I was referring to, and have been referring to the entire time. So no I don't feel like this issue is particularly resolved

Also, if you feel that me and knives are scum why are you voting slandaar?

I was saying that I think the other game is interesting. Slandaar and Bacde both got lynched in that game. Slandaar didn't get lynched because of his RVS. Slandaar lurked the whole time in that game, but got the hammer on Bacde. Bacde didn't ever hit scum, but he kept making shitty cases and telling everyone that he was spot on, he was even trying to direct people away from voting scum. He tunneled the crap out of town players like a naked mole rat. I wasn't trying to say that the games were related at that time. Bacde makes shitty cases and I'm not going to sheep his ridiculousness on page one.

Scum equals Three, and we can't lynch all three of you at once.

But you did and are currently doing so. I can see how the "there" is undefined and could be in your mind the other game, looking at that on reread. You jumped on something in an over-excessive way. Hey, Bacde making shitty cases goes par for the course around most players around here from what I have seen. This again goes to the "bullshit" factor and add in some moments of variable reinforcement of said perspectives for the times when they do happen to get something right. Now, this statement here is the most sound response you have given so far... answer other elements more directly and will see what transpires.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

and came back barely responding to what was directed at him. It seems like he's trying to make people forget he was scummy rather than explain himself and I don't like it.

Did you direct anything at me? I'm not busy today. I didn't expect to be busy yesterday, but sometimes things come up. And today, I feel like I'm just having to repost everything I already said. But I'm here, so it's good for me to get it out all at once.

BUt you did not say any of that, there is no reposting as you hadn't said any of that at all- I have read over your ISO 5-6 times now.
Since you really are not reading anything you can start with 431 and then 445 and do so directly.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I find it curious that you've taken Bacde's D1 vote on Slandarr so seriously.

It was apparent to me that he was fishing for reactions and the initial argument on Slandarr wouldn't make it past 2-3 pages. Your last sentence also bothers me "...and consider you on the block if he flips town." It seems to me you're giving yourself convenient options for a vote down the line if a Slandarr lynch were to occur.

RVS is a serious thing, I admire the skill of other players who use it as a scum hunting tool. My initial PoE is that Bacde was using it to OMGUS and then asking that I totally trust him. The only thing I feel like I can be sure of right now is that Bacde is not on the scum team with Slandar.
The meta that Bacde provided seems legit if it wasn't so old and out of date, but I'm going to be looking for partners so I moved my vote off for now.

my reaction here was 1st of all to a statement, RVS is a serious thing. That is plain straight hyperbole. Then it is buddying up to those that do take RVS serious. Then he is trying talk like he knows what he is taking about, throwing out a misuses of OMGUS and then qualifying his statement by saying oh, I really don't know anything. So, yup, chalk me up for having nebulous reasons for my response. Thanks for the inquiry Mir. HTH, TIA.

a. the hyperbole
b. buddying up to those taking RVS seriously-
c. trying to give off the appearance that you know stuff but misusing terms (OMGUS and Ad Hominem)
d. over-qualify statement and discounting self
e. Add in avoiding direct questions
f. Claiming to have fully explained things when said explanations are missing.

-My wife say's I have things going on in my head that I don't share, but I assume that everyone already knows anyways. It's a personal fault. I said RVS is a serious thing, when I should have said RVS meta is a serious thing. Meta is a serious thing, and I've learned that RVS meta can be considered separate from game meta, as can lylo, pressure, and L-1 meta. RVS meta is not my forte. I'm better at judging lylo, and pressure. IDGAF who takes RVS seriously, I do. Are you saying that I'm buddying up to Yankee? Is that a claim that he takes RVS seriously(strawman). Are you guys friends and you just know that?
-Oh My God You Suck. I don't don't see how I was using it incorrectly. OMGUS is usually used for voting someone who votes you. In which case it still applies because Slandaar got the hammer on Bacde. Even if you didn't understand that point, I thought that the people that I was talking about would understand it.
-Ad Hom- "You haven't shown jack shit" is an attack on me, and not responding to the question that I asked you. Why do I feel like you are yelling at me?
-Over qualified statements? I don't understand, are you calling me scum for that? I can't explain my personality.
-Please give me more direct questions. I like these. But, I don't always respond directly to the player asking me. Sometimes I answer multiple people in the same post, and hope that everyone reads it.
-Let me ISO myself. I've been a lot busier than I expected the past few days, and I may have had to leave in the middle of writing posts a couple of times. i.e. lost posts.

you cannot OMGUS someone for an action in a past game. That is a revenge vote action, not OMGUS. OMGUS is simply reacting to someone because in the current game they are pushing you. It is tit for tat.

Please read this and get back to me r/t ad hominem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Now you could argue I used rhetoric and made a strong point but strong language and stating that you have not pointed out anything is not ad hominem. I cannot explain your perception of my response. The tone of the "haven't shown jack shit" when you claimed you had shows frustration and I had to go and check several times to see if I missed anything
However, that response makes more sense to me and makes me more comfortable. Was that so hard?

unvote

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Holy crap SKOT you are right. 301-417 I posted nothing. That's shitty. No wonder you are giving me so much hell. I thought that I already posted all of these things that I'm saying. I certainly typed it out.
Also, the hyperbole thing, both posts that you asked me to respond to include that.

more rhetoric than hyperbole, but I use what I know. Where I come from you have pretty much nothing but rhetoric and hyperbole with plenty of ad hominem.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Holy crap SKOT you are right. 301-417 I posted nothing. That's shitty. No wonder you are giving me so much hell. I thought that I already posted all of these things that I'm saying. I certainly typed it out.
Also, the hyperbole thing, both posts that you asked me to respond to include that.

more rhetoric than hyperbole, but I use what I know. Where I come from you have pretty much nothing but rhetoric and hyperbole with plenty of ad hominem.

although looking at it, there may have been some slight exaggeration but not intended, could be close to strawman but it was all my reaction to what I read, which of course was generally opening phase of game. What I can do is dig and get reactions to my satisfaction or simple observe what others do and pull out.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I am sure you read my posts knife and you are going to vote Titus any second.

that may be the next direction to examine...
I dislike the proclamation on little that me and Josh were clearly town.
I hate the day one proclamation of conftown but I do understand that shtick and tact and it is null behavior. I have to look more.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

well the rhetoric is certainly flowing both ways... neither ISO skim gave me any warm fuzzies-

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Yay now we can all sing kumbayah around the campfire!!!!!

That seems exactly like a textbook bad bus.

what does Elyse... that is a statement without defined context (I can certainly be guilty of that as well)

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

vote titus

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I can't be bothered to argue so here is my conftown claim good day.
(translated)

How is that not a claim?

I did read as if you are asking for her to be vigged or to be voted. I did not grasp it was a claim myself until you further clarified. Titus making a mountain out of that does not look good for her.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

That shit is not a claim. That's why. Rather, it looks like an express disavowment of being a vig. He really wants me dead.

I debated ccing Slandaar due to the obvious bs nature of his claim, but I won't. I won't lie to catch scum.

Dude he obviously claimed vig

There are better way to deal with scum lying about bring vig than lynching them outright

How would you recommend handling that then?

Having slandaar shoot someone and dealing with it tomorrow

And if slandaar is SK?

WIO-

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

vote: Titus-

Now I know you know better than that...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Yes. His claim is bullshit.

you counter claiming vig?

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Knives case is built out of moonbeams. I've only ever asked you one question, and you still haven't answered it to my satisfaction.

I did not have a case, I reacted and had areas of concern that led to vote. I don't play the "build a case" outta nothing. I see something, I may or may not explain and then see where things go. I gave the details because you said my vote was nebulous and votes have an obsession over knowing why folks react with votes. I pressed him till I felt comfortable with responses. If I had not I would not move my vote.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Bacde- scum or derp lets find out

Vote bacde

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Someone get the Wiki editors here, we have the most perfect example of OMGUS you'll ever find!

And? OMGUS is null...
always can count on your for a derp response... some things are consistent.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

And here is the element that is not OMGUS. After proceeding to push one runup, he looks over the field and does no real examination of responses. Rather, he picks someone that feels may be someone that can be pushed easily.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Titus remains horrid... you are better than that, TSO is not.

vote Titus

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Titus remains horrid... you are better than that, TSO is not.

vote Titus

oh god, that's it.

I would love to rant about how fucking terrible you yourself are, I really would. You'll notice I used to constantly point out the ways in which you were so marvellously wrong and hope you would change it, but I've stopped doing it because I've concluded you're genuinely that shit.

I mean the experience I've been having when you're playing with me is beyond fucking horrible. You always start off by using Random.org to vote which completely makes RVS redundant and allows scum to hide behind -correctly- accusing you. You openly commit scumtells/badtells and explain them away with rubbish like "My home site is not mafiascum, therefore I may do whatever retarded action I like and it's cool, guys!" or some other bull like "OMGUS is null! Null, not scum! I can do it!". No, you can't, because OMGUS is BAD. A lot of the guys in this game I like; Bacde's a cool guy, I've enjoyed seeing reinoe mature from the Newbie game I played with him, Titus is always interesting, but if I were in possession of a daykill, I would have nuked you upon sight, because you're literally the definition of anti-town. When you post, it's either fluffy bullshit or bullshit vaguely resembling incoherent content. When you post, that is, because as well as being bad, you're also a lurksack.

I actually tried to be nice about it, I concluded not everyone is in full command of their mental faculties and, hey, we can't all be Empire/chamber/Tierce/Thor/Nacho, whatever. But after I made the effort to start being nice, and not point out the glaring play flaws you exhibit like you're proud of them, then you call me bad? This isn't pot-kettle, this is like Hitler calling mith a dictator. It's deranged. I mean, even your fucking NAME. It's like a toddler won a "Design-A-Name" contest for your username.

Please. Do not talk to me again. Do not try to interact with me, because this has been building up and you have no idea how batshit your "play", if you could call it play, annoys me.

[/rantover]

Note, I don't give a fuck what you think. You put yourself out as an arrogant, know it all, piece of shit and I have yet to see you be right about anything. You have your little cubby hole of categories which have really nothing to do with finding scum and everything to do with "Group think" and confirm bias. I have flaws, you have flaws, we all have flaws. We do what we do. Now you claim you were nice this game but engage in petty nit picky nonsense and just clearly have a get ride of SKOT mindset. OH, and dipshit, this name was always meant as sarcastic. You have not been nice to me one minute. I guess you call passive aggressive comments meant to belittle and your continual ad hominem attacks to be nice, hey, keep at it.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

unvote

- I am thinking now that Titus is just stubborn.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

@SKOT/TSO -- Talk to other people. Your shitfest is getting nowhere and it's not revealing alignment for anyone

I had to reply to that massive personal attack. TSO can do whatever he does, which will be to continue to call for my head regardless because that is how he roles.
I am taking a look at things to find a direction to go now.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

unvote

- I am thinking now that Titus is just stubborn.

Look up stubborn. There's a picture of Town!Titus and Scum!Titus, albeit the scum picture is a little smaller.

discounting my reason for changing vote, I can always revote you...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

having a fundamental understanding that to play Mafia you do not do certain things,

see it is this statement that address basic philosophical differences. You have a mindset of a certain set of behaviors. You attack anyone who waivers from your preconceived ideas and expectations. Ad Hominem attacks become the central core of the engagement. It reinforces group think and gets reinforced by the times when someone actually does not match up to your behavior checklist. It does very little to really find town or scum and simply sets up reasons to run someone up, get a flip and make adjustments. So, no I do not cater to attempts to bully me into a line of reasoning which has no merit or basis. Now admittedly, I get way more aggressive around here because of the sense of some of the dynamics. You can say I lurk all I want, but I am active in games and always observing. I skim way more then I lurk. Here is the thing, if reality was such that "town" always engaged in certain behaviors and scum did not then the game would be easy. Human interactions are far more complex than that. And I am not surprised at your anger TSO. It is predictable. But, please do not call your engaging in passive aggressive shots being nice, it is not. Note that you exploded when I took a passive aggressive shot. I am sorry for doing so and predictably you exploded. My apologies. Now can we get past this essential personality differences and differences in philosophy and find away to come together to eliminate scum?

I think there is likely to be scum on both run ups to claim.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

But this isn't groupthink; I've READ 1984. These are things you shouldn't do because they're reactions which are predominantly formed from a scum mindset and, as such, come from scum more often than town. I do not expect everyone to fit to these, as groupthink does; I'm exceptionally tolerant with newer players who are finding the ropes, etc.

The problem here is that you see these behaviours as limiting, while I do not; they have worked time and again for me to find scum and for nearly everyone on this site. I do not understand how your scumhunting works; I don't see it improves on my beliefs, therefore I have a problem with it.

This is called denial. You have a defined set of behaviors. You seek to "shape" new players into following the set of behaviors. I have played at many different places other than home site. This is the only place that you will find the kind of reaction that you are describing, even with those from a "mafia-centric" learning of the game. So you shape new players into the line of thinking until the get it. Your last couple of sentences explain the core differences. Now I understand that you do not understand what I do. I know it bugs you. I am sorry, I cannot do differently than what I do. Sure, there are things that I can learn, that can better me. It is not however, line up a set of behavioral expectations. You claim that "scum mindset" only produces certain reactions. Now, there are certain things than can be indicative of being evasive and certain things not. Each person and individual is different. Now as to working, take a good look back at who you push based on said mindset. You will find a lot of mislynch and occasional flipping over scum. Now, that is going to be true as to any technique as people are not static nor as predictable as you would think and a lot of variable reinforcement does occur.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Vigs are town.

Is this true for MS.net? I've been on the site since Feb, and this is the first time I've been in a game where I actually thought a vig was an actual possibility. Where I come from (debate.org) Vigilante is almost always a TP role, or a fake scum claim. In a 12 player game like this, a town vig would sway the game heavily in town's favor, and I just haven't seen that from MS.net. From what I have seen, there's more likely to be a shit ton of VT's. Which actually makes slandaar's role claim seem like BS, so I'm not liking you defending him over it.

But if someone who has been here longer than me thinks Slandaar is a TOWN vig, and not a third party, or scum. I want to hear it.

seriously, there is a place out there where scum claim vig... now I have heard everything.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Vigs are town.

Is this true for MS.net? I've been on the site since Feb, and this is the first time I've been in a game where I actually thought a vig was an actual possibility. Where I come from (debate.org) Vigilante is almost always a TP role, or a fake scum claim. In a 12 player game like this, a town vig would sway the game heavily in town's favor, and I just haven't seen that from MS.net. From what I have seen, there's more likely to be a shit ton of VT's. Which actually makes slandaar's role claim seem like BS, so I'm not liking you defending him over it.

But if someone who has been here longer than me thinks Slandaar is a TOWN vig, and not a third party, or scum. I want to hear it.

seriously, there is a place out there where scum claim vig... now I have heard everything.

I'd do it as a goon and assuming arguendo the only way I'd get off is claiming a PR. One more night without a scum lynch is good for the scumteam. SKOT, assume anything that has any positive utility is on the table for scum.

it is often done by SK but if it is done as scum it is to buy a day at most. Now being done when no idea if there is a vig is odd. Just doesn't really happen much and usually would work itself out if it was a fake claim. The +EV for the move is limited and it is a high risk gambit. Now I have seen it for serial killer. Where I come from there is a limited "low flyer" "Lurker" specific vigs and seen SK's claim that but usually not a team scum. In fact I cannot think of really any times that was tried.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Waffled?

Isn't it analysis when you break things down and try to interpret and explain things?

Hm... Is that you, Scum-Titus?

I actually agree with Titus. That was a lot of blah blah blah for saying, um, null with scum lean.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

In time, Titus.

Why the eagerness?

When you fencesit, it makes you really hard to read. Your early stuff was pretty town, but I had somethings wrong probably (I doubt both Slandaar and Bacde are not town, although one may still be). I need something from you that takes a stance to read you.

Because we have no workable knowledge Day 1, I'm comfortable not rushing to take a side, while asking questions and providing detailed analyses. You may not know this, but I was preparing to ask some questions, too. While being read as Town doesn't hurt, I care more about providing my own reads while hunting down Scum.

so then you are saying you did something to give the appearance of doing something...

vote wake.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

wait a minute

I now have no scumreads

shit!

TSO, thanks for the laugh... If I were drinking something it woulda been up the nose...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

No. I'm saying that I don't care that much to appear obvTown, because that is what Scum does. I think it would help if you'd read my posts.

I have read posts, you apparently got obsessed and in a piss off with Bacde over the use of word manipulation...
you had one post where you spent time detailing a case on chaoslord. You comment that your curiosity was peaked and you cannot stop once you been peaked. You then preceded to go into lurk-a-derp mode. You come back, see the Evil packman vote and then post an OMGUS but not really post appearing to provide EPM analysis which really ends up saying nothing. An OMGUS engagement woulda been far more honest IMO, but I am an alien, so there is that.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

No. I'm saying that I don't care that much to appear obvTown, because that is what Scum does. I think it would help if you'd read my posts.

I have read posts, you apparently got obsessed and in a piss off with Bacde over the use of word manipulation...
you had one post where you spent time detailing a case on chaoslord. You comment that your curiosity was peaked and you cannot stop once you been peaked. You then preceded to go into lurk-a-derp mode. You come back, see the Evil packman vote and then post an OMGUS but not really post appearing to provide EPM analysis which really ends up saying nothing. An OMGUS engagement woulda been far more honest IMO, but I am an alien, so there is that.

Now, if you were using those eyeballs of yours, you'd know I was asking questions to get responses. You do know people do that in Mafia, I trust. What you try to say is obsessions is actually grabbing at loose threads and slowly pulling them until my curiosity is satisfied. If you're a Townie, that shouldn't bother you, right?

And if you were thoughtful, you would consider why I may have been absent. Besides, lurking is when you're online but not posting. I simply wasn't online for long periods of time. Not tell me again, was I lurking, or are you lying? I await your answer. Furthermore, if you were utilizing your consciousness effectively, it would have occurred to you that I'm creating large, individual analyses of every player here. Not just pacman. I think—and I don't mean to be rude—you should think more before you post. I mean, someone could think you're Scummy.

people think I am scummy here all the time. I cannot change who I am because others do not understand me. And why would I assume anything about your behavior as this is 1st game in together. The reference was for stating you were curious, disappearing, and then not pulling at same thread. I understand reaction fishing but your engagement has appearances. I have no idea where you were, just the lack of engagement as you read through your ISO after making a proclamation of pulling a thread and going to no where. Now, report of modding a game elsewhere explains the behavior. It has no bearing on your alignment as folks use reality all the time.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

oh and pulling at a thread, wake, doesn't bother me. The saying you are pulling at a thread and then disappearing and disengaging it altogether.

fine, if I misuse the lurk-a-derp term I will just use my language. You went full board low flying after saying you were curious and engaged.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Sorry guys for my long absence. I went to Hampton beach with family on Friday and planned to come back Sunday but ended up staying an extra day.

I'm going to do an extensive re-read and give a big post.

Once again I apologize for being inactive.

Overapology. Apologizing twice in one post for the same thing = scum indication.

that would figure, a person I saw as having a great post early own being scum in the long run... hmm, maybe I should factor that...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

SKOT, I wasn't "flying" at all because I was offline. That's not flying. That's parked.

I said I was using my language. Low flying is anyone that is not engaged. People who post little. We have low flying vig roles assigned at times. Of course days are at most 2 days or 3 days if it is a real tough day, not counting weekends. So, you can correct me on MS language all the time but if I am using terms from my culture, the term is what it is.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

really, wake, I have now read over your ISO several times. Not much there. what pray tell should people see in your posts.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I probably shouldn't, but I'm a bit close to just claiming my role right now. Not such if I'm being deliberately antagonized, or if people are deliberately being dense. It is frustrating, though.

clearly you are hinting at leaving a crumb somewhere that no one clearly gets, so while you think you are clear, it is not, if it is there.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

unvote

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

all the claims are things that will work out. Doc claims on day one are eye brow raising but no reason to push it. No reason for a mass claim either, imo

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

that was my thinking earlier and posted in wrong fricking thread. If colks want to mas claim that is okay.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

vote pacman...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

anyway SKOT what's up with that?

it's a vote, for now, not to hard to recognize that

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Upon catching up, Wake is come off genuine.
I see someone posted the reminder from sign up. Lots of PR and somewhat swingy game.
I see all the claimed roles as work itself out and no need to play "hero" at this juncture. If any of them are scum it will be worked out.

Right now I have Titus and Reinoe as town. I had been uncertain of R at first but now leaning town.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

vote: Elyse

other suspects to me
Bacde
TSO

null EPM, Mirhawk, chaos, TYR

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

there was no need for a prod. I have seen no reason to change and been active in thread. Guess I hadn't posted anything specific.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

A quick recap of the game:
Beginning: A Lot of lurkers, and town bickering with one another.
Middle: Town agrees to lynch Elyse. Lurkers suddenly become active, and start tunneling on Titus.
Now: Tunneling on Titus continues.

Results: Elyse Lynch becomes a high information D1 lynch. Unfortunately, bickering continues. If you are town, get on this wagon and stop BSing.

I agree with this

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Are you giving any thought to voting for Titus?

no, I am not

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

evrything since my lost post has been blah blah blah.
I will not support mass claim
I will not support lynch of a current claimed PR
I will not support a Titus runup or lynch
Right now the only other direction I might consider would be TSO or any of the ones who put out a "VT" claim in a game with "Lots of PR and is swingy"
those not recognizing that fact, including you Elyse concern me.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

a run up of titus may or may not bring another PR claim. I see no need to go that direction at this point.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

the best way to get through this day is to lynch Elyse or EPM. They have both claimed VT and see no reason for further runups.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Please stop focusing on the claiming aspect and start focusing on who is scum and who is town.

Why is Titus town/why am I scum?

I don't know if either of you are town or scum. I see no value in further run ups.
The +EV move at this point is to finish off a VT claim and let everything else work itself out. This is how I play. Period. We have suffient claims. No need for more. Get information and flip a VT claim and move ahead.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

How is that +EV if all the VT claims are town?

VT, town claims, claims without any verification are a risk. There has been nothing in her engagement that I take as town. Those claims need to be paired down, especially in a game with "lots of PR and swingy." Now some claims are believable and tighten things down on scum. How I play and where we come from is most such claims are not left to sit around. If they are left around then considred vig bait. And actually I am less hard core on that then others where I play. It would remain a liability without a flip.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

How is that +EV if all the VT claims are town?

how do you know any VT is town. You do not, you know they claim town. You can make a judgement about whether you believe they are what they claim.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

So if I didn't claim you would be open to voting for Titus?

And you don't have an opinion on my alignment but are voting me to prevent another run-up?

What kind of backwards logic is that?

the style that comes from www.footballguys.com and www.packmentality.net...
and no I would not be open to titus, as I believe Titus is town at the moment. I do not like a titus runup. If no one had claimed VT then I would be looking at who I felt was most scummy.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Day 1 continues, vote count has been reset.

Vote Count 1.42

Not Voting: Josh_B, Slandaar, Bacde, Sharpest-knife-on-tree, evilpacman18, chaoslord54, Titus, T S O, reinoe, Elyse, Boonskiies, Wake88, Mirhawk

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline in (expired on 2014-06-25 16:00:00)

wtf?

vote Elyse

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I disagree with the conclusions and the current vote swing. Although a bulletproof or extra life scum would explain a vig claim from scum. Not going there yet. Sticking with Elyse vote unless folks want to switch to EPM.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

1286 is not good, TSO. What are you doing? You've been saying I was town this whole time. I didn't "slip" and Josh and SKOT are still butthurt over me saying they were bussing and are now refusing to work with me. I need more votes on Titus and I asked Mirhawk because he said she's not an option because there wasn't support. There clearly is and maybe Mirhawk is interested in the Titus wagon.

huh, I have no thought in my mind about any comment about bussing and do not even recall it. I have made my position clear.
I do not want a Titus run up at this point. I do not want anyone else run up. I see no need to runup a PR claim. So that leave you or EPM. You are basically engaging in AtoE defense with a passive aggressive shot by that comment.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

And trust me this VC reset thing makes no sense to me either and when I flip VT you guys will be just as lost as you are now.

um, no, if you flip VT, that is one piece of information that the rest then that can in turn further more understanding and enable narrowing down on scum.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

@SKOT
I was talking about Josh B.

well if you are only talking about Josh B you would not have said Josh B & SKOT

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I didn't "slip" and Josh and SKOT are still butthurt over me saying they were bussing and are now refusing to work with me.

Else you may be done with me but if you were only talking about Josh B why is there the "and SKOT"
TIA...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

VOTE: Boon

The conclusion I came to last night was: Titus had to die.

Who did you protect Josh?

seriously, Titus was clear town...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

VOTE: Boon

The conclusion I came to last night was: Titus had to die.

Who did you protect Josh?

and unless there is something amiss with me, Boon is town all day.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

vote saalndar...

self protective vig shot...
don't like it at all... time to go.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Of course you had to kill someone who softclaimed cop.

VOTE: slandaar

Uh, she wasn't a cop and that was blindingly obvious as I posted yesterday;

Oh and obviously the reason she is doing the COP or VT is to try to prevent me shooting her tonight. She isn't a cop, if she were she would claim VT if she didn't want to lynch in the PR's because the effect is the same but reduces her death rate from scum kills (but highly ups it from me)

vote saalndar...

self protective vig shot...
don't like it at all... time to go.

I shot my top scumread... who did you expect me to shoot? (give a list) My list was pretty clear.

bullshit... you took out someone who was calling you out.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

FYI- where I come from VT claims often cleaned up or a vig holds it. You know damn well Titus was the main one calling BS to your claim. Stop pretending otherwise.
you want a list-
boon-town
renioe-probably town, he could be fooling me though but titus thought town.


Claimed
JD-doc, still alive
Wake-back up cop
EPM/SNS town
Slaandar-claimed vig, probably scum

probably scum if all is as above
TSO
chaos
Mir

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I shot my top scumread... who did you expect me to shoot? (give a list) My list was pretty clear.

Nobody since the town was split on her, and she was a high target for cop investigation, much like yourself...

You expected me to shoot nobody? um, no... then what happens is I get lynched for not verifying my claim. I made the list clear no cop should have targeted her.

you just in self protective BS, you need to go...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

You will need to explain this.

okay, fine since we have so many claims out there and folks want a mass claim.
I am the cop. Boon is town unless there is something swingy
I had reaction gauged Titus town and made it clear my thinking. All though good thing you shot titus as I glossed over your wanting to kill boon.

BS on vig being needed for balance. But hell, lets get all the claims out there.
I would like the claims in order of
TSO
Mir
chaos
reinoe

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Fact is Titus was the second strongest wagon at the end of day yesterday. Only reason I didn't shoot boon is I was sure she was scum and going to be much harder to lynch...

Lynch Boon today, saying Elyse had been revealed to be town before the flip is pretty much a done deal.

No, lynch you and fucking mass claim. You want to lynch a cop view...

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

My claim is verified and

the setup needs my role to be remotely balanced.

I'm a serial killer, that's how I know how this game is balanced.

ftfy

exactly

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

also I appreciate Titus's game play a lot- loved that scum shot bacde

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

Titus was not undeniably town.

I am not being leashed when yesterday the majority of the town wanted to lynch Elyse who was actually undeniably town. I would have if I had been wrong but even then if you were expecting me to shoot from some imaginary 'leash list' you should have probably come up with one.

right you aren't being leased you will be lynched as most likely SK... unless a mass claim brings a higher priority. you are only going to do damage to town even if you are as claimed based on your behavior.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

I'm just catching up on this. I protected Bacde. I thought he was the cop. Plus, if he died anyways, it would prove that Mafia has a roleblocker. Titus was undeniably Town.
His VT or Cop claim, indicated that he wasn't going to go along with the mass, out the PR's business that Pacman was playing. It was probably the towniest thing he could have done.
Slandaar, you shooting Titus says that you won't be leashed, and that you are shooting towniest players.
SKOT can you explain your read on Pacman? He seemed to be really sure that Elyse wasn't scum, and was pressing really hard for a Titus Kill.

VOTE: Slandaar

Sorry guys about Elyse. I really thought she was scum.

no I cannot, and my read could be wrong, the closest thing I can say is, the play here did not resemble the one game he was scum in that I played as PB. anything else I cannot comment.

[Sharpest-knife-on-tree]

This was quite a fun game to follow. I definitely had Josh_B down as scum early in the game, but didn't come around to reinoe until much later. At that point I stopped following.

An outsider was following the game? I'm flattered. What gave me away?

eh, I suspected you but titus cleared you and I was dead before I could examine anything further.
No doc existing hurt the way the game played. I shoulda kept trap shut.