Mini 1585: Muskoka Murder Mystery - Game Over

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/confirm.

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Vote: evilpacman13

because DAT GURL IZ LATE.

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Well, those reads are via random.org, but if I must defend myself:

1. No one has seen me eat any cookies since February 23rd, 2014.
2. My fingerprints aren't on the cookie jar.
3. Crumbs freak me out, so why would I eat a cookie?

seems like startfromtheheart's methods are whack.

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I would actually like to warn everyone about my meta; I seriously cannot remember the last time I completed a stay in a game, regardless of alignment or how I was killed. Sorry my meta isn't very fruitful! I hope I can change my streak with this game though.

Broodking, do you do this useful meta survey for every game? If not, why are you dioing it for this game among others?

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Generally with miller claims I'm chill; it's much more likely their telling the truth than being a scum who has decided that will be the ruse for this game. I like reinoe's idea of leaving it aside until later days.

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Hi y'all. I like to do walls, and this post is likely to be one, so you're warned.

Post 6: I'm curious to know startfromtheheart's motivation for posting completely random reads. To me, it seems like a way to creation "suspicion" when people would just be reacting to them out of emotion or fury, especially when they are so conspicuously broadcasted as random.

Post 29: I could be super reading into this but Aeneinen's "Don't lynch a vegetarian!" line feels desperately and inappropriately afraid of a lynch at that point in the game.

Post 36: don_johnson, what exactly makes a forced RVS vote suspicious? I would agree that Boonskiies vote could be considered forced, but I'm not making the link.

In the same paranoid vein as my feelings toward Post 29, I'm wary of Broodking's 44. I guess y'all may think I'm taking RVS jokes to serioiusly, but I feel like those early lines could hide subconscious nervousness on the part of scum.

Post 68: I don't know if Broodking's "meta research" is the result of a new/rarely-playing playerlist or lacklustre effort.

Post 79: I don't like how Broodking outlines the town and scum motivations of Boonskiies' question, only to fire near the same question back at him without really answering it. Of course, Boonskiies responds soon after saying he has no reads himself, which makes his initial queston sketch.

The Boonskiies wagon discussion is perplexing, because I think it's moreso a "wagon" because it's the biggest group of votes on the same person we had seen so far, when really few of the votes had correlation and thus it didn't make sense. Thus I agree with Konowa's 108 in that Boonskiies may have committed a "why me fry me" in 64. reinoe's insistence that there is a scum on this wagon feels very forensic science to me, like he's getting out his microscope to examine the "crime scene" of the Boonskiies wagon when it's unlikely such a crime has happened.

Post 194: what? wait, did reinoe just 180 on his whole "conf town" for Konowa's miller claim? And I don't believe he's followed through with the meta research on whatever wagon he thought existed, unless that is represented by his vote on Konowa.

unvote, vote: reinoe

I agree that the miller claim should be left alone for a bit; however, to see him completely turn tail on it along with his approach to the votes on Boonskiies smells real fishy to me.
Boonskiies siding with him is also suspicious, but it's almost too good to be true that they would both be scum, and I'm more confident with a reinoe vote.

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Post 216: reinoe, even if you find Konowa's recent actions scummy, shouldn't you still want to do your meta research to cement even more evidence against him? It seems like you are trying to wiggle out of something if you aren't doing it now.

Post 226: I don't like how reinoe refers to Konowa as a "negative utility town slot" due to his miller claim. First off, it's silly to say such a pessimistic thing; if Konowa is a miller as I believe him to be, then I think he did the right thing by claiming immediately in an attempt to settle the miller matter as cleanly as possible, and be able to participate in scumhunting as efficiently as possible. Obviously, past pages show that this has been muddied up. Second to reinoe's comment, anyway, is that he seems very certain in calling Konowa such, and I think this coincides with another point where reinoe is very confident that Konowa is a miller (though I have more to say on that which may refute this point a bit lol)

Post 235: Antihero, your list is cute and all but I would like reasons, because right now it looks like you picked the 4 players with the lowest post count plus Bert and Broodking.

Post 251: Ah yes. Guyett brings up the fact that reinoe seems certain about Konowa's millerness, but let's think this logically: what sort of role, especially normal, would know that another player was a miller? I guess he could assume that scum-reinoe would think that Konowa wasn't lying, but that doesn't feel certain enough to me. This also kind of loosens my earlier point about reinoe's absolutes; maybe that's just his speaking style? I still like my vote on him for reasons other than this.

Post 258: Antihero what do you mean by "shotgunned"
Post 262: Oops nevermind you defined this later. I think you're wrong, but you could try to sway me by showing people why it's "terrible" and then comparing it to the much better posting elsewhere in this game

Post 269: I don't like how Guyett rectifies that any VCA may have to wait; it seems to simply push aside the fact that my lynch at this point in the game would be based on weak evidence and thus nearly everyone on it would be worthy of critique. Feels lazy.

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Post 315: Antihero, sure, but I don't get how you personally plan to convince anyone else why I'm scummy if you don't articulate it in a matter other than "Chevre is scum because of this claim" and then not provide much evidence.
Post 316: Explain what you mean by this; I don't understand.
Post 317: I give post numbers, and try to format it so that who I'm addressing is obvious. I don't really care for the one-or-two line posts that make up the majority of yours and other players in this game, even if both ways can get the same information across.

Post 318: Boonskiies, explain why you are voting me, please.
Post 321: Why are you on my wagon if you don't want me to be lynched eventually, or even get to L-1? I could see you thinking that this is twisting your words, so if that is the case, what are your intentions with this post?

Post 322: My mistake. I had no idea of this term.

I don't know how to defend against these claims that I'm parroting or rehashing because I feel like I am clearly not? It just seems like that is an easy statement to make and everyone is throwing it against me without pointing out solid examples.

Post 330: This post is bad. don_johnson literally selected the two players with the lowest post count without any obvious regard for the content of my posts. Why ask me and chaoslord to "talk" when you're only loosely following the game, and one of the people you can't remember posting posted less than a page ago?

oh oops I see that Antihero has posted something to this effect later on so I guess I"m just rehashing now, definitely not coming to the same conclusions by myself, no way no sir

Post 349: "I have no reason to look into Chevre from my PoV" is an awful thing for any player in this game to say when I have the leading wagon and it is nearing lynch. It's like blatantly stating that he has no qualms about letting a mislynch just keep rolling along, without consulting anything about the lynched player's case. But then he's also asking for the case on me? These two ideas don't tessellate smoothly.

Post 353: Aneinen, that's definitely true, but from my point of view I know it's coming from a town perspective, obviously. It's somewhat flippant, but my jokes are impervious to my paranoid joke-dar because I know they can't have scum motivation. Anyone else could scrutinize them though; nevertheless, the joke thing honestly feels a bit useless right now because it is so speculative.

Post 362: I really don't like how don_johnson was all like "it's my playstyle, I mean, look at my record" as a way of defending why his playstyle isn't scummy, especially when that same playstyle has apparently won him a greater ratio of scum games than town games. And then he states that he will look at what I'm all about, which is sort of against this whole idea he's been? Essentially my mind is wrestling with the fact as to whether don_johnson is staunchly wrapped up in this anti-town playstyle or if the play itself indicates scumminess. I think ultimately I would be fine with both his and reinoe's lynches today.

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Post 365: don_johnson, you have misunderstood my question, because I am not the party whom I am concerned about listening, obviously; I'm referring to you blatantly saying that you are loosely skimming the game. Why bother asking questions and trying to motivate us to talk to you if you're not listening? And what I said about your playstyle makes perfect sense; unless you do have noticeable changes in your meta between factions, your playstyle "works" regardless of whether you are town or scum, so it should by no means make you seem more town. For your final quote from me, I question it because it seems contradictory; you say you are using your playstyle yet you are planning to break from it to look at me. Even if it is by Antihero's request, it's out of place because you've been stubbornly defending your playstyle for your last few posts, so it concerns me.

Post 368: Aneninen, did my answer to your question make any impact? I'm curious as to why you wanted it so badly if it is a done and shelved matter.

Post 381: Bert what do you mean by this. I don't see any way in which my title holds relevance to the matters of this game so far.

Post 391: doy

Post 397: I bring up this Vote Count Post because I think it's interesting how my wagon sort of built up, with little to no evidence other than "his wall posts are fluffy and rehash" without any clear examples, it faced little to no resistance besides mere apathy, and now has seemed to dissolve away. That wagon on me is fishy as can be but the suspicion isn't even limited to the voters on it because people like don_johnson and evilpacman18 seem to care none whatsoever.

I'm sorry but don_johnson preaching about his playstyle and then being all "yup guys I want

this

voting block okay?" is hilarious and lacking self-awareness

Post 415: Bert, I'm curious--if you don't understand the wagon on evilpacman18, did you understand the wagon on me; if so, in what specific ways?

And in current events, I find it strange that Antihero took on what felt to me like a "leader of the mob" role and is now melting down over don_johnson's criticism? Are you seriously that torn up by it Antihero?

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Sorry, I slacked and took a day off.

Post 434: Aneninen, I just pick whatever I feel needs responding to. Do you suggest something else? I ask seriously, because my education of how to play here has been rough even though I've been here many years.

Post 436: Antihero, I think you can "unintentionally" AtE. the parenthetical reference near the end of this post, 436, for example. You obviously wanted us to be reminded of your emotional crackage and take that into account when judging you. I don't think AtE is scummy because any player is liable to get emotionally invested and their feelings hurt, but I'm confused as to why you've put yourself in such a conspicuous role of leadership if you're so susceptible to breaking down. Maybe it's more psychological than it's worth getting into for the purposes of this game.

Posts 425, 438, and 470 from Aneninen; the emotion feels forced to me. Like he's scum and everyone around him is cracking and he's trying to insert himself into a mediator's position.

Post 447: Antihero's "1v1" comment is super perplexing, considering that no one is voting him, or barely suspecting him at all? But if he's scum it'd have to be some bizarre bussing situation where once the "1v1" leads to epm's lynch he'll be vindicated in the eyes of town--but he's seen as pretty town by so many already?

Unvote, vote Boonskiies

That reinoe vote, while I'm not entirely discrediting it, feels wrong. Meanwhile, I was looking through the players, because it feels like 75% have fallen victim to the noise of the other 25%, but Boonskiies' ISO is incredibly scummy.

A: Post 64 has a "why me fry me" which is especially unnecessary given that he later acknowledges in 87 that this wagon was little to worry about, and uses this to suspect Konowa
B: Post 201 is blatant newb card
C: Post 318 and 321, joins my wagon while adding no additional reasoning, then in 321 seems to get nervous about me getting quickwagon-lynched
D: Post 416, 421, 460, which are three promises to contribute in a row.

It feels like Boonskiies is newbie scum to me.

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OK, I am a vanilla town, but if this is my last post I need to make it count for town's sake, so I'm going to comb through the game once more and see what I root up, with a summary of everyone at the end. It's going to be a wall I think, and you can call it parroting, rehashing, whatever, but these are my thoughts of the game so far.

6: Given startfromtheheart's play throughout the game, I'm now extra wary of this random.org "read list". Given his playstyle it seems like an excellent way to stir up drama which he would be able to steer relatively clear of.

24: Misaka Network's reaction to the miller claim feels right to me.

64: I didn't notice this before because I merely ISO'd Boonskiies but this post follows right after the third vote on his "wagon" from Misaka. I also noticed that once I turned my attention to him he turned up immediately to defend himself but post none of the promised content.

74: This strikes me really weird. I was going to note it because we have now seen BroodKing himself require prodding, but then I reread this and realized that he already says "if your active lurking, I won't hesitate to try and lynch you...but I lurk sometimes too."

79: I still don't like BroodKing here. Like 74, it's contradictory; he accuses Boon's asking for reads of being suspicious yet does the same without providing any of his own reads.

87: Has anyone acknowledged how fudged Boon's reasoning for suspecting Konowa's vote on him while disregarding Misaka's? The two votes are identical in that they don't provide any reasoning, but Boon treats them entirely differently. He asks Konowa to explain, but essentially provides reasons as to why Misaka may have voted him. I think it's a bit suspicious but also a definite link should one of them turn up scum, considering Boonskiie's newbieness.
88: I know this post is mentioned later as evidence to show why Boon is newb town rather than newb scum but it doesn't really do anything for me. I think newb scum is just as capable of that confusion.

126 and 130: I still think these are super fishy. The first is screaming, "look at me! I'm doing something " and the second, as Guyett notes, is just a strange treatment of an RVS vote for so far in the game.

150: Guyett's response to Antihero is suspicious, instead of denying Antihero's blatant claim that he is scum, he just sort of asks to explain it, as though he's scum who is disappointed and a bit amazed by Antihero's investigative powers.

188: don_johnson's reasons for suspecting Konowa's miller claim seem farfetched to me. The first is one is circumstantial, and I'm not sure what the second even means. What exactly is proper "follow-up" to a miller claim?

The "suspicion" that formed on me on Page 8 is really strange and out of place. I'm not even remotely sure where any of the suspicion came from, given I hadn't really delved into the game at all at that point, in my opinion.

260: Not that I necessarily want to bring the game back full circle to miller claim discussion, but this post reminds me that there seem to be warring interpretations of what to do in the event of such a claim. Antihero calls it null and says to disregard it completely, and Guyett agrees with this, but earlier Broodking was suspecting people who did not react to the claim, yet he isn't attracting near as much suspicion as reinoe is simply because reinoe concretized his stance more to the point of arbitrariness.

262: I still haven't heard much in the way of any of Anti's claims about my posts and it boggles me to no end that people actually see verity in such a raw-edged case.

purl=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5993775]451[/url]: I think it's interesting that once epm starts getting serious pressure from Antihero and co. he attempts to re-encourage the townbloc idea, which was previously proposed by don_johnson and included epm in it

Responding to newer stuff:

482: I'd say this is WIFOM, Aneninen. You could have your vote parked exactly where it is to dodge questions like this in such a manner. Doesn't really refute my points anyway, though after readthrough I'm more inclined to believe you aren't scum.

483: Exactly how is a townbloc "formed naturally" but not "manufactured"? The block in the game you mentioned is you and one other person, and I'm not exactly sure of what it's effect was.

500: omg. don_johnson literally tells Misaka to read the game so that he can know where he stands. ahahahaha. I. can't. deal.

Final Player Reads

Boonskiies: I'm still really sold on this; a readthrough of the thread didn't really produce anything standing in the wayside of his scumminess. Like I said, 88 was brought up but it didn't really convince me that he was newbtown. I don't like the way he's reacted to my vote on him at all; it's just been defense-defense-defense with none of the content he keeps promising.

Aneninen: I don't really feel like Aneninen has been an influential entity in this game. He's really emotionally charged though, and I've questioned if that is sincere or a sort of confident-scum. For now I'm inclined to believe he's town whose play is off, but should he escape into later days with a lot of the same, I'd be wary.

Misaka Network: I actually think I align with a lot of Misaka's reads (except that which is on me obviously). His analysis and stance on the apathy of this game feel very town. While his votes are never explained within the same post, they do not feel opportunistic.

BroodkingEXE: I'm wary. The meta thing, which has been by far Broodking's biggest contribution, was kind of half-baked. Since then, he's promised content which we really haven't gotten.

chaoslord54: I'm actually going to abstain from discussing chaoslord, but from his few posts, he's town.

evilpacman18: He's not useful, but he's like the first of three for whom I could say that. What makes him a bit scummy is that he's always quick and eager to defend himself, but little else.

Antihero: Playstyle-wise, I have a problem with Antihero's flippant, confident attitude; it's producing big statements with little to no explanation, such as his bracketed suspect lists and his case on me. That aside though I think he is town because what explanation escapes him has been relatively logical. He's also, as he promised, explosive; I questioned his move from EPM to me even though he said he wasn't moving but now I think that's just how he is.

Guyett: Not really impressed? Despite his numerous posts I can't really recall anything original aside from his case on me. He feels as though he plays lackey to Antihero a lot. In my gut he feels scummy, his posting just doesn't feel as town as Misaka, Konowa, or even Antihero.

don_johnson: oh my jesus. Where do I begin. I have tried to avoid confrontation with his posts recently because we are honestly going to get nowhere with him. Everything he said on Day 1 was contradictory, but I knew for sure his playstyle was NOT the same as ours and it worked FOR HIM and no matter how you tried to restate it you were MISREPPING him and SPINNING his words and he was just not fun to talk to. I know this is all playstyle related and I probably should leave it alone, but it explains my null read on him because he simply attributes anything which one would consider scummy about him to be playstyle-related and when anyone questioned that it was instantly greeted with claims of word entanglement and "scum!". Unless he magically erupts from this vile cocoon and becomes a magical scum-finding vote-count-analyzing butterfly tomorrow, I recommend he be vigged at once.

startfromtheheart: Speaking of obfuscating playstyles...however I feel his uselessness is 100% intention. Yet I also think there is a chance that he could choose to become helpful, which don_johnson or evilpacman18 honestly have little potential for IMO. I'd put Bert in the same boat as Aneninen.

Konowa: The miller claim feels pretty legit and I think he's been fairly analytic and critical all day, so he seems like one of the more clear cut town in this game

reinoe: He was certainly flailing today, and I don't think I can forgive that 180 flip on his stance on millers regardless of the context that influenced it. I do think after that settled down though he didn't seem to shrink away as much as say Boonskiies did when the pressure left him. So I'd probably have him leaning town.

Final ranking, scum to town
Boonskiies
evilpacman18
BroodkingEXE
Guyett
startfromtheheart
Aneninen
reinoe
Antihero
Konowa
Misaka Network
chaoslord54

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603: This is why playstyles like this infuriate me. You've done little but piddle about all day, and now when it matters most, when you "don't know" about my wagon, you couldn't really change it if you tried. Frustrating.

607: I hoped you would see that I'm being intentionally vague. Just read chaoslord's posts before I made mine and hopefully you'll see it. Here's a hint: I think 605 from you is especially sketch and literally fish-y. But again, the brunt of your reaction to chaoslord feels town.

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Whoa. Could you link to this game, reinoe? If that's the case it definitely twists things up.

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Yeah OK. I originally thought chaoslord was newbtown foolishly softclaiming but that game link reinoe posted throws things up in the air, maybe to the point where he is scum.

But I've been hammered, so I can't do anything about it now. Good luck town!