Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Kaboose]

VOTE: Kaboose

Because no one else did

[Kaboose]

I come on a minute right after a self vote,
Kinda hoped Kab's game would start on a diff note
Read the game, your input is valuable
I'll give you a pass but I won't call you reliable.

But I wanted someone to RVS me and no one did, I feel like the last kid picked at dodgeball now.

[Kaboose]

1. Yeah except the moment you're proven to be a mason you pretty much die. To win with a mason team being all standing between this and mountainous, we need to keep the masons alive. It's like a delayed innocent child, if you will. Masons should be dropping tells that they're not masons (not enough to be scummy ofc).
Hypoclaim is rolefishing because the moment you claim recruited mason scum knows who did the recruiting.

2. Pretty much a useless point, you don't need to unvote to revote and I was lazy with the bbcode. Why, does this matter?

I realllllly hate how you tell the masons how to act. How can that benefit masons and the town at all? Seeing that if they take your suggestion it'll only narrow the players down for scum to find the masons. It's like a roundabout way to get them to role claim almost.
---

Btw here are the four games I played on MS from earliest to latest. As you can see, I dont have a fixed style of play as either faction (except the part about claiming scum). I would say meta on me is useless, but if people insist...
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=58838
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59515
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59745
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=59949

And how the shit is Mathdino in this game?

I realllllly hate how people use past games to justify actions in this one, but it happens in like every game I play so this must just be how you play on this site. Still, someone trying to prove their innocence this game with games past will always look scummy to me no matter how much it's accepted as a strategy on this site. Prove to me you're town THIS game with your actions in THIS game, not with your actions in previous games.
---

@Riddleton: If you were a mason who would you recruit and why?

Is this a good thing to discuss or does it give too much information to scum?

I don't see why it would be a bad thing to discuss or how much info it might give to scum. Please enlighten me.

My first impression of this setup was that it would be important to keep the masons hidden, which means we shouldn't talk about them. I wasn't sure whether that was the strategy though (I'm still not), so I asked.

I was actually town reading swag by the end of page 2 for proactively coming up with suspicions and getting us out of RVS. Corpses has a good point with the "mechanical" scumhunting, I think, though. I'm gonna have to check to see whether he usually relies on tells like that or not. For now he's town, though.
@swag: How strong are your reads? In other words, how subject to change do you think they will be? Also, do you still think Rubik was scum trying to get more pre-game talk given that he still hasn't posted?

elle sorta pinged to me, too, around the time she was jumped on. Hearing her reasoning makes me feel better about her, though. I don't see the frustration swag pointed out in 89.

I was gonna say Kaboose was null because he probably didn't realize we were out of RVS yet, but he read the thread well enough to know nobody had voted him. :/

I thought fairies seemed a little overly defensive in her entrance, but I like 107. I like the fact that she read the links swag posted, and that she asks about terms she doesn't understand. Makes me feel like she's trying to figure things out.
@fairies: Can you elaborate on how Riddle and swag's interaction seems scum-scum? Is it because they're town reading each other?

I'm having trouble getting reads on Grib and GC because I keep getting them mixed up. The combined posts of mostly-black with green avatar seem pro-town to me, but I don't have much of a read on either yet. I disagree that corpses was shooting down swag's contributions more than providing contributions (119), but I like GC's thought processes and openness.
@GC: I don't understand what you're getting at with 117. What did Riddle's answer tell you?

@davesaz: I see a lot of questions from you but you're not really supplying any opinions yourself. What do you think of Grib, riddle, and swag?

My early town reads are swag, GC, corpses, and riddle.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kaboose
You're welcome for the vote. Now talk to me.

What do you want to talk about? Would you like to talk about your slip in this post on GC and how you wanted to toss his name in with town reads mere sentences after a no read?
---

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

UNVOTE:

I saw this in my read through again and didn't go back to look at who you were voting, but clearly whoever it was is not a scum read? Since you admit to having one and then unvote someone that I'm about to go find out who in a second. Could this be a case of you wanting to act like you have a scum read, and then realize, oh crap I have a vote out, to which I ask why you were voting that person to begin with? Unless it was a RVS vote or something, I don't know. This 160 & 161 just stick out.
---

Vote count
Day 1.2

Players alive: 13

Players needed to lynch: 7

awesomeusername

- 2 - elleheathen, Grib - (L-5)

elleheathen

- 2 - Riddleton, CorpsesInEthanol - (L-5)

Kaboose

- 2 - Kaboose, awesomeusername - (L-5)

Riddleton

- 3 - Green Crayons, NJAC, I Love Fairies - (L-4)

Whatisswag

- 1 - Hannibal6 - (L-6)

Players not voting: davesaz, RubikAshtray, Whatisswag

Mod notes

:
RubikAshtray has failed to pick up his role PM before the Saturday deadline and will be replaced.
Hannibal6 has been prodded

Deadline is in

(expired on 2015-01-14 20:45:00)

Unless I'm mistaken a lot of people I've read so far have called Riddleton town, but he's leading the way with votes? How come?
---

VOTE: CorpsesInEthanol because I like his role trap least of all in this thread so far.

[Kaboose]

VOTE: Corpses

That video should earn you a policy lynch. I didn't want to sleep the rest of this year anyways. God damn.

[Kaboose]

I didn't realise you were a septuple voter, Kaboose!

Me either as I have no idea what that means or is.
---

Kaboose or Green Crayons: how is it scummy to tell the Masons to act like VTs (unless I'm interpreting Corpses incorrectly)? That's what they

should

be doing.

Riddleton, why are you hopping on Corpses?

I don't think he exactly said "Hey masons! Look like a couple of VTs yeah?!" I mean he said more along the lines of "Hey act scummy so we don't know you're masons, but not obvscum obviously." Like I see this as a great scum play. Tell the masons to act a certain way so you might be able to spot them, or so they act scummy and get lynched. That's what I see him attempting.
---

The fact that Kaboose called that a "role trap" leads me to believe we think Corpses' particular action is suspicious for different reasons, though I can kind of see what Kaboose is saying.

I just sort of came up with role trap I don't know if it's an actual term or not. I called it a trap because he wasn't directly fishing like "Hey here's a clever way to make everyone role claim!" and more a "Here what you should do so we don't know but really end up knowing" Like he was trying to fool the masons is how it looked. So he was setting a trap in my opinion, making a post that looks helpful because he wants people to think he's trying to help, but in reality it's just trying to narrow down who the masons are.

Sup. I am here to dramatically flop around as a replacement.

Taking middle ground gives null.

The way I scum hunt is relating the person I see to myself (another way of saying: I dont scum hunt by logic, I scum hunt by gut).

Something about the way that you're adding together what you see as scumtells and towntells to get nullreads while also saying that you scumhunt using gut feels off. I think it's that using generic towntells/scumtells and adding them together feels anything but gutbased. I might be getting caught up in semantics, so please try to elaborate on this so I can avoid being an idiot and getting caught up in a dumb argument about nothing here.

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

I don't want to vote for any of them. The points raised against elle and Kaboose are meh.

What do you think of the points on whatisswag? I feel like you've danced around talking about him assuming I didn't just miss something in my readback.

@Green

, earlier on why were you voting Riddle over Grib, Corpses or elle? What were you hoping to get out of that single line of questioning that made him worth voting for? Also, what do you make of awesome's simultaneous townread/inability to read you and the players that are ramping up pressure on him for it?

So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Not really seeing why this is clearly scum-motivated and not just a bad play on Corpse's part.

Do you not think people should come under pressure for bad play? How do you expect the game to ever advance? Even if it is just bad play, it was a play that could hurt our most powerful win condition.

[Kaboose]

Actually I have a scum read. Not saying it at the moment.

UNVOTE:

Okay I looked in to this, and it's nothing that raises alarms, you were just unvoting a very early vote.

[Kaboose]

Telling masons to be "dropping tells that they're not masons (not enough to be scummy ofc)" has no actual value because that is the obvious, logical play of being a mason. However, it's an action that looks like it has value because Corpses is supporting a play that benefits masons staying alive. So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Okay, so you think it doesn't have any value. That's fair. But if you actually go back and look at the interaction as it occurred, Corpses' post was in response to what he perceived as Masonfishing on Whatisswag's part. It wasn't an unprompted "hey guys Masons should totally

not

act like Masons duh" post.

What do you think of the points on whatisswag? I feel like you've danced around talking about him assuming I didn't just miss something in my readback.

Remind me what those points are?

I don't think he exactly said "Hey masons! Look like a couple of VTs yeah?!" I mean he said more along the lines of "Hey act scummy so we don't know you're masons, but not obvscum obviously." Like I see this as a great scum play. Tell the masons to act a certain way so you might be able to spot them, or so they act scummy and get lynched. That's what I see him attempting.

He said to drop tells that they aren't Masons, but yes, he also did mention that they shouldn't act too scummy.

I see it as null, along with directing PRs. Especially in this specific case, where he was telling the Masons to act in a way they should be acting. The reasoning here is bogus IMO, but what I actually dislike about the most this is Riddleton jumping on the wagon of someone he was townreading out of nowhere per your reasoning.

Riddleton: why? You said you liked Kaboose's reasoning, but it seems misguided at best. There wasn't anything to suggest you were even mildly suspicious of Corpses.

So you don't think people should agree with a good point? Because that's what that is.

[Kaboose]

Do me a favor and respond to the relevant part of the quote, and not the whole thing. Use bolding if you don't want to trim the quote.

I'm always afraid to trim, because I don't want people thinking I'm hiding something. Is it okay to trim?

I think scum are just as capable of making a good point as anyone else. If someone has a townread and suddenly jumps on their wagon without any prior suspicions, I'm going to question it.

But if you had town read someone the whole game, and then someone points something out that you didn't notice, does that mean you'll let it slide because you haven't been looking that way? I don't understand why it was handled wrong, or why you think it was anyways. How do we play the game if we're only allowed to think someone is scum if we've thought they were scum before we thought they were scum?

[Kaboose]

@Grib

Okay, sorry to put you through all that, but it seemed weird. Makes a little more sense now. Not that you need my permission, continue on.

[Kaboose]

@Grib

Okay, sorry to put you through all that, but it seemed weird. Makes a little more sense now. Not that you need my permission, continue on.

Continue on with what?

Questioning Riddleton's motives?

[Kaboose]

VOTE: Whatisswag

fuck
off
asshole

So you're just voting because you don't like his opinion of your play style?

There is nothing "useless" about the way I'm playing. I get upset when people dismiss my style, and even more so when they accuse me of lying when I'm not. Calling it useless again after I've said it had a purpose is doing exactly that...

[Kaboose]

@Grib:

Telling masons to be "dropping tells that they're not masons (not enough to be scummy ofc)" has no actual value because that is the obvious, logical play of being a mason. However, it's an action that looks like it has value because Corpses is supporting a play that benefits masons staying alive. So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Okay, so you think it doesn't have any value. That's fair. But if you actually go back and look at the interaction as it occurred, Corpses' post was in response to what he perceived as Masonfishing on Whatisswag's part. It wasn't an unprompted "hey guys Masons should totally

not

act like Masons duh" post.

Yes, I know. I think the context in which this particular action of Corpses's arose is also suspicious. I don't like Corpses's interaction with swag, remember? His fight with swag over the hypoclaim is part of why I'm voting him.

I'm just popping in to say that I will be catching up to this game ASAP, another game has taken my attention but I will be back with this one probably later today I'd imagine.

[Kaboose]

Sorry about that quote, I started to get caught up and got pulled away, forgot I had that in there.

[Kaboose]

If not, I'd like you to at least look over Elle and tell me what you think of her play thus far.

219 and 236 look reasonable, but there isn't really enough said to get a full read.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.
---

Oh.

I don't know why you felt the need to tell me to go on with what I was already doing, but okay.

What do you think of davesaz and Green Crayons?

Hey Kaboose, in case you missed this.

I'm about to get to davesaz, and I'm going to have to read back again and look at Green Crayons but right now nothing of his stood out to me this trip through.
---

I probably wouldn't have had much of a problem with your pressure on Whatisswag if it weren't for this. You voted him because he upset you, and now you're going back and suddenly finding reasons for him being scummy. It just seems more convenient/lazy than genuine.

And then you felt the need to explicitly justify it here:

In case you haven't figured it out from my other posting, my vote is not currently an OMGUS. I'm seeing scummy things that have nothing to do with you incorrectly scum reading my playstyle.

when I'm pretty sure nobody accused you of OMGUS'ing.

1. I use an argument technique that I call disarming the opposition. It consists of anticipating things the opposition may use in rebuttal, and preempting them.

2. I put some of the other reasons in the same post, before the portion you quoted.

3. There is an inconsistency between how Whatisswag is treating my posting and several others who have done much less.

In response to number 1 this sounds like something only a scum could do and get a good result. As town how can you anticipate what a scum would say? If you could, shouldn't you have this game figured out for us by now? This sounds like something only someone who has the game figured out could do, to me. Also this doesn't seem like a good scum hunting tool if you're only asking questions you can anticipate an answer to, which sounds to me like you're only asking questions that you already know the answer to...
---

I probably wouldn't have had much of a problem with your pressure on Whatisswag if it weren't for this. You voted him because he upset you, and now you're going back and suddenly finding reasons for him being scummy. It just seems more convenient/lazy than genuine.

And then you felt the need to explicitly justify it here:

In case you haven't figured it out from my other posting, my vote is not currently an OMGUS. I'm seeing scummy things that have nothing to do with you incorrectly scum reading my playstyle.

when I'm pretty sure nobody accused you of OMGUS'ing.

1. I use an argument technique that I call disarming the opposition. It consists of anticipating things the opposition may use in rebuttal, and preempting them.

2. I put some of the other reasons in the same post, before the portion you quoted.

3. There is an inconsistency between how Whatisswag is treating my posting and several others who have done much less.

1. But you only handwaved the OMGUS after you went back to find justification for your reaction-fueled vote.

2. Yes, I saw them. What I'm questioning is whether you were inspired to start scumreading Whatisswag before or after he insulted you. There's no real way to prove it either way, so I'm going to drop it.

3. It's easier to interact with people who are trying to look like they're contributing (which I imagine is what he thinks you're doing) instead of lurkers.

Also in response to number 1... I don't see why Davesaz ever got upset and OMGUS'd Whatisswag over Whatisswag questioning his posting. Why would he get so upset and then explain to us a page later how he has this special posting style he does? If it had a real purpose why are getting mad about someone not liking it and stomping your feet Dave? It just doesn't add up.

a. OMGUS vote telling swag to fuck off.
b. explain to the class why your posting isn't useless but still upset that someone has that opinion of it
c. explain to the class that it's a unique technique and give it a name

Surely with your anticipation skills you should have foreseen Swag finding your posting useless? Why did you get so upset if you had an explanation, why would you out your style? Now people can manipulate it.

Since my vote on dave is not getting much response (in terms of people who comment on it) UNVOTE: .

But I will be watching you, dave.

I would be willing to vote dave.

[Kaboose]

@Kaboose:

Town gains nothing by lynching town. I play as town with a primary objective of lynching scum and a secondary objective of becoming obvtown (ie not being lynched).

To do so, I try to anticipate how both town and scum might scum read me.
That scum do this too is immaterial, other than to say that doing it is not alignment indicative for me.

But you're attempting to do something that you, as town, can't know 100% how anyone will read you. You could say green while someone is thinking blue and you're scum. But in your head you were thinking green, and expecting everyone else to think white. I mean that's probably a terrible example but my point is you're trying to justify to me that your style is a good way to play town by you predicting other people which has to be one of the hardest thing to do in life, much less this game.

The only way your style would work is as scum, because they know most of the answers and would know much more what to expect out of what they say than a town person could ever expect.

[Kaboose]

@Elle, I had a line of questioning for you, but I feel like the response wouldn't be informative.
Basically, it seemed to me like:

What changed between then and now?

My read, obviously.

Was implying that you were scumreading him rather than trying to sort him, but the followup in response to me seemed more geared towards you saying that you were trying to sort him again. Realized on reflection that asking you about it wouldn't really yield anything productive because "oh I was just saying that I wasn't townreading him and am now nullreading him" was likely to be your response regardless of what your alignment is.

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

Oh good someone brings it up for me!

What did you think of the post of hers I quoted? I don't know what to make of it but it seemed weird.

[Kaboose]

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

I see the scum-motivation in trying to prod people for their reads on you so you can adjust your play accordingly, however, I've seen some townplayers do stuff like this in the last few games I've been in, so I'm more inclined to nullread this particular post.

I think I'm more troubled by how safe her play up until her push on Swag has felt, but I admit this is more of a tone argument on my part and I won't be surprised if nobody will listen to me on this point alone.

I guess it would be too obvious for a scum member to be like "If I said this, or since I said that, do you find it scummy or townie" but I just don't see why a town person who is scum hunting would make this a worry. Like do I worry that someone may read me as scum based on me trying to help solve the game? Sure, but I'm not going to be worried enough to stop what I'm doing to ask for confirmation before I proceed. Could you imagine if that's how we played?

Am I alone in my thought that scum are more likely to care about what they look like than a town person? Especially since there aren't any cops or doctors who need to alter their play a bit to make it to day 2.

I'm scum reading Dave, Elle, and still Corpses.

I will say though, maybe it's just me, but this game still seems to be suffering from a bit of holiday hangover. We need some more interactions in here to get people talking and slipping.

Grib! I'm starting at the top of the VC. Do you still find awesomeusername scummy and deserving of your vote? I'll research the answer myself, but if you get a chance let's talk about him. We have a bit of a connection, you're voting awesome, awesome is voting me. I think you also told me I was stupid once or twice in this game. I don't like you for that. Oh and I haven't forgot, I'm going to get to your Green Crayons inquiry as well.

[Kaboose]

Im on my phone so Im not going to bother quoting.

Dave brought it up but I don't feel I went a little deeper in to it. He just sort of brushed it off as nothing. I think its weirder than that.

Also Grib you didnt call me stupid, you're right. Was just two comments that made me feel stupid.

I agree on your point about when people confirm. It's terrible to assume the first, middle, last to confirm means anything at all. Lazy way to play in my opinion.

[Kaboose]

Im on my phone so Im not going to bother quoting.

Dave brought it up but I feel I went a little deeper in to it. He just sort of brushed it off as nothing. I think its weirder than that.

Also Grib you didnt call me stupid, you're right. Was just two comments that made me feel stupid.

I agree on your point about when people confirm. It's terrible to assume the first, middle, last to confirm means anything at all. Lazy way to play in my opinion.

ebwop i had two ways of saying one thing running together. Can we get a tapatalk app for this forum?

[Kaboose]

Oh man where do drafts go when I save them? I can't find what I had worked on at work.

[Kaboose]

Oh FML it's gone.

[Kaboose]

362 - I know it's been a few days, but could you explain this post to me? If you're town, and would love to do that as town, why don't you do it?

366 - This read more like a town post than other posts from Elle. It showed concern, something Elle has lacked in other posts in my opinion.

375 - I agreed with the case presented here on Elle.

380 - Riddle, why are you avoiding posting here? Why do you care about an alt when a clear exchange has taken place between LR and Elle that should be looked over?

382 - If I remember your 362 correct, you're reading someone as town because they would bet a lynch on someone being scum, and here you say they're both the same alignment. Does this mean you're thinking they're both town? You even made sure to argue your point that Elle's post was town against Grib. But now you're acting like it could be either or.

392 - LR was called out on her town reads, and she made a big deal about it because she was being accused as scum for not presenting her reasons. This seemed less like trying to help, and more like you just wanted to stir up a storm again as it seemed Elle and LR were closing their exchange. You really seemed to ask a couple questions here that you could have answered yourself by reading in my opinion.

395 - I kind of felt this was an OMGUS vote as to me LR wasn't the only one seeing you as scum at the point she replaced in I believe. So she started pointing out other things and you just tried to turn everything on her and then you voted for her once you saw Cheetory probing LR a bit.

404 - You actually kind of did say it was town vs. town because you suggested Elle was town, and then defended your feeling against Grib when he said he disagreed. You mentioned having Elle as a town read, but not enough to admit it was TvT?

406 - Wait now you DON'T think they're the same? You did in 382...

409 - Oh here you say something I'm saying in this post. Good job.

410 - I didn't mean to ignore anyone, I was trying to play but a very busy week kept me in and out of the site. I'm open to all questions about anyone or anything and I'll do my best to give my feelings.

416 - Personally, Grib, I don't know if I've got much opinion on Green Crayons one way or the other. They jumped on my Corpses wagon pretty easily without much effort from me to sway anyone I think. Is there something you wanted to point out?

419 - I generally like your posts, and I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong here... But weren't you just all over Elle? Why would you consider switching that easily? The way you attacked Elle would make me think you'd see her lynch out and then go after Awesome. Something about this doesn't add up to me.

422 - Grib, you know that's more or less my case on Elle right?

429 - With so much time on the deadline, are you giving up as a defense to hope we read this as a town post? I really don't like it because there's like 12 days or something until deadline and you're already assuming you're the lynch? It's like a reverse psychology thing here.

I like Grib, and Lone Ranger for townfolk. They've been applying the most pressure to people, and posting with the most reckless abandon. I really don't read their posts and think they've thought about each sentence as much as typing from their heart. Gosh that sounds sappy.

I guess since I'm town reading Grib, I'll fall off of Corpses(I will tell you "I told you so" if the chance arrives later) I still have a gut feeling, but I'm okay falling off because I'm having issues with WhatIsSwag now. Dave and Elle are still on my scum list.

Elle and WhatIsSwag, I would be happy to see either lynched really. If I had to pick one, I think I'd like to see WhatIsSwag lynched just for the weird back tracking he did in calling Elle town in one post, defending it in the next, and then being uncommitted to saying she was town later... That was weird.

[Kaboose]

I agree with 140. davesaz' questions were not that bad imo, so Grib calling him scum for that looks a bit out of the place.

While I finish reading:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grib

So you're going to throw a vote on Grib before you're done reading? On the person who seems to be high on most people's town reads? What does this vote accomplish exactly? I think THIS looks a bit out of place.

[Kaboose]

Well I guess I say most, but when I look at it it's me and Elle(a scum read of mine who is reading him as town...) Still your vote makes no sense to me.

[Kaboose]

454 @Lone Ranger, my original three scum where Corpses, Dave, and Elle. Whatisswag is on that list now too. Riddleton leans a bit towards scum for me based on his post asking you about your alt? When clearly there was much more important stuff to be caring about at that point. You, and Grib, are town reads for me right now. Everyone else I haven't seen enough of to go one way or the other.

455 @Grib, It's just that I had noticed the same thing really, in these two post...323 and 339 and I think someone pointed out that someone else also mentioned it before me. So it's definitely setting bells off in people's head. As far as your first question in 456 - Yeah I can see how that looks weird, but it didn't mean that. I was aiming to say more that "While I'm reading your posts, they don't read like..." I just wanted to say that it seems like you are both typing like you're trying to find something instead of hide something if that makes sense.

466 @Cheetory, When I read that post, it's like you were poking the bear a bit with your line of questioning. Like you were trying to instigate their arguing again.

Because it seemed weird. I don't mind her doing this but I wanted to know why it was such a strong turn to where she could say "I'm about to switch my vote just on this post!" kind of thing. My thought was she said she was close to switching to Awesome over one post, when she had already talked about numerous posts from elle that she was scum reading.

@Lone Ranger, please see above paragraph to my problem with your post about awesome username. I'm not going to call your 467 a misrep, but I said I wasn't saying you were wrong for doing it. It just seemed like a 180 degree turn to me out of now where. Like you were willing to drop everything you already had on Elle.

472 - First, let's calm down here. I feel this is a misrep of me. That first point you hit on about my three mentions... The first quote of mine was something that has been brought up once before me, and once after me. I don't think it's null at all because well I brought it up. So of course I wouldn't find it null. Also, do I actually say in that first quote that she's scummy? I don't call her scummy in that first post at all. I don't like how you make it seem like I did to meet your point later on in this post either.

Why is your biggest issue with me the fact you think I'm acting like I KNOW Elle is scum? May I point these quotes of yours out to you?

You are so scum it is funny.

in 375

AwesomeUsername is scum.

in 419

He is very clearly scum.

in 472

You have created the idea that I know Elle is scum. I don't know she is scum, but she sure acts like it to me. I even posted in my wall that there was a post of hers that seemed townish. Are you even reading my posts? How are you going to tell me I'm scum for acting like I know someone is scum, when it's the same thing you've been doing? By your own logic you're scum reading yourself then, surely?

Your remark about my wall being unnatural is probably true, it was the first time I attempted to write like that(and again in this post I'm doing it for only the second time), normally I go through and quote everything and type under it. But I figured out how to show just a link with a post number. I can see how it would sound different because it's a different way for me to post which I'm personally liking better.

This logic again makes no sense. Are you saying: I understood what you were saying about Elle, and Cheetory misunderstood what you said about Elle, so because Cheetoy misunderstood it that confirms everyone should have misunderstood it? That's really what it sounds like to me. One person understood it, but because one person misunderstood it that confirms the person who understood it shouldn't have. Is that what you're saying?

479 @Grib, that's a bold strategy. Le'ts see if it pays off. What did you think of him voting you and then admitting he hadn't finished his reading yet?

[Kaboose]

I've wanted to vote Elle to L-1, and I still don't think it's a bad idea, but her reads were pretty close to mine scum wise. Only difference is I'm town reading LR. Elle clearly isn't right now. Which makes me concerned too that maybe my read is wrong. That coupled with the fact that her wagon has 2 of my other scum reads on it is keeping me from voting.

Luckily we still have 10 days I think to figure something out.

Whatisswag, what is your reason for wanting Awesome lynched? Green Crayons pointed out that you've only brought him up 1 time, and I'm about to go double check that. I'd still like to know if you have a new reason or not for that?

[Kaboose]

I finally feel pretty solid about a scumread and everyone starts getting cold feet q.q

LR and Kaboose

, can you give thoughts on elle's read on dave?

I read her dave blurb in her reads post and I don't know what to think of it.

The one thing that stands out, and I really doubt this is anything but it struck me a bit odd. She calls him a "null, scum lean" and then starts with saying "If you're town..."

[Kaboose]

554

I brought the same thing up and she never responded to me either.

[Kaboose]

520 - Swag if you could take a minute, let's have a conversation.

So I saw in posts:
462
477
503
551
Are the only times I see you mention awesome.

In 462 you place a vote on him and announce it won't go anywhere else.

In 477 you state that he probably won't be lynched today.

Then in 503 you suggest we lynch him.

Finally in 551 you apparently explain he's scummy for doing something you do as well.

You didn't really answer me about Awesome in 550 while responding to the post of mine that I asked about it. So could you please help me understand why you want someone lynched but you're not trying to convince anyone to do it?

What was the "scum team analysis" you mentioned in 462?

Also since you admit he's unlikely to be lynched, would you be okay compromising on it or is he really the only person you're going to vote on D1?

[Kaboose]

UNVOTE:

Let's hold his toes over the coals and see if he talks Grib.

VOTE: NJAC

[Kaboose]

UNVOTE:

Let's hold his toes over the coals and see if he talks Grib.

VOTE: NJAC

What's the real reason for this vote? Surely you don't think Grib needs help pushing people, and it's doubtful that a joke vote is going to make NJAC talk. So I'm trying to figure out what else you might want to do.

I liked 583 of Gribs. Clearly shows that NJAC is constantly avoiding talking. We have over a week to deadline, and I thought it might be a change of pace to help start some more conversation if we push on NJAC a little and see what comes out.

Definitely wasn't to start a lynch wagon, but more for pressure. My goal was to see if we could get him talking with some pressure.

[Kaboose]

Can you walk me through a situation in which kaboose is scum and elle isn't in which the confirmation bias points you had against him still apply in a way that makes him obviously scum?

My 467 and 472. I still feel that the most likely scenario there is partner interactions but even if Elle were town, the points that Kaboose is making against Elle, and the way he interpreted Elle's posts and my posts about Elle doesn't feel natural.

Well that's handy. If I'm not mistaken this means if Elle flips scum I'm her partner. If she flips town I'm not her partner but still scum? That accurate?

[Kaboose]

elle, the more you lurk, the less I care about lynching elsewhere.

lol, I love that this comes right after one of my posts. Srsly.

Who is even left for you scumread, after you've cleared 7 or so players from your lynchpool?

So with confirms, towns and this, that's me not wanting to vote for:

Kaboose. NJAC. davesaz. Grib. GC. awesomeusername. and now LR.

So that leaves:
Cheetory. ILF. Corpses. swag. and Riddleton.

I really only quoted this to get your 543, but why do you not want to vote NJAC?
---

By the way, if you guys are wondering, it was a post dave made 4 months ago.

Is this whole thing something you can share? If you found something that clears him as town to you why aren't you sharing? Is that against the rules and I'm just too new to know? Or what's going on. Why are we supposed to just see this and think it's okay? Are you going to just tell me you don't care what I think about it? Please don't. You wouldn't have made these posts unless you wanted us to know what you think, so please tell me why I should care what you think.
---

Btw, MASONS DONT RECRUIT TONIGHT. For obvious reasons.

I'd imagine the only people looking to avoid the mason's recruiting would be scum.

[Kaboose]

but why do you not want to vote NJAC?

Here we go again:

I'm still holding to my feels that the first to confirms will be the least likely to be scums and would rather lynch outside of them today - unless they really just do something that starts absolutely screaming scum to me.

So when someone confirms it tells more about the role they got and less about the time zone they live in?

[Kaboose]

Why should recruiting be done night one? The chances of scum hitting 3 masons rather than 2 masons is higher.

I never said it should be done N1. Just that we shouldn't care when they do it. Let them decide when they should do it.

[Kaboose]

That just seems like a really lousy way to create your first impression on someone.

Where were you on the confirmed list?

[Kaboose]

We still need 3/4 replacements?

[Kaboose]

Hey Lone Ranger, did you give thoughts on Elle reading people town/scum based on when they confirm to the mod?

[Kaboose]

You figured all that out from her in 5 posts?

[Kaboose]

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect~

I'll definitely catch up on this game tomorrow, but one thing which I'm not understanding is why WiS is pushing for the riddle lynch when 4 replacements are needed. He's trying to get us into night and most likely stay in night.

I don't like that, but based on a bit that I skimmed of ISO this doesn't feel like the scum-WiS i played in his first newbie game.

It's a townslot!

Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect~

I'll definitely catch up on this game tomorrow, but one thing which I'm not understanding is why WiS is pushing for the riddle lynch when 4 replacements are needed. He's trying to get us into night and most likely stay in night.

I don't like that, but based on a bit that I skimmed of ISO this doesn't feel like the scum-WiS i played in his first newbie game.

Correct!

Of course, if riddle's slot is replaced, then I will unvote.

do you know how anti-town this is.

First you're pushing a lynch on someone who can not claim because they aren't here when they get to L-1 and you could possibly have a mason. (Not saying this is the case, but could happen). Secondly, there's 6 freaking days on the deadline clock. I haven't caught up and I'd like to hear what replacements have to offer. pushing a lynch when we still need slots replaced is scummy as hell, even though I don't think you're scum. I'd like you to stop so I can first catch up and want to hear others thoughts.

wondeful that's exactly what I wanted to hear when I'm reaching out to you and asking you to work with me.

I'm sorry. I forgot about this. I'm off three days this week so I'll be caught during those days~

These five posts?

[Kaboose]

VOTE: I Love Fairies

Elle is my second choice. Riddleton, Cheetory, Davesaz, Corpses and maybe GreenCrayons are townreads.

Soooo 'RVS' and no reason whatsoever for other reads. Noted.

Not what I said. How did you get "RVS" out of "her first post looked scummy?"

Not providing reasons don't mean I don't have them.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elle

AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there.

Kaboose's case on elle make sense, I do think she is uncomfortably self-aware in general. I can see where Cheetory's coming from, too, saying she jumps on easy things.

I feel pretty "meh" about elle though.

Like, she certainly could be scum and I'd be up for an elle lynch if nothing else jumps at me,

but it's not really clicking for me.

Re: the Ranger/elle debate, I really, really like Cheetory's remarks. The whole "forcing an argument" thing does make the argument feel like an attempt to get townreads.

Could just be the power of suggestion though. I found myself nodding along with Ranger more often than with elle - mostly because elle seemed unnecessarily hostile and posturing. Lines like "Do you typically like to wait until deadline to lynch - or just as scum?" (377) make me wonder why elle waited until 395 to vote, too.

It struck me that elle acted differently towards Ranger than I remember her acting towards other people, almost immediately. It looks like her voting history goes swag -> awesome -> swag -> Ranger (which is fewer people than I expected and doesn't support Cheetory's argument that she attacked lots of easy targets), and I know several people have voted her, but I didn't remember elle bristling like this before. I can see a few similar moments in her ISO, though. I need to meta elle to figure out whether this is just playstyle.

@elle: Is my understanding correct that you're scumreading Ranger for 1) not revealing the reasons for her reads and 2) bringing a bad attack on you?

@swag: Why do you think elle and Ranger are the same alignment?

dave's jump onto the elle wagon pinged for me at first but looking back his trajectory on elle seems fine.

The amount of hedging in this post. I've used red and green to highlight it is highly unlikely to come from town. This entire wall is completely meaningless except to say that Elle might be scum but Elle might be town and Ranger might be scum but ranger might be town. Oh, and Cheetory's remarks are good! Town doesn't talk like this. Town may be uncertain, may be unsure, may be confused by a back-and-forth debate even. But not this. It is meaningless nonsense.

If Elle is scum, Kaboose and Swag are who I suspect most.

A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle. His mentions of Elle before his recent wall are minimal and could easily be faked by scum.

If not, I'd like you to at least look over Elle and tell me what you think of her play thus far.

219 and 236 look reasonable, but there isn't really enough said to get a full read.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

@Elle, I had a line of questioning for you, but I feel like the response wouldn't be informative.
Basically, it seemed to me like:

What changed between then and now?

My read, obviously.

Was implying that you were scumreading him rather than trying to sort him, but the followup in response to me seemed more geared towards you saying that you were trying to sort him again. Realized on reflection that asking you about it wouldn't really yield anything productive because "oh I was just saying that I wasn't townreading him and am now nullreading him" was likely to be your response regardless of what your alignment is.

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

Oh good someone brings it up for me!

What did you think of the post of hers I quoted? I don't know what to make of it but it seemed weird.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

I see the scum-motivation in trying to prod people for their reads on you so you can adjust your play accordingly, however, I've seen some townplayers do stuff like this in the last few games I've been in, so I'm more inclined to nullread this particular post.

I think I'm more troubled by how safe her play up until her push on Swag has felt, but I admit this is more of a tone argument on my part and I won't be surprised if nobody will listen to me on this point alone.

I guess it would be too obvious for a scum member to be like "If I said this, or since I said that, do you find it scummy or townie" but I just don't see why a town person who is scum hunting would make this a worry. Like do I worry that someone may read me as scum based on me trying to help solve the game? Sure, but I'm not going to be worried enough to stop what I'm doing to ask for confirmation before I proceed. Could you imagine if that's how we played?

Am I alone in my thought that scum are more likely to care about what they look like than a town person? Especially since there aren't any cops or doctors who need to alter their play a bit to make it to day 2.

I'm scum reading Dave, Elle, and still Corpses.

I will say though, maybe it's just me, but this game still seems to be suffering from a bit of holiday hangover. We need some more interactions in here to get people talking and slipping.

Grib! I'm starting at the top of the VC. Do you still find awesomeusername scummy and deserving of your vote? I'll research the answer myself, but if you get a chance let's talk about him. We have a bit of a connection, you're voting awesome, awesome is voting me. I think you also told me I was stupid once or twice in this game. I don't like you for that. Oh and I haven't forgot, I'm going to get to your Green Crayons inquiry as well.

There are three major mentions of Elle before his recent wall. The first is him calling Elle scummy for something that is completely null. The second is Kaboose excitedly asking Cheetory about his Elle suspicion eager to show that he had Elle as a scumread. The third is an elaboration of his scumread which is okay and fairly null.

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum. He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads. He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle? Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

Cheetory misunderstood my initial arguments even though I explained them to him several times. I cannot believe that Kaboose so miraculously understood all of them and see them as persuasive. My case against Elle is one that is unlikely to appeal to the masses. Cheetory's reactions and calling it nitpicking confirms my thoughts there. I think it would be moderately difficult for an objective outsider to break down what I found scummy about Elle. Kaboose's understanding here is alarming.

As for who to lynch, I feel Kaboose is on balance scummier than Elle. I will switch back if Elle is the lynch that is viable but I want everyone in this game to read Kaboose's wall. And anyone that is reading Kaboose as town should explain why. He is very clearly scum.

VOTE: Kaboose

Elle could be town. Her latest posts felt townish.

I felt the same about you with your unvote - because I had a hard time seeing that coming from scum.

But then the association with Kaboose came and I was like 'Oh, that explains it' because it felt like you were lynch-lining us which made your unvote make sense to me again. But arguing that is basically just saying I wouldn't have associated myself that way with Kaboose if I were scum but all I have to prove that is two games of meta, and meta can be changed.

So, here: White Flag.

I'll try and forget what I think about your not wanting to give me your reads as scum if you can at least consider for a moment that I may be town.

Who do you think is scum?

I don't get why it would bug you when I associated you with Kaboose though. My plan as scum in that case would be hop off of the Elle mislynch wagon, tie Kaboose to Elle, bus the shit out of Kaboose, and after he flipped scum, mislynch you for being his partner. That wouldn't make sense as a scum strategy at all considering your mislynch was up for the taking without bussing Kaboose as well. If Kaboose were town, tying him to you would be pointless as his townflip means my arguments are invalidated and I'd have to concoct new ones. It would be a far better scum strategy to consider options for who is scum if you are town, see the lynch through and then attack those people.

Awesome could be scum if you are town. The hedging makes a ton of sense from someone that wants to see a lynch through but not want to get their hands dirty.

GreenCrayons's latest posts worry me as well. His take on our argument roughly echoes majority opinion in the thread although I'm not sure I can point out specifics. The whole "their argument looks scumVscum" "tunneling" "too focussed on each other" etc. There are no new insights. There is also a lack of assertiveness and his take seemed a bit hesitant and wishy-washy.

Why are you attacking Green Crayons for what I brought up about you?

[Kaboose]

whoops, i was looking through your ISO, forgot about that. I had another point I was about to bring up but was saving it for when I got home. Guess I'll do it now

[Kaboose]

Grib - Haven't seen a read.
Cheetory6 - RubikAshtray - Talked to this slot, but haven't seen a read.
elleheathen - Attacked for being scum.
CorpsesInEthanol - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
davesaz - Can't remember an interaction with this slot.
Whatisswag - Suspected as scum if Elle flipped scum.
Malakittens - awesomeusername - Awesome was scum for sure at one point, but five posts from Mala has erased that completely to a town read.
Kaboose - Attacked for being scum.
Green Crayons - Attacked for being scum.
CptPicard - I Love Fairies - Attacked for being scum.
NJAC - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
Riddleton - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.

Now please correct me, as now this is rushed to prevent me from needing to requote all those again. Point I'm getting at is that LR is getting close to scum reading everyone. This is either a scatter gun VT, or scum trying to muddy waters as best they can.

[Kaboose]

Edit to 759 - You've said Grib's name once in a passing by town read in response to Elle's list of town reads.

[Kaboose]

Edit to 759 - Cheetory - read town in LR's second post, and again in 425 which shows a concern about cheetory, but overall a town read. So yet another person looking suspicious even for a split second to LR.

[Kaboose]

Why are you attacking Green Crayons for what I brought up about you?

I don't understand what argument you are referring to.

I'm the one who first mentioned that you came up with the miraculous town read on Mala after five posts, and yet all your attention went to GC and you never brought me up in all of it and I believe you were/are voting for me, but GC got all your attention.

[Kaboose]

Grib - Haven't seen a read.
Cheetory6 - RubikAshtray - Talked to this slot, but haven't seen a read.
elleheathen - Attacked for being scum.
CorpsesInEthanol - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
davesaz - Can't remember an interaction with this slot.
Whatisswag - Suspected as scum if Elle flipped scum.
Malakittens - awesomeusername - Awesome was scum for sure at one point, but five posts from Mala has erased that completely to a town read.
Kaboose - Attacked for being scum.
Green Crayons - Attacked for being scum.
CptPicard - I Love Fairies - Attacked for being scum.
NJAC - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
Riddleton - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.

Now please correct me, as now this is rushed to prevent me from needing to requote all those again. Point I'm getting at is that LR is getting close to scum reading everyone. This is either a scatter gun VT, or scum trying to muddy waters as best they can.

If you are actually town here, please learn how to scumhunt. Getting into a theory discussion with you about why it is a terrible strategy as scum to attack everyone in the game is boring. Accuse me of something that's actually scummy and engage my interest.

Why do you assume I was scum reading you?

[Kaboose]

I mean if you accuse me of doing a certain scummy thing X, then I can defend that I didn't do X or why it was justified.

You are accusing me of doing thing Y which is whole hell of a lot more likely to come from town than scum. That's a theory discussion. That's boring.

Pedit: It is implied from your response.

I was attempting to town read you. But you clearly know better than me so I'll stop? I guess?

Please show me where I was implying you were scum.

[Kaboose]

I was going to eventually get to the fact that you're too all over the place to be scum. Even though you like speaking with phrases like "For sure" and others. You look to me like you have absolutely no idea what's going on. So I assume that would be because you're town.

[Kaboose]

Couldn't NJAC's constant proddodging mean there's a reason they don't want to just replace out like the others? Does anyone know enough about them to know if they like playing scum more than town?

[Kaboose]

How did you forget when you just quoted LR's post 30 minutes ago that talks about Masons?

[Kaboose]

I don't like Whatisswag, and I'm prodging right now, but I'm getting caught up on the couple of new pages and then I'll explain why I don't like Swag.

[Kaboose]

I keep seeing things from Swag that are setting off a bell in my head as manufactured town things. As well as just things that don't add up. Here are some examples:

I think we should hypoclaim recruiting mason and who we will target n1

Shit. i just forgot there are masons. But whatever.

Second post in the game he's wanting to hypoclaim recruiting masons. Then one of his more recent posts he claims he forgot there were masons in the game. Now I know that's quite a gap, but he came in to the game with a plan of some sort or else why even bring up the hypoclaim? So how do you actually forget there are masons? Not to mention Swag was the one trying to direct the mason's recruiting as well before forgetting about them.

There is a really weird interaction between NJAC and Grib, just like the interaction between elle and LR. If one turns out scum, I expect the other one to be scum too.

Ok, Grib and NJAC probably not scum team

So here he says Grib and NJAC are most likely a team if one flips scum. Then goes back and says they're probably not a team. So I guess the question now is what Swag thinks of Grib? I think Grib is town. But NJAC flipped town, and Swag thought they weren't a team, so it makes me wonder if he thinks Grib is scum? So I guess Swag I'm asking what your read on Grib is now that you have the information you have on NJAC?

Btw, dave is probably going to get killed tonight.

Why would you guess at this? Like this is what seems like the manufactured town slip. A scenario that popped in my head was Swag saying this, and then NKing someone else to try and show us he has no clue who is dying at night. That was the only thing I saw when I read this was scum trying to misdirect, suggesting one death so that when another happened you've got "proof" you might not be scum or something.

If NJAC is scum, I will discuss this another time.

If NJAC is town,

I wonder if scum purposely moved the wagon off elle to NJAC. (If this is the case, all fingers will point at Kaboose)

I wonder which of the other lurkers are scum.

Then this post threw me a bit too. Now I'm a realistic thinker, and from experience I've learned that very few times the D1 lynch doesn't hit a town member. So I can understand there's still something left to figure out here even after the hammer. But I love how he casually points to me if NJAC flipped town. There was no one under the gun as far as "If NJAC flips town, I bet such and such and such and such are partners!" Now earlier there was the Grib and NJAC comment, but he fell off that and declared them probably not a team in between that comment and the flip. However, he goes and tells us that if NJAC flips town all fingers point at me! This just looks to me like someone who knew how the flip was going. Like a slight slip not to call out possible partners because there were none, but to go ahead and lay some bait for the next lynch.

[Kaboose]

Elle comes back under fire for being scum.

Heartless says "Grib is obvscum"

Elle agrees 100%!

(and points out her own post that showed Grib as number 1 town read)

I don't like Elle for this series of events right now.

[Kaboose]

Heartless, are you at the part where LR town reads Mala?

[Kaboose]

Do you like Swag for town?

[Kaboose]

Ugh I don't like Swag. I like Grib. I don't like Elle.

[Kaboose]

I still don't see how Grib is even being considered scum at this point. I also am not sure how Elle hasn't been lynched yet based on how fast she piggy backed on Heartless like we all voted Heartless to be the town voice. Since when is it okay to ObvTown someone, and do a complete 180 on that slot when someone else comes in and says it's ObvScum? She didn't even have to talk you in to it Elle.

Also I love how Elle gets town read by Heartless while agreeing with them. Then I disagree with Heartless and all of a sudden...

my townreads are: elle, dave, Whatisswag, Kaboose, titus

Ugh I don't like Swag. I like Grib. I don't like Elle.

well i don't like your face

alright, all caught up now

gib
mala
greencrayons

^^^will lynch any of these they're all scum

I agree with the Grib and Malakittens scumreads, but I think Kaboose rounds out that ensemble a lot better than Green Crayons.

I'd like to lynch either Swag or Elle today.

[Kaboose]

That has very little to do with whether or not you disagree with Anti and a lot more to with the fact that you're not fooling me, hon.

Well shit my gig is up then. Game solved, vote away.

[Kaboose]

@Grib why would scum not just lurk it out? I am not seeing the Elle push at all.

Why would the entire scumteam be lurking?

I would image there are active scum. My point is, why wouldn't ellescum lurk out her wagon? What would she gain by her behavior? The ideal play there is to lurk while her buddies stir up drama.

At least I found someone who thinks there are a high number of lurking scum. (Which happens to be between 1 and 3, so not THAT high after all)

Are you trying to say that all the scum are lurking? Is this coming from the person who posts 3-20 posts at a time? I always get such a kick out of people who point to scum in the exact opposite place they are in. It's like me purposely posting on even number posts and saying "Scum are posting on odd number posts! Lynch them all!"

Happy to oblige.

VOTE: Kaboose

Does this mean if I dared you to unvote, you would?

Titus, the thing about scum playing optimally is that it assumes 100% of the time scum aren't going to fuck up or make stupid decisions.

Swag is town. His posts are bad but not scummy.

I disagree, his posts are both bad and scummy.

Post 951 was made by Antihero, who apparently has a soft spot in his heart for scum.

Post 979 on is me. Hi, I'm TTH!

I hope you're not someone who just points at someone, and then calls them something until everyone just agrees with you. Is this your plan? Pick someone out and just casually call them what you want until everyone just kind of agrees with you because they've read it so much?

996 - I don't even know what to say about this. Like seriously, you had me convinced I was scum just by reading it. Like I'm not even joking. You analyzed my face off and I almost can't offer a single rebuttal to this. I've read it a million times, defined most of the bigger words, and I just, I don't know. I would honestly be honored to be lynched based on this post. It deserves it. My only problem, if you'll direct your attention to the quote above(992) I'm scum for sure in that post. Then you post all this intricate analysis and you "Think" I'm scum. Did you talk yourself out of it or something?

That's actually quite a good case. I fully agree that his backpedal on me and telling me he's trying to townread me was awkward. The thing is, so many things people are doing this game feel awkward and newbish so it is hard to get a feel for what's scummy-awkward. I'm going to take a better look at your case later when I'm home. Why do you have a townread on GC?

Did you just backpedal on me as well here? You start by saying it's a good case, and that you "fully" agree that my backpedal on you was telling, but "meh everyone else is doing it so who knows?"

Kaboose just went down a few notches...

He complains about how Elle hasn't been lynched... and is voting no one.

Elle, I like the balls in the pushback and that does make sense. Grib's not usually that vocal. I am though. So it's not a total scumcase but it's something definitely worth looking into.

Weakkkkkkkkkkkkk - Don't misrep me, who cares if I didn't cast a vote? Seriously why do people on this game think voting is so important? Like I clearly said I would be happy lynching either Swag or Elle today. Must I cast a vote right then and there to avoid looking scummy to you? I like to present my opinion to people, and give people a chance to discuss it before I place a vote. I'm a very firm believe that votes have two reasons to be cast.

1. To apply pressure.
2. To lynch.

I knew, as of that post, that neither would happen to either of them. It was way too early. Even a vote on Elle, who I do think had a few votes, I knew wouldn't go anywhere, because we still had way too much to discuss as a town for this day.

Has Kaboose responded to TTH's case and I missed it?

lol there has to be a response before you evaluate a case?

Really? This is just like what I was talking about earlier, are you going to run around this game pointing fingers and shouting things and assume we should all just follow your lead? That is a miserable play style. You're going to present a case and then push for everyone to lynch that person before they even get a chance to provide a response? Were you elected judge, jury, and executioner somewhere and I missed it? Can it even be called a case when someone evaluates a person and that's all someone has to go on is their opinion? I would assume a case would need two sides to the story.

Now watch a cool magic trick. As of the time before this post Grib hasn't really hoped on my wagon or considered me scum outside of a "wouldn't care if lynched" comment. I saw this while reading, but didn't put it all together until just near the end so I didn't grab any quotes. I just find it funny that Grib isn't committing to me when such a good case has been presented, and others(swag, LR, Heartless, titus) have all been inching closer to me with rope. I say it's funny because I'm town reading him, which like makes me think he likes me right now because of that and he's cool with keeping me alive because of that. Now the magic trick is watch as Grib changes his opinion on me now that I'm calling him out as doing something scummy to me.

Abrakadabra!

[Kaboose]

Why should I respond to your question, if you're going to edit out my question and then act like I'm just making a useless statement?

[Kaboose]

okay I

ROLECLAIM: Gladiator

I

Challenge: Kaboose

Not how gladiator works.

U know what, I am getting tired of this.

Roleclaim: Mason

I targetted Kaboose last night and Kaboose was scum.

This isn't worded correctly for one thing in my opinion as you probably would have said something like "I attempted to recruit Kaboose last night and it failed." would probably be more suitable. Also why did you wait so long to tell us this? Considering your posts since D2 started...

NJAC

- 7 - Kaboose,

Cheetory6

, Green Crayons, Lone Ranger, Grib, davesaz, Whatisswag - (L-0) (LYNCH!)

There's

at least

two scum there.

I disagree. I would think that the lurkers pile has more scum. usually in my town games, I get at least some number of scum reads. This game, I have none so far (surprisingly). Either someone is super good at being scum or the lurking people...

Elle claims there are scum on the wagon there, and you disagree with her... While I'm on it?

Why is Cheetory killed? Is it possible because elle is scum?

You again accuse Elle of being scum.

972 - In this post you reply to all my concerns on you with no problem or questions of concern towards me.

@dave:

Brain Edit: Wait, she said she wasn't recruited, which in this game is a VT claim. How is it town to claim VT right at the top of day 1? It just makes scum's job easier.

I'm not following what you are saying.

It is a VT claim to say you're not recruited. VT claims in a mason game narrow down the range of players who might be mason, and scum need to identify masons to eliminate them before LYLO (assuming the game gets that far). There is no good town motivation to claim, especially this early in the day.

There are scum reasons for doing it, in particular to fish for mason reactions like "how do you know anyone was recruited". Masons should keep their mouths shut BTW.

BS. Masons know not to say anything.

What I'm pointing out with it is that I think they would have recruited between:

Me. LR. GC. Grib. davesaz.

Since I wasn't, that leaves the other 4. And I'm pretty damn sure scum is in there.

I want scum to know I wasn't recruited. Because it increases the likelihood that they WERE.

And I get a warm feeling inside when I imagine them worrying about it, wondering when it'll come out, waiting, waiting.

No, just no. Stupid. You need a vote.

VOTE: elleheathen

You decide to vote Elle, and then unvote her in like the next post or close to it. Why were you on Elle if you already knew I was scum based on your claim?

@Swag, What really townie things did Elle do?

Your last series of posts look like scum catch up. People are talking about Elle scum, I'll throw in a vote bc her reads suck. Shit, wagon has resistance. Better unvote.

Your last post is ridiculous. No one points the finger at themselves.

Considering the fact you've allegedly read, what are your reads?


@Dave, My scumgame is much better than that. Ask Grib (aka Snowvon). I scumhunt by supposing people take optimal actions based on what they know. Elle's play is suboptimal for scum there and I was explaining that to Grib.

elle's towny behaviour would be mentioned later when I have time.

My second strongest town read died in the night.

So now it is this:
davesaz- confirm town, whoever is targetting dave screw off.
Heartless- towny, both parts of the hydra display town behaviour even though their playstyles can be different.
Green crayons- a little bit town, his walls and his slightly aggressive behaviour is town. But the fact that he switches his playstyle when LR targets him jumps out to me
Lone ranger- a little bit town, this is gut
Titus- a little bit town, this is gut
elle- null
Grib- null, I cannot read this guy even though I played with him before.
Mala- a little bit scum, partially because both the original dude and the replacement is lurking, partially because awesome did not really do much in terms of giving reads.
Kaboose- a little bit scum. He seem somewhat different when I played with him, in a scummy way.
I cannot remember any other people.

First time you mention me in D2 as "little bit scum" but you tried to recruit me last night and it failed... so i'm just a little bit scum because of that.. Cool.

I first read the role claim of his and just thought "He's trying really hard to get me lynched, but he just recently jumped on me, that claim doesn't make sense."

Then my next thought was "Oh he's simply scum trying to mislynch me!"

But then I thought "Nah, scum wouldn't do that because the real recruiting mason would just counterclaim him and he would be dead."

Then I was like "Oh crap he's trying to get someone to counterclaim so mafia will know another mason!"

Swag if you're somehow town, this was a shit move. Because it could force a counterclaim and if it doesn't you end up night killed anyways. Why the desperation? This is so anti-town. Nothing good can come from this claim you just made.

I believe in lynching liars. On top of that I wanted you lynched anyways because of how you ended D1.

VOTE: WhatisSwag

[Kaboose]

Well 1077's actual reason was my own thought process that brought me to him possibly being a scum attempting to suicide for a counterclaim to take out a mason which if that happened, would essentially leave every town left a VT. So I did 1077 to make sure people knew he was falseclaiming regardless of his alignment to assure no one counterclaimed his falseclaim.

[Kaboose]

Oh ho ho but Titus never mentioned that, Kaboose did, but wait I should thinking that Kaboose is scum in mentioning that, but wait hold on it's still valid, oh man my head is exploding.

The scum I saw in Kaboose's response was presenting all these various reasons why Swag may be fakeclaiming then diving at the least plausible one, that he just wants to out a mason, and then using a platitude "lynch all liars" to trumpet the crusade.

I believe lynching liars promotes good town play, which I've read quite a few times in the wiki page from this site.

[Kaboose]

prodge...

I'm sick and can't concentrate on words right now. I've been home all day trying to reread D2 here, and just can't do it. Hopefully by Sunday I'll be a bit better and able to read.

[Kaboose]

I'm getting caught up now.

[Kaboose]

It is if he was boned. Might as well try to spin out of it. A 1 for 1 trade for scum is a hell of a lot better than 0 for 1.

But swag was not in the position of a scum up against a wall.

Swag wasn't even being pressured by anyone but me I don't think. I almost think his claim came from boredom more than anything else.

I seriously dont understand why people are not voting Kaboose.

Case 1: I am mason, Kaboose is scum.

Case 2: I am scum, Kaboose is vt (or he would have claimed long ago).

Obviously it is better to try your chances at a possible vt instead of a possible mason.

I love how there isn't even the possibility of a case 3, he's VT I'm VT? Case 1 is the case you want us to believe but it has two lies in it. You're not a mason, and I'm not scum but let's go with that because obviously it's better to believe horseshit. I also love how case 2 has you subtly suggesting I should have claimed mason already or something? Was that what you wanted to achieve from your mason claim? To get me to claim mason?

Kaboose shows too much caution to be town. I am just the opposite of him.

I believe I've called you out for doing this already, but you're trying to convince people of our alignments by stating something is scummy to do, which happens to be the exact opposite of what you're doing. That doesn't prove anything other than show us that you think something is scummy, and that you're not doing it. How does me being cautious have any indication of my alignment? It doesn't.

I just get overwhelmed sometimes by this site and the way people express their tells that I get reading and just agree and don't think I need to add anything to it.

Hmm.

Find me a scum pair which is more possible than Kaboose and Green. And I will unvote.

I think you and Dave could be a scum team. Mostly because you found this be all end all town tell on him that we're all just supposed to nod and agree with. You've yet to tell us or give us any reason to believe you that dave is town. Like I'm pretty sure if I asked you "Why is dave town?" you would respond "Because Dave is town." That's about the full unabridged extent of your reason.

Spoiler:

You're ignoring the entire context of Ranger's D1 play with respect to her stated suspicions:

- Ranger replaces in, and immediately does into a hard elle push.

- Followed by declaring awesome/Mala scum based on one (valid) point (Post 419).

- But only "Think<s> of switching there," nothing more.

- Unvotes elle in Post 453, but doesn't go to her next suspicion awesome/Mala. Even though in Post 439 Ranger was "debating between Elle and Awesome as the better lynch today."

- Then finds Kaboose scum, "probably with Elle," even though Ranger had already unvoted elle and thus suggesting Ranger's elle suspicions weren't exactly up to par any more (Post 472). This is confirmed in Post 517 when Ranger states "Elle could be town. Her latest posts felt townish." Weird that Ranger goes from elle to Kaboose, rather than elle to awesome/Mala.

- All the more weird for the lack of an awesome vote because in Post 524 Ranger states "Awesome could be scum if you <elle> are town." Ranger was reading elle to be townish (Post 517), which would undercut her associative suspicions of Kaboose and bolster her disassociative suspicions of awesome - thereby leading to an awesome/Mala vote. Not a Kaboose vote.

- No mention of awesome again for remainder of D1.

- Does mention awesome's replacement, Mala, all the way in Post 728. Simply declares: "Malakittens is town. Now to wait for the other replacements (who hopefully will also make their alignments apparent)." Careful - reading Ranger's posts will give you pretty big whiplash as she changes the slot from her biggest scum read to "apparent" town.

- Ranger then proceeds to get dismissive-defensive about the reason and quickness of her Mala read (Post 733, Post 739, Post 741). Also, successfully makes the conversation about something else by attacking someone who had problems with her Mala read (me) (Post 741, Post 743, Post 744, Post 753).


CONCLUSION: If Mala is town, Ranger is a possible buddy. Laid out some suspicions that will look good should awesome/Mala get lynched - "look, I suspected that scum!" - but simply refuses to actually follow through on those suspicions w/r/t awesome, and then when Mala replaces in shifts the read 180 degrees for no real justification (also recall that Heartless noted that Mala was doing the exact same thing that Ranger found suspicious about awesome - fencesitting - and so Ranger's read shouldn't have changed) and attacks her attackers.

I had a similar post a long time ago about this that wasn't written nearly as well. My only problem was with your conclusion. Why do you analyze LR, but then state that we can find out LR through Mala? Why does it work that way?

I believe dave is town more than I think anyone else here is town or scum.

But WHY?! Can we not know your reason for this?!

I still think Swag should be lynched for the fake claim. LR had a weird unLR post with 1271 - and I'm not sure if it was just a prodge or what.

I'm really interested in more from Dave who hasn't been doing much lately(which makes two of us but there's a bit more prodging going on with that slot than mine. I want to know why Swag knows Dave is confTown. I really want to lynch Swag still, but LR or Mala aren't terrible choices as I really didn't like how LR had Mala town read after those 5 meh posts of nothing.

[Kaboose]

What is MD threads?

[Kaboose]

are*

[Kaboose]

VOTE: GC

Anything else to say?

heartless town.
titus town.
WiS likely town.
CptPicard maybe scum.
GC feels scum based off something i saw on this page, gut feeling.

I don't understand how you have a read on Picard tossed on there but not one on me, or elle, or LR? How do you read Picard as scum? Does it go back to the whole slot or is it something just Picard has done?

[Kaboose]

I can't tell if you're posting with hubris or if you're just completely convinced everything you say is always right.

[Kaboose]

So was the DA modkilled?

[Kaboose]

1. I've read and reread the dave after the fact explanation for his "fuck off" vote, and it's always been very hazy in terms of where he actually lays out his justifications (as opposed to simply saying "no really I was suspecting swag before hand"). I'll reread it again to review whether I can verify that his "coughed up reasons" really check out.

So, I reread pages 1 through 13, and had a pretty good analysis of dave's swag vote and justifications and why it was potentially scummy.

Then I hit the key phrase in Post 259: "In case you haven't figured it out from my other posting, my vote

is not currently

an OMGUS. I'm seeing scummy things that have nothing to do with you incorrectly scum reading my playstyle."

I think it's pretty clear that dave's initial "fuck you" vote is a reactionary/OMGUS vote. I was under the impression that he then went on to try to justify that vote from the get-go as being based on actual suspicions. Rereading his posts, it's clear that he initially didn't have any swag suspicions, did a reactionary vote, that caused him to look closely at swag, and then his swag suspicions developed thereby transforming his swag vote into something more than an OMGUS vote. And I see he wasn't really saying anything different than that.


Welp.

lol, and now just decided to skim dave's ISO and saw this:

I then said that after getting ticked off I did a slow read through of swag up to that point and it looked scummy independent of the rage that prompted me to look.

WELP.

So do you have a conclusion on all this you're trying to reach?

[Kaboose]

I guess I just don't understand or missed what point he's trying to make here about you and Dave.

[Kaboose]

@Kaboose:

So do you have a conclusion on all this you're trying to reach?

Conclusion: my scum read of dave is probably wrong.

Congratulations! You will take his slot in my scum pool of <Mala, Ranger, Kaboose>.

I think it should be more like <Mala, Ranger, Swag>

[Kaboose]

Are you excluding yourself from your list to create some subliminal messaging?

[Kaboose]

Mala, LR, Swag

[Kaboose]

Malakittens, davesaz, and Kaboose.

Does Dave's flip one way or the other put Swag on this list?

[Kaboose]

If dave flips town, shrug.

If dave flips scum, I don't think Swag would be his partner, what with the supertown!dave read heavily linking them.

If Swag flips scum would that take Dave off of your list then?

[Kaboose]

kaboose, grib, gc

Is this both of your opinions or just one?

[Kaboose]

PHEWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.....

blehheheheeheheheheheh

tth needs to see that lone ranger case
UNVOTE:

Which case?

[Kaboose]

LR, Kaboose, ...

And I have honestly sat here for 15 minutes switching the last slot between

Mala/davesaz/Grib

If it's a team situation for adding the three, I would put Mala.
If it's a best shot at taking a risk while we still can based on gut, I'd put Grib.

If it's a active lurking while softpushing but never really doing anything

, it's davesaz.

I got to the coffee part last night but procrastinated against the reading.
But I will do it tonight/morning.

Even if it only gives me a better feel between the last few because I'm going to do the best I can with the extra time we got.

PS. TY for the extension! <3

[Kaboose]

She is calling dave possible scum for the same thing she has been doing.

[Kaboose]

no my case is that, as scum, you make hair-rippingly shitty cases for scummy ppl to be town which is what you're doing w/ kaboose

How am I scummy?

[Kaboose]

Wait you don't see how I'm scum, but Swag is scum and he fakeclaimed a guilty on his buddy, and in that case that buddy was me... So you do think I'm scum? or you don't? Because your 1603 is confusing.

[Kaboose]

there was the hypoclaim as well as him directing masons on what to do as well.

[Kaboose]

I believe when Lone Ranger started the game they had a picture of Xena(I hope I spelled that correctly) as their profile picture. Most likely why.

[Kaboose]

Heartless, legit that one post that you may or may not remember, I just I legit read that 50 times trying to find something to say about it and come back at you and I was just too in awe of it to even attempt anything. WP.