Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[mastin2]

Yo.

Didn't bother to look at how many scum there are in the game (presumably, three), but copper and BlueBloodedToffee are either both town or both scum. (Lean the former.)

Aninenim is town.

One of Wicked/dave is scum, but not both. I lean dave.

Oh.
And I am totally /ready.

[mastin2]

Who said I was joking?

[mastin2]

And if I told you I'm dead-serious?

[mastin2]

Alright, you got me.
I lied.
I'm not dead-serious.

...Just 90% dead serious.
(The other 10% means that I'm semi-serious.)

[mastin2]

(He's still town, btw.)

[mastin2]

Odds are you are both town.

Especially

if you wind up being scum. (Off of what I have now, not sure. Lean against, still, but not as strongly as before.)

[mastin2]

No, not really. (Leaning stronger to town, now.)

[mastin2]

Who lives in a Pinapple under the sea? Sponge Bob Square Pants! What does SpongeBob always say on the way to work?
I'm Ready! I'm Ready!
Award for best post in thread goes to...drum roll please........ME!

/red 5 standing by

Town.

ready

Is probably gonna be impossible to nail down for sure, but I did get a minor scumvibe.

VOTE: davesaz.
I told you I was serious.

[mastin2]

Mostly skimming right now.

There are a couple of reads that I want to get to, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Basically, I want to hold back on giving the info, yet not actually forget what the reads are, but don't want to run afoul of mod rules or what I say being transparently obvious, to let the read develop for a little while longer. I'm coming up on a bit of a blank. Let's just say I basically have thoughts on almost every player in the game right now, albeit mostly weak. I'm really struggling to think what to do about most of it, but I will reiterate this:

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

[mastin2]

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

...
"I don't trust you. Why is he scum? I might vote him, though."


...Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, to answer, basically everything. davesaz is throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book.

[mastin2]

TBH, my bet is "reaction test". So I'm not all that concerned about it really.

Remember how I said I was 90% serious?

The other 10% was the reaction test. (Okay, so to be fair, it's probably better to say I was 60% serious and 40% reaction-testing, and exaggerating the number for the sake of furthering the reaction test, butstill, you get the idea.)

But I was serious then, and am even MORE serious now. My other reads are fluid. As in, they're massively flowing in my mind and I haven't nailed them down quite yet. (I'll try at some time in the immediate future.) But dave? Dave IS scum. I'm not sure if I'm going to really be able to explain it. Like, I can explain the basic not-very-well-based reasoning for the original read easily enough; it was just so plain compared to the other more interesting confirms that I figured "probably just scum who got it out of the way". The weakest of weak possible reasons, thus one reason why I hold onto said reasoning and not explain it immediately. (Because if people knew how weak it was, I'd lose the reactions.)

SINCE then, though, there's plenty more that's much stronger. Like, all of it, really. As in, basically everything dave says, I think, "yep, scum". I'm not sure I can really find the words for it. They're not coherent. But dave has done nothing but scumposting. While, yes, I was originally reaction-testing him, and while, yes, my original reasoning was weak, since then, the read has grown stronger off of much stronger reasoning. I'm just trying to figure out how to make that come across as more than just gibberish right now.

But he's scum. You can trust me on that.

[mastin2]

Heartless:

Where are you? I want to talk some.

[mastin2]

I once went thirteen games in a row without drawing a scum role pm. Some other players that come to mind.

That's nothing.

Try 30. (Or was it 40? It was either 30 or 40.)

2014's been the year of the town PM for me. Annoyingly, it's continued into this year, too. A semi-open is a DREAM for scuMastin; I thrive in that environment. (Heck, one of my favorite scum games ever was a semi-open.) Ah, well. I'll make up for it by making 2015 the year of "lynching scum and getting immediately nightkilled for it".

[mastin2]

i think wicked is likely town.

At this point, even if he's scum he's still town because dammit, he's just so damn town in his recent posting. (Mind you, I've always read him as scum when he's town so me having a townread is making me paranoid that this time he's actually scum. But screw paranoia, I'm sticking to that townread.)

[mastin2]

Also, super-close-to-chest right now, but I

may

have a second scumread.

[mastin2]

Someone slipping and you are waiting form them to confirm it with some other action?

Basically?

Yes.

But I can't say another word without compromising the read.

[mastin2]

I do have another possible lead, though. Something eyestott said

may

have sparked a scumread in him (he was not the second scumread I was talking about), but I'm not sure. I'll need to double-check.

It'll have to wait, though. Getting my game up and running kinda mafiaed me out for the day. (It's really, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally exhausting to get a Large game running smoothly. Like, seriously, don't try this at home, kids. It's bad for your health. )

[mastin2]

I'm curious, do you see differences in the way I am playing (that make you town read me

this

time)? Or has your perception of my meta simply changed? I’ll admit I’m glad that you town read me but it also makes me a little bit paranoid, because you usually don’t.

Heck if I know. You think

you're

paranoid about it, just try being ME with it. If I had to guess, perception, but I really have no clue.

I am suspicious of dave, eye, beast, and Tean.

No comment on Tean, but I'll tip my hand slightly further and tell you beast's town.

[mastin2]

lolmastin you suck at being coy. i know you mean me b/c of the glacially slow start.

Goddammit. I thought I was careful. Like, I really, really tried to avoid any glaringly obvious hints. But yes, it's you, and yes, it's for the inactivity. Of not just one head, but both--I was waiting for you to do stuff and town it up, but your hydra's business and also you being aware of it basically ruins it.

Still, though. Please find a way to town it up?

[mastin2]

I REALLY hate doing prod-dodges, but given that it's nearly 4:30 AM, I've got schoolwork still not done which is due at 11:55 AM, I'm working tomorrow for 5 hours, and I should be getting up at 8 AM...well, I think you can forgive me putting off four pages for a day or so.

@Mastin
Hearthless may be scum but not because of inactivity as that is likely not alignment indicative in this case.

Here's where I'll continue from.

[mastin2]

I SWEAR I AM PLAYING THIS GAME.
TOMORROW.

(I had 2 hours of unplanned extra work today. Two hours of extra work = two hours that're

not

free for mafia stuff that would normally BE free and were in fact scheduled as such. Their absence puts me at a setback; either I get caught up and go to bed at 4 AM AGAIN, or I wait until tomorrow when I'll actually have free time.)

[mastin2]

283 - Mastin, you have to be joking. How are you town-reading BC?

YOU are the one who if I didn't know better I'd be calling joking...for having BC as anything

other than

town.

It's just

that

plainly obvious to me that he's town. Like...he just is. Everywhere. Everything. His entrance, his posting since then, it exudes the aura of towniness. It's also precisely what I'd expect from beast as town; I KNOW him (well, well enough anyway), and he is just town.

[mastin2]

Throw that read away.

Alright, it's official; copper's town. So I think it's about time I shared with you some reads.
BBT I haven't had strong feelings for since the beginning of the game,

but

, the content BBT's posting has been town enough (it's just that I think BBT could post it as scum),

and

given my initial strong town feelings, he's a strong townread.
Copper I've been watching for a while, leaning town but never quite sure. And with this, he's cemented as town. This is just the sort of line that I was waiting to see from him, something that doesn't come naturally to scum to say, beyond content posted.
killapenwin's been fairly null to me, but I've seen nothing scum there and overall lean town. There's something in the posting around this timeframe, though I don't quite remember it.
vettock there's not been much there to give me a read, similar to killapenwin, but is slightly stronger town than killa. I had a reason, but I can't remember it.
Wicked and beast are my two strongest townreads.
Tean I've had mixed feelings on, but given the overall vibe of things, I think they're far more likely to be town than not.
Aninenim is a weak townread, again for reasons that I don't currently remember, somewhere around killa/vettock, but I forget if higher or lower or between them, but in that range.

That leaves dave (scum), Heartless, eyestott, and dodgy. And I think the scumteam's in there.

[mastin2]

You’re either scum or insane if you think your extreme lack of contributions is evidence of a town role pm.

Uh, hate to tell you, but Wicked?

That's

exactly

the case. It's practically a scumtell for beast to produce content, especially in the earlygame. Like I said, I've gotten a fairly good grasp on beast, and I'm decently sure this is his towngame. You don't have to LIKE him for it, but you're not getting a lynch on him for it as long as I live, because he's town even if you don't want that behavior to be.

[mastin2]

Can we lynch eyestott now?

I'd

prefer

dave, but if not him, then yes, eyestott'd probably be my secondary choice.

[mastin2]

In general, Dodgy/Eyestott, the conversation around those posts: Dodgy gives me town-vibes. Eyestott gives me scum-vibes.

Basically, this.

In fact, I think I can get a fairly good readslist going. Copper/BBT/Aneninen are all basically my "just below Wicked and beast"-tiered town right now since they're seeing a lot of the stuff I am.

[mastin2]

yeah, how mastin is ignoring the hammy eyestott/dodgy scum theatre to chase after me (who's time is limited AND TTH CAME IN THE THREAD AND EXPLICITLY SAID SO) is just so fucking beyond me

The eyestott/dodgy exchange has been something I've been keeping my eye on, along with copper and whatnot, and

intentionally

not saying anything. Nor has my focus been on you. My focus has always been on dave. I've DIRECTED attention elsewhere, making NOTES about you (and only pointing out you AFTER you revealed you knew said notes referred to you), and pushed some things (e.g. Wicked town, beast town), but there was rather a significant number of players I was waiting to comment on because my thoughts were still flowing.

To some extent, they still are, even though they've somewhat settled down. Right now I'm mainly focusing on the swirl around the weak townreads and the swirl in you/dodgy.

[mastin2]

holy shit this beast read is overdone too

Fuck that shit. You know goddamned good and well that I can read him. He is town. Period. There are people saying he isn't. I am shutting them down.

eyestott
dodgy
mastin

HEY, ANTI.
I'D LYNCH EITHER OF THOSE NAMES.
Eyestott in a HEARTBEAT.
Dodgy in...well, two or three heartbeats.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?

[mastin2]

what the hell were you waiting on me for?

WHY THE FUCK DO YOU THINK I WAS WAITING FOR YOU?!?

Because I had thoughts on almost all players, the majority leaning positive. You, disconcertingly, NOT ON THAT LIST.

[mastin2]

Her town-read of BC. Scum WK'ing someone who could quite easily be toDay's lynch based on nothing. Like, he has actually done nothing.

HEY, BTT.
FUCK YOUR "no meta" POLICY, GO READ LITERALLY

ANY

FUCKING GODDAMNED MASTOWN GAME YOU PIECE OF SHIT.

Beast is town. I am defending him. Fucking DEALWITHIT.

[mastin2]

Do you know if her read on Beast is accurate?

Damn straight it is!

Beast is town. Admittedly, I used to not be able to tell the difference, but I've played something like ten damn games with him back to back. You get to know a player if you play with them that damn many times...ESPECIALLY if you ALSO have in said games people who can reliably read them, that're familiar with them more than you are, and can give you a "crash course" in reading them. So soon enough, you've BECOME the one giving the crash course, so here I am, giving it.

Beast is town. I am sure of it. More sure of it than I am of dave being scum. More sure of it than anything, even. He just...IS.

[mastin2]

You're willing to bus?

DAMN STRAIGHT I WILL "bus" MY BUDDY EYESTOTT.
VOTE: eyestott.

[mastin2]

What is more important for me is this: how sure are you about your BBT read?

Annoyingly enough? Pretty damn sure.

[mastin2]

You're defending him because he's town and you're scum, right?

No shit I'm defending him because he's town but you are a fucking moron if you think.
Seriously think.
For so much as a MOMENT.
That I have any.
ANY.
Fucking.
Scum motive.
For fucking defending...of all fucking people...

beastcharizard

. BEAST. CHARIZARD. Defended.

Sticking my neck out, huge fucking risk as scum, for what? Cheap towncred that I can easily get by far more reliable, safe methods?

FUCK no.

[mastin2]

(Uh, no offense meant to ya, beast. I <3 you well enough as a player, but...yeah. Zero incentive to see you as a tool to be used as scum; there are far better targets I could select if scum.)

[mastin2]

Sure, except everyone is clearly town-reading the shit out of you (except Heartless) so, no, not that much of a risk actually because EVERYONE is buying it.

Hey, genius.
Serious question.

If the majority thinks it, the majority which happens to include a fair number of players who have played with me and/or know about me, and only you, you who don't have nearly as much exposure to me and deliberately choose to discard said experience anyway, say otherwise.

Which do you think is more likely?

That I pulled a contrived convoluted scheme involving me making moves that make zero logical sense in the hopes of getting towncred with it MAGICALLY somehow working on basically the entire playerlist without a doubt...

...Or that you're being a fucking moron and are wrong?

[mastin2]

That leaves dave (scum), Heartless, eyestott, and dodgy. And I think the scumteam's in there.

so your scumlist is the EXACT SAME as mine minus dave / switching us?

No, YOUR list is the same as

mine

. There's an *order* to this sort of thing.


...Point taken, though.

(Heartless is town, one of my weaker townreads is likely scum, stay tuned for an update.)

[mastin2]

>it's only supported by "if i said it, it wouldn't make sense". never stopped her from trying before

I wasn't asked. I said I'm having trouble coming up with the words for it. Nobody asked me to try in spite of that after I made that declaration, though.

>mastin knows me and KNOWS that my scumgame is made up of prod dodges but seems to be applying that in the most superficial manner possible here

There was nothing superficial about that. I had a read. I tried keeping it close to my chest. You saw through it. I revealed said read because there was no point in hiding it if you were already aware. Said read wasn't strong because both of you were markably absent and this isn't the first time you've had a slow start as town. (Wire comes to mind.) You've townned it up since then. It's really that simple.

usually w/ mastin town, i see a sweet spot in the scum reads where i think "yeah, that sounds right" and that is NOTABLY absent in this game.

Your reads being the same as my reads isn't a big fucking huge tipoff?

[mastin2]

Even a rudimentary explanation deeper than " throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book." is never offered, and there's little more than bluster behind the read.

I'm lazy. Dealwithit. Just because I haven't offered the explanations doesn't mean it isn't there.

What's really telling to me is how mastin behaves when the wagon starts to falter, though.

What, you mean the fact that I've been deliberately lurking about when thinking about it?

With the rise of the eyestott counterwagon, she happily trades a dave vote for the counterwagon vote in Post 448.

And I'll happily, in a fucking HEARTBEAT, switch right damn back to dave.

By the way, we're never treated as to why she thinks eyestott is scum either.

LIKE FUCKING HELL I HAVEN'T. There was something I caught about eyestoot at one point that I can't remember at the moment, which brought him into my eye. He was already underm y attention for other factors, but that singular thing tipped the scale officially. AND THEN, on top of all of that, there was his exchange with I believe it was dodgy. In that exchange, dodgy absolutely creamed eyestott, and I noted as much and townread other people who beat me to having noted it as such in-thread.

Bailing on the dave wagon like that for a counterwagon on eyestott makes very little sense given the confidence in the davesaz read

and

in the context of mastin's other reads.

Yeah.

It makes very little sense.

THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEASN IN THE CONTEXCT OF FUCKING MASTIN.

MASTIN

.

I switched to eyestott because, guess what? eyestott is just as much of a scumread as Dave is, if not stronger.

With the exception of eyestott, she was townreading the dave wagon, but the eyestott wagon contains strong-"scumread" dave and is championed by mild scumread dodgy (Post 442).

Quite aware that my company on eyestott isn't the best and the company on dave was better. Don't give a damn.

And it's not like mastin hasn't been on at all and just hasn't had time to write a case.

Except it really fucking has been. YOU. FUFCKINHFG. DON'T. KNOW. MY. LIFE. How I think. My priorities, fucking up as they are., YUo knoiw. NOTHING. About how I think things through and I akm fuvkuing telling you that I haven';t had the opportunity.

/gotta go, so read of catchup later.

[mastin2]

You asking TTH if Mastin's outburst is town, when you clearly did the same thing and hinted that it was faked "for strategical reasons" and then self consciously adding that you shouldn't be read as town for it...

Which tells you...

what

about Dave, exactly?

ESPECIALLY since I have been pushing him?

(Btw, in case you're wondering, I have doubts about dodgy/eyestott being scum theater and lean against it, with dodgy being town and one of my weaker townreads wrong, to be visited at a date in the near-future. However, estott-dave on the other hand......

there

is an interaction I find

quite

interesting.)

[mastin2]

However, if you can engage BBT and tell him things like "FUCK YOUR "no meta" POLICY, GO READ LITERALLY ANY FUCKING GODDAMNED MASTOWN GAME YOU PIECE OF SHIT." then I would think you can drop a quick sentence or two saying "this is the newbscumtell dave's dropping."

Wrong

.

You don't know the way my brain is wired. You just dont'. If you tinkt at I'd have that sort of thought. It's not that simple. The da ve read is...how do I explain it? The ndave read is important. It's a builtup thingymajiggy. I hold it close to me. Like a cheesy shonen protagonist charging up an attack. And then I release it all out at once mentally. That's how it works. In contrast, I can converse, and make meaningless blows with, my opponent for free all the time, e.g. read the damn game and give commentary. But actually making ~impact~? Actually putting force behind the punch? No, I'm the hero, I don't do that sort of thing so wildly. That's...not a good way of describing it. At all. Even remotely. But it should give you the vaguest ideas of how my brian is wired. When I say that I have no time...I fucking mean I hav e no time.

I DO give reasons a plenty. My commentary in-thread as I go along. I'll quote stuff, give my input on it. That's just what I do. That's me giving stuff. Because that's just how I work. How I operate. My mind has been so saturated with town PMs that I just...I just can't put that effort in without that strong drive and lack of time means lack of drive. It's like...to continue the metaphor, the hero has fought so many enemies, that as THE hero, they're basically one of the strongest beings in the universe, and as such, they...they just don't put their heart into fights unless needed.

[mastin2]

THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEASN IN THE CONTEXCT OF FUCKING MASTIN. MASTIN.

mastin...
...she's not going to get this

Yes, but YOU should.
And you know all too damn fucking well what I'm talking about. You have your lurking, rather lack thereof amongst others. (There's more towntells to you than just that, btw.) I have my own, too.

[mastin2]

You don't know the way my brain is wired. You just dont'. If you tinkt at I'd have that sort of thought. It's not that simple. The da ve read is...how do I explain it? The ndave read is important. It's a builtup thingymajiggy. I hold it close to me. Like a cheesy shonen protagonist charging up an attack. And then I release it all out at once mentally. That's how it works. In contrast, I can converse, and make meaningless blows with, my opponent for free all the time, e.g. read the damn game and give commentary. But actually making ~impact~? Actually putting force behind the punch? No, I'm the hero, I don't do that sort of thing so wildly. That's...not a good way of describing it. At all. Even remotely. But it should give you the vaguest ideas of how my brian is wired. When I say that I have no time...I fucking mean I hav e no time.

I DO give reasons a plenty. My commentary in-thread as I go along. I'll quote stuff, give my input on it. That's just what I do. That's me giving stuff. Because that's just how I work. How I operate. My mind has been so saturated with town PMs that I just...I just can't put that effort in without that strong drive and lack of time means lack of drive. It's like...to continue the metaphor, the hero has fought so many enemies, that as THE hero, they're basically one of the strongest beings in the universe, and as such, they...they just don't put their heart into fights unless needed.

I thought of a better way to say it. In my games, the worst part is the mental fortitude, the endurance, the willpower. I get paranoid, I get apathetic, I self-doubt, second-guess, and whatnot. I procrastinate, I say "not that important", I neglect the game by not giving it my full, all because of that lack of gathered willpower. And that's the time I'm talking about lacking. I have...issues...sucking it up, taking a deep breath, and jumping off the ledge to plunge. That leap is something that doesn't come easily--it takes willpower, willpower that takes me time to gather. So when I say that I don't have the time, what I'm really saying is that I have the time to play, but I don't have the time to play as I SHOULD be playing, if that makes sense.

[mastin2]

Okay, so, I'm a tracker.

Gonna be blunt: don't buy it. Not for a minute.

That having been said...

unvote,
VOTE: davesaz.

Because while I'm about 80% sure eyestott's lying through his teeth and is actually scum, I have this annoying little policy of not lynching PR claims, however untruthful I think them to be, on D1, particularly given the chance (albeit remote) of the 20%.

[mastin2]

Town-reading me to appease won't work.

Fuck off. I don't do appeasement. You're town because you're fucking town. Not because I fucking want to defend you. (Believe me, with YOUR attitude I'd be all too happy to have reason not to. Problem is, I don't because you

are

town.)

How am I strong town if you think everything I post I could post as scum?

While almost nothing you've posted I don't think is fakeable as scum, as in could theoretically come from a scum-you, that does NOT mean I see it as null, because just because it CAN doesn't mean I think it WOULD. In short, while it's nothing that is impossible to fake, it is still rather town overall, particularly since I don't think it'd make sense to play this way as scum. Also, given earlier posting which

was

stuff I don't see scum faking, town.

Reasoning for Town!Killa? Reasoning for Town!Vettrock? Reasoning for Town!Anen?

Null and void for killa/Vettrock given that I'm reevaluating them. Anen's in the same boat as you, though. I like what Anen is saying.

Do you think it's likely that both eye/dodgy are scum?

I doubt it.

439 - Mastin, you JUST had dodgy in your scum pile...but he's giving you town-vibes. Have I missed something?

Scum pile != scumread. dodgy was in the pile, but not really as a scumread, just as POE compared to the others.

[mastin2]

509[/post] - Another 'can't remember' moment from Mastin. A convenient way of avoiding having to explain anything.

Like fucking hell it's convenient! Do you think I

want

to have people give me the face because I can't remember? You think that I'm masochistic (or, rather, BAD) enough as scum (because, seriously, "I can't remember" is the laziest fucking possible scumplay ever and is the work of AMATEURS...no, that's an insult to amateurs because even most amateurs fucking know that if they gave "I can't remember" it'd get them lynched) to not have reasonings?

When I say I don't remember.

I fucking don't remember.

Nothing convenient about it; it's a fucking hindrance.

[mastin2]

Jesus Christ. I fucking hate it when my scum-reads start contemplating voting my other scum-reads.

Hey, genius, guess what that means about your scumreads?

[mastin2]

the slight scum lean is a result of her f-bomby reaction to small-negligible things which feels a little disingenuous, has she done this as town before?

Finished? Hmm...
Starting here, but picking up speed as I went. Most recently completed game.

It begins here, though admittedly I slipped a couple of 'damn's before.

The REAL ranting begins later, but look here for one of the first.

Barely present and hard to see through the hydra, but plenty here as well.

I'm giving a shout-out to this post,

Edit: Mastin, you're talking about the game where you got lynched for being detrimental to town while the scum laughed about it right? Scum always think townie players look town because they've got confirmation bias up the ass, don't listen to them. Or hindsight.

Same thing to you, Shadow, since I know that this is your head posting.

Do NOT talk about that game arbitrarily.
Just...don't.

You weren't there.
You weren't there. So don't you DARE pass your damn judgment on it so casually.
You have no idea. No fucking idea. What that game was like. You THINK you do.
But you don't. You just...don't.

...but it doesn't really take off until here.

It begins here, though as a hydra, can be hard to see.

And those aren't even the best examples, but they're the only ones I can give you that're relatively easy to find and link. There's newbie games where I go ballistic, too, and plenty more where the above come from.

You tick me off, you get HELL to pay for it, because I have an honor code in a game. I do NOT tell a lie. So you call into question anything, and I'm going to give you hell for it. When I say something, that something is true. That doesn't mean I can't be scum. I can be. But what I say is never a lie. Ever.

[mastin2]

Mastin seems way to0 confident. A quick look at some of her other games where she was town, it is consistent. Didn't see any scum games.

That's because none exist.

"What. What do you mean, no scum games exist?"

I simply haven't rolled scum in ages. It's always been town. 2014 was the year of the town role PM. (It continued into this year with this game, by the way, but EVENTUALLY, that streak HAS to end. Just not this game.) Any scum meta you'd use would be so hilariously out of date as to no longer be relevant.

(Also, vettock looks like scum to me, but just a quick guess; if the default were 25%, this would be like 30%.)

[mastin2]

,i think the vote should go on:
copper/vettrock/killa/anen

I'll take another look at copper and anen, but I wouldn't vote there right now because while I may vaguely understand the reasons for copper maybe being scum, I simply don't see either as being scum now. I also don't really see killa as scum, though I don't particularly see killa as town, either. (Just a guttown at this point.) Would vote vettock, though.

[mastin2]

Epic link fail.

the slight scum lean is a result of her f-bomby reaction to small-negligible things which feels a little disingenuous, has she done this as town before?

Finished? Hmm...
Starting here, but picking up speed as I went. Most recently completed game.

It begins here, though admittedly I slipped a couple of 'damn's before.

The REAL ranting begins later, but look here for one of the first.

Barely present and hard to see through the hydra, but plenty here as well.

I'm giving a shout-out to this post,

Edit: Mastin, you're talking about the game where you got lynched for being detrimental to town while the scum laughed about it right? Scum always think townie players look town because they've got confirmation bias up the ass, don't listen to them. Or hindsight.

Same thing to you, Shadow, since I know that this is your head posting.

Do NOT talk about that game arbitrarily.
Just...don't.

You weren't there.
You weren't there. So don't you DARE pass your damn judgment on it so casually.
You have no idea. No fucking idea. What that game was like. You THINK you do.
But you don't. You just...don't.

...but it doesn't really take off until here.

It begins here, though as a hydra, can be hard to see.

And those aren't even the best examples, but they're the only ones I can give you that're relatively easy to find and link. There's newbie games where I go ballistic, too, and plenty more where the above come from.

You tick me off, you get HELL to pay for it, because I have an honor code in a game. I do NOT tell a lie. So you call into question anything, and I'm going to give you hell for it. When I say something, that something is true. That doesn't mean I can't be scum. I can be. But what I say is never a lie. Ever.

Fixed.

Why do you not buy it?

Because the claim feels faked-as-hell, and the whole handling of it far moreso; it feels like a claim made to save your ass, rather than your actual role. It is, also, exactly as you said, the role you'd claim as scum, and you SAYING you know it's the role to claim as scum doesn't change the fact that it's the role you'd claim as scum.

In fact, why have you been scumreading me?

Little stuff here and there, mainly gut.

[mastin2]

The heck?!? Why isn't it being fixed?

Epic link fail.

the slight scum lean is a result of her f-bomby reaction to small-negligible things which feels a little disingenuous, has she done this as town before?

Finished? Hmm...
Starting here, but picking up speed as I went. Most recently completed game.

It begins here, though admittedly I slipped a couple of 'damn's before.

The REAL ranting begins later, but look here for one of the first.

Barely present and hard to see through the hydra, but plenty here as well.

I'm giving a shout-out to this post,

Edit: Mastin, you're talking about the game where you got lynched for being detrimental to town while the scum laughed about it right? Scum always think townie players look town because they've got confirmation bias up the ass, don't listen to them. Or hindsight.

Same thing to you, Shadow, since I know that this is your head posting.

Do NOT talk about that game arbitrarily.
Just...don't.

You weren't there.
You weren't there. So don't you DARE pass your damn judgment on it so casually.
You have no idea. No fucking idea. What that game was like. You THINK you do.
But you don't. You just...don't.

...but it doesn't really take off until here.

It begins here, though as a hydra, can be hard to see.

And those aren't even the best examples, but they're the only ones I can give you that're relatively easy to find and link. There's newbie games where I go ballistic, too, and plenty more where the above come from.

You tick me off, you get HELL to pay for it, because I have an honor code in a game. I do NOT tell a lie. So you call into question anything, and I'm going to give you hell for it. When I say something, that something is true. That doesn't mean I can't be scum. I can be. But what I say is never a lie. Ever.

Fixed.

Oh. Think I got it.

[mastin2]

Wait, you said you'd lynch me in a heartbeat, even though your reasons are "little stuff here and there, mostly gut".

Yeah, and?

If you had to kill one person and keep the day going at the current everything, minus one player, who would you kill?

Dunno, depends. I really don't like the vig role. I might use it to kill dave, or might use it to kill someone lotsa people are talking about like dodgy. I'd want info gained.

[mastin2]

(Honestly, as a vig I'd frankly just no-kill and play as if vanilla unless I deemed it necessary to make a kill.)

[mastin2]

Also, so if you think this is how I would have fakeclaimed as scum, how do you think town tracker me would've claimed?

Similarly, but more genuine? Hard to explain.

[mastin2]

So.

I skimmed to current.

I REALLY should have something to day.
I really should be doing something.
But in my mind, there's just this vast...

nothingness

. A numbness to everything right now.
It's really something you either know because you've experienced, or don't know and can't understand. But, well...it's not apathy, it's more like players' block, in that...I should be giving some sort of content, something, some sort of acknowledgement to the people who addressed me that I've heard what they say and have thoughts...but there's nothing there, meaning that'd be a lie. I'm just...blanking out right now.

[mastin2]

In general, I've found the best cure for that is for day to end and us to have a flip, so on that note, probably gonna switch to copper, but...well, I just don't know. I have no thoughts on town or scum. But this isn't null. This isn't ambivalence. Null is there's thoughts but no read. (Except true null, when there's no posting thus nothing.) Ambivalence is feeling both ways. But copper right now is absolute absence of thought.

I suppose there's some ambivalence in joining, in that I half-expect I'll regret it and I'm half-expecting I'll regret

not

joining it. But I'm not sure how to better explain it than that.

[mastin2]

Does the nothingness extend to your scumread of me?

In a sense.

There are some things you posted that I could answer, but just don't feel like. There are others that I should be able to, but can't. Then there's some that I just wouldn't be able to fully answer and could just struggle along to maybe make a bad attempt that's largely incoherent...but which could only be so if not for the block which makes it impossible.

...That made more sense in my head.

[mastin2]

@Mastin
I don't think I'm the kind of player you want to write off out of apathy in case I am town and I think you in particular have a good shot at deciding whether I am town or scum here so put some effort into it and decide.

Gun to head?

Town.

[mastin2]

Also, killa's posting on this page just looks town to me.

Also, also, should be noted that when Anti posts it makes me think copper's scum but when copper posts it goes right straight back into town. :/

[mastin2]

(That means the read has evolved from absence of thought into ambivalence, by the way. )

[mastin2]

Hey, Anti. How important is it that we sort copper today?

Given the above, I'm kinda just wondering if there's someone else we can lynch today that would make us both happy, while giving me a night to think over copper.

'Cause not a chance in hell I'm getting a good read on copper in the next couple of days.

If, and I do mean, IF, we have another read we can both agree/focus on, then I'd say we can both go there and save sorting copper for tomorrow.
If not (which'd suck), then sure, copper, but this is the option that I think I'd be most comfortable with: lynching copper if there's no alternative, saving sorting copper for tomorrow if there is.

[mastin2]

Will lynch bettock in a heartbeat.

[mastin2]

772 - Mastin, do you have usually have trouble reading logical players?

I find it ironic that the guy saying "fuck meta, ESPECIALLY self-meta" is asking me to talk about something that is...essentially, meta.

But to answer the question...yes, actually. I DO have trouble. I've had trouble ever since 2009, in fact, back in my Mastin days. (Admittedly, I was a VI back then, butstill.) I just didn't "do" logic. I understand it better now, but I use

reasoning

, not strictly speaking 'logic'. Players who are incredibly logical and methodical have always been a blind spot. Some, I've come to learn to read; most, I can't. It's generally players who rely more on instinct that I can read, because logic, being objective, is easy to pull off as both alignments, thus hard to read and naturally I find it on a subconscious level to be "suspicious" in that I always seem to want to write scum motive to it. INSTINCT, being subjective, is something incredibly difficult for scum to fake, thus it's much easier for me to catch a faker. (This is why contrary to what Anti may believe, I do in fact have more than just activity to determine his alignment. He can't fake-scumhunt worth a damn.)

im still liking a tean/vettrock team..

Do you have a third?

[mastin2]

I like how you think you claiming vengeful makes you town.

I actually can buy that. It's not outside the realm of possibility.

Like, at this point, I could lynch copper if absolutely needed, but I would MASSIVELY prefer not to.
For a start, if copper's town, scum need to kill him anyway, and the later his ability is used if we decide to lynch him, the better.

I also think the claim was done in a rather pro-town manner, too. So were I to lynch him, it'd be believing him to be town, who'd use his ability, and that's something I find sub-optimal. I'd rather just lynch someone I think is scum.

[mastin2]

I also am still unsure if Mastin is town for it or she was happy killing me off during the night so I wanted to share this, personally I am leaning town.

Hate to burst your bubble, but I totally didn't see your softclaiming. I thought you were town on other merits. (Sooner or later, people will realize that I really, really SUCK at seeing PRs. I townread Vezok and Bert, INDIVIDUALLY, in Organic Chemistry, not because I caught them softing masons.) Generally, I'm the one who DOES the softing.

[mastin2]

there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's.

Pretty sure that math's wrong.

For the record, tean/vettock/eyestott/dave is where I'm looking at for scum mainly. Obviously, they can't all be scum, but I'm preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure we've got at least two in there, and with luck, three.

[mastin2]

I'd go stronger with this, but I feel this is a player that you need your ducks lined up in order to attack, especially D1. I've had a bad experience with that but can't give details for the obvious reason. And hell yes, this approach (wanting ducks lined up) is survivalist. It's also consistent with how I play so bite me if you don't like it.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaah,
And you wonder why I scumread him.

[mastin2]

I am most likely going to vote copper, as a few of his posts have been pinging me as quite suspicious. I will try and find them.

For the record, I'm basically just assuming eyestott's scum at this point.

[mastin2]

i actually..........
could do tean
mastin and tth, what say you?

Weakest of my four reads, but yes, I could do tean.

[mastin2]

@mastin what where the alleged scumtells that led you to vote dave in the first place?

Well, it

was

just general overall scumminess, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, I want to make a special note to Dave since I'm unlikely to remember 'til postgame where I should be telling him:

Dave

, I was gone during the last day of deadline yesterday. But had I not been...I'd have unvoted. Me, the person strongest pushing you, would have unvoted off of your play that last day. Why? Because

you were actually being town

. I don't really have the ability right now to give you a description of what you did so differently to cause that change, but I think even you have a general sense of what you did that was different. So, uh...basically, free advice from me: do what you did the last day, ALL the time. You'll not regret it.

Also, awkwardly enough, I was going to come in today voting eyestott.

Best thing I have off the top of my head,

Vote: vettock

,
But I clearly need to give the game a rethink. In class right now, so no time right now; bit distracted. But do need to take another look at things.

[mastin2]

mastin was in that Touhou game I linked, so it also tells you a little about interactions between Anti and mastin.

He's not the only one, TTH. You read that game, you know how ANTI interacts with me.

[mastin2]

if this were the case, tth and i's bodies would be laying in a ditch right now w/ multiple stab wounds.

^That. There's NO player in this game I would kill over Anti. None. Don't give a damn about eyestott's tracker claim, or copper claiming vengeful. If I was scum, I'd want them dead N1.

So basically, your options are that we're both scum, HARDCORE buddying blatantly in-thread (in which case...lol), or you have to recognize that Anti and I

understand

and

get

each other. The scum might believe that it's possible to push a mislynch through on Heartless, or a mislynch through on me. But as long as one of us lives, so too shall the other because we won't allow it. Heartless is town. Period. I know him, I understand him, I can see his scumplay a mile away and instinctively grasp his townplay. So you want him gone, go through me first.

The scum will inevitably realize the error of their ways, though, and nightkill us, since, well...you know. Someone who can't be mislynched, and has both the potential and probability to hound the scum, not someone the scum want around. Yes, the dave lynch was a mistake, and yes I think copper is also town making Anti's push there

also

a mistake, but oh trust me. He's coming back, and I'm gonna be listening as I also come back. (Right now, though, my synergy's probably not so great since I'm still holding over reads from yesterday. I'll do the reset later when I have time to actually, well, reset.)

[mastin2]

Reads I don't think I'll be letting go of, Wicked and beast.
Heartless is the only 100%-never-changing read, though.

All other reads are fair game; they may or may not change, but are being reset to zero. (Even copper, though I'm

decently

certain he's town, in part because Heartless is alive; if copper were scum, I'd expect Heartless dead yet with copper as town, leaving him alive makes sense to create/maintain Heartless/copper tension. I do owe another look at him all the same, though.)

[mastin2]

Mastin, 1090 – why are you sure that Heartless is town? Personal experience?

EXTENSIVE experience, yes.

It goes beyond personal experience. This isn't one or two games. This is built upon dozens upon dozens of games. (Fun fact, Antihero might not even remember this, but his scum meta really hasn't changed that much since 2008/2009. One of my first scumgames ever was replacing him in Lynch All Lurkers mafia, and if I looked at his scumplay then, I'm almost positive it'd be nearly identical to his current scumplay.) I've seen him as scum. On COUNTLESS other occasions, I've seen him as town. Now, I don't believe Antihero deliberately sabotages his scumplay...but he

does

make it really, REALLY obvious he's scum, in part because he's really, REALLY good at making himself be town.

Activity's not the only tell on him, but it's the most immediate. Antihero as scum lurks, lacks investment, is prone to flaking, and when present doesn't give much content in the first place. Antihero as town racks up one of the highest post counts in the game, is highly invested, quite a bit abrasive, commands a fair amount of control in the game, and hounds in on people.

That's just the basics. Fundamental basics. Of his play. If you knew him, you'd know it goes into SO much more. So I can tell you, he is town.

[mastin2]

This seems a little bit convenient and hard to believe. Can you help

me

understand why you would have unvoted? You must have seen something strong if you were willing to unvote a player (so close to deadline) that you had been strongly scum reading all game…

Okay. So before, dave was kinda beetelgeuising. (Or however it's spelled.) Coming in when in danger, but otherwise lurking. Not providing much content, and when giving content, not putting much push in it.

On that last day, true, dave if scum

could

have been fighting to save his life...but very, very obviously

wasn't

. He was giving reads, and reasoning, and basically spamposting. He gave more activity in that short window than basically the entirety of D1. Furthermore, he did so without an ulterior motive: he knew he was getting lynched, thus, there was no directing the lynch elsewhere. EVEN IF it was possible, he stubbornly insisted on voting me instead of any actual viable wagon, effectively further condemning himself. He displayed a fair amount of confidence, borderline arrogance (not to mention reads that were very emotionally driven and inaccurate, but clearly coming from a town mindset, i.e. thinking both Anti and I were scum), in his callouts, making pleas for what to be done after he died. He was very active, he was giving lots of reasons, he was interacting with everyone...he was doing everything that I'd look for in a town player, ESPECIALLY at deadline, all at once.

Damned right I'd have unvoted had I been around. If I gave the description I am giving right here, right now, about dave, unvoted him, and you were on the wagon...wouldn't you? It's the reason I owe dave an apology.

[mastin2]

So you are saying you would have dropped off and caused a NoLynch?

If necessary?

Yes.

But I'd have tried to speedwagon you instead. If you didn't get lynched and the day ended in a no-lynch, oh well. But I would never in a million years have willingly supported the dave lynch after seeing his play the last day. Only problem was, I was working during deadline. (Well, working plus square dancing. I get up at 6:00 AM PST. I get home at 10:00 PM PST. I literally don't have a Sunday day. It's there every week except occasionally the second of the month where I have work ALL day, except a break from 2-5 that I usually use to take a long nap but occasionally spend mafiaing. It's an inconvenience, but I DO have weekend V/LA marked in my sig for good reason.)

Dave wasn't town in hindsight; dave was town at the time. I read chronologically so I didn't know what he flipped until I got to the mod post. But I 'knew' what he flipped because I could tell with everything he was doing. It's all irrelevant, though. What I was saying wasn't meant as a message to other players. I was speaking specifically to dave, to tell him how awesome he was in that last day and give him some advice (which he may or may not feel like taking out of bitterness/spite, but is good advice all the same), not to you.

[mastin2]

Oh, one more question: have you ever apologized to a player you’ve mislynched or tried to mislynch before?

All the time. As town, it's an obligation of mine to apologize. If I take place in the lynching of town, I have failed.

...Now, different story as scum. I'll apologize, but I keep it entirely in the mafia QT/PT when doing so. "Sorry I lynched you, but, yaknow, scum, kinda had to and all that", type of stuff.

[mastin2]

This addition however seems to show a little too much awareness of her own meta.

Well,

duh

. NO player on MS.net is more aware of their own meta than me. None. Trust me, I've seen a lot of players who

think

they know their own meta, but they don't.

Frankly, the thing that makes me dangerous as scum IS that I, legitimately, do. In fact...I know my meta so well that I have a metametagame. I have a perfect understanding of my circumstances, "situational awareness" as I call it, which makes me able to adapt on the fly to be whatever I need to be. I do this as both town and scum, but it's most notable in my scumgame because it's most effective therein.

...Now

all that said

, you'd think the obvious conclusion from this would be that metaing me is worthless, that I cannot be read off of past game experience. And to some extent, you'd be right. Try metaing me from a small sample size of less than ten, you're guaranteed to fail. But believe it or not, you

can

get a grasp of how my mind operates. Just because I'm aware of my actions as town/scum doesn't mean I can change them--and even IF I can, just because I can doesn't mean I will. (Because breaking my natural habits as scum takes a tremendous amount of effort.)

I can put it this way...it's partially me being me, and partially me probably having played more games on ms.net than any other player (the most conservative estimate would place it at low-140s. A higher estimate would be 175-200 by this point), but with experience came wisdom and knowledge, which I've put to good use, but with said experience also came habits that players sharing extensive experience with me (a-la Antihero) can pick up on.

In short, try to meta me this game, guarantee you'll fail.
Try to meta me ten games with me from now, and you won't even NEED to do the meta; the knowledge needed to read me will already have instinctively seeped in. (Well, it does for MOST players, anyway. The more logical the player, the harder this seems to be. They don't seem to "get" the concept of situational awareness meaning my towngames are vastly different from one another and my scumgames are vastly different from one another off of the different contexts.)

[mastin2]

By the way, call it gut if you must, but REALLY strongly thinking Aneninen is town right now. Don't expect an explanation for this one, though; I'm not sure the words would ever be right.

Mastin, 1110 – Hmmm... I remember Antihero fighting with me in another game. We had a vehement argument there and both of us were town. Do you mean something like that?

Actually, the opposite. Anti and I jive really, really well. We get synergy going quite well once we stop being paranoid about the other being scum. Now, that doesn't

always

give us accuracy, but it does far more often than not.

(I mean, it feels like an over-explaining.) Those, who have played a lot with her: is it typical of Mastin as scum?

Overexplaining? Yep. That's a scumtell of mine, alright. Not a very strong one, though. Depends on the timing. In the RVS?

Lynch me with fire

. (Well, not necessarily RVS, but general earlygame.) In newbies and most opens? Probably not. (Because I like to impress newbs and put on a show, which I normally don't do for players who know me. With players who know me, far more often than not, I'll just lazily go about, and occasionally spring a long-winded ramble, kinda like this. Said rambles are generally a towntell, though, because while overexplaining a read is a scumtell, going on massive tangents is a towntell. Albeit not too strong of one, but stronger a towntell than the scumtell. If I had to give percentages, overall, overexplaining would be 57.5% scum, whereas rambling would be 62.5% town, with 50% being the nullline.)

Uhhh...

"But I'd have tried to speedwagon you

(Vettrock)

instead."

– where? You mentioned 30% in 678. "Would vote Vettrock" a post later. Okay, you said

"Will lynch bettock in a heartbeat."

in 781 but you hadn't you been talking about lynching Copper seven posts before or so? In itself, I would believe the rest of that post about Davesaz but it feels like "pushing Vettrock without pushing him

too

hard". And the mirror of this behaviour might be in 1133 from Vettrock...

Everything you're listing IS me pushing vettock? Like, I discussed lynching copper, but mostly in the academic sense that if I did so, I'd do so consciously believing I wasn't lynching scum and that his vengeshot would be an okay compensation. Yet when it comes to dave, had I been around, the bit about having a vengeshot wouldn't apply--thus, I'd be unwilling to allow it to go through. Especially given readstrength--copper was probtown, but dave at the end of yesterday was basically at conftown levels of townning it up. I really, really wish deadline was a day later so I'd have been around to tell you this stuff then rather than in hindsight, but you have my word.
Absolute WORD.
100% guaranteed town-scum-I-don't-care-I'd-never-violate-this-vow-EVER, that everything I'm saying I'd say at the time, too, and it's not his flip that is allowing me to say it.

So damn right that given the choice between a no-lynch, a townlynch, or a vettrock lynch, I'm going after vettock.

Mastin, Vettrock – check the spoiler They may be scum together too.

Helpful hint.

If you think I'm scum with someone and I'm voting said someone (and/or they're voting me)...
100% of the time.
LYNCH THE SAID SOMEONE

FIRST

.

You'll never regret it.

[mastin2]

Maybe this is just town self imploding and it's Tean/Beast and either Vettrock or Aneninen doing nothing.

At this stage, I GUARANTEE you vettock is scum.

Tean's an

extremely

likely candidate for being scum as well.

Ditto for a third; haven't compiled all my notes, yet.

[mastin2]

Heartless
copper223
Aneninen
Wickedestjr
beastcharizard
BlueBloodedToffee
killapenwin
Tean samargo
vettock

Town to scum. Doesn't necessarily mean that vettock-tean-killa's the scumteam, but should give you a fair approximation of things right now.

[mastin2]

(By the way, you needn't answer this if you don't want to, but, how old are you?)

My age is my most cherished internet secret. More valuable than my appearance (which I used to not care about, until last year when I got all self-conscious about it for ~reasons~), my name (same as my appearance, only far moreso), my location, or any other facet of my life. It

is

, however, generally known my agerange (18-34), with more specific numbers available if you track them down but especially in the speakeasy.
...In fact, in the speakeasy (because I place trust in scummers not to abuse the knowledge they'd gain), there's a link to my blog...in which, I mention my age multiple times. (Because the link to said blog is only in the speakeasy, and said blog while implying it's me never EXPLICITLY says it's me, I consider the blog to technically be anonymous, thus, share it freely in there, as that was one of the aims.) If you're that interested in finding the answer, get speakeasy access from the user control panel, track down the thread "Mastin's Musings", find the link (iso me for it), and then archive binge 'til you find an answer. (My very first post for the blog had it, and I've done so at least once in January. It's a daily blog, you see.)

As for the "helpful hint..." what'll happen if we lynch Vettrock and he flips scum?

It's proof that, IF I were scum, I'd have powerbussed him. Which as anyone familiar with me knows (anyone reading my academy work alone would know, but I also wrote the "Stop bussing!" article for damn good reason), is...well, not

impossible

, but incredibly improbable.

Basically, if you think I'm scum with someone and I'm voting said someone, you're most likely wrong about me being scum with said someone, but said someone is very likely scum. You'd be AMAZED how many times this has held true.

And what'll happen if he flips town?

Well, then, I suck, and would offer no resistance to being lynched.

Your readlist. I'd be really, really surprised if Penguin were scum. But, the position of BBT disturbs me. You were literally raging on Day1 that he's town. Now he's the 4th scummiest player. What has changed?

eyestott flipped town, and so did dodgy. BBT isn't

low

on the readslist. It's that the other players in the game are

higher

.

[mastin2]

Heartless
copper223
Aneninen
Wickedestjr
beastcharizard
BlueBloodedToffee
killapenwin
Tean samargo
vettock

Like, Heartless is town, period.
Copper I've felt is town for multiple reasons, among them being his push on Heartless (vice-versa, too) and Heartless still being alive, general townposting, and the claim which I found to be town.
You, Anen, is like I said nearly impossible to explain, but I think you've got a fairly good grasp on why anyway.
Wicked's still QUITE town-looking to me.

All of those, rather solid.
Beast is the first read I'm not as sure on. I still

think

he is town, but I'm not ABSOLUTELY sure he is. Needless to say, I think lynching him would be a mistake, and at the very least, he should be sorted much later.

Then you get into the bottom four. BBT's been town, but isn't as town as the others are. killa's been null to me most of the game, and while I did lean slightly town, is weaker than BBT. Tean's been null basically the entire game (may or may not have fallen onto the scum side at points; I don't remember if I did or not, but if so, couldn't have been by much), and then there's vettock, who while not a strong scumread has been null or well on the wrong side of null the entire game.

Thus, vettock lynch.

[mastin2]

@Mastin
Did you consider Vettrock's read on Eyestott yesterday? Why does scum Vettrock say he is sure the tracker is town?

...

...Words.
Failing me.

...

...Okay. Let's try this. Why

wouldn't

scum say the tracker is town? Especially if that's the scum nightkill. Think about that for a bit.

[mastin2]

@Mastin
It would be really bad to give as the only town in your list the guy who claimed, as scum, that is a red arrow pointing at you that you knew his claim was legit thanks to prior information on the slot, it doesn't even buy you towncred, I think you are being disingenuous here so the vote can stay.

100%.
Telling you as a damn IC.
Ask any experienced player their opinion.

You'll find maybe 1-2 outliers of every 10 or so that will say otherwise (but in their say of otherwise, only about 33-50% would do so in the same way you do), but the VAST majority of people will tell you, rather simply...scum don't like to throw themselves into conflict. They prefer townVtown fights. They prefer

not

to butt heads with town PRs...because that encourages said town PRs to INVESTIGATE THEM. Or shoot them. Or

not

protect them when protecting them can save their lives and protecting them automatically means less a chance of the scum's own nightkill failing. If the scum antagonize the town PR, then all of this bad stuff happens.

What happens if the scum, then, instead buddy-buddy the town PR, believing them 100%?
They don't get investigated, the town who are suspicious of the player get investigated instead, townVtown fights ensue, scum can watch them, laugh at them, let them thrive, safe from vigging (because town're likely to get vigged), and in a position where they're likely to be protected.

It's scumplay 101.

[mastin2]

Mod: I voted vettock in one of my first posts today.

Found it, got overlooked somehow. Will be fixed in next VC.

1148 - Mastin, here you guarantee that Vettrock is scum.

and then there's vettock, who while not a strong scumread has been null or well on the wrong side of null the entire game.

Then you said this...what's up with that?

At this point, "not a strong scumread yet null or well on the wrong side of null the entire game"

is

a guarantee of being scum, ESPECIALLY given the town players: Heartless is town, Anen is town, copper's pretty dang town, and Wicked's town. That,

alone

, limits the options quite a lot. For vettock to be town and you to also be town would require a beast/killa/Tean scumteam, which while I suppose not impossible feels incredibly improbable.

Ergo, vettock is scum.

Can you explain your Anen town-read as well?

Unfortunately not. I just...really, really, REALLY think this is Anen's towngame, not Anen's scumgame.

[mastin2]

/ugh i'm in sad sack mode right now...

help
me

Anti, get yer ass in the game. I trust you to work well with TTH, but no offense meant to TTH, I simply don't trust TTH to get the game solved by herself. Especially since she isn't working with me like she could be, whereas you always do. I don't expect you to take center stage and override her (unless she's scumreading me, in which case, yes I do ), but you SHOULD be in here helping me.

Because I could actually use feedback. My readslist is

not

perfect. I can feel it isn't. And there's no player here I trust more to be able to help refine it than you.

[mastin2]

Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale.

Helpful hint, you have absolutely no reason to trust me on this right now, but this is a MASSIVE towntell for me. On the "how to read Mastin: the flowchart" I made (I need to track down the most up-to-date version), it's one of the primary items, in fact. The reason? Town Mastin doesn't have a clue what's going on. Her reads are in a state of constant flux, specifically because of that, and her own self-doubt, paranoia, and whatnot betrays her, as she constantly second-guesses herself and reevaluates, rethinks, and redoes stuff. In contrast, scuMastin has absolute control of the game. Whereas town-Mastin is defined by inconsistency, scuMastin is defined by consistent, solid, controlled, calculated play. She keeps the same reads as much as possible, because it serves to antagonize the least number of players. She is calm, collected, and cool. She is strategic. She is focused. Her thoughts are logical and precise, because she has a good handle on the game, and thus, her mind does not betray her.

Or in short, the difference between town and scum is the difference between chaos and order. Now, obviously, this isn't absolute. There have been towngames where I've felt in control, rare as they may be. There have been scumgames where I was chaotic, either by circumstances or in one or two cases me faking my town chaos convincingly. But it IS a fairly solid general guideline. I know what I'm doing as scum; I'm just taking my best guess and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as town.

I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)

Indeed I do. Fairly certain I said so already in this game, too, the reason why: because my play in games is fluid, thanks to situational awareness. While I might not know what's going on as town, I can generally feel out the game and have an idea for what will work best, adapting to have a playstyle specific to that game. It's mildly helpful, since it lets me hone in on scum better, but situational awareness mostly helps me as scum, because as scum, adapting my play to the game when I have more info than my town self does is

lethally

effective.

Anti can verify everything I'm saying here, and TTH to some extent can verify most of it given the differences between the Voided games in spite of me being town in both. Not sure if anyone else has the experience to do so. Beast has played a lot of games with me, but I'm not sure the knowledge of me has seeped in. Wicked I know has tried to seep in the knowledge of me, but I don't think he has the experience.

Mastin! How sure are you about your Vettrock read? Plus, if you had to lynch anyone but Vettrock Today, whom would you choose and why?

I'm a good 90% certain about vettock: not

absolute

, but pretty damn confident.
If not Vettock, I can easily say Tean would be my lynch.

Either of BBT/killa could be scum at this point, and beast theoretically could be even if I think otherwise, but Tean and vettock are the only two that I'm actually ~suspicious~ of.

[mastin2]

Hi. Approaching 4 AM. Don't expect much from me. Anen's case is shit, though.

My best guess at the moment is Mastin2/Tean/Beast and Heartless.

Then vote Tean; I'm "bussing" them.

[mastin2]

Because it's by far the most likely scenario given the claims and the kills.

In order for there to be two scum and one SK, there would have to be TTTTT. Given that we know that we have at least one I, and one P, that leaves no other power roles. Since copper is claiming vengeful, I'm not sure how he can come to this conclusion unless his claim is fake. Assuming his claim is valid, there has to be three scum and a serial killer: TTT. If there was a vig, that would mean for his claim to be true, it would have to be IPKK?TT. I think the TTT is more likely, so I don't think there is a vig.
I am leaning towards copper, mastin2 and BBT as the scum. Two of them also happen to be voting me, but I at least like to think it is not solely a OMGUS vote on my part. Mastin seems the most likely to me.
VOTE: Mastin2

Seriously, though, this is fucking

opportunistic. as.

hell

.

*evidence copper is probably scum*
*votes Mastin*
*Especially when both Copper and BBT want to lynch me*

[mastin2]

Her reads are weird.

The day my reads

aren't

weird is the day I'm actually scum.

a.) She strongly suspected dave for all of day 1 only to distance herself from the bandwagon at the start of today.

Which I'm fully aware is generally considered a scumtell yet did anyway because I don't give a damn, it needed to be said anyway.

c.) She town reads beast for meta despite the tell being very easy to fake.

Hey, I DID say the read has weakened somewhat.

She wants to sort him later even though we are a day before lylo…

And if lylo's a day later than now, then it's later.

And, yeah. Wagon on me, scummy-as-hell.

All the players on it basically are saying "Oh, yeah, mastin's scum", while giving

each other

as my partners...

and not pausing to join anyway

.

Not all scum, obviously, but absolute MINIMUM of two.

[mastin2]

Derp. I mixed up my schedules; I DO have time today, but not much. (Two hours across the entire site, not that much time given how...ah, "passionate", I can be in some games...... )

Because it's by far the most likely scenario given the claims and the kills.

In order for there to be two scum and one SK, there would have to be TTTTT. Given that we know that we have at least one I, and one P, that leaves no other power roles. Since copper is claiming vengeful, I'm not sure how he can come to this conclusion unless his claim is fake. Assuming his claim is valid, there has to be three scum and a serial killer: TTT. If there was a vig, that would mean for his claim to be true, it would have to be IPKK?TT. I think the TTT is more likely, so I don't think there is a vig.
I am leaning towards copper, mastin2 and BBT as the scum. Two of them also happen to be voting me, but I at least like to think it is not solely a OMGUS vote on my part. Mastin seems the most likely to me.
VOTE: Mastin2

Seriously, though, this is fucking

opportunistic. as.

hell

.

*evidence copper is probably scum*
*votes Mastin*
*Especially when both Copper and BBT want to lynch me*

I would consider voting BBT, copper or beast, but as they have no existing wagon, I selected you.

Uh-huh.
You would consider voting the players that there is much stronger evidence for being scum by your own admittance, but choose to be on me.
In spite of the fact that.
Copper and BBT both want to lynch me.
And heck beast might feel like it if not for recent events making him unlikely to be wishing to lynch me. (AKA, last time, didn't go so well for him.)

Opportunistic. as.

fuck

.

Frankly, this wagon is so.

SO

.
Hilariously scumdriven.

That I basically want to call beast autotown anyway, bump copper down to where BBT was before. (That...might make more sense in my head.)

[mastin2]

@Mastin
I don't like your wagon, I'll check Tean again when I have time.

THEN WHY THE FLYING

FUCK

ARE YOU STILL ON IT?!?

[mastin2]

Mastin, 1204 –

"Anen's case is shit, though."

– After I had posted my case, what kind of pigeon poop was that?! If you're town, explain why my case is shyt! As for your 1206: it's not your wagon which is scummy. Your gameplay, including things I've just mentioned here, is.

Because by your own fucking admittance, every point you don't like about me is off of my playstyle...

which is

playstyle

, not alignment-indicative.
Thus, shit. You may think it's anti-town, but it's how I play, it works, it nets scum, and it's what I do. So no, I'm not going to defend myself against your points, because there is nothing in there that I feel the need to defend.

But give me a break; it was 4 AM. I wasn't going to break down and quotestripe the wall to tackle each individual point as to why.

The recent posts from Vettrock and Copper tells me that both of them are Mafia. (Also: both of them were on the Davesaz-wagon, both of them are voting for Mastin, and they've never voted for each other.)

I'm not

certain

copper is scum.
Vettock's posting, however, combined with copper's own, though, has certainly made me consider the possibility.
At this stage, I'm also heavily considering BBT as scum and that Tean via POE

might

be town. killa I'll need to take another look at.

The problem is that I have too many scumreads (5) and too few townreads (3).

Hey, Anen. You're stealing some of my points before I can post them; I'm making some of your points before you can. Know what that means?

Same boat; we're both town.
Helpful hand: Heartless is town, 100%. You're town, 98.75%. Wicked is playing so well that frankly if he's scum I'd just give him the win, and rests at 95% town.

Beast is lower, at around 67.5%.

But that still leaves me with a bit of a large pile: killa, copper, BBT, Tean, and vettock. If you can drop your scumread on me, we can sort this shit out. I actually think that we're fairly synergetic players. At least when we have the same alignment. So if you can trust me on me being town, we can work together to get something coherent together.

[mastin2]

The recent posts from Vettrock and Copper tells me that both of them are Mafia.
If so, Beast can't be the SK, although he may be scum with Copper/Vettrock.
Tean could be scum with anyone. I can see no useful interactions with the players mentioned here (apart from not liking a Beast lynch).
As for the others. Penguin, BBT and maybe Wicked are town.

Wicked is town, so there's that. Heartless is also town because you can trust my ability to read Anti and know he is town.

I can give you one of penguin/BBT as town (two, if there's no serial killer and either only two mafia or Tean as the third), but in exchange I'd ask for beast to be town as well.

Basically, I think our efforts today are best focused on copper/vettock (especially vettock, given the former's vengeful claim), with Tean as an outside possibility who may or may not be scum, but whose lynch would provide further POE on the scum.

[mastin2]

Behave Mastin, Jesus Christ.

I've had a bad weekend, one of my major townreads voted me (and though having unvoted is still scumreading me), a second until-recently townread additionally is voting me, my largest townread has also voted me this day phase (albeit admittedly the TTH half and no longer being on me), and come back to see myself as the largest wagon with some hilariously atrocious reasoning attached to it with a scummy-as-hell backing.

I'll be as bitchy as I want to be, thankyouverymuch.

[mastin2]

Actually, I can definitely give both killa/BBT as town. I haven't given them proper isos, but BBT's voting vettock which is at least a good start, I think I was misremembering something that made killa more suspicious than he should've been (thus killa's more town), and Tean's playing their cards a bit close to their chest, and may be waiting to hammer, say, me.

[mastin2]

BBT.

If copper's scum, he's lying about being venge.

[mastin2]

You're right, it's partly about your playstyle.

But

, you said that I might think it's anti-town. You also said that you have several playstyles. Need I explain how bad the situation is? You must know too that if we mislynch Today, there may be a LyLo Tomorrow. Why on Gods' Green Earth don't you choose a less anti-town playstyle?

Because

I am town.

...That made more sense in my head. Basically, I do this on instinct. I don't consciously choose a playstyle for a game and go, "hey, let's do that", and then suddenly stop doing it. (Except when I do. But even then, that's something that happened instinctively: the forced playstyle was dropped in favor of the more natural one, but the natural one was no more town than the forced one. My own fault, but

technically

speaking, I got mylo-mislynched off of it.)

Simply put, my style is what I think works best for catching and lynching scum during a game (except when I'm deliberately forcing a style for reasons), but while it's something I think is right, the actual usage of it has no thought put into it; it just...well, is.

Also, you were on both of the Davesaz and the Eyestott wagon, you were the one who pushed the Davesaz-wagon hardest. These are facts.

Also fact: my scumplay has, traditionally,

avoided

hard pushes unless I was desperate or actually believed what I was saying. (e.g. legitimately thinking AP was scum in Anything Goes, desperate to get a non-scum lynch in Attack on Titan.) You can track down any scumgame of mine. In any scumgame you find, I'll make a push, but I won't make it hard. (Well, with the exception of AP's bastard game, where I hardcore bussed D1. But I mainly did that, honestly, for the trollz, and because my scumbuddy sucked, and because I thought I could get away with it and ultimately did. And it was a bus anyway, meaning on all town lynches after that I was cruising and not nearly pushing as much.)

Not-so-fact-based, of course, is the

reason

why, but it should follow fairly decently if you have a hold on me by now what drives that, and that's simple. Town-me doesn't give a damn. I'll push whoever I push, and I have absolutely no shame in making the push. I may regret the results OF the push, apologizing to players I have misread, but I will never. EVER. apologize for having made the push in the first place, because while ultimately wrong, I saw something and I pursued it and it gave me further information--good info or bad info--on the game, so there's nothing to be sorry for.

ScuMastin, on the other hand, likes subtlety: avoiding the spotlight. Know what spearheading a mislynch does?

It draws attention to you

. Mostly negative attention. Why not let the town destroy itself? Why not let the town mislynch itself to oblivion by subtly planting the seeds of discord? This is, in fact, my modus operandi. I can now say that I've got a completed scumgame, theelkspeak's faith plus one. I only came in for lylo, but even there you can see it: I didn't push DGB hard. I let the town become doubtful of themselves. And used that to ultimately be positioned to hammer DGB, something I couldn't have done if I had pushed her. It's a bad example because it was too brief of one, but it's the most recent. Left 4 Dead is the go-to example. In it, I basically directly caused PeregrineV (town) to fakeclaim a guilty on BBMolla (the town cop), outing Molla AS said cop, all because of the actions I had pulled that placed the seed of doubt in him. I subtly directed attention onto Molla with some of my trolling. (Among them? Molla had a guilty on me but never claimed it. I

claimed scum in-thread

the moment I saw it, though. ACTIVELY. CLAIMED. SCUM. And one of my trolling posts, I "slipped" a message that was "supposed" to be a PM to the mod about my "scumbuddy" Molla faking a guilty on me. The wifom of why scum would roll over and die, least of all ME, ate at PV.) My pushes were never made strongly, because I didn't want to give the town info. (I deliberately made myself a sacrificial lamb as to allow my team to win--we did. Handedly, once the cop was outed.)

"with Tean as an outside possibility who may or may not be scum, but whose lynch would provide further POE on the scum."

– I don't like this. We don't have time for PoE lynches.

PoE lynches, no. AN PoE lynch, yes. Singular. Tean is my POE candidate for the lynch. I think they're scum by POE, thus, could lynch them--if they're

not

scum, then it means we went wrong somewhere, have that info available, and can reassess, further honing in on the scum via POE. It's not my

preferred

strategy because the outcome is not nearly as beneficial either way in my opinion. It IS, however, a

viable

option.

You said that we're "fairly synergetic players". And if I dropped my scumread on you we could work together. You might say the truth, but I strongly think that you want to fool me. Why are you telling this to me? Why not to your other townreads?

Because I'm actually trying to work with you and not against you?

To Heartless, Wicked, or maybe Beast?

Well, I AM trying to work with Anti, but he's annoyingly not around often enough to respond. Wicked I am interacting with, but while I townread him, I don't think we have synergy at all--frankly, he and I have basically opposite reads. Similarly, while beast is a townread, I don't think there's much I can gain by working with him, largely because I don't think there's any way we can really work together that well.

Push come to shove, I can probably strongarm beast and Heartless into helping me lynch basically any player; they'd likely be willing to trust me enough to sheep given it's not lylo. I can obtain a lynch without working with others; I hold the skills necessary to lead a town, and sort-of already have. It is, however, not my preference. I HATE dominating over a town. What I prefer doing is working

with

the other members of the town, and the greater the synergy...the easier that is.

...Thus, you.

I wish I didn't think that you would like me to drop my scumread on you.

No shit I'd like you to drop the scumread of me. I'm town, wanting to work with you, and if you keep on thinking I'm scum, you're inherently sabotaging your own efforts to work with me whether you realize it or not.

By the way, I saw Copper fake-claiming in another game (although they had Nightkilled me before). The scums won, we hardly had any chance.

Fairly easy victory for me. Like I said, town basically destroyed itself. Most of my work was already done; all I had to do was to make myself not obvscum, which was easily accomplished by letting the town fight and not pushing hard myself.

[mastin2]

Anen, too lazy to quote, but yes, I think you're on the right track.
Mine's off of play rather than his potential mindslip (which I think is legit), but yes, I think copper is scum, regardless of vettock's alignment.

Vote: copper

.

[mastin2]

I have decided that one of you or Mastin is scum.

Impossible.

Either we're both town or neither of us are.
Simple as that.

Anti's town. (TTH is a bit iffy, but I'll let Anti vouch for her.
)

[mastin2]

you are dead either way.

Anen, I think your townread on BBT is wrong.

Because preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure that BBT-copper interactions right here are scum-scum.

Like, it's a tonality thing, but read this exchange. This post is just one in the series; read it all.

Does it in any way, shape, or form look sincere?

Not to me.

[mastin2]

VOTE: Mastin

All leading up to this, by the way, when momentum begins to shift onto copper.

It's faked-as-hell.

They're both scum.

[mastin2]

If I were just whining and my argument had no merit you would not have switched vote so quickly.
VOTE: Mastin

Seriously, they're not even trying to hide it.

Guarantee you.

This is like one of those faked lylo exchanges where they go through the motions of bantering, as a formality, but as soon as they can pull it off safely, they work together to seal the game.

It should be noted additionally that copper does indeed have a habit of claiming gutsy town roles as scum, as has been referenced by Anen, so yes, him claiming vengeful is something that's perfectly logical for copper to do as scum.

Copper is scum because what he says and what he does isn't matching up. His posting is filled to the brim with contradiction after contradiction. He's shown a very, VERY likely mindslip to his claim being fake, and he's being opportunistic.

BBT is a likely scum candidate because of just how fake their dialog is and how BBT is being even MORE opportunistic: on the vettock wagon, on my wagon, saying copper's scum, it's all there.

[mastin2]

Like seriously.
In my parts, we call that type of exchange?

Being a cheeky scumfuck

.

Where's the fire? The ~passion~? The belief, the push? There is none. It's just fancily-worded fluff disguised superficially to look like content--not even active lurking, just...stuff. Stuff meant to justify their positioning, but which if you bother to analyze reveals quite the contrary.

I don't know if vettock's scum anymore. Could be, could be town. But copper? Definitely not. And I really,

really

don't think BBT is. Their exchange is just so...so...cheekily fake. Like, happy, upbeat, laughing-their-asses-off, tauntingly not legit.

I'd like to ask the experienced half of the playerlist (people like Anti and Wicked) to go tell me I'm wrong. Because...I really don't think I am. Their tone is just...that of a cheeky scumfuck.

[mastin2]

Yes.
Yes, it is.

The BBT-copper interaction is just...well,

wrong

.

Do it from the other side, too, Anti. Copper on BBT.
Enjoy the read.

[mastin2]

Mastin is lining up to vote me. That's pretty clear.

Not my preferred lynch, but yes. I would lynch you.

[mastin2]

So you're probably scum with copper.

[mastin2]

I'm against massclaim; it'd take every read I trust unanimously overriding me (and/or it being well underway with most players already claimed) before I'd support.
Late, so no explanation, but might give one tomorrow.

[mastin2]

Also, I claim Town Hider.

Yeah, this is bullshit, especially given you didn't claim a N1 target.

[mastin2]

I hid behind Killa last night. Killa is conf town.

Okay, to be fair, you did here, butstill, why did the thought of using your hide as an investigate not occur until this post, AFTER you had already done the hide?

When using it as an investigate (with a 'crumb) is standard hider play?

(That said, fully believe killa's town, just not you in claiming killa's town.)

[mastin2]

I'm a creature of change. Nevermind. BBT's town. I can buy the derp behind the hide, and given this...

VOTE: BBT

...is probably not a bus, BBT is looking much better.

...Okay, so second-guessing my revision, so not "BBT is town", so much as "BBT can be town". In other words, I'm not sure BBT's town, but I no longer think BBT's scum.

Copper, however, remains scum to me.

[mastin2]

Scum can't have a hider alive to have the chance of confirming another person as town.
Watch my wagon.
PEdit - I don't give a fuck about set-up.
Regardless of claims, you and Vettrock are fucking scummy.

Fuck my second-guess of calling BBT town, I'm liking his posting so much here that I'm calling him town for now and don't give a damn if it's wrong; I don't support a lynch on him today.

[mastin2]

This is an interesting thing for you to say given Organic Chemistry, the game where your bandwagon was all town. Why do you think this bandwagon is different?

Because I'm mastin and my ego can't fit in the entirety of the internet.

(But seriously, because Organic Chemistry was the exception proving the rule: when I am town, damn right any attempt to lynch me is gonna be scumdriven. Organic Chemistry had odd circumstances surrounding it, which are absent from this game. There, players knew me but I had just changed my style. Here, most do not, thus, this is their first full introduction to me. Thus, scum're going to think, "Hah, don't know why she's held to be so high and mighty, she looks awfully mislynchable here", and hop on...only to later realize it's a trap. )

[mastin2]

At this point, I'm actually growing more confident in my beast/copper/Tean guess.

Could buy that, actually.

[mastin2]

Umm...hello, guys?

[mastin2]

Yeah.
I would much

prefer

the Tean slot claim first, with getting replaced as no excuse, but given as it's not something I can control and the slot's likely scum anyway, no harm in saying it. VT.

[mastin2]

Anen, aside from Wicked and yourself, the only one unclaimed is Tean. I'd prefer Tean, but, y'know.

Of you two, I trust you

slightly

more than I trust Wicked, but like I said, that's the difference between 97.5% and 95% town; you're both town, so I don't really care about claiming order.

[mastin2]

By the way, goes without saying, but at this point, I kinda...don't feel like a claim will change my opinion of the Tean slot. Any claim they make, be it PR or VT, will still make me feel like they're scum.

[mastin2]

Anti, not exactly buying beast's attitude anymore if you didn't notice.

Still, copper's scum, soooooo...yeah.

[mastin2]

tell me i'm pretty

You're pretty, you're oh so pretty~

[mastin2]

I really like Wicked's 1414, not sure how I missed that.

Oi, I made it first, just in less specific words, more general terms, and at the time thinking you were scum, but made it all the same!

[mastin2]

I really like Wicked's 1414, not sure how I missed that.

VOTE: Copper

Little bit, yeah.

[mastin2]

Mastin, Wicked and Vettrock; look at this VC and tell me what you think.

Well it assumes you're town and you put Heartless in red when they're conftown as far as I'm concerned, but otherwise, legit.

Now it doesn't exactly tell you much other than that Anen is more town than Anen already was, at least by itself, but it DOES make for fair speculation that dave's wagon formed to counteract the copper wagon.

(Ergo, copper's scum.)

[mastin2]

Should I end the day?

That he didn't = scum hoping beyond hope not to get lynched, rather than town who knows that they can shoot. (And depending on the mod, may have access to twilight-talk after the lynch. Not exactly sure on that one, but some mods have it.)

[mastin2]

i seriously hope it isn't mastin b/c tth is going to kill me...

Not me. Swear, I'm not scum.

(...Not that saying that means much, but it's true; I'm not. )

[mastin2]

as sk we shot at ppl we scum read.

Just for the record, as a serial killer, my policy is to play 100% as if a town vig. (The way I figure it, SK is just town. I kinda consider drawing SK to be a massive "screw you!" from the mod, so I give a screw-you right back by being as pro-town as possible. Also applies to third party like lynchers and whatnot, but I digress.)
...And my current policy as a town vig is to never, ever, EVER shoot because vigging

sucks

.
As there was a second kill last night and no vig claim, that means it's a serial killer...who DID kill. Which I would not.

There's also the bundle-load of play-based reasons I'm not groupscum, too, among them being that I'd have shot Heartless 100%, and if not Heartless, would have shot...oh, I dunno, who was I strongly townreading at the time, copper? Probably copper, then. Who I

wouldn't

shoot is mislynch-bait dodgy, or personal-scumread eyestott.

Dig up a single game of mine where I was scum.
And I nightkilled a player I was scumreading.

I'll be impressed, 'cause I sure as hell can't remember any.

[mastin2]

Town Vig. Shot dodgy.

Right-o. Serial killer.

[mastin2]

So in theory there isn't a SK here. which means 1 PR is still lying.

Possible.

Titus is either a vig or a serial killer; there's no doubt in that. In either case, though, she's not groupscum, so shouldn't be a focus I don't think.

[mastin2]

So who did Dodgy jail?

I dunno, we could always ask eyestott and hope that he tracked dodgy!

(Titus, sometimes you can be a real derp. )

[mastin2]

Let's lynch Copper

You'll note my vote hasn't moved.

Also, justsayin', while I do agree there's probably some sort of breaking strategy somewhere...the game's gonna be so much simpler if you rely on at least some basic scumhunting skills and not pure number crunching.

...In which case?

...Lynch copper. Every other player I can feasibly (albeit in many cases to varying degrees of probabilities) see as town right now.
In no scenario do I see copper as town.
And even if he is, then him shooting BBT is as mentioned a surefire win, fairly certain.

[mastin2]

It's late. I'm distracted. But...

Well, the situation looks grimm. Tracker and Jail-Keeper killed night-1.

I can still point out newbscum tells, and I do mean, classical, fundamental, "well, that sucks", been around since the days of JEEP TELLS, scumtells, in this.

Teapot's scum.

[mastin2]

Hi Mastin, I'm not new.

Then that makes you, and your posting, all the more worse.

[mastin2]

VOTE: BBT.

As a starting point.

Mind's not in the game right now, not really. But I want BBT lynched.
-Many players said BBT vs. Copper wasn't townVtown.
-BBT being a hider confirms killa as town, a result I'm now doubting a bit.
-Gives us a ton of info aside from that, on the setup and therefore other claims.
-Plus to some extent POE. If copper's not scum, who can be?

Not Heartless. (They're town, no matter what.)
Not Anen. (Basically the same.)
I've leaned against Wicked. (Will need to relook.)
I've thought vettock was town since the claim. (Again need to relook.)
And Titus if scum would be a serial killer, not groupscum.

Kinda only leaves BBT, beast, and killa. (Though I'll admit, Wicked and vettock need another look.)

[mastin2]

If one of my townreads is wrong, it's Wicked.

[mastin2]

Right, did some basic number-crunching.
I pretty much ignored previous number-crunching, since I'm stubborn that way and like to do it my own way.

IPKK is, if Titus is town, confirmed.
IIPKK is, if both Titus and Vettock are town, confirmed.

So assuming Titus is town. (Safe assumption.) Assuming vettock is town. (Not as safe an assumption.)
IIPKKH is only possible with three VTs if I'm doing my math right, but given that it'd require killa to be one and I trust Anti and Anen to both be town, it's impossible.
Thus, BBT is almost certainly a liar.

[mastin2]

Teapot gets an honorary win I hope.

Given that it was mod error and technically not a modkill, Teapot should.

But we have to win first, and your BBT vote is an excellent place to start. (Though frankly, I think it's bussing, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.)

[mastin2]

I have not checked the math but are we now at mylo or lylo now that copperpot died?

No, right now we're effectively at where we'd be if copper was lynched, before he would take his shot. So instead of him taking the shot, we are taking the shot for him.

The math always allowed (assuming the worst-case scenario) for tomorrow to be mylo/lylo.

[mastin2]

It's late.
I don't really feel like saying why right now.

But Wicked's BBT's partner.

[mastin2]

well this inexplicable counterwagon on a vt claim isn't suspicious at all....

Yep.
My thoughts exactly.

[mastin2]

Btw, if I am Maniac, I will shoot Mastina.
If I am Teacher, I am shooting Wicked.

Uh, no offense, but you really shouldn't be shooting at all.

[mastin2]

Don't have the time right now, but,
-Beast I really don't think is scum. The wagon on him is hilariously scumdriven: Wicked, BBT...it's not good.
-BBT

is

scum.
-Lynching a PR is the correct play today.
-People forget that we're dangerously close to having three scum ENDGAME us, which is why additional night actions are dangerous. Titus shouldn't shoot. Let's assume for a minute that BBT is town. If he WERE to die because of his hide, then that's yet one more dead town player. During the night. Meaning potential endgame. So actioning = very bad.

[mastin2]

Seriously?

Seriously, Anti, it was

you

?
SERIOUSLY?!?

...AND Anen?!?

My GOD I sucked.
...Doesn't matter, since I said yes to the joint win, but I was playing as if town the entire game!
(And Wicked, until the latter days of yesterday, was one of my top townreads, too.)

That hurts.

[mastin2]

At least I was right that beast was town and that the lynch on him was scumdriven, AND right in my warning to BBT to

not

hide (for the record, that post was not a scumslip because it had the word "If" in there, and IF is an important word), butstill.

I was aiming to lynch scum the entire game.

[mastin2]

i seriously hope it isn't mastin b/c tth is going to kill me...

Not me. Swear, I'm not scum.

as sk we shot at ppl we scum read.

Just for the record, as a serial killer, my policy is to play 100% as if a town vig. (The way I figure it, SK is just town. I kinda consider drawing SK to be a massive "screw you!" from the mod, so I give a screw-you right back by being as pro-town as possible. Also applies to third party like lynchers and whatnot, but I digress.)
...And my current policy as a town vig is to never, ever, EVER shoot because vigging

sucks

.
As there was a second kill last night and no vig claim, that means it's a serial killer...who DID kill. Which I would not.

There's also the bundle-load of play-based reasons I'm not groupscum, too, among them being that I'd have shot Heartless 100%, and if not Heartless, would have shot...oh, I dunno, who was I strongly townreading at the time, copper? Probably copper, then. Who I

wouldn't

shoot is mislynch-bait dodgy, or personal-scumread eyestott.

Dig up a single game of mine where I was scum.
And I nightkilled a player I was scumreading.

I'll be impressed, 'cause I sure as hell can't remember any.

For the record, this was me effectively SKclaiming.

I said I wasn't scum, because I don't consider serial killers to be scum. But 1658 was me, rather implicitly, claiming serial killer, which should've been obvious after Titus claimed vig, explaining the second kill. Because I did exactly this, not shooting either night and treating my role as if a town vig.
But jointwin is fine with me.

[mastin2]

Well, I did warn BBT

not

to hide. Very easily could've been town and would've made the exact same post.

Still a bit flabbergasted that Anti and Anen were scum. I didn't know whether it was you+BBT+a third (killa or Wicked, lean to Wicked), or Wicked and a couple of others, but I was leaning towards the former simply because of Anti/Anen's play.

[mastin2]

mastin what made you change your read on me?

Part POE, part that you were pushing people in a way that made me almost positive that you had a scum agenda.

And what made you decide not to shoot last night?

Same thing which made me not shoot night one: because I was playing as if a vig (even with Titus being a vig), and the way I play vig is to...not shoot. I don't like killing people.

Plus I was thinking N1 that eyestott could track me, and N2 that vettock could.

[mastin2]

Titus also shot when she shouldn't have; the mafia roleblocking her is what allowed me to have a joint win, so thanks for that, but had they not, that would've been an instant scum win.

Seriously, I messed up by townreading Anti and Anen (not to mention my earlier Wicked townread), but I know my theory, and HIDING WHILE IN MYLO and SHOOTING WHILE IN MYLO during the night are BOTH stupid ideas,

yet alone

doing both at once.

Town's ONLY shot at winning was for you to both do nothing, with me also doing nothing, leaving just the mafia's kill, and a 3v3v1 with the 1 siding with the town.

[mastin2]

(Which I default to, by the way, but given it was ANTI and ANEN with a side of WICKED, jointwinning with them is far more lucrative than siding with the town to ultimately lose. )

[mastin2]

Btw,
Nomination if you think they earned it.
I certainly do.

[mastin2]

And by the way, my plan was to claim SK only if a PR (other than Titus) died during the night, and just one.
Two would, as we saw, leave me not needing to claim; everyone would already know.
None (other than Titus) would mean a lylo where I'd have to struggle to determine whether the PRs were town or scum. If scum, I wouldn't need to claim, but if town, I'd need to claim SK just to stop town from voting them and allowing a scum quickhammer.

It's also another reason why I knew shooting nobody was the best option. Short of Titus and the scum both shooting me, I knew I was living, so what I needed to MOST do is avoid shooting town. Since I didn't know for sure who the scum were (even though I suspected Wicked), I simply couldn't risk the kill even if it was my wont to do so.

[mastin2]

I got two right (Mastin and Heartless) and one completely wrong (Wicked).

For the record, getting the SK right doesn't count for much, given that groupscum is who you needed to get.

Lynching me either day would have been horrible for the town, because while the town lynched VTs instead of me, I was also the best guard against the scum basically going on cruise control--I forced them to actually have to think. My death would also have made people think, like I did, that it was more likely (be it via probability or by play) two PRs were scum lying rather than both PRs were truthful. Also, given that I no-killed and the final day was 3-2-1, if I had been lynched, it'd be 3-3, AKA instant scum victory.

So I was actually keeping the town alive.