Mini 1637- Pokemon Generation I uPick (Game Over)

[pieguyn]

will prob read tomorrow. is there anything I should know that affects how I should read things?

btw I can already say that not_mafia interactions make me as conftown as an IC; will explain the reason when I'm not phonebound.

[pieguyn]

first thing I want to address is:

I have the ability

Psychic

. if I use it, I get a neighborhood the next day with everyone else who used the same ability. N1 BBT along with NM used this ability. the neighborhood basically went like this (paraphrased):

NM: "my role PM was worded poorly, I thought I was a neighborizer. I think mod decided neighborhoods are pointless, not going to post here since you're my #1 scum read."
BBT: "why am I scum?"
NM: "read the thread"
BBT: "just tell me why"
BBT: "why do you think this is a mod decided neighborhood?"

that was it. just 5 posts save mod posts.

tl;dr of this is NM clearly didn't get how his role worked and thought he was a neighborizer instead, which doesn't make sense if both him/me were scum that had this ability. plus I have another ability that I won't claim (which I used last night instead of this) that would have been a looooot more useful for BBT to use if he was scum here, as opposed to using this with a partner for whatever reason.

strictly speaking, I guess you can argue that I'm just making this up, but I figured I'd point it out anyway. I also think if anyone else is Psychic, they can claim right now and be conftown the rest of the game. anyway, I have a lot of shit to do over the next few days, so I probably won't be able to read until at least tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

also @ Boon, FF

I actually don't like 1131 very much, since it's more up to you to decide if you accept the reasoning or not as opposed to me for trying to claim I'm conftown, but meh. not really going to pay attention to it until I read fully

[pieguyn]

I didn't use Psychic last night. that might be why Seo's action didn't do anything.

also my logic isn't that just being a Psychic makes you conftown; it's that there wouldn't be more than 1 Psychic on the scum team, since NM didn't understand how the role worked, and thus that any remaining Psychic would be conftown.

[pieguyn]

this isn't a slip

in fact I think Seo is prob town for this. it's a weird feeling to have 3 town reads I feel somewhat good about without even reading the game

[pieguyn]

Day 2 Seo claims to have used psychic.

wait, seriously?

in that case, this might actually be a slip. fwiw, I was thinking what had happened was that Seo had sent a PM to the mod sometime after the game started asking for clarification on his ability, but then after the game started he had forgot what the name of his ability was (but not the fact that he had used the ability he had on N1 and that he used it on BBT) and thought it was Psychic instead, in which case the PM he was referencing earlier that he looked at also would not have been the D2 ending PM which explains that.

besides that I thought the way he reacted to it looked kind of town

I looked through his ISO and I didn't find him claiming Psychic on D2. can you point me to it?

[pieguyn]

Pie. Explain what you see as town. All you keep doing is saying "X seemed town" without explaining why.

it's gut, but he came off like he was genuinely embarrassed at screwing up (which I guess you could say is alignment-null given he screwed up either way, but a scum slip is not exactly something I'd expect scum to react openly about), and I thought the fatalism about wanting to replace out/not caring about being lynched in response to that also looked genuine

(I still haven't read yet, so I have no intention of solidifying a read based on just this. it just happened to be what I thought in response to those posts)

[pieguyn]

also still don't particularly think that's a slip. it still makes sense if he had forgot what his ability name was at that point.

if anything, I think Seo would be more aware they didn't have the same ability if they were actually partners.

(albeit this is my still-haven't-reread opinion, but I really do not feel optimistic about this)

This is from the beginning of my digging. You see this as being open and honest about fucking up? I see this as deflection.

well, yeah. from a town POV, he wouldn't have been aware at this point he had fucked up, and would be seeing you as picking on something irrelevant since he doesn't get your point.

[pieguyn]

ISO'ing Marquis and combined with vettrock's posts I think vettrock-slot is prob town. I also like Bert based on recent posts.

I could get behind a Boon lynch. I haven't yet read in context (and I'm not sure if I'll ever get around to fully reading the game. probably when I decide I can't get any more reads from not reading the game lolol), but from what I could tell of what Wisdom posted, a lot of his pushes were exceedingly weak.

[pieguyn]

it looked like typical town lurk

scum Marquis would have looked a lot different from that. his usual MO when scum lurking is to play up the ATE and make long-winded posts that don't actually have any content in them in an appearance to look town. and even though he didn't do anything, it's not like he didn't have a complete lack of stances, either; he at least threw some thoughts out there when he had them. I think he legit just didn't give a shit this game, leading to what happened.

it is possible his play changed since the last time I saw him as scum, but meh

plus I think vettrock's posts look kind of town. I think scum would be slightly less likely to walk in and immediately accept someone as pseudo-conftown. what are your thoughts?

[pieguyn]

So you are a redirector. Again this doesn't make sense because you used your ability on BBT and sent it to someone else, yet he still ended up in the psychic link with NM. Explain how you think this happened. Also, who'd you redirect to?

not to step into your line of questioning, but you're wrong here: psychic doesn't have a target. it's an active ability with no targets. everyone who uses it gets the neighborhood.

We all should set a time to collectively ISO (part joking but part not). Like homework being due or something

I'd legit be up for this if you are. re: Marquis, my record at reading him isn't strictly great. I misread him the last 2 times I've played with him (quickness & O569), but I still feel pretty confident at reading him; quickness was more due to him stepping up his scum game than anything, plus I wasn't there the last 2 game days, and there was a lot of confusion in O569 over me/GIF being in a hydra as well as large disagreements over certain key reads (which was more my miss than anything, since he was the one who was right).

actually now that I'm reading it again I'm having a bit of pause because of how he kept playing up the idea that he was behind in the game, which fits more with his scum mindset, but meh. outside of that, I don't sense any scum intent in the way he was lurking.

do you have any experience with town Marquis getting really apathetic? I'm curious to see if he's done this as town before.

[pieguyn]

btw I think everyone with Psychic should use it tonight to confirm we have it. if we're clearing people with Psychic, we don't want people lying about having it.

[pieguyn]

I hate boon's vettrock vote. Can pie get in here and talk to me about my reads?

sure. what do you want to talk about?

[pieguyn]

Boon, I swear to god, if you pull this shit again where you come up with literally whatever reason you can to justify whatever push you're making as opposed to saying things that are reasonable, I'm lynching you into the ground. you should really be able to come up with something that makes more sense than "a bunch of people are trying to discredit me, one of them must be his buddy".

(and I didn't comment on this the last game bc both of us were scum, but I could not care less if it's your general playstyle; the moment you're writing someone off bc they do scummy things as town you've already lost the game.)

[pieguyn]

cursory meta-dive of Wisdom indicates that he usually handles his buddies by either town reading them or putting them as scum when necessary but never actually hard pushing them. this is based on like 2 games and one of them was Capcom where his partners were Tammy and BRO (-.-), so I don't know how strong this actually is.

I'm also curious to know what ppl think about him replacing out due to apathy. I don't think it makes sense he'd be bussing a partner the whole game, and then suddenly get apathetic for no reason after doing it.

[pieguyn]

I have too many town reads :<

I've thought about Marquis more and I think I was wrong re: my initial reason for town reading him. in fact, I'm pretty sure the way he kept playing up the fact he was behind is more a sign of his scum play, plus he did literally fucking nothing except for one list of town reads, none of which went explained. there's also the way he kinda-sorta defended NM at a few points without committing to a hard stance. but then I think vettrock's posts look town and I'm back to square one with this.

assuming nothing went terribly wrong somewhere, I think scum should be within {Flames, vettrock, Boon, TS}, but I need to investigate further

[pieguyn]

My reads. Why is seohyun not under consideration and what d you think of wis-nm interactions?
What do you think of vettrock's play?

I'm ruling Seohyun out bc I'm pretty sure she would be aware that she didn't actually have the same role as NM if they both were scum here. it's kind of gut, but the whole shitstorm that happened earlier came off genuine to me.

as I said, I don't particularly think Wis-NM interactions look like scum x scum. I think scum Wis would not be likely to suddenly get apathetic after bussing a partner the whole game, plus I took a quick look through his meta and the way he handled NM doesn't particularly fit with how he handles partners.

I'm not sure if I like the way you flip flopped on Boon, but another part of me thinks it's completely understandable (bc lolol). I was having problems bc any scum team I could think of would be shooting themselves in the foot right now, but what you just did was the kind of thing I was thinking scum might do here and it sets off a red flag. what is making you doubt that Wisdom/NM's interaction doesn't look like partners?

[pieguyn]

oh and I think vettrock's play looks town more or less for how he walked in here, immediately cleared me, and then cleared all the other ppl I was clearing (which is the kind of thing I refer to when I say scum would be shooting themselves in the foot), plus most of what he did makes sense even if I disagree with some of it.

[pieguyn]

dodge. should be around later today

[pieguyn]

wisdom's pushes feel pretty genuine, he was on notmaf first basically all the time but gets distracted by shinier things such as micc and me. He's consistently wanted notmaf dead and I think that if he were doing this as scum he'd just hard bus day 1 and get all the credits instead of this soft bussing that eventually contributes to his lynch.
Then again the 'remind me to blacklist you postgame' is really, really weird.

Boon's play always is chaotic, but I feel it's rather geared to scm survival than to town figuring things out chaoticly here.

So it's weird: I've never had this large a townread on wisdom, but I still think the slot might very well be scum. In my earlier evaluation, I didn't really take day 3 play into account a great deal.

I think I want to pursue flames today, that scumread is a lot more substantial.

at this point, I want to go for Flames too. he's pretty much the only person in here I haven't town read in any way.

I get the impression Boon for whatever reason thinks it's a good idea to play in a survivalistic way as town when pressured, as opposed to doing anything a town player would actually do. however, I don't have any experience to back this up. he pulled this shit when I was scum with him and we had ppl saying it was his town meta and that his posts were "oozing town motivation", though, sooooooooooo /shrug

my strategy with reading his slot is to just ignore everything he's doing. as long as I have compelling reason based on Wisdom's posts, I don't really care.

vote: Flames

[pieguyn]

also I want ppl scum reading Boon-slot to give me their thoughts on 1363. for reference these were the games I looked at:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=59485
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60046

I didn't check that many, so I might be wrong here. interested in knowing what ppl think

[pieguyn]

Pie did u read this game?

nope

It's interesting to note that vettrock's only case on me is that I was NM's scumbuddy and didn't bus him.

I was about to ask you why you thought vettrock and Boon made sense as partners given their reads on each other, but I remembered Boon at the very least has a meta of always hard bussing his partners. -.-

who do you think the partner is if it's not Boon, and what do you think about my thoughts about the Wisdom/NM interactions (1363)?

[pieguyn]

VLA until thursday

currently visiting everyone at CCCP and am currently phonebound; will be able to get to a computer eventually, but I prob can't do much.

[pieguyn]

So you think there is more than 1 scum in the neighborhood and that I took away my own vote.

I still haven't ruled out the possibility it was a town ability, even though

whoever used it should claim it if it is

. that way, if no one claims, we know for certain you were targeted with it by scum

it doesn't look like I'll have a chance to put any effort into this game before deadline. I'll probably end up sheeping whichever wagon on any of my POE reads seems viable. if tomorrow winds up being MYLO, I promise I'll read through the entire game and that I'll have enough RL time to do so.

[pieguyn]

calling it as I see it, POE gives {vettrock, Flames}. I still haven't fully read/analyzed the stuff re: tracker claim, though.

p-edit: have you given your thoughts on Wisdom/NM interactions anywhere (specifically, my 1363)? if not, I'd like to hear your opinion.

[pieguyn]

Pie 1549 was for tier

yeah, I know. but you're calling Boon scum regardless, right?

I'm mostly looking for opinions on Wisdom re: NM D1, since I think it points to Wisdom-slot being town and I didn't see if you gave your opinion on it anywhere.

[pieguyn]

Overnight, I thought pie was most likely to be scum. If he is, the game is over. If he keeps playing, we can regard both me and him as confirmed town.

in addition to the fact that I was not informed as such, I literally do not buy this at all. "next day's lynch" is conveniently 4p MYLO. by the time you'd be able to be "confirmed", it'd be too late to do anything about it.

soooooooo tell me about how this supposedly makes you "confirmed town"?

[pieguyn]

overnight I had reason to believe everyone was town besides TS, and I was thinking I didn't actually like TS's end-of-D3 play. in addition to completely avoiding the vettrock wagon until it was obvious it would go through, I think that last-minute push on FF was more an attempt to capitalize on the FF/Boon shitstorm that was going on. I feel good enough voting here for the time being.

vote: TS

[pieguyn]

Flames682 <- town via vettrock push and I actually liked his end of D3 posting.
Bert <- town via general play
Seohyun <- town for Psychic role and being entirely unaware his role was not the same as NM's role, assuming he confirms having it in the neighborhood today.
Boonskiies Wisdom <- town via Wisdom/NM interactions.

TierShift

looks like it's time for me to wake up and start doing shit. in the meantime, any questions?

[pieguyn]

also don't really buy that you thought I was the most likely to be scum after saying I was "absolutely town via predecessor". the only thing I could think of that would make you change your mind was vettrock being scum, and I get that I didn't vote vettrock, but I outright stated I'd sheep whichever wagon was likely to go through and that I thought vettrock was scum via POE. plus, I for the most part wasn't active when all of that happened. /shrug

if I was scum here, I would have bussed in a way that basically gave me no town cred from it. call it self-meta or WIFOM if you want, but it goes entirely against how I bus as scum. Boon in particular should know that if I bus, I do so with the intent to get whoever I'm bussing lynched, explicitly because I know if I make a soft push on my partner and then don't follow through with it it would look terrible.

also don't really get why you're calling me not being proactive a scum tell when you saw me lurk an entire day phase in GIF's micro (including being reluctant to read like a 20 page game bc I was that lazy) and when I've demonstrated I can be proactive as scum

anyway, if anyone has any questions for me, ask and ye shall receive

[pieguyn]

I'm absolutely positive I used on you. Are you 100% sure you didn't get a confirmation?

yes

[pieguyn]

is it possible your action got redirected?

while I am fairly positive you're scum outside of this, and think you're more than capable of setting up this sort of WIFOM as a last-ditch scum play, I don't want to ignore anything that leaves a nonzero chance of both of us being town

[pieguyn]

@_@

there's a few ways I can think of your action would have failed without you getting blocked. to name one off the top of my head, commutifier. I used Psychic last night, so it doesn't have anything to do with my role.

(incidentally, if I had decided not to confirm me/Seo having this ability, my other ability would have solved this immediately. -.-)

[pieguyn]

in the meantime, care to respond to 1611 and/or explain your read trajectory on me? I'd like an answer for the 3rd paragraph in particular. "it doesn't matter at this point" is not a valid answer.

[pieguyn]

That's how I felt about you and maybe formerfish. Weird NK, btw.

not really. even if you ignore the stuff related to Psychic, FF was basically confirmed town after vettrock flip bc of the fact vettrock destroyed his vote.

what happened to your magical town read on BBT that made you think I was "absolutely" town?

In my memory, you were very active in your townperiod and very inactive in your scumperiod (I culted pieguyn, ftr). Was that wrong?
Now that I think of it, you did lurk almostcas hard as I day 1....lol my memory.

it's not entirely wrong - I was active D2 and then started lurking again on D3 when you culted me. but yes, the point is that I basically did fuck all D1 of that game as town, and so you should know me doing the same this game is not a good reason for scum reading me

I've also demonstrated in my recent scum game that I can be active as scum, so how active I am is not an alignment tell either way. /shrug

the only thing I'm seeing that goes in your favor here is that what you're claiming matches the flavor to a T, and I'm speaking as someone who doesn't know the flavor and just looked it up 1 minute ago. however, I don't put any credence in that for obvious reasons. either way, I'll wait for mod/you to finish explaining your N3 thoughts

[pieguyn]

I don't have psychic
Maybe you misread the section of my mess up

oh holy fuck

-.-

I completely derped and forgot about that. yay for me being dead weight this game

[pieguyn]

I looked at your game the previous day and it looked like you were just lurking your scum win out. You voted easy lynches (flames, for example) and did absolutely no effort to get in and change stuff. Vettrock sorted you into town super easily.

are you actually serious?

like, I literally wasn't here for a large part of the end of the last game day. I outright fucking declared a V/LA in the game thread. what exactly were you expecting me to do?

the reason I vote parked on Flames was exactly that - I was never in a position where I felt a strong need to change my vote, and on top of that I hadn't even fully read the stuff about the tracker claim. I literally fucking said at the end of the game day I'd just sheep whatever wagon was likely to go through, which included the vettrock wagon.

none of this makes sense unless you're going to argue that I'm scum pretending to be behind when I'm not. regardless, how exactly do you think me soft bussing vettrock makes sense from a "scum lurking the game out" POV? you don't fucking encourage everyone to lynch your partner if you're trying to lurk the game out.

[pieguyn]

Leaning more to pie and Tier. Gonna look into them both later but what I remember about pie is the sudden vote on me without mentioning me ever before.

as I said, POE

and as I also said, I alluded to just sheeping whatever wagon was likely to go through at deadline. and fwiw, I was planning on voting vettrock if the day didn't end before I got back after my last D3 post. I realize you only have my word to go on, but make it what you will.

if you want me to walk you through why I think TS's play yesterday was scummy, or explain anything else I did, I'm more than willing to

[pieguyn]

And I don't really care if you've demonstrated you CAN be active as scum. Afaik you still vastly prefer town and will be much more active as town, even if you avoided that behaviour for a single game.

that was more a tangent than my actual point

you're claiming I "will be much more active as town", when you've seen evidence that directly contradicts that. and you claim you didn't remember it, but you have now and are still pushing it anyway. /shrug

[pieguyn]

@Pieguyn: I don't care about soft bussing or hard bussing or self-meta or whatever shit. You were in a golden position yesterday, with no one but boon even suspecting you and majority calling you close to confirmed town, with easy lynches in me and boon or fish. You had the towncred to completely lurk it out and not give a shit anymore. Yes, you could have bussed harder. No, it would probably not have mattered a whole lot. Everyone hard busses these days.

you're completely ignoring my point

you know what it _doesn't_ make any fucking sense to do when you're in a good position as scum? start bussing one of your partners for no reason. and your idea of site meta can fuck off - town reading partners is, and will always be, stronger than blindly bussing partners with no strategic value - so saying "lol, everyone busses" is not a good counterargument and completely ignores the point I am making.

this is even more so the case when I initially came in calling Marquis/vettrock-slot town. if I was scum trying to coast, exactly what benefit did I have for sometime later going "no wait, Marquis actually might have been scum"? there wasn't any pressure on vettrock at that point save a few scum reads here and there - I could easily have continued shutting down the possibility of a wagon on him. especially when if you choose not to bus, you literally need all 5 town votes to get a scum lynch.

these are the kinds of things I'd expect a town player to think about if they were legitimately attempting to form a read here

[pieguyn]

Pie: You are generally more active as town than as scum. A single scum game doesn't change that. Sample sizes, bruh. Don't be dense.

you are, again, completely ignoring my point

am I usually active as town? yes. am I also capable of not being invested in the game and generally being an apathetic fuck as town? also yes. and you know this.

soooooooo

[pieguyn]

I did think about this. You could have tried to keep your buddy in at first, but when you saw he was going down you could have flipped your read, as to not get scrutinised too much if he would flip scum at some point (that dayphase, or this one). Hard bussing wouldn't have made much sense at that point.

except, as I just said, there was basically no pressure on him until the very end of the day phase. he was not "going down" in the slightest at the moment where I flipped my read on him. there were a few scum reads here and there, but nothing strong, no votes, and a lot of more obvious targets (Boon, Flames OTOH).

sooooooooo

Look, pieguy, scumtells are something you are more likely to do as scum than as town. You lurk more often as scum than as town, so it's a scumtell for you. It's not something that makes you 100% scum, but it's a piece of the puzzle.

yes, and I am claiming that me being apathetic is not a scum tell for me. me usually being active does not change the fact that being apathetic does not fall outside my range of behaviors as town, and that you've seen as much.

why exactly do you no longer think I'm scum?

[pieguyn]

1-shot global delayer is a viable possibility for what happened. either way, this should make more sense after mod gets here/massclaim finishes.

[pieguyn]

unvote

I don't think TS is town but I'm willing to unvote until all the role-related stuff is sorted out.

[pieguyn]

God, do you know what probability means? Or even a scumtell at that? Try to look at my 10% example again.

I think we disagree here. in my view, me lurking more often as scum than town doesn't make lurking a scum tell for me.

/shrug

I might be biased bc I know that I can be lazy as town, but it only came across in the one town game up to this point. I might also be biased bc my play evolved recently and I feel like I've improved at scum in general, I just only had the one game to demonstrate it. either way, I admit I'm probably on the wrong track with this argument.

Plus, the story of you bussing vettrock does not make much sense. ANYMORE

didn't you just say in the same post where you said you didn't think I was scum (1648) that you didn't think me bussing vettrock was implausible enough to make you reconsider your read?

or was that also referring to what you were thinking on N3?

[pieguyn]

Because what you're doing right now, instead of fucking yesterday, is what I'd expect from town-you. I also think you would have played my accusation of you a bit safer and find a way to weasel out of it if my flip would actually confirm you as scum.

:/

I have a lot of doubts that you would think this, but you'd miss the obvious conclusion as to what I'd currently be doing if I was scum here.

[pieguyn]

I think we disagree here. in my view, me lurking more often as scum than town

doesn't make lurking a scum tell for me.

I bolded the key half of the phrase

the point I am making is that what actually happened in most of my games is not 100% indicative of what my range of behavior is actually like. and I tend to factor possibilities like this in when meta'ing someone - ex. with me, I'd be more interested in *how* I lurk when I'm town lurking as opposed to how *often* I do it. but as I said, this feels more like a playstyle issue than anything alignment relevant and I see what your point is.

And the very very obvious conclusion is?

if you think I'm scum, have you thought about the possibility I'm just trying to mislynch you in order to cancel your action?

I would think me pushing back on you would better fit the profile of someone trying to weasel out of dying as opposed to making you think I'm town for it.

[pieguyn]

Pie can confirm this, as my ability states that my target will be informed of the fact.

hi. I still don't have this.

[pieguyn]

Well, pie, got something?

yeah, I got it now

[pieguyn]

atm I'm trying to figure out if it's possible TS-scum would have this ability, but have it be different than what he claimed. cos I still hate his play yesterday and his claim screams scum fakeclaim with the most obvious loophole ever built into it, and I have reason to think everyone else is town.

/shrug

I need to do some rereading

[pieguyn]

I was told that my Parish Count fell to 2. no specifics as to what it actually does.

[pieguyn]

Kbw wagon sucks and there is 1-2 scum on it.

@mod BBT is voting twice

Fixed.

Flames682 (1)- BlueBloodedToffee
Bert (1)- Espeonage
Marquis (0)-
Seohyun (0)-
LastManStanding (0)-
Wisdom (1)- Tiershift
Espeonage (0)-
Micc (0)-
Egg (1)- Micc, Bert
BlueBloodedToffee (2)- Not_Mafia, Flames682
Keybladewielder (5)- Wisdom, Seohyun, LastManStanding, Egg, BlueBloodedToffee
Not_Mafia (0)-
TierShift (1)- Marquis

this makes me bias towards TS scum. given Marquis was off the wagon, it looks like a straightforward attempt at redirecting suspicion. (btw yes I am reading the entire game now)

[pieguyn]

^the alternative there is that it was distancing (not too unreasonable I guess) or that Bert is scum.

[pieguyn]

not_mafia tried to claim there were "1-2 scum on the KBW wagon"

it's a fairly straightforward play to make a vague statement like that in order to misdirect away from where scum _actually_ are. given LMS/egg/me are all town and Marquis was proven to be off the wagon already, it would make sense that is what he's doing here, which would implicate TS or Flames.

[pieguyn]

p14/15 is interesting. TS says NM "has a huge stick up his ass" despite pointing out basically the same thing NM did in that the KBW wagon was unwarranted, then immediately drops it and votes LMS along with him. I'm not sure what to make of it, though.

[pieguyn]

~truth time~ i just have like no interest in this day so far at all :/ like i'm keeping up alright just with barely any time to actually post but even then it's like... nothing interesting has happened at all yet and i want more pokedex entries

why marquis is scum btw

i don't even think you've mentioned me at all before this

much less even called me scum / reacted to any of the discussions about me and me being shitty

you haven't been reading huh

well according to your ISO i'm not the one who's full of shit here

VOTE: flames

bert is meh anyway now

Marquis I have no idea what that meant

this points to Flames town, imo.

[pieguyn]

But you're talking to him like he is town in the first part.

Cognitive dissonance.

VOTE: Tier

Need a VC to see who is on Micc wagon.

so you dont know then?

I can't KNOW. But, he's probably town.

I'm talking to him like I want to cooperate. That's what I do, as town. Try to find other town and cooperate. That's how town wins games.

Why are you trying so hard not to understand?

I can't KNOW.

But you're talking to him like he is town in the first part.

Cognitive dissonance.

VOTE: BBT

I understand completely.

Why are you pretending like I don't have a point?

Will go back to Micc if necessary

WTF is that NM?

Your point is that I address my scumreads as if they're town.
My counterpoint is that I always address my scumreads as if they're town if I'm looking to work together.

Why would you want to work with someone you're scum-reading?

I can't believe BBT would chainsaw so hard.

Thinking we might look at 2 scum between MS/bbt/micc.
Can't believe all of them are this dense as town. Actually, I know that all of them are NOT this dense as town.

To find out if they're town or not.

If I don't have a 100% read, I try to improve. What the fuck is your problem?

@Tier - My problem is the inconsistency in your reads.

@Wisdom - Because he is.

It is not inconsistent. I currently think you might be scum. However, I would be perfectly willing to try to work with you.

If I were a shitty player, I'd just scream at you now for being stupid and possibly scum. I know that doesn't solve anything, however.

I can't KNOW.

Why would you want to work with someone you're scum-reading?

We still have 21 hours to lynch this

I'll pass Wisdom.

Yeah, it is. You can't speak to someone like you're town-reading them and then say they might be scum in the very same paragraph.

This feels like scum caught for the wrong reasons.

You do that.

well, if I were actually inconsistent as scum I would be scum caught for the right reasons, not the wrong ones!
If it helps, I can dig up old posts like that from town games.

Nah, meta means shit.

You were inconsistent. But if you genuinely feel that you haven't been then you would be scum caught for the wrong reasons.

76 - In this post, you talk to Esp like you know he is town.

332 - In this post, it feels like you're flinging mud at the KBW wagon to see what sticks. Like, look at all these people just voting KBW, but I won't push it, I'll just highlight it and see if someone else will do it for me.

364 - Then comes your awful vote for LMS.

So, yeah. Those points, plus your cog dis when talking to Micc, makes me think you're scum.

PEdit - Because it's meta. You're hardly going to go digging and show Scum!Tier doing the same things are you? Meta is too subjective and is bullshit. I'm not interested.

There's no way BBT is seriously pushing this nonsense as town.

Look, what you call an inconsistency is my regular town play. Why don't you believe me? Why do you scumread me for it?

As a rebuttal:
76: No, why do you think so?
332: I was AGAINST the KBW wagon; if I wanted others to push the kbw wagon, why would I not just shut my mouth?
364: have you already taken a look at his iso? Please tell me what you think of it!

You can explain your micc towread now, thanks.

I'm not voting micc. He's a scumread, but not nearly as much as my other ones.
Preferred lynch is between MS or BBT. I think I might prefer BBT, actually.
VOTE: bbt

this, on the other hand. LOL

[pieguyn]

You know I basically lead the notmaf wagon too?

where did you lead the NM wagon? so far I'm seeing you pushing a bunch of people who are not him (I'm at the end of D1).

you could just as well have another delayed ability that resolves after 3 phases. I don't like that you conveniently used this right at the point where it'd be too late to do anything about it if you were scum. it screams scum fakeclaim with the most obvious loophole ever built into it.

the thing I think is town is not the role itself but that you're using it to attempt to clear someone, which in endgame is a pretty big town tell, but given the rest of the context surrounding your claim I don't feel comfortable writing you off as town bc of it. however, I've pretty much hated everything about your D1 play. /shrug

p-edit: I was going to ask who you thought scum was if it wasn't me, but guess that answers that. to be fair, I've basically hated Wisdom's play so far too and would probably be scum reading him if it weren't for the way he/NM handled each other.

[pieguyn]

just reached the end of D1. I fucking hate everything about TS's play. every push he made was fucking awful. first he pushes LMS for no reason besides "read his ISO", and spends a lot of time weakly appealing to players telling them to just read his ISO and join him as opposed to explaining *what* he actually found scummy. then he pushes Micc for probably the worst reason I think I've ever seen in my entire life (498), and it comes out of absolute nowhere. the trajectory here was basically nonexistent. calls him scum for "not engaging", when that argument could be applied to basically all of this game; claims he didn't back up his statement about empty questioning when he did.

for a further explanation of why I think this is scummy, it is extremely helpful to go back and look at the context. Wisdom was tunneling Micc really hard, and Micc had just made 495 calling *both* NM and TS as scum. given the (lack of) trajectory here, I think this was a calculated play to get Micc lynched. this is even more so the case when you factor in interactions like the one I just pulled up where NM and TS basically hard defended each other the whole D1.

moreover, I would think that if he was poking at lurkers, Marquis should have been on his radar, but he completely ignored Marquis. /shrug

I have a town read on Bert. at this point he's the only person I feel comfortable town reading based entirely on play without regard to interactions/role info. I also like Seohyun's play to some extent, although I do not feel strongly about this.

(before anyone asks, no, my TS read here is not final; I still haven't read D2 and I'm open to discussion. I'd also like to figure out what's going on with TS's role and finish massclaim before finalizing any reads.)

[pieguyn]

Flames and Wisdom I'm still ambivalent on. disregarding interactions, I'm null on Flames and hate basically everything Wisdom did as well.

need to get smth to eat, will continue in maybe ~1 hour

[pieguyn]

I started voting Notmaf in 975. You know, right before all the other sheeped me onto that wagon? Right there.

I'll pay attention to it when I get to that part. I'm just starting D2 right now.

I'm not convinced you're scum at this point. what I'm thinking about - and the reason I'm nowhere near as certain as I want to be on you being scum here - is what exactly your scum plan in this situation would be. discounting your role claim, you'd have to get 2 more mislynches in order to win, but you're pushing who would likely be one of them as confirmed town. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so I'm still fairly open to reevaluation at this point.

[pieguyn]

seeing more Flames/Marquis interactions. overall, if Flames is scum here, he and Marquis-slot were basically distancing from each other all game.

[pieguyn]

Uh, who replaced marquis?

vettrock

[pieguyn]

TS, here's the thing.

yeah, you did push NM. OK. the problem is, you weren't by any means the first to push him. Wisdom and BBT had been pushing him earlier that day, although they unvoted, and Bert was already on him.

moreover, the reasoning you gave again came out of nowhere. both his defense of KBW and him pushing BBT were things that happened way before the point where you voted him. afaict, you had basically ignored him up to this point.

then after you voted him and FF initially started catching up you somewhat weakly attempted to derail the lynch onto FF and link FF as his partner (1012), which is a textbook maneuver coming from scum bussing a partner - I saw BROseidon pull this on 3 different people in the same game last time I played with him - and the other thing was, the wagon didn't really consist of people sheeping you. from what I could tell, there was a lot of confusion at deadline about how many votes were on NM and we had a bunch of people voting there because there wasn't really another viable wagon.

given the (lack of) trajectory again, I really don't see anything here that's compelling as a non scum x scum interaction. it makes sense that you'd see the momentum on NM and join at an early venture to get all the town cred possible off it. this is even more so the case when you expressed the idea earlier that scum tend to bus by default. (not pushing this as a scum tell; just I don't think it's town)

I actually think 1300 is more of a town tell bc it'd be somewhat suicidal to immediately bus Marquis after bussing NM. however, given you didn't vote the slot until the very end of the day when it was guaranteed to go through, I don't think this is a strong tell either.

what am I missing?

[pieguyn]

the other thing I got from D2 was that Wisdom, for the second time this game, pushed NM but then attempted to hop off at the first possible opportunity. there was basically no strong push to actually get NM lynched, even accounting for him being apathetic.

[pieguyn]

pie, what's your current read on me and why was it scum on day 3?

town via Marquis/vettrock

it was scum on D3 because I hadn't read the game and I had reason to think everyone else was town; FF for Psychic, Seohyun for that whole shitstorm around the Psychic ability, TS/vettrock for how they were generally accepting me/FF as town as opposed to trying to spread paranoia about it (as well as in vettrock's case I first thought Marquis was town until I went and corrected it later), and Boon bc I thought Wisdom was pushing NM harder than he actually was and bc I didn't see Wisdom getting apathetic after bussing a buddy the whole game.

[pieguyn]

yeah. I hadn't read the full game, but I had looked through ISOs here and there (primarily Marquis/Wisdom's).

[pieguyn]

I hate to OMGUS vote, but I'm inclined to vote for Boon as well. I didn't really see the interaction between Wisdom and NM as scum partners, but Boon's recent push on me seems pretty scummy, but I'm not sure how much I'm letting the OMGUS aspect of it bother me.
VOTE: Boon

Pie was referring to me being scum and doing that.

VOTE: Boonskiies

Fuck it. Don't care.

this is...... what in the blue fuck. I really don't see this making sense as scum x scum, even though it probably does.

[pieguyn]

probably TS

literally everything about his play is what I expect from scum. his play, interactions with both scum, and the fact his role claim is convenient as shit and gives him an easy way to coast until endgame. up until today, which I think is town.

usually in a situation like this (see: GM's game) I place more weight on endgame play than play during the rest of the game. however, I still don't see much of a compelling reason for anyone else being scum.

who do you think is scum assuming I'm town?

[pieguyn]

at p57 and Seohyun has now soft defended both scum without committing to a hard stance on either

haven't really seen anything else notable about Seohyun's play (and I'm still not sure how D3 would play out the way it did with Seo and NM as partners), but might as well note it in case it's relevant later

p-edit: how do you think TS intends on winning this game if he is scum here? obviously mislynching Boon would be the first step, but I'm not sure what he'd do from there given I doubt he'd actually be able to lynch you. only thing I could really think is that he'd attempt to bullshit a push on a different target on D5 and hope no one would notice. (and I'm guessing he'd have to NK me tonight?)

[pieguyn]

don't have much of a reason. I figured I'd probably be able to get a read on either of them bc I have experience with both of them, but nothing beyond that.

[pieguyn]

trying to figure out if vettrock would push Boon as hard as he did here if they were partners. it felt more like he was just voting whichever of {Boon, Flames} looked plausible, which to me implies both are town.

[pieguyn]

His goal would be to survive tomorrow's lynch (or until whenever his "claimed bomb/kill resolves)," with his chances bolstered by everyone assuming he will be suiciding tomorrow and therefore not lynching him

well yeah, but who would he mislynch in 4p for the win?

he wouldn't be able to get you or me lynched and he's claimed he believes Flames' claim. actually, looking through his recent posts, I thought he had been calling Seohyun town as well, but I can't find it anywhere. so I guess TS-scum does have a clear path to victory here.

Seo has struggled with putting out non-timid stances all game long tbh.

agree. I'm not going to put that much faith into "xxx defended both scum" regardless.

[pieguyn]

yeah ok
VOTE: vettrock

I wish I had more to say about marquis as well but he's been the same way in more than just this game recently.
You can take a look at doubleslap or the P3 FES game if you want to see it

Flames682(3): Seohyn, pieguyn, vettrock
Bert(0):
vettrock(2): Flames682, Bert
Seohyun(0):
Boonskiies(0):
pieguyn(1): Boonskiies
Formerfish(1): TierShift
TierShift(0):

Not Voting(0):

feels like a weird move for a vettrock partner here.

[pieguyn]

Oh great vettrock's latest post is super bad and doubtcasting. He says flames might be scum if he's not a tracker but shows zero inclination to actually find out if he's a tracker or not.

VOTE: vettrock
Gogogogo

WHAT IN THE BLUE FUCK?

HELL FUCKING NO. IN THE WORDS OF GREYICE, LYNCH THE HERPA HAMMERS

[pieguyn]

Pie, Everyone is very much lynchAble. In any order, if he gets creative. Tier if scum realizes that

Plus outside of you, not many are looking back through the game
He can get away with changing stances and pretending certain ones never happened
That's the advantage whomever is scum has in this game. Ff kill in that sense makes sense in that he was the most active and detailed

And most willing to read up and offer thoughts

fwiw, this is a huge part of why I fucking hate TS's play. there is no trajectory on any of his reads, and no follow-through on most of his scum reads. he posts reads, but there is no internal consistency anywhere and it feels more like he's just going with the flow of the game. I can fully elaborate on this if it's relevant after I finish catching up, but I alluded to it with the LMS/Micc pushes D1 and the NM push D2.

I don't think he could lynch you bc you're obvious town and most of the game realizes that, and he can't go lynching me after claiming I'm clear. but either way, it's a moot point now.

[pieguyn]

I'm caught up at this point. I think massclaim today is optimal, and barring any kind of role info, I'm pretty sure TS is the last scum.

I'll be back later tonight. if anyone has any questions, or wants me to elaborate on anything, feel free to ask.

[pieguyn]

Pie what are your abilities besides psychic?

Kinesis
self-watch. I used it on N2 and no one visited me. would have used it N3 but I forgot Seohyun didn't actually have Psychic so I attempted to use Psychic instead to confirm it -.-
my pokemon is Alakazam.

[pieguyn]

the first thing that comes to mind re: tracker is ascetic. Flames, who did you target?

[pieguyn]

also, I can think of at least 2 possibilities for TS's role that isn't what he claimed:

-> vanillaize target/self after 3 phases
-> remove target/self's votes after 3 phases (probably not bc scum already had one role to remove votes, but putting it here for completeness)

any kind of negative utility role would fit to some extent, really

so attempting to confirm him as town or plan based around the role he claimed is not a good idea

[pieguyn]

Pie, the explanation for my trajectoryless play is dus to the mod. My whole game consisted of posting crap, reading ISO's and updating reads. That's how I got notmaf lynched. There was no trajectory before, because I couldn't be arsed to do a thing earlier. I felt bad, read some ISO's, found scum and pushed it. You can say other players pushed him before me, but you will have to agree that notmaf wasn't even considered as the lynch before I started pushing him. I didn't attempt to link notmaf and fish, that's just bullshit. I put fish forth as a secondary scumread.

I haven't read the rest of what you said.

...... you're spouting bullshit here

it'll take me a bit to explain why. please hold

Look, pie, lynching me will do not a single thng about your timer.

if you supposedly think I'm town, then a post like this shouldn't exist

you're really trying hard to discredit/silence me, aren't you?

[pieguyn]

Also, the mod said my target's factional kills are redirected. All abilities done by my target are redirected, so unless something bizarre happened with other people's abilities interfering that means tiershift couldn't have done the NK. Thoughts?

is your redirect "all abilities that _target_ user x target user y instead" or "all abilities that _are performed by_ user x target user y instead"?

even if it's the former, I wouldn't clear TS just yet, pending what Flames' answer to my question is, and even then I would be very apprehensive about clearing him. play > everything else in role madness

[pieguyn]

who did you redirect N1/N2?

[pieguyn]

just need that, a claim from Boon, and Flames to clarify his N3 action

[pieguyn]

and currently, yes. I'm going to wait for Boon before developing any more setup-related theories, though.

[pieguyn]

pieguyn
Alakazam - Psychic, Kinesis (self-watch)
N1 Psychic -> neighborhood with NM
N2 Kinesis -> no one
N3 Psychic -> no neighborhood

Flames
Machamp - Low Kick (2-shot track)
N1 no action
N2 Seo -> no one
N3 pieguyn -> *no result*

TS
Lapras - Perish Song (3-phase-delayed suicide bomb)
N3 pieguyn

Bert
Cubone - Bonemerang (rolestop, doesn't work on kills)
N1 Seohyun
N2 no action
N3 no action

Seohyun
Poliwhirl - Hypnosis (redirect actions performed by player x onto player y)
N1 pieguyn/BBT -> Egg
N2 no action
N3 TS -> pieguyn

Boon
Jigglypuff - Sing (x-shot jailkeeper)
N3 Flames

[pieguyn]

Micc
Snorlax - Rest (voteless), Snore (double vote, only works if it has enough extra uses of Rest to cancel it)

Espeonage
Muk - Disable (conditional roleblock, works if it can guess the ability used)

Metal Sonic
Metapod - Harden (use twice to treestump self)

Egg
Pidgeot - Fly (commute, vig following night)
N1 - Metal Sonic

Formerfish
Mewtwo - Hyper Beam (1x dayvig, prevents use of Psychic next night), Psychic

Not_Mafia
Starmie - Hydro Pump (1x strongman), Psychic, Recover (ascetic)
N1 Psychic -> neighborhood with BBT/pieguyn

vettrock
Venomoth - Poison Powder (1x make target hated next day), Stun Spore (1x vote remove), Sleep Powder (1x roleblock)
N1 ???
N2 Stun Spore -> Formerfish

[pieguyn]

well the first thing of note is NM already had ascetic ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

this should conftown Flames. I don't think anyone else is _absolutely_ confirmed (and no, TS is still not confirmed. this is talking about people who have an absolute 0% chance to be scum based on role interactions)

p-edit: did I mess something up? -.- let me know and I'll fix it

[pieguyn]

I looked at it for 10 minutes and didn't see it. @_@ looking forward to hearing what you're seeing.

[pieguyn]

Look pie, I have no idea why you are attacking me against all logic. Perhaps you are scum hoping their timer will disappear. I really can't think of another reason. I'd expect you to be able to evaluate more objectively otherwise.

because, as far as I can tell, you are blatantly pushing bullshit here

compared to everyone else who more or less looks town one way or another

(I still haven't forgot about my previous response to you btw. I'm just waiting until all the claims get sorted out just in case something does tell me I'm absolutely wrong here.)

And I'm just as confirmed as NM is atm because the only thing that could have prevented the redirect as well as the JK is a scum roleblocker or ascetic which is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY with both of those scum roles already flipped.

YOU. ARE. NOT. 100%. CLEARED

so long as you are not outright clear, role info means fuck all. even if I could not think of any possibilities for how your role would work as a scum role in this situation, I would still be pushing this

PLAY > EVERYTHING ELSE IN A ROLE MADNESS GAME. THIS IS COMMON FUCKING SENSE.

[pieguyn]

I had a huge scum read on AngryPidegon and a huge town read on Just Sheep Us (Desp+BRO hydra) in Tales of You.

what happens? JSU gets what is practically an inno on AP - and it's not a vanilla cop inno, it's a "my role only works on town" to begin with inno.

my initial reaction? "welp, guess JSU is scum with AP". not thinking AP might have been town, because HIS PLAY WAS THAT FUCKING TERRIBLE, AND YOU ALWAYS GO WITH PLAY OVER ROLE INFO IN ROLE MADNESS.

what was correct? AP was a scum universal godfather and JSU was legitimately town.

why did I reach the wrong conclusion? because THE ROLE INTERACTION THAT MADE AP SCUM AND JSU TOWN WAS NOT OBVIOUS, NOR WAS IT SOMETHING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN FIGURED OUT BEFOREHAND.

THIS IS WHY YOU CLAIMING YOU'RE "CLEAR" BECAUSE "THE ONLY THING THAT COULD HAVE DONE XXX" IS BULLSHIT. YOU CAN NOT ACT LIKE YOU CAN PLAN BASED AROUND SHIT IN ROLE MADNESS, SINCE THERE MIGHT BE ROLE INTERACTIONS THAT ARE OUTRIGHT INVISIBLE FROM A TOWN POV.

(I'm not even calling you scum for pushing this, just saying regardless of what alignment you actually are, you are not. fucking. cleared. my scum read on you continues to come from other reasons.)

[pieguyn]

oh and I failed to mention that there was another step involved - Katsuki was a role delayer who I think delayed JSU, and the only reason it didn't make it obvious who the scum as was because AP was a roleblocker who blocked Katsuki.

this. is. not. something. you. can. plan. around.

[pieguyn]

on top of being a godfather

sounds ridiculous, right? yeah, it is. this is why you shouldn't fucking "clear" anyone when they're not actually cleared.

p-edit: fuck off. Flames is confirmed because not only did he make a kill when he got blocked, he would have had no way of knowing he got blocked if he was scum and actually made a kill here. this is why he's 100% clear as opposed to you.

[pieguyn]

I haven't even posted yet what I'm seeing in your play. you are _really really really obviously_ pushing bullshit here. want to be absolutely destroyed?

[pieguyn]

also I wasn't even going anywhere re: Tales of You

the point was YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT CLEARING PEOPLE IN ROLE MADNESS. that was all there was to it. it served as an example to back up a theory point. but you, of course, attempt to ignore it.

p-edit: the moment you can tell me what the town motivation in that question is, I will answer it.

p-edit2: Boon looks town more or less for vettrock interactions D3 - vettrock looked like he was opportunistically bouncing between whichever of {Flames, Boon} was more likely to go through. plus there were some specific things I saw that struck me as unlikely to be scum x scum, ex. the part where vettrock votes Boon and he implodes and starts self voting - usually when scum do that it's in response to a town wagon building up on them in order to shake town off, not a scum partner bussing them.

p-edit3: so you don't think Flames is cleared?

[pieguyn]

Thoughts?

just saw this. don't really have any thoughts on it. I could see it as scum trying to clear themselves after bussing, but I don't think it's unlikely to come from a town POV either. my scum read on TS comes from other reasons.

can you do me a favor and do a quick exercise? TS said (1732) that his "trajectoryless play" was due to the mod apathy. go back and read the pushes he made on D3, *after* we switched mods. ~

[pieguyn]

Please just answer my questions you address but don't answer in you pre-edits 1 and 3, I will explain my motivations afterwards. Ftr, no, I have no intention of lynching flames ever.

no

your question is scum motivated. you-scum knows that it's basically impossible for me-town to guess what *actually* happened with your role. ergo, by attempting to make my best guess at it, it allows you to further discredit me, paint me as biased, and act like I have no case on you - while continuing to ignore any play-based reason I have for you being scum.

there is no town motivation for asking it, and so I see no reason to answer it.

(and I think Flames is town via play anyway, without regard to role info. this is....... kind of what I mean when I say play > everything else in role madness.)

[pieguyn]

what I'm saying re: 3rd point is I'm fine with Flames not being outright clear. it doesn't change the fact that I think he's likely town disregarding role info. /shrug

[pieguyn]

no, wait, hold on

Flames is legit clear. based on NM's role strongman would count as an ability - so he wouldn't be able to use both the strongman and the track in the same night.

it's as I said. he would have no way of knowing he was blocked if he made a FF kill last night. this, as opposed to the role itself, is why he's clear.

[pieguyn]

oh

psychic isn't a targeted ability. it's an active ability with no target. when used, you get a neighborhood with *anyone else who also used it*.

[pieguyn]

Formerfish was killed Night 3.

He was

Mewtwo, Oak's Pokemon

.

Mewtwo

Mewtwo

The Genetic Pokémon

Psychic

Pokédex Information

It was created by a scientist after years of horrific gene splicing and DNA engineering experiments.

Moves

Psychic

- Attempts to establish a Psychic connection with other Pokémon. If others used this, a neighborhood will open at day start containing all of them. It must be repeatedly used in order to be maintained.

Hyper Beam

- During the day, you fire a laser that knocks a target out on contact, however you are not revealed. This cuts off any Psychic connection you had, and prevents a new one from being established the next night.

Oak's Notes

- This Mewtwo only seems to have enough juice for one Hyper Beam currently.

Alignment

You are one of

Oak's Pokémon.

You win when all threats to

Oak's Pokémon

are dead.

It is now Day 4.

[pieguyn]

Pie, I have another important to say that clears me, unless you can thinkthink of some other way that I can be scum. That's why I want you to answer that now. Your previous post gave me the idea for it.

no

how many times do I have to repeat this? you CAN. NOT. CLEAR PEOPLE. BASED. AROUND. ROLES. I can think of at least 2 viable explanations OTOH for this, but I don't particularly care about finding an explanation. what I care about is YOUR PLAY - I have reason to think everyone else is town, and then we have you who is acting scummy.

the only thing I really think role-related explanations hold much water is in cases like Flames' where there is no role speculation involved. if whatever you're using to "clear" yourself would involve role spec, I don't care about it

[pieguyn]

btw: a town player would not need to use my arguments to "prove" to everyone that they were town. they would just be cleared, and could say as much.

your push here is coming from a scum mindset - you hope to trap me into a position where I can no longer push you as scum.

[pieguyn]

I have another thing for pie but I'd really really rather have he'd stop being uncooperative and try to find a possible explanation for scumTier killing FF.

1. you seem to be acting like I don't have any possible explanation for you being scum here. I've outright said already that I do. I've also explained why it's anti-town to actively spend time discussing it.

2. you claim you haven't been trying to discredit me, but that's exactly what this post is.

3. it is true that it is in town's best interest to clear themselves, and to have everyone else realize they're town. what I find scummy is HOW.

if you were town, and legitimately cleared, all you have to do is explain to everyone why you're actually cleared. for an example of this, see what I did when I replaced in - I just laid it out immediately for everyone to see.

that's not what you're doing. you're attempting to get me to say something, which you would then use to "clear" yourself.

if there was a compelling reason for clearing you, you would not need to bother doing this. you're doing this in order to posture against me and make me look worse so that I can't call you scum without looking bad. you're doing this because you don't actually have a fucking reason for being cleared, and you're hoping no one notices.

I feel boon is playing to a scum wincon to an extreme extent with his latest readpost and not even a thought to if I should be lynched at all. He also already puts forth a candidate to discredit to get him lynched tomorrow.

However, I'm not 100% yet that scum is within boon and pie. If I cannot confirm myself, I'll have to scumhunt and hope I get it right.

this is the kind of thing I'm interested in and I agree with this to some extent

tell you what. I've laid out my thoughts on Boon's D3 play already. how do you see the vettrock interactions making sense as scum x scum? I still don't really see it making much sense and I'm not sure if I'm just missing smth.

[pieguyn]

The point is, if there is no explanation for which I can be scum, I must be town, right? That's not too hard to grasp, is it? I'm looking for all possibilities in which I could be scum, to examine if any of them is possible. If any of them is, I'm not 100% confirmed town, just close. If none of them is, I am confirmed town.

NO.

this is, in fact, exactly why what you're doing right now comes from a scum mindset. it is a fairly textbook scum play to attempt to misdirect away from yourself by saying there is no explanation for you being scum. my Tales of You example was intended to demonstrate this - no one would have ever figured out the explanation of JSU-town AP-scum (AP being a godfather-roleblocker and happening to roleblock Katsuki on that night), but that's what happened.

you can't assume you are aware of every single possibility in a role madness game. this is exactly what I've been saying this whole time.

[pieguyn]

This is like consistently distrusting cop results in theme games because hidden millers exist. It's the sort of risk you simply have to take.

it's like distrusting a cop inno because of the possibility of a godfather - which is not in any way obtuse and depending on the mod can be the correct play

I still find it funny that are you are continuing to discredit me by calling me "obtuse" or trying to write this off as "lol u have PTSD from another game". seriously. I outright said earlier that I did like the way you're attempting to clear me based on your supposed role at the very least - I just don't see any town motivation in the rest of your play - and I literally just asked you about the Boon read. that was, believe it or not, a mild form of reach out. I think Boon is town via D3 - I wanted you to convince me I'm wrong. but rather than attempt to work with me, you.......... completely ignore it and continue claiming I'm being non-cooperative. que que?

[pieguyn]

The obtuse is not trying to be a discredit. It's me hoping to talk some sense into you, but that's over now.

if you want to "talk some sense into me", then actually produce arguments instead of just going "lol ur obtuse" "lol, there's no way I can be scum".

I am attempting to analyze your play objectively. save for the fact you're trying to clear someone in endgame, I do not see any town motivation in your play here. if I see a compelling argument otherwise, I will reconsider my view of the gamestate.

this is why I reached out to you over the Boon read earlier.

/shrug

[pieguyn]

If both are scum, they're obviously going for the crossbus.

my problem with this is if you consider the rest of Boon's play, this doesn't make much sense. like, look at

I hate to OMGUS vote, but I'm inclined to vote for Boon as well. I didn't really see the interaction between Wisdom and NM as scum partners, but Boon's recent push on me seems pretty scummy, but I'm not sure how much I'm letting the OMGUS aspect of it bother me.
VOTE: Boon

Pie was referring to me being scum and doing that.

VOTE: Boonskiies

Fuck it. Don't care.

if his strategy was to bus, what exactly was the purpose of this? it would make more sense and be more beneficial for him to continue railing on vettrock instead of exploding, voting himself and then a bunch of people who weren't vettrock.

and, like, you literally just said afterward that he would be trying to save vettrock near the end of the day, which doesn't make sense if his strategy here was to go a cross bus

those 2 strategies aren't consistent with each other

the point about backpedaling, I don't get what your point is. he's backpedaling and....... offering to lynch his partner instead of town? not sure why you find this scummy.

the point re: finding someone else to scum read over vettrock I'm meh on. he was alluding to scum reading me ever since 1339. I don't think his read here is inconsistent.

there's nothing here that I think is more likely to come from a POV of scum partners, as opposed to vettrock-scum Boon-town. I feel like you're looking through it with the mindset that they're partners and pointing out things to fit the conclusion, as opposed to looking into what they'd actually have to gain by doing anything they're doing as partners. (I'm not calling you scum for this since town do this too, I'm just saying I don't think most of these points hold merit and I don't get why you find most of them more likely to come from scum than town.)

The point is that you agree it would be best for scum in your situation to portray the behaviour you are portraying, yet you were offended when I said so the first time. It shows me that your earlier reaction was not genuine, as you showed aggression towards my viewpoint, while you later admit that you are agreeing with it.

I want to know why your earlier reaction was not genuine. I only have one explanation and you probably know what that is.

Pie, read this. Understand this.

meh. I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting this. the point is that Boon does not agree that what he is doing is "lining up lynches", which I don't think is too unreasonable. from his POV, he's just claiming to have multiple scum reads as opposed to actually setting anyone up to be lynched

this isn't really something that I find compelling or that I would expect anyone to actually slip over

[pieguyn]

turns out the PM I got should have said that my perish count fell to 3, not 2

[pieguyn]

I think early crossbus for distancing and afterwards buddy preservation is a perfectly viable scum strategy. I very often see scum vote their buddy and the direct their attention elsewhere.

you and I have very different ideas of how to play scum. I would never attempt to soft distance without following through with it later, because you risk being called out for being inconsistent and it looks really conspicuous if your partner ends up flipping at some point. if I was bussing here, I'd continue to rail the fuck out of him to get the most town cred possible from it.

I tried rereading again and in 1437 he calls vettrock's 1274 town, but when he initially voted vettrock 1283 he claimed he didn't like vettrock's Flames push, which 1274 was the continuation of. -.-

I also don't particularly get why he tried to vote you/me after his self vote instead of moving back onto vettrock. looking at it from this POV, it makes more sense.

I thought some other things didn't make sense as trying to save a partner. like, look at this

Updated Read List:

Boonskiies
Seohyun
Flames
Formerfish
Bert
Tiershift
Vettrock
Pieguyn

VOTE: Pie

his idea of "buddy protection" here would be to vote me who was never getting lynched that day, while putting vettrock as his backup scumread. the end result of this is it does absolutely nothing to actually derail the lynch off vettrock.

I also think on a general level he could have done a _lot_ more to derail the lynch off vettrock if that's what he was actually going for. there was basically no actual push on any other target besides a few quotes related to me (1592, 1593), the former of which I actually thought was genuine bc I could see what he was picking up on (deliberately going against the general flow of reads is a relatively easy way to get town cred as scum and smth I abused the fuck out of in the game where we were scum together) and how he linked it to my scum game.

/shrug

People don't just forget about their biggest scumread. Vettrock did for a moment. Then he backpedalled and threw it in again. Buddyxbuddy interaction.

the problem I have with this is it's not indicative of scum x scum interaction, it's just indicative of vettrock fabricating reads. I first thought it was indicative of what I mentioned before - vettrock-scum opportunistically voting between Boon/Flames depending on which looked more likely to go through.

Pie, I immediately thought 1846 was not genuine. It felt as a snap-response, as though he was really mad I compared his actions to scum-motivated actions. That doesn't line up with him agreeing to my point later on and just making a throwaway gesture 'yeah, of course lol why is it important'.

His first response is to discredit me because he's scared.

I'm going to straight up admit I can't fucking read Boon's play at all. the end result of this is I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I have no idea if it's actually scummy or not or why he wouldn't do this as town. /shrug

[pieguyn]

TS offering to be lynched is, tbh, the kind of thing I'm referring to when I say his endgame play looks town. only thing I think he could really be going for here as scum is for people to hopefully write him off in 4p because "he would never do that as scum", which is theoretically a shit play but I've seen scum attempt similar things before (zmuffinman was that scum!).

the problem is, I still have no fucking idea how anyone besides him makes any sense as scum here. I have strong reason to call Flames and Bert town, minor reasons to call Seo town, and I still don't think a few things Wisdom/Boon did make sense coming from scum. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@TS: would you be willing to do it the other way around (lynch you today, then Boon tomorrow)?

@Boon: want to hear your response to the first part of 1886

[pieguyn]

No. Not doing that. Perhaps if I read seo and am 100% sure he's town.

...........

why wouldn't you be fine with it? it's the same outcome either way. either Boon gets lynched and then you promise to roll over and die in 4p, or you get lynched now and Boon gets lynched in 4p. you should be fine with this if you were fine with the other one

[pieguyn]

oh my god

this is common sense. IT DOESN'T MATTER IN WHICH ORDER WE LYNCH BOON AND YOU IN. you shouldn't be against going first yourself if you were fine with going after Boon. if you're not fine with this, then it means your first suggestion to be lynched after Boon was empty bluster and you really planned on trying to get out of it and lynch someone else the next day.

I'm aware you need to be deliberately obtuse about this, but really?

[pieguyn]

like, don't get me wrong, I understand the sentiment

but if you actually believed it, you shouldn't have volunteered to lynch yourself after Boon in the first place

[pieguyn]

Yeah, as it currently stands, I think it's boon and maybe you. If I change my mind tomorrow, I'll need to come with extremely strong arguments and you're free to hold what I said here about volunteering against me. If boon flips town and I'm really sure about you being scum (hint, I'm not, yet), I won't fight my lynch.

you're ignoring my point. again.

IF YOU WEREN'T 100% ON BOON BEING SCUM, WHY DID YOU SUGGEST LYNCHING YOURSELF AFTER BOON IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Happy pie day pie

thanks \:D/

[pieguyn]

i would really want to lynch tier right now if not for a lot of current game factors, yet i still really want to

p much where I'm at as well.

[pieguyn]

Pie, please don't respond to this, because I know you think it's scummy.

V

O

T

E

:

T

I

E

R

S

H

I

F

T

[pieguyn]

Only if I'm 100% sure, I've been clear about that.

Blegh perhaps not myself for tomorrow as I'm pretty sure pie is town

But if it is imperative for pie to lynch boon I'll volunteer myself for lynch tomorrow...for now.

@TS: would you be willing to do it the other way around (lynch you today, then Boon tomorrow)?

No. Not doing that. Perhaps if I read seo and am 100% sure he's town.

the former is you DIRECTLY VOLUNTEERING TO LYNCH YOURSELF IF IT WAS NEEDED FOR ME TO LYNCH BOON

SO TELL ME MORE ABOUT HOW YOU WERE SUPPOSEDLY "UNSURE" ABOUT IT.

[pieguyn]

anyone who can't see the scum motivation in 1903 needs to wake the fuck up

that is literally him posturing in advance to discredit me. he wants to lead Bert through this whole smoke-and-mirrors act, but knows he can't if I'm sitting there calling him out on it.

there is no other reason he would have made that post.

[pieguyn]

town in that situation would not be sitting there attempting to posture against me in the way that he did. they might acknowledge that I find it scummy, and express disagreement with that, but they would not POSTURE TO DISCREDIT ME OVER IT.

it's him trying to shut down any attempt at pressure on him before it even starts. this is fucking scum behavior.

[pieguyn]

you are so fucking scum

I've said this multiple fucking times. I AM NOT FUCKING TUNNELING YOU. I AM FOCUSING ON YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE MY ONLY SCUM READ AND I STILL DON'T SEE HOW ANYONE ELSE MAKES ANY SENSE AS SCUM. I'm still waiting for your response to my post a while back re: Boon read - if you even so much as read the post, you'd see that I actually found some things that I'm skeptical of about his play. I've laid out why I think he's town, or at the least why I don't think your arguments for him-scum are particularly convincing. convince me I'm wrong.

[pieguyn]

look

the fact that I'm aggressive about pushing my reads does not mean I'm 100% convinced you're scum. like, seriously, please actually read what I said:

I'm still waiting for your response to my post a while back re: Boon read - if you even so much as read the post, you'd see that I actually found some things that I'm skeptical of about his play.

I basically just said as much. I'm open to other possibilities, just _I'm not going to go clearing you based on your role_, whether you like it or not. it is a theoretically incorrect play. and I'm trying to see how Boon's play makes sense as scum, and _I can see how some parts of it do_. I'm just not 100% sold on it _yet_ and continue to think _at this point_ you being scum makes more sense than Boon being scum.

if you're town, I really don't get where your attitude here is coming from, unless you're misinterpreting my posts. I hope this helps clears it up.

p-edit: @TS

[pieguyn]

and yeah, Bert's post is what I'm talking about

my responses in that post were genuine. I'm not calling you scum there, that is me _trying to understand what your viewpoint is_ and seeing if it makes sense.

[pieguyn]

alternatively, if you want to discuss the Seohyun read, we seem to agree on her being town.

[pieguyn]

And no, pie. The thing that you are doing that drives me nuts is saying that trying to confirm yourself through concensus is scummy and that it sets me up for discrediting you. The thing you're also doing is that when I comment on that, you go "OH MY GOD THIS IS 100% SCUM TACTICS". That is what's bothering me about you.

I'm saying it's scummy because it _is_. and I explained the reasoning why already, which you didn't address - the way you went about it comes more from a scum attempting to muddy the waters mindset than town who actually thinks there's a compelling reason for them being confirmed.

I'm saying it sets you up to discredit me because it _does_. and again I explained why and rather than addressing it you started imploding over it - by preemptively telling me not to respond to it because "I had already said it was scummy", it serves to make me look worse if I _do_ respond to it.

I do not see town motivation in your approach here. what I'm seeing is scum trying to falsely get themselves cleared, and then being overdefensive when they get called on it. now, obviously, I am considering the possibility this is playstyle, hence being somewhat willing to consider the possibility I am wrong here, but it's fucking impossible to tell when you don't actually explain why my points for you being scum are wrong and instead blow up over it. (this is not me accusing you of being scum again, it's me attempting to elaborate more on where my previous pushes have been coming from.)

p-edit: haven't read the above yet, reading it now

[pieguyn]

you don't think 1846 was an overreaction?

not really

it's not how I would have reacted, but I don't have a compelling reason to think he wouldn't react in that way as town.

Vettrock's completely inconsistent on his boon read, as nothing changed about boon since his selfvote, but vettrock's read on him did. That's more likely to stem from scumxscum than scumxtown.

the thing with this is, if you look through vettrock's posts, he wasn't really "forgetting" about his Boon read. it was more a case of disliking _both_ Boon and Flames and supporting the Flames wagon bc there was more support there.

Spoiler: vettrock's progression on Boon

I hate to OMGUS vote, but I'm inclined to vote for Boon as well. I didn't really see the interaction between Wisdom and NM as scum partners, but Boon's recent push on me seems pretty scummy, but I'm not sure how much I'm letting the OMGUS aspect of it bother me.
VOTE: Boon

Only scum have a reason to self vote. Feeling better about my vote already.

assuming nothing went terribly wrong somewhere, I think scum should be within {Flames, vettrock, Boon, TS}, but I need to investigate further

I think I could support any of those other than vettrock, with a possible exception of TierShift.

town to scum
pieguyn
formerfish/Bert
Seohuyn/Tiershift
Flames
Boon

I can support flames. He was my pick before Boon started scumming it up.

VOTE: Flames

Looks like this is L-1.

My reaction is

'So that's why he mighta been mightie careful about not being scummy"

Yeh I had no thought cross my mind of you being a potential pr

So now both players who have had the most pressure today, in their words when under pressure (sometimes those words can be the most clearly thought in a weird way), have continued to push Vettrock as a scumread

I am missing something and will look back

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I still like Boon over flames, but that is what we have. We have time, so I probably should have waited before moving me vote back.

I don't think it's particularly inconsistent, or that he's backpedaling. sure, it doesn't necessarily make Boon town, but that's the reason I first thought vettrock's D3 play looked like scum opportunistically voting Boon as opposed to scum bussing.

I'm still thinking about why there was basically no effort to save vettrock if that's what he was actually going for. as I said, if that was his strategy, he really did absolutely nothing over it; if you look at the posts where vettrock got wagoned, there was no defense of him nor any push on an alternate target besides a few posts related to me, who was never getting lynched that day. how do you see this making sense coming from scum defending a partner?

p-edit: and that post is exactly why your attitude here is shit if you're town. whatever

[pieguyn]

perhaps he wasn't going for the save. Rereading it, he probably wanted to get towncred for not hammering flames instead of defending his buddy.

Go reread it yourself. He basically avoids the vettrock wagon until it's too late. I'm going to throw away my previous theory of defending his buddy, as that doesn't fit with the timeframe.

so you think his scum strategy was to open by soft distancing, stop distancing for some reason, and then basically entirely avoid taking any kind of hard stance on vettrock whatsoever (bus or defend)?

I don't deny at all it's possible - I could see it coming from scum-him coasting and hoping he would somehow get a lynch that wasn't vettrock, despite doing absolutely nothing to push a lynch anywhere else - but if that's what he did he kind of worked himself into a corner here. /shrug

this would make more sense if I could figure out if scum-him had any explicit gain by doing any of this, or if this would just be him-scum failing at interacting with a partner. either way, will think it over

[pieguyn]

@Flames: do you make anything of Seo shifting the momentum from Flames to vettrock in 1590?

@Tier: same question

[pieguyn]

It's possible (not just theoretical unlike some stuff I've spouted) scum can both kill and block in one night, I guess.

I know Nati usually allows factional kill + alternate ability in the same night. plus most role madness setups like this would be broken if that wasn't the case (ex. if scum couldn't use another ability while killing here we'd get TS, Flames, Boon all town and autowin)

[pieguyn]

I Dont know. On one hand it could be like, that old Tarot UPick game where supreme mistake in LYLO by one player can't remember who, and Nazarene-hydra is lynched. Because Tier is kinda begging for his life sorta in that old Tarot game, similar feels here. On other hand, this could be Tier doing ETL-style from an old Antihero game where mastin has ETL on the ropes (in this scenario, Pie is the Mastin).

this game wasn't that old, was it?

and I know mastin said as soon as she first saw me that I'm similiar to her. oooo

[pieguyn]

i don't want to lynch Seo

i still don't get how the way she voted vettrock D3, as well as the way she was completely unaware she didn't have the same ability as NM, make sense coming from scum. i don't particularly think the rest of her play is scummy, either.

@Flames: no thoughts on this?

@Flames: do you make anything of Seo shifting the momentum from Flames to vettrock in 1590?

[pieguyn]

I don't think it's scummy, I think it's town. the thing with this is, if you look at how the wagons were, Seohyun was on your wagon with 3 votes, whereas vettrock's wagon only had 2 votes. I have no idea why Seo-scum would blatantly backtrack on her read on you to bus her partner for pretty much no reason, when you probably could have been lynched otherwise.

don't particularly think she had that huge a town read on vettrock that it's that unusual, either. her last reads list was 1403, where she puts vettrock as her 2nd scum read despite acknowledging some things look town.

it makes a lot more sense as town reevaluating her read on you as opposed to scum backtracking imo

[pieguyn]

@Boon:

what do you make of Seohyun being completely unaware her role was different than NM's?

[pieguyn]

actually, here's what I'm wondering.

I don't get what the strongman on NM's role:

Not_Mafia
Starmie - Hydro Pump (1x strongman), Psychic, Recover (ascetic)
N1 Psychic -> neighborhood with BBT/pieguyn

is intended to counter if Boon isn't town. if you go back and look at all the roles, the only other thing that could block a kill would be Esp's limited weak as shit roleblock that probably wouldn't block anything ever, and potentially Seo's redirect, which by itself would be somewhat of a stretch.

not really taking this as a full clear, but eh. /shrug

which just brings me back to thinking it has to be TS via POE again (inb4 he complains about this).

[pieguyn]

it's not Flames, it's not Bert, I don't think it's Boon, and I doubt it's Seo.

/shrug

is anyone going to give a shit if I explain in full detail specifically why I think TS's play throughout this whole game makes a lot of sense coming from scum? it'll feature him blatantly lying about at least one thing, and nothing about his play from this game day. ~

[pieguyn]

and to expand on the point re: Boon, jailkeeper is the only role in this game that could be classified as a protect, which is what strongman usually counters. not as strong here bc this was also strong-willed on top of being just a strongman (as in it goes through anything that could stop it, not just protective roles), but meh

[pieguyn]

so TS

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/ ... I_learnset
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/ ... I_learnset

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mist_%28move%29

Mist protects the user from stat modifications inflicted by the opponent until it switches out. Moves used by the opponent that only cause a stat change, such as Growl or Kinesis, will fail; moves that deal damage and lower an opponent's stat, such as Rock Smash and Psychic, still do damage but do not decrease stats.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Safeguard_(move)

Safeguard prevents the user and its allies from being inflicted with non-volatile status conditions and confusion for five turns, except self-inflicted conditions (including held items). Existing status conditions are not cured by Safeguard and have their effects as normal. It will prevent a Pokémon from being inflicted with Yawn, but will not prevent it from falling asleep due to its effect if it is already active.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/ ... %28move%29

Confuse Ray causes the target to become confused. Confuse Ray will fail if the target has a substitute, is already confused, has the Ability Own Tempo or protected by Safeguard.

could potentially see it as a roleblock whose effects last for more than 1 night?

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/ ... %28move%29

Hypnosis puts the target to sleep.

Hypnosis cannot affect a target that already has a major status ailment.

In Stadium, Hypnosis cannot affect a target that has a substitute.

Hypnosis has an accuracy of 60%.

I'm not claiming to be any good at flavor spec, but I could see either of these being a strong-willed modifier (action can't be blocked/redirected) especially given the first one (Mist) would as far as I could see here directly counter Seo's Hypnosis.

the other thing I'm getting from this is that roles generally don't fit the flavor to a T - Seo's Hypnosis supposedly puts the target to sleep but winds up being a redirect (wat), and Bert's Bonemerang doesn't in any way look like a rolestop (it's a move that damages the target twice), and ofc the discussion with Flames earlier when he first claimed. either way

not interested in discussing this further - I'm not claiming to know for sure what your role is, or saying this is the best possible explanation, or saying there aren't any explanations outside of this. all I'm saying is that you being scum and having all the night actions work the way they did isn't in any way as impossible as you're trying to make it seem. I will be *very* aware if you try and twist this into something it's not.

[pieguyn]

did anyone here get a scum role PM?

-.-

[pieguyn]

?
I thought Tier was still 'lean scum' for you

he still is, I'm just wondering what his plan here actually is if he is scum.

like, I told him a compelling reason for Boon being town, and he flat out accepted it without questioning it. he's now cleared basically everyone except Seo, when he needs 2 mislynches. what do you think he's trying to do here?

I guess it's possible he just plans on backtracking on it later, but it's at least cause for question.

I can't shake off how I think it's in Tier/Pie and one of them is playing well as scum and being convincing today

If I had to vote outside them, I think I will stick with Boon and Flamea as townreads and vote Seo. I Feel you're always coming across nervous in your responses/stances

not going to lie. in my opinion, this is a really really really shit reason for scum reading someone, unless it's really obvious, and I'm not seeing it. what posts specifically make you think this?

[pieguyn]

(2) if he's scum, i feel he's lying about the suiciding part.

fwiw, this is almost certainly true. scum suicide bomber doesn't make any sense regardless of what happens here. if he's scum, it's probably a different negative utility role.

[pieguyn]

the only one of those I could potentially see as nervous is 1174, and I could easily enough see it coming from town

I primarily liked her vettrock vote - it came at a point where it was up in the air who would get lynched and it ended up making vettrock the lead wagon as opposed to Flames - plus I don't see her being completely unaware her ability was different from NMs and thinking she had Psychic instead if they were partners here. these are all things I've said before so I'm not expecting this to be particularly convincing, but I still don't see what about her play elsewhere is scummy.

[pieguyn]

unvote

p-edit: FUCKING HELL

[pieguyn]

I FUCKING KNEW THAT WOULD HAPPEN. GOD DAMN IT BOON WHY YOU DO THIS.

[pieguyn]

here's hoping I'm not horribly, unbelievably wrong about TS I guess

I still wanted to reread Seohyun in depth and think about things a bit more before doing anything :<

[pieguyn]

seriously

I'm probably going to get NK'ed now and I have no fucking idea which of {Boon, Seo} is scum if TS is town here. -.-

[pieguyn]

boon, if you're town and not an idiot, jailkeep seo plz and thx

if there's a kill then we have Seo, Flames both clear with Bert likely town and me suiciding at D5 end. aka either you're scum or something really fucked up is going on here

if there's no kill then obviously everyone will be alive to figure shit out

logically, this should ensure no kill happens

[pieguyn]

boon, if you're town and not an idiot, jailkeep seo plz and thx

do. this.

seo is the only person you have any reason to jailkeep at this point

[pieguyn]

:/

[pieguyn]

inclined to agree on it being Boon at this point, fwiw.

part of the reason I thought you might be town at the end was bc I figured the strongman might just be a red herring - especially in a Nat game who specifically throws red herrings in to fuck with people - and that he was a scum full RB or a scum JK, before I even posted it, and that if you were scum you'd attempt to throw paranoia at it bringing smth like that up. -.-

[pieguyn]

boon should be put under heavy scrutiny tomorrow if he *doesn't* jailkeep Seo tonight, really

there is literally no other person it makes any sense to jailkeep here

[pieguyn]

plus the D3 interactions point way more towards Boon than Seo to begin with

as well as general play over the course of this game (Wisdom did basically nothing town)

[pieguyn]

sorry TS

[pieguyn]

I was literally unvoting right when Boon voted you.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: BOONSKIIES

any questions?

[pieguyn]

so if Boon isn't scum then scum chose to no-kill for *insert shit reason here* as opposed to attempting to shoot a clear (and no, scum would literally never shoot Boon here).

does anyone think Boon is town, or are we done here?

[pieguyn]

(funnily enough, Boon not actually being a JK actually takes away all the reservations I had about his role not being a scum role; full JK + 1x roleblock on top of all that didn't make sense, but having 2 separate roleblocks does.)

[pieguyn]

[you] meant pie, not flames. I can only use them both once, seo.

Seo, do you think Bert could be scum?

^scum attempting to figure out if he can successfully push Bert in 3p for the win

[pieguyn]

ftr, the theoretically correct play here is to NL on the off chance I'm actually scum who has some way of evading death from TS's ability, but I'd prefer to just end the game.

legit don't see how it isn't obvious Boon isn't scum at this point. if you do happen to NL, I want everyone in this game to promise they'll power lynch the fuck out of Boon tomorrow

AND NOT SECOND GUESS IT.

[pieguyn]

well Seo is online and not hammering so make of that what you will

[pieguyn]

i'm town!

[pieguyn]

sorry for being deadweight this game. I really don't have any excuse. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

GG all

[pieguyn]

btw Bert, your meta assessment of me isn't entirely correct. I read/follow games from time to time, but I can't force myself to read anything. plus my RL got busy as shit after I replaced in (and I was in Chicago during the entire end of D3).

the main reason I've read most of the games I replace into is that in most cases I was following them from the get go.

p-edit: oh damn, that's a pretty neat bluff. it also explains why NM needed a strongman at least.

[pieguyn]

I want to thank everyone for playing despite the difficult circumstances throughout the game.

thanks for picking this game up and running it to completion! I enjoyed it >3<

[pieguyn]

Btw pie I'll send you a pm about what went wrong this game and how we can improve!

@_@ sorry about that. I think this ultimately ended up being a huge playstyle clash with respect to you clearing yourself and me thinking the way you did it was scummy

(btw I just remembered Let the Love Spread. even discounting the fact that it was you who won that game, games like that are why I'm extremely apprehensive about fully clearing people in role madness games, given I was falsely clearing ffery as well before you recruited me despite her being pretty obviously scum via play.)

I might also tell you a secret that'll make it make a lot more sense btw.

[pieguyn]

I should have went with my town read on your endgame play. this is the 2nd game where I thought someone's play the entire game was scummy, and then that their endgame play was town as fuck, and in both cases the endgame play took precedence over the entire rest of the game.

I feel really bad over it :< I haven't been able to improve much in that regard, either.

[pieguyn]

Tell me a secret!

I already sent it

[pieguyn]

I had to look up what that meant. sorry if it ended up making you mad, that wasn't my intention ;w;