White Flag Mafia [TM2015] (Game Over)

[Regfan]

Sorry been stuck at work all day, will likely just be posting evenings when I get home and before work if I can drag myself up before 7am (Which is more than likely what I'll do), weekends will be much easier. My team are going to be keeping up with this fairly closely and posting notes in our PT too.

There should be at least some token discussion up in here (Think it'll be useful now if not will certainly be later in this game/tournament). I used two for town here and wasn't even the biggest hog in our team, Empire took three. Want to know where/how other teams used their tokens.

CES/Llama; Is the push on Cheery based around "Cheery may have used a scum token", if so that's something our team (Well Empire and myself) were considering ourselves, if it's based on his entrance post (And subsequent posts) then I'm missing it and you should elaborate on what I'm missing for me.

Llama; Would also like explanations behind the town reads on Oversoul and Psyche (Zach I can kind of agree with, think he'd use town tokens here).

Don't like Elks jump onto Oversoul in Post 29 looks like scum finding something weak to throw their vote down for / enter the thread with, especially don't like how it ignores everything else that has happened - do want to see if my team sees the same thing here but all of them are asleep at the moment. Not seeing the Ika scum reads - find his posts dreadful but don't exactly think they're highly alignment indicative.

Vote: Elk

[Regfan]

Regfan, you know what happened when you went off on your own last time D1.

Low blow man, low blow. Not a huge fan of RVS'ing and think discussion along token usage and reasoning will be more beneficial long-term.

I don't make anything of CD's initial post, I remember him voting in that manner as an entrance several times (As both alignments), his second post I'm also not really swayed much by but admittedly I'm not the best at reading him and will likely rely on my team-mates a little more for him so I'll wait see if they're seeing what you are when they get up or I'll just attempt to read him via PoE which'll be easier once people start posting. What'd you think of Elks vote/post?

PEdit: Please stop shit-posting, spamming this thread is going to make it harder to keep up with and will likely make it so that a) People will be less inclined to re-read later in the game which is needed in this particular setup and b) Make team-mates less motivated to follow along. Instead why don't you actually state a read you have on someone at the moment and why, heck I'll settle with your teams thoughts on this game right now.

[Regfan]

BBT; I don't think token usage is as much WIFOM as you're making it out to be, think I can tell when people are lying about token usage quite easily based on meta (Know this is something you disagree with as a concept but in instances like this it's quite useful) and think not just what they claim but the way they claim it will be very fruitful. While I agree that a lot of reasoning can be weak in the early game (Though I normally have a few strong town reads by this point, not finding them this game, feeling like a n00b) the main issue I take with Elks post is it looks like him posting for the sake of seeming "here" while throwing a vote down on something that really isn't an alignment tell claiming it is one and pretending nothing else has happened, it's a way I see scum enter the game very often.

You and I are gonna butt heads!

We don't have to? Just don't spam the thread with non-game related things, makes it too hard for me (And others) to keep up with the thread.

[Regfan]

Just got home from work, Empires still up so probably going to discuss the game with him for a bit and then get dinner before I get around to this properly. If anyone has anything they want his thoughts on re; this game let me know soon.

[Regfan]

Know it's already been said but both Empire and myself also didn't like Elks Post 74, the commenting of disliking the wagon without any specifics being stated reads as trying to seem contributive while not really doing anything. Also think his reasoning of wanting to vote Oversoul being "Trying to have token information outted = anti-town" should mean that his vote would be on me given that I've been the largest pusher of having that outted but he's still on Oversoul, dudes scum here.

Don't know how to begin to read Psyche (Though Empires telling me his scum-meta that he remembers is that he lurks as scum but it's based on old and limited meta which points town but it's fairly meh reasoning) and Ika find almost all their posts Bad but not necessarily alignment-tells, semi-tempted to try and trick Mina (She's very decisive) into taking a stance on them and blaming her if they're wrong. Also still not seeing the CD wagon, think him outing that he used a scum-tokens is fairly null of an action and while the fact that he has used one increases the odds he's scum I don't have a read on him from posts alone.

Still down from the normal amount of town reads I'd have at this stage, think Llama (Do want him to clarify something below), Zach, CES (Empires kind of paranoid here though and also wants something explained below but it's not something that troubles me much), BBT and TTH town, none at the stage where I'd completely bank on them though, really need more content and real thoughts and reads in this thread. Want to have T->S sorted properly soon.

---

Aeronaut; If you found BBT refraining from outting token usage as scummy in Post 55 a) Why did you not move your vote to him and/or b) Out your own?

Zach; Empire wanted me to state that he agrees with you entirely in regards to disliking BBTs Post 57, I'm not reading it that way though and expect this whole "That's wifom or meta" ect. from him, fairly positive I'll be able to get a strong read on him as the game progresses, have a p high accuracy when it comes to reading him and am leaning towards town at the moment largely for his interactions with Psyche and push on Llama. Join us on Elk, there's cookies.

TTH; Can you explain what you're referring to with "general game dynamics" in Post 81 for me please.

CES; Empire wants to know you were so forthcoming on the cheery read as that's not how he remembers you being generally especially in the early game.

Anak; Would like some reasoning or explanation behind your reads list in Post 139 specifically the reads on BTT, Oversoul, Llama and CES.

Llama; Know your super-early game reads do have reasoning behind them, would appreciate you not ignoring me and actually running me through the thought process behind having Oversoul and Psyche as town to begin with (Even if the reads have changed), you not going through that's about the only hesitation I've on in calling you a strong town read (Though Empire is p positive you're town here via content, level of thought and reaction to Anaks suspicion of you).

Assuming Empire still reads too many games, I wouldn't mind having a rough guide as to how good at scum each member of our player list is.

He wanted me to say he doesn't read games anymore due to lack of time and he's unfamiliar with a large portion of the rosters meta.

[Regfan]

Psyche and BBT, your back and forth isn't helping at all, the both of you two are just repeating the same things over and over and not actually going anywhere and don't find either of your arguments particularly useful in determining alignment. Would prefer you both drop it and discuss your own reads elsewhere right now.

Cheery, will settle with an explanation for either of the two town reads you've stated, don't care if it's based on weak shitty reasoning, just want to hear it.

It all just felt relevant. I also think I've probably grown a bit less concise over the course of the last year or so.

Fair enough, any of the town reads of mine you disagreeing with at all?

Also worth stating that my team thinks that Aeroaut fits "Wallflower scum" in that his posts his posts really just leave him in the background but don't think he makes sense with Elk as scum since don't think he'd buss D1 in this setup and more confident on Elk being scum here, want to know what you think of the two of them individually / as potential partners at the moment cause that's kind of messing up our reads a little right now.

[Regfan]

I find Elk ignoring and not commenting on majority of the points on him especially my point about if he thinks token discussion = anti-town his vote should have moved to me given that I was the largest pusher for that being outed to be a p massive scum-tell here. Also find the timing and placement of his vote move to Psyche in Post 201 to read as really opportunistic (Side note; If I'm right on Elk being scum CD makes a lot of sense as a partner, like a lot) given that it was clear from the VC above that Psyche would be a clear counter-wagon to his, lack of any explanation behind the vote at the time strengthens that and the explanation of "I'm just voting with my strongest town read" in Post 212 is an excuse I've seen scum use a lot.

Llama (And CES), I'm not reading the copper related section as a town-tell at all and if you really are I want the thought process behind that explained in super-detail because if their team were following the game and had reads (For instance having TTH as town) then it'd have been mentioned prior to the replace out or have mentioned reads elsewhere by this stage, whole thing looks like trying to add something in the scummy-vote switch post and commenting on a replace out fits.

BBTS interaction with Llama in Post 208 v Post 209 strengthens my town read - he's wrong about Llama but I don't see him pushing that point or attempting to push Llama in this playerlist as scum since he (Or at least someone in his team) would know that there are a few of us that can read Llama (And Llama is abso-god-dam-lutely town here, he's the first town read in this game I'd bank on now, his analysis and "re-read the game with different perspectives changing my reads entirely a) Fits his town-meta to a tee and b) Reads as very genuine here as does his attempt at getting a read on me based on team discussions in Post 220 and Post 221).

Not getting peoples scum reads on Anak, would love them explained. If anything Post 255 while wrong reads like he genuinely believes the points.

Don't like CDs Llama vote, think he (Or least his team ie. Hoopla) would know full well that Llama pushing lynches via information such as tokens and statistics makes a lot of sense from him and is most certainly not a scum-tell. Planning on talking with Empire about him and Oversoul when he gets up.

Makes me sick to say it but I think Ika might have become one of my stronger town-reads, his proxy discussion posts and reads as well as push to get Ffyer in here all read town, admission that he's largely just listening and spitting out GiF's reads in Post 266 and Post 268 read very town especially since I remember Empire telling me in the past that GiF dislikes scum (Will confirm with him though) and don't think he'd be following this so closely or at least taking charge of this as scum.

Lets see how I go, feels like forever since I've done one of these properly:

Town (Strongest to weakest):

Llama, [Gap], Ika, BBT, CES, Zach, [Gap], Anti, Anak.

Null / Undecided:

Oversoul (This might change depending on the peanut galleries help), Psyche.

Scum (Strongest to weakest):

Elk, [Gap], Aernoaut, CD (Also may move after a talk).

I have no idea where the town read on TTH comes from. Most of her play seems reasonably solid but not all that telling apart from maybe #135 (which just seems weird).

Liked the explanation behind the scum read on Psyche in Post 81 even though I don't really agree with it's conclusion, also liked the way she interacted and treated both Psyche and Ika following that, read as attempting to get content from the to strengthen / get a read (The "game dynamic" element of the Ika weak scum read was something I didn't really like though which Empire also picked up on). It was a fairly weak read though and am sure I'll be able to read Antihero much more confidently (his reaction towards Zach in Post 232 reads town already) but want to see reads from him.

[Regfan]

Top scum-reads right now are Oversoul, Zach and Llama.

Think you're wrong on at least two of these. Your whole scum-read and push on Llama ignores the fact that he a) Has stated reads that involve non-token discussion now and b) Him using token-usage and discussion as reads previously fits him perfectly and makes sense given that it does objectively influence alignment chances.

Work with me, what's your detailed reads on Aeronaut, Elk (Ignoring the wagon since "wow fast wagon = town" is bad reasoning especially given that it wasn't particularly fast and there were counter-wagons that were created with Elk jumping on one of them) and CD.

[Regfan]

The specific comment

just feels like a non-obvious thing to make up

. And then elk immediately connected it to the present situation in a natural way. If elk was just making something up to distract from the Psyche-vote (which, admittedly, is problematic), I would've expected a more generic statement.

Not sure I agree, the fact that the read (

Which is the only teams mentioned read

) happened AFTER the player had replaced out and at the time of his vote reads faked to me, would also make sense if it was based around a 'different' type of comment inside the teams PT.

I'd give TTH some townie points for being observant in post 81 if it wasn't solely about Psyche but it is, so it all feels fairly easy for scum to pull off.

Fair enough, was a weak town-read but of mine but think I'll get a much stronger read on Anti after I see some reads from him. Just noticed I've got a note from a little birdie that you may have used a scum token in this game, want to weigh in on that at all for me? Also any of your team following this game at all - if so would like to hear a bit of their discussion and thoughts on it - especially if there's anything on any of Oversoul/Psyche/Anak.

Yes, he has stated reads that involve non-token discussion. Yet, he is still pushing CD based on token usage, no?

It's part of the reason, yes. It's not the sole reason. P much where he's at is that he has a bunch of town reads and therefore is hunting via PoE (He doesn't have a strong scum-read and when he does he'll make it apparent) and there's nothing that he finds town of CDs himself so he's content to vote there. I know you're not a fan of meta but you're going to have to learn to accept that Llama taking statistics indicators of alignment such as tokens into account and hunting via PoE is how he plays, there's several of us that have brought this up too so at least trust me for now that Llamas not where you should be spending your time pushing. Also I wanted your read on Elk "bar the wagon speed" which I explained is a shitty reason to town-read him especially given his Psyche vote.

[Regfan]

This is my first game back in probably 10 or so months? I need to get reacquainted with how *I* would even play this game before I can sufficiently analyze someone else's play.

Can semi-relate to this, been a while since I've played in a proper playerlist and still feel like I'm missing things I should be noticing everywhere or be having stronger town-reads that what I currently do (A lot of mine are quite weak). That said would really like to see content, any content from you because a) The fact that other than the linked post of yours you've avoided me has been something that's bothered me especially considering your team mates and the past TM game and I wanted to talk with my team about and b) My memory of you was that you took strong stances and were quite active which isn't the case here.

[Regfan]

Disagree that PoE voting D1 is bad, if I've got a lot of town reads and I'm not being stubborn I've been willing to lynch inside my PoE scum pool before, it's just that well I am pretty stubborn also he's not exactly "lynching", he's voting and pressuring, there's a fairly large difference.

If setup or token speculation is scummy how come you don't have a scum read on me, I've done plenty of it?

[Regfan]

BBT, I don't think Llama and my play is as different as you're suggesting it is, a lot of your points can be easily attributed to me if you think they're scum-tells and he has objectively stated reads that don't involve tokens and are based of play now so I think your scum-read on him should really be reassessed.

Oversoul, I'm cool waiting till this weekend (I have Sat/Sun off work so I'll likely be doing a mass-reread of the game then myself) and I'd like anything your team mates have said about this game, really anything at all will suffice.

PEdit: CES, did you use a token to determine your games then?

[Regfan]

Is your scum read on Elk based on token usage?

Yes.

No.

I still think you're misunderstanding, say Llama has no one that he's "confident" that is scum (Which is the case here) but has several town reads and knows that person X statistically has a higher probability of being mafia then voting X makes sense for now. If he was pushing for a lynch right his moment on X for that reasoning alone then maybe you'd have a point but pressuring and throwing a vote there isn't an issue whatsoever. Can already tell this is probably a dumb discussion to continue since you're not going to change your mind here despite several of us telling you him using/considering them isn't a scum-tell.

[Regfan]

Zach, don't think interacting with BBT re; theory based things is worth it anymore, I've tried already and he's shown he's not going to listen. Also pretty sure he's town here so really nothing gained from talking with him over it for now. Much rather hone in reads elsewhere, still have too many weak town and null reads (Unlike Llama I'm nowhere near "I have this game solved feeling" yet and Empires p much at the "this game is hard, and bad" stage".)

Really don't like Elk changing from "I'm voting Psyche because my strongest town-read is" in Post 212 to Psyche is "still" scum in Post 352 as if to say he had a scum-read on Psyche initially which isn't the case also don't like the continued avoidance to responding to my points against him. Agree with Zach entirely that his recent lurking it reads like him attempting to wait out the wagon and hope that people go elsewhere.

As for Elk, I can totally imagine a 'Player X is really strong and can carry the game and looks town' post not immediately making it into the game and then being a source of disappointment when X trades out. I don't think 'Yay threat X is gone!' or anything similar triggers a post in thread. Just seems like a hard concept for a newer-seeming player to pull from nowhere.

What's the big kicker for me is the fact that other then the replacement comment we've had nothing from his team, no reads stated whatsoever, no comment of a discussion they've had about this game meaning the only time they've commenting on it involved a cross-game instance which I can see being discussed along different lines in a QT - don't think it's a hard thing at all to fake/change what the real comment was to "Damn we had him as town!".

[Regfan]

I don't know why I agreed to work on a public holiday, I do have the next two days off though so big rereads coming up then.

Llama, can understand and agree with the BBT, Zach and CES reads. Don't get your town read on Elk even remotely, comments you're town-reading are part of the reason why I'm scum-reading him and I'm not alone in believing that on my team, mind asking Nacho and Ffyer to at minimum ISO him and give me their thoughts on him because I really really don't like a) His avoidance of my point that if "Token discussion = anti-town" him voting Oversoul over me makes no sense and b) The timing and placement of his Psyche vote as well as attempting to claim he always scum-read him (Maybe get them to ISO me to see our teams thought process re; Elk too?). Think Ika should be much higher on your town list, much much higher.

Elk, I want Coppers (and your) explanation on the Psyche scum-read and the exact progression of how you came about having it as I don't buy Post 369 at all.

You know we don't have to actually solve the game, right? I'm just aiming to win it in three lynches and that seems pretty doable.

Solving the game is the fun part, no? Gives me something to do during breaks at work, on the bus, instead of being able to fall asleep. Okay, maybe I'm just crazy but I like to feel like I've got a very good grasp on the scum-team and have a solid group of town reads I'd bank on and I'm not having it this game yet.

I actually feel like there's probably one scum within the Zach, BBT thing. That whole fight feels forced to me.

BBT touches on this above (We're both agreeing on something, the universe will explode) but this stance makes no sense whatsoever (Thinking something is SvS or TvT does make some sense but SvT doesn't) as it implies that one of them would be town in this conversation acting awkwardly making nothing stopping from both people being town. The whole "1 scum in X/Y" is something I see scum using a lot to a) Make it look like they're taking a stance at the moment while not really and b) Allows them to line-up reasoning to throw down a vote based on flips alone later (Especially in this setup). So explain why you think the whole fight is forced for me and why you think there's probably one scum in them as opposed to both being scum or both being town.

[Regfan]

Elks Post 387 reads really town. Def need the big reread tomorrow, don't like being wrong.

Unvote

Elk, you need to post those reads and thoughts of yours in the thread instead of your PT or on skype from hereon out.

Regfan, why are you town-reading Zach and CES? Same for Ika.

Meta/Tokens.

Town read on Zach is largely because I can follow a lot of his thought process and actions, his vote on you and manner of doing it is something that Empire said he most certainly would have done too, liked his comment re; the swap in Post 226 even though I don't agree with it and the comment re; dragging you to a win in Post 340 read town - all that said this isn't ;rocksolid; like I'd like it to be. Town read on CES is even weaker and it's largely I like the way he's interacted with me and his comments re; "Wanting to rediscover his prime" read genuine as well as like his angle of questioning (Really saying this just reminds me how weak this is / how shitty I'm explaining it, doesn't help it's 2AM), explained the Ika town read in p big detail in Post 272.

[Regfan]

Ank, would like you to elaborate on the "theory" that your team had in Post 390 even if it's not something you believe in.

CES, didn't realise a single scum-token had

that

drastic an impact on alignment (Was also expecting the jump to be around 40-50%), we'd only run the town token one (Had worked out the odds of both Empire and I drawing town pre-game was 75% ignoring any other teams token usage) and were still panicking over that. Mina said she wants to try and calculate where your numbers come from when she's not so busy, want to save her some time and just throw out your workings here?

Llama, no idea if any of the others would have used a scum token but can confirm Oversouls "hate being scum" in Post 406.

Thanks for that run-through Oversoul, would like your own thoughts when you're caught up now, two questions though; 1) When/what post of Elks did Tammy initially read as town and why and 2) Can Tammy explain the "aggression is fake-able re; BBT" as he's one of my strongest town reads and find the manner he's interacted with both Llama, Zach and myself to a lesser degree to read very genuine.

Regfan, you're a funny guy. That town-read on CES is all kinds of sticky; you're right, it doesn't make much sense.

What about ika's reads makes you think he is town? How does him calling for Ffery make him town?

Not how I'd consider myself but you're not wrong that my CES town read is based on p shit reasoning, part of it is probably me hoping/wanting him to be town.

As for my Ika town read, Empire has informed me that my GIF meta isn't entirely accurate and to be slightly careful there which admittedly does weaken some of my reasoning behind my Ika town read but the manner that Ika has brought up reads does read natural (ie. the change around in Post 259) and him wanting ffyer reads town as most people (I'm probably an exception here since I read her very very strongly as scum the one town-game we've both had together) find ffyer easy to read and transparent (I feel that way about Llama over her). It's a thought process and request that has town motivation behind it, so yeah think he's town still.

[Regfan]

Know CD is probably the best place to throw down a vote given a) I still didn't like his jump on Llama b) I've got several town reads making him more likely scum via PoE and c) The scum-token usage makes him (significantly apparently) more likely to be scum but feel like that would be conceding that CESs early scum read owned me this game already and that's not something I feel like doing, not while we have this much time left anyway.

My team still thinks Aeronaut fits wall-flower scum and that there isn't any real transition in his reads, just questions that try to make him seem contributive, Empires not as bothered as I am about the "Zach v BBT" is SvT saying it could just be bad play (and admittedly he's kind of right) but the real kicker is that he's been very active elsewhere on the site yet hasn't commented on this game despite there being a lot of content since - lack of popping in to comment on Elks super town post reads more like him waiting to see where people would head next. There's a little more to this too but I'll go into that later if needed.

Vote: Aeranaut

[Regfan]

Updated:

Town (Strongest to weakest):

Llama, BBT [Gap], Ika, Elk, Zach, [Gap], CES, Anti, Oversoul.

Null / Undecided:

Psyche, Anak.

Scum:

Aernoaut, CD

(Worth saying order after the Zach gap gets really really messy.)

[Regfan]

Would be nice if someone could pop in here to bounce thoughts/reads off given I have the next hour or so free finally and all my loser team mates are asleep.

[Regfan]

Sounds like Mina owes me big time for what probably would have been several hours re-running calculations trying to get those numbers then.

I don't think CD's ignorance of your numbers being incorrect or the argument being presented itself is a scum-tell given there isn't a way for him to really respond without an awkward conversation ensuing (It's also not something he'd care to discuss as either alignment). That said I didn't like the Ika vote, the "annoyed we early wagoned him" doesn't read genuine at all. Still think the timing of Aeronaut vanishing from this game while being super active elsewhere is a much stronger scum-tell ie. After Elks super towny post he doesn't seem to know how to react at all - it's how I've seen scum act several times in this kind of situation.

Also what's your read on Oversoul? I found Post 408 townish upon first read through but the more times I've gone over it the more I think it is very fakeable.

[Regfan]

Yeah okay, I'm voting scum. Shows up instantly after being suspected, comments pretty much only on things that revolve around suspicion directed towards his slot and then tries to cover Elks post as "Stop showing up" rather than a case of Elk having a very genuine conversation between team mates posted.

CES, there's cookies over here.

[Regfan]

You p much just proved you're following this thread closely enough to know that there's a case and votes against you right now but only willing to comment in a self-preservation type style rather than actually y'know scum-hunt, get reads, state reads. Also means you had previously read Elks post, peoples town reads on him and choose to purposely not comment on the matter which doesn't fit with your scum read on him, does fit with scum not knowing where to move to after it.

[Regfan]

There's two. And it doesn't change the fact that you actively lurking here and only commenting when voted rather than when your scum-read town-tells or when people town-read your scum-read and unvote them is effectively a scum-claim.

[Regfan]

Maybe in a bit.

Cookies are a limited time offer.

For real though, I'm pretty damn confident in this, seen scum react by coming out of active lurking to respond to being scum read while not commenting on anything else in the game in this manner so many times now it's not funny, will grab a dozen or so examples tomorrow if need be.

Heading to bed hoping to see more Aeronaut votes in the morning.

[Regfan]

Sorry, been stuck out all day, have family coming over soon but will get to this after they leave in a few hours.

[Regfan]

I'm mostly just not in a particular hurry to lynch anyone.

You're boring.

Oversouls Post 437 matches a lot more with what I remember of Town!Oversoul. Feeling far less paranoid about that slot being scum now. Disagree with his "Cheery stating he used a scum token is too ballsy to do as scum" though, think him being honest was the best move as both alignments there.

Oversoul, no indepth discussion with Empire ended up happened re; you, was side-tracked about other games and other reads, still waiting for his input/read on you because it's one he's really not commented much on and Empire specifically because in our team he's the player whose thought process / reads I can understand and agree with the best, p much trying to treat this game as a hydra (Except with posting restrictions). The games I had in mind were last TM and Sedilla although it's more a general impression from following several games of yours in the past as well). Will explain the BBT town-read tomorrow in more detail. Do kind of agree with Zach in that most of your statements of BBT in your catch up don't really mesh with your BBT scum-read at the end but I need to go over this again when I'm not half asleep, also the "ABR is coaching BBT into being aggressive" theory is wrong, have played with BBT a few times now and he's very aggressive re; his stances and theory beliefs, have had several arguments about meta with him from memory.

Bulb have crack-pot theories and reads actually fits very much with what I know of Town!Bulb, reading the theory in Post 466 (While obviously wrong) as town, want to know Bulbs updated thoughts on the theory when he gets around to this game though. Also want to know Anks reads himself.

To both Llamarble and Regfan, why did that comment seem weak to you (and your teammates)?

Empire thought the "game dynamic" comment was overly and purposefully vague and fit with scum leaving themselves an opening to jump back on later with the excuse of "I've always scum read X", he wanted me to get a detailed explanation from TTH and I didn't mind TTH's one in Post 193.

I'd be very surprised if there weren't at least 2 scum in {Cheery Dog, Aeronaut, Ankamius}. The only tricksy decision now is who to lynch first since it would be such a waste if we mislynched D1.

Aeronauts the D1 lynch, he is still obv as fuck scum and both Mina and Empire agree with me on this which means he needs to hang NOW since Mina never agrees with a vote being actually down (Pls don't kill me Mina). I think the Ank scum read is wrong, it's more likely Aero/CD/Psyche(?).

[Regfan]

Jesus that was a mess of a post. Just spewing my thoughts out really at this point, might as well get it all out before I crash I guess.

Llama, BBT, Ika (I know people aren't as sure as I am about this but I really don't find see him constantly suggesting the'd play "slayers gambit" as mafia nor do I see the GIF interaction type posts coming from him as scum, think peoples hesitancy is largely due to the lack of content/larger posts which I dont think will ever come from him), Elk (His skype reads discussion post is Seriously Town) and Zach are town and never ever to be lynched, like ever ever or there will be words.

I think CES (My team is still telling me to be cautious here though but I've liked most of his reads/thoughts so far and still think his "former glory", "would settle with a decent win after my last town games" type comments are genuine), Oversoul and Ank (I'm reeeeeally not getting peoples scum reads here) are town. I had a town read on the TTH/Anti slot but Antis avoidance of this thread has killed most of that.

Aeronaut is ObvScum and CD is SuperLikely to be scum too.

Really just need to spend more time figuring out Psyche/Anti more now but feeling much better about my reads and the gamestate now then I was a few days ago.

[Regfan]

Oversoul, 1) It's been elaborated on already why CD would claim his token as scum; he was already attaining suspicion/focus on potentially using one, him coming out and claiming it outright gives him control of the situation and cuts out all speculation and again I don't think he's one to try and hide or keep something like that secret regardless of alignment - it's how is playstyle is. 2) Just want to confirm this; your stance based of posts at the end of your catch up on BBT personally was town but Tammy/your team mates had a theory / were leaning towards him being scum that was coached, is that right? If so how come you threw him into the scum pile rather than null-scum or even null-town? That's the bit I'm not following at all.

Anti is probably town.

It's hard to exclude the possibility of Psychescum but Ank just looks that much scummier.

Though that too initially (Moreso due to TTHs play and Antis earlier reaction to it being stated he'd replaced into a scum slot) but Empire also being unnerved by him not popping in with any real reads or content since (Albeit it seems his inactivity is site-wide) and me not really having that many scum-reads other than CD/Aero means that my weak town read there is very possibly wrong. Also on a reread I thought his mention of Aero in Post 392 fit very much like how I'd expect scum to treat a partner in this sort of setup "X is a big topic, I'll take a stance

later

" while not even chiming in remotely then.

As for your element on Ank, I find the "All 3 lead wagons are on town" theory to match his teams "Llama/Regfan!Scum" theory. Also not sure if you've mised it but he did state at the end of his post

"I'm not convinced that either of your slots is town per se, but I'm less convinced that you two are scum with this strategy in mind at the bare minimum."

which is taking a stance albeit a fairly waffly one. Sure, I'd love more reads from him, sure I think his theory is crack-pot and makes little sense (I find this comes from town more than scum though especially how he did it) but I am flat out not seeing the scum-reads on him.

I still like Psyche for scum; BBT is virtually conftown if he does indeed flip town

, although I'm townreading the slot pretty hard anyway.

Bolded is going to have to be explained for me.

479 - Regfan, you don't see scum using 'I'm just acting scummy so people will vote me' as an excuse for their play...really? It seems a perfectly valid reason for scum to use to excuse their play. Can you elaborate on your Ank town read as well?

It's moreso that I don't see him intentionally attempting to draw focus to himself in an environment like team mafia as mafia in the manner he's doing it, I think he'd be content to lurk into the background. Town read on Ank is weak and not something my team is backing me on but I find the moon-logic of Bulbs theory to read town, I liked his explanation behind the Llama and CES scum reads in Post 238 even if I don't agree with either, same goes for Post 255, I can understand someone who hasn't played with Llama finding his change of reads (Which he does a lot) as scummy.

[Regfan]

Regfan finding CES town for "reclaiming my glory days" comments seems strange to me; if there is ONE statement I could easily fake as scum it's the "here's what I was hoping to do as town" statement: "please let me do my thing; I really want to play a spectacular town game here to start a new streak of crushing town wins and contend for a paragon repeat."

Empire wanted me to tell you that he read both of those lines as sincere too and are nearly the sole reason he's not uber paranoid about CES's play and playstyle here not fitting the old meta he has for him as either town or scum - he's still finding it weird how forthright CES is about his thought process here. Mina thinks the mention of it in Post 301 is alignment-neutral given the "or draw scum" element and admittedly she has a point with that one but I still like Post 49 and Post 384.

[Regfan]

Aero scum flip (P much a given now) pretty much entirely clears Elk and makes Ika very likely town (Sadly had both of those reads already).

Llama, do you make much of Aero responding to me and ignoring the fact that Zachs voting him?

[Regfan]

Going to take an official punt now; Aero-CD-Anti, you heard it here first.

Content with a lynch happening now but really don't want people to ever forget that Llama/Zach(Recently had a slight period of paranoia here but Empire talked me down from that bridge)/Elk/BBT/Ika are never-lynch if I die and that the above three (Aero/CD/Anti) need rope.

BBT, ika keeps including himself into conversations when he's taking no real heat at the time / no real chance of him being lynched to try and chime in and contribute (Even though most of it is via asking p useless questions but that's more him just being Bad), his recent interaction with you here is a key example of that. I think he'd happily just continue to lurk out those type of situations as scum, also my town read on him is largely due to his GIF mentions.

Nacho thinks Aero + Cheery; not so much Ank (combined scum effort against me seems unlikely to him). He provided reassurances for Zachtown (#320 in particular shows the full confidence of never getting lynched hard for Zachscum to demonstrate) and liked the same CES post others have. Also pointed out some townish Psyche posts (groupings post shows thought process; doesn't seem like the type of thing scum would bother with).

Fact that he's at the exact same spot I am re; Ank / CES is nice to hear. Not getting the Pysche part though, don't think there is a genuine thought process from Psyches grouping post; lack of explanation or ability to explain the Elk/Me grouping when TTH pushed for it proves as much but I'm not sure if 'shitposting' like that is an alignment tell for him or not. Would like a more detailed read on Pysche from him since I've gone over him close to a dozen times now (Spending travelling time ISO'ing to see if I'm missing stuff) and I still don't have a read on him and I don't like not having a read on someone.

Aeronaut (5) - Zachrulez, Regfan, Llamarble, Cogito Ergo Sum, Oversoul

wagon composition isn't anything to write home about either

i like tth's reads better

can we do those?

Bolded makes absolutely no sense to me, fact they come back to back make it even worse. TTH's reads pretty much consist of stating a scum read on Ika, Elk and Psyche in Post 81 and then adding CES to the list in Post 135 so if the players you're wanting lynched/not trusting include Ika/Elk/Psyche/CES 3/4 of them are not on the wagon ie. Shouldn't that make it a good wagon for you? I'll rephrase since I don't feel like I'm being clear enough; you not liking the wagon doesn't add up since there are several different wagon combinations you'd say the same (or worse) about and nearly none you'd be able to claim to like. You using the wagon-dynamic to avoid getting on really reaaaaaally looks like wanting to dodge lynching a partner here and has p much entirely killed any inkling of a town read I still had on you.

[Regfan]

Multiple people insisting that they're fine and comfortable being the hammer vote but not being the L-1 vote is nonsensical and stupid. Really hoping I can at least wake up tomorrow to see a scum flip rather than this thread not have progressed at all. Still at Aero-CD-Anti.

@BBT re; Post 597 other than the Ika/Anti and maybe Llama reads we disagree on which of my reads do you think is "so off here", also thought I made it fairly clear that Ika was one of my strongest town reads in Post 272, Post 382, placement in Post 412 and Post 479 and Ika hammering when given the chance (Someone being at L-1) is just a thing he does. Is it a good thing, no. Is it pro-town, no. Do I like it being a fact, no. Would I love to lynch him and punish him for his shitty play, yes but not doing that in a team mafia game where I think he's town and it's not just me putting in effort but my team and other teams as well.

@Oversoul re; Tammys case on BBT in Post 605 I don't remember the game Tammys talking about but do know that I found WJ difficult to read in alt-based games generally. I don't thikn BBT being 'aggressive' or 'stubborn' with opinions on reads or theory is a scum-tell at all, I've played with him a few times now (I'll grab the meta links later if she wants them) and find his play here to match his town more than his scum, as scum I find him more mechanical and less emotional / confrontational whereas as town he's more 'in your face', he's reading as the latter here especially with things like Llama, Ika ect. So no, I'm not seeing her scum-read here, ask her to throw the meta games links she's talking about to you though, also would like her reads on other players in the game.

assumption: everyone is either a townread or a scumread. not so. tth is saying that aero's chances of actually flipping scum are pretty much random and i'm inclined to agree with that

Yes but using the "wagon-make-up" as a reason for not voting Aero when the wagon make up is largely null reads rather than your scum reads which are voting elsewhere makes no sense whatsoever, also find it hard to believe that you have literally no read on Aero at all given I'd bet a lot on him being scum here.

Reg, just curious why did you only ask CES about my 408?

Few reasons, a) Find him to be one of the more logical (Removes emotion from things fairly well) and competent players in the game, b) Thought his stance and explanation would assist me and getting a read on both yourself and him and the main one c) He was online at the time and wanted a real-time conversation since I feel like I've been playing catch up given my timezone and work commitments which is a shitty feeling.

[Regfan]

I still like Psyche for scum; BBT is virtually conftown if he does indeed flip town

, although I'm townreading the slot pretty hard anyway.

Bolded is going to have to be explained for me.

Ank, still waiting on a response to the above.

[Regfan]

Waking up to see no scum flip is a sad sad thing, better have it when I get home from work.

And you're still going to be expected to get Ank lynched if 'marble and I get nightkilled and the game isn't over by D3, just fyi.

Highly doubt I'll be out living you here, Empire keeps trolling me saying "u so ded tonight, rekt noob" and he's quite possibly right. Fairly sure you and Llama know what to do in that case though; hang CD and if that doesn't end it Anti (If by some chance it's still not over then probably Psyche afterwards).

I am a little anxious about Reg, CES, and Llamarble wanting to get the game to night as quick as possible. Not for the fact that I think Aero is a bad lynch target, but rather I worry we may be stifling discussion. I am a fan of crystallizing Aero's reads/interactions before he has the chance to muddy the waters, if Aero is scum.

The threads stagnating at the moment and the longer it takes for a lynch to occur the more BBT and Ika ect. will shit-post and push each other for nonsense reasons, rather lynch scum and not have two of my town reads tunnel on each other. Also it's quite clear that Aeros getting lynched, anything he pops back into here and actually says (Kind of think he's intentionally going to lurk out his death) will be planned and difficult to read into.

[Regfan]

Still no scumflip makes me very sad, I was looking forward to it after work. Heading straight to bed I think, exhausted.

Psyche, you should listen to your team here (Especially since you're kind of not doing a single thing yourself).

After running around in ISOs for about 20 minutes and then returning to this post, I'm pretty sure the problem was I misworded Psyche flipping scum as town. The reason is because their interactions looks really jagged on Psyche's side whenever they have them.

Yeah, though that might have been the case but if it wasn't wanted it really explained since I couldn't follow the logic of "X player being town makes Z y other player even more likely to be town based on their interactions".

[Regfan]

Still very confident on BBT (Singer told me she thinks she can read BBT after being a scum partner with him in a prior game and will get around to reading him here to confirm this later when she has time), Elk, Zach and Ika are town. Still lean towards Oversoul and CES being town. Significantly less sure about my Ank town read, think Llama dying over me means I probably have a read wrong and here's the only one I can think might be.

CD is still very very likely mafia and as much as it pains me to admit it I probably should have buried my ego and sheeped there D1.

Vote: Cheery Dog

Do need to get a better grip on Anti/Psyche - still think Anti's "wagon is meh" as a reason for not joining doesn't make an ounce of sense given that his scum reads were elsewhere and didn't like his explanation following it up, really need some updated reads from him with reasoning attached.

Psyche - What are your teams thoughts on this game at the moment and why did they think you should have jumped on due to the wagon-make-up?

Tammy and I agree on something!

You're both going to have to explain it for me, I'm not seeing it at all. Still find his comments in Post 49, Post 384 and Post 608 as town.

PEdit: Eh, that really does nothing for me Oversoul, I was also rushing it into night and fairly confident that we were hitting mafia, can very easily understand if CES was in the same boat as me especially since I thought the game was going to be as easy as going 1-2 (And maybe 3) and didn't want to waste time watching my town reads fight over stupid things, so why does that reasoning not lead you to having me as scum then?

[Regfan]

my team is rather useless at the moment
they thought it was safe to vote aero

because the others voting him seemed legit

The bolded here is what I want an explanation on; does that mean they had a town read on majority of the wagon or purely thought they were competent player? If it's the earlier would like to hear the exact reads and stances they've given you. Wouldn't mind your own thoughts too.

[Regfan]

Elk, you're going to have go into more detail how Ika v BBT isn't TvT for me as 1. I don't think it's possible to differentiate an account being SvT and TvT given that in the SvT element at least one player is town and therefore there's no reason both can't be and 2. I have a town read on the both of them. Zar did want me to mention that he liked your "Ikas attempting to turn this into a semantic type battle" point and finds that scum often resort to going down that path but I think it's just a case of Ika being bad here. Would also like to hear Coppers updated reads on the game.

Anti, how caught up to date is TTH on this thread - also ask her to explain her Psyche scum read in more detail as well as her comments on his deadline play, really need to see some actual thought process here because think you attempting to continue pushing Psyche and using TTH as reasoning behind that comes across as fake and would like your own independent reads right now, don't care if they're not in depth just throw em out.

Singer got around to reading BBT, I'll try and paraphrase her thoughts but she likes his stance on token usage (I don't) and finds it mirrors her thought process about them as well as find the later part of his ISO to have a large difference in effort here v the newbie she played with him where he was scum. She thinks his posts here aren't as stubbornly void of content as they were over there and finds Post 483 and Post 485 town especially him questioning Ank about the town read on himself as she thinks he'd happily just accept is as scum.

Oversoul please don't forget to respond to the bottom of Post 677 how are you differentiating CES and my push for the day to end quickly? And I want Tammys meta on BBT because that's now two of us that think his play fits his town meta more than his scum meta so her stance on him doesn't add up for me at all.

so GIF and I are considering switching games.
who think yay and who thinks nay (outside of BBT who has yet to admit his contridiction or justifying his smatics)

If you're going to continue having useless back and forths with BBT (Him stating that you 'abusing' the hammer-meta you have isn't him stating that he has a town read on you merely that you're using it to your advantage to avoid actually throwing down a vote and allowing yourself to have lots of doors open in terms of who you can hammer which he is right is a disgusting strategy and if I wasn't town-reading you I'd be happy to watch you die over it) then I'd vote yes.

[Regfan]

I've had a dreadful day at work, going to just crash and go to bed now. Will catch up on this game tomorrow morning.

[Regfan]

Couldn't even get to sleep so caught up here.

Anti re; Post 726 you're missing what I'm saying completely, what I'm after is you actually posting reads and content, I had a town read on TTH before the switch and liked your reaction/response initially after the switch. My issue really is with your lack of reads and content and your explanation with the "wagon" dislike from yesterday (Albeit that's kind of less of an issue given that Aero flipped town and I was reading it as you trying to avoid bussing). So reads, please.

Oversoul/Tammy switch means that the Oversoul slot is super likely to be town here, don't see Tammy switching into a scum slot willingly.

Ank, explain that CES scum read for me especially in light of your "reads reset" comment in Post 683.

Overoul I'll just wait for Tammy to pop in to discuss her CES/BBT reads then since having you as a mouthpiece isn't working since I still don't get what she's trying to say. Reads list (Even if it's just a S->W) type one would be nice before you leave. Also was nice playing with you again even if so briefly.

t is it about CD that makes you think he is safer to lynch? I feel like this is a repeat of CES last time this game happened. *sigh* At least Tammy will be the one who can deal directly with him. I find it odd that you include 608 as CES being a town post. Why did you use those posts specifically? All of them are fairly low impact. Maybe I haven't played enough games with CES to truly understand how he plays.

I don't get what you're saying in the first sentence, CES was town last TM so you may need to rephrase that (If what you're asking what it is about CD that makes me fairly comfortable to vote there it's a) I found his stance around Llama to read very fake particularly his vote in Post 251, b) The Llama death when he was likely to come out all guns blazing at CD today over me who had a weaker read there comparatively, c) The fact that I town read majority of the playerlist making him likely scum via PoE alone strengthened via the token usage enhancing the odds of him drawing scum) and those posts read the most genuine from CES - think my best chance of reading him is tonally since a lot of his actual reads and stances are things I can see him fake.

We have a large scumread on regfan.

This post triggered the need for the vote to be laid down, as it's just an excuse to lay away from the awful case that was there yesterday. (awful case being from my Post 462 where I called it out, although Gamma also didn't like the comment about elk that I said was fine). That post then goes about that something else should have been down instead of the aeronaut lynch, aka my lynch, aka a different townie dying earlier. My flip is not going top have changed the matters. I still fully expect to have been lynched before lylo because of the whole token thing - which is always worth considering.

Don't like nor can I follow any of this at all, doesn't read even remotely genuine (Nor does the fact that you have "team reads" that are severely outdated that weren't brought into the thread when they were "given" to you - looks more like a "Lookie here, I can fake having had team reads" to seem town). Still think the fact that Aero avoided commenting on anything really game-related other than the fact that he was being FoS'ed to be a massive massive scum-tell. Only thing I'm annoyed at is that it's now twice in a row (Last TM I forced through a lynch on Amrun who was the sole town player in my scum pool instead of joining CES and co elsewhere on actual scum) that I've been wrong and I hate being wrong, really really do.

[Regfan]

Regfan, you must be able to see that 726 is a town-looking post. Can we just lynch Ank today? He is so scummy.

The issue I have with it was the lack of reads/stances from him, really really needed that, starting to see it in Post 772 and Post 784 and Post 786 and feel much better about him being town due to them, the first and third reading the most genuine. Also you're not reading CD's whole "my teams old ancient reads exist and are x/y/z" as a huge scum-tell and something that reads as faked (If they were legit he'd have mentioned them earlier). Still have a few reservations on Ank but I'm willing to concede that my town read that I had on him is completely dead and I may have been wrong there.

Really like and can follow all of Zachs reads and stances in Post 747.

The Ika-BBT interaction are really starting to piss me off, fairly sure you're both town here, you're both not helping anyone by taking snide little comments towards the other person and you're making the thread a) More frustrating to read and b) More inflated making it harder for players/teams to keep up with. Quit it out, please or if you're really convinced the other is scum (You'd very likely be wrong) then make a big case post on it rather than having one line back and forths.

Actually really like Anti's explanation for the Psyche scum read in Post 772, the "team-mates told me" section was something I also had an issue with since it doesn't really make sense at all and the fact that he's dodged any attempt to state reads when I've pushed him for them is also something I'm disliking, might carve out time to do a proper meta read through of him later to see if I can get a feel on whether it's just a playstyle thing for him (The only mention of his meta Empire gave me before he replaced out was that Psyche lurks more as scum which is recent play kind of fits).

Regfan - why would you really consider yourself a nightkill target over marble last night?

Ego.

I'm p much obvious town (Essentially universally town-read), active and I'd like to consider myself competent as town, thought the fact that there were a few players that scum read Llama during several points of yesterday (BBT/Ank to name a few) would have made me the more likely kill, also the fact that Empire was trolling me saying "ur ded tonight, rekt noob" before abandoning us. Now that you're here I'd like your read and explanation on BBTs meta because from what Oversoul pointed towards it's fairly contradictory with the meta that my team are using on him and please don't give me "It'll out my alts!" excuse, TM and being able to understand and follow your thought process on him here (P much if we're misreading him we need to know asap) is more important than alt identity.

[Regfan]

Updated:

Town (S->W):

Tammy, Zach, BBT, Ika, [Gap], Elk, CES, Anti.

Null:

Ank

Scum (S->W):

CD, [Gap], Psyche

I'll be in and out for the next hour or two if anyone wants to have a real-time conversation with me but the upper section of my town reads are ones that I'm very confident in at the moment, my town-read on Elk has weakened a little lately (Don't like his "not TvT" stance or explanation but every time I go back and reread Post 387 I have trouble seeing it come from scum), still missing the CES scum-reads and feeling better about Anti now.

[Regfan]

Sorry for the double post but should mention had some difficulty with the CES/Anti placements (I'm reading a lot Anti's recent stuff as genuine and town and can follow the thought process on it but still dislike the lack of detailed explanation re; the "wagon is mehhh" comment in Post 527 and I'm nowhere near as sold as Tammy as the "Not knowing Nacho was dead" in Post 718 is genuine).

[Regfan]

Ika, run me through your teams thought process behind the town read on Ank and scum read on Elk. More detail the better.

Tammy, I still don't entirely get what you're talking about re; his "Aggression reading fake", I'm happy to wait till you have more time to explain it properly though. As for my meta with BBT, I replaced into Newbie 1495] where he was scum, you'll notice that his play there is a lot more robotic/mechanical in posting, there's less emotion, noticed something was off about his interaction with players there but then second-guessed and town-read him thinking he'd soft-claimed doctor. Replaced into Newbie 1551 afterwards where he was town and had a ridiculously strong town read on him there, his play was significantly different, I'll let you read it yourself and notice the diferences but I find his play there matches his play here much more than his scum game does. Singers meta with him is from Newbie 1573 where she was scum with him, went into her meta thoughts on him in Post 722.

a good topic for your next post, reg: defend your CES townread.

Gone into it a few times already, it's a very weak town read but it's based of finding the tone on how he's referencing his past town games and how he wants to improve on that via winning this one as genuine examples of what I'm talking about are in Post 49, Post 384 and Post 494. I also liked his request of getting a feel for everyones scum competencies towards Empire in Post 147 and then towards Cadb in Post 164 and again in Post 383. His reads and thoughts mirrored mine for majority of the day (With the main exception being his Ank read) which I find to be a hard town tell for scum to fake convincingly.

[Regfan]

Sorry Regfan if you are as super town as you say you are because I'm sure you'd expect me to town read you by now without concern. In a vacuum I'd have you as town, but I did follow that one game where you were scum, the one where wake fake claimed on ffery, and I was hard town reading you there, so I know that when you really want to you can do what I expect from you as town. I don't *feel* like this is the case here; I just want to take a minute to be sure.

Nah, it's fairly understandable, I don't think this is anywhere near my most 'obvtown' game at all, my timezone and work schedule (Thankfully have today off) have made this game really hard to keep up with in live time which makes all my reads and catch ups feel like I'm just reading and analysing a game that I'm not even playing, makes for very limited interactions with other players and opportunities to enhance reads and I think I'm at my best when I'm able to work and discuss reads with players in constant communication, hopefully you replacing in helps that. And yeah, I'd consider that my best scum-game ever though I still think there's a fairly noticeable difference between that game an my town game (Though it's nice to hear I'd have tricked you as scum!).

While you're here what's your read on Ank/Psyche/CD at the moment?

Pedit: Lame. Night.

[Regfan]

Ank, I'll reread CES later tonight; if you could bullet point your case on him in the meantime would be very much appreciated.

Regfan - what makes this game any different than any other game where you're in a different time come and have to play catch up?

Got promoted a few months back which has meant that I'm now no longer able to check the site at work/american day time other than in my 5 minute breaks ect. which isn't enough time to catch up or post, means that I only have from when I get home (7PM my time or later generally depending on my shift at the time) when no one else is generally awake or online which stopped me from playing mafia altogether until this TM. Fact that this is TM also means I have to try and keep up with other games as well as interact as much as I can with three team-mates who live on the other side of the world certainly doesn't help.

[Regfan]

Reading the above two posts as p genuine, specifically the "I'm not a good team player" admission behind not outing team-reads and while it's super annoying and wrong I don't think he'd be attempting to use BoP on me at this point as scum especially when it's p fucking obvious that I'm not going to be mslynched here, think he'd instead be focusing on pushing someone that would have a legit chance of being lynched over him. STILL want reads and thoughts in more depth from him but really not feeling good about my vote on him anymore and think I need to step back here.

Unvote

CD, if there are any other thoughts your team have left you inside your PT (Either in the past or from now on) I'd like them posted in the thread, I don't care if they're not "phrased perfectly". Also would like links whatever games you're comparing me not being as 'obvtown' to since I don't actually remember playing with you at all? outside of marathon games which I play rather differently entirely.

The main gist I'm getting at is that CES is much more dismissive and aggressive against me and a lot more calm and inquisitive against Cheery Dog throughout the game, yet apparently Cheery Dog was a stronger scumspect until very recently.

I don't really agree with this being the case, the only posts I think he's like that with you in is Post 475 and maybe Post 653 and even then I don't read that as a scum-tell given that I was also annoyed by stalling of the day at that point. Gone over his ISO several, several times now and I'm still flat out not seeing the scum-read on him, don't get me wrong he's not in my 'ubertownbetthegameonthem' pile but I'm not seeing what others are here.

@BBT; Re; Psyche in Post 835 it's certainly something I'm considering right now. Want to check with my team first to make sure they also read CD's recent stuff as more genuine/town and then do a meta check on Psyche but that's probably where I'll be throwing down a vote, don't like him popping in every time he's mentioned promising content and reads 'later' and 'soon' without any follow through whatsoever like in Post 836. Also still think his team-mates comments re; the wagon yesterday and him using them as reasoning is a scum-tell too.

[Regfan]

Come down with a fever, just going to crash and recover. I'll get to this tomorrow hopefully.

[Regfan]

My teams not as convinced like I am that CD's recent posts read town but I think I'm happier going here for now:

Vote: Psyche

The constant postponing of content and excuses while popping in whenever his name's mentioned reads as a fairly big scum-tell. Also remember Empire telling me his scum-meta was to lurk hardcore which he's doing here. Still not sold on CES being scum but admit that I don't like him saying he found Aero scummier before Ank in Post 839 given his response to me in Post 217 about Aero while stating a scum read on Ank in Post 145.

"mirroring my thoughts" is an unreliable towntell and depends on your reads being accurate and it's trap you seem to have fallen in.

one that you should've snapped out of as soon as aero flipped town.

I don't agree at all, mirroring my thoughts and reads isn't easy for scum to fabricate at all and doesn't entirely depend on my reads accuracy ie. If I'm reading a townies actions of doing X/Y/Z as scummy or townie and someone else has either mentioned the same thing previously it's a fairly strong town-tell. If it were merely a case of 'agreeing' with my read after I'd already stated it you'd have a point but I don't think that's entirely the case although I agree that his progression of the Aero read isn't anywhere near as good as I thought it was.

But this has pretty much always been your play style though. I always think of you as the come in at weird times with catch up thoughts and posing questions but not in real time interacting with people. Why do you think you'd be less obvtown due to it (and didn't you think you were?)

When I played in the past I had several days off during the week, was able to post late late at night when people in the US were just getting up or middle of the day my time when people in the US were still awake, can't really do that anymore. And I think I'm at my most town when I feel a real emotional interaction or connection to the game which is brought up by pushing/questioning people in real time and when I get frustrated or really convinced of a read I think that's something that I don't replicate in my scum play at all and I don't think I've gotten to that level of emotional connection other than slightly with the Aero push, still thought I'd make more sense being shot over Llama though given several people were FoS'ing him yesterday for god knows what reasons. It feels weird for me to admit but I'm feeling slightly lost in this game at the moment and it's not even due to a lack of town reads (I've got several reads I'd bank on being town) but moreso due to a lack of scum reads I'm confident in and feel like I'm second guessing myself too much (Mina joked around saying I'm becoming her and I'm worried that I am), I'd really appreciate your help to break me out of this feeling and I know you hate it but a reads list would be nice.

What do you make of CD's recent stuff, my team aren't reading Post 842 and Post 847 as town as I am, Zar thinks his "BoP" argument doesn't make an ounce of sense with his admission of not knowing my play or meta at all and him fabricating reasoning to push on me, I don't think I agree with him; I don't see scum!CD thinking he'd be able to get away with that reasoning at all and would know I'm not getting ML'ed here but Zar thinks scum always "push against the grain" to seem town so he's not reading it as a town-tell at all. I've probably phrased this all terribly but really overall do you see what I am there?

If you end up flipping scum in this game, I fucking promise you I will push for your lynch every single game we play.

I felt the opposite about this post as Tammy did, I flat out do not understand this stance; wouldn't you be more pissed of with me and others for misreading and convincing you to look elsewhere if Ikas scum and more upset with Ika if his play here (ie. Being useless / arguing semantics) if he's town?

[Regfan]

Still not feeling even remotely better, hate being sick. I'm attempting to organise a time to meet up with a few team-mates to properly discuss this game, if people have any questions or topics we want to discuss (Outside of the obvious ones of CD/CES/Psyche that we're already going to go over) let us know.

my scum meta is in fact to kick ass and take names

This and the continued "i'll get to this later, i really want to be here but later" doesn't cut it for me. If you're town actually contribute, state reads or replace out, at the moment I can't find any real stance from you whatsoever and the fact that you're only showing up when FoS'ed or mentioned is a fairly large scum tell.

I agree that the "I'm not a good team player" admission but it also doesn't really relate to his alignment all that much? The BoP thing all feels like a bunch of WIFOM to me - CheeryDogscum would most want to look town here rather than anything else. It's worth looking back at his ikavote and seeing that he never explained it, didn't push it even as ika did become the #2 wagon and dropped it Today with a comment that was possibly even vaguer than no explanation.

You've got a point re; the admission not being as town as I had it but I do find a semi-natural progression in his reads, when I ISO'ed him I noticed he'd already stated a slight scum read on me in Post 542 so I don't think him voting me today over Ika is a huge issue, if anything it's not the fact that he dropped his Ika read to push me that bothers me but his usage of BoP while claiming to have no real experience with me whatsoever that I don't like.

[Regfan]

I think we should lynch Psyche's slot where it stands.

Agree, I'm pretty much at a point where I'm no longer buying his constant excuses for avoiding to post content and actually take stances (His only "content" would be Post 89 which reads like throwing random names together for no reason and not scumhunting), combine that with the fact I've got town reads elsewhere and am doubting my CD scum-read and still not seeing the Ank/CES ones at the moment with the fact that Psyches "team-mates told me to join due to the people on the wagon in Post 652 which Anti pointed out the lack of specific name, reason or conversation information makes it look really fake make him the person I'm most confident flipping scum here at the moment and if he's town he needs to start actually contributing or replace the fuck out.

[Regfan]

Haven't had a chance to read the recent posts and have to head off to work now.

@Mod - I'll be V/LA for the next 2-3 days due to family issues.

[Regfan]

Phone posting using works net. I'll have internet turned back on either tonight or tomorrow night at home a d willd be able to catch ull then.

[Regfan]

Finally got home and have internet, will be getting dinner ect. sorted and then doing mass catch up on this game.

[Regfan]

Psyches "I don't think I'm likely to get lynched" in Post 966 reads town - It's an attitude I struggle to see him have as scum given how little and non existent his contributions are whereas I can imagine town thinking they can Town!Up whenever they want. I don't like Anens mention of Elk in Post 1007 (Will go into below) but his mention of the "weird" discusion between CD-Ika and his comment of re-looking at Llama due to the nightkill in Post 1015 and again in Post 1077 reads genuine, do want to see some more stances and actual reads from him rather than commenting on old stuff but I'm nowhere near confident the Psyche!Slot was scum.

(5) I don't know whether it is important or not but I know TheElkSpeaks from another site.

There, as far as I can remember he was trying to break the game by setup spec.

(Although my memories might be wrong and it was someone else...?) By the way he was the only one who asked the same thing I did here in 68. That gave me town-vibes. His Page5 posts (or around that) too.

A) I want this Elk meta of 'breaking the game' ect. from you and B) I want you to explain to me how you're reading his play here as "breaking the game by setup spec", he's doing the opposite of that here, he voted Oversoul BECASUE Oversoul used setup spec and suggested it's usage is a scum-tell.

I like Ikas push on BBT posting elsewhere but not here in Post 972, players doing so is something I always find suspicious and normally makes me uber paranoid, I do follow BBTs explanation for it in Post 994 though but that said my town read on BBT is p much dead, I don't like his Post 1023 - he should know full well how it is to have team-mates having differing opinions of reads given that him and Titus have essentially the opposite read on Ika so him pushing that being a scum-tell makes no sense and the

"Hmm. Regfan and CES make so much sense as well."

line reads kind of fake especially given that he has a town read on me, also don't like the fact that while he's argued against the push on CD (For token reasons) he's never really taken a solid (or any) stance on him at all and given that this is essentially turning into a CES v CD thing (We're lynching CD ftr, Zachs point on him is spot on) him not doing so makes a lot of sense if he's scum with CD.

Tammy, you've repeated several times now there's "one" post of Ikas that you're strongly read as town; which is it? There are several of his that read very genuine and town but there's not one singular post I'd point to being stronger than the others here. Also have our BBT reads flipped for real? I found his initial and early game posts SuperTown, his later stuff mean I might have been wrong about him; what are you town-reading of his recently?

All of Zach/Sottys reads thoughts read very very genuine, especially like his point on CD in Post 975. I'd bet everything on him being town here.

I like CES's line of questioning and push for an answer from Anen from CES ie. Post 993 / Post 999, I can see follow the motivation behind it very well and like the constant pressure he's putting on Anen about it. It's like I'm reading a different game from everyone else; I still don't see the scum-reads on CES, I wouldn't bet the game on him being town (Mina tells me to me wary of him) but I am leaning that way especially with posts like Post 1076.

CD using the excuse of "Hasn't everyone scum read me at some stage" and "If I'm calling them out they have a crap case" in Post 1000 doesn't read genuine whatsoever, he's experienced and competent enough to know that being wrong on a read =/= being scum and the fact that essentially all of his scum-reads stem from peoples stances on him rather than their posts directed and based around other players is a p big scum-tell. I also really don't buy him believing Post 1021 whatsoever, the fact that he's claiming his vote was largely due to a team-mates reads (on a post which he's stated he doesn't agree finding scummy) means he should quite easily understand the fact that team-mates reads can differ in opinion and that stating and running through my thoughts and their thoughts isn't "fence-sitting" but rather being p transparent with where all our individual heads are at.

Unvote, Vote: CD

Updated:

Town (S->W):

Zach, Tammy, Ika, [Gap], Elk(1), CES, Anti

Null/Undecided:

BBT, Anen

Scum (S->W)

CD, [Gap], Ank(2)

(1) Admittedly p much the sole reason he's this high is Post 387 which I still do not see coming from scum, that said I haven't liked his recent posts, they all read like active-lurking ie. "Look how many V/LA's" in Post 977 and "I'll go ISO him now" with no follow through in Post 1056.

(2) I don't like the fact that Mollies yet to state a read on me while Anks claiming to have no read on me at all and needing to "sort" me in Post 1013 v Post 1014.

[Regfan]

Yeah okay that was longer than I planned it to be, people should still read it in it's entirety (Seriously only takes a few minutes to read, looking at you Anen, it might be a wall but it's certainly relevant) but a tldr of it is that I'm second-guessing my BBT town-read quite a lot, no longer convinced that Psycheslot was scum, still think CES is town and the wagon on him is bad and think CD's scum and don't buy that he doesn't have reads that aren't based around others reads on him.

[Regfan]

BBT, I didn't have an issue you with you specifically stopping posting here while apparently posting elsewhere, I stated I understand your explanation ie. I understood there wasn't much more that would have been worthwhile you posting without it being fluff posts, that was something I had no issue with from you whatsoever. The issues I have is a) I can very much see you and CD being partners given your severe lack of a read on him and b) I don't buy that you'd think 'team-reads-differing from your own' is a scum-tell given you should understand EXACTLY my position since you're supposedly in the same one with Titus. It's fairly obvious from my play that I pick my reads of my team reads, I'll listen to them, I'll even voice their opinions in the thread but if I believe something differently I'm going to go with it since no offence to them but I'd consider myself a stronger town player than them plus I'm paying more attention to this than they are. I've not once said "okay my team says x, but I believe y but I'll trust them and go with x", I've stuck with my own reads and thoughts, this is something you were doing EXACTLY with Ika v Titus so you going 'that's a good point' when CD mentions it doesn't read genuine whatsoever and isn't a thought process I can follow from you.

As for your explanation on you thinking CES-Me make sense together at least there I can follow your thought process now despite it being wrong.

[Regfan]

b) again is completely different. People asked for my teams opinions, I never just openly presented them.

The way in which you do it opens up opportunities for yourself to switch reads/jumps wagons. Mine doesn't. I'm not sure how you can't see the difference here.

I also flat out state I'm not listening to Titus. Where as you leave that element of doubt where your team MIGHT effect your read.

Still think it's effectively the same thing; my vote is still

my

vote, just as yours is yours. I'm still voting

my

scum-read and unvoting when

I'm

unsure, I've never done differently this game and likely never will, I'm going to trust myself far more than them, especially since they're mostly just doing ISO's or reading specific posts I want them to look at which is less information than I have here. So you agreeing with CD saying that I'm "using team mates reads to be fencesitty" doesn't make sense. And while it's nice if my team agreed with me and had the exact same reads as me it's not something I require from them, that said I'm not going to hide or hold back my team mates reads and thoughts because posting them allows others insight into what their reads, thought process and stances are which leads towards more relevant and useful conversations and essentially turns 1 town slot into 4 town slots.

[Regfan]

I fail to see the point (if you're town) in providing your teams opinions if you're not going to listen to them.

Put it this way; if you were given the option of having 3 random spectators be able to comment on the game (regardless of whether their opinions match with your own or not) why would you deny it? Allowing it means that there's more game-relevant conversation which pushes the game forward rather than lets it stagnate and makes it easier to get reads, especially when we get a scum flip interaction wise (Who commenting on certain reads, what their comments were, who avoided it ect.) Heck use my replace into the newbie where Count ect. was scum, while my reads (Especially the Bookitty one) wasn't agreed on with everyone and was indeed wrong it led towards more information and ultimately a better decision made at the end.

[Regfan]

Trying to keep "tells" to yourself is kind of lame but fine. I'd rather you focus on explaining what about BBT's recent posts read town to you because that's not how I've read his interaction with CD / his recent posts with the exception of his response to me so far which I can at least see partly where he's coming from in.

[Regfan]

We're under two days till deadline, people need to pick up their activity right now and actually take a stance on CES and CD, anyone not voting one of them is going to lead towards us no lynching which would be fucking idiotic at this stage and hint; the correct vote here is CD.

Tammy, your point re; the fact that he should know that I'm not going stand back and trust someone elses reads entirely over my own given that he's played with me before and knows how stubborn/insistent I can be is a fair point but he's just going to respond to that with "I dont meta" ect. ect. which is beyond stupid. What I did understand/like of his recent interaction with me is that I can see how he might see CES/Me being a scum-team in that my town-read and explanation on CES could be boiled down to gut I suppose and I'm not one that really uses gut often and often don't trust my gut. We need to carve out a time in the next 24 hours to both be online and start nailing down some reads; you know full well where my heads at/what my reads are, which of them do you strongly disagree with and why.

Anti the only read in Anens reads section of the Post 1077 that I find scummy is the town-read on Elk since if he really did mix Elk up as someone else and believe that Elk was someone that "breaks games" as town then Elk voting people attempting to break the game here should have been a huge scum tell for him, not a reason to call him town. I do like elements of his most recent catch up in Post 1106 specifically his mention of two votes being parked on him but him town reading both players that did so. I'm willing to let him finish catching up but he needs to really speed it up.

I don't think Tammys "He stopped to mention something from the team thread" point of Anen is a town-tell though given the sheer amount that CES has pushed him to post teams thoughts in the thread. In fact I'm slightly bugged by his "Wgeurts checked the Aeronaut-wagon and a couple of pages of the game and said something like

"I don't know them personally but Regfan, Llamarable and CES look town, thus Aeronaut can be scum"."

element in Post 1077 given that Psyches answer when I asked him in Post 680 whether they wanted him to join the wagon becasue a) They town-read people on the wagon or b) They thought the players on the wagon were competent and his answer in Post 681 was effectively b while Anen's is a.

Actually yeah, after typing all of that Anen is probably scum here too. Also don't like how his recent posts look like setting up to vote CES over CD here.

As for my team now, Aronis read part of this game but is still going. He thinks my BBT town read might be wrong, and also suspects ika

, with CES being null and anti/tammy/anka being town reads.

I'd like him to explain both reads in depth because I could get maybe reading one of them as scum (BBT out of the two, Ika is incredibly ObvTown, badtown but Obvtown nonetheless) but I don't understand how he could be reading the

both

of them as scum. Also kind of don't like your continued lack of stance on CES, sure you might not find him "easy" to read but you have to have some thoughts on him or be leaning one way due to something.

[Regfan]

Recent Update:

Town (S->W): Zach, Tammy, Ika, [Gap], CES, Elk, Anti
Null/Undecided: BBT
Scum (S->W) CD, [Gap], Anen, Ank

@Tammy, I'll be back in a few hours (3-4) and be online again in about 15 hours, do either of those work for you to be online in?

[Regfan]

I'm here! Going to read up now, hoping you'll still be around for a bit Tammy.

[Regfan]

I'm jealous. I was just drinking bailey-type stuff last night.

Not sure I buy Anens explanation of the mix up in Post 1128, it's part (3). Mind taking a look at that while I read through? I think a team mate just commenting on a game saying "they look ok" is an odd thing to occur and I don't understand how he'd read that as 3 specific people are town read by his team. Might be the fact that I'm still half asleep but the whole thing doesn't make sense.

[Regfan]

Anen, walk me through exactly what

you

are town reading Elk and scum reading Ank for because your catch ups sugest it's very very different reasoning than why I have those reads. Also how do you have no read on Tammy/Oversoul at all? (You can ignore this if you've already gone into it since your last catch up wall).

As far as it making sense because bbt is considering a you/ces team, I get that and it was one of the things that was floating around in my mind yesterday/today, but what is bugging me is how he came to that concern. It came from a conversation with cheery dog when cheery moved his vote from you to ces. The interaction just looks really oily, but I want to look at the evolution of that thought once again because something is rotten in the state of Denmark!

I think the way he came to that conclusion makes sense, it's likely something that was in the back of his head and when someone suggested it in the thread he gave it more thought since it'd be a case of not just him considering it. I mean I always have team theories in my head, I post some of them, I don't post them all because I think some of them are crock-pot and can't explain them other than "gut" really so I don't take issue with that part of him at all. What I hated from that post of his thought was the "using/stating team mates thoughts = scum that's attempting to give themselves an out" since a) CD himself was using Gamma a team-mates reads to explain his vote and BBT had stated Titus had an opposite read than him so he'd have to understand how team reads can differ and b) He should know me better enough than to know that I'd vote with my team reads rather than what I think.

[Regfan]

Okay caught up fully.

We're not lynching CES. People need to vote CD here. CD's reads have essentially been him pushing players that were pushing him, key examples are Llamable who he backed of when I pointed out how his vote there was scummy, myself and then straight onto CES who was the counter wagon to him at the time (And it was a really slimy change of vote). Add on top of that he's avoided stating reads on majority of the room and the fact that he's not really attempted to scumhunt at all.

(4) Meta-based reads from Regfan, 814. Both CES and BBT were hard townread by him here. I only mention it because I saw in his latest post that CES was weak-town and BBT undecided. I want to see his read progression in his later posts. Regfan, was it 1089?

I never had a 'superstrong' town read on CES, he's always been one of my weaker ones, if anything it's stronger no than it was then so I don't get this question from you at all? I also think I've gone into my hesitation BBT, I really dislike his angle towards pushing me here and his avoidance of lynching CD, it makes so much sense if he's scum with CD. I still find(found) his early game play townish and more towards his town meta but his latter stuff here isn't.

I mean if anything ces is being more open with his thoughts than I've seen from him in some games.

Agree with this entirely and while it weirded our team our earlier on (Empire was saying it didn't match his meta as either alignment) I can understand Town!CES doing it in a TM setup where he thinks he needs to 'prove his worth as town'. Also agree that I think most of the push on CES is playstyle things.

[Regfan]

I'll quote the issue I have with Anen, will take a few minutes, don't vanish on me!

[Regfan]

Here's all the relevant posts:

My teammates say I should vote for Aero again just because of the people on his wagon.

my team is rather useless at the moment
they thought it was safe to vote aero because the others voting him seemed legit

my team is rather useless at the moment
they thought it was safe to vote aero

because the others voting him seemed legit

The bolded here is what I want an explanation on; does that mean they had a town read on majority of the wagon or purely thought they were competent player? If it's the earlier would like to hear the exact reads and stances they've given you. Wouldn't mind your own thoughts too.

I don't think they put much thought into it. So probably the latter.
I really wonder how other people's teammates manage to keep up with so many games simultaneously!

Also, Cogito Ergo Sum, you asked about our team's opinion. There was a question from my predecessor whether Aeronaut might be scum. Wgeurts checked the Aeronaut-wagon and a couple of pages of the game and said something like "I don't know them personally but Regfan, Llamarable and CES look town, thus Aeronaut can be scum".
I don't think I've already reached the part of the game it's referring to, so I can't decide yet whether it's significant or not.

I don't think Tammys "He stopped to mention something from the team thread" point of Anen is a town-tell though given the sheer amount that CES has pushed him to post teams thoughts in the thread. In fact I'm slightly bugged by his "Wgeurts checked the Aeronaut-wagon and a couple of pages of the game and said something like "I don't know them personally but Regfan, Llamarable and CES look town, thus Aeronaut can be scum"." element in Post 1077 given that Psyches answer when I asked him in Post 680 whether they wanted him to join the wagon becasue a) They town-read people on the wagon or b) They thought the players on the wagon were competent and his answer in Post 681 was effectively b while Anen's is a.

(3) Regfan, 680 – You meant this post in 1119. To tell the truth, Wgeurts said (I'm paraphrasing it again) "they look ok". I thought he meant "they look town" and I don't know why Psyche interpreted it as "they look competent". But if it's important I can still ask Wgeurts about it if he remembers that.
I hope he will, because he's just started helping me in reading this gam

[Regfan]

So effectively Psyche went from "my team told me I should vote him due to the wagon make up" to "I don't think they put much thought into alignments so probably just due to the players". Annen comes in and claims his team had said "Reg/Llama/CES look town so Aero is a good vote" and then backtracked to say his team had just said "they look okay" which wasn't a comment on our alignment but rather our competency level.

[Regfan]

Tammy, what do you make of the quoted posts above.

Also which of my reads do you currently disagree with/why?

[Regfan]

I know what you mean re; not trusting Psyches posts, had Anen come in and said that he was making the whole thing up and the team never left any comments about the wagon I'd have felt better about the slot than I do now though? I really don't like Anens back tracking and explanation changing from "had you 3 as town" to "thought you were okay players", I don't see how he'd mix that up nor do I see a team just leaving the comment of "those 3 are okay".

Yeah I'm not seeing that Ank town-read, elaborate on it for me please?

[Regfan]

@Tammy; Got any meta links of him seeming naturally scummy that I can read through later? Don't think I have any experience with him whatsoever so it's possible some of my issues with him are playstyle based, other than basic not being able to follow/understand all of his thoughts/stances it's also a case of a) I think Llamas death over mine makes a lot of sense from Ank!Scum, b) I don't like how he has no read on me when he has Mollie on his team who's yet to comment on me. I didn't town-read his comment of "I'd have replaced out as scum", don't believe it's true, heck I don't even believe Zach stating it is true (I think he'd know him replacing out would have been an instant nail in his coffin here) but I don't find either of them making that statement scummy I guess? The "here are my links of being bad as mafia" did nothing for me either. I still don't really see your town read here.

[Regfan]

Can you detail this please?

Llama had a fairly decent scum-read on you yesterday whereas I had you as town; I can see you leaving me alive and shooting him whereas I think if you're town scum would have shot me and used Llama to push you.

Regfan: Marble was the obvious night kill last night.

You think? Might just be Empire getting in my head before leaving but I thought it was very likely me. Also is there any more to your Ank town-read because what you've given so far hasn't done much for me, and those meta links of him would be nice please.

[Regfan]

Thanks for the meta links Tammy, will read it later tonight. Vote CD.

Don't buy for a second that Anks also in the "CES+Reg are scum" boat especially given he was saying he "didn't have a read on me either way" earlier on and then suddenly switched to scum-reading me after I stated a scum-read on him.

Actually on the CES wagon, Anti is the only one I would be comfortable calling town.

Agree with this, fact that Anen looks to be setting up to vote CES makes it worse. I'm much more confident CD is scum over Ank, if we're flashing wagoning anyway it'd be Anen (I still think the Psyche team mate conversation reads fake as fuck) but with 1 day until deadline people need to move to CD.

[Regfan]

Don't go to sleep without throwing a vote down on CD, deadlines in 15 hours here.

[Regfan]

CD-Ank-Anen makes a LOT of sense especially given Ank/Anen's stance on CES v CD. CD scum flip means one of these two have to be lynched tomorrow, think at this point I'd prefer Anen over Ank but Anks latest posts have been strengthening my scum-read there.

Also, wait. Ank and BBT seem to curiously be touting the same scenarios. Hang on.

Yeah I don't like Ank jumping onto p much exactly what BBT said before, I don't think they make sense as a scum-team together though as in I don't see both BBT/Ank setting up to push CES-Me scum-team at the exact same time here? Out of the twos I'm reading BBTs more genuine.

I didn't like the reasoning for the readswitch on me before, but mollie disagreed with me when I brought it up, so ( ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

This is reasoning that I brought up near the start of D2 this isn't new information or a new stance of mine and you've never stated a scum-read on me previously so this doesn't add up from you. It looks very much like a case of setting up to de-credit/push against me given I scum-read you.

I will be around for a little bit more tonight and will be around tomorrow before deadline.

Yeah I'll be out at a pub for the next 10 or so hours (Big NRL day here) but will be checking this on my phone between footy games.

[Regfan]

Before I pop off Mina wanted me to mention she found Ikas "Town blocking" suggestion very sincere and disliked Anks "CES-Regfan" thing as well, she found his "Tammy is almost certainly the nightkill" comment and line worse though but I don't mind that one from him?

[Regfan]

Some seriously heavy hail here in Sydney today, got hit pretty hard on the way back. Going to change and head back out.

IIRC you were townreading me for a while or at the very least weren't scumreading me, so...?

Made it fairly clear in Post 677 earlier that I thought the Llama death made you more likely to be scum - didn't have a scum-read on you then (Was more nullish) but the night kill pointing towards you was something I was considering and stated then, you never commented anything about it then but it's only now that someone else has stated a scum-read on me (BBT) do you state a scum-read on me, doesn't read as natural at all.

None of Ank "Mollie has this read but won't out it due to secret meta tell making Ika scum" "Mollie has Ika as town now" reads genuine whatsoever and him claiming she'd logged off when she was still online looked like attempting to buy time to work out how to cover this all up later or hope he wouldn't have to until tomorrow.

With that said I'm fairly sure this line below was actually directed at Ika and not you Tammy; I don't think he ever claimed that Mollie was calling your posting fake:

He thought ika was likely town but not as sure; your posting to mollie looked fake.

[Regfan]

Blah.

Phone post in, out for thr nihht but will get to this tomorrow after work.

[Regfan]

Home, had a long few days, will do some serious analysis tomorrow likely.

I really don't like Ank entering the day with jut a vote on Anen in Post 1373 rather than answering the massive amount of questions / issues that I (And others) had with his end of day reads and mentions of Mollie (I still want her reads and explanations in this thread asap especially the "ika is confscum due to meta tell" v "ika might be town!" change since that's the one I struggle to buyt he most), that said I do like his point on Anen re; the CES reads request in Post 1376. I'm not even sure I follow his thought process about the CES unvote at all, I'll likely reread it later when my brains working because literally none of it makes sense to me right now, best I'm gathering is that he didn't really scum-read CES/Me at day end but actually town-read us both but didn't want to admit it due to stubbornness but that doesn't really fit his interaction with us nor his read or stance on Cheery.

Zach, I don't actually think Ank stating that Tammy would be the nightkill and then Tammy being the nightkill points heavily towards him being mafia, he doesn't gain anything from doing that intentionally as scum (It's not something he claim town-cred from), I think she likely died because she was ObvTown and probably more right about things than I and others probably are (I'm taking a serious re-look at BBT today and hope others do as well, feels weird to be agreeing with ika though). I mean I'm still leaning towards him being scum - much less than the end of yesterday since I thought he was attempting to save CD!Scum and I actually do like his push and reasoning against Anen here but yeah I'm not reading the Tammy nightkill mentions as a scum-tell at all.

Initial read on BBTS Post 1416 was the "I'm calling the scum-team to gloat postgame" as a town-tell but I actually really don't like that his scum-reads haven't really changed whatsoever, the p much entirel lack of reconsideration and statitc reads don't read genuine, I really like that Zach also noticed this in Post 1422. The fact that in some posts he shows willingness to admit that his scum-read on me is purely interaction based with CES and dependent on CES being scum and thus not a reason to lynch me and in others huge confidence of being scum doesn't add up.

I don't like Elks vote on Ank in Post 1456 at all, his reasoning in Post 1459 can be used for a large chunk of the playerlist (Including me, I think I've only voted Elk-Aero-CD) and the timing of it when it's Anen v Ank essentially while not commenting on Anen at all looks awful especially if Anen is scum.

However, I must point out these:
(1) He started calling me scum without interacting me at all!

I really really really really don't like this point and struggle to see it coming from town ever, how is Ank calling you mafia without him interacting with you first a scum-tell? I generally interact with my town-reads more than my scum-reads especially when it's in regards to y'know my scum-read on them; you don't need to convince scum they're scum and while conversing with them can sometimes help strengthen or break a read it's not something Ank would have been able to do much given that you were claiming to be 'catching up still'. Put it this way, you called CES scum when reading through, you hadn't interacted with him whatsoever at that point how does that differ from Ank calling you scum? I see no difference there so you pushing this as a scum-tell against him looks like pigeon poop.

[Regfan]

GAH

My big post of reads got deleted due to shitty internet, fuck this shit.

[Regfan]

So yeah, I'm pretty much banking on town reads on Zach/Ika being 100% spot on (Would eat a hat if either are scum here), and still think Anti/CES are town too though if I'm wrong on CES I'll know Zar will give me shit for having symped scum here, still think his comments and response to Tammy was town too. I'm growing less and less sure of my Elk town-read, p much the skype convo post of him is the the only thing of his that makes me think he's town, him fading into the background whenever not mentioned is something I really don't like at all, might do a meta check up on him again because outside of that one post I can very much see him as scum and I'm going to hate myself if I second-guessed over something like that.

I have a slight crack pot theory of an Anen/Ank scum-team coming into today hard-pushing on each other to attempt to clear the other upon ones scum flip given they both would have known that's probably where we'd be looking at today, that said don't see that making sense since the third partner wouldn't know who to back and picking the wrong person would make them look dreadful (which scum would want to avoid in WF) so unless one of my strong town reads is scum and they're banking on just using prior town cred which I don't think is the case then they're probably not scum together. And yeah, that was super rambly but I'm just getting my thoughts down here now. Between them think I'm more confident Anens scum, still think his mention v Psyches mention of the team mates comment re; the wagon don't add up and I don't like a lot of what he's pushing on Ank for.

BBTs probably the read where I'm most conflicted/unsure at the moment, Singer still thinks his play here doesn't match his scum play in the game with her and I still find his early play and interactions with Llama as town when skimming over it but his latter play here reads as him coasting on his 'stubborn' meta rather than actually explaining reads in depth and detail which I know he can do. I'll likely carve out a few hours tomorrow to do a huge ISO on him because this is a read I need to sort; would love others reads/thoughts on him in the meantime too.

So yeah, likely voting Anen here after I get some answers from Ank/Mollie and a read through of BBT and Elk.

[Regfan]

Sorry ive got stuck working a few long back to back shifts, have tomorrow off though so will get to this thenm

[Regfan]

Really sorry guys but RL has been a bitch as of late. I'll get to this tonight (Probably 8ish hours from now).

[Regfan]

Can't apologise more to my team and you guys, really not getting any time to get on the internet to get to this game, will change tomorrow as I've taken a half day at work so I can carve time out for this when I get home.

[Regfan]

I'm home and finally have 4-5 hours of free time to spend on this game after I get dinner sorted!!!

Going to be reading up and doing some ISO's but if you want me to focus on anything in particular let me know now.

[Regfan]

Still confident on Zach/Ika being town, think CES/Anti are town too but want some things addressed from them below re; their latest posts, need to comb over Ank/Elk/BBT/Anen in more detail; taking a break and then going over them a few more times.

@Ank

- I wanted Mollies reads not because I think she's competent (I find her reads and reasoning very difficult to follow and general nonsensical but we'll just leave it at that since ;drama; isn't needed here) but because you stating that you didn't have a read on me either way while having her in your team was concerning given that I think she'd be jumping to attempt to state a read or comment on me given that a) She's witnessed a good scum game of mine (F-16s Space Game) and b) A terrible and more common scum game of mine (The Survivor game that I flaked on). And yes, I had mentioned that the Tammy death made me want to re-look and ISO BBT much more already and that my town-read on him was and is essentially dead; I've ISO'ed him twice since and I'm not confident enough to take a complete punt on him either way right now since a) I still like his early game interaction and stubbornness with Llama and while CES is right in that the limited amount of meta that Singer has with him shouldn't be impacting my read on him his play here isn't reminding me of his scum-play that I witnessed first hand, issue is that it's not mirroring the town game too much either anymore so it's not anywhere near as much a town tell as I had previously and b) I don't like his stance on me, his tunnel on you and his interactions with CD admittedly weakened by the fact that CD wasn't scum. I will be focusing on him even more the next few days (I've skimmed his posts in this catch up because it's something I want to look at in isolation after getting all the context in). What I want now though is

your

reasoning behind the placement of myself, BBT and Ika (I want more than 'minor tinglings', I want a detailed explanation behind this one) in Post 1515.

@Zach

- Empire was the one that submitted our team list and replaced out, last list that he posted in the QT was 1. WF, 2. Mini Theme, 3. Nightless, 4. Open, 5. Normal, I didn't remember the Theme being so high and Mina thinks 4/5 may have been flipped. We didn't use any tokens for game selection at all / wanted to save all tokens on Empire/Me drawing town, I've PM'ed Zor asking if he can give me what Empire submitted, will update you on his answer. Can you explain your SUPER strong town read on Anti in the meantime for me; I think he's town too but I'm not sharing the confidence you are in that read and I'd like to be confident enough to rule him out entirely - I did find his reaction towards the Ika wagon recently in Post 1611, Post 1612, Post 1615 reads town but I didn't like his Post 1472 at all*.

@Anti

- In Post 1472 you stated that scum were the constant pushers of the wagons that flipped town (ie. that it was "scum driven"), the largest pushers of Aero were myself and Llama and the largest pushers of CD were myself and CES; last read you stated on me was a town-read so stating that the wagons were bad and scum driven doesn't add up here. You're going to have to explain the disconnect for me since it doesn't read like genuine scumhunting*.

@CES

- I can understand the Anen-Elk team working since Anens town read on Elk when initially replacing in Post 1007 despite the fact that Elk had essentially done what Anen thought was opposite of his town meta doesn't add up and reads like attempting to find a reason to town read a partner and put them to the side. And Elks voting patterns especially recently look like trying to jump on or vote anyone that isn't Anen ie. The Ank vote in Post 1456, the Ika vote in Post 1582 and the willingness to possibly move over to you in Post 1537 despite the fact that his "team" had essentially had a scum read on the predecessor (Psyche) in Post 201, Post 352, Post 369 with the read only reversing on Anen in Post 1600 due to very vague statement fits as scum distancing but not wanting to buss, the fact that the significant change of read from the Psyche slot being his strongest scum read to one of his town reads when Anen was getting heat in Post 1591 with no explanation on it until pushed for it look woeful. The more I think about this I can very very much see them as partner; problem is Zach and Ika are ObvTown, I think you/Anti are town, I don't think Ank or BBT fits as a partner with both of them (Going into this below) which makes it hard to work out where the third could be in that case.

What I'm not understanding is the Anen-BBT team, their slots interaction especially due to the way that Psyche and BBT interacted earlier on (There are far too many posts for this to link, just double ISO them) and Anen and BBTs stance on each other don't read as partners. I also don't see Anen-Ank working given that it would mean scum coming into the day with the intention of them double bussing each other and having the two lead wagons be on each other which I don't think scum would do/want in a setup of this style. So yeah, what am I missing; why do you think Anen-BBT or Anen-Ank work as a team and can you think of anyone that works as a third in an Anen-Elk scum-team? That's probably my largest hesitation right now from throwing down a vote.

Also uh, you don't really think my play here even remotely resembles how I lurk as scum do you? You're going to have to explain that bit to me (Even if just to shut Mina up as Mina messaged me saying she thinks your stance on me as of late kind of comes across as you attempting to spin me as being scummy and thinks I might be getting primed for a mslynch), I don't think that's so likely since I don't think you'd think you can even mslynch me even on a bad town game of mine. I've only been gone 3-4 days max over something that was sadly unavoidable, think it's fairly obvious that I'm dedicating whatever time I can in-thread and spending as much time out of it trying to analyse the game - level of depth/detail in my town v scum play is p obvious really.

@Anen

- The fact that you called players scummy during your catch up and stated that your reads can change with more information is irrelevant, the fact is you CAN have a scum-read on someone without interacting on them so you pushing Ank saying his scum read on your slot isn't possible since he hasn't spoken with you (Something that again would be hard for him to do given you've just arrived at the time) makes no sense whatsoever. I don't get your flip from Ika to BBT in Post 1637 at all, your "if I'm wrong on Ika BBT must be scum" a) What exactly changed your mind re; on Ika to think you might be wrong on him b) Why is BBT not voting Elk a scum-tell given that everyone has multiple scum-reads and it's impossible to vote them all c) Others in the game have been town reading your scum-reads, why is that not reasoning for nearly everyone in the game to be scum? Also do me a favour and post a list (with reasoning if possible) of your current reads since your reads kind of seem to be flipping every post and I'm not following the changes or progression of the reads.

[Regfan]

You've just been WALLED.

[Regfan]

That took me far too long to write, I feel rusty. There were a few things that bugged me when reading through (Change of reads, where people were willing to vote vs what reads they had previously stated ect.) but I couldn't find them again when skimming the pages for them, ISOs after a break will solve that.

[Regfan]

I felt Anen and BBT were playing pretty nice to each other Today up until Anen's recent BBTvote. I think scum should have much clearer motivations, so that's what I feel is most informative w.r.t. interactions. But I'm leaning towards BBT-elk-Ank right now. Do you agree with my reasoning on the ikawagon?

I think Psyche (Anen) - BBT are pretty clear non-partners just based on their early game interaction though especially instnaces like Post 51 to Post 64 ect, in that exchange they both are shing the other in a negative light / drawing attention to each other and in a game where scum have daytalk I don't think scum wanting or doing something like that at all. BBT-Elk I could maybe see (It's not something I've focused enough looking into though) but I can't see Elk-Ank, Elks vote on Ank in that situation when the counterwagon (Anen) being town in that scenario doesn't make much sense as scum unless he was going for distancing but that's a p large risk to take and not something I think a scum-team of Ank-Elk would do there if they've got an easy ML lined up in Anen at the time. I can kind of see where you're coming from with the "Ika wagon coming up means that Anen has a decent chance of being town" but I don't really agree? I think BBT votes on Ika is something he's forced into doing regardless of his alignment given the sheer amount of times he's stated he's got a scum-read on Ika and wants a wagon there, the Anen vote and I can see a situation where a scum-team of Elk-Anen think their best chance of a ML is using someone like BBTs vote on Ika to drag up a wagon there.

Astericks were a linking between the Zach/Anti point.

you can quit the little jabs and you can also go screw yourself since EVERY push you've made has flipped town now. is that what "genuine scumhunting" is doing for you?

usually, that's not what it does for me when i'm town. you're scum, regfan. there, i said it. happy?

"Little jabs" is hardly what I was doing at all; I still don't understand the comment of "scum were pushing the mslynches", if that's what you thought and if you think I'm scum why not just state that you think I'm scum before; beating around the bushes with reads doesn't make sense and the manner you did it really didn't and still doesn't read genuine to me. And "every push you made has flipped town" is hardly something that should be completely surprising from you given that we just played Josh Wheldan Mafia where I strongly town-read one scum and weakly town-read the other albeit I did swing a deadline lynch on the third but I was leading on town (Marquis's alt) throughout the entirely of the day.

[Regfan]

also, "last i had you" was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back on day 1, so you might wanna' check the expiration date on that read, bud

This is EXACTLY my point though; you stating you had me as town, then changing to stating the wagons were led by scum without actually stating that you're reading me as scum reads as you attempting to soft-state/push a FoS on me without actually coming out and saying it. THAT's what I don't like about it.

[Regfan]

Again, THATs not my issue, it's the way you phrased it before. Instead of large-font spamming why not just answer my motherfucking question; if your read changed from having me as town to scum that was pushing mslynches why not outright state that you have me as scum.

Holy fuck just answer the question.

[Regfan]

your walls notwithstanding, your reads have produced exactly NOTHING of value this game and IT HAS SHOWN IN THE FLIPS

This is complete bullshit. I stand by my town-reads on Ika and Zach, I'll eat a hat if they're scum. I don't see a world where either of them are. I still think CES is town, as annoying as it is I still think you're town. I'd just rather make 100% fucking sure on two you since we've got time and I'd rather not mslynch again here.

[Regfan]

You're in-fucking-suffer-able.

a) If you strongly believe in meta which you claim you do - then read through any of my scum/town games, my metas just as obvious as ikas, if not more.
b) Again you can state that I was wrong on Aero and CD, that's fine (Though tbf I'd probably lynch them again in the same situation) but don't even dare bother saying that I've put no effort in and added nothing to the game. I'm p fucking confident in some of my town reads and want to get more confident in the others to PoE this shit. And again; you should remember Wheldan where I was actually wrong so you going "hurr durr led on town = scum" is nonsensical here.

[Regfan]

And seriously it'll take you 10 fucking seconds. So please for the love of god answer the question; if you had a scum-read on me before why not state it?

[Regfan]

Also your whole "You've just led on town, you've done nothing, you've been useless" shit doesn't work when you read someone that's as easy as a book to read incorrectly; There is a reason I spent two town tokens- I'm fucking awful as scum.

Worst part of it is I'm actually growing more confident you're town from your most recent posts but it's not stopping my blood from boiling.

I need to walk away from the computer I think. And FUCK YOU, this was time I was going to carve out to re-reading and ISOing people with a level head.

[Regfan]

What that both of them (Who are two people that can read me very very well) could work out that I was town? SHOCK HORROR!

[Regfan]

Here, take a read of my most recent (I don't think I'm forgetting any) scum games Popcorn Mafia, Survivor Mafia and Mafia In Space (My best scum game ever). If you still think I'm mafia after reading those then you can't even give me an ounce of shit for voting Aero or CD.

[Regfan]

if anen flips scum and tth and i turn out to have been right this whole time, i'm going to give you a mountain of shit

I've never had a town read on him, Psyches never gone above null in my reads list, heck I'm more than likely joining you there (I think Anen+Elk make a lot of sense as a scum-team, which is y'know something I elaborated on in my last proper post but nope I've def not added anything to this game!. I also think Anens case and push on both Ank and BBT read as bad and him fabricating reasons to push people) and was going to devote time to go over him and the others tonight but you've pissed me right off right now and out of the mood for mafia. And you can't give me any shit about "being bad" if you think I'm mafia here, none, nope.

[Regfan]

Finished getting through Anens ISO, his change of read on BBT from Post 1435 where he had him as a fairly strong town read and thought his play fit his town meta to voting him in Post 1637 with the attached reasoning and the sole change of mind stemming from BBTs vote on Ika which he noticed in Post 1626 doesn't add up since BBTs Ika vote is 100x better and more understandable than the Elk one given that BBTs stated a scum-read on Ika throughout the entire game so BBT voting Ika being the reason he's reconsidering Ika and scum-reading BBT seriously doesn't make an ounce of sense. Also think his town read on Elk in Post 1435 despite finding his ISO empty and lack of complete interaction with him very much reads as him attempting to town read a partner which scum would want in this setup.

Also didn't like his whole "I'm an easy lynch" in Post 1454 to suggest people pushing him are mafia and again in Post 1485 ignores the fact that people had a scum-read on his slot before he even replaced in so him using that as reason to suspect Anti reads more as de-crediting.

Initial reaction when reading the whole "Wgeurts reads and reasons" in Post 1527 was the team effort into the game was a town-tell but remember Empire telling me that Wguerts GTKAS stated he prefered scum which nullifies that point. The way he's using his reads to suggest his other reads are right re; wagon analysis there reads as circular reasoning and his "Elk is lynchbait" copying of Anks statement to excuse Ek from his vote placements don't read as genuine (Actually can kind of see an Elk/Ank/Anen team coming from this). The attempt to meta Ika from here to a SK game of him similarly doesn't make sense (SK and mafia are very very different, if anything SK is more similar to town than mafia in that there's no partners).

Yeah okay combined all that with the fact that I think that the quotes in Post 1180 make much more sense coming from scum lying about team comments mean I'm likely voting Anen here. We got time though so I'll carve some more time tomorrow to get to the other three but consider my vote effectively on Anen here.

[Regfan]

I feel like this point isn't as strong given that if elk is scum, his attack on Ank was definitely prepared ahead of time. I don't think Today's wagon on Anen would've been obvious during the Night.

Eh, I think it was fairly obvious that several of us FoS'ed Anen though; I know Anti/Zach/Myself minimum had mentioned it?

Anyway I'm crashing now. The rest of the ISO's tomorrow.

[Regfan]

Oh I remember what I wanted to ask before I crashed.

theelkspeaks - Lynchbait (Town)

I want this read explained.

[Regfan]

@Zach

- Just got confirmation from Zor; It was 1. WF, 2. Mini Theme, 3. Nightless, 4. Mini Normal, 5. Open so Mina was right.

[Regfan]

I really would've guessed the Open would've been more hotly contested. Guess that was a wasted token.

I only really cared about me getting WF, Empire about getting the nightless (We didn't think either would be that popular given that most people nowadays love roles) and Zar had already volunteered for the large so it was really just down to what Mina wanted and she changed her mind a lot. I think it was something about the Open setup that turned her off it? Didn't really care to get involved in that too much but I can ask her if you're curious.

PEdit: Huh? I literally got confirmation from Zoraster that we had open #5 and that we didn't use any tokens for selection.

[Regfan]

I can literally guarantee you that we used none on game selection and that we had the Open #5.

[Regfan]

Think about it for half a second; why the fuck would our team use tokens on game selection? Empire and I are locks get our choice (No one was EVER going to use tokens to get into these two games), Zar was forced into the large by virtue of no one wanting a playerlist that big and Mina was changing her mind about which she preferred between the others every day ergo not worth using a token to decide on.

[Regfan]

I mean the problem isn't the argument, it's that there is literally no logical explanation for how your team ends up with the open vs ours given what you claimed your game selection was.

I don't have an answer for you. All I know is what our team selected and that we used no tokens on it, that's an outright fact.

And you've also got no reason to lie here.

[Regfan]

I don't have an answer for you Zach, I've PM'ed Zor and I'll see what he says but we 100% used 0 tokens on setup and Open as #5.

[Regfan]

That kind of makes sense? If the Normal was your #1 and WF and Nightless required filling you'd have got it regardless of your #2/#3/#4 type choices whereas Nightless/WF were already our #1/#3 choice.

[Regfan]

Ok.

Found the order in the team topic.

1. 13p Normal
2. 9p Open
3. White Flag
4. 13p Theme
5. 12p Nightless

Yeah, so you would have got your #1 choice and WF/Nightless would have require numbers due to their unpopularity so you end up with #1/#3/#5.

We also got #1/#3/#5.

Seems fairly even?

[Regfan]

Fine, I should be asleep some time ago anyway.

I'd appreciate if people could actually comment on my catch up / Anen-Elk reads in the meantime.

[Regfan]

Only just skimmed today and need to do plenty more interaction analysis reading but that'll have to wait till tomorrow, doing mothers day early over here.

The Ika votes are awful, if anything the manner that he hammered yesterday is a town-tell; scum have no reason to hammer a partner while subsequently calling them town and wouldn't do it after their partner just posts walls of info that hadn't been responded to yet.

I'm very very likely voting Elk here, I think Anen-Elk interactions (Anens town-read on Elk and the reasoning behind it, Elks scum read on Psyche that somehow vanished despite it being super strong and his town read on Anen that was somehow created out of nothing) fit as partners super well. Was and still kind of am thinking Ank is probably the third out of the lot (Anti/Ika are ObvTown, like ObvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvTown despite the fact that Antis just going to de-credit and shit over anything I say, "oh look he used the words interaction!"), I don't think BBT fits with Anen/Psyche as a partner and I still think CES is town but his change of vote from Elk to BBT means I can kind of see a CES-Elk scum-team possibly being the case and CES not being able to buss here.

[Regfan]

Fully caught up now and still want to do this;

Vote: Elk

Fairly sure a lynch there ends the game.

@BBT/Ika, p sure you're both town so stop fucking spamming with useless shit.

@Anti - Again if you (Or TTH) still somehow think I'm scum here I urge you to read through my meta, can provide more links if needed because I'm ridiculously easy to meta-read, difference in how I scumhunt/state reads and general activity is massively difference as both alignments.

@BBT - Ikas town, like ridiculously obvious town so you kind of need to stop tunneling there; sure hammering a town-read is bad-play but in this specific case it's not a scum-tell; what does Ika!Scum gain by hammering a partner that just posted a lot of content that may have led others to reevaulate while not actually claiming to have a scum-read on them. The answer is nothing, there's no scum motivation behind his vote.

@Ank - Explain how the Zach kill makes CES more likely town for me please since I'm not following the reasoning there.

tth also said the early-game cooperation from copper on psyche is unlikely to have come from scum copper. she doubts copper would've told elk, as scum, to bus especially in this setup. tth is saying it's not elk and i'm inclined to agree.

Honestly suggest the both of you reread Elks slots read on Psyche/Anen, the way the scum read vanishes points massively towards that being a distance attempt. Not to mention everything about Post 1750 is so fake (And actually kind of make Elk-CES work even more sadly).

I would bank that the only reason Reg is alive is because he has been solidly town reading both you and ika all game long and doesn't reconsider his position at all.

Thought I was a likely night kill N1, was fairly sure I would live through N2/N3 through and I don't think it's because Ikas scum at all because I'd bet a lot on him being town (Albeit I'm willing to at least concede that CES's recent play and Elks interaction with him means I might be wrong on CES) but I think I'm left alive because I was a large pusher of two mslynches and scum felt I'd be de-creditted or ignored due to that. There's also the fact that Elks scum-read on Ika reads as attempting to take advantage of BBT's misread there.

Regfan, I would still vote elk. I'm willing to stake this game on it being elk-BBT; BBT's trying to do exactly what he needs to do to win the game, which is take advantage of the good position he is in right now to get his second mislynch in ika before circling back to me Tomorrow. How else is he going to avoid an elklynch?

Again I don't think BBT-Anen / BBT-Psyche interaction (I'll grab some links when it's not 3am) works as partners ergo I don't think BBTs scum here, the fact that I brought this fact up yesterday yet you switched so quickly from Elk->BBT isn't something I like at all.

[Regfan]

Reg, why are you voting elk is you think it's elk/CES. Especially given your vote puts CES to L-1 and then Ika 'has to hammer.'

I'm p much certain Elks scum, I'm nowhere near that confident on CES being scum and the reasons that I think he might be scum are based on interactions with Elk and Elk being scum making Elk the better lynch, not to mention I still town-read quite a few of CES's earlier play and found his reads/thoughts.

but its fun to goad BBT into stupidity
but on seriosu note: you think its CES/elk?

It spams the thread up with useless stuff which isn't needed at this point. I can see both Elk-Ank and Elk-CES being the case atm.

[Regfan]

regfan why is ank scum?

Your stance on BBT makes you just as bad as him. I hope you realise this.

And Anks "I'm not voting Elk" in Post 256 while calling all three (Elk/Psyche/CD) town in Post 257 looks like attempting to avoid bussing. His mention that Elk was town/lynchbait in Post 1496 with no reasoning attached is something I don't like not to mention the fact that his reads list in Post 1515 and Post 1730 suggest he should be voting Elk right now which is something he's not doing looks like distancing and hoping that someone else gets lynched.

Alright crashing time for me.

[Regfan]

Finally home from work, going to get dinner ect. sorted and get to this in just over an hour.

[Regfan]

@Ika - Admitting that you're being anti-town doesn't make it any better; if you really care about this game or team mafia concept and think BBT is town you need to stop the back and forth with him, it's just going to lead towards a) A clogged up thread, b) You two getting more aggravated with each other (which is dreadful if you're both town which I think is the case) and c) Allows scum to lurk through the day more.

Elks complete lack of reaction towards my vote and point about his Anen/Psyche read not making sense in Post 1861 just strengthens my scum-read there (He's just found something fairly minor/irrelevant to comment on there). Can we just lynch obvscum and end this please.

Anks whole "Elk can only be scum with BBT" in Post 1895 pretty much seals it for me; it's Ank-Elk and Anks trying to find whatsoever excuse possible not to lynch his partner here - he's not mentioned for a second how CES-Elk don't work as a team (I've pointed out how they can). The timing for him suggesting that BBT is a good/better lynch as well reads as very opportunistic and doesn't mesh with the fact that BBT was a very very strong town read of his in Post 1515.

I looked at the BBT-Psyche interaction. I agree there's not a good scum motivation for Psyche's actions, but it's not that uncommon for a mafioso to attack a buddy unduly (and the way he did was consistent with that type of attack). Plus, I don't really see how we're supposed to lynch elk here without Ankamius' help, so voting for Elk doesn't cover more bases.

Come on, Regfan. Look at how BBT pushed ika Today, talking about "crushing his meta" to try and spin the fact that ika's play fits his town play into something in favour of an ikalynch. Look at how he's claiming credit for voting Aneninen. And consider on how little his supertunnely scum read on me is based. Look at the BBT-elk interactions. Antihero's point about Aneninen's liking to bus. Why can't you see that BBT makes a lot of sense as scum here?

I've seen scum attack each other before (To attempt to distance/gain town-cred) but Psyche/BBT interaction doesn't read that way at all, in Post 51/Post 56 Psyches post look more like attempt to rattle/frustrate BBT rather than distance with him and I don't see scum saying "you're not really trying to figure me out" to a partner ie. Post 64, BBT questioning Overouls vote in Post 132 does give me slight pause at first glance but then again that's a question I think I asked/wanted answered at the time which nullfies it. Interaction between Post 166 - Post 181 really doesn't read like partners whatsoever. If needed I can go in more detail but that alone makes me p confident BBTs not scum here.

We don't need Anks vote to lynch Elk (He's not going to buss into autoloss), we can do it with me/you/anti (He's finally starting to see the light from the looks of it) and ika, we can get the numbers so you attempting to brush of that lynch as 'impossible' especially so far away from the deadline is what I don't get. I'll agree the "Crushing his meta" stuff is god-damn-awful but I also think BBT genuinely believes that Ikas allowed to get away with a lot more due to his "meta" and thinks him lynching Ika!Scum will break the meta. I've never seen Anen-scum before so the "meta, liking to bus" doesn't mean much to me; if you provide links I can go read through them but as a mere statement it's nothing and I don't think Elk-BBT work as well as Elk-Ank and possibly Elk-You.

[Regfan]

Regfan being so willing to talk about token discussion so much early game makes me like him a lot less now that I know Empire rolled scum despite three tokens used on him.

I'm not a fan of RVS (Heck I generally either a) Replace into the game when RVS is over, b) Lurk till it's over or c) Start up RQS or setup-spec over it) and think token-discussion is a better starter of a game than people throwing random votes down where a lot of reactions are more play-style determined than alignment-determined. Players/teams discussion about what they used/did here an elsewhere gave me information and the ability to read into things across the whole team-mafia concept which is rather useful; Empire using 3 town token and drawing scum was very very unlikely and doesn't change the impact tokens generally have.

(I'd rather you respond to my prior post though; How have you ruled out all combinations that involve Elk other than Elk-BBT?

[Regfan]

Just got home and am praying that this is over, give me some good news Equinox, I could def use some right now, also the sooner the better please don't make me stay up F5'ing the shit out of this page for hours.

Recent posting rules out CES-Elk and BBT-Elk (Never really thought this was the case anyway, still think Psyche-BBT interactions don't fit as partners) but think Anks vote and then 'do you believe me now?' was a last minute distancing attempt, locking in Ank-Elk (Really would be shocked if Anti or Ika are scum here).

[Regfan]

I'm out at a friends party all of today, will be getting to this tomorrow when I get home from it, likely very hungover.

Would really appreciate no one vote in the meantime (Looking at you Ika) this is lylo and we've got two weeks, there's no reason to rush here and the longer it plays out the easier it will be to narrow down the scum-team since scum are unable to buss in this position.

[Regfan]

Phone posting, will be home in a few hours and will get to this then

[Regfan]

Okay, exhausted as fuck but getting to some of this tonight, the rest tomorrow night. I really need to step back and reanalyse just about everything because this game is depressing at the moment and the absolute only thing I'm confident at this point is that Ika is town. I'll likely get through Anen interaction re-reading and attempting to work out which team of BBT/CES, Ank/CES and BBT/Ank make the most sense too - Without much rereading I don't think CES-BBT works given CES's push on BBT yesterday and their back and forths don't read as a cross-buss attempt but that's something I really need to go back and check on.

Ika, please stop goading people into voting, last thing I want is to get home one day and it's lost because of scum blitzing. I know you want 'stances locked in and to speed this up' but I'm nowhere near ready for votes to be laid down; We have two fucking weeks, we have plenty of time available.

I really don't read much from the Anti-kill, was fairly sure he was dying there - he was the only non-ika person that was universally town-read (And Ikas not universally town-read in that BBT scum-reads him so if it's a case of BBT/Ika both being town then he'd never be killed there).

Really don't like BBTs Post 1947 especially the "I've played a perfect game and been on no mslynches", initial feelings are that it kind of looks like a 'scum caught for the wrong reasons' type of post - also don't like the fact that if he thinks it's CES/Ika he should be reaching out to Ank/Me here which he's not doing at all.

Also not buying Anks teams reads in Post 1989, I think Town!Mollie would know I'm town here just by home different my play here is compared to what I'm like as mafia so her 'he's super scummy here' especially re; my end of day post reads fake.

I'd really like an explanation from Regfan as to why he still thought it was me+elk when I basically tipped the dominoes to an elk lynch.

There were two possibilities post-hammer / at the time of my post a) Elk was town (This was something I highly doubted largely due to the fact that I town-read almost everyone else alive and found Anens interations with him to read as obvpartner + didn't like the fact that he'd vanish whenever not mentioned and pop in to say close to nothing) or b) Elk was scum. In b) CES's hammer means CES 100% couldn't be his partner, BBTs comments post hammer didn't fit as a partner that's already lost the game and Ika was and still is my strongest town-read and I had p strong town read on Antihero which left you as the only real possible partner and I wanted to be able to brag via calling the exact scum-team before the reveal. Plus your vote and then 'look at my vote' type of post in Post 1937 read as you attempting to distance from him and 'rule you out as a pair' which would have been your only hope at the time of making it to end-game together.

REGFAN: when you get in here tell us who you think the scum pair is

Gone into this above but right now? Most likely to least is something like; BBT-Ank, Ank-CES, Gap, BBT-CES.

[Regfan]

Catching up now, this'll probably be a mess of a post, my more detailed thoughts ect. will be in my next post; I'm waiting for Zar/Mina to wake up (I think Zar will be up in an hour or two) so I can discuss my reads with them, really had nothing from them at all lately. If you want a quick summary of where my head is currently at though I'm fairly convinced Anks scum although that's largely irrelevant now given that a) Ikas not going to reconsider his wrong town read there and b) Looks like we're going for the scum inside CES/BBT. I'm leaning much more heavily towards voting BBT than CES right now; BBTs play today, his arguments and his flip of read on Ika and myself looks like him attempting to de-credit me and buddy up to Ika since he knows I was always going to be voting Ank or himself and they're the most likely scum-team right now while subsequently buddy up to Ika given that he's most likely the deciding vote here, the fact that Anks also attempting to backtrack out of his BBT scum-read and instead attempt to push a CES-Me team (ie. Voting CES) looks him wanting to avoid bussing too which makes BBT more likely scum as well. So yeah, want to talk with my team, do some rereading but I'm likely voting BBT here.

So you thought at the time that when pretty much everyone thought that theelkspeaks was fully willing to lynch elk except for BBT and me, I, as elk's scumpartner, would turn on him completely out of the blue when the chances of him

not

being lynched from it was virtually nonexistent?

Again; I think a scum-team of you-elk only chance at winning would be ruling you two out as a team and using that as an excuse to have neither of you lynched, the fact that you voted him after our conversation went; 1) You saying that his only partner could be BBT, 2) Me stating that I think you're most likely partner, 3) You voting him and then your Post 1937 reading like wanting me to eliminate You-Ek as a scum-team (And thus later on be able to claim "don't lynch Elk as BBT would be a better lynch") read as a purposeful and scum motivated tactic. I also don't buy how you'd even attempt to spin your Post 1937 as a "reaction-test" when a) At the time it read like an obvious attempt to distance from Elk and b) Right now looks like it was an attempt to end the day before people reconsidered on BBT.

I'd like to know your opinion of #1961.

My issue with those posts is less a "tonal" one and moreso that his "Ank needs to be questioned" doesn't really fit his confidence in Ika/CES being the scum-team nor does it fit with the fact that he's not questioned you about it properly. CES points it out well when he says that if he really believed an Ika/CES scum-team at daystart his play doesn't fit attempting to convince either of us to reconsider on one or both of them and lynch scum.

2032 - The fact you're even considering CES and myself as a scum team is ridiculous.

Given that my memory of the original white flag is that scum won the game via distancing (Mith/Llamarbale I think?) I didn't want to instantly dismiss the idea that it's possible the two of you could be cross-bussing, that said I'm not reading it to be the case right here and I think Anks scum with you being the most likely partner right now. I'll elaborate on what I'm scum-reading about your recent play in my next post but your reaction and attempt to push the "I've been right all game, no one has listened to me, I've played a perfect game!" doesn't read genuine at all, especially with your recent back-track on your Ika scum-read. And Ank and myself being fairly inactive the last few days is hardly a reason you haven't put forward a case / prodded us on our town-reads on the two of them; if you think they're scum you'd be pushing us to reconsider, not having shitfights and back and forths with Ika.

now rge and ank need to come in and give their imput. oh btw reg, i would like to see your vote too since you seem to be follwoing CES read

I'm getting closer to being ready to vote, want to speak with my team but right now I'm most likely voting BBT. If there's certain things you want me to reread / comment on let me know and I'll get to it after work tomorrow night. Also I know it's not MASSIVELY relevant but you're going to have to explain to me your town read on Ank because a) I'm scum-reading him from his play alone, b) I'm fairly positive you're town and I'm not reading BBT/CES as SvS (If it is then we've won the game by keeping the vote between them anyway) which means Ank would have to be scum and I'm reading BBT as a much more likely partner to him than CES (His recent flip of read on BBT/CES to move towards voting CES by attempting to link CES to me reads like avoiding bussing).

[Regfan]

Why is everyone acting like I have given 0 reason for why I think CES/Ika are scum? I have fucking pushed for a long time and provided ample reasoning. I feel I provided more than enough and not one single fucking person has considered what I said.

You're missing the point. My issue isn't that you "haven't explained your scum reads on either" it's that you're not interacting with me and Ank or pushing us for why we're town reading (one or both) of the two of them, it didn't look like you're even trying to convince us that they were the scum team and given it's lylo and it's absolutely necessary for you to have both of our votes with you which is not what you're doing. Not to mention you haven't once attempted to convince me that my scum-read on Ank is wrong and given that I was most likely to vote him earlier the lack of you doing that makes no sense.

Explain your scum read on me Reg because you've just plucked that from the fucking sky.

I've touched on it, waiting to speak with my team before going into it more (Will likely elaborate in large detail tomorrow after work) but it's essentially a) I find your interactions and your read on Ank / Anks read on you to fit the best as partners here, b) I town read Ika and CES more than your early game play, c) Your reaction towards CES's push on you doesn't read genuine, d) I find your flip of read on Ika and myself very opportunistic and scum motivated, e) I don't think the way you're handling this lylo matches your reads in the game (See above).

[Regfan]

Sorry, had a death in the family and spent last night consoling them.

Will get to this game when I get home from work tonight, know at the moment Zar agrees with Ank-BBT scum team (He pointed out some weird inconsistencies about their reads on each other to me two nights ago) and a BBT vote, hoping Mina pops in between now and then too as I'm getting more and more ready to throw down a vote.

[Regfan]

"This shit" is actually thinking my vote through and making sure my team mates agree with me on bbt being scum given its yknow lylo and this isn't a game I want to misvote in especially with how much shit anti will give me if I do. Jesus Christ, you can wait especially since im super likely to have a vote down in the next 10 hours or even less, just want to hear from Mina first.

[Regfan]

I'll post the stuff zar left me pointing to bbt-ank (lots of it was what I was already seeing anyway but he brouhh up a few solid as fuxj points) when I get to a computer too.

[Regfan]

Okay, finally at a computer and Mina popped on; Mina doesn't have very clear reads in this game (She's saying she's not as invested in this game as I am that I should trust my reads over hers since she's not good at reading people without interacting with them herself) and she thinks everyone is playing fairly closed / non-transparently, she's leery of the fact that Ikas urging people to vote but she is willing to sheep and trust me/everyone else that has him as town and that point out that it's a playstyle tell for him and not an alignment one. She thinks BBT shows occasional flashes of conviction/anger that sound genuine and that CES reaction towards the 1v1 reads genuine too since she doesn't think scum would want to force that. She also thinks Ank had a few team mate posts that read townish and liked his insisting that he's easy to read. So uh, she's being really wishy-washy and not particularly useful, she was coming around to BBT!Scum by the end of our quick convo though, she thought his flip of read on Ika and myself was bad didn't read genuine.

Zar thinks Anks Post 481 was an attempt to pre-emptively clear BBT for late game if Psyche ever got lynched (Which he uses in Post 1730), in Post 1515 he states a really strong town read on BBT, him then progresing to say that Elk can only be scum with BBT in Post 1895 and then voting Elk in Post 1931 doesn't add up and looks like trying to prevent the tide from swinging to BBT. Zar thinks Anks been very waffly / back-tracky with his BBT read lately and thinks the swift change from thinking it's BBT/Me towards CES/Me when BBT was starting to get votes looks is a big point for them both being scum together given it's the WF setup.

I'm ready to vote now, apologies in advance if I'm wrong but here's the main reasons I think BBT is scum in an nutshell is that the way he's gone about this lylo doesn't add up with thinking CES/Ika is the scum-team, his backtrack of his Ika read, his statement of "Question Ank about his vote yesterday" with no follow through and him constantly asking me to post a case on him while ignoring what I've actually already brought up don't look genuine at all and rather look like him realising that I'm voting him and thus working no Ika to be the misvote. I also find Ank-BBT interactions and reads a huge scum-tell here.

Vote; BBT

reg: its irrelevant what i think of ank if we are decidnign in betweetn BBT/CES. unless if you want to pull na ika and vote ank and force out the second 1v1 i find me stating to be pointless when i am reading ank based off meta

It's not entirely irrelevant or pointless, right now a lot of my read on this game is based on interactions - as explained above BBT-Anks reads on each other and the manner they interact and avoid each other is a large part of my confidence in BBT being scum, if you're refusing to acknowledge the fact that Anks scum here then you're instantly going to ignore the majority of why I think BBT is scum. So work with me here, explain the 'meta' that makes you think Ank town - and have you taken a look at the meta I linked earlier, if so why am I not ridiculously obvtown in your eyes?

[Regfan]

CES is right in that BBTs walls and walls of 'analysis/case' on CES is him just attempting to shine every single post in a negative light, his "You can find the biggest reasons by reading my posts" in Post 2134 is even worse. The lack of strong reaction towards my vote yelling for me to unvote or real shock in the fact that Ikas not scum here is a fairly large scum-tell too.

Ank attempting to swing the vote to me when there's two votes on BBT just strengthens the fact that BBT-Ank is the scum-team here, he knows that Ikas more likely to misvote on me than CES and knows that's the only way that scum can push through a mslynch on lylo here; the fact he didn't start attempting to push that until after I voted was because he wanted to have the opportunity to blitz on CES if I misvote - this is a huge huge huge huge point.

Ika, please talk to GIF, he'll explain to you that having people throw votes around in a lylo like this is a terrible idea; he'll also tell you BBTs scum.

[Regfan]

Thanks for the game Equinox.

The main problem I personally had with this game was that town were so fucking good at being obvtown.

This. So much this. So many players in the game (Tammy/Zach/Antihero/Ika ect.) were unlynchable for the most part (Though I still believe if town made the mistake of lynching CES the day before lylo Elk would have voted Ika and we'd have had a much easier win) which made it very hard to get mslynches through.

I by no means played a great game I generally just don't find scum games interesting which shows for those that know me well (Solving the game is far far more fun, next time I'm using Antis strategy and pushing for all 5 tokens to be town) but I'm fairly happy that we won this, was really hard to seem not obvscum enough that I'd get instant lynched but still seem very scummy that people would link me towards CES at the end and it paid off. Lots of town players were on the right track at different points of the game too (Tammy suspected BBT+Me at one point, Anti had Anen and myself, Zach wavered on his read on me/bbt and had Anen, Ank had me ect.) but I don't think they got together quickly enough to discuss those reads before we offed them which let me put forward mslynches like Elk more into the forefront. Also people should ignore Zars suggestion, I'm a really bad D3 policy lynch!