White Flag Mafia [TM2015] (Game Over)

[Oversoul]

Die
VOTE: Zach

[Oversoul]

But is he always dunk?
Zach Oversoul Psyche can be town.

[Oversoul]

Llama, did you spend tokens on this game?

[Oversoul]

Llama, did you spend tokens on this game?

Just one, but it was enough.

That is an odd response

[Oversoul]

You are welcome to self-vote.

Where are Regfan and CES?

That is an odd response

And?

It was purposefully vague. Why were you snark with the original answer?

[Oversoul]

I think Llama is town.
I think TTH is probably town.
Zach is town. I hope. I hope I can do what we did last time.

VOTE: Psyche

[Oversoul]

I think Llama is town.
I think TTH is probably town.
Zach is town. I hope. I hope I can do what we did last time.

VOTE: Psyche

Why is Zach town?

Why are you voting Psyche?

Zach was the type of person to fairly exclusively only like to play town. I'm hoping he is still that type of person!

Wagon!

[Oversoul]

What up

[Oversoul]

The only scumminess I can honestly attribute to Elk is the point that Regfan made on the last page
He seems to not really have a general hold on this game

Tammy says that we should be wary about CES. I'm probably going to let her take the wheel on reading him like last time

BBT I don't understand why you are so bent out of shape on that point about Marble

[Oversoul]

Who has a scum read on BB&T (bank)?

[Oversoul]

Lot's of switching already happening.

[Oversoul]

VOTE: Theelkspeaks

[Oversoul]

*is sad about the replacement*

The replacement occurred after my teammate copper told me to say hi to TTH and that he expects TTH is town and can carry the game.

VOTE: Psyche

Why the Psyche vote?

[Oversoul]

191 - Oversoul, firstly, I would have liked Llamarble to have the first chance of responding to what I said.

Then why didn't you specify that?

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the point I made against Llamarble or the discussion with Psyche that ensued.

The point about Llmarble and the token discussion. At that stage in the game, reads are going to be based off shitty reasoning. You seem incredulous to that fact?

192 - Ugh. I hate this post.

What was the purpose of it?

First level of inquisition: To see who had a scum read on you? Second level of inquisition: to hold people to that reasoning, for future reference.

199 - Oversoul, you're now voting Elk when you just previously stated that you don't see much scumminess from him? Nah.

Yes...
Wagons are a good thing, especially in a game as murky as this.

Does that surprise you?
For the record, Regfan's point is valid. Elk just... doesn't seem to be doing much of... anything.

We've never played together, have we, BB&T?

Oh ye of little research. I'd say the chance I get lynched this game has already dropped below 3%.

Speaking of free lynches, Cheery hasn't really attracted votes even though lynching him is the Right Thing To Do.
Impressive patience from the scumteam? Or maybe Cheery is actually just scum.

Why not Elk?

we switched b/c tth needed to take the wheel in the game i was in

that's all the detail i can go into

That's interesting. I thought something similar when I saw the switch.

Anak; Would like some reasoning or explanation behind your reads list in Post 139 specifically the reads on BTT, Oversoul, Llama and CES.

Quick note is that I posted before anyone else in my team had posted thoughts in the game.

BBT: I liked #52 and his #57 echoed what I thought about Aeronaut's post as well.

Oversoul: He felt town based on his interactions with Llamarble about the tokens; since I have a scumread on Llamarble independent of this, I'm putting more stake in this than I usually would.

Llamarble: He felt scum based on his interactions with Oversoul about the tokens. I didn't like this post either; the questions feel incredibly empty. The way he reacted to the 'scuffle' at the top of page 5 looks wooden.

CES: The way he posted towards you on page 2 pinged me; it's not very strong and I'm getting disagreed with in my PT, so it's virtually null at this point.

This isn't as helpful as I hoped it would be.

I would like the reason for the swap explained. I don't like that it hasn't been.

clarifying stuff w/ zor at the moment. hold onto your britches.

you are talking out your ass when you speculate we swapped so i could take over a SCUM role (lol). ESPECIALLY on a team w/ etl, tth, and sthar8.

your reads are terrible and if you're town you need re-evaluation. badly.

Ok.

Oh hey I just realized this post existed.

*is sad about the replacement*

The replacement occurred after my teammate copper told me to say hi to TTH and that he expects TTH is town and can carry the game.

VOTE: Psyche

fear not for tth will still be driving. i'm just doing the posting.

Urk.

[Oversoul]

Yes...
Wagons are a good thing, especially in a game as murky as this.

Does that surprise you?
For the record, Regfan's point is valid. Elk just... doesn't seem to be doing much of... anything.

We've never played together, have we, BB&T?

[Oversoul]

Regfan is scum if Llama is scum.

I disagree with that immensely. I think Reg is fairly strong town read, no matter how you slice his play.
I also think Reg is the type of person to spend money on tokens to be town, just like Zach.
Although, I wish the preference picking between town/scum was cut and dry as it was last time. Made for an easier game. Would make me feel better about Zach's activity.
BB&T, I admit that my votes in this game have been fairly weak independently, but that is only because I don't really have a strong grasp on the game yet. This is my first game back in probably 10 or so months? I need to get reacquainted with how *I* would even play this game before I can sufficiently analyze someone else's play.

[Oversoul]

This is my first game back in probably 10 or so months? I need to get reacquainted with how *I* would even play this game before I can sufficiently analyze someone else's play.

Can semi-relate to this, been a while since I've played in a proper playerlist and still feel like I'm missing things I should be noticing everywhere or be having stronger town-reads that what I currently do (A lot of mine are quite weak). That said would really like to see content, any content from you because a) The fact that other than the linked post of yours you've avoided me has been something that's bothered me especially considering your team mates and the past TM game and I wanted to talk with my team about and b) My memory of you was that you took strong stances and were quite active which isn't the case here.

I mean I don't think I have been avoiding you or inactive really.
I agreed with your points against Elk and that is largely what convinced me to join that wagon in particular. I can't promise anything substantial until this weekend, been swamped with school. But fair enough. Once I have a chance to reread the game this weekend, I should be able to approach the game from a better frame of mind.

What do you mean from my teammates?
We've been mostly doing our own thing, offering our opinions here and there when we can in our PT.

[Oversoul]

Also would any of Ank, Aero, Oversoul or TTH be likely to use a scum token?

No way in hell would I ever do that. 1) I hate scum, 2) haven't played in a long time so I would probably get caught immediately, 3) no one in hell in a team mafia game would I ever willingly want to be scum. Too much pressure and too many people inspecting your play.

But yeah, I'm back for the weekend.

I am tired as shit, so I'm only going to respond to things specifically mentioned to me right now. I'll reread tomorrow

[Oversoul]

It's worth pointing out (for those among us that care) that a scum token will generally more than double your chance of being scum.

I did the calculations for the scenario 1 scum token on Cheery, 1 town token on Regfan, 'marble and Zach each (I'd guess one of Regfan or Zach got two but that doesn't change much) and I did also take into account that I'm town (which makes it slightly less applicable for the three town token players):
Cheery has a 64% chance of scum to start with; regular people have 25% just like in the tokenless game and the three town tokens have 12%.
I also did the calculations for the scenario that on top of that someone else also used a scum token, in which case you get:
62.5% for the scum tokens; 21% for the tokenless and 9% for the town tokens.

Do you want to keep voting for 'marble, Ankamius, knowing that in both scenarios, Cheery Dog literally started the game more than 5 times as likely to be scum as him?

How much does it change for two tokens?

[Oversoul]

Oversoul, I'm cool waiting till this weekend (I have Sat/Sun off work so I'll likely be doing a mass-reread of the game then myself) and I'd like anything your team mates have said about this game, really anything at all will suffice.

I think this was the only thing that was addressed to me since I last posted

Uh... Not entirely sure how much I am allowed to say. Zoraster seems to be super prickly about things this year.

We had game discussion, token discussion, I called Tammy mollie on accident (I think Tammy was upset I did this ), talk about scumspects in the 8:4 game (lol, not in it. we have no lives ), talk about scumspects in the other team games, then Tammy pipes in for white flag on Tuesday.

Speculates that if anyone had the cahones to put tokens on scum in this game, it would be CES. Mentions something similar to Regfan about Elk's odd balancing act vis-a-vis me talking about tokens and Regfan talking about tokens. Says that Marble most likely town. Thinks that TTH is leaning town, as is Zach.

Tammy thinks that Marble most likely would not put tokens into the game for scum and that he is a strong town read.

Looking back on this, only Tammy thus far has commented on white flag. I assume that's all you care about Reg? You and her seem to have good rapport if my memory is correct. Anyway, now begins the Tammy uncertainty (waffles!). She thinks Elk might be town now.

Agrees that a wagon on Cheery is probably the safest option as the likelihood of him being scum is just so much higher. Brings up a point that may or may not be statistically imporant though... if multiple people put in tokens to be scum, would they all lessen each other's chances? I don't even know how to answer that question. Zach becomes a stronger town read, as does TTH/Antihero (agree with her on the Antihero bit).

Thinks that BBT is being fake aggressive and does not like his posting.

Then we talk about my other teammates' games, and the vanilla nightless, lol. We actually seem to agree a lot on the town/scum in that game. Shame we didn't play in it.

Tammy brings up Ank and Cheery as having bad votes and then says that Ank is probably scum. Thinks that Ika might be town. Thinks Elk is more townie now than he was originally

Tammy has a question for Llamarble - why do you feel so strongly about BBT town? She thinks that BBT is just as capable of faking this type of aggression as scum. Tammy is worried that Llamarble is being shortsighted/blinded by the aggression/back and forth he is having with BBT. Tammy also hypothesizes that BBT might want to be scum in a game like this and possibly put tokens down for it.

So yeah that was the game discussion

I still don't have a complete hold on this game but i'll be back tomorrow

UNVOTE:

[Oversoul]

But is he always dunk?

Ika is scum with Cheery Dog. Doesn't matter who the third one is. Zach Oversoul Psyche can be town.

One thing I haven't asked yet, but were these reads just for the sake of making them?

Not seeing the Ika scum reads - find his posts dreadful but don't exactly think they're highly alignment indicative.

Agree with this point. Admittedly, I try not to read ika posts.

"Cheery may have used a scum token"

I'll solve this question for you, I did attempt to use a scum token, still rolled town.

Yeah, I actually don't feel like a scum Cheery Dog would say this. It's too ballsy, high risk and low reward. There is very little good in confirming that you spent tokens on scum in a game like this where you cannot confirm yourself as town at some point.

I feel like it's the latter. The people who don't want to talk about it might feel that way because we could reasonably figure it out if we delved into it took much.

Interestingly enough, Tammy had this exact same thought re: people not wanting to talk about tokens.

I think anything gained will only benefit team mafia as a while rather than unsocial games.

What does this mean, Cheery?

why was it purposefully vague?

I don't think I ever responded to this. I thought it was Llamarble being cheeky - at that point he never explicitly said he spent it to be town. Cheekiness is something I look for in people who are comfortable being scum. For a long time, Llamarble had one of the highest win rates as scum, so I just attributed his win rate to his liking scum.

qq means either "cry" or "quit" depending on who's saying it (the latter usually referring to oneself, i.e. "I'm going to qq this argument right now.")

As for my vote, it was mostly me thinking that most of the RVS was pretty standard (null) RVS, but the question oversoul asked seemed like an attempt to start token WIFOM, and I feel like token WIFOM is an antitown thing to start, because a player who spent tokens to be town could still very well have rolled scum (or vice versa) without it being that unlikely.

I agree with this on face value, but getting token usage out is more information for the town. In general I think the statistics are probably going to favor what we expect.

So guys, how does ika have 4 votes already? Like he's kinda not saying much of anything useful, but I don't see anything abysmal in his posts either, it feels more like "pre-game banter" from a player who doesn't have reads yet.

I'm keeping a moderately suspicious eye on this wagon.

^ There's another one.

Yeah, I didn't like this post from Elk either. I've seen scum do this. Try to play mediator, ask questions about certain things so 1) they know not to do those things, and 2) can later talk about those things as basis for a certain action (joining the wagon).

But is he always dunk?

Ika is scum with Cheery Dog. Doesn't matter who the third one is. Zach Oversoul Psyche can be town.

This seems like good reads for now.

VOTE: ika

This seems inattentive. How come a list including you-scum is good?

"Cheery may have used a scum token"

I'll solve this question for you, I did attempt to use a scum token, still rolled town.

What do you think you'd have said regarding this had you rolled scum?

I like this post a lot. Although I will say I think the point about the list isn't as strong as Llamarble thinks it is.

gasp

The exchange between you and BBT at the top of page 2 (from about Post 32 to Post 41) was all kinds of awkward on your end. Screaming about being left out and then asking for reasons on ika doesn't quite gel. The comment implying that ika is lynchbait in Post 38 doesn't

quite

fit the context given that nobody is seriously talking about lynching ika. The attack on BBT is subpar even given the relatively low standards of the early game.

in our exchange
you seemed guarded
and not really interested in figuring me out

Funny, that's exactly what I think about you.

I have a light scum read on ika from general game dynamics.
I also have a light scum read on elk, mostly for blanket criticizing the ika wagon but not calling out anyone in particular.

I think this is the towniest post thus far into the game.
Looking forward to when TTH and Antihero switch, I think Antihero's emotional appeal rings true. I know I would not want to willingly switch into a role that is scum. Then again, that is just me.

67 - I just know you're gonna elaborate on this, Zach.

That sounds like a lot of hard work.

I've never thought of Zach as a sassy player, but this is just the first of many where he is acting sassy.

83 - Ika, if you think scum is voting you, you should probably do something about that.

like what? i dont want to ruin slayers gambit (cus come on white flag is like the best place to try shit like that)

Uh, this seems objectively false. And if you are doing Slayer's Gambit, please stop.

Psyche's post thus 105 far remind me of my own internal dialogue about how games go. I can't tell if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

This play may have made me overly suspicious of fast wagons, so I think that oversoul's attempt to start token WIFOM is worse (since knowledge of my own biases against early wagons makes me hesitant to dive too hard into that wagon, at least for now).

I don't really follow this. Elk, did you mean once a fast wagon was complete (7 votes) that it would have one scum on it, or at the time of you saying fast wagons are bad (4 votes) it had one scum on it?

i don't really understand what you mean by that llama

Town usually go depth-first and put some time into analyzing one player, then another. Scum focus on understanding the game as a whole so they can make sure the day doesn't head down a path that will hurt them.

I dunno about that. I've seen scum purposefully tunnel vision a player so they *don't* have to give good reasons for other players.

Here's where I'm at right now.

Town:
BlueBloodedToffee
Oversoul

Weak Town:
TellTaleHeart
ZachRulez

Weak Scum:
Cogito Ergo Sum
theelkspeaks

Scum:
Llamarble
Psyche

Everyone not listed hasn't done anything that caught my attention yet.

VOTE: Psyche

Never even knew this post existed. How is Regfan not on this list at all? How am I a strong town read?

Scum:
Llamarble

Many have died for such folly.

Town reading/scum reading people based on potential token use is an avenue I would expect scum to take. It's quite easy for scum to absolve themselves of any responsibility on mislynches and an easy way to provide town reads/solidly defend their buddies, again, without coming under much fire because 'token use'.

Just to clarify, let's say you're scum with Regfan. Now, should Regfan come under pressure and start looking like he is likely to be the lynch, you can outright defend him as hard as you want without looking scummy because 'tokens'. Even if he flipped scum; 'tokens'. I don't like this being an available defense for scum to use.

Meh, this is a fair point. I favor probability style stuff so the game is just intrinsically less difficult for me to think about. I don't base my reads solely on the token thing, but if someone in my mind could really either be scum or town, probably going to put them over the edge to be town if they spent tokens to be town. I just wish it was like last time.

You think quoting the whole post changes anything?

Jesus Christ.

I'm going to make this easier for you.

Regfan - He hasn't really done anything yet but 2 town tokens :doubles: his chance of being town.

You see this read? It states Regfan '

hasn't really done anything

' but

two town tokens

make him

more likely to be town

.

Now, show me the

scum hunting

,

not token speculation

,

scum hunting

that lends itself to this read on Regfan.

This post reads really town to me on my second read through of the game. This is the type of frustration I think I would feel at this point talking to another player who doesn't see what I am seeing.
Reminds me of playing with Titus. :shudder:

Open challenge to everyone: Justify a town read on Psyche.

You cannot use "he posts a lot" or any variation thereof.

Go.

I don't know if this has been said already, but Antihero if you can, could you follow up with TTH about this?

I wasn't really paying attention to the TTH slot before, but I am now.

Why...?

Mostly because TTH is my strongest townread and while struggling to find scum so far, I can back the scumread of my strongest townread with a vote.

This seems too passive for me, but I can almost imagine a child saying it for the sheer innocence of it.

*it's important that the
If I make any textual errors from here on, you can make fun of me; I am proud of how few mistakes I make while writing and I don't want my skill to atrophy.

Umm?

I can make Cheeryscum work in my mind more easily than most others at this point.
Aeronaut scum also makes a lot of sense. Ankamius can be #3 for now.

None of those three people have interacted with either AH or his predecessor; AH if you can get one, I'd appreciate a dump of whatever thoughts TTH had regarding those 3 players before he left.
AH slot :could: be scum but I have no actual problems with them so far. Same goes for CES.

The way this post is composed makes it sound like you have specific people being replaced by other your other suspicions. Is that true?

Certainly I don't mind the three of them posting in a row after some worried discussion in their QT.

Do you enjoy wearing tinfoil?

Starting to get giddy feelings about Cheery + Ank + Aero scumteam. RAWR! Certainly I don't mind the three of them posting in a row after some worried discussion in their QT.
If the plan is to attempt a lynch on me before I cause too much damage, I almost want to link some of my past games to show you where that leads, but I'll settle for laughing evilly to myself.
I really don't think you'll even get a chance to start though - I'm expecting a Regfan post declaring me irreversibly confirmed town anytime now.

Hey Aero why don't you tell me about how Elk manufactured this:

*is sad about the replacement*

The replacement occurred after my teammate copper told me to say hi to TTH and that he expects TTH is town and can carry the game.

Regfan you're allowed to answer this as well if you still believe in Elkscum.

Ank, at this point I literally have some manner of townread on everyone except you three. Finding my play so far this game scummy is ridiculous, and the way you refer to your teammates is exactly the way I used my teammates in previous team mafia (as I described earlier in this thread).

If you want to be evil/show your powers, you would let it happen. You seem to almost want it to happen with these goading attempts.
The way he referred to teammates is not. He said that his teammates had not read the game at all. That is different from Ank setting himself up to either sheep his own team or seem "confused".

1Q

. Why were you interested in finding out who had a scum-read on me?

2Q

. A wagon on someone you don't find particularly scummy...that smells opportunistic to me.

3Q

. No, we've never played together.

1Q - It is part of how I play. Consistency is important to me.
2Q - I admit up to very recently, I haven't been a diligent reader. I mostly wanted to provide momentum to leading wagons to see how the game progressed.
3Q - This explains a lot. You're in for a (frustrating) treat.

Now that I think about it, I don't think anyone has really "cracked" my playstyle even though I am very upfront about how I play. :shrug:

Planning on talking with Empire about him and Oversoul when he gets up.

Did anything result from this? Why Empire specifically?

My memory of you was that you took strong stances and were quite active which isn't the case here.

What game(s) were did you have in mind when you made this post?

No I can't explain why I consider that a scum tell, it's probably just worthless crap about how I think the game should be played.
UNVOTE:

Hmm... Not how I was expecting that post to end.

I agreed with it...I thought TTH was fairly obvious town. It's an even stronger read now that Anti has replaced into that slot.

Why do you think Antihero made that slot a stronger town read?

Zach I like to think we've wrapped up the token discussion on an agree-to-disagree note. Going further doesn't seem productive.

BBT: Cool; I don't really disagree about the Elk wagon though Aeronaut is my initial pick for the scum on it.
I'm not so sure about TTH:

The "game dynamic" element of the Ika weak scum read was something I didn't really like though which Empire also picked up on.

Nacho mentioned this as well (though it was more general - TTH's scumread on ika bugged him).
I would say TTH / AH being scum is plausible; will reread soon.

To both Llamarble and Regfan, why did that comment seem weak to you (and your teammates)?

Specifically, the BBT/llama argument feels like 2 town players with contrasting opinions but both legitimately trying to get to the bottom of what the best way to lynch scum in this game is.

I hate posts like this. Saying two people arguing are specific alignments is what newb scum do in my opinion.

Also pretty sure he's town here so really nothing gained from talking with him over it for now.

Can you explain this more in depth?

I actually feel like there's probably one scum within the Zach, BBT thing. That whole fight feels forced to me.

Never mind the newb scum comment (see my reference to Elk's post), but it looks like Aeronaut doesn't even care about his own words.

Zach's recent play is the Zach that I want to see. Was having serious doubts about his alignment given his attitude earlier in the game.

Uh yea, I actually don't know what the fuck I was talking about; if it were a fabricated fight, then the suspicion would fall under SvS.

I think it's because I have a history of trying to guess the scumteam and being very, very wrong. However, that whole interaction is something to keep in mind for later.

Really don't like the self depreciation here. Seems like he saw a way out of a potentially troubling position and took it.

Honestly, what I do Day 1 is usually ask questions and try to inquire about different things, because until we see a flip, it's all speculative. Especially with daytalk, it's pretty probable that scum are voting for eachother/D1 bussing.

I'm home pretty much all day today, so I'll be taking a closer look at what's going on.

Bussing is so White Flag Team Mafia 2011.

At the bottom of this post.

CES do you think there is a way to trap everyone into their token usage given the refund aspect of the side selection stuff?

Man that reread took a long ass time.

So yeah, general take away from my reread

Reads

Town

: Regfan, Llamarble, TellTaleHeart (Antihero), Zach

Null-town

: CES, Psyche, Cheery

Null-scum

: Ika, Elk

Scum

: Aeronaut, BB&T, Ank

VOTE: Aeronaut

Aeronaut is lurking and trying to coast, in my opinion. I don't think he truly believes in his point/vote against Elk and when he made the Zach/BB&T point he didn't even try to parse WHO the one scum in two players would be. When he was called out for his post, he quickly took the easy way out to try and appease those questioning him. The fact that he said 1 scum in those two plays into my theory that Aeronaut is scum WITH BB&T.

BB&T is mainly a pet theory that I think has been fairly supported in this game. I think he is being coached by ABR. I haven't had the time to read BB&T's meta (would appreciate if the team Cabd/Empire is on could help investigate), but when I think of hyper-aggressive on a single point I think of ABR. By being this aggressive and sticking to a theoretical reason to disagree with everyone, BB&T can LOOK active without actually scumhunting people for their play.

In the same way that he is accusing others for not using play to scumhunt, he is doing the same by going after others for their theory of play (specifically Llamarble). When push comes to shove, I would not be surprised if BB&T deadline voted the top wagon.

Ank is like Aeronaut, he is coasting in my opinion. I'm giving him slight benefit of the doubt for not having time, but the one post he made about me and Llamarble just felt off. From a player as established as Ank, I was expecting much more than the cursory comments he gave for those reads.

[Oversoul]

437 - Lot of words, looks good on surface but not a whole lot of useful information in it when you read it closely. Apologies for the wall, tried to break it up as much as I could.

Couple of things;

Good point regarding Ank's reads-list. Look forward to the reply.

1

"

I don't base my reads solely on the token thing, but if someone in my mind could really either be scum or town, probably going to put them over the edge to be town if they spent tokens to be town

" How do you know they're not lying?

2

Anti made the town read on that slot stronger because I don't see Anti replacing

into

a scum slot. Glad to see you read thoroughly during your catch up.

3

Also, from reading your catch-up it feels your scum read on elk should be stronger than null-scum. Feels like you're setting yourself up to join his wagon should it take off again.

4

You were having '

serious doubts

' about Zach's alignment earlier in the game...I don't remember these doubts being expressed anywhere?

5

Ah, look at the set-up to join an Aero wagon after people have expressed disliking of that slot. That's just fantastic timing you have there. A 'convenient' time for a 'catch-up' if I've ever seen one.

6

Now, the only real read you give on me is during my discussion with Psyche regarding Llamarble's reads list in which you say "

This post reads really town to me on my second read through of the game. This is the type of frustration I think I would feel at this point talking to another player who doesn't see what I am seeing.

". When you reply to one of my posts, you seem to reply like you're town-reading me (know I'm town?)

7

So, how does this develop into a BBT scum-read? Not even null-scum, full on scum-read.

8

You say it's based on a 'theory'. You're going to have to do

much

better than this. I initially felt like the point of you bringing your teams reads into the game, especially using Tammy as someone who is scum-reading me, was a method of setting yourself up to attack me without it looking too blatant that it's OMGUS.

9

Hyper-aggressive on a single point is scummy? Firstly, don't act like that's all I have done because it isn't. Secondly, go read some of Thor's games when he is town. That's a pretty poor reason for scum-reading anyone, especially when you readily admit to having no idea how said person plays.

10

"

By being this aggressive and sticking to a theoretical reason to disagree with everyone

" This is a huge misrep and exposes your scum read as pretty weak.

I'm really happy with my vote and people should be voting Oversoul now.

Thanks.

I numbered the points that I will address to, hopefully, keep this page concise.

1 - I don't, but if that player in the past has expressed any type of alignment preference, I am going to analyze how they spent those tokens. For example, I expected people like LLD, Katsuki, Llamarble, and even CES to put tokens down for scum. LLD and Katsuki have outspoken preferences for scum. Before the reroll in Magua's game due to mod error, it would appear that I am correct as the scum team in that game was LLD, Katsuki, and Who (this is all publicly confirmed knowledge except my hypothesis that certain individuals in that game actually spent tokens for those alignments).

Llamarble and CES I expected to put tokens down for scum because they have good scum games and it could be, at least from my point of view, that they know who is going to be in what game and felt that they could take advantage of this playerlist. For the record, in the last two team mafias, Llamarble has been scum in the White Flag game. Still not entirely sure this is not some sort of big ruse but Tammy says that Llamarble does prefer town and that sort of thing and I am willing to trust him on that.

If you want me to tell you that your are logically correct, then sure. It is more foolish to rely on the tokens when none of it can actually be proven. When it comes to the game of mafia, there are certain things that I have just trust. None of the players so far have really given me any sort of indication that I should be distrustful of them.

2 - That is what I thought. I just wanted to make it certain.

3 - There has been a lot of debate in our Private Topic about Elk. I'm giving him a pass now because I see him as an inexperienced player and I remember from when I was new to this I seemed scummy just for the way I presented myself. That isn't saying I personally don't find him scummy, which is why he null scum.

4 - Yes. Zach's entrance into the game was not what I was expecting someone who should be excited about the game. To put my expectations into context, from playing with Zach a fair amount I know that he is like me and immensely prefers to play as town. For this reason that I was expecting him to put tokens for town on this game. Moreover, when I voted him in RVS to see if he would react, knowing my knowledge of his own preferences, he didn't react at all. I didn't like that. I may not have been as vocal about my suspicions, but that doesn't mean I did not have them. As a player, I tend to play cards close to my chest/vest (w.e. that damn saying is).

These two posts are where I gave my contemplation face in regards to Zach. Technically the first one is also about Llamarble's early reads, but that includes zach.

Spoiler: For BB&T

But is he always dunk?
Zach Oversoul Psyche can be town.

191 - Oversoul, firstly, I would have liked Llamarble to have the first chance of responding to what I said.

Then why didn't you specify that?

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the point I made against Llamarble or the discussion with Psyche that ensued.

The point about Llmarble and the token discussion. At that stage in the game, reads are going to be based off shitty reasoning. You seem incredulous to that fact?

192 - Ugh. I hate this post.

What was the purpose of it?

First level of inquisition: To see who had a scum read on you? Second level of inquisition: to hold people to that reasoning, for future reference.

199 - Oversoul, you're now voting Elk when you just previously stated that you don't see much scumminess from him? Nah.

Yes...
Wagons are a good thing, especially in a game as murky as this.

Does that surprise you?
For the record, Regfan's point is valid. Elk just... doesn't seem to be doing much of... anything.

We've never played together, have we, BB&T?

Oh ye of little research. I'd say the chance I get lynched this game has already dropped below 3%.

Speaking of free lynches, Cheery hasn't really attracted votes even though lynching him is the Right Thing To Do.
Impressive patience from the scumteam? Or maybe Cheery is actually just scum.

Why not Elk?

we switched b/c tth needed to take the wheel in the game i was in

that's all the detail i can go into

That's interesting. I thought something similar when I saw the switch.

Anak; Would like some reasoning or explanation behind your reads list in Post 139 specifically the reads on BTT, Oversoul, Llama and CES.

Quick note is that I posted before anyone else in my team had posted thoughts in the game.

BBT: I liked #52 and his #57 echoed what I thought about Aeronaut's post as well.

Oversoul: He felt town based on his interactions with Llamarble about the tokens; since I have a scumread on Llamarble independent of this, I'm putting more stake in this than I usually would.

Llamarble: He felt scum based on his interactions with Oversoul about the tokens. I didn't like this post either; the questions feel incredibly empty. The way he reacted to the 'scuffle' at the top of page 5 looks wooden.

CES: The way he posted towards you on page 2 pinged me; it's not very strong and I'm getting disagreed with in my PT, so it's virtually null at this point.

This isn't as helpful as I hoped it would be.

I would like the reason for the swap explained. I don't like that it hasn't been.

clarifying stuff w/ zor at the moment. hold onto your britches.

you are talking out your ass when you speculate we swapped so i could take over a SCUM role (lol). ESPECIALLY on a team w/ etl, tth, and sthar8.

your reads are terrible and if you're town you need re-evaluation. badly.

Ok.

Oh hey I just realized this post existed.

*is sad about the replacement*

The replacement occurred after my teammate copper told me to say hi to TTH and that he expects TTH is town and can carry the game.

VOTE: Psyche

fear not for tth will still be driving. i'm just doing the posting.

Urk.

5 - And your point?

6 - I never said you were town. I said that specific post reads town to me. I don't view people as poles in that they are either scum or town, black or white. I view it as a spectrum of gray. In that instance, I thought the post was town because of the tone and emotion used. I consider emotion to be one of more difficult aspects of playing that scum try to replicate.

7/8 - I play things close to my chest. This is part of the reason why I said "You are in for a (frustrating) treat". Tammy had been talking to me about how she thought your posts sounded fake and that your reactions were forced. With that in mind I began to think about why that would be the case and why you would play that way and I came up with the (tinfoil) theory that you were being coached by an individual on your team. The only one who I am familiar with is ABR who has the title "Illogical Rampage" for a reason. He plays very aggressively and I could very easily see ABR making those posts that you did. I am sorry this is more guilt by association, but it fits with how you are acting (in the game and potentially with teammates).

9 - Yes, it is scummy. I have outlined why I think it is scummy in my other posts. It is scummy because it allows scum to post in a game and look like they have contributed to the game when in reality they are only making noise to buy themselves time. It is funny that you bring up Thor. I don't generally like Thor's playstyle. Thor loathes my playstyle. I concede that I can't read Thor because I just find what he says to be so god damn nitpicky and not alignment telling in anyway. Thor thinks he can read me but his read is literally always "Oversoul is scummy" or some variation. If Thor is your spirit animal, this is going to be a long fucking game for the both of us.

10 - How is that a misrep? You spent a large portion of your posts debating that particular issue.

[Oversoul]

Also Reg, I guess I forgot to say this earlier but my team spent all of its tokens. Tammy took 2 to be town, I took 2 to be town, and Rhinox took 1 to be town.

[Oversoul]

So you disagree with everything I say then?

[Oversoul]

Ok. Curious why you only focused on Aeronaut and yourself, because I tied you two together?

[Oversoul]

Lying? What am I lying about?

[Oversoul]

Hmm, I should have made that clearer. I was curious why you only focused on yourself and Aeronaut for the scum suspicions in my catchup. Does that mean you agree with my content about Ank? You mentioned something about agreeing with my comment on his read's but I don't know if that means you think he is scum or not. The last you've mentioned of him you sounded uncertain about your own thoughts

[Oversoul]

I dunno where the idea that I would take a scum token came from; I really strongly prefer town - Empire and I hydraed and got scum once and our chats sounded like a support group.
I've had an okay scum winrate but my townplay is what I pride myself on. As scum I enjoy winning and playing the mechanics / finding the path to victory; as town I get all those (with much more puzzle-solving) but posting is something I can't stop doing instead of a brutally unpleasant grind.

Well, you chose to be in TM2012 White Flag as scum. I assumed you were also able to choose which game you wanted in the first TM, where you were also scum in White Flag. I just assumed that you enjoyed playing scum from that.

LOL at the support group thing.

Llama, just look at TTH's iso. Post 81 is a unique post in that the content of her suspicions were from things that were not really mentioned already. That shows original thought. That looks more townie than scum. Scum use rehashed shit all the time because they are only concerned with getting by, not actually scumhunting. She also pointed out the Elk stuff before Reg did.

By the end of her time here, she had begun to narrow her focus on Psyche and I liked her interaction with him because she wasn't trying to needlessly talk about everything, she wasn't trying to engage with everyone, she was pointing out things that she thought was scummy and appropriately acting on those suspicions.

Granted, I don't know who TTH is, or how she plays, but on the face of it I don't think she looks scummy. Are you disagreeing with the level of town that I gave TTH or that I town read her at all?

I do think that there is some fishy shit going on with the switch between her and Antihero, but I'll let that go for now.

367 - Anti is town. TTH was my strongest town-read and I really, really, really don't see Anti replacing into a scum slot. However, his lurking is bothering me so it would be great if he could do something.

it's kinda beyond my control (rl stuff), but it'll pass soon

quick 'n dirty while i'm here:
looks like tth's scumreads were psyche, ika, and ces. psyche read i have no issue with. ika isn't in his usual scum lurkaderp mode so i may have an issue w/ that read. not sure haven't read his posts. ces' iso is snoozeworthy.

additionally, zack making a big deal about the swap is pretty smokescreen-y considering he's not really attempting to grasp our team dynamic or take our meta into consideration and just screaming "OMG THEREZ SWAPZ SCUMZMMMZMMZMZMZORZ" even if you did buy into tth being scum, there wasn't a need for a swap and hammering on that point repeatedly w/o actually trying to prove scum intent is actually kind of scummy.

i think bbt and llama are p townish. it looks like aero is a hot topic so i'll be looking into that too.

I do think this is a poor post as there is no reason Anti has to follow TTH's reads, unless Antihero is planning on being a conduit for TTH to post in this game. The meta comment about Anti switching into a scum role I really have no way to refute. I don't know if Anti likes town or hates scum. The way he said it sounded town. Then again, I am a sucker for emotion. But I will remind that this is

Team

Mafia and certain performances may be for an overall strategic value.

Agree on the ika read. Don't know how people can get that opinion from his posts. They never seem to be particularly alignment indicative to me.

[Oversoul]

I get why CES 128 would annoy him but how does it look scummy?

Also, it isn't like TTH is dead. She is just playing in another game and Anti can always ask her to answer our questions.

[Oversoul]

Oversoul, I don't see ABR taking the time to actively coach anyone.

As in ABR doesn't have the time to do it, or ABR wouldn't want to do it?

[Oversoul]

Chameleon, well that's new.

[Oversoul]

Oversouls Post 437 matches a lot more with what I remember of Town!Oversoul. Feeling far less paranoid about that slot being scum now. Disagree with his "Cheery stating he used a scum token is too ballsy to do as scum" though, think him being honest was the best move as both alignments there.

Oversoul, no indepth discussion with Empire ended up happened re; you, was side-tracked about other games and other reads, still waiting for his input/read on you because it's one he's really not commented much on and Empire specifically because in our team he's the player whose thought process / reads I can understand and agree with the best, p much trying to treat this game as a hydra (Except with posting restrictions). The games I had in mind were last TM and Sedilla although it's more a general impression from following several games of yours in the past as well). Will explain the BBT town-read tomorrow in more detail. Do kind of agree with Zach in that most of your statements of BBT in your catch up don't really mesh with your BBT scum-read at the end but I need to go over this again when I'm not half asleep, also the "ABR is coaching BBT into being aggressive" theory is wrong, have played with BBT a few times now and he's very aggressive re; his stances and theory beliefs, have had several arguments about meta with him from memory.

Why would he even say that he took tokens to be scum? That seems pointless, as either alignment.

Fair. I'm sorry that it gives you that impression but Tammy and I agree that something is odd about BBT's aggression. I can see it being play style differences as people always find me scummy for my playstyle, especially if he likens himself to Thor who I always find at least somewhat scummy.

Looking through BBT's iso, I can't find any mention of his teammates' opinions though. I guess that makes my theory less strong. My theory is too sweet to let it die like that though.

BBT, do any of your teammates have any opinions on this game?

pedit: oh I just saw this, I'll respond later tonight

[Oversoul]

Didn't get a chance to get to this tonight sorry

[Oversoul]

BBT, what is your read on Aero?

[Oversoul]

Also

UNVOTE:

Tammy wants the chance to get caught up with our team's games before anymore of them go into night

[Oversoul]

Are you telling me to wagon Aero

Yarr.

Oversoul, I appreciate Tammy's input but I'm sure I'd also appreciate it on Day 2. Let's not stand still needlessly.

There's many things wrong with this attitude. Lucky for you, I misunderstood Tammy's post

VOTE: Aeronaut

[Oversoul]

Antihero has been prodded.

I don't like this at all. I think this is the type of behavior that Anti scum would do.

[Oversoul]

441 - Response;

3) OK, but you brought forward a few points for elk!Scum, which seemed to suggest he should be stronger than null-scum. What you have said in this post also allows you to revisit your 'scum read' at a later date as you have left it wide open.

4) You 'may not have been

as vocal

', I don't think you were vocal at all. So, you wasn't happy with Zach's play (does this translate into a scum read or not?) but you didn't want to express this opinion. I don't understand why you would play like that.

5) My point is it's scummy.

6) You actually said that post "

reads really town to me

". So

really town

doesn't really translate into a scum read.

7/8) Me and my team had a good laugh about ABR scum-coaching me. It was good fun.

ABR also said he is hyper-aggressive as town and much less so as scum. But self-meta so whatever.

9) What you're essentially doing here is saying that I have been tunneling and this is another misrep. I have not been hyper aggressive over any one point. I think this is pretty evident from a quick glance of my ISO.

10) You accused me of talking about theory with

everyone

. This is most definitely

not

what I have been doing. I'm not denying I haven't spent time talking about the dreaded tokens, because I have, and from reading it appears to have been a waste of time. But I have certainly done much, much more than that.

To accuse me of not contributing is kind of funny given what you have done so far this game.

I'm not sure why people are suddenly town reading Oversoul because he made a wall of quotes. Did anyone actually read what he wrote? So much of it is filled with fluff.

3 - Yes. But as I said, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Sure, when I do that call me out on it then. Have I done that? No. You're seeing ghosts.
4 - It is how I play so that scum can't adjust their play accordingly (if I am right about a person or wrong about a person). Posts addressed to players are not in a vacuum.

Let me explain with an example.

If I am calling Equinox scum for lurking and coasting, regardless of whether or not I am right OR wrong about Equinox's alignment, Zoraster the actual scum will see that I suspect people who lurk and coast. Thus, Zoraster will not lurk or coast so that *I* don't get suspicious of him. That is why I tend to keep things to myself. Moreover, if I call someone out, they know not to do that in the future. Letting people do their thing shows what they are naturally inclined to do for that game. Scum are not naturally inclined to be helpful, post, scumhunt, etc. Townies will do that on their own.

5 - You think it is scummy, yet you also think that the slot is scum. Is it not possible that we both see his actions as scummy? You've said relatively little about Aero in your iso other than passing comments about Aero doing nothing and you don't like Aero. Before asking you point blank about Aero being scum your only true indication about his alignment was an answer to who you thought was scum, which was me and Ank and then "Maybe Aero as well". Yet you think I am scummy for the way *I* "left the door open for a vote on Aero"?

6 - ONE post was really town. Not all of your posts. ONE. When I posted that wall, with that comment, you had 72 posts. ONE post out of SEVENTY-TWO does not make you town.

7/8 - Fair. I've accepted that I might be wrong on that front and I do admit that it has weakened the strength of my read on you, but it is still something that I can see happening. I would expect any team worth its salt in this tournament to coach its weaker members who drew scum (not implying you are a weaker member but I know ABR is a decent player and I've never played with you).

9 - I think that you can characterize a lot of your early game play about acting aggressive over the token discussion. Do you disagree with that specific description? Or was the thing with Regfan just a minor blip?

10 - I concede that comment was heat of the moment and I had my blinders on, but from my perspective a substantial portion of your posts were in some way related to that topic. I am reconsidering my stance on you because normally scum do not go toe-to-toe with me in these wall/quote wars. They often tend to give up or find conciliatory ways out of explanations/having to discuss these things with me.

[Oversoul]

I'm mostly just not in a particular hurry to lynch anyone.

It's probably for this Day to be over.

Vote: Aeronaut

Ika, Psyche, get it done.

Are you telling me to wagon Aero

Yarr.

Oversoul, I appreciate Tammy's input but I'm sure I'd also appreciate it on Day 2. Let's not stand still needlessly.

What changed in the span of 48 hours?

[Oversoul]

Also, for BBT in the morning - what does Titus say ika is town?

[Oversoul]

Reg, just curious why did you only ask CES about my 408?

[Oversoul]

Also, Regfan, Tammy just reminded me but apparently I never gave you her case on why BBT is scummy. I will paraphrase it here now

She says that BBT reminds her of a game you had with Tammy on Westeros with a player named WhiskeyJack. She says that she feels the same way about BBT like she did about WhiskeyJack. More specifically, Tammy does not like BBT's aggression or his reads, thinking that both are fake. She also thinks that BBT looks super artificially townie.

She is in disbelief that BBT actually thinks his own Marble case is good (she thinks it is bad) and that anyone who does not want to talk about tokens is scummy and people who discrediting others who are talking about tokens are also scummy.

Tammy also wants BBT to know that she does know his playstyle as she has played with him on a couple of occasions under alt accounts, with both scumBBT and townBBT.

[Oversoul]

605 - What games has she played with me?

I mean, she pretty much thinks I am scum because she disagrees with my stance on tokens/theory. I'm sorry, that doesn't make me scum. Neither does her perception of me being fake. She hasn't got anything more solid than this?

What does she think my case on Llamarble is?

Do you agree with Tammy, Oversoul?

I don't think she wants to share which games for the sake of alt anonymity.

She has made a couple of critiques on your posts, but they all boil down to the fact that she thinks the way you are approaching this game is not authentic townie.
She thinks your case on Llamarble is bad (too forced for you to legitimately believe your points are good points).
I agree with her overall that your aggression is just hitting a sour note with me. I don't like it. Have you ever heard of the Uncanny Valley? Animators make models of humans and almost accomplish making it look human, but something about the model makes it not human so it exists in this Uncanny Valley of looking human without accomplishing the belief that it could be human. That is where your posts exist, at least to me. You do have posts and positions that I think are pro-town motivated and for that reason I personally think it is a stylistic difference between our playstyles. Tammy thinks it is something more.

I am a little anxious about Reg, CES, and Llamarble wanting to get the game to night as quick as possible. Not for the fact that I think Aero is a bad lynch target, but rather I worry we may be stifling discussion.
I am a fan of crystallizing Aero's reads/interactions before he has the chance to muddy the waters, if Aero is scum.

[Oversoul]

VOTE: CES

Tammy and I agree on something!

[Oversoul]

After the Aeronaut flip, I really have no clue about this game anymore. Tammy and I agree that CES rushing the game into night was weird and did not seem particularly town motivated, especially given Aero's town flip.

[Oversoul]

Regfan, you look townie outside of the efforts to expedite Aero's lynch, in my opinion. Can't really say CES looks to be the same level of town as you in that regard. It might be paranoia but CES's pushes have been weird this game.
For what it is worth, Tammy also disliked you pushing for the lynch that quickly. She said it made her feel skeevy watching you two try to force the lynch through.

Tammy says it isn't meta, but that she knows from experience BBT is capable of this type of play as scum. She says her read is based on the convenience and aggression of his stances/reads, especially given how Llamarble a town player was trying to discuss tokens.

I am most likely going to switch with Tammy, so you'll be able to ask her directly soon enough anyway.

[Oversoul]

Post incoming later today

[Oversoul]

This is very likely my last substantial post in this game. Tammy and I are going to need to switch our games. I want to give my final opinion straight from the horses mouth as I think a certain amount of analysis/reasoning is lost in translation with communicating teammates' concerns. I know I have been doing that to Tammy in this game. I am scared shitless of getting modkilled that I paraphrase most of Tammy's comments so that the team overall will not suffer from a modkill. If there is anyone on our team that is likely to mess up, it is me. I've been on the line far too many times to really want to take a chance in the overall structure of these games.

That brings me to my second point. From what I have read across the other Team Mafia games, I think people, myself included, are placing a little too much emphasis on the importance of winning the game. I think token discussion does unfortunately go towards that. I think there is a general malaise in this game because we are trying to rely on something as so indicative when in reality, it isn't as strong as we hope. I know I have fueled those fires and as much as it irks me to admit that BB&T could possibly be right, I think further discussion on tokens is probably not the wisest option, given the state of this game. People across all the games seem to have forgotten how to have fun and just play the game. Sure there are stakes on the line, but in the end is it all really worth the emotional pain and mental fatigue that it is causing? Probably not. I know from here on out, I am going to be taking these games a lot more leniently and relaxed. Then again, I guess I can personally say that since I've already "won" once and it doesn't really matter to me.

On that note, Tammy is going to come into this game and she is probably going to poke you all where you don't want to be poked. She is going to ask you questions that you probably will not like or do not approve. That's fine. But don't take it out on Tammy. She has very recently submitted her dissertation thesis (she is a professor at a university) and this is perhaps the most stressful time of her entire life. This single piece of work carries a lot of importance for her current life and her future in the field of academia. I'm doing this little PSA because I think Tammy is too modest to talk about how smart she is, but I'm not. I think the dissertation is causing her a great amount of stress and various individuals are only causing her more stress. This applies to so many more people than just Tammy, though. Remember that you are talking to a human being. Sure it is easy to forget in the heat of the moment of the game or on the Internet, but every single person has more going on than they project on this forum.

I don't think she wants to share which games for the sake of alt anonymity.

She has made a couple of critiques on your posts, but they all boil down to the fact that she thinks the way you are approaching this game is not authentic townie.
She thinks your case on Llamarble is bad (too forced for you to legitimately believe your points are good points).
I agree with her overall that your aggression is just hitting a sour note with me. I don't like it. Have you ever heard of the Uncanny Valley? Animators make models of humans and almost accomplish making it look human, but something about the model makes it not human so it exists in this Uncanny Valley of looking human without accomplishing the belief that it could be human. That is where your posts exist, at least to me. You do have posts and positions that I think are pro-town motivated and for that reason I personally think it is a stylistic difference between our playstyles. Tammy thinks it is something more.

Haha, no. If she is going to accuse me of being scum and base it on meta then she needs to show me where she has got this information from otherwise it's impossible for me to defend myself against it. I'm also going to bet her 'meta read' on me isn't very deep and I look forward to tearing it apart.

This feels like Tammy is attacking me in place of you to avoid any chance of your attack being attributed to OMGUS. The timing of it is somewhat convenient.

What does she think my case on Llmarble is? (2nd time)

I answered this before, but she thought your case on Llamarble was shitty. I think it says something when perhaps the person you've spent the most time analyzing and suspecting as scum was the scum's first nightkill. But that is neither here nor there.

I bring up this post again because you are about to get what you want. You can ask all these questions to Tammy because Tammy and I are switching our games.

We are more than a week into this game now. You shouldn't need another day to just now have actual reads.

I felt this post was a little strict, given Aero's posts about having to deal with a real life emergency and what not.
I don't know what it is, but Zach still hasn't hit me with the obvtown play.

unvote

hehehe

Psyche continues to be as useless as he is in Mafia Discussion.
Promises a lot and posts a lot, but nothing ever

really seems

to get done...

I'm still not getting any wrath of ika? What's the point in me bring on his wagon then.

Don't really understand the point you are trying to make here, Cheery.
Can you only read Ika when he responds under the pressure of being near lynch?

wondering whether the inherent delay for Aero to return made him a good wagon choice for scum because the time it took for Aero to respond to it would dispel pressure from ika/Psyche.

I actually think this is a fairly high level of analysis. Shame copper was shortsighted.
Don't know how I feel about this post as a whole. Expresses concern over the wagon while simultaneously allowing elk to advocate for the lynch. Fencesitting 101? I dunno. Hard to tell in a vacuum.

I'm more inclined to lynch off wagon. Especially considering the kill. I'm just feeling with where the wagon stalled at scum were likely sitting back off the wagon knowing what the flip was going to be, and it's also a happy bonus that I find the people off the wagon generally more suspicious than those on.

What do you think about the wagon itself? Do you think my premise is sound?

Not entirely sure I think your premise is sound. I believe they killed Llamarble because he was obviously town. There might be tertiary reasons that make killing Llamarble an even better option, like wagon composition.

I think the wagon has a solid town bloc voting it between Llamarble, Regfan, myself, and to a lesser extent you but I do have some reservations about you.
That said, I doubt that *entire* wagon was pro-town. If it was, sad day on mafiascum considering the specific people voting that wagon. This is partially why I think CES might be scum. His vote was the momentum changer that all but sealed the deal. He had been letting his vote rot on Cheery since page 2. Sure he was advocating for Cheery's lynch but it was never a substantial amount of discussion except for early in the game. On top of that, a large basis of his wanting Cheery dead seems to be the token thing, but he calculated it to be almost 50/50 that Cheery would get scum. That isn't exactly a resounding argument. I still believe that Cheery is likely town for his forthright attitude when discussing how he spent his token.

CD is still very very likely mafia and as much as it pains me to admit it I probably should have buried my ego and sheeped there D1.

What is it about CD that makes you think he is safer to lynch? I feel like this is a repeat of CES last time this game happened. *sigh* At least Tammy will be the one who can deal directly with him.

I find it odd that you include 608 as CES being a town post. Why did you use those posts specifically? All of them are fairly low impact. Maybe I haven't played enough games with CES to truly understand how he plays.

I'm actually kind of feeling the opposite about CES doing that after he announced he wasn't looking.

It's not like any of the rest of us actually did stuff there.

Fair.

I might be treating this as a holier than thou.

CES wasn't even the primary person rushing the lynch. Ika was. His timing for his 'activity' was scummy as fuck and yet nobody bats an eyelid because 'lol, it's ika.'

In fact, ika, Psyche and Ank were all pretty scummy towards the end of D1.

I agree with you about Psyche. His posts read to me as "I'm doing nothing and I am happy about it!"
ika I'm just going to defer to you and others who have the willpower to

read

wade through his posts.
Ank I disagree. I thought his posts toward the end of the day showed an earnest attempt at scumhunting.

You're not even voting for him.

i know i want to hammer him. would you vote him if i voted first?

Do you actually win games playing like this?

705-708 is lol.

VOTE: ika

This recent BBT vs. ika is definitely not TvT. At least one of those two is scum, and I already had a townread on BBT, so ika it is.

ika's insistence on semantic troubles with the claims being made against him seems kinda like a non-town way to respond to a push. Focusing on the wording instead of the content feels like just trying to discredit it.

On the other hand, BBT's consecutive single word posts feel a little off also, not sure if that's town frustration or a scum player trying to be very insistent.

Uh...
So out of the three possibilities, this interaction is definitely TvT as opposed to SvT or even SvS? The thing that seems like a "definite" in this interaction is SvS.

What is your read on BB&T and why do you think those posts are "off"?

Oversoul, I would've liked Day 1 to have ended earlier, so maybe try voting scum instead?

What is this comment supposed to imply? It looks like you jammed two different concepts + sentences together in a nonsensical fashion that does not follow at all.

so GIF and I are considering switching games.

who think yay and who thinks nay (outside of BBT who has yet to admit his contridiction or justifying his smatics)

I think you should stay in this game.
Though this is mostly out of selfishness as I am about to switch with Tammy and I think can physically bring myself to read GiF's posts.

Singer got around to reading BBT, I'll try and paraphrase her thoughts but she likes his stance on token usage (I don't) and finds it mirrors her thought process about them as well as find the later part of his ISO to have a large difference in effort here v the newbie she played with him where he was scum. She thinks his posts here aren't as stubbornly void of content as they were over there and finds Post 483 and Post 485 town especially him questioning Ank about the town read on himself as she thinks he'd happily just accept is as scum.

I am actually coming around to BB&T town, too. Though I think you have your work cut out for you if you are going to convince Tammy.

Oversoul please don't forget to respond to the bottom of Post 677 how are you differentiating CES and my push for the day to end quickly? And I want Tammys meta on BBT because that's now two of us that think his play fits his town meta more than his scum meta so her stance on him doesn't add up for me at all.

I feel like I have done Tammy and her opinion on BB&T a disservice with my paraphrase attempts. She will be in the game soon enough to explain her opinion, unfiltered, so I just ask that you save this question for her.

last time i checked in w/ tth on this was before the weekend. since tth has been keeping up w/ the game more than me, i'm hashing some things out w/ her this morning.

zack, if you say something snide about coaching, i'm autovoting you. preemptively, i'm telling you right now to can it.

Did you guys come to any conclusions from your talk this morning?

[Oversoul]

I don't get what you're saying in the first sentence, CES was town last TM so you may need to rephrase that (If what you're asking what it is about CD that makes me fairly comfortable to vote there it's a) I found his stance around Llama to read very fake particularly his vote in Post 251, b) The Llama death when he was likely to come out all guns blazing at CD today over me who had a weaker read there comparatively, c) The fact that I town read majority of the playerlist making him likely scum via PoE alone strengthened via the token usage enhancing the odds of him drawing scum) and those posts read the most genuine from CES - think my best chance of reading him is tonally since a lot of his actual reads and stances are things I can see him fake.

It was two separate thoughts. I just smushed them together. It should have been "What is it about CD you find scummy?" new paragraph "Ugh I feel like I am reading CES wrong again like last time". I agree with you about the tonal thing. I found his two most recent posts to be the sort of stuff a townie would post. Since I am on my way out, I'll defer to you on that. Including that into my reads

Town to scum reads: Regfan, Zachrulez, Antihero, BBT, CES, ika, elk, Psyche, Ank, Cheery.

I honestly could vote any of the final 3, but Cheery is most likely given support behind his wagon and the statistics (which i seem to find myself buying less and less each day)
I'll let Tammy place the vote.
Elk I am having a hard time discerning. I think he is just inexperienced and doesn't know how awkward he sounds when he posts stuff. But then again, I don't get the impression that he is actively scumhunting. It is really a toss up.
Ank is a little sketchy for me because he only started to produce work once pressured and singled out as likely scum. Psyche I think could be the token coasting scum.

I enjoyed playing with you too, Reg. I may play again over the summer when I (supposedly) have more time.
Hope you all will enjoy playing with Tammy.

[Oversoul]

I really only feel super confident in my top 3 town reads. Everyone else has done some townie things but they also have all done things I absolutely hate and would attribute to scum motivation.

[Oversoul]

Tbone, you can stop with the woe is me seeing as how people undermining your win is literally what happened last time to the winners.

Everyone is gonna have words about it, so just move on and let them have their sour grapes.

[Oversoul]

Thanks for the game Equinox.

The main problem I personally had with this game was that town were so fucking good at being obvtown.

This. So much this. So many players in the game (Tammy/Zach/Antihero/Ika ect.) were unlynchable for the most part (Though I still believe if town made the mistake of lynching CES the day before lylo Elk would have voted Ika and we'd have had a much easier win) which made it very hard to get mslynches through.

I by no means played a great game I generally just don't find scum games interesting which shows for those that know me well (Solving the game is far far more fun, next time I'm using Antis strategy and pushing for all 5 tokens to be town) but I'm fairly happy that we won this, was really hard to seem not obvscum enough that I'd get instant lynched but still seem very scummy that people would link me towards CES at the end and it paid off. Lots of town players were on the right track at different points of the game too (Tammy suspected BBT+Me at one point, Anti had Anen and myself, Zach wavered on his read on me/bbt and had Anen, Ank had me ect.) but I don't think they got together quickly enough to discuss those reads before we offed them which let me put forward mslynches like Elk more into the forefront. Also people should ignore Zars suggestion, I'm a really bad D3 policy lynch!

Honestly, I think I would have put tokens toward being scum in White Flag if I had not just come off hiatus.
Still really disliked that Cheery mislynch. I felt pressured into scum reading him because of MATH.

[Oversoul]

I mean sure, but that just legitimizes people disliking you guys for winning. So, I guess, McDonald's? Have it your way.

[Oversoul]

how does that legitimize people disliking us for winning if it's perfectly okay for people to do the same thing converse

Not their complaints of your win, their complaints against you guys.
Giving people more reason to dislike you, the players.
Just move on. You were the only team with 4 wins. Take that to the bank and cash it. At least the flack last year was more legitimate because two teams had 4 wins.