White Flag Mafia [TM2015] (Game Over)

[Tammy]

Hi!

Okay first things first

equinox - I'm v/la until Monday, April 20th

I will be able to post but it will probably be sporadic, and I probably won't be able to do anything substantial or that requires a whole lot of thought until then. I'm defending on Thursday and my final manuscript, considering all goes well, is due on Monday. My brain is kinda fried right now.

I need to reorient myself to the game as I haven't really thought about this game a whole lot in over a week.

Couple things:

Regfan - why would you really consider yourself a nightkill target over marble last night?

Any lingering doubts I had about antihero were wiped away when he asked nacho's team to join him on psyche. Yeah fake Dumbbells yada yada, it didn't look like a fabricated wink wink I really know I killed nacho's teammate last night.

I'd like two of my Townreads to stop going at each other. Though it looks like zach now has anti as town, so that's looking up.

I'm planning to take a break from real life work tonight and drink some wine. I'm going to try to at least read through my town reads to make sure I'm not overlooking anything. Of the reads I had, the ones I still feel good about are regfan, antohero and zach. Regfan is probably causing me the most concern of those based on things that might just be tiny and me being silly.

Beyond that I'll probably be posting in fits and bursts until Monday evening.

[Tammy]

Regfan - it took me off guard when you seemed surprised not to have bern killed because I would have bet money on marble being the nightkill last night. That's probably neither here nor there though because the game looks different from the outside than in.

I will talk about my bbt read, but that's something that will have to wait. I want to read back over day one and what's going on in this day phase and when my brain is functioning a bit better than right now. There is something about his interaction yesterday that is giving me slight pause but I want to think. But it was not ever a meta read. I thought his aggression felt fake, didn't like his thing about the tokens and interaction with marble. The only meta point was that I think he can be aggressive as scum. I'm not *that* big of a meta person and especially not with a small sample size. I really only use meta for giving strong reads for people that I think I have an understanding of how they approach the game and get reads, and even then I sometimes get it wrong *coughempireinadoiafupickcough*.

The point I tried to convey to you earlier was my comparison to the fringe game at westeros. That was the game where we disagreed on whiskeyjack day one (whom I do have a decent meta track of reading), he converted you night one and killed me night two. In that game I couldn't really explain why I was so convinced he was scum because on the surface he looked aggressive and townie, but the way he was reading the game didn't feel right and his reads felt fake. That's how bbt felt to me.

I'll probably point out the scum game I played with him as its a semi public alt anyway and will be public if someone makes the game they promised they would, but in the meantime would you link me to the games you guys have played together as I'd like to see how he's interacted with you. I did have a tiny theory yesterday that the two of you were partnered, but I'm thinking that was probably silly. It's still something I'd like to put to rest in my mind.

I will talk about that read more, just be a little patient with me.

[Tammy]

Okay I still feel good about my antihero town read. I had one reservation on tth in Post 193 but I liked it at the same time. So kinda fence sitting there. What I didn't like about it was the bit about the setup discouraging bussing because yes, while I guess it does, I'm pretty sure people have won white flag by bussing, and there are experienced people on her team that would know that? But it also feels honest in the way she's using the setup to get reads. (I actually misremembered and thought bbt made that post). So yeah, that. I do like that post that antihero made about getting nacho's team to follow him when nacho's team is dead and antis aggression in some regards does feel town. I would be surprised if he replaced into a scum role here, but I also do know that he recently burned his meta to the ground in some game I can't remember right now, so. I think the only problem that I'm having with him is his over abrasive ness. Yes, he's typically abrasive as town, and he sometimes lurks as town because he's busy, but I guess what I've seen is an abrasiveness that is coupled with a sort of self-deprecation such as in serum and steel when he gave his reads and lamented that no one listens to him until it's too late whereas here he's like YOUR READS ARE SHIT RAWR which is throwing me for a loop. I wish he'd stop yelling at other people I think are town and be the anti I'd share a bottle of virtual wine with.

[Tammy]

Okay I started town reading zach in Post 97 and saw no reason to change it. There's not a whole lot to say about it. I'd just be so super surprised if he flipped scum here, I'd congratulate him on great first-level scum play.

[Tammy]

There's a really good chance I fall asleep before I'm done reading Regfan and looking at the games he linked. If I post tomorrow it will be in the midst of a panic fest.

(Sorry Regfan if you are as super town as you say you are because I'm sure you'd expect me to town read you by now without concern. In a vacuum I'd have you as town, but I did follow that one game where you were scum, the one where wake fake claimed on ffery, and I was hard town reading you there, so I know that when you really want to you can do what I expect from you as town. I don't *feel* like this is the case here; I just want to take a minute to be sure. Anyway this explanation is probably silly, but I know it's frustrating to have someone paranoid of you when you feel like you're being obvtown and you think they should be able to read you. I just want to be sure of my town reads because it seems like we're having somewhat of divergent reads here and I want to be able to balance that out without too much freaking out on my part. Regardless super happy to play with yu again in what has been too long a time.)

Completely expect someone too give me a hard time for being too accommodating in that post and here for being self-conscious! Blame my kumbaya moment on wine, lack of sleep, and a whole lot of stress elsewhere.

[Tammy]

I'm also happy to play with CES again as its been awhile, I just think he drew scum

[Tammy]

Oh also zach too

Also everyone.

I'm just going to go to sleep.

[Tammy]

I'm still here! I probably won't actually fall asleep for a while.

I completely forgot that ankamius was playing until tonight when he asked ika what he thought of him. I still am not quite sure if ika respinded to bbt or ank, except wait I should. He's voting bbt so obviously he thinks bbt is svum. I don't know why he thinks Ank is town then. This is going to sound stupid but I think ank is trying to sound too protown. I haven't decided if I think it's a product of being scum or team mafia and wanting to make a good impression.

Psyche is too trolly for me to be able to read.

Cd is a big idk. His admittance to the token thing feels good. His vote and read on marble was bad. I just am not sure.

[Tammy]

Not exactly sure what you're adking me ank.

Regfan - what makes this game any different than any other game where you're in a different time come and have to play catch up?

[Tammy]

*time zone

[Tammy]

UNVOTE:

Get to this later.

[Tammy]

Yay for your promotion.

Also, taxes, fuck. I forgot.

[Tammy]

Ank, I'll reread CES later tonight; if you could bullet point your case on him in the meantime would be very much appreciated.

Regfan - what makes this game any different than any other game where you're in a different time come and have to play catch up?

Got promoted a few months back which has meant that I'm now no longer able to check the site at work/american day time other than in my 5 minute breaks ect. which isn't enough time to catch up or post, means that I only have from when I get home (7PM my time or later generally depending on my shift at the time) when no one else is generally awake or online which stopped me from playing mafia altogether until this TM. Fact that this is TM also means I have to try and keep up with other games as well as interact as much as I can with three team-mates who live on the other side of the world certainly doesn't help.

But this has pretty much always been your play style though. I always think of you as the come in at weird times with catch up thoughts and posing questions but not in real time interacting with people.

Why do you think you'd be less obvtown due to it (and didn't you think you were?)

Sorry if that sounds disjointed, I'm 12.5 hours away from my defense at this point and am going to pass out.

Ank - I will look back at what you asked me at some point. CES is still a suspect; I just didn't want him hammered before I could catch up with the game. Okay sleeping pill kicking in. Wish me luck!

[Tammy]

shut up BBT enough with your lurker shit and destactions from the main objective, scum is scum right?

if you agree CES is scum as well vote him we can deal with phyce later

If you end up flipping scum in this game, I fucking promise you I will push for your lynch every single game we play.

This post feels town.

Please don't lynch until I have a chance to get caught up. I don't oppose the lynch, don't think I'll change my mind - ha! - but still.

4 hours!!!

[Tammy]

Oh that's not four hours before I'm caught up, it's four hours until my defense.

[Tammy]

I get a page drop, drink you suckers, nener neener neener.

[Tammy]

Antihero what's your read on Tammy?

What's your read on me?

[Tammy]

Just posting to say I'm still here, and I passed!

I've been catching up with the game here and there over the weekend and I'm almost finished reading. I'll need to do some iso's and then will be able to talk about some stuff tomorrow.

[Tammy]

She hasn't really said all that much about this game. She read at least up to page 12 and the only reads she gave was what I assume is a townread on Psyche and a definite scumread on Llamarble.

What did she say about those reads that you had to assume was her reads there?

Oops.

[Tammy]

Ika - I realize we haven't played that many games together, so I'm not overly familiar with your play, but from what I have seen its a bit more thoughtful than what you have been doing. There's a post yiu made that leans me towards you being town. So, if I'm right and you are can you play the more thoughtful type game and the less trolling/getting in arguments that don't go anywhere.

I think you and bt's arguments haven't ended up going anywhere and it just clutters the thread and gives scum a place to hide/concentrate on so they can look busy. I came into the game suspecting bbt, though it's not necessarily as strong as before, and I'm having trouble holding onto that read/figuring it out because I think his responses to you would be genuine frustration regardless of alignment which throws me off.

But if you could be more the mafia on air/unbalanced mafia ika, I think we could get something done here.

[Tammy]

Regfan - you'll probably never get a full reads list from me. But they're the same as when I replaced in. Zach and anti town. You prob town. I want to skim through the ISO of that scum game just to be sure, but you've hit several notes I'd expect from you town that I wouldn't from yiu as scum and want to be sure they weren't present there. just want to feel like I can trust your reads and reasons and have a solid set of town reads to work with. I think ika is probably town. Thought his argument with bbt looked contrived on his end, but I found one of his posts really town, and I'm not sure his scum game looks like this.

Ank - I would appreciate it if mollie looked at ika and gave her thoughts as she's recently seen him as scum. (Though I think him asking if mollie had said something about him looks town).

That's all I have for now.

[Tammy]

All I have for reads right now is in Post 985

We can hydra soonish! I have to keep my games to a minimum right now until my revisions get completed and taken care of.

[Tammy]

Cheery dog can you talk a bit more about your Regfan scum read? Has gamma been the only teammate to give input there?

[Tammy]

I know I said I'd finish up reading some Isos today and give thoughts on more people, but I had a super long day and now have a fever and a terrible sore throat . I'm going to try to read through stuff until I fall asleep, but I imagine that will be really soon.

I'lol have some free time tomorrow though.

[Tammy]

I feel like such crap.

Zach - I think you're picking up a thread that will lead nowhere. Not to wander into your line of questioning, but I doubt CES will be around to answer your question until tomorrow, and I'd hate to see you get stuck with too many briars.

Skimmed through the space game last night, and with hindsight there was something off with regfans tone and I think he was playing up to empire. I'm not noticing the same stuff here, so I'm going to set aside my concern right now. I think it's mostly nothing, and there's a good chance he dies tonight anyway and then this bit of concern will be silly. I had him as pretty town early yesterday, and really only started to be concerned when marble did, so.

Have a weak town read on ankamius that is growing stronger as I type this. I'll look through a scum game or two to be sure as I've not seen him as scum, but I like the listing of his scum games and insistence that it sucks. It feels like he feels like he'd be caught here, and his thought processes and questions don't feel like someone concerned about their scum game. The only way I think he is scum here is if he's being helped a whole bunch by his team, but if you look at his teammates that's unlikely. And I think his posts would demonstrate more team involvement if that's the case. I would still like mollies take on ika, so I can feel better about my read there.

[Tammy]

So the town reads I feel really good about are zach and antihero.

I feel relatively good about Regfan, ika, and ankamius

Leftovers, need to read through:

Anenin/psyche - psyche did literally nothing, can't read that, waiting for anenins catch up.

Bbt - had a strong scum read there that I'm wavering on, probably in part because everyone seems to think I'm wrong. Bbt - what made you drop your scum read on my slot?

Ces, cheery dog.

I'd probably be fine with lynching most of the leftovers. I just don't think the whole scum team is in there which has me wondering where I went wrong on a town read.

Antihero - when did Oversoul become a decent town read for you? I thought Regfan was your only town read on the aero wagon.

[Tammy]

I think I'd be fine with a cheery dog lynch. I just caught that part about Regfan unvoting to get on cheery dogs good side. I can't imagine a world where scum!regfan would need to get on cheery dogs good side, and I don't believe he even believes that.

[Tammy]

Bbt - what made you drop your scum read on my slot?

Oversoul's posting before he left.

There is no way scum goes through all that effort before replacing out.

738 in particular.

Okay. I can see that.

[Tammy]

I'm also happy to play with CES again as its been awhile, I just think he drew scum

Divine Sottyvention says he's town.

Why do you think he's scum?

What do you think of the way Cheery wormed onto his wagon?

He feels like he's giving the illusion of trying to figure out the game rather than figuring out the game. I also feel like he's playing up to regfan in a similar but more overt way as he did with empire in yoloville.

I've hated pretty much all of cheery dogs votes and reasons.

[Tammy]

I'm also happy to play with CES again as its been awhile, I just think he drew scum

Divine Sottyvention says he's town.

Why do you think he's scum?

What do you think of the way Cheery wormed onto his wagon?

He feels like he's giving the illusion of trying to figure out the game rather than figuring out the game. I also feel like he's playing up to regfan in a similar but more overt way as he did with empire in yoloville.

I've hated pretty much all of cheery dogs votes and reasons.

I think CES approached White flag pretty similarly to this actually.

I mean I've been looking at him so hard to the point where I'm probably trying to see things that aren't there, and I'm not really seeing a scum case on him.

I read him as town so easily last white flag.

I mean I don't have a solid case on him or anything, but he doesn't feel right.

Oversouls has a gut town lean on cheery dog, which he can't really explain, and I think mostly stems from him admitting he put a token on scum. But, eh, I'd probably be okay with his lynch regardless as he himself has said he's got to go before lylo, I'm not crazy he did say that right?, and if he's town then people can do resets and I'd rather take care of that earlier than later.

I'll try to get some more concrete thoughts out today. I'm still pretty sick, but probably not with strep throat so yay!

Ankamius - will you ask mollie to please take a look at ika?

[Tammy]

Regfan - heading into work so I'm going to respond in bits as I have a 14 hour day, am still sick, and will probably pass out as soon as I get home.

But real quick. If you don't mind, I'd prefer not to point out the one post that I think makes ika really town. I'd like to keep that little tell to myself. I do think his recent anger post to/about mollie reads really town too. There are other posts I think are town from ika in addition to that one though.

[Tammy]

Regfan - eh, we're not disagreeing on ika, so I don't think it really matters or I'd point it out.

I'll talk more about bbt in a bit, but I'm not "town" reading him now. I did like that post I said sounded town because it sounded so off the cuff and frustrated. I still like my early read, but with everyone telling me I'm wrong I just kinda put it on the back burner and am trying to be objective about that. But I also know that one of my biggest problems in mafia is doubting myself when other people seem so convicted, which is why I've been trying to make sure I feel good about my town reads and work from there.

I'm trying to decide what I think about his change of read in my slot. I thought that Oversoul looked pretty town yesterday before we switched anyway, but eh confbias, and it's not like Oversoul replaced out and doesn't have a vested interest in my slot anymore so the effort on replacing out reason isn't the strongest reason to change a read on my slot. I can see it though I guess, but I was a bit concerned that it was becasue it was me replacing in. Bbt has never played with me though so I don't know that he would know what a pain in the ass I am to deal with ^_^ though I'm sure some of his team does, and looking back at context both you and zach had already pointed out that me replacing in made this a town slot, so.

[Tammy]

oh cool, anen's scum

There was a part in his last catchup (before the one just made) where he kinda interrupted his catchup to post some thing that was mentioned in his team thread that I thought sounded town.

[Tammy]

It's in Post 1077 at the end of the first spoiler.

[Tammy]

Tammy, you're probably that there is some intensity missing from my play compared to what I used to have. That's part of why I stopped playing. Looking at this game, I know I'm taking all sorts of shortcuts - I'm not questioning my own reads enough; I'm intentionally not considering Regfanscum until he's survived one Night he shouldn't; I haven't looked at BBT's scum meta because everyone calls him town despite my gut niggles; I'm not thinking enough about Ank's claim of being bad at scum (even as I type this, I don't particularly want to do it); I got carried away with the Aeronautread because everything seemed to line up so nicely.

I used to think my play deteriorated because I had such a long town streak at the end of it but I realize now that the essential problem was probably that I started to rate my own reads highly enough that I didn't feel motivated to scrutinize them. Rekindling the spark is not going to be as easy as just playing another White Flag set-up but at least I'm definitely enjoying the company.

I still think I'm right about Cheery Dog though.

I want to town read this so much, but you are a sneaky bastard. :/

[Tammy]

Tammy you here? if so can you come in

Sorry. I was long asleep by this point. I'm here now for a little bit. I had a drink when I got home and will probably pass out soon though.

[Tammy]

I still like my early read, but with everyone telling me I'm wrong I just kinda put it on the back burner and am trying to be objective about that.

Why do you care so much if other people doubt your read?

I don't *care so much* and I'm not sure I actually implied so much so I'm not sure your interpretation.

Mafia is a team game however, and I do take other people's reads into account with mine. As far as I can remember, I am the absolute only person in this game who thinks you're scum. When every single other person is saying I'm wrong, I'm going to take a step back and consider their thoughts.

I want to know why you were scum reading me.

I'm probably going to bed soon, but I was reading through some stuff and want to look at it a little more sober tomorrow, but I've recently read some stuff that I don't particularly like, so I'll explain it later.

But, can you tell me what your cheery dog read is and why? That'd be swell.

[Tammy]

Trying to keep "tells" to yourself is kind of lame but fine. I'd rather you focus on explaining what about BBT's recent posts read town to you because that's not how I've read his interaction with CD / his recent posts with the exception of his response to me so far which I can at least see partly where he's coming from in.

His recent interactions with you are complete bullshit by the way. I don't think he actually believes any of the crap he's spewing.

I need to go to sleep though!

[Tammy]

Although before I fall asleep I will say that I don't think anyone who actually signed up for team mafia and has some modicum of intelligence actually believes that it's scummy to voluntarily offer up reads from your team when working with your team is part of the whole purpose of team mafia. And considering the fact that anyone part of a team would be, if being a proper team mate is looking at other games would see that sop in these games is to actually share your teammates reads, no one could actually hold that position that it's scummy to volunteer those reads. I could see evaluating how those reads are delivered, and maybe looking at how llamarble stoked about the difference between town and scum delivered reads and working out from there to try to determine alignmeny, but the generic "I'm better because I only deliver when asked" when that's actually the scummier avenue is so wtf I don't believe he can actuslly believe that.

Not to mention that if Regfan has enough meta on bbt that he's able to give a meta read on bbt, there is no way that bbt is so unaware of regfans playstyle that he actually believes that Regfan is using his teammates reads as a means of going back on his reads and using them as a crutch.

I just don't think he actually believes that.

[Tammy]

Except that

Kats

keeps bugging me to repost their questions since they didn't get answered.

@

Tammy

, why did you want to know if I'd received stuff for others than just gamma, and why did you think I might have been?

@

CES

, what is your actual case on me?

I don't understand the question. Are you asking me why I wanted to know if your teammates have been reading the game? If yes, because I wanted to know your teammates thoughts on the game.

[Tammy]

I don't *care so much* and I'm not sure I actually implied so much so I'm not sure your interpretation.

Mafia is a team game however, and I do take other people's reads into account with mine. As far as I can remember, I am the absolute only person in this game who thinks you're scum. When every single other person is saying I'm wrong, I'm going to take a step back and consider their thoughts.

You care enough to not pursue the read. You can consider other people's thoughts, but if you don't believe them, then you should be pursuing your own read.

But, can you tell me what your cheery dog read is and why? That'd be swell.

I'm gonna say CD is town. Because CES is pushing him. And because I'm now unsure on Reg and he is also pushing him.

His recent interactions with you are complete bullshit by the way. I don't think he actually believes any of the crap he's spewing.

Well, you're wrong.

I 100% believe what I'm saying.

You don't see that I'm evaluating Reg's teams reads? I'm gonna go ahead and assume for arguments sake that you only skimmed what I said about Reg.

So, go read what I actually said.

I'm going to let you answer your question for yourself.

The Ika-BBT interaction are really starting to piss me off, fairly sure you're both town here, you're both not helping anyone by taking snide little comments towards the other person and you're making the thread a) More frustrating to read and b) More inflated making it harder for players/teams to keep up with. Quit it out, please or if you're really convinced the other is scum (You'd very likely be wrong) then make a big case post on it rather than having one line back and forths.

I'm beginning to see that nobody is going to listen to me about ika. I'm also sick of Titus screaming at me in PT now so whatever.

UNVOTE:

Here you are backing off ika because no one is listening. Why would you do that?

Beyond that, you've been playing mafia long enough that I shouldn't have to explain fundamental concepts to you. I will, but I feel like this is empty questioning. I'm clearly not town reading you. I'm clearly not done with my read on you; if you missed it you are in the leftovers pile of my reads. You clearly are not an option for today. Stepping back and considering the option I could be wrong and evaluating that is the smart thing to do. I doubt very seriously either of us are dying tonight, so this can wait.

Also, intersting here is that you use titus, your teammate, as a backup reason for removing your vote. Are we to conclude that you are using your teammates as a means to slide on and off of people?

What do you think of cheery dog using gamma as the force of his scum read on Regfan?

What about cheery dog aside from unflipped players pushing him reads town to you and why can't one or both be bussing?

~~~

Tbf I didn't read anenins catch ups that closely. I have a hard time with those type catchups and just noticed that interlude. I'll look back at what you referred to.

As far as it making sense because bbt is considering a you/ces team, I get that and it was one of the things that was floating around in my mind yesterday/today, but what is bugging me is how he came to that concern. It came from a conversation with cheery dog when cheery moved his vote from you to ces. The interaction just looks really oily, but I want to look at the evolution of that thought once again because something is rotten in the state of Denmark!

Also, Im getting ready to run some errands but I'll be back between 4-6 hours from now.

[Tammy]

That part after the ~~~ is supposed to be addressed to Regfan. I just woke up. :/

[Tammy]

Here you are backing off ika because no one is listening. Why would you do that?

Beyond that, you've been playing mafia long enough that I shouldn't have to explain fundamental concepts to you. I will, but I feel like this is empty questioning. I'm clearly not town reading you. I'm clearly not done with my read on you; if you missed it you are in the leftovers pile of my reads. You clearly are not an option for today. Stepping back and considering the option I could be wrong and evaluating that is the smart thing to do. I doubt very seriously either of us are dying tonight, so this can wait.

Also, intersting here is that you use titus, your teammate, as a backup reason for removing your vote. Are we to conclude that you are using your teammates as a means to slide on and off of people?

What do you think of cheery dog using gamma as the force of his scum read on Regfan?

What about cheery dog aside from unflipped players pushing him reads town to you and why can't one or both be bussing?

OK firstly, there are very clear differences here and I'm not sure how you're not able to see them.

I presented my case on ika. I pushed ika. I pushed ika fucking hard and nobody listened. Have you presented your case on me? No. Have you even so much as attempted to push me? No. That is a very clear difference. I tried. You have not.

Secondly, Titus was an afterthought. You can clearly see I first cite the reason of nobody listening to me

followed by

getting fed up of Titus screaming at me. Secondary thought.

Can you point to even a single other time where I have mentioned my teams reads? I don't think you can. So for you to even try and use this to the extent that I have used it against Reg is downright ridiculous.

They could be bussing, but I doubt it. Plus, I'm gonna stick with the simple reasoning that CD's wagon is being formed as a CW to CES. That much is pretty clear.

I have already stated that I'm having trouble reading CD. Like, a lot of his posts don't point me in the direction of either alignment. Therefore, at the moment, I'm using my reads on other players to help gauge my read on CD.

It doesn't matter at all if I made a case or pushed you hard. I've stated my problems with you, and everyone thought I was wrong. Not only that I have only been in this game for a little more than a week. I don't have to state a case and push you to reconsider and evaluate to see if everyone else is right and I'm wrong. I think my goals since I came in here have been clear. I wanted to check out my town reads to make sure I felt good about them so that I could take their reads into account. You are not happening today. You were never on the table for today. Even if I were 100% convinced you were scum, you would still not be happening today. You've played mafia enough to know that your argument is silly.

It doesn't matter if Titus was an afterthought or not. It was there. Your argument is that bringing up your teammates reads without being asked is scummy. You used Titus as part of the reason you chose to unvote Ika. (I don't think it's scummy to bring up your teammates reads. In fact that's all part of team mafia, it's part of the entire point. You're supposed to work together as a team and taking their reads into consideration is a part of the whole process.)

Why didn't you answer what you thought of CD using gamma's read to push on CES?

Why are you using your reads on other players to gauge your read on CD? These other players are of unknown alignment to you. How would your reads on those players, who you could be absolutely wrong on, give you a read on CD?

Okay so for this counter wagon thing, let's take a look:

Vote Count 2.19

Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee, Cheery Dog
Cheery Dog (3) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - ika
ika (1) - theelkspeaks

Not Voting (2) - Aneninen, Tammy

With 11 alive, it will take 6 to lynch.

The deadline is Saturday, April 25, 2015, at 4:30 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2015-04-25 16:30:00).

You think CES is scum, fine.

Regfan had been voting Cheery Dog since early in the day and only unvoted when he thought that one post seemed genuine.

You have zach as town. What do you think of him using Sotty as part of the reason he's pushing on Cheery and reading CES as town? I mean I realized since you asked him about his team's thoughts it's not inherently scummy, but what are your thoughts?

I'll talk about the other thing you asked in a minute.

[Tammy]

This is EXTREMELY atrocious. Gamma forcefully thinks that sort of "my procedure was bad and i'm alert to this and look over there that's what we OUGHT TO have done CLEARLY" is CONSIDERABLY more plausible to be coming from scum than town as a path of proactively expounding why what they did was bad and trying to persuade players that they're town.

Gamma also didn't like his views about expecting for the scum flip yesterday that feel cocksure and squally

But Regfantown would definitely feel that way. They're pretty obvious comments for him to make.

Which goes with you encouraging him to

Gamma also didn't like his views about expecting for the scum flip yesterday that feel cocksure and squally, and that his remark ages ago about elk not being scum with aeronaut felt like an exemption not to vote him even though that's a fairly negligible thing.

Why would Regfanscum want a reason not to vote Aeronaut?

If you think Regfan is scum, doesn't Ankamius seem like a slamdunk scum buddy anyway? I very much doubt Regfanscum can afford to bus.

I think it might be something to with not wanting to vote elk, I'll bug gamma to redefine that one.

Nope. I'm tending to actually townread Ank.
and since he has now posted his "proof", and it wasn't trying to be a trust tell like I suspected when I asked for it, I think that's still more reason to have him as town.

However since you're trying to move me off my vote to someone that 'could' be a buddy, it's just what?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CES

Yeah, that vote isn't great by any means.

CD, can you just go over why you're voting CES for me? I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting your vote but it sounds like you're voting CES because you think he is a buddy of Regfan?

I want to wait for Anen to finish catching up before this Day ends.

Regfan is doing what most scum do - trying to get read as town.

For example, his recent unvote of me about me being more genuine, and his teammates not thinking that's the case, that's an attempt to get on my good side after calling my post from teammates as in-genuine. His teammates reads giving the opposite opinion is making the read of me straddle the fence, and he could come back if other people were joining my wagon.

This is actually a really good point and something I haven't really paid a lot of attention to (mostly due to thinking Reg was obvtown for most of the game)

If you look at a lot of Regfan's posts, his team differ with him on a lot of opinions/reads. This allows him to reverse his reads quite quickly if he wants to because 'he's following his team.' What do you make of this CES?

Hmm. Regfan and CES make so much sense as well.

That's pretty much it, and the fact he tried to direct me off regfan to someone in his own scumlist told me it was likely enough that I could join the larger wagon.

This whole interaction is just so slimy.

A search of CES through CheeryDog's iso returns no suspicion until this vote. In fact at start of day when oversoul pointed out our suspicion on CES, he got an opposite feeling from how he behaved at end of day. The only thing I can't quite tell if it's regarding CES or Regfan is Post 1001.

But none of the motivation for any of this makes any sense whatsoever. Supposedly Regfan is scum for Post 843 and Post 921 because he was trying to get on Cheery's good side with the unvote which is so wtf I can't believe it was written with a straight face. Scum!Regfan would have no need whatsoever to unvote CheeryDog in the first place because the "I don't play well with others" looked genuine. Who would he be trying to impress there? CheeryDog wouldn't be one of the people that Regfan would be trying to ingratiate himself to if he were scum here, and he could endlessly tunnel CheeryDog and noone here would think anything of it because when Regfan is convinced of a read, he's convinced of a read. Note he did not also jump back onto CheeryDog when he relayed Zar's interpretation of that post and spent a couple of posts pushing psyche.

Like I could buy an argument that he unvoted in order to look like he was actually trying to figure out the game, but the he unvoted so that he could get on his good side and offered his teammate's opposing read so he could jump back on just doesn't make any sense. He wouldn't have to bring up Zar's interpretation to give him a reason to jump back on anyway. Nobody with any experience in this game needs an outside reason to change their mind and then change it back again. No one competent anyway because he could just do what he did do, decide that later posts didn't read genuine. The only reason scum do bring up their teammates reads is to make it look like they're discussing things with their team in order to look like a good townie, not so they can sneak back on a wagon they were reading as scum in the first place.

BBT's post where he says that CD's CES vote isn't good, while voting CES, reads just weird. And this point, which is actually really weak and doesn't make any sense whatsoever regarding Regfan and CES being a team here shouldn't have been such a good point that it reverses BBT's strong town read of Regfan. I have no idea why this point, by someone that BBT claims he can't read and is having trouble reading, is the one that makes BBT think that CES and Regfan are a team.

[Tammy]

Actually if anything, I'd expect more team input.

[Tammy]

Oh Regfan I thought you said within 15 hours. I'll be back in a bit; I need to do something.

[Tammy]

Actually meh never mind I don't feel like leaving.

[Tammy]

I don't understand any of your questions to me Anenin.

[Tammy]

But to clarify, though I can't imagine you'd have those questions when reading the thread. I've been reading this game since the start. I'm on Oversoul's team and switched with Oversoul. I obviously was reading the game because Oversoul gave my reads in Post 408. There's been talk about me switching the game and what that means for my alignment. I'm not sure where you got that I only read iso's because I clearly read the game; I was double checking isos.

How was any of that unclear?

[Tammy]

Drink suckers.

[Tammy]

I was about to say that!

Also, no I clearly am not town reading BBT.

Are you reading my posts?

[Tammy]

I'm leaning toward a cheery dog vote myself.

[Tammy]

Yes, I've been reading all of my team's games from the start as much as I can!

[Tammy]

I don't understand Anenin's catch ups or how he's getting his reads or forming the opinions because they don't follow to me at all. Here and there the comments don't seem to follow the context of what he's reading and I don't get the questions that arise either.

I doubt if Anenin is scum that he's thinking that far ahead to stop a town bloc though.

His vote and reasoning on Ika don't make much sense though. And it's problematic that he's voting off wagon less than 24 hours before deadline.

[Tammy]

antihero have you played with ces before?

[Tammy]

Because some of the things you have him as scum for aren't really things that apply to ces!scum.

He doesn't have "shat his pants" reactions as really the only thing ces!scum fears is chamber. Or at least that used to be true.

He also doesn't really give reads on players in the game other than who he's pushing or maybe defending.

He could be scum but not for the reasons your listing. It's just that people have a tendency to scum read ces for play style, and he can be a difficult read. I'm trying to figure out if the people scum reading him are doing it for play style.

I mean if anything ces is being more open with his thoughts than I've seen from him in some games.

[Tammy]

I'm still worried that he's scum.

I thought he was giving the illusion of trying to figure out the game rather than trying to figure out the game. His pushing to end the day with "wanting a scum flip when he wakes up" seemed to be mirroring Regfan's urgency too much and it felt like he was playing up to Regfan a bit in a similar way that he was playing up to Empire in yoloville. (TBF I got concerned one or both of them were scum, but I'm now of the mind that I'm not sure if both of them as partners would be toting the same line), and I can see the llamarble over regfan kill coming from ces as regfan had him as townier than marble did and I think if he were scum marble would be the one to look more closely at him.

I mean I would have bet my entire bank account that marble was dying last night because he was completely obviously town, but regfan has a point that some people did suspect him in this game. So, people not familiar with llamarble may have left him alive.

Doesn't mean that ces isn't a difficult read. Right now I'm hesitant to lynch him because he would be valuable for town if he's town, even if he thinks he's lost his spark.

[Tammy]

I'm here and I have whiskey!

[Tammy]

Tammy, 1150 Yes, I asked that too. I mean, whether you were reading this game while were you in the other one. Yes, there were those reads but it was unclear whether they happened after merely checking in the game or after reading thoroughly.
Knowing this, the ISO was a double-check, I see.

How was that unclear for me? In our team it's only Wgeurts who's reading the other games (as far as I know) and he just started it today or so.
Also, I started reading this game when I replaced in. It's no surprise that I missed posts and thoughts and whatever, because I wanted to finish my catchup before the Deadline.

Zach: yes, that'swhy I asked for a short summary.

But now I'm going because I'm really tired.

When you say that wgeurts just started reading the game today or so, do you mean this is the first time he's reading the game?

[Tammy]

I'm jealous. I was just drinking bailey-type stuff last night.

Not sure I buy Anens explanation of the mix up in Post 1128, it's part (3). Mind taking a look at that while I read through? I think a team mate just commenting on a game saying "they look ok" is an odd thing to occur and I don't understand how he'd read that as 3 specific people are town read by his team. Might be the fact that I'm still half asleep but the whole thing doesn't make sense.

I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for. I have a really hard time reading Anenin's catchup because they're just comments without context at times and it feels so disjointed.

I don't mind stream of conscious type replace in catchups as I do them sometimes but there's no end of cohesion, and his comments don't make a whole lot of sense to me.

But, I do await Cheery and BBT proclaiming him scum because he and wgeurts are disagreeing on CES though!

Okay wait, no I don't get it. Yeah I don't know.

[Tammy]

'mkay, so what's your issue w/ cheery dog?

I really don't see him trying to figure out the game. His pushes have been odd and more snarky to people trying to figure out the game than inquisitive. His move onto the CES wagon didn't feel right as he'd been voting regfan for a silly reason, and then decided CES was regfan's partner because CES was trying to get him to vote ankamius as if CES would feel the need to go out of his way to save his buddy from one vote on his wagon.

I just don't buy his thought process is a town thought process.

[Tammy]

Oh I also hated his question to me from katsuki. It was really throwaway. He literally said Kats asked why I wanted to know if his teammates were reading the game and had any thoughts. Like what kind of question is that?

[Tammy]

TBF I think those are problematic, but I also don't place a whole lot of stock in psyche making much sense or conveying thoughts in a way that is accurate.

I mean from Psyche's posts I would have said he was making up team reads, but not sure with Anen's commentary. Although I don't know what asking wgeurts what he thought about it now would matter seeing as how it's asking for Psyche and the Anen's relaying of comments from the thread.

I've only played one game with Psyche before and he was part of a Marquis hydra and all he did was troll and snark at people and just in general act like a jerk and I was ready to policy lynch the hydra just to get rid of them because they drove me insane, but they had a friendly neighbor shot so I don't know if he felt like he could just act whatever way he wanted to due to that.

So yeah, I just don't know.

I'm not sure why BBT had a town read on psyche to begin with though.

[Tammy]

So the town reads I feel really good about are zach and antihero.

I feel relatively good about Regfan, ika, and ankamius

Leftovers, need to read through:

Anenin/psyche - psyche did literally nothing, can't read that, waiting for anenins catch up.

Bbt - had a strong scum read there that I'm wavering on, probably in part because everyone seems to think I'm wrong. Bbt - what made you drop your scum read on my slot?

Ces, cheery dog.

I'd probably be fine with lynching most of the leftovers. I just don't think the whole scum team is in there which has me wondering where I went wrong on a town read.

Antihero - when did Oversoul become a decent town read for you? I thought Regfan was your only town read on the aero wagon.

My reads are here. I'm not exactly sure where your reads are at this moment.

I think the read we disagree on is ankamius.

[Tammy]

I know what you mean re; not trusting Psyches posts, had Anen come in and said that he was making the whole thing up and the team never left any comments about the wagon I'd have felt better about the slot than I do now though? I really don't like Anens back tracking and explanation changing from "had you 3 as town" to "thought you were okay players", I don't see how he'd mix that up nor do I see a team just leaving the comment of "those 3 are okay".

Yeah I'm not seeing that Ank town-read, elaborate on it for me please?

Oh I missed this. It got sandwiched into zach's posts and I was wondering where you went.

I think Ank just comes off as naturally scummy. I have two weird concerns about Ank. The one I mentioned as being too protown as my limited experience with Ank is someone who kinda is lurky and reads people off of suspicion he receives, so his being a bit proactive in a sense in his early posts made me concerned that he was trying to appear town in a way he doesn't when town, if that makes sense. I do wonder about him asking me to read the ces v him/cheery dog interaction and the recent post about anenin trying to break up a town block but that only concerns me in a a PEOPLEARETRYINGTOMANIPULATEME kind of way and might not be fair because it could also be due to the fact that we have recent experience together. But his posts where he insists that he's not good as scum, that he would replace out if he were scum (though tbf looking at his team mates this isn't as strong), and his giving his links about the times he sucked as scum all read true to me. If he had a team which comprised of strong scum players that could help him behind the scenes then I'd be a bit more weary of this, but he doesn't.

[Tammy]

I don't even need to claim tokens. I'm just going to outright say I'd have swapped out of a scum role by now.

I can say exactly the same thing (and it's provable). Would you say that's a strong argument for me being town?

This is what I was referring to.

[Tammy]

From what I remember from YOLO way back when, you kind of figure out CES is scum when you can't really see him fitting into the game as town. That's how I remember working him out as scum there.

This. And there's a really subtle underhanded manipulativeness to him when he's scum.

I mean I guess that's true for everyone, but.

[Tammy]

lol

[Tammy]

Regfan: Marble was the obvious night kill last night.

[Tammy]

Ank - When did llamarble use that as an excuse though?

[Tammy]

Regfan: Marble was the obvious night kill last night.

You think? Might just be Empire getting in my head before leaving but I thought it was very likely me. Also is there any more to your Ank town-read because what you've given so far hasn't done much for me, and those meta links of him would be nice please.

\

Yes, that's why I asked you if you really thought you were dying last night. Empire thinking you'd die over marble kinda surprised me too. In fact, Marble's light concern about you is why I started worrying about you in the first place. But like I said the game looks different from the outside. There was not even the slightest little doubt in my mind marble was town.

These are the only ones I can link:

Here's our most recent: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60385

Here's on from a bit ago: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=29483

I feel like there's another completed but I can't think of it right now.

[Tammy]

Ank - When did llamarble use that as an excuse though?

I remember a lot of Llamarble touting how town he was and how great his towngame was throughout day 1 when he was being attacked, which is a pretty significant reason why every member of my team that was reading at the time was scumreading him.

It was less the action itself than the general thought process.

That was actually one of the biggest indicators that Marble was completely town. I think my biggest surprise there is that Mollie is on your team and Nacho is on Marble's team. I'm not sure how much experience Marble has with Mollie, but from what I know Mollie and Nacho talk about mafia and mafia players, so her having absolutely no idea of marble is surprising.

Actually no, if they haven't played together, which is possible because marble hasn't played in a while, I know that Mollie at least followed the first crosstown game so she wouldn't be so completely unaware of marble. Don't know about your other team members though.

But, wait seriously Mollie thought him proclaiming he was town and he had a good town game was why she scum read him??? Does not compute.

[Tammy]

mollie read marble as town early and switched it up later on. Do you want me to ask what her reasoning was? She never went into it in the thread.

But you just said that him proclaiming he was town and really good at this game was a significant reason why every single one of your teammates was scum reading him.

[Tammy]

mollie doesn't think she can read CES even on a good day, thinks that CD is a player that is much better than he looks and just needs to be engaged, and thinks BBT is town right now (doesn't think the aggression is scum) although keeping an eye on him to see if his play deteriorates is advised.

Like right here is a rare mention Ank makes of Cheery where he relays a comment from Mollie about how Cheery needs to be engaged to play well.

So why is he not really making an effort to engage Cheery? Wouldn't that be a good way to read him?

Actually that bugged me as well because Cheery doesn't seem to be disengaged. I've been trying to figure out what to make of that statement actually.

[Tammy]

HEY

I know, spectators are drunk right now!

[Tammy]

Tammy, Ank is scum. believe it.

I'm coming around :/

[Tammy]

HIIIIIIIIIII

zach and tammy are town

i need to reread the interactions of ank to figure out if hes town or not

tammy why are we not voting CD?

I'm a loser who holds onto my vote too long!

[Tammy]

Where was CES posting that Aero would flip town?

[Tammy]

ika I do like hammers, but I don't crave them.

ank - I'm not sure what you mean about that post pointing to ces being more likely scum.

also I thought I'd live to about night four here actually.

[Tammy]

noooooooooooo

[Tammy]

Nope! I'm going to sleep soon myself because I have class in the morning.

But do you have thoughts on cheery dog/ces actually. You might have mentioned it, but I've had whiskey so might not remember.

[Tammy]

Oh that was to ika

[Tammy]

Also, wait. Ank and BBT seem to curiously be touting the same scenarios. Hang on.

[Tammy]

Ank - Early you asked me to read the way that CES was interacting with you versus the way he was interacting with cheery, which implied that you were reading a cheery/CES partnership or so I thought. Are you reading a Cheery/CES/REgfan team then?

[Tammy]

VOTE: cheery

I will be around for a little bit more tonight and will be around tomorrow before deadline.

[Tammy]

now why would tammy be the NK ank?

Because she's widely townread and it doesn't dispel any of the tension on the game if she dies.

What do you mean by this?

[Tammy]

fucking hell people. keep on the ball!

[Tammy]

I'm talking to mollie right now. If anyone wants something from her, now's your chance before I go to bed.

...her thoughts on the game.

[Tammy]

aoc.

pedit: ???

We have to not let equinox get page tops or people will never get to drink!

[Tammy]

OMG zach is my strongest town read.

Why doesn't she like ika?

[Tammy]

He just replaced in tonight I think.

[Tammy]

lol

i'm not sure what ank is asking wisdom right now though?

the question on my mind is should my last drink of the night be whiskey or gin?

[Tammy]

whiskey or gin???

[Tammy]

i don't have tequila

I have whiskey or gin.

[Tammy]

Oh if you haven't played with wisdom, you modded him in the z-mafia micro that wisdom was scum in with red coyote. sooty was the doc and protected nacho night one and me night two in that game.

pedit: to zach

[Tammy]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Tammy]

*sotty...that was an autocorrect.

[Tammy]

ill get to ank in a min but i can tell you right now your bsing or mollie is wrong about meta tells

I don't understand this sentence? What am I bsing about?

[Tammy]

mollie is green in site chat.

[Tammy]

she's even logged in to gchat.

[Tammy]

you should bug her in site chat. she's there!

[Tammy]

Also, since wisdom is talking to you right now that shouldn't prevent you from talking about his reads.

[Tammy]

People deserve to be sober!

[Tammy]

Also, since wisdom is talking to you right now that shouldn't prevent you from talking about his reads.

Wisdom and I are actually pretty synced, like I said before.

He agreed that you and anti were town.
He thought ika was likely town but not as sure; your posting to mollie looked fake.
He agreed that CES was scummy.
He likes BBT for town.
He agrees Anen is scum, mainly because of his elaborate catchup resulting in vague reads.

The Zach read came later during this whole thing.

I mainly asked him for reads on Anti/Ika/you though.

what about me looked town to him, and then what looked fake about my posting to mollie. Do you mean me pointing out that mollie was, in fact, not logged out, because that is easily backed up because oh look still green.

[Tammy]

And oh she's posting on site. I guess that's super fake of me to point out she's still here. yep yep.

[Tammy]

I don't know what you're asking me ika?

[Tammy]

Ika I'm not going to point out the town tell I have for you. And if you're town, and my tell is correct, you shouldn't be claiming that I'm either bsing the town tell on you or mollie has the scum tell on you which is correct, which if I'm interpreting correctly is wtf because if you were town you shouldn't be questioning my town tell on you.

[Tammy]

just forget what i was asking in general it can be talked about post-game tammy

ika if you're town this game and my town tell is correct I'm never going to tell you post-game. Just like I've never told Thor the town-tells I have on him. These are things I've collected that I don't want people to be able to fake, and as long as no one is disagreeing with me and I can fight against a lynch without outing them I won't.

[Tammy]

sure bump

[Tammy]

bump

[Tammy]

DRINK

[Tammy]

Oh zach you don't know about the equinox drinking game?

You follow along with an equinox game and you take a drink for every page top she misses.

[Tammy]

She doesn't miss all that many.

[Tammy]

what do you make of ankamius unvoting ces before leaving?

[Tammy]

I need to go to sleep too. I have class in the morning.

I look forward to hearing how I'm town but fake posting at a mollie when the question was what are the reads and is online as evidenced by green and posting!

Though if I wake up dead because tension something noone is allowed to use my read as backup except that Zach is 100% town.

[Tammy]

I hope but aI really think so!

[Tammy]

I'm just glad I was right about BBT being scum early day one with so many people saying I was wrong.

My biggest failure in mafia is not sticking to my guns when everyone tells me I'm wrong. I should have.

[Tammy]

On a serious note though; the shit that ika is allowed to get away with it just unreal.

I've never seen someone so scummy and yet so hard to mislynch.

It in part has to do with that thing in your signature that you hate and think has no value

[Tammy]

I didn't expect to die that night! I was planning on coming for you the next day. I did think you started seeming townish in lylo but then I was thinking it was regfan scum, so, who knows.

I don't know if you'd would have been able to convince me you were town if I were in the game.

I do wish I'd have stuck to my gut on what bs it seemed that empire told regfan he was dying night one noob. My gut said no way no how empire would have thought regfan died over marble with the way things were going and how marble was playing vs. how regfan was playing, but.

[Tammy]

I do feel like I'd have been able to give all of our games better attention if it weren't for the RL stuff I had going on.

(Which is just ending now. I'm waiting on one form to get signatures and make it's way to the dean's office and then I'm totally official.)

[Tammy]

One of my thoughts when I saw I died was I'm distracted how am I dead?

[Tammy]

I should actually have listened to Sotty more. She had a pretty hard scumread on Reg for a large part of the game.

I felt something was off with him, but didn't want to rattle that cage because I didn't think I could make any convincing narrative for him being scum.

You could have talked to me about it. I wasn't entirely comfortable with Regfan, but I wanted him to be town.

You were pretty much the only person I was 100% sure on.

[Tammy]

Oh yeah, thanks for running it Equinox and congrats to the scum team!

I had a good time playing with all of you. I wish that I was in the game longer than I was and that I wasn't so distracted by RL, but it was fun regardless!

Hopefully Monday I'll find out that it's official that I'm a doctor!

[Tammy]

Yeah I thought the way bbt and regfan played lylo was awesome in that they played up people's fears of a regfan/ces partnership.