Mini 1677 - Ori and the Blind Forest Mafia - Forest Revived

[White Night Imagination]

a

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mollie town

ika town

MS town?

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Obligatory: am annoyed by policy lynch being brought up, even though it's not alignment-indicative - well, no, especially because it isn't. We're not going there because it is void of information. Now that's out of the way.

^this

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Heh. I already have two townreads. This should be fun.

VOTE: Bookitty

elaborate

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you are kidding me, right

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I was literally just about to make my textbook post saying "we'll sign if necessary, but it should be obvious who is who here".

then you go and say that

p-edit: hai

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can you walk me through why you think mollie is scum? I don't agree with her push on you, but I think her attitude early-game is somewhat town - namely the way she's reaching out to a bunch of people. even if she-scum would go for this kind of approach, I think if she *did*, it'd look different to here - namely I think her-scum would be more likely to simply buddy up to you out the gate instead of trying to "sort" you with a quick push

also, I don't really agree with the singer scum read, but I'm seeing where it goes first

p-edit: @MS

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@pie

okay, looks like you will have to sign.

also, maybe i am getting rebound syndrome but mollie's push on me without trying to interact with me in a meaningful way is really disgusting. it reminds me of a recent game.

seriously

if it uses caps/proper punctuation, it's Brian, if not, it's pieguyn

if every post it makes is a wall post, it's Brian, if not, it's pieguyn

I'm staring in disbelief you wouldn't know that by now. ._.

I disagree that her posts towards you weren't meaningful. both her posts were direct questions, and I don't think either one is unreasonable - in both cases, I can see why she picked up on what she did. so far the only thing that feels out of place if I squint is the "why no reach out", but I'm pretty sure she does that as town so I'm not reading into it.

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What don't you agree with? There's no read to agree or disagree with. I was caught confirming before work in my own futile effort to get as many confirmations in as possible and they voted me for not reading or commenting on anything yet. What is there to "see where it goes" when it didn't start...anywhere...

Also, how do you say scum-Mollie would go for this approach but propose it would look entirely differently? Why do you disagree with her push on MS?

that may or may not be exactly why I don't agree with the scum reads on you. "see where it goes" was my way of saying I wanted to see your response to it before giving my opinion

I'm not saying scum-mollie would necessarily go for this approach - just that *if* she did, it would likely look different than here. if you try to buddy up to a bunch of people at the start of the game, you would likely not do it by BS'ing a push on them. and if she wouldn't, it's a moot point.

I don't think MS sheeping ika is alignment indicative. I don't think MS asking Andy who he's familiar with is alignment indicative either - I could just as easily see it coming from town-him as scum-him.

RQS Questions
If you’re town answer, if you don’t answer vig gets a nice clear headshot
1. Which element would you choose (theme related) – Water, Wind, or Warmth?
2. Choose a player you’ve played with already in this game and describe their town vs. scum meta
3. Choose a player you don’t know at all and ask them a question.

1. don't have a clue. water just bc I like water
2. MS always appears as lynchbait when he's town, but he's not. if you look at the actual motivation behind his posts, he's usually pretty obviously town. scum MS functions by making a bunch of posts in order to obfuscate and hoping no one realizes nothing he's saying actually makes any sense.
3. if I see something I want to ask about, I'll ask about it.

P-Edit: Don't like singer's vote on the player who hasn't even confirmed, it avoids direct interactions with anyone.

you realize she was asking a bunch of people questions in the post directly above the post where she voted, correct?

Pretty excited for singer as well and she addressed a couple things very well.

what, specifically, did singer address well?

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add in grib and elusive and i think we are set atm

can you walk me through these? namely elusive

pretty sure posts 25 and 29 were me ineracting with you, yeah? so that is a lie. i thought your responses were crappy so i voted you.

nick is froggy. I had just got done explaining to froggy as to why I was voting you and making sure he was okay with that. and I feel good about you being scum for the reasons that I stated. gold is a good thing cos i think your OMGUS is scummy as fuck. hitting scum is hitting gold to me.

you're on the wrong track here

what MS is saying is that while, yes, you are interacting with him, none of the questions you're asking him are particularly good or useful

also I am probs not gonna answer elusive's questions I think they are pointless and idc if she thinks it is a scumclaim. it isn't. it is me wanting to get shit done cos I usually have the lifespan of a housefly when I am town and I don't have time to cater things that I don't feel like is particularly meaningful.

mebbe I am just uncreative.

I don't like this post. I'm fairly sure the questions she asked require basically 0 effort to answer. in fact, I think this post would have required more effort to make than actually answering the questions. this reads more like you're attempting to appear like you want to be productive, without actually accomplishing anything.

ika is a townlean for being interested in the game. elusive is a stronger townlean for her pregame post ('/hope' is such a town!elusive thing to do) and for her first game post.

do you think she wouldn't think to fake "/hope" as scum?

what in her first game post was town?

Quick initial reads say that Pirate Mollie and her companion are town, Plum seems pretty town ... and now I'm drawing a blank on what I just read.

walk me through why Plum is town?

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I think singer *might* be town, but I'm not particularly sure about it. I also liked Plum's 108 to some extent.

I don't have a problem with mollie beyond that one post I quoted.

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I liked her responses regarding Grib and mollie - its very singer of her and I can see her train of thought so to speak? Does that make sense? I won't claim to know her very well but we've played some rather invovled games together and I know her a bit outside of mafia games enough; I digress - those were good thoughts that I thought appropriate and agreed with.

I think I agree with this. at least the part about mollie - I liked the way she immediately came out pushing her out the gate and I can see what she was picking up on.

I still can't make anything out of singer vs. Grib. while I think Grib was correct in calling her out for jumping to a conclusion over the town reads he gave, I do not think this is scummy - and I do not think Grib's posts have been telling either way. do you scum read Grib at this point?

Basically all I've seen from you has been anything but trying to parse out the game outside of buddying up to people in your circle. It doesn't feel like you're bothering to get a read on the "not easy people" to read, since if you're familiar with them, that should fall in place eventually, right?

will wait for Grib to respond to this before explaining in-depth, but I don't agree with your read on him so far.

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you're misreading basically everything about my post

reread

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elusive is prob town. I don't have a specific reason for this (although OTOH I found her frustration with mollie town), I'm just willing to trust everyone else's meta assessment of her. that, and I haven't found anything she's done scummy.

I don't think Yukari has done anything town, but I disagree with all the reasons people are finding him scummy so far. the confusion over the setup, while extremely misguided, I think is null - it doesn't strike me as *that* unreasonable for a town player to think, and the logic behind his MS push makes sense - he thinks MS is asking filler questions and attempting to appear like he's being productive, without actually doing anything that has town motivation. while I disagree with the way both he and MS are pushing each other, I don't think either of them are scummy for being on either end of it.

Andrius might be town for the early singer read.

I still have no read on Grib. I intend to look more into this when I'm not tired as hell.

I have no scumreads :<

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actually now that I think about it, I think the first sentence of Yukari's 194 is something scum are more likely to just do rather than explicitly say. but, meh.

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Right - I know mollie well enough and I think singer is AT THE LEAST pressuring her to see if the whole 'sort out the easy reads' is contrived or not. Sincere or not.
Grib has pinged the radar - I would put them in the scum part of a reads list at present but I will re-read him and the singer/mollie thing later with the goal of clarity - I want to re-connect with those events after taking a break from my initial reaction to as to hopefully not poison the well before I drink.

once you're ready, I'd like to hear why you think Grib is scum if you still think that. I'm having a lot of trouble parsing anything out of his posts.

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White Night Imagination, I want to know the story behind your name. If Singer was questioning people why put the vote in a way that doesn't align with her questioning? There is a bit of discord between questioning a person, maybe pressuring them but putting the vote someone else.

Spoiler:

yes, I just took the name of a JRPG OP (please ignore the fact it says "Illusion" on there and not "Imagination", either is correct) and used it as the hydra name. I'm lazy =A=

VOTE: White Night Imagination

Hi, there Let's chat.

what do you wanna talk about?

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o, to answer the first question, I don't think votes not matching who a player is questioning at that specific instance is scummy. sometimes you want to pressure another person, or otherwise use your vote for strategic reasons. I used to get accused of that all the time as town whenever I'd want to push multiple people at once and my reaction was always the same (that it's not a scum tell).

either way, I don't have a problem with it and I usually see angles like that pushed by scum looking for an easy thing to comment on more often than town. in case it's not obvious based on my most recent post, I don't think it holds water anymore, though.

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why the fuck arent ika and pie and zzzx sheeping me on yukari?? i said that i have caught scum and i am right very often at early game and i am pretty fucking frustrated with this game

can you walk me through *why* Yukari is scum? I'd look at it but I don't actually know what your reasoning is (sans that last post and I'm still undecided on it - while I agree most of it is shallow and/or incorrect, there are some things making me think it is likely just coming from misguided town).

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post

i think you might be town, but your push on MS is extremely misguided

just as one point, the "ori role" is literally how theme games work - you have a character (ori) with a mafia role assigned to it (and even then it doesn't have to be a standard mafia role, some theme games have more complex or entirely new roles). it's not a fake claim just bc "there's no ori role on the wiki". and you're still misinterpreting how the setup works - the role pools in the first post only apply to actual mafia roles and not character flavors.

and him claiming he saw your role PM is pretty obviously a joke

among other things

i think *if* MS is scum here, it's likely not for any of the reasons you're pointing out. i can break it down in-depth if you want.

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So why the hell are you telling us this? Not every read is information. This especially is the opposite of information. Also, why the hell haven't you even voted? Like 100% seriously you have plenty of words and posts but it's all nothing. You have no scumreads? Guess what, you're not doing what you need to do as Town. You're basically not doing anything.

haven't caught up, but real quick, I agree I haven't done anything yet! I've found most of the scum reads ppl have pushed so far this game to be either entirely null or otherwise found none of it compelling (see, most recently, MS and Yukari re: each other). and I haven't found anyone individually scummy, either.

this tends to happen to me a lot (recently I've had a lot of trouble getting scum reads early), but even compared to what's usual for me, I'm having an excessively difficult time parsing anything out of this game. feel free to ask if you have anything specific you want me to comment on/justify.

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ohey I have a read.

My english isnt the best but I can see alot of misrep here, How can asking someone if he can sort people out hunting for good scum hunters? sorting people out = reading them... Also metal as scum has a prob decent idea of this playerlist so he wouldnt need help to know who can scum hunt.

I doubt both metal and yuka are town, its prob tvs or mayybeeee svs, but i doubt the latter.

And thus I shall do this

VOTE: Yukari

really hated that post i quoted. that sums up my reasoning.

first off, what, specifically, about this makes you think it's "TvS or SvS"? it's clear you think Yukari is scum, but what's the point in even bringing it up then? it is usually not correct to say "this is TvS" and then fit reads to this, rather it should be the other way around - what you did, on the other hand, allows you to backtrack and push MS afterward if Yukari flips town.

in particular, I don't buy your stance this might be bussing. it makes me think you're just trying to take advantage of the massive shitstorm that's going on right now by trying to get one of {Yukari, MS} lynched without caring which.

second off, while I think most of Yukari's post was wrong, this particular line of reasoning is a really shit reason for scum reading him.

it is correct that MS would probably have a good idea of who the competent scum hunters in this game are if he's scum. OK. the problem is, this doesn't make Yukari scum. Yukari likely, regardless of their alignment, would not know that MS would know something like this - so this line of reasoning is reasonable for town-them to at least think.

your angle here essentially amounts to "Yukari's post is wrong, therefore they're scum" - which is really just a bullshit throwaway reason.

The thing is Yukari, he did NOT as who the best scum hunter is, He asked who a person thought to be scum/town. that is a huge differnce.

also I think you did tell something about me sheeping you and not the other way around, but this call for sheeping gives me good feelings. In the metal we trust for now.

this questioning is really weak. is this really the only thing you have for Yukari being scum? you claim his post contained "a lot of" misreps, but I only actually see you pushing this one issue. what else, specifically, did you have an issue with, and why aren't you questioning him over it (in favor of spending all your time poking at MS instead)?

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short reads post

zzzx - null. From the little background I have on zzzx I find his play style to come across as scummy because it is quite lurky, but because this seems so common to him I disregard it as alignment indicative and thus have a hard time reading his play. For people who have good knowledge of zzzx what are your feelings on him thus far in the game?
metal sonic - scum lean*
grib - slight scum lean (note: grib thought their vote on plum was bad)
plum - town lean
yukari - scum lean*
andrius/singer/WNI/bookitty - null
elusive - slight town lean
frogging mollie - slight town lean
ika - slight town lean. I find your play style hard to decipher alignment indication from. Would be interested to know what people who know ika think of them at this point.

* considering MS is pushing a yukari lynch so hard I think I am perhaps wrong on at minimum one of these reads. But as stand alones I find them both scummy.


VOTE: Yukari

this reads list is incredibly safe and feels more like it's derived from what everyone else in the game is thinking as opposed to original thought. why, specifically, are MS/Grib/Yukari scum leans and do you make anything of my above post re: ZZZX?

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I agree with the assessment that Boo pushing MS/elusive as partners is out of place. I'm also kind of curious what, specifically, she finds town about my play or why she's otherwise not sold on me being scum.

I still think the reasoning behind this MS wagon is rather shit from all sides. while I'm not 100% he's town here, I haven't found any of the reasoning put forth thus far compelling. I'd also like to know what ppl think of the abundance of people who seem to be soft pushing the wagon without actually being on it (Hydrangea and Boo come to mind).

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vote: ZZZX

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I'm still trying to make some damn sense out of this situation. I don't want to vote Yukari at this point - I currently think both of you are town and scum are just sitting on the sidelines and taking advantage of the massive shitstorm that's going on between you 2 right now. and then at the same time, I think I'm seeing more things that point to you-town and I've disagreed with all the reasons you're being wagoned so far, but I don't feel 100% about it

can you do me a favor real quick and tell me who you think scum are *if* Yukari is town here? also want to know if you disagree with my reasoning on ZZZX or if this is just because it's incompatible with Yukari/mollie.

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also calling MS scum for OMGUS'ing people suspecting him is a really shit reason for scum reading him

same thing with him spam/caps-posting - which is smth I've known him to do as town

the only thing that makes me think MS might be scum so far is 249 and subsequent posts - I usually don't see him come out the gate *that* strongly when pushing someone, which makes me think he might have just made it up - but I'm undecided on if it makes sense it would come from him being frustrated as town. either way, I'm not interested in pursuing it at this juncture

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@WNI...why ZZZX? Did I miss it?

333

Bookitty is my best bet at scum imagining yukari did not exist

I think I agree with this. her posting when she was here did not really make me feel good about her.

I'm still waiting for Brian to get here, btw. when he does I'll hopefully have more coherent thoughts on whether Yukari is town/scum and why.

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like if you want a lynch we can do hydra but im not touching the molie lynch with a 20 foot poll

^I'm up for this.

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Ah, ok I agree with your assessment about TvS since I fucking hate that shit and 1v1s are inherently anti-town forever and ever. But wouldn't the bussing theory be quashed the second one flips town?

I think with the bussing theory it's more "push both of them as scum at the same time so that one of them gets lynched". it'd obviously be disproved once one flips town, but the goal is more to get people to lynch either of them and then leave it at that as opposed to getting both of them lynched

But ZZZX and hydra have not reeeaaally done anything noteworthy? I'd even like Andy to come back and engage more, but again, I'm talking about default mislynches for scum. Unless you can really point me to where either have shown signs to be scum...

I didn't like Hydrangea's reads list; it felt like it was derived from everyone else's opinions at that point and putting both MS and Yukari as scum in particular felt way too easy. I agree it'd be good to hear specifically *why* she has the reads she has.

in general, I currently think both MS/Yukari are town and really want to go for a wagon outside of there at this point. I'd also support a Boo wagon.

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@Everyone, assuming we are town and MS is lying about seeing our role, would you think there is any chance MS could still be town?

also, this is just as I said before

MS was pretty fucking obviously joking about "seeing your role". I know you think he lied, but that's really all there is to it - he wasn't being serious.

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uh

what

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is Ank even online atm?

or why can you supposedly not replace out

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either way: you know just as well as I do that I won't let you get lynched if I think you're town here. the only reason I haven't done anything yet is bc I don't really have strong feelings for you being town - and I'm kind of hoping Brian gets here soon so he can help me confirm/deny it before I do anything to shut down the wagon on you.

p-edit: why would you ask a listmod if you could replace out of the game? and why didn't you do this before actually replacing out?

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I reread mollie just now. I'm actually really not happy with her (and I'm not really fond of frog's posts, either, although I think it might just be playstyle) - way less so than Yukari, who I think is likely town mostly bc even though what he's pushing is blatantly wrong I don't see some parts of it coming from scum

I think I'm seeing exactly what you first saw re: her. I see her pushing you as scum but I don't actually see a reason anywhere: just "lol this is MS' scumgame" while writing a lot of words about irrelevant stuff to cover it up. frog's posting is the same way (303 specifically made me think this, but as I said idk if this is just playstyle or not). I also really fucking hate her attitude towards elusive in general when elusive didn't actually do anything to deserve it, it feels really out of place - as if she's faking it.

the only thing I think looks town is the paragraph in 261 about myself, bc I can see why she would think that - but even then, calling someone defending the mislynch you want to push scum with them is a good way of discrediting them.

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eep

*they're

I'm really sorry! /hide

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yo elusive, do you still wanna chat?

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Do you know MS well? What do you think of my post to him above, particularly why he claimed at pretty low pressure and also why he fixates on Yukari without having done some research to back up his alleged scum read?

MS and I have played a fair amount with each other. in general, I think most of what you're accusing him of is playstyle as opposed to alignment-related. the first thing is

2. Your reaction to light pressure was bizarre. You basically did a combo of frenzied posts, AtE, fixating on a newbie\possible mislynch bait, and claiming\fake claiming a character at a point when you weren't in deep danger. Honestly, the possibility of your claim being true and no cc is the only reason I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I think this was done primarily due to conviction as opposed to anything else - he thinks Yukari is scum and thinks by claiming the main character it will give him credibility to lynch him/stop people from wanting to lynch him instead. I also think *if* he's scum here, he was going for this as opposed to doing it for strategic reasons (i.e. he's either town, or scum faking it). the claim itself is null due to how theme games work - often flavor isn't tied to alignment or major characters are left out of the game and provided to scum as safe claims - but the way he did it was also null.

I think the way he was "flailing" here is also playstyle. he generally reacts very strongly as town in situations where a lot of players wouldn't - which leads to people thinking he's flailing and lynching him as a result. I also think he thought he was in more danger than he is (he's the leading wagon and a lot of other people seem to be questioning him) - I buy that he saw the wagon on him and saw the "writing on the wall", so to speak.

4. If you are staying in the game, stop pulling these shenanigans and engaging in theater. No one listens to, except maybe scum, to people who are screaming\etc or don't provide logical and sensible cases. Not only that I find players who scream scum and give weak cases or don't do their research to be scummy. Stagnant reads is also scummy.

if you're asking MS to do research to confirm/deny his scum reads, you're asking the wrong person

I don't think stagnant reads are, by nature, scummy. if nothing is happening to change your reads, you shouldn't have to change them. I get accused of that all the time (both by town, and alternatively scum trying to discredit me by claiming I'm "tunneling") and my reaction is always the same - that nothing happened to make me second guess/question my reads. in MS's case, I don't think he had much of a reason to reevaluate the Yukari read so far sans the meta you're linking him.

Also, what do you think of this:

I don't think there's anything off about it. why does it strike you as off?

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Yukari's line of thought felt really full of bullshit, I hate bullshit.

also I have a guy feeling two town players would not interact in that way, I am pretty sure of it.

explain *why* it was full of bullshit

explain *why* you specifically think 2 town players wouldn't interact that way without regard to what they're doing individually

explain whether you will suddenly start believing MS is scum if Yukari gets lynched and flips town - bc if this is the case, this is nothing more than lining up lynches, and if it's not, your line of reasoning here doesn't make sense

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2. Bookitty
11. White Night Imagination (pieguyn + Brian Skies)

and explain both of these

because it feels like you're just putting all the popular scum reads as scum - again

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I'll respond to other posts later bc it's 4 AM. night

[White Night Imagination]

mollie

reads that aren't MS/me. go

[White Night Imagination]

while I agree MS' "replace out" looks really bad, the problem is that I think he might actually do something like that as town - along the lines of legitimately wanting to replace out, deciding not to, and then making up the excuse after the fact hoping he won't look like complete shit off it

survivalism != automatically scum for someone like him

I'm not saying he's town for it; just that *if* I scum read him here, it won't be for that. the only reason I've found potentially compelling for him being scum is still the way he immediately reacted to mollie/Yukari out the gate.

I haven't checked Yukari's meta yet. will do that after catching up.

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@elusive:

re: singer, I don't think singer only ruling out 2 ppl is scummy. as long as she does stuff to narrow it down by the end of the day, I don't have a problem with it. do you think the rest of her play outside of this is passive? I was town reading her bc, while I don't agree with all of her lines of questioning/pushes, I thought most of it made sense.

@fro9:

re: your posts, nothing in particular, sans 303 - I just don't think you've done anything town. I didn't like some parts of 406 either, but I'm not sure if it's actually relevant or if it's just playstyle.

@MOLLIE: READS THAT AREN'T MS/ME. GO.

@ZZZX:

what the fuck was the point of specifically saying MS vs. Yukari was "not TvT" if Yukari flipping town wouldn't affect your read? if your reads were based on Yukari/MS's individual play, what was the point in even bringing it up? town do not form reads in this way. you are wanting to take advantage of the MS vs. Yukari fight by vaguely stating one of them has to be scum and fitting your reads to the conclusion - rather than approaching this in a town manner (namely actually committing to a firm stance on the individual players).

@MS:

why is ZZZX town?

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I think MS is likely town here. mollie's push on him is, put bluntly, fake as fuck. what she is doing is writing a bunch of words about irrelevant shit and hoping no one notices she's not actually backing up *why*, specifically, she thinks MS's play is scummy - the only exception to this is the thing about MS replacing out, but given how fucking awful that looks that by itself is easy enough to fake. she also has, quite literally, no reads outside of MS-scum and me-scum for defending him. she's just blindly tunneling him and hoping no one realizes she's not *actually* game solving here. fro9's 406 comes off more like he's just twisting Yukari's posts to call them scum (the part about them being concerned with a quickhammer in the newbie game and this somehow making them scum here for... ???... comes to mind).

ZZZX is also likely scum.

I don't get where scum reads on Plum are coming from - I remember liking 108. someone walk me through it.

I buy Yukari saying they wanted to play differently in this game from the last game. while I think it's a shit strategy, them apparently wanting to "play scummy on purpose" would explain why they went full-force pushing MS out the gate.

I'm currently waiting to see if Brian gets here anytime soon so we can consolidate thoughts before I really push anything. if he doesn't, I'll go ahead and elaborate more in-depth on these reads.

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also, while I think her being inactive is a really shit reason for scum reading Boo here, I think Boo might be scum more or less bc I haven't liked what she did while she *was* here (Plum's point about her pushing MS/elusive comes to mind). I'll support the wagon there if need be.

[White Night Imagination]

WNI: why is ZX scum (im presuming you have him on scum lean at least)

more or less bc most of his arguments don't make sense and generally feel more like easy throwaway excuses - and as I explained I fucking hate the way he's going about the MS vs. Yukari debate

as one example I didn't mention, him calling me scum for supposedly using a bunch of "what ifs" when all that means is that I don't feel strongly about a read and that I'd rather consider possibilities either way instead of committing to a firm stance when I don't have one

I can elaborate in-depth but I think I've covered most of them already.

[White Night Imagination]

andy slot is a weaker scumread but it is there for now.

y

pediti: meh, i find it null form him but whateveer your not listening to someone who WENT THOUGH A GOD DAMN NIGHTLESS GAME WHERE HE WAS SCUM

I won't just listen to reads bc "lol experience". if she supposedly has experience with him, she should be able to explain *how* he's playing to his scum meta, or why him ATE'ing is scummy (which it's not, he ATEs in response to pressure as town) or otherwise why the way he's specifically going about it here is scummy - but rather than doing this, she's creating a bunch of noise and hoping no one notices she doesn't actually have a solid reason for MS being scum here

and I'm not "confbiasing" here - if someone actually shows me *why* this is incorrect, I'll reevaluate it

[White Night Imagination]

not reading anything past this cos metal is lying and you know it but are trying to give him an out and appeal to derp town in order to avoid his lynch.

it isn't fake cos when presented with the cold hard truth your whole world just crumbles and you know that you have tied yourself to a player who has done something shitty and shld be beyond the pale of the game cos that is the only recourse you have and ank actually has pretty thick skin.

HAHA

I actually lol'd when I read this. what "cold hard truth" have you presented for MS being scum here? you're writing a bunch of words about how MS is "obvscum" and "this is his scum game" without explaining why you actually think this - the only plausible reason you've actually given was the thing with him replacing out, but that's so fakeable *if* he's town here it's not funny

it's as I said. this is even more pointless noise aimed to distract.

[White Night Imagination]

eh.

vote: Boo

[White Night Imagination]

I get that you're trusting mollie, etc., but put bluntly, I fucking hate the way she's pushing him. I won't sheep a push that has obvious scum intent and literally no fucking reasoning outside of MS "replacing out". and I have enough experience with MS to make my own judgement call on him.

if you sold me on mollie town or otherwise explained why her push isn't scum motivated at the least, I'd be more inclined to buy it

[White Night Imagination]

like, she posts a bunch of words saying MS is scum here, and offers vague reasoning behind it, but if you actually look at her posts, she

never

actually elaborates on how MS's actions actually fit what she's saying or why the way he's doing it is scummy

/shrug

p-edit: @ika

[White Night Imagination]

^and she just did it again in that post

[White Night Imagination]

lmao. you are kidding me, right

[White Night Imagination]

if you were reading the game, you would know why what you just said is blatantly wrong

but you don't care - you're scum spouting bullshit in order to distract

[White Night Imagination]

what benifit does scum!mollie get from pushing MS all day over anyone else?

1. it gives her something to do to look like she's scum hunting when she really isn't (you'll notice her apparent Andrius read is literally the first read she had outside of MS/me. COINCIDENCE?)

2. she can likely get MS lynched - for proof of this, see MS' "replace out" which is just about the easiest angle ever for scum to push *if* he is town here

frankly, pushing him as scum despite supposedly being able to read him 100% is a perfectly viable course of action. I don't really think it's a good idea to just assume she wouldn't push MS-town if she was scum here.

it looks like you disagree with this entirely on principle, though, so whateverr

pedit2: she has been stating it all damn game tbf, i can understand 100%. i dont get how you dont see it. shes tryig her damn best to artiulate it but you keep going "nope nope nope"

she has been stating it all game, yes. she has *not* actually explained why in any of the times she's stated it - when she does provide reasoning, it is usually entirely unsubstantiated or is smth that is not inherently scummy.

so

[White Night Imagination]

where?

every time she's called him scum, she either just doesn't back it up with anything or she doesn't actually explain *how* MS' play fits what she's saying or why it's scummy

[White Night Imagination]

^this sums it up nice IMO

the only actual reasoning in that entire post is that MS is scum for supposedly faking a replace out

the rest of it is, again, all noise - saying MS usually plays the victim card with her when scum (without explaining how this applies to this specific game), continuing to push this "MS is throwing his town meta to his scum meta" which still isn't a reason for MS being scum to begin with, saying MS is "confscum", and calling for more people to lynch MS

it's as I said. that is literally the only time this entire game she gave any reasoning at all for MS being scum - and it's so fakeable it's not funny. if you're scum and someone pulls something like that as town, you will naturally never let up on it bc of how fucking awful it looks. that kind of behavior is typical of scum taking advantage of town making a mistake. (not that I think she's scum for it - just that the way she's pushing it is not town)

there is no reasoning given anywhere outside of that post. seriously, go back and check. IF you can show me where she gave any kind of case at all that wasn't just "this is MS's scum game" - and actually backed it up with evidence as opposed to just stating shit and hoping people accept it as truth without cross referencing it - I'll drop this, but she fucking hasn't.

[White Night Imagination]

I am not going to repeat what has been evident in the game which you keep trying to find excuses to handwave away and decide to be stubborn about it cos it was not your idea in the first place.

ITT:

mollie: "ms is obvscum"
Grib: "spell out why he's obvscum"
mollie: "I'm not going to bother spelling it out bc he's obvscum!"

[White Night Imagination]

k

now link me *where* you actually explained it

[White Night Imagination]

so Grib.

have you considered that mollie's constant refusal to give a more specific explanation of why MS is scum here when asked might just be bc...... she's scum BS'ing her push and doesn't actually have an explanation?

[White Night Imagination]

you awkwardly tried to clear him for it.

except I didn't - I merely pointed out that in this case it wasn't a good reason for reading him as scum. this is not "clearing" him. my town read on him comes from other reasons.

recap: metal was sucking up to ika early game which is what he did to nacho in nightless.

OK. so, this is referring to him claiming at several points early game he was "sheeping ika".

the first problem with this is that this isn't really sucking up to him. how, exactly, is saying you're "sheeping" someone in RVS sucking up to them? why couldn't it be something simple like RVS shenanigans? there is nothing wrong here - blatantly sheeping someone in RVS is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. there is nothing about this that is more indicative of scum than town.

moreover, *if* he wanted to suck up to someone, what benefit would there be to doing it to ika as opposed to someone he is more familiar with (such as myself or yourself)? and even if he did see it fit to buddy ika for whatever reason, where was the follow-up on it? just "sheeping" someone in RVS really does not buddying make as it really does not do anything to gain credibility with someone in the long term - if that was his scum strategy here, he likely would have continued to buddy up to him after RVS was over, or at least done *something* else along those lines, but that's not what he did. the next mention of ika was 166 (reads list where he puts him as town) and then 282/285 (mentions him in passing).

there's nothing in his ISO up to this point that could be construed as buddying or sucking up to him. so you think his scum strategy was apparently to sheep ika in RVS in order to buddy him, bc he thought this would allow him to get on ika's good side for ..... ??? ..... and then completely drop it?

saying that he's scum for doing the same thing he did in his scum game, by itself, is also shallow, for the same reason. I'm pretty sure MS generally buddies ppl when he's town as well as when he's scum. saying it's part of his scum game feels more like you're twisting the evidence to fit the conclusion instead of analyzing it objectively - that he would likely do something like this as either alignment.

what you're doing here completely discounts the context behind his posts. as far as I could tell, he buddied up to Nacho in the nightless game bc Nacho was a strong force as town who would likely be adept at pushing lynches and they have a fair amount of experience with each other. ergo, gaining credibility with him would be useful bc he would be likely to strongly town read him as a result or otherwise not get him lynched. how is that the same as what he's doing here? no offense to ika but I really do not think he would be that high priority of a target for buddying here. it's as I said before. why, strategically, would he have buddied ika here?

it's not the same fucking thing. and you claiming it is reads more like you're pushing a throwaway reason for him being scum without actually considering the context, or the motivation, behind his posts.

recap: he is OMGUSing any1 who suspects him

except he isn't?

he pretty fucking obviously is not scum reading you. rather, he is attempting to convince you that your read on him is incorrect and that you are giving scum places to hide. this has been the case ever since the start of the game. rather than attempting to discredit you by calling you scum, or attempting to buddy up to/manipulate you, he's attempting to convince you that your push on him is misguided and appeal to you to vote along with him.

it's true that he is scum reading Boo, who is scum reading him - except his scum read on Boo started from 166, whereas Boo started scum reading MS in 284. so it is incorrect to claim that he did it in response to Boo scum reading him. he also explained the Boo read to some extent; he believes Boo's recent posting is devoid of actual content, which is actually a pretty accurate assessment of her posts. the same thing with Plum - Plum had suspected him early, but he put her as leaning town at that point in the game. his scum read on Plum did not exist until recently. so it is, again, incorrect to claim he did it in response to Plum scum reading him

the only person this actually applies to is Yukari. and at that point, you can't fucking say he is "omgus'ing anyone who suspects him" - it's only one person. this, by itself, is not more likely to come from scum than town. it is natural for town to look at someone pushing them and conclude that their push is not coming from a town place.

except when you take in body of work.

OK. so what, specifically, about the "body of work" makes him scum here?

you're, again, claiming this without backing it up. this entire angle needs more elaboration - you can't just claim "lol body of work" as a reason for thinking something is scummy. body of work can mean basically anything. what are you referring to here?

[White Night Imagination]

also, I hope you're aware that none of that has anything to do with what I even asked

if you supposedly think MS is doing all these things, you should be able to answer which posts, specifically, make you think this. but you aren't - bc you don't actually believe what you're saying.

[White Night Imagination]

Is terrible. As is the continued asking for froggingmollie to back their shit up, when it's kinda obvious what's going on. Cancel my town-read on that slot for now.

what is terrible about it?

honestly, MS is probably the only player I'd allow something like that from - as has been alluded to several times over the course of the game, he has somewhat of an ... anti-town ... playstyle. it's a meta read based specifically on MS. put bluntly, I think MS just fucked up and mollie is scum latching onto it because of how awful it looks. she knows there really is no logical explanation for what MS-town did, so she keeps pressuring him and pulls this up whenever she wants to push him as scum in order to discredit any kind of argument for him being town.

this kind of behavior is extremely typical of scum - and in fact, I have actually had scum do this exact same thing to me in a previous game when I had similarly fucked up on how I used a PR. they kept pushing me over that while ignoring my actual response to their arguments, which they did because they knew I had no good-looking explanation for it, and so it functioned as an easy excuse to discredit me.

you will notice her latest wall post to me pulls it up in response to literally every point I made. she's not actually backing up her viewpoint here; she's just using it over and over again as a reason to discredit potential arguments for him being town

in short, I think mollie is BS'ing here. and the best way to pressure this is to actually force her to explain further why she's pushing MS as scum. but she instead goes "nup, lol MS lied" and "nup, I've explained it already" every time she's asked.

This focus on his votes is really survivalist and weird. He's not even using it to make comments on the people voting him, it's all about the votes. Also, the post almost acknowledges the lack of content...ugh. Is this pinging for anyone else?

yes

@White night, Do you see scum mollie if MS is scum? Or more likely if MS town?

they're likely not both scum

full disclosure, I likely wouldn't give that much of a shit about defending MS here if the way mollie wasn't pushing him wasn't this fucking awful

bah.

[White Night Imagination]

i'm pretty ok with rolling over and lynching MS on one condition: when he flips town, we flashlynch the fuck out of mollie tomorrow with no second thoughts

*if* he flips scum, i'm open to suggestions on what i should have to do. although keep in mind i'm not the only one in this slot so don't suggest anything too unreasonable!

[White Night Imagination]

also, for people scum reading Boo, Boo is likely not scum with MS

her read on MS looked opportunistic - as if she was scum reading him bc she thought she could get away with lynching him later. especially the bit about MS/elusive being partners, which felt more like bullshit she was pushing in order to go with the flow despite there being no logical reason for it

[White Night Imagination]

POST

also, believe it or not, I agree with just about everything here. this is actually a fairly good explanation of why a lot of mollie is posting about MS is just bullshit smoke and mirrors.

[White Night Imagination]

WNI - I think a lot of the you v mollie is frustration at not being understood. The defense of the replace out seemed really odd and forced to me, but it's happened in a few games recently where someone has defended something I see as scummy and given as 'just because' reason for it.

If some of your defense is prompted by mollie (and I kinda like the honesty), would you have a reason to scum-read MS?

I disagree that it's frustration at not being understood. like, look at the interaction with Grib earlier, which basically went like this (updated):

mollie: "MS is obvscum!"
Grib: "walk me through *why* he's obvscum"
mollie: "I'm not going to bc he's obvscum!"
Grib: "... yes, walk me through *why* he's obvscum"
mollie: "I'm not going to bc he's obvscum!"

it's not frustration about being misunderstood bc there is literally nothing there to understand in the first place. as I said, the only logical explanation she gave so far was the thing with MS replacing out (which I don't find compelling even *if* it's not just something she's latching onto in order to have an easy angle to push); there is still none with all of her other points.

Also, do you think ms v mollie (via you) is anti-town? 'Coz, like Grib, I can kinda see the advantage of lynching ms just to shut that down...

p-edit, you kinda addressed some of these. Also, 'coz I've forgotten, which one of you uses punctuation properly?

yep. that is kind of why I'm willing to lynch him if people agree to actually deconstruct mollie's push on him tomorrow and realize there's nothing to it

also, proper punctuation = Brian Skies, nocaps = pieguyn. every post in this entire game has actually been pieguyn. Brian isn't here

[White Night Imagination]

If some of your defense is prompted by mollie (and I kinda like the honesty), would you have a reason to scum-read MS?

o, and I'm not sure what you mean by this

[White Night Imagination]

In general any sort of AtE disgusts me and is like turn off central. So I almost want to spite both and lynch someone else.

/support

except the turnoff for me is "people blindly trusting other people and their reads without any actual reasoning involved". you have no idea how much what mollie/ika/MS are doing make me want to punch them in the face regardless of what their alignment here actually is

I'm still up for a Boo lynch - and her flipping scum would at the least make it obvious MS is town here. what do you make of ZZZX? I fucking hated his latest post, more or less bc it's yet another easy throwaway angle and doesn't consider the motivation behind what I'm actually doing.

oh holy fuck

[White Night Imagination]

huh Boo is at L-3 still

book it

[White Night Imagination]

mostly because the other head of the hydra, Froggy, seems rational and calm.

actually, I don't really see this. fro9's posts felt more like he was just trying to search for reasons to call MS scum and fitting evidence to the conclusion. and outside of that I don't remember him accomplishing much

maybe it's just me, though

[White Night Imagination]

pieguyn, I'm looking at the Taylor Swift game right now (viewtopic.php?p=6698525&user_select[]=23663#p6698525). You and MS were pretty on point with reads there. MS doesn't post as much as you do but his reads posts is pretty excellent when he does as he nails three scum right away. The ISO is very calm and controlled though, no crazy emotional outbursts.

So are you basing your defense of him one knowing him well? Can you link to games where as town he's had emotional breakdowns?

yeah, I know MS well. usually he gets more emotional the more invested he gets in games. his immediate reaction to mollie/Yukari at first pinged bc it looked over the top, but this was before I read mollie - after I reread her, though, I saw she really did not have any sort of good reason for scum reading him here, and that this was the case ever since the beginning of the game (her first post where she mentions him she claims he has "yet to make a correct statement about their history", without explaining which statements were incorrect or why they were incorrect, or why MS had to be scum for it as opposed to town misinterpreting or misremembering something). keep in mind, this is MOLLIE, someone he's familiar with and who is familiar with him, pushing this. so I absolutely buy that he saw mollie pushing him for shit reasons and then saw Yukari pushing him for similarly shit reasons and saw the "writing on the wall", so to speak. this is even more so the case for *reasons* which I can not elaborate on.

now that mollie is essentially saying that she'll blacklist him if he's town here, and continuing to push him over shit reasons, it's even worse. here someone is who he usually loves playing with and they're 1. claiming he'd do at least one thing that is dishonorable (throwing their town game to support their scum game and lying about listmod actions), 2. threatening to blacklist him, and so forth. it completely makes sense that he would get hurt on a personal level by something like that and respond emotionally to it.

there aren't really any games of his that look similar to this. this is a very unusual circumstance and not something that's ever happened before - I'm going off what I know of his play in order to make a judgement call here. there is this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=25044

while he didn't have a "breakdown" to the extent he had here, or in the same way as he did here, he got really emotional in this game bc he had a town read on Bulbazak (it was a publicly announced bastard game, Bulba was his mason partner) and had to defend it to the death against practically the entire game pushing Bulba as scum. 2656 (iso #628) immediately comes to mind and is the post I always remember when I think MS can get emotional as town, but this also came after basically the entire game of them constantly repeating Bulba was town and appealing to other ppl to get votes off him. from an in-game POV, it was obvious he was extremely invested in the read here and was posting emotionally for the duration of it. while I didn't remember this post specific OTOH, there's also 2297 (iso #515); you can pretty obviously see he's frustrated here

I realize this is really shit for meta'ing bc it's difficult to get a feel for it unless you actually see it. it's more about the general flow of the game as opposed to any specific posts. plus it was a hydra (and it's difficult to tell MS/om posts apart unless you're familiar with how MS/om write; iirc om usually posted in all lowercase). I apologize for this but it's really the best example I can think of and the only completed game where I remember him having a breakdown as town.

Taylor Swift is a weird game bc the majority of the posts were me (the majority of posts - pretty much everything on D1 sans a few posts was me, then everything on D2 forward was him although it's only a few posts again) and both of us had flaked at the end, so he didn't really do much. he wasn't invested in that game, plus that was a really easy going and generally not-frustrating game, so I would not have expected him to get frustrated there under any circumstances.

the game where MS/mollie hydra'd is almost certainly this, unless they hydra'd in a different game and I wasn't aware of it (bonus points for me being the mod \o/):

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=23595

I'm not sure how helpful this will be bc it's really not clear "this is where he did this before" and it's more about the general mindset/range of behaviors I'd expect from him. but I hope it at least makes sense - he is capable of getting emotional/invested in games to the point of breaking down out of frustration, and while it didn't look similar to here, there are contextual reasons that make me think the way he acted here makes sense.

[White Night Imagination]

oh btw, I don't mean to inject any more drama into this game, but I feel you all should be aware of this in advance so that you don't get blindsided by even more drama if/when it happens

I just checked the replacement list in the first post and, depending on how I feel, I will likely just ignore everything Tere posts if she replaces into this game. this is primarily because I absolutely detest her attitude. (hypothetically, if she had signed up before I did, I likely would not have joined the game.)

[White Night Imagination]

If I read this correct then you do tell that they used shit reasons to push metal,

Why did you scum read me when i said they were using shit reasons however? This is something I wana know.

I'm not sure if I'm reading this right so plz clarify if I'm not. Yukari's reasons for pushing MS were bad, but I didn't think it was scummy - I got the impression they legitimately believed most of what they were saying, or just wouldn't think to fake some of it as scum (the bit about the setup in particular comes to mind bc if they were scum they'd know it was just a huge load of bullshit and would likely not make them look good or convince anyone, on the other hand it makes more sense if they were just extremely misguided town).

with mollie's reasons, on the other hand, it's shit bc all of her "reasoning" for MS being scum is pointless noise that has nothing to do with *why* MS's play here is scummy. it's all stuff like "lol, MS is throwing his town meta if he's town here" and "lol, why is it so hard to lynch obvscum on this site". and when she *does* provide reasoning, it's all noise that either isn't scummy or doesn't relate to what MS is doing in the game. as I've been saying the whole time, the only reasoning she's given has been the part about MS replacing out - which is so fakeable it's not funny

I think the way you were pushing Yukari is scummy bc you just called their post "full of" misreps and then only cited one, which wasn't really a misrep. and when they pointed this out and asked you what other misreps you saw, you didn't answer it. it felt like you were just using "misrep" as a throwaway excuse here.

I dont believe my posts are throw aways, they are short and direct to the point, saying points that other express later after me in worthless walls while i give you the cold hard truth. I hate writing walls unless there is a gain from them. Walls are bullshit 70% of the time..

most of your "short and direct to the point" posts fail to take into account the motivation behind what people are doing and are instead generally weak reasons for people being scum

the post re: me I found scummy for this reason- scum-me has nothing to gain by saying something along the lines of "if MS flips town flashlynch mollie tomorrow". I'm pretty fucking sure I'd be able to ride the town cred I'd get on MS' townflip to lead a lynch on her the next day as scum here without needing to make a statement like that (and I literally would not care whatsoever about ika defending her here bc he has no reasoning behind it and given the toxicity of this game state no one would listen to him anyway). and I made that statement because I'm pretty fucking sure if mollie is scum here she'd be able to escape the lynch again tomorrow, given she's doing a pretty good job of BS'ing her way out of it so far, and I don't want to allow that to happen

this isn't to say I'm town for it or that you should have read it as town, just that kind of statement is null; but you didn't stop to think through this. it felt more like you just thought "lining up lynches = scummy" would be a good angle to push to look like you were doing something and pushed it without caring that's not actually what I'm doing here

[White Night Imagination]

I will say I at least didn't mind the question in 653, though.

[White Night Imagination]

I 100% agree that wni's awkward chainsaw defense makes him most likely scum regardless of what metal flips. I think he is a likely partner for that chainsaw defense and his poopooing away my earlier points on metal

(note he never actually refuted them, just that I never had any in the first place)

when his push on me is such a stretch it looks like advanced bikram yoga. soyeah, I think wni is scum too. pie is usually much better than this.

This is a blatant lie. I refuted basically all of her points in 583, which she did not adequately address (her next post was just her pulling up MS' "replace out" issue over and over again and did not address what I was actually saying).

She is blatantly acting here. She is doing this because she *knows* her "arguments" on MS don't hold any water, yet she's trying to push them anyway. Therefore she has to constantly play up the idea that "I haven't refuted any of her points" - when I clearly have - in the hope that people accept it as truth without cross-referencing it. She's not backing off and admitting she doesn't have any ground to stand on because she doesn't care about sorting MS here; she wants to push MS/me as scum and is making the evidence fit the conclusion and she'll look like obvscum if she backs down at this point.

This is highly disingenuous and likely scum.

the 1 thing in his favour is yukari's 180 on him which is downright weird. cos yukari never really explained it. and I did like the putting you in his town pile cos was my initial reaction to your posts you are throwing off newb tells like mad and it seems to me that if your were scum your team wld be offering more guidance.

anyway I am shelving it for the mo.

This response is very interesting.

i'm pretty ok with rolling over and lynching MS on one condition: when he flips town, we flashlynch the fuck out of mollie tomorrow with no second thoughts

*if* he flips scum, i'm open to suggestions on what i should have to do. although keep in mind i'm not the only one in this slot so don't suggest anything too unreasonable!

In general any sort of AtE disgusts me and is like turn off central. So I almost want to spite both and lynch someone else.

/support

except the turnoff for me is "people blindly trusting other people and their reads without any actual reasoning involved". you have no idea how much what mollie/ika/MS are doing make me want to punch them in the face regardless of what their alignment here actually is

mollie is pushing MS as scum. She is then faced with actual repercussions on a MS town flip. Rather than actually having conviction to lynch MS here, what does she do? She awkwardly attempts to back off in response to said repercussions.

And what did she do next?

I 100% agree that wni's awkward chainsaw defense makes him most likely scum regardless of what metal flips. I think he is a likely partner for that chainsaw defense and his poopooing away my earlier points on metal (note he never actually refuted them, just that I never had any in the first place) when his push on me is such a stretch it looks like advanced bikram yoga. soyeah, I think wni is scum too. pie is usually much better than this.

Once she sees that the possibility of me being scum even *if* MS flips town here is gaining support, she stops caring, comes out full force again, and jumps right along with it so that she has a way out of it after MS flips town - namely, pushing me as scum instead. Note, she doesn't actually stop to consider at any point *why* me-scum would do this if MS is town. There are potential explanations, but nothing she's posted indicates she's considering them, it's just "lol chainsaw" without explaining why it's scummy or refuting my arguments. NOTICE ANY SIMILARITY IN WHAT SHE'S DOING TO MS?

When MS flips town, molliefrog needs to burn a fucking fiery death. (And I really don't give a shit if you think I'm "lining up lynches" here, when I've explained why I'm doing this already - if you think this is the case, actually refute my points.)

[White Night Imagination]

I don't understand how people can't see this shit.

[White Night Imagination]

WNI, what prompted you to reread Frogmollie as discussed in post 370? Also, how should ZZZX have read MS/Yukari given recent notion that Yukari 'played it scummy on purpose' and that you find that notion plausible and so forth?

no particular reason; I was unsure about the entire MS shitstorm that was going on and wanted to solidify my reads there. mollie in particular jumped out bc I had vague gut-town vibes at that point, but no substantial read.

it's not about how ZZZX "should" have read MS/Yukari as opposed to what his actual argument was. if someone makes a push on player Y with bad logic, then this is more likely coming from scum regardless of player Y's actions or how likely player Y is to be scum. that said, I didn't really mind his explanation.

Actually elusive, Metal Sonic, White Night Imagination, and ZZZX all get +3 suspicion points just for being on that wagon. Despite our slight scum read of boo, our reason wasn't to lynch but maybe pressure into talking upon their return. Every1 else on wagon gets suspicion due to the lynch seeming way too easy.

if you agree that it's better to sort out MS tomorrow, Bookitty is the best shot at ensuring MS doesn't get lynched today

this is the primary reason I'm voting there, although it helps that Boo is a slight scum read for me - although I would vote on pretty much any counterwagon to MS at this point

[White Night Imagination]

the problem with this game is that there's a bunch of people who are blindly trusting mollie for no discernible reason despite all logic clearly pointing to her being scum. and they don't seem to give a shit about reevaluating in spite of evidence that would clearly indicate as such

ika should shut the fuck up tomorrow and at the very least quit defending her. I'd like Boo/Plum to at least explain *why* they have a town read on her and definitely for Plum to quit fucking discrediting everything I'm writing as "lining up lynches" - because that's honestly a load of shit regardless of what her alignment here actually is

[White Night Imagination]

TOWN (S->W): ika, elusive, MS, singer, Yukari <gap> Grib, hydrangea?

{bella, Plum, ZZZX, Boo, mollie}

if I had a dayvig I'd make the above group of players ^ all die a fiery death. outside of mollie I don't have strong thoughts on who, specifically, is scum (Boo would still be my second scum read, outside of that, meh), but since whoever is town among them has a secret scum win con, they die with the rest of them

bella doing fuck all recently worries me. I need to check if this is site-wide or specific to this game.

[White Night Imagination]

also, I would like to know if fro9 has literally anything to say that isn't related to anything Yukari/MS did

while there are far stronger reasons for them being scum, one thing that I'm taking as a weak scum tell here is that fro9's focus has been entirely on Yukari and MS did with no reads elsewhere - it feels like he just wants to pop in time to time to comment on the main target rather than proactively providing content

[White Night Imagination]

bella doing fuck all recently worries me. I need to check if this is site-wide or specific to this game.

yeah...... definitely not site-wide

hm.

[White Night Imagination]

k

we're lynching Boo today

[White Night Imagination]

you're aware that I literally just gave 2 reasons on this same page for way she's pushed this is, indeed, scummy, correct? (and that this is not the only reason I've laid out for them being scum - my reasons have "materialized" pretty steadily over the course of the game)

like, holy shit.

p-edit: @Boo

[White Night Imagination]

You tell me one way this differs from Mollie-town apart from the friendly Froggie. Just one. Because this is the her I've seen as town OVER and OVER, including when she fought with me for about five-six pages on first meeting.

mollie-town actually fucking scumhunts

mollie-town actually has reads that have more depth and thought than "X is scum, and Y is scum for defending them, but might also be scum anyway if they're town for WK'ing them"

but if we're going to talk meta, I actually think what she's doing here is a fucking carbon copy of what she did to zmuffinman in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=37614

[White Night Imagination]

no, you didn't. your first point was that metal was sheeping ika in rvs when ika was clearly wanting to move the game out of rvs. then metal sheeped ika a second time still coughing up "cos its ika!" for doing so when the game was quite CLEARLY out of rvs and the awkward clearance of metal for "rvs sheeping is not a scumtell" is not applicable in the first place. I thought i pointed this out. I am pretty sure I did. no lie actually took place cos you strawmanned my argument.

this is nothing more than a semantic argument

even if it was "out of RVS", that would not change the fact that MS pretty fucking obviously wasn't taking it seriously

I am not acting. I have pointed out as to why metal was scum and you poopooed them away. his first few questions were innocuous and there were a couple of players trying to move the game out of rvs for various reasons. I said he was asking these type of questions in lieu of actual scumhunting and the only person who addressed this was plum. I mean there is no genuine argument when you fail to address the original points in the first place within the contextual timeframe that it happened. we were out of rvs. metal was still sheeping ika. so the defense that metal was doing it in rvs is where the lie is actually lies hehe.

^

even if his first questions were innocuous, it's not scummy. it is equally likely to come from town who just want to have fun early game. and regardless, I think what he did since then has been pretty fucking controversial - so it's as I said before. you think MS started off trying to appease everyone, thinking this would work for ... ??? ... and then changed his strategy for ... why ... ?

nope. that is me waffling for a minute and wondering if I am wrong about metal. "shelving it" means I am going to start looking elsewhere to sink my teeth into in case I am wrong. I just reeeeeeaaally don't think I am. too many things about metal do not add up.

yes, it is somewhat of a he-said she-said and not something I'd expect a refutation for, but it is compelling reason to think that your actions here were aimed more to fit the convenience of the situation

cos I feel like if metal flipped town then the town cred that wld be gained wld be obvs? like wking is a thing.

yes, and you don't stop to consider that...... I might miraculously have figured it out via my scum hunting ability?!?!

the way you did it feels more like you're posturing to discredit me rather than sorting my alignment. it was just "WNI's chainsaw of MS is off" and that was all there was to it.

---

I don't particularly care about walling with you when you still haven't addressed why you claimed I supposedly "never" tried to deconstruct your arguments, when I obviously did.

[White Night Imagination]

and I don't see how it shld be obvs that metal was doing nothing but sheeping ika outside of rvs which you insist that he was sheeping ika in rvs when that isn't what happened. like that was stage 1 which I tried to address with you but you didn't so the breakdown of communication started there. if you address this mebbe we can get somewhere cos any others until you correct the premise from which you are trying to spin from is incorrect cos what you call a refutation and what I call a strawman is pretty incompatible. so how about you address the point that metal was sheeping ika outside of rvs and asking innocuous questions in lieu of scumhunting, if you *happen* to be town cld you plz do this for me? then we can move on to point 2!

go reread what happened if you need to.

er....... except this is pretty blatantly not how it works?

your statement that all my other arguments follow from MS "sheeping ika in RVS" is, put bluntly, false.

Reading that.

for a more specific explanation of what I'm getting at, since I just linked it with no explanation:

mollie essentially pushed zmuffin all game without any reasoning behind it. and she wrote a lot of words and made a lot of noise about it, but when you condensed what her reasoning actually was, there was hardly anything to it - and zmuffin correctly called her out for this and eventually got her lynched. she basically did what she did here in that there was a fuckton of ATE, stroking ppl's egos, and empty statements with no backing behind them (and then constantly dodging it when she gets called out for it).

[White Night Imagination]

going out for a bit to get lunch. I'll answer questions/posts directed to me once I get back.

[White Night Imagination]

see when confronted with a genuine refute to what you were originally presenting you poo poo it away and call it "a semantics argument" when I keep trying to say look at the timing and the context. and you wonder why I think you are scum.

the fact that it was out of rvs nullifies your refutation cos your whole basis is that my point is shitty cos IT WAS IN RVS when I am saying it is demonstrably not the case. I keep trying to point this out and you keep dismissing it. we cannot get to point 2 unless you can actually address my point instead of poopooing it away. of the 4? games I have played with you I know 3 of them we were both town in and kept putting scum in your town category for really dumb reasons. we lost them all. muffina in touhou, desp in gm's game and sakura/nacho in touhou2. I am trying to appeal to you that if you are town, you systemically try to correct some of your weird leanings which I think are just WRONG.

if you are town I wld love to see the TOWN!YOU freaking reevaluate cos you are spinning from the wrong axis. if it takes our death in order for you to do this so be it, we will flip town and then you will be forced to do so anyway which will make your head spin.

Let me fucking spell this out, because you're being deliberately dense about this.

My point was not that MS sheeping ika took place in RVS. My point was that

MS was very clearly not being serious when he was "sheeping" ika.

The fact that it took place is RVS is intended as evidence that this is the case, but it is not the main point. You can quite clearly tell the way he was doing it wasn't serious.

So how would he have intended it to earn a town read from ika here? He's not even being serious about it. I'm fairly sure both of us know joke posts are entirely null, and if ika is actually someone who'd town read someone because they sheeped him in RVS, then lol? That's his fault as opposed to any sort of scum plan MS would have came up with here. It is more likely that if he is scum here, he did it because he thinks he would have joked around as town, and so that's what he did - and in this case, it could as easily just be him actually joking around as town. Which makes it a null tell a opposed to anything scum indicative.

Nitpicking over when, specifically, RVS ended, does not do anything to change this and is nothing more than a bullshit semantics argument. And you know this.

I am not saying that all your points stem from metal sheeping ika in rvs, that is what you are saying which isn't what I am saying at all.

Except, yes, it is what you said. You quite explicitly said that, until I explain MS' "sheeping ika outside of RVS", all my other points are invalid. When this is very clearly not how it works.

When you have a bunch of different arguments, you can't just say "I disagree with x, and all of these are wrong for ... *magical reasons* ... until you explain x." And this is essentially what you're doing here.

hint: saying it is a semantics argument clearly isn't doing it for me since somehow me saying that metal was scum for sheeping ika out of rvs when that is what he was doing and you not working from that trajectory sort of still puts us back at point1 which you cannot honestly come up with any answer to.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about responding to you about "point 1".

The way you're going about this feels more like you're deliberately using it as a throwaway excuse to avoid meaningful conversation as opposed to anything else. "MS is town for this reason." "NUP, respond to point 1 and then we'll talk." "Your argument here for MS being scum is incorrect." "NUP, respond to point 1 and then we'll talk." It's as I said before. You can't just claim that my arguments are invalid for *magical reasons* until I respond to that one specific point.

And the thing is, I've explained it several times already (and again in this post). It is not whether it happened "in RVS" or "out of RVS" that happened here; it's the fact that he obviously wasn't serious, and thus that the way he would have been going about "buddying" ika here really would have not been effective to actually buddy him as a result.

But you don't care. You're nitpicking on semantics in order to make it seem like you have a point here.

[White Night Imagination]

Like, the last time I played with MS (the one where we hydra'd), he openly buddied Bookitty in a friendly manner (as opposed to over anything game-relevant) at the start of the game solely because he likes Bookitty and that was all there was to it. And he was town.

And I'm fairly sure you know he buddies up to people he likes just because he likes them. So you pushing it as a reason for him being scum is a load of shit.

[White Night Imagination]

@WNI, interesting that MS decided I 'did fuck all' all my posts were scummy, and then you echo his concerns. If you've got any questions for me, rather than statements, please let me know The mollie/elusive/ms/yukari thing (with you on the side) is difficult to parse and I don't think we're going to get much out of it 'til somebody flips.

However, why is bookitty scum? I'm trying to weigh up two scummy slots, on of whom will give us a lot more information in the flip, so I need persuading here.

admittedly I didn't notice until after MS started claiming you weren't doing anything

after that I took a look through your ISO to take a look at it; it wasn't until then I realized you had outright disappeared the last few days.

Boo is a weak scum read based on a few off notes in what she's done so far. her pushing MS/elusive as a scum team near the start of the game felt more like she was just stretching to find original reasons to go along with the scum read on MS. the way she's claiming mollie is making "good points" when she's really obviously not is also baffling.

the preemptive way she tried to discredit my response to her when talking to me about mollie is also something I don't think I've seen her do as town, or at least not in that way. it came off overly defensive to me. but that's more gut than anything. I kind of liked 713, but by itself I think it's fakeable.

I'm aware you said you were still in the process of figuring it out, but regardless, where are you currently at re: the Boo/MS shitstorm that's going on? incomplete thoughts are fine.

[White Night Imagination]

or "out of RVS" that happened here

*mattered

feck

[White Night Imagination]

Okay, I liked that you addressed that. However, I replaced in on Saturday night over the w/e, so I'm not too bothered about activity. It doesn't help my time-zone is different, 'coz getting involved over night isn't gonna happen. But, noted.

fair enough re: activity.

I have a town read on elu, for a few reasons - in addition to a majority of ppl telling me it's her town game, I've generally liked most of the things she's done over the course of the game. as I alluded to earlier, MS' playstyle is indeed fairly anti-town. I think what he's done this game has been par for the course for him. and I think MS' reads lists this game are standard for him; when he posts a reads list it's usually just names with no reasoning (he just calls people town/scum).

the thing that concerns me about "information" off the MS wagon is that as I said before people like ika (among others) aren't going to give a shit and will just keep pushing her as town anyway -.-

[White Night Imagination]

i honestly have no idea what you're on about for the majority of that post. i could likely write a response to it consisting entirely of quotes

i don't really want to keep writing walls about this when, *if* you are town here, we likely won't get anywhere

although to clarify, as i've already said, i didn't really have him as town when i started defending him. i defended him because the way you were pushing him made no sense and was scummy as fuck.

also,

I find it interesting that you are accusing me of meta pattern matching when I have been saying that it is terrible. cos it isn't what I am doing.

it reminds greatly of how he sucked up to nacho in nightless early game. so not null!

/whistle

[White Night Imagination]

like i'm still trying to read through it to make sure i'm not misinterpreting something and i've explained all of it already

for example, i literally just told you my point was not that MS sheeped ika "in RVS", rather that the way he did it wasn't serious; and you seem to have completely missed or ignored it

[White Night Imagination]

cld you plz with sugar on top answer the yes or no question?

we can go from there!

yeah, I disagree. even if what MS did was buddying, (no offense) I don't really think ika has that much influence over anybody. like, I guess we have Grib following his read on you, but that is an extremely unusual circumstance and not something I'd expect to happen the majority of the time: it's more based on his experience with you as opposed to anything else, and thus he likely would not do anything similar with MS even if he town read him. and even then he had to keep saying over and over he was more than 100% sure this was your town game to get him to follow him on it

what I'm saying is, people aren't just going to follow ika because it's ika; you'll notice elusive and Grib and anyone else I'm missing pay attention to outside arguments the same way anyone else would and reevaluate their reads accordingly when necessary

and even if there *is* some kind of strategic advantage and I'm just not seeing it - I'm about 900% sure that in this case, it isn't what he was doing. this is for reasons I likely will not elaborate on unless it's convenient for me.

[White Night Imagination]

WNI, why haven't you voted Frogmollie or otherwise pursued her? If you're convinced MS is Town and Frogmollie is scum to the point that you can see lynch MS --> speedlynch Frogmollie working out, why haven't you put anything into cutting out the middleman? Yukari even suggested it. You're literally voting Bookitty basically to try to save MS and just nope. This whole bit is part of the reason I'm not trusting you at all here. Not buying Frogmollie scum for now, not interested in justifying it to you either. It doesn't matter. The argument between you two has devolved into something full of negative utility and I don't want to come near it.

because of people like you who don't want to lynch her for *insert shit reason here* and don't give a shit about justifying it

if the entire argument between us is negative utility, why is it surprising I'm not making a bigger deal over it than I am? I don't always try to lynch my top scum read - I sometimes aim for other ppl for strategic reasons (plus as I said I think Boo has a greater than average chance of flipping scum anyway). and I think I've done a pretty good job of pursuing it thus far in that although I didn't try to lynch her I'll have drawn a lot of attention to her *if* I'm right about MS being town here.

[White Night Imagination]

actually, the more I reread that paragraph of 871, the less sense it makes

>calls the mollie fight anti-town
>I've admitted as much in the game thread
>is surprised I'm NOT pursuing it HARDER than I am?

???

saying it's bad that I'm attempting to save a town read is also ???.

[White Night Imagination]

yes

[White Night Imagination]

everything about this lynch screams that it's a fucking town lynch and I have no idea how people don't see this

I am going to throw out a hail mary and say that VT claims on D1 are *significantly* less likely to come from scum than town. Hoopla did some research on this in a past game and - correctly - identified the person claiming VT on D1 as town and we lynched someone else instead (

@MOLLIE,

you were in that game, don't try to act like you didn't see it).

[White Night Imagination]

It is a three player neighborhood. My neighborhood contains ika and White Night Imagination. Hence, this explains my "sheeping ika" RVS comment that mollie was bitching so much about for 30 entire pages.

I thought that ika had light towntelled in the neighborhood, so I was "sheeping ika" during RVS..

confirming this and this is what I had alluded to earlier.

Bellaphant's #857 was pretty good, and she got a bit of townpoints. To push her above plum.

Plum could be town, but her posturing on my wagon makes her also possibly opportunistic scum.

these are both good points that are actually relevant!

holy fucking shit, ppl.

[White Night Imagination]

*if* there's enough support for a mollie lynch, I won't hesitate to move over there

but due to VT claim, I doubt people won't want to lynch you so it's a moot point

/sigh

[White Night Imagination]

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[White Night Imagination]

indeed.

hey, if you vote mollie, she'll be ahead of bookitty

[White Night Imagination]

will post tomorrow; not in a clear state of mind to post right now

[White Night Imagination]

bah.