Mini 1677 - Ori and the Blind Forest Mafia - Forest Revived

[Plum]

/confirm

[Plum]

/confirm

Not at all pleased ZZZX is in the game but PLUM shines like a Silmaril in the darkness. <3

And like a Silmaril I shall burn the impure <3

Obligatory: am annoyed by policy lynch being brought up, even though it's not alignment-indicative - well, no, especially because it isn't. We're not going there because it is void of information. Now that's out of the way.

VOTE: Metal Sonic

Nope nope nope. The 'sheeping ika because he's ika' thing already got asked and ignored once. In combination with

I didn't like singer's mere confirm either. Surely she should have seen the long talk that we have already made.

also, Sheeping ika

VOTE: singer

O rly. When the 'long talk' was mostly you screwing around saying nothing? Sheeping ika twice just because but he doesn't even make it as someone worth saying 'He's a top priority read because if he's Town he'll be great to work with'? Okay.

Preview ninja edit: Yeah I feel totally comfortable with how this is going. Awesome.

[Plum]

@ plum

I think I might like you!

I had just told nick that I was voting him cos of his sucking up to ika and asking pointless questions that lead nowhere in lieu of authentic scumhunting and then there is this aTe of pure gold:

frogger is cute!

mollie i hate your push on me. it is disgusting and your angle makes me feel all sorts of uneasy. you are not town yet.

I am feeling pretty good about this!

Agreed. Largely because of the last sentence. The vague threat of you not earning a townread from him . . . yeah. In contrast, the weird bubbly response to me, where he basically says he'll let Andrius sort it out. Doesn't touch the fact that I voted him or anything. Not sure I'm buying the 'without meaningful interaction' clause that just came up but I guess we'll see.

MS, care to clarify your cryptic statement to WNI?

[Plum]

Have I slipped into some bizarre parallel universe where people take the RQS business at least semi-seriously?

[Plum]

Have I slipped into some bizarre parallel universe where people take the RQS business at least semi-seriously?

I actually liked all of the questions but the first. Did you not? There's not really a point in not humoring the gesture unless you think there's nothing to gain from it, in which case, attack the questions, not the concept.

I guess I'm just used to a site meta that generally regarded such things as dreadfully unfashionable, believing they were at best pieces of null fluff that didn't really further the game (a site meta I agreed with). I'm still not convinced that it's anything particularly helpful, except maybe to Elusive for getting conversational tone stuff that she described. I'd rather answer than not if it's more distracting to enough players for me not to do so.

1. Warmth

. It's the Ŋoldo in me (Andrius, I'm amused that this game's elements roughly correspond to Arda's thematic elements).

2. I've been away a while and frankly I don't know Town vs. scum metas in general

, certainly not well enough to describe. It's nice to have a sense of baseline playstyle so I can avoid misreading things as alignment-indicative that are only playstyle-indicative. I know Andrius as a player, but not as a Town player or scum player particularly.

Andrius - fine, consider me duly informed that ZZZX is someone you feel strongly enough about to pursue this and will keep in mind your presumed strong opinion that he might be a major detriment to the Town regardless of alignment. Now let's do stuff that is related to alignment.

ika's pick on singer was good IMO.

You really think so?

ika

are you literally telling MS off for voting Frogmollie because new player in hydra? Uh, seriously? Even if you're disinclined to actually lynch them today - suggesting that no pressure on them Day 1 is the right course of action? Really? Or is this just in conjunction with your early read on them or whatever?

Preview edits: What Frogmollie is saying to ika just reinforces my feelings about constructive vs. unconstructive uses of meta as a tool. Ugh. Also singer basically asks my question too. That works.

[Plum]

ika - Telling a player that we're basically not lynching Frogmollie no matter what Day 1 in response to his vote - the one vote on them - on page 3 - is telling someone not to pressure, not to not lynch.

Clarifying: I felt sympathetic to what Formollie was saying about MS buddying up to you and stuff surrounding that. Obviously there are some players here who already have a rapport/feel comfortable declaring Town reads on one another pretty quickly based on things - meta or something related to it - that most other players here don't have resources to really see as alignment-indicative. And such things - that Grib's post about two Townreads for a blatant example, but also WNI's forst list of Townreads and your response - are particularly useless to, say, myself. And lack of transparency can make it harder for me to be able to figure out what's just rapport and what looks like scum buddying or the like. But your response specifically about the buddying from MS is sensible enough.

[Plum]

how about this then, do you think anyone here who is going "person is town based on metea" or un specified read list is scum right now? what are your thoughts on players? your also relativly new (to me at least) so we can talk for a bit.

I do have a question that i asked any but i will ask you, do you 2 know each other IRL or something?

The people who are going 'x, y, z Town' or whatever, based on meta more or less (I can't tell, and only specifically thought of your behavior towards MS as meta-directed due to what Frogmollie said, as she seemed to have reason to think so) are actually kinda null to me. Certainly those specific instances with Grib, WNI, and now to a lesser degree (due to discussion) yourself aren't really readable to me, at least at this time. It's not scummy, but it's often opaque. I can tell you it's not helping me get reads on the people making those statements or the people they're making statements about.

But Grib's looking somewhat off. Calling out singer for not probing his opaque game-opening two-Tolwnread call doesn't fit too well. How could she probe if it were calculated buddying, or if it were deliberately left open so Grib could claim Townreads on any two of the three who had yet posted, before Grib came in to make a second post? And even so, the whole point is that scum could use either or both tactics and have plenty of plausible deniability.

WNI makes his statements after all those involved have posted a few times. Clarifies his read on mollie when it comes up. So, meh.

Rearding Andrius, we don't know each other IRL, but we're both Tolkien geeks and we ran Lord of the Rings Mafia together a while back and stuff. Got lots of nostalgia for that.

Preview edit: Ah, singer, Grib. Perfect. You know what? UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grib

Second preview edit, what.

[Plum]

Vote: Metal sonic

Didn't like your Elusive vote.

Explain please.

[Plum]

Vote: Metal sonic

Didn't like your Elusive vote.

Explain please.

Are you his scumbuddy?

That's not an explanation.

[Plum]

Not only that, it's just a bizarre response.

[Plum]

Yukari, could you do me a favor and just explain your MS vote? Thanks.

[Plum]

Yukari, could you do me a favor and just explain your MS vote? Thanks.

We don't think he is really scumhunting, and there are other things we might disclose later. Also, singersigner is leaning town.

Sure. That's your reason for disliking his vote on Elusive, correct? That specifically was the question I was asking. What prompted your vote initially, outside of why you might keep it there.

Plum: what am I?

Can't tell. Slightly scummier than baseline I guess. Not completely sure how to read your first post + reaction to singer currently, still feel it's a little off, but it might just me seeing singer's side in the argument better rather than it actually being super alignment indicative. I'm confused by both you and MS, who independently are people I'm reading as scummier than baseline and then after that fact who both voted Yukari. I'm dumbfounded in general because I can't understand an argument for Yukari currently being readable at all. He's basically ??? on a stick and I'm not sure what to do about it.

Preview edit: Was going to sort out whether I'd rather swap my vote back to MS but if you're interested in this: hi. Yo. So now you have a Townread on Yukari? I have to say that in a weird way that's a little reassuring. At least, the process of interacting with him and the result seems to fit, if that makes sense.

Preview preview edit: Whatever, you still have a process.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MS

[Plum]

Grib - fair, I guess. I tend to go into a vote with something I think might be alignment indicative in the scum direction (or at the very least a nagging feeling) and work from there. I don't usually choose literal ??? where I don't have reason to believe that voting them, as opposed to something else, will help clarify. I can comprehend other approaches, of course, and Yukari might have struck you as a different brand of ??? from what I'm perceiving.

[Plum]

First off, I'll be

V/LA until Monday evening EDT

due to Jewish Sabbath/holiday stuff.

Second. MS, why did you have me as 'leaning Town' (and also, if that's changed, feel free to discuss)?

Third. Not really especially convinced by MS recently. The nameclaim itself is effectively void of information, and I'm not sure yet what to make of his sudden rev up against Yukari or his attempts to be an influence leader when that's just not going to be working out for him. So like. MS is still totally on my table regardless of the upcoming content of my post here.

I will 1v1 you and make sure your scum blood spills all over the ground

Please spare us.

elusive is prob town. I don't have a specific reason for this (although OTOH I found her frustration with mollie town), I'm just willing to trust everyone else's meta assessment of her. that, and I haven't found anything she's done scummy.

So why the hell are you telling us this? Not every read is information. This especially is the opposite of information. Also, why the hell haven't you even voted? Like 100% seriously you have plenty of words and posts but it's all nothing. You have no scumreads? Guess what, you're not doing what you need to do as Town. You're basically not doing anything.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: White Night Imagination

The (on and off) pressure on Hydrangea is also a Good Thing.

MS, just in case this is helpful now or in the future, a good rule of thumb is that there are no such things as Towntells. As with all rules, there are exceptions, but sticking to the rule until you understand why it's a rule before getting confident about making assumptions is a good course of action. Also please stop it with this stuff about your role confirming you. Also you're kinda being inconsistent with that so I'm keeping my eye on that specifically as well.

Not buying Bookitty's conspiracy theory about Frogmollie being targeted in two different ways by hypothetical MS/elusive scum. Really kinda weird and it's definitely not scumhunting, inasmuch as it takes as assumption that the two might be scum and fits that assumption to some data about attacks on Frogmollie instead of, you know, the reverse? Weird, somewhat off, keeping eye on.

Yukari

, why did you decide to do a post-by-post analysis of MS?

MS

, what do you think of people who continued to vote you (or myself, who doesn't particularly want to not vote you) post ori claim?

[Plum]

If you want to convince me, or even if you don't, you'll have to do better than agreeing that you're not doing anything.

[Plum]

That was to WNI, sorry.

[Plum]

Yukari, I was freaking V/LA. That means I literally was not available to post and notified the Mod and everyone else.

Spoiler: For goodness sake

Any future games I might mod will have a rule to the effect that only V/LA requests and replacement requests sent to the Mod via PM will be considered and that any posts to the effect of 'V/LA' or 'Mod, please replace me' in the game thread have no relevance. Seriously. This shit.

On the one hand, I come back to a shitshow. On the other hand, both top wagons, I think, might have potential. I'll try to keep this from being a disaster catchup post.

That was to WNI, sorry.

its fine, anyway while you are here whats your read on the following:

andy, hydra, yukari, ZZZX

At the time? Andy felt slightly Townish but whatever. Hydrangea didn't seem good. I don't love naked readlists and as WNI (!), it seemed a broad consensus sort of list, and that was basically it from her. I think I took a brief look at one or two of her old games just so I understood her basic post style? Then decided that for a few reasons I'd rather focus on WNI right then over Hydrangea of two [players who have posted game-relevant stuff but haven't really done anything but sort of are making an attempt to look like they are maybe]. I'm kinda feeling okay with the way that went from this vantage point (that is, feeling okay about Hydrangea right now - she's been passive and whatever so far, feels honest, but nothing major - I feel less okay with WNI) Yukari - not yet readable. ZZZX, similar.

MS

Spoiler: Every time you've mentioned or interacted with me this game

Hello Plum!

Andrius seems very excited about you being in the game. I don't know you at all, but I hope you are as fun as he says.

I'm going to sort you, of course, but mostly I'll fall back to his read on you.

That's my plan!

MS, care to clarify your cryptic statement to WNI?

No.

on phone now as usual so can't respond to stuff


singer town
Andy town
Ika town
Pieguy town
Elusive town
Grib leaning town
Plum leaning town
Frogging leaning town
Hydrangea null
Bookitty leaning scum
Yukari scum

I am here but I don't think you want to talk to me

Ill talk to you as long as its not about fucking molie. cus ill state right now, you are do drop her untill i sort her myself

how about this, talk to me about andy, yukari, plume, booitty, hydra

if you cast mollie is bad light about trying to lynch you after she unvoted i will move my damn vote back

Andy is Mia. I want to see his comments about all this

Yukari is a scummyscumfuck. I looked at their meta already but I can only post full length on com. Just simply their town play is more like able and confused about who is town or scum. Here they seem like faking confusion about lame stuff like the setup. They also have been doing fuck all the whole game except tunnel on me. No reads in their ISO. In their town games they have townreads. No townreads over here. They are scum basically


Bookitty is my 2nd top scumread. Their 2nd post just hit my scumdar quite bad but I don't know how to explain it. And her recent posts are 0 content so not fantastic.


I like hydra for Sheeping me on yukari so my answer is probably biased so don't ask me. Ps: I think they are town

I agree with plum. I thought that they were partners with you. Was planning to powerlynched them after you flipped scum. Fine.

Unless andrius is scum with plum.

I still think you are scum though :/

Just because you unvoted me does not mean I must townread you!

Tinfoil theory is Andy/plum/bookitty

Just in case. This can be seen when I am dead with spoilers and groan about how I wish I followed this later

My last post in the thread before I went V/LA was #313. Prior to that, you had most recently listed me as 'leaning town'. From after I went V/LA, you first ignored me and only me among a list of five players ika asked you to talk to him about. Then you agreed with your former hard-scumread Yukari, going so far as to claim you were planning on power-lynching me 'after [Yukari] flipped scum'. So. What the fuck

changed

, eh? Also, if people are reading correctly that Yukari was trying some sort of play-scummy-on-purpose gambit, well, guess what? ??? is absolutely the right read at the point I was at for that sort of nonsense so yeah, seriously. Yes, I push my reads, I actively deal with trying to refine early reads, but I'm also not scared to say 'this player is currently unreadable to me and I can't think of a good line of play to make them more readable right this minute'. Just because that pissed me off a little.

Also while we're here,

MS

, what's your read on WNI?

WNI

, what prompted you to reread Frogmollie as discussed in post 370? Also, how should ZZZX have read MS/Yukari given recent notion that Yukari 'played it scummy on purpose' and that you find that notion plausible and so forth?

hi guys

ketching up and i am up to here:

OK,

I am replacing out. Hope this is better for everyone.

Enjoy the game, folks.

Turns out I can't do that

I'm here to stay ._________________.

I asked 5 listmods

holy jesus mary and christ SINGER AND I KNOW MOST OF THE LIST MODS PERSONALLY PRETTY SURE THAT META DID NOT PM 5 LIST MODS AND GOT A RESPONSE WITHIN 10 MINUTES W/O THE LIST MODS TALKING TO ANK FIRST METAL IS LYIG HIS FUCKING ASS OFF ANY1 WHO IS TOWNREADING METAL AFTER THIS IS EITHER SCUM WITH METAL OR A FREAKING IDIOT

Lulz.. duh duuhhhdadededuddh adadedu dedob arkhueeu ehuehheuh

Was not tryin 2 make metal want to leave the game. MS had quite the reaction to just a bit of pressure.

Okay seriously now explain what you actually meant by all of this and why you said this. In words. Lots of nice sensible words.

What I've been trying to figure out is that some of MS vs. Yukari feels fake or theater without actual emotion behind it, which I'm trying to parse through.

Correct. Two sides to the coin: On the one hand, MS claims Ori, then acts like he thinks this confirms him and can use this to push what he wants. When no one treats it that way, he is unfazed. Brings it up at seemingly random intervals. On the other hand, Yukari pulls stuff like I just quoted . . . And then the disengage. Hella weird. Edit: The dumbest possible answer to the question?

@Ankamius

please fix post 531. Metal Sonic listed as voting twice. Thank you!

Don't lynch metal d1 pls, just don't. We will explain why @ dawn of d2. If you think MS = scum then look for his scumbuddy for d1 lynch.

This game is a treat and a goddam disaster.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Metal Sonic

He claims he was going to confirm his slot via shenanigans? He claims Ori as if this clears him as Town then basically doesn't behave as such? Even though he's clearly competent to read that flavor names don't mean anything this game? Everything else? We're going here. He fullclaims. We get this laid out 100% clear as fucking crystal or get it done. I agree with Singer that if he can speed this up by actually discussing this, just as well.

If I never hear the word honeypot again it'll be too soon. Ffs.

If the Bookitty wagoning is actually the product of scum-Bookitty being bussed, I'll be surprised. Like, I don't trust Bookitty here, whatever, but for Bookitty to get to L-2 in the middle of all this takes something going on, I think. More likely than not

something

is up there.

Grib, ika, Frogmollie, maybe singer, probably Elusive Town. So I share a similar list with Mollie. Okay.

Also WNI can stop setting up lynches now; Elusive, please stop buying into that too okay. I know I'm on MS. But frankly I'm suspicious as hell of WNI either way because his chainsaw of MS just doesn't seem right.

**Fixed**

[Plum]

MS, you're at L-1. Further posts from you without fullclaiming will be treated as a scumclaim.

[Plum]

If anyone doesn't believe me that refusing to claim here is a scum tactic, I'm happy to discuss it. The fullclaim is one of the last pieces of leverage MS hypothetically has in the game as scum. Scum don't want to give up that last piece of leverage at L-1 if they think they could possibly survive any longer without giving it up. I've done it as scum. I've seen scum do it and get away with it over my vocal protests. So yeah. He's also effectively refusing to discuss what Singer (whom he's not listing as scum) asked him to re the replace out shenanigans, or even try to discuss why hypothetically he couldn't or shouldn't discuss it.

[Plum]

@Plum: Isn't it possible he's trying to preserve a power role?

I mean, maybe not, since he already claimed Ori, but if MS is town (that's how I'm leaning, if it's not evident) then he might 1. be trying to avoid claiming to either draw the nightkill or to save a power role he wants to use.

If he claims a power role, he gets me lynched, so what's his hesitancy if he's actually scum?

If he's trying to preserve a power role, it's too late for that. It is straight up anti-Town to withhold a claim at L-1. His hesitancy if he's scum is simple: If he claims VT, he's dead. If he claims a power role, he loses his leverage - no longer will it be in his hands, but in the hands of the rest of us to discuss if his role is powerful/confirmable enough to risk not lynching him in the face of his scumminess. Also, in the immortal words of DGB, "Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity."

[Plum]

Bookitty, if you disagree with me on the theory, then whatever. I'll say that I've had multiple experiences with scum refusing to claim at L-1, including on Day 1.

If you think you're more expendable than MS because he claimed Ori and doesn't want to fullclaim now, I don't know what to tell you. Except to reiterate that flavor is irrelevant, so. You should probably ask why he's not complying with Singer's request to more fully discuss what the replace out shenanigans were about and also not trying to explain why hypothetically he couldn't do so.

[Plum]

Frogmollie - my question was to Yukari, sorry. I processed the gist of what MS said and you responded. Yukari said things that were nearly unparsable that I wanted parsed if he could.

Singer - my bad, I misread who was asking for what when. I will admit I'm curious what benign act 'Y' was that he says would have been permissible but he didn't care for or whatever. That could be something he could hypothetically do

and

he suggests he'd be widely read as Town if he did either (? or maybe only if he did both). So.

What MS is trying to say about his Ori claim confirming him is bad. I'll stop short of finishing that with 'and he should feel bad' because I don't like telling people what to think, but oh, I want to.

WNI, why haven't you voted Frogmollie or otherwise pursued her? If you're convinced MS is Town and Frogmollie is scum to the point that you can see lynch MS --> speedlynch Frogmollie working out, why haven't you put anything into cutting out the middleman? Yukari even suggested it. You're literally voting Bookitty basically to try to save MS and just nope. This whole bit is part of the reason I'm not trusting you at all here. Not buying Frogmollie scum for now, not interested in justifying it to you either. It doesn't matter. The argument between you two has devolved into something full of negative utility and I don't want to come near it.

Not so interested in Yukari's offer. Yukari's Town, sure (were there any reforms about trust tells in the end, by the way? I know it was brought up in MD a while back). Unless Yukari tells us that he loses all possible utility from whatever this is if MS isn't around tonight, I am not remotely interested.

By the way for posterity keep in mind Hydrangea's weird relationship with the MS wagon and stuff. Seriously. I'll deal with this more in the morning.

Also, Yukari, for the future, don't Slayer's Gambit/honeypot/whatever as Town. Like, ever. I mean, that goes for everyone. Call it a teaching moment.

Preview edit: welp, bye Singer.

[Plum]

Whoever said this game was fubar was right on the money.

If anyone needs me to spell out the numerous ways a Moderator can dissociate flavor names from alignment, go ahead. Same thing with Neighborhoods. It's quite plausible that the setup had some number of nonspecified roles for each alignment, then the ones generated in the Open portion of the semi-open setup, and

then

flavornames were randomized to the roles themselves. Equally, the effective makeup of the Neighborhood could (and in the case I describe, would) be faction-random. I don't yet believe we have any good reason to treat the game in any way but this, after all. If MS is telling the truth, it fits extremely well with assumptions along these lines, inasmuch as he's Ori, the protagonist and player character and claims to be, aside from Neighborhood membership, Vanilla. Also, yes, we have plenty of reason to believe outing flavornames isn't such a huge problem that we should freak out about, okay, moving on.

Yes, VT claims are probably less likely from scum run up. I'm keeping stuff like that in mind. Memorably I myself (well, hydraing with my sister) rode a VT claim at L-1 as scum basically to endgame, so. Lot of complicating factors. MS, I do now appreciate that you weren't at L-1 and I was under the wrong impression. That you did claim fairly promptly when you believed you were at L-1 (and actually were) is noted. And sincerely appreciated. Also, along the lines of what people are asking - if you have to be Town because you're Ori, and WNI can be Town despite being the main antagonist because that character has a redemptive end or whatever, what characters would scum actually

be

?

WNI, I was hooked by the fact that you chose MS Town and thence Frogmollie scum as your cross to die on and that was just a bizarre assessment and line of play to me. To have gone to the point of 'I have such a strong Townread on MS that I'd lynch basically anyone else here to spare him' took the bizarreness to a whole new level. Trying to avoid lynching a Townread is one thing; expressing a prioritization of that over traditional goals in lynching is bizarre to say the least. That's an attitude one doesn't expect to see at all Day 1. Now, the whole Neighborhood thing is a complicating factor that has the potential to illuminate this. It does suggest a reason why your response to the MS wagon and at least some of those who pushed it might be so deviant - because there was hidden information informing it that until the claim no one outside the Neighborhood (and I guess the scumteam if there's scum in the Neighborhood) had access to. The degree to which you were willing to drag the argument with Frogmollie out, both of you repeating the same thing in increasingly shrill tones

without

you even considering lynching her was also bizarre, and kind of remains so to some degree. In any case you invested so much into something in such a way that we expect you have a really strong scumread on Frogmollie corresponding roughly to your really strong Townread on MS (to the degree that you'd be willing to lynch almost anyone else to preserve him), without pursuing such a scumread to its obvious conclusion warranted scrutiny. I'm considering what you're saying about Bookitty mild scumread and other factors (like Neighborhood) in trying to evaluate this.

Pieguy did not check in until after pregame.

Huh. He confirmed in the thread 9+ hours before the game officially started. It might mean nothing, but. Let's just say, noted.

Yukari, try to settle down and chill a bit.

Hydrangea warrants attention. Her reads don't make any sense in context of one another. Like at all.

maybe this is wishful thinking but i think this game will get less grinding once D2 comes around and we have tangible flips to work with. At the moment the problem is it's still all smoke and mirrors till we get something concrete.

You may be scum, you may not be scum, but you're absolutely right.

Also, WHEN we flip town, look for scum in Yukari and/or Metal.

And/or? I mean, right now I'm okay with Yukari, despite the fact that they need remedial mafia theory every other post. And I'll understand remaining suspicious of MS. But. First off. Being at all concerned right now about MS/Yukari scum

together

? Really? Well actually. You have plenty of company. Like Hydrangea and ika??? Uhhh . . .

Hydrangea, why did you initially Townread me? For that matter, your initial scumread of MS and Yukari??? And your read of Frogmollie? And what has changed for any of them since then in terms of how you're reading them and why? Besides something like 'I was scumreading both Yukari and MS but I don't know if they could both be scum and I can't get them both lynched today'.

also Ika if MS flips town are you willing or inclined to consider Mollie as possible scum? cause I think that is a very viable option. I ask because you seem to be hard reading Mollie as town.

Keep coming back to this. Ugh. On the one hand, Hydrangea enters the game with a pretty bland readlist. Then she proceeds to act on it as if it were a static document . . . except this. So Hydrangea, also answer please why your read of Frogmollie sounds like it hinges on the alignment on MS.

Bellaphant, what do you think of MS now post-claim?

ZZZX fine for now actually I guess.

For now not particularly interested in a Bookitty lynch.

I've been ignoring everyone accusing everyone else of aTe and people should stop throwing around the term because it's basically meaningless. Emotional appeal is a tool just like any other and can be used regardless of alignment.

UNVOTE:
Thinking.

[Plum]

Or the Mod randomized roles to flavor names. Seriously. It's far from unheard of, and we already know the game has a randomized semi-Open component. Even if you are Ori and also are Town, doesn't mean that combo was inevitable, as it were, you know.

[Plum]

Yukari is technically correct. Vig is not only an informative role, it's often the very best possible informative role. I don't know when I'll believe anything particular about Yukari's power claims, but I don't think it'll be anytime soon. If he's a Vig, fine. If not, I won't be surprised.

Frogmollie, not sure MS is still my top lynch choice or whether he'll remain a viable wagon. And I have time to consider. But I'll say this, I'd definitely lynch MS over you at this point.

MS, if there are no real baddies in the source story besides one who does good in the end and whom you're writing off as Town

because of

, not despite flavor, why are you surprised that the traditional sample VT PM isn't a baddie and is Town?

[Plum]

MS, if there are no real baddies in the source story besides one who does good in the end and whom you're writing off as Town because of, not despite flavor, why are you surprised that the traditional sample VT PM isn't a baddie and is Town?

What do you mean by that? I don't understand.

My theory is that the scum's flavor are side characters that nobody remembers.

Is there something that I'm not being clear about?

You were like 'if flavor doesn't matter, why does the VT PM correspond to a good character'? But if none of the characters are real baddies, how could it be otherwise?

Also your so-called theory sucks and you should try to accept that.

[Plum]

Haha, I've made games that have randomized character names going on, that have scumteams that conform to alignments that aren't present in the source material, whatever you like, it's been done before. I trust the Mod's word that flavor is irrelevant over you repeating over and over that you're confirmed Town. Which you aren't.

[Plum]

Haha, I've made games that have randomized character names going on, that have scumteams that conform to alignments that aren't present in the source material, whatever you like, it's been done before. I trust the Mod's word that flavor is irrelevant over you repeating over and over that you're confirmed Town. Which you aren't.

Fine, I'm not actually confirmed town. But my role PM says so.


Anyway, why do you refuse to vote frogmollie? What exactly makes you think that slot is town?

They've got more going for them than you do. And I don't need to lay out a Townread on someone to justify not voting them.

[Plum]

Then explain it.

Because right now there is just "mollie is town because she looks town"

"sonic is scum because mollie says so"


your adamant refusal to vote mollie is unfounded and not logical in the slightest.

what makes you townread them? have they been scumhunting, giving reads, contributing to the gamestate...?

I'm adamant in my refusal to not vote a whole lot of players, if it comes down to it. Ika, Grib, Elusive, ZZZX are all people I wouldn't consider voting for except to prevent a No Lynch as things currently stand. You're not trying to make an ultimatum about me explaining a Townread on any of them. You never answered what changed between your initial Townread of me and saying you thought I was so scummy you wanted to powerlynch me after Yukari. Which happened while I was still V/LA. That seems a lot more salient, but who cares?

You're scum for a lot of reasons. Sadly you're the sort right now who's basically scum regardless of alignment. If you are Town, you've poisoned the game several times in succession for no fucking reason and are maintaining an attitude that is counterproductive at best. If you're not Town, you're doing a great job sowing confusion, dissent, and generally contributing to the Mist.

Preview edit re Yukari: Maybe. Or maybe Yukari asked to be killed Night 1 because they thought that asking that, via reverse psychology, would make them less likely to get killed. I'm saying I'm not sure how to apply Occam's Razor regarding them because I don't think they're at all reasonable or sensible. That said, overall the notion that they're scum who don't know how to play it is pretty plausible.

Also I actually think what MS said is fair. The presence of Mafia Bulletproof in the pools suggests that in the fixed, non-Open component of the setup there is some role or factor that would make Mafia Bulletproof a role with actual utility, and the most likely scenario would involve a Vig or something similar. However, I'm trying to consider whether we can make assumptions about how much utility Mafia Bulletproof can be expected to bring to the table for the scumteam vs. Mafia 2-shot Rolecop based on the composition of the pools. The pools with Tracker both have Mafia 2-shot Rolecop in them, and the ones with 2-shot Doctor both have Mafia Bulletproof in them.

[Plum]

The things I'm thinking about aren't things you can blame on Frogmollie either way. And you're still refusing to answer that question.

[Plum]

MS

Spoiler: Every time you've mentioned or interacted with me this game

Hello Plum!

Andrius seems very excited about you being in the game. I don't know you at all, but I hope you are as fun as he says.

I'm going to sort you, of course, but mostly I'll fall back to his read on you.

That's my plan!

MS, care to clarify your cryptic statement to WNI?

No.

on phone now as usual so can't respond to stuff


singer town
Andy town
Ika town
Pieguy town
Elusive town
Grib leaning town
Plum leaning town
Frogging leaning town
Hydrangea null
Bookitty leaning scum
Yukari scum

I am here but I don't think you want to talk to me

Ill talk to you as long as its not about fucking molie. cus ill state right now, you are do drop her untill i sort her myself

how about this, talk to me about andy, yukari, plume, booitty, hydra

if you cast mollie is bad light about trying to lynch you after she unvoted i will move my damn vote back

Andy is Mia. I want to see his comments about all this

Yukari is a scummyscumfuck. I looked at their meta already but I can only post full length on com. Just simply their town play is more like able and confused about who is town or scum. Here they seem like faking confusion about lame stuff like the setup. They also have been doing fuck all the whole game except tunnel on me. No reads in their ISO. In their town games they have townreads. No townreads over here. They are scum basically


Bookitty is my 2nd top scumread. Their 2nd post just hit my scumdar quite bad but I don't know how to explain it. And her recent posts are 0 content so not fantastic.


I like hydra for Sheeping me on yukari so my answer is probably biased so don't ask me. Ps: I think they are town

I agree with plum. I thought that they were partners with you. Was planning to powerlynched them after you flipped scum. Fine.

Unless andrius is scum with plum.

I still think you are scum though :/

Just because you unvoted me does not mean I must townread you!

Tinfoil theory is Andy/plum/bookitty

Just in case. This can be seen when I am dead with spoilers and groan about how I wish I followed this later

My last post in the thread before I went V/LA was #313. Prior to that, you had most recently listed me as 'leaning town'. From after I went V/LA, you first ignored me and only me among a list of five players ika asked you to talk to him about. Then you agreed with your former hard-scumread Yukari that I was scummy, going so far as to claim you were planning on power-lynching me 'after [Yukari] flipped scum'. So. What the fuck

changed

, eh?

You never answered what changed between your initial Townread of me and saying you thought I was so scummy you wanted to powerlynch me after Yukari. Which happened while I was still V/LA. That seems a lot more salient, but who cares?

[Plum]

Uh, dude, I'm not sure I'm buying it.

[Plum]

hey plum

why do you find it so angst that I did not answer a tiny question that you hid at the back of a paragraph that was part of a huge wallpost? which was to explain my scumread on you

yet when mollie ignored grib's extremely large red bold text font question. to explain a scumread on me. you don't call her out?


even if you think that they are town, thats far beyond extreme hypocrisy.

WNI and Frogmollie have been talking past each other for pages and pages. At best, each is entrenched in their view of the situation. They both feel the other hasn't given them a fair shake or hasn't

really

answered their questions, and have often replied to 'why haven't you answered my question' with 'I already have, why haven't you answered mine?' and that sort of thing. One of the questions being large and in red text doesn't change the whole situation. It's just more rhetoric, and I've seen more than enough of it.

[Plum]

@plum, I mentioned a similar reading of the situation to WNI a while ago, and it didn't go down too well. It's frustrating I know, but do you think it's alignment indicative at all?

Meh. I'd rather hear something new and exciting from you.

Frogmollie refers to self as Frogmollie??? What???

[Plum]

You're presuming that Yukari's decisions will make a lick of sense either way.

[Plum]

Roleblock speculation is on the table. Everything else is off. Who's scum, Yukari or Frogmollie? Serious question.

[Plum]

I'm here, I'm here. I feel like I don't have the tools to use what information we have effectively. I feel like someone should know what the deal is with Frogmollie, like seriously, but it's not me and no one seems to have a slam dunk there (except . . . Yukari? Do you? Do you

really

?), which is frustrating. That said, I agree 100% with Grib that it's either that Yukari got Roleblocked or that he's scum. I'm tempted to just go along with what he's doing in response to that. Which would mean lynching Frogmollie.

It's the opposite of what you said, Yukari - Hydrangea defending Frogmollie increases odds of Hydrangea-scum if Frogmollie is Town, not if they're scum.

Mollie, why did you launch into speculah re who you'd have NK'd if you were scum? It's pointless WIFOM - like serious real WIFOM okay I'm using the buzzword for something meaningful here - so why?

personally I am going to look at who is on staying on the edges cos I am pretty sure there will be scum there. scum love 1v1s but scum are often uncertain on how to handle them during the aftermath so tend to hold back a bit to see where town herd mentality will go.

Correct.

And just because a couple of people have mentioned this, Andrius mentioned to me before the game even filled, in response to me saying something about my prior hiatus, that he didn't know how long he himself would be on the site, so I wasn't surprised when he replaced out. Could it have been influenced by his alignment? Possibly, probably had more to do with stuff unrelated to that, so &c.

One thing that strikes me looking back is the Day 1 Bookitty wagon. As it forms, even at four players {Grib, elusive, Metal Sonic, White Night Imagination} I don't think the unflipped there are scum and the flipped are both Town. This was when Bookitty was away V/LA. Still. So I was looking at the Bookitty wagon. Don't really trust Bellaphant via that. Started typing out what was wrong with her trajectory re Bookitty, but now I'm not sure at all. It's weird. Whatever. Basically the whole Bookitty wagon looks like it was Town-driven and either entirely or almost entirely (?) Town. Doesn't make Bookitty scum. But in light of the MS flip and the nature of competing wagons, it means something. Although to refocus on Bellaphant, her unvote and revote on MS seems a little bit sketchy to me. We never see what she processes of the info, which is why she unvotes in the first place . . . eh.

Based on Grib's view of how Yukari/Frogmollie Night stuff played out, at this point I think a Frogmollie lynch would be fine pending any exciting new revelations from Yukari's slot. Bookitty also looks like a good choice just based on wagons from Day 1, but I'll reread her regardless. The other under-the-radar players in due time.

[Plum]

I'm here, I'm here. I feel like I don't have the tools to use what information we have effectively. I feel like someone should know what the deal is with Frogmollie, like seriously, but it's not me and no one seems to have a slam dunk there (except . . . Yukari? Do you? Do you

really

?), which is frustrating. That said, I agree 100% with Grib that it's either that Yukari got Roleblocked or that he's scum. I'm tempted to just go along with what he's doing in response to that. Which would mean lynching Frogmollie.

It's the opposite of what you said, Yukari - Hydrangea defending Frogmollie increases odds of Hydrangea-scum if Frogmollie is Town, not if they're scum.

see, I don't think scum!hydraflower is a particular wonderful premise to operate from when we flip town. cld you unpack your reasons for me as to why this might be the case?

Oh, it's not a premise so much as an illustration to Yukari re his doling out scumpoints, of the fact that I don't think the very fact of Hydrangea's defending you is much of a scumtell if you're scum, and in fact is perhaps less so than if you flip Town (i.e. scum in Hydrangea's position are more likely to defend than attack a Townie in a position like yours). Not that it's a strong scumtell itself. I would not, if you flipped Town, go straight from that to Hydrangea scum, but I would scrutinize her behavior and defense towards you, because it would be pretty relevant.

this is weird cos you have given andy a pass but are looking at bella? also cld you plz elaborate on what that "something" means?

If you mean gave Andrius a pass by mentioning stuff that made me think his replace out was probably null? Mostly null? I'm happy to scrutinize the slot, but I don't think anyone's read is improved by not having the information I put forth when speculating whether the replace-out from Andrius was "weird" or scummy or whatever.

But especially in light of what Grib pointed out, which I agree with, I'm definitely interested in pursuing ZZZX.

VOTE: ZZZX

[Plum]

But especially in light of what Grib pointed out, which I agree with, I'm definitely interested in pursuing ZZZX.

VOTE: ZZZX

The only thing he pointed out was me and X not scum together and PoE.. how does that push you to vote me tho is beyound my understanding.
VOTE: Plum they call dis da great omgus. I wana see you talk w/me about dis so I can dissect you soul uh I mean you true allignment.

I agree with Grib that it's unlikely that all scum were on the MS wagon at the end of Day 1, and you're far and away the scummiest of those who fit that description and are currently alive, the others being dead Town. What's not to get?

I'm here, I'm here. I feel like I don't have the tools to use what information we have effectively. I feel like someone should know what the deal is with Frogmollie, like seriously, but it's not me and no one seems to have a slam dunk there (except . . . Yukari? Do you? Do you

really

?), which is frustrating. That said, I agree 100% with Grib that it's either that Yukari got Roleblocked or that he's scum. I'm tempted to just go along with what he's doing in response to that. Which would mean lynching Frogmollie.

Is it possible Mollie was protected?

I'm going to go with no.

Sorry, I'm not following this: what have I got to do with Boo? I never voted that slot...Also, I unvoted, thought about the claim, realised it didn't change much, and the stuff about being mod-confirmed seemed like a gambit. I did explain that.

You had Bookitty under apparent scrutiny, went back and forth to some degree Day 1 (including asking multiple people to discuss their scumreads on her), listed her as a better target than Frogmollie in the event MS flipped Town and today . . . I'm not sure. You never voted Bookitty, sure, but there was an awful lot of hedging regarding it while you stayed on MS. I'm not sure what to make of it. Still trying to think it through. Maybe it just looks worse at the beginning of your ISO and then by the time I'm finished ctrl-F boo in your ISO I'm not sure whether I was seeing something relevant or not.

Tere, nice to see you. I'm not scum. And, uh, you can go ahead and vote me, I'm nowhere near anything. Or continue to intend to vote me. If you'd like to talk about me or to me about it, that's cool too.

[Plum]

Sorry, I've been away from home yesterday and today. Knew I would have internet access, didn't realize how tired I'd be; in retrospect I should have declared V/LA. Catching up before bed.

[Plum]

@plum, that's fair(ish), but I was trying to figure out whether she was scum, a preferred wagon, or what. As she wasn't really posting, I ended up having to ask more people who'd had 1 on 1 interactions with her. After having a bit of back and forth, I feel better about the slot.

Meh.

Tere, for when you get back, I respect you and your slot but seriously you're not moving the game anywhere by saying I'm obvious scum, posting an intent to vote me, and leaving it at that. You want to dance, I'm cool with that. If not . . . ??? Whether you outright vote me or not, I don't think we're in danger of a flashwagon, so seriously. You're basically a consensus Townread, and opinions on me are decidedly more mixed, so, you know, stuff might happen if we went at it, whether or not what I had to say affected your opinion of me here or whatever. And the game needs stuff happening. We were all excited to start Day 2 with information! Brilliant! Except then we got ambiguous information and there's not only no consensus about going after either Frogmollie or Cho based on that, but also not much initiative now that we've realized that almost no one seems to have a super strong feeling about that.

@plum what do you think of zzzx now that he was pushed to L1 so quickly? What do you think of Bella?

Eh? It doesn't seem like it makes it much less likely that ZZZX is scum, to be honest. Weird wagons can happen all the time. Bella remains more than vaguely shady. Bookitty, whom you ask about at the end of the post, remains considerably more likely to be scum than baseline largely due to (or pinpointable because of) the way the wagons were Day 1. I'll be honest - I do feel like her last post was

relatable

. Like, a lot of hostile and almost-hostile interactions have really burned something out of the game here. And it's true in many respects that the last few pages have been a mix of mostly going with the flow or engaging in interactions that aren't that useful but might feed frustration between players. And that sucks. But to turn the question around: Dragon, what or who do you see in the ZZZX wagon that makes you read it as indicating Town-ZZZX or whatever? Who's the opportunist in the equation?

I'd prefer to lynch ZZZX because I've been badly burned by his laissez-faire playstyle before and I don't want to let it get to LYLO again.

Really? Really? Just because of that?

Bookitty, what did/do you think of the Day 1 wagon on you? Do you have any independent scumreads outside not knowing what to do with the Yukari/Frogmollie stuff?

[Plum]

Okay seriously, me scum coaching Yukari?

[Plum]

Sorry, meant to get to posting earlier before Shabbat, so I'll be quick:

ZZZX, my vote on you had nothing to do with lurking and everything to do with the wagon analysis speculation outlined by Grib shortly before my vote. In fact at the time I must not have been paying much attention, because I thought I was like the third vote on your wagon, not the fourth (I seem to have not remembered Frogmollie was already there). I admit I also thought at that stage it had pressure value, and that if another vote on you brought you forward more it was probably for the better.

Thinking more about the rest.

[Plum]

I'm sorry, I know my recent content has been lacking. I'm going to try to focus and lay out what I can as best I can, without reducing it to commentary about how the gamestate sucks.

@Plum I dont want to be rude but the last time I saw someone use vote pattern analysis he fucked up the whole shit. And since you are voting me because of it you seem to have done the same thing. Also I dont get how you are doing it without any flipped scum. So literally you are using a cheap excuse. Otherwise show your "analysis" and show how it makes me scum. May you? (+ scum points for bullshitty reason)

Like.

All of the scum probably aren't on the MS bandwagon. MS and WKI are townfirmed. elusive is strong town, I'm super town. That leaves Plum and ZZZX ripe for the lynching.

This was something I agreed with. One of the things I keep an eye on are players off a Town lynch, and those on a scum lynch. Especially a Day 1 mislynch, especially one surrounded by controversy and whatever, some scum is probably avoiding actually being on it. I feel like it's a rare game where scum will super commit to a Day 1 mislynch to the point of all pushing it. And yes, the same argument can be applied to me from your perspective or anyone besides me, sure, I get it. I am aware. But from my perspective, this fact alone was enough to make you worth pursuing. Pressuring. Whatever. But I didn't feel The Most Confident about it and I don't feel like I need to justify my vote on such a basis as that. But I don't know. I'm trying to reread, even though everything is about as clear as mud and there are like three or four players all at the same low level of utility and readability over the whole game (like Hydrangea, Bellaphant, dragon unless I can motivate myself to reread Singer any time soon???). You were quite firm on Metal being Town from early on. And it seems like overall the Day 1 Bookitty wagon was highly Town driven, so your vote being there when the Day ended may be

good

, in fact, hell if I know. Maybe I don't know a damn thing anymore. Just call me Jon Snow.

plz do not tell me that you think a 13 player set up wld have a scum bp and a scum roleblocker cos I don't even

But if there were no Vig in the end, it's fine, actually. Some of the possible roles Town can roll are nominally negative or null utility (Miller unless you want to argue Named Townie, which is relevant, VT).

The only reason I would see for scum to block Town-Yukari supposed to shoot at Town-Mollie is not trusting Yukari to do much to make sense and not shoot one of them (???) and/or thinking one or both can be easily dispatched via the Mist. Multiple people have already complained about hating the gamestate.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bookitty

[Plum]

Like.

All of the scum probably aren't on the MS bandwagon. MS and WKI are townfirmed. elusive is strong town, I'm super town. That leaves Plum and ZZZX ripe for the lynching.

To go over this one more time, what Grib was suggesting is the following:

Not all the scum are likely to be found on the MS wagon by the end of Day 1. Probably at least one scum stayed off the MS wagon.

The players not on the MS wagon at the end of Day 1 are: WNI, MS, Elusive, Grib, Plum, ZZZX.

WNI and MS are flipped Town.

Elusive and Grib are probably Town (YMMV I guess???).

Plum and ZZZX deserve scrutiny as (YMMV) the plausible candidates for 'the scum who wasn't on the MS wagon at the end of Day 1'.

-

I personally thought this line of thinking had merit. I still think it does, and am attempting to weigh it with other factors.

[Plum]

plum I can accept that newbs will not understand the importance of resolving the yukari/cho vs us issue but i am having a really hard time accepting the reluctance from you cos you know what happens if this is not resolved.

it shld be between cho and us and really no other lynch is optimal at this point so why are you being useless with your vote.

I wish I were convinced that just one flip in this game could resolve

anything

. And I blame Yukari entirely. I have every reason to believe that whatever your alignment is, you're playing it in a way I and most others would recognize as rational. I have no reason to believe that, whatever Yukari's alignment (I'd say Town if you put a gun to my head, so), they were playing it in a way I or most here would recognize as rational. That said, you question whether it'll ever get cleaned up without lynching at least one of you and Cho? Fair question, I guess, but. Most players aren't convinced it's a 1v1 situation. I'm not, either. So I'm not sure it's a situation that directly worries about being cleaned up that way?

@Plum: Do you feel very engaged in this game? Do you think you're getting a good idea of the ebb and flow and general gamestate now that some of the shrieking hostility has died down?

Saying that there's ebb and flow going on is generous. I'd say I don't know how engaged I feel. The most novel thing going on right now is Tere pushing me. Which is fine, but it mostly consists of Tere going around to other people saying 'reread Plum and see how obvscum she is/tell me why you're not reading her as scum, because you should'. Which, look, I understand Tere has no obligation to structure her play here otherwise and if she thinks it's effective I have no basis for complaint as such, but it's not the sort of push on oneself that very well leads to me being able to do anything productive with it. I could make some speculation as to what Tere means and spend some time going over my votes and opinions and why I said what I said and did what I did. But as it stands, I don't see who would benefit. Only Tere might be interested (might), but I doubt what I have to say at this stage would really change Tere's opinion on me in any way, and to the rest of the players it seems like it would currently be meaningless.

Read on ZZZX: I don't flipping know. In and of himself, rereading? I think I was wrong earlier today, I'd say Town. Maybe bias because I think his reaction to WNI's play Day 1 was relatable to me: I suspected WNI largely on the basis of 'his behavior towards MS and the MS wagon doesn't seem to add up, whatever alignment MS is', until the Neighborhood claims, which somewhat clarified that behavioral path. It was a relationship to MS that didn't make sense except in light of hidden information, so I felt justified that something pinged me not-quite-right-dar. And I'm currently feeling like you, Bookitty, are a decent bet for scum and ZZZX's trajectory regarding you makes sense in context.

What about you, Bookitty? You feeling engaged in the game?

ZZZX, you up for a Bookitty wagon?

[Plum]

once upon a time I used to make real cases against scum. I stopped, because it gave scum tons of ammunition and people went "cases are scummy" and flaked out.

I find your reaction to my very deliberate blandness of my case all the information I require, really. It's a very good scum detector for me.

But carry on wriggling.

Look, it would at least give me something else to talk about. I understand the playstyle choice, and I understand, alas, the confirmation bias going on, okay? I get it. Please go on sucking the fun out of the game for me by harping on how self-satisfied you are with your approach here.

[Plum]

Uh, no. I just don't feel the need to hide my frustration. I'm happy to be honest about when you're bothering me. If this furthers your notion that I'm scum, I accept that. If you don't believe that I'd express this exasperation as Town, I accept that.

[Plum]

Tere: It's nice to hear that you think I'm competent, but I don't see how that's relevant. I can give you a readslist if you want. I guess I come from an era and/or mindset that doesn't value readslists as such. Having reads, yes. Presenting a whole list just because? Kinda meh. But it's a fair thing to ask, and ye shall receive to the best of my ability.

TOWN
{Grib, ika, Tere}
These are the Town people. Part of me wants to say 'any questions?' and part of me wants to be a try-hard so when all is said and done Tere's expectations of me are realistic, whichever direction that shift will be.

Grib's analysis of the MS situation all the way through was honest as fuck, the whole game he's been that way. Everything he did there is something I can 100% relate to the thought and action process. Basically no question in my mind.

ika is Town. If you want me to point to one thing, everything related to the Neighborhood &c., including the early interactions with MS. Anyway. Sane, logical, useful throughout.

Tere/Elusive is Town. At this point I don't even know whether I can say anymore about why the pretty obvTown players are. I'm sorry. I'm pretty firm on all of them.

{Cho, Frogmollie, ZZZX}
This is the part where I feel bad and I say straight out that it'll be so hard to ever convince me to go after Cho because of Yukari's attempted trust tell. I feel awful because it's borderline cheating but I'm not sure if the site rules extend as far as this particular case? Like by the end of Day 1 I was like, maybe Yukari's a Vig, or maybe they're a, you know, real investigative powerrole, or maybe they're none of the freaking above. They are playing everything like a crazy person, and most of it in the way where crazy means not much makes traditional sense. Besides that bloody trust tell. I trust it, amid the swirling sandstorm of Yukari's play, this is something I have little doubt about working with. Also seriously someone should look into Yukari's use of it post game or something. Cho's actually been fine, too, so nothing there has made me doubt that.

I wouldn't expect Frogmollie to lay themselves on the line by pushing a Frogmollie/Yukari 1v1 today if she were scum, given that many people seem okay on the Cho/Yukari slot and not that many people want to drive it as a true 1v1. I might not expect Frogmollie to pursue MS the way they did Day 1 as scum, but somewhat less conviction on this part of it; extreme vocal pushes by scum on Town Day 1 are not unheard of, after all, but still. This is supplemented by reads e.g. Grib and Tere are holding, which I trust and inform this to some extent. At one point today I was willing to seriously consider lynching them, but that was based on trusting Grib's reading of the Yukari/Frogmollie situation. And I think I'd lynch them over Cho if it were a 1v1 choice.

Re ZZZX, Fuck me for rereading and talking myself around on this one, partly because Bookitty wagon speculah >> who wasn't on MS at the end of Day 1 speculah. Partly because, and here we can kill one bird with two stones, a lot of how he was playing Day 1 makes sense. Fits together. Trajectory if you want to use that term. Maybe I'm bad. I'm sorry. I'll apologize for not meeting the competency standards of whoever.

{Hydrangea, dragonspawn, Bellaphant}
Have these players done anything? I don't bleeping think so. But it's like some sort of hellish carnival ride. All things considered, realistically it's unlikely that they're

all

scum, despite the fact that they seem virtually interchangeable in this game! It's fucking bizarre. Coasting? You want to see coasting? I give you these three. Coasting everywhere. Amazing. I'm like trying, in my head, to mentally rank them just so I can say well one is maybe slightly more likely to be scum. And you know what? I just can't. And every time I try there's that stupid part of me in the back of my head saying 'Plum, but the other two also basically did X? It's all ambiguous! It doesn't matter! The game is just populated with this nonsense and you couldn't actually push any of the three indiscriminately anyway! Somewhere in here you're engaging in confirmation bias and you know it! Some of them are nearly Newbies anyway!' That part of me is demoralizing as all hell and you know what, fuck it.

Hydrangea, like I remember very well her start which was like the blandest readslist (so useful!) that mirrored effective consensus and didn't say anything on page like 5 or something. And it just never got better. It got worse. It got dumb. Basically appeared to keep that super early super light readslist in STATIC for much of Day 1, fussing around with this or that flake of irrelevancy and then this gem, Post 711, in which, after some prompting from ika, Hydrangea concedes that MS is scummy, noting that he was her 'second scum read', and skipping down the list there shifts her vote to MS. Just weird. Never a real consideration of how one as scum impacts a read on the other &c. &c. when for a long time MS vs. Yukari was positioned by both parties as a 1v1! It's like she made one set of reads that was acceptable at the beginning of the game and bases everything afterward almost solely on that (with a token 'I can understand Mollie's proposition about scum-MS clearly now)! Arghhhhh. And then follows up with this gem:

also Ika if MS flips town are you willing or inclined to consider Mollie as possible scum? cause I think that is a very viable option. I ask because you seem to be hard reading Mollie as town.

Oh my god you just went from 'I understand Mollie's argument and MS was my second scum read and Yukari's not getting lynched so here we go' to 'let's lynch Mollie if MS is Town' which, seriously, until that point Hydrangea had said the following about Frogmollie:

- Lean Town on Frogmollie
- Frogmollie you say I'm hard to read because Newbish, how can I help you get a read on me
- I disagree with some of Mollie's argument for MS scum
- I now more agree with Mollie's argument for MS scum

So that's out of left field isn't it.

Bellaphant, well, I wish Andrius could have stayed in because him I could probably get something out of, but really who cares. Her take on the MS wagon shortly before the claim seemed similar to mine, but it was summationy rather than thought-processy, so I don't really feel like there's much I can read from that. Maybe that's my problem and I've shifted into summation mode somehow. Nothing here makes me feel like Bellaphant is really Town. It's kinda meh. But in retrospect her content has been slightly stronger than I remembered, but it doesn't really do much for me.

Dragonspawn I'm grateful you asked because I have no read at all, actually, outside of 'this player hasn't done anything has he'. The MS vote is weird and in its way almost feel deliberately contentless, so it's just made hard to contextualize.

Bella - definitly didn't like bella pushing zzzx to L1 so quickly. I also had a ping day 1 when she sheeped my vote and reasoning for voting sonic day one. I had just entered the game and it looks like she was voting him earlier but backed off. It just didn't feel right.

Huh, how about that? How weird. Good thing to note, I think.

@plumYou asked which votes to zzzx seemed opportunistic. I'm not sure that's the right word. Off seems better to me. I'm trying to quantify it but the votes from hydra, you, and bella just feels more off than anything.

Huh again, this reads not scummy.

If I had to, I guess from Towniest to scummiest it would be dragonspawn, Bellaphant, Hydrangea.

{Bookitty}
Is it dumb to say many scumpoints on basis literally of having been the right wagon Day 1? Maybe. But it's not like there's nothing in that. And Bookitty is also skating hard. Except arguably that readslist she just posted? Preemptively giving one before Tere asks for one? And multiple players called her out Day 1 for playing more to her scum meta. I can't be certain how relevant it is, but they both had basically the same take on it. And the Yukari vote was for something so obviously Yukari, calling people out for prods when they were V/LA, totally annoying, I get it, but you think that was really some sort of calculated move on their part? And then there's sort of the clusterfuck of 'MS is scummish but not completely and I'll lean scum on him after a few paragraphs of musing either way/due to Ori claim I'd rather be lynched than MS/the idea that if MS flips Town we should go after Mollie is dumb/Mollie is so Town I'd definitely lynch MS over her, vote MS' - Day 2 dawns - 'I really thought MS would flip scum, Mollie hasn't posted yet, vote Mollie/I didn't realize Day had only started less than 24 hours ago, unvote'.

I just think Boo is the best lynch here and that's it.

SCUM

Anyway, I thought today we'd dawn and that with information I could help drive things positively. Didn't happen. Information state is bizarre and confused. Demoralizing.

I believe Bookitty lynch is best lynch here. Hydrangea

narrowly

slightly less narrowly than I thought before some rereading, as per above, captures the coveted #2 slot. Thank you Tere. One way or another you did help.

[Plum]

Promise we are town.

Oh, and for all you crazy meta readers out there, Yukari-scum NEVER promises to be town unless specifically asked to. So please, play with us and leave MS for us to sort d2. Look for other scum d1 and we will make more sense d2 if we survive the night. Though hopefully we do get nked just so we can go back to newbie game with regular matrix6 setup.

Tired of asking so won't do it again.

Yukari brings this up in passing at least once more. The other stuff you wanted will be coming.

[Plum]

Also STFU with the "why aren't the noobs listening to me" wail at Plum. I'm not a fucking noob and I take exception to that misrep.

Pardon? Where did I ever say or imply such a thing? Like legitimately I have no idea what you're talking about and I don't see where I miswrote something so?

[Plum]

Plum do you think you could have a lot at Singer before she replaced out please? I'd be interested to know your thoughts.

Sure thing. I did reskim her stuff when I was going over dragon's slot yesterday, but I came away with what I basically had before: 'meh, I have mild good feelings that might just be playstyle/personality related' - so it didn't end up being a big factor there. In fact I think her Mafia playstyle/personality is a little like mine as a baseline (?) which is making it kinda harder to read just from that, and she didn't do anything super bold or that lead to anything super bold on the wagons side of things. Anyway, interesting that she noted MS/WNI relationship very early on (though as you would expect, not reading the *right* relationship given hidden information). It might not mean anything, but I kind of think it suggests mildly good things about an actual scumhunting process going on there. I still think her Grib vote early on makes sense, buuuut I don't think that fact indicates much about alignment. Meh. It's like there's next to nothing there that's really deeply alignment indicative to my reading. Her earlyish MS vote (before replace out stuff) looks slightly Town. That's about it.

In all seriousness, how confident are you that the timing of Bookitty's neat and colorful readslist was a Total Coincidence™?

[Plum]

Fair enough. I didn't process that and I'm sorry.

[Plum]

@Frogger

Like you, I thought Grib's point about the wagons was relevant. Super relevant. From early on in my Mafia career I've generally found that pursuing scum on a scum lynch and scum off a Town lynch fruitful. Th latter because a number of things coinciding: Scumteams usually not *all* being on a Town wagon, especially early in the game; scum needing to construct a reason to *not* consider and/or vote the wagoned Townie. I was happy to vote ZZZX on basis of that and the hope that pressuring a slot that wasn't near the top in contribution to that point would be relevant. It was. It came to a point where I reread ZZZX and in context, concluded that he was not that likely scum on basis of wagon distribution Day 1. His voting patterns Day 1 did not suggest opportunism/scum attempting to find a way to avoid being on the MS wagon. Furthermore, I was becoming increasingly convinced that wagon analysis + other stuff suggested that Bookitty was likely to have been a Day 1 wagon on scum and ZZZX-scum made even less sense in that context. So I bloody reconsidered. I reread. I was satisfied.

For goodness sake tell me also what's opportunistic about my Bookitty vote while you're here.

I don't know what you people mean by 'sorting'. Obviously terminology after my time, really, because everyone keeps using the word. Does it mean 'determine a reasonably strong read on a player to be going on with'? Does it mean 'literally determine another player's alignment beyond a doubt, e.g. via lynch'? I've sorted you and Cho for today for the first definition. For the second, I think my response to the first indicates why I'm not interested in a lynch to get the second currently.

For heaven's sake it's possible to deliberately talk past someone. At least the way I use the phrase. Continuing to talk in a 'why haven't you answered my question?'/'I have answered your question, why are you pretending I didn't' for pages and pages was a big bulk of that conversation between Frogmollie and WNI. Was I ruling out either player talking past the other deliberately/continuing the conversation in that vein as scum? No. I was not. Frogmollie had spent pages and pages insisting to WNI she'd explained her scumread on MS. It didn't register to me as some sort of change from that status quo when she had a similar response to Grib questioning along those lines, bolded red though it might have been.

[Plum]

Oh my god. By "Meh" I meant to indicate "yeah, I'm not sure it's alignment indicative, but given where my vote is and the way things are, making that point isn't really new or impressive or helpful, so why don't you &c.?' In fact I never argued that WNI or Frogmollie was scum on basis of *how* the argument was being handled (though I questioned why WNI hadn't pursued a Frogmollie vote or anything given his clear stance and read there). So Bellaphant's comment to me seemed barely relevant. Or, you might say, "meh".

[Plum]

Sometimes I *feel* too bleeping scripted. As either alignment. Whatever. If the game comes to a point where I can't stop the internal voices second guessing what I'm typing at every turn or I can just keyboard mash incoherently, it had better be the first, I guess.

You have yet to sort either of us into the scum or town pile. Just some 'gun to your head' stuff. You use the prase 'whatever your alignment is' about both myself and Chokari slot. That's not sorting.

Do people not recognize 'pretty Town, enough that I don't want to lynch' as a legit category anymore? Like maybe it's just me being ancient, but I feel for myself, despite every frustration about the gamestate, that 3 players I really feel are definitely Town to a really strong degree is actually better than average Day 2 in this size game without a scum flip or other claimed info. My readslist can be basically broken down like this:
{Grib, ika, Tere} - super Town, like the strongest rating
{Frogger, Cho, ZZZX} - probably Town, not currently interested in pursuing as a lynch
{dragonspawn, Bellaphant, Hydrangea} - scummish and/or lurky and/or little to work with and/or nothing Town-seeming to work with. Would definitely consider pursuing Today (though as I said, Hydrangea takes top spot here
(Bookitty} - most likely to be scum

I've sorted you and Cho to the extent that I know I want to lynch neither of you today as things stand. If that doesn't work for you, we're at some sort of impasse.

Oh my god. By "Meh" I meant to indicate "yeah, I'm not sure it's alignment indicative, but given where my vote is and the way things are, making that point isn't really new or impressive or helpful, so why don't you &c.?' In fact I never argued that WNI or Frogmollie was scum on basis of *how* the argument was being handled (though I questioned why WNI hadn't pursued a Frogmollie vote or anything given his clear stance and read there). So Bellaphant's comment to me seemed barely relevant. Or, you might say, "meh".

I mean, Bella was agreeing about WNI and Mollie not seeing eye to eye, and trying to engage you on that and make conversation about it about alignment. And you just brushed her off.

Also, why did you never vote metal. You kept sayinig how scummy he was at end of D1, but you never voted him at end of D1.

If she's saying 'I don't think X is alignment-related' (which she did in the "similar reading of the situation to WNI a while ago") and I'm inclined to agree (and for that matter haven't said otherwise or indicated that I think it

is

alignment-related), what's there to talk about? Like seriously that's a good reason to redirect the conversation to something else that maybe is liable to tell us something alignment-indicative. Including for Bellaphant herself.

As for MS, he got hammered by Yukari before I moved my vote back. I saw no reason to hurry up moving my vote back specifically to hammer him before the point that Yukari actually hammered.

Frogger, why are you getting on Tere's case for having shades of doubt about her scumread on me? For heavens' sake, it's not like she's even moved her vote or made much more than a token musing about Hydrangea as a compromise-type lynch.

Dragon - I was somewhat skeptical of the timing of Bookitty's readslist because Tere, who has been on my case, had recently demanded a readslist of me/seemed to suggest it was scummy that I hadn't given such a thing and/or an equivalent; I thought Bookitty might have made one to avoid Tere being in a position to question why Bookitty had not put forth such a thing. I was incorrect about there being no prompt. It was a mistake, and I apologized. And I did use a snippy tone and I'm sorry on that account, too.

I would like Plum to line out her case on me. So far I have that my wagon was almost entirely town (which seems true) and that I conveniently gave a reads list unprompted (which isn't true). Could you explain more about your read on me, please, Plum?

I apologized for the latter. Twice now. And I touched on this in my own recent readslist, but I'll lay out a more extended edition.

The first one you mention is a big one, I have to admit.

The

big one, perhaps. But I'll do my best to outline the rest.

I do think the beginning of Bookitty's game is a little weird/off/not much going on there. Like the most novel, interesting, and concrete thing she does is suggest that as MS and Elusive are attacking Mollie on different counts and both have also noted some sort of scumread on Bookitty herself thereafter, they may be scumbuddies doing a weird two-pronged attack on Frogmollie. Intensely weird and speculative. Really scumhunting? Uh, maybe?

When Bookitty's back from V/LA, she has a weird post that accomplishes two things besides a few throwaway lines:

1) a few paragraphs of summation on the MS situation, ending with "1. He claimed Ori. I don't want to lynch Ori. 2. His AtE actually seems genuine to me, and 3. His interactions are NOT what I would expect from scum". I'm somewhat skeptical of the couple of paragraphs it took to lay out 'well, MS lied . . . but we don't know why he lied . . . there are tactical reasons to fake a replace out'. It feels like Bookitty wants to make sure no one wonders whether she registered what she's framing as the main argument involved is before she effectively dismisses MS as scum.

2) After all this, her biggest scumread is Yukari for . . . asking for prods on people like her and myself, who were still V/LA, and 'not liking his postings all the way through'. After all that, 700+ pages, that's the one scumread we see, like, at all. And that's the basis.

And most of the rest of Day 1 is light on content. Bookitty continues pursing Yukari in a tepid sort of way, spends plenty of time arguing that this is definitely Town-Mollie, votes MS mostly to avert a potential Mollie wagon.

And Day 2, even after saying the following:

One thing I'm really not liking is the "If so-and-so flips town I'm coming after _____." It's like a threat without a purpose, because OBVIOUSLY when someone flips town we always look at the wagon on that person. I think you're town, for instance, Mollie, and if they manage to lynch you and you flip that way, I could make similar threats. Same with me: if I'm lynched, then the people pushing that are going to look worse too.

But the fact is that scum usually AREN'T the ones initiating wagons on town. They'll push it, sure, but they don't start it in my experience (rarely, I wouldn't say never). So acting like that's alignment indicative is somewhat suspicious to me all on its own.

Bookitty votes Frogmollie right off the bat:

I had really thought that MS would flip scum. The fact that Mollie hasn't weighed in yet is bothering me a lot.

VOTE: Frogging Mollie

@Ika: What do you think Mollie could say at this point? Either she's town who staked everything on a bad read on MS or she's scum. I don't know which, but I will say that this game has tied together people's alignments (MS-Mollie, Yukari-Mollie, even me and you and Mollie) more than any game I've seen lately. I don't know what Mollie could say, which is maybe why she hasn't said anything.

It's amazing to see. If Bookitty thought MS was reasonably Town/a reasonably mediocre lynch but Mollie was superTown/an even worse lynch, why the surprise, and why suggest that there's nothing Mollie could really say at this point? Bookitty never before suggested that MS and Mollie's alignments were closely tied and her behavior to this point wouldn't suggest that, either.

Bookitty recants this vote later and frames it as relating to thinking the thread had been open for a longer time with Mollie refraining from posting, which being more incriminating. But I'm not sure. Maybe Bookitty did think it had been longer than it had - we can treat that as arbitrarily true. But it doesn't fit well with the way she words her stance on Mollie and how it relates to how she treated MS and MS vs. Mollie Day 1. Not at all.

Maybe I'll dissect things like Bookitty Day 2 a little more tomorrow. Need to go to bed now, though.

Notes: It *is* weird as either alignment that Bookitty suggests that she'd rather be lynched than MS due to the claim. I don't really know what to think of that.

[Plum]

Hydrangea, talk about Bookitty?

[Plum]

I said most of what I had to say in the dead topic, so:

Good game everyone.

Mods, make rules about replacing out to prevent abuse, attempted abuse, or faked abuse of replacing out for tactical reasons.

Toxicity breeds toxicity: be aware and try not to feed it. Especially as Town. If you do it tactically as scum, that's your right. But as Town you're almost certainly playing against your win condition.

[Plum]

Also, Metal Sonic, I was right that your setup speculation was wrong and that your insistence on it was BS. The Mod did randomize alignment/power to character name. Ori could have been a Mafia Goon Neighbor in this game. So next time the Mod says that flavor is irrelevant, don't engage in BS speculation that someone has to be Town or scum because of a rolename.

[Plum]

Dude, if you state at the outset that you don't plan on apologizing because you don't think you did anything wrong, what do you really expect? Seriously.

[Plum]

I'm just saying, in general, if you really want a reconciliation, don't start off by saying that you don't plan to apologize and don't think you did anything wrong. Even if you think the other party was more in the wrong, or by far more in the wrong. It's just counterproductive to your stated goal.