Newbie 1633: The Daily Show-A Retrospective - GAME OVER

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hello to all,

I am BlueBloodedToffee (BBT) and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player in this game. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net and hopefully set an example for you to follow. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC

That article is part of our MafiaWiki System. I highly recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean.

There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self-vote. (There are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. It's generally considered bad town play to simply hammer (place the final vote on somebody to cause their lynch) somebody without 'stating intent to hammer' first. This gives the person under threat of being lynched time to claim, if he so chooses, and make their final post(s).
3. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
4. It's a game - have fun.

With that out of the way, let's move onto RVS;

VOTE: ZeroSummer

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Draynth, I think you should consider voting Zero.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because he isn't voting and I would like some pressure applied to the slot to progress the game.

Do you have a reason not to vote the slot?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This ^^^

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, can you vote Zero and ask why he is trying to halt progress of the game?

Let's get a wagon forming and get this game rolling.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, that's L-2.

Anyone else wanna jump on the wagon?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think being voted and being run up is pressure whether it's stated or not. It probably caps the pressure it applies, but there is still pressure.

Yuri, what do YOU think about me trying to get people to vote for Zero?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That would be L-1.

That means nobody else should vote Zero without stating intent to hammer first.

This will allow Zero to claim and state final reads.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Anyone hammers (votes) Zero without stating intent to hammer will be scum claiming and will be speed lynched on Day 2.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, I'm happy with Zero's response.

I also think Honest is a good vote; 31 feels town to me.

VOTE: Honest

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's L-2.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What do you think of Zero now, Draynth?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Anyone planning on stating intent to hammer?

Just to be clear, that is not a vote, but an intent to vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why not?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No-one said anything about hammering.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No need to claim, nobody has stated intent.

You should do the posting more thing though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

His hunt seems genuine.

Sorry, what?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey guys, will give this game a thorough read through tomorrow.

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi everyone! Glad to see the game started. VOTE: zerosummer

Was this a serious vote Mason?

Let's not hammer until the two of us get to say something (or get replaced)

Can you clarify this please Yuri? Who is 'the two of us'?

So, by skimming (because I'm lazy) we have an L-2 because... someone doesn't like RVS's? Is that a legit reason to put someone at L-1? At least we didn't get an intent to hammer (because that would just be hilariously bad).

So, here's my RV (although not actually an RV because his vote was odd and somewhat scummy):

VOTE: Honest Because his avatar is ironic. That's L-1.

Hmm, criticizes wagons based on bad reasons and then votes Honest to put him at L-1. Necargo, what was odd about Honest's vote and why was it scummy?

One post in the whole game so far with no context whatsoever and no actual input to the game? Better reason. I'm not moving my vote until Honest posts and actually puts something into the game.

I am voting because he has posted once this entire game with a naked, contextless, useless post, and has not responded to any of the resulting backlash.

Your reasoning for your vote is very subtly changing. First it was because his vote was 'odd and scummy' and now it's because Honest is not contributing to the thread.

He could flip town. I don't think he would, but he could. I will violently go after anyone who randomly hammers without stating an intent to hammer because random hammering doesn't give the defendant a chance to speak.

And if he flipped scum?

I disagree with the content/ mindset towards RV in 68 but it looks pretty town motivated to me

Can you expand on this? Why is it town motivated?

This post feels scummy, like you have just thrown together a bunch of buzzwords.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also yuriko. But literally I don't even k ow what to look for.

[IC]You're looking for the motivations behind what people post. Why did they post it, what are they trying to do with that post, do their reads make sense, are they genuinely looking for scum or trying to look busy, do you agree with other people's reasoning for their reads, if not why not? These are a few starting points to help you get started.[IC]

However his recent posts look bad. Can't decide if it's newbtown bad or scum bad

What is bad about his recent posting?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Dier, can I get a brief reads list from you please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Yuriko

[BlueBloodedToffee]

1.It had no context, was a naked vote, and had no explanation at the time, which is scummy, at least to me.

OK, so you have stated the same reason in 3 different ways; it was a naked vote. Just like all of these votes;

Spoiler: Naked/RVS votes

vote: BBT

Hello everyone, welcome to the new players, nice to see some familiar names too!

VOTE: MasonP

I knew someone named Mason once.

Hi again BBT and Dierfire!
VOTE: Honest
Because it's ironic if he's scum

Hmmmmmmmmm, sure why not.
VOTE: ZeroSummer

Hi everyone! Glad to see the game started. VOTE: zerosummer

Can you explain why you found Honest's vote scummier than all of these others given the reasons you presented?

The two of us referred to the two people that hadn't post/ were inactive.

I'm sorry, can you clarify which two people you are talking about?

Yuriko

appears to be working through reads. I thought that the questions directed at Zero in 21 and 29 were good. I have very complex feelings about 70: I disagree with its content, and continue to find Necargo suspicious. I disagree with BBT that the post itself was suspicious, however, especially because I cannot easily see the rationale for a Mafia player to say this of a Town player. If Yuriko and Necargo are both Mafia then we should lynch Necargo first anyway.

Look at the wording of Yuri's post, it's a bunch of buzzwords (mindset, motivation, content) thrown together; IMO, the sentence is barely coherent. The rationale for Yuri to say that is to give herself a reason to jump off a wagon that wasn't going anywhere at that time. For context;

I disagree with the content/ mindset towards RV in 68 but it looks pretty town motivated to me

Anyway though, based on what I've read yuriko seems a bit suspicious to me because they haven't posted anything of much use.

Can you vote Yuri then?

@BBT

To my reads in 112 I would add that I liked Lowercase's entrance and didn't get much from DWLee's. Comments?

I would agree with this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The two of us referred to the two people that hadn't post/ were inactive.

I'm sorry, can you clarify which two people you are talking about?

I understand English is not your first language Yuri, that is not my problem with your post though. It's the language you chose to use.

Can you answer the above with specific player names please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There is absolutely no way you could determine that Honest's vote was not RVS.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Will get to this later Today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm bad at English; it doesn't make me scum.

Oh dear, this is super weak. You realise I have just finished a game with you, right? I had no problem understanding any of your posts in that game soo....yeah, that's a scummy excuse.

Lee- Previous slot holder votes ZS to L-1 and bounces. New slot holder comes in, complains about low site posting rate and then doesn't post anymore.

ZS- he was wagoned early on; he responded to the pressure somewhat, then after the wagon dissolved he just vanished. Did he ever finish that reread?

I'd rather not lynch any of these slots; can I get your thoughts on Yuri?

how is my choice of words not related to my language skills? do you think I would deliberately choose (scmmily) "generic" words to arouse attention?

Marklin and Axwell, who haven't posted all along. I didn't want to end d1 without everyone at least saying something. Why choose to ask this now?

Of course not, you chose those words with the intention of looking pro-town. It just doesn't work like that though.

Also, you said 'us' when you were talking about waiting for people to post. Here;

Let's not hammer until the two of us get to say something (or get replaced)

'Us' implies you included yourself in the two people you were talking about. You also followed this on by asking a question; further implying you were talking about yourself.

Can you clear this up for me?

I barely realized that mansonP has already been replaced. his replacement came in, drop a word and then going away. he's cherry-picking people to comment on, saying i'm not of use and conveniently commented on necargo's "RV" which was already much discussed, while not adding anything to it. Even worse, he's gone. As if I would need more reasons to vote him.

vote: dwlee

Yeah, Lowercase mentions lynching one of DW/Zero and you're all over that, huh? This is opportunistic scum, looking for an easy wagon to jump on.

Scum reads:
Yuriko (Doesn't make much contribution and then OMGUS'd me)

Can I interest you in voting for Yuri?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think I disagree Necargo. I think when a vote is accompanied by absolutely no context it's safe to assume that the majority of the time it's a random vote; if there was reasoning it's usually attached to the vote.

What are your thoughts on Yuri?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@bbt:

I don't understand why if you had no problem understanding me last game you would have a problem understanding me this game

And when I said us I meant to say "all of the players" but it was a bad choice of words

I have no problem understanding you; you're trying to insinuate that I do. I'm saying your posting is scummy and your saying it's because English isn't your first language and I'm saying I have played with you before and had no problem understanding you so why would I now?

Your using 'bad English' as reasoning to excuse your scummy posts. Like, how the hell do you mix up 'us' and 'everyone'. Also, you couldn't have been talking about everyone because you implied you were talking about Axwell and Mark...you keep changing your story.

Yuri seriously needs votes.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You have only played with me once and I had an AWFUL game; what experience have you based that comment on?

Are you going to respond to your change in story and clarify it for me please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So, Draynth, how bout that Yuri wagon, huh?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It doesn't matter whether you were right; there is still no way you could have known what his vote was supposed to represent.

Can I get your thoughts on Yuri?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nope, I have no problem with either of the votes on Yuri.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't like your positioning around the Yuri wagon though. Like, 'yeah, I can see where you're all coming from but I just think Yuri is town'. If you can see where we are coming from; how are you coming to a different conclusion?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because you know as well as I do that town flake all the time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You don't see Yuri's inconsistency when explaining her 'us' comment?

PEdit - Why not? I mean, the reasonable activity and their fairly comfortable status in the game makes them unlikely to flake as either alignment, no?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Right, but she says 'us' and then implies later on that she isn't even talking about herself (despite adding a comment into the post as if she was talking about herself) but instead was talking about Axwell and Mark. When I asked where the us came from if she was talking about those two people she responded saying that she meant 'everyone', which again, doesn't make sense because some people were posting.

Hey story consistently changes and then she tries to blame it on bad English and makes an appeasing comment towards myself despite having nothing to base that comment on.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But the 'That said' comment implies she was talking about herself, no? Like, 'let me say something before we hammer, that said, (insert comment here)' looks like she was talking about giving herself the chance to talk and then she adds the comment on.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

As for Yuriko, I agree that her behavior looks pretty scummy. For whatever brownie posts it's worth, I also noticed that her dwlee vote was a transparent attempt to redirect pressure. She could easily be scum; I wouldn't be upset if we lynched her. I'm not willing to commit to it at this point.

Can you expand on this? What did you find scummy about Yuri?

Upon my first read over, the player who has stuck out the most to me in a bad way is YurikoJasmine.
I don't like the sequence at #54 & #60, where she calls Necargo out for putting Honest at L-1 in #54 (never mind the fact she was part of an even earlier L-1 wagon, and didn't say anything about that one), but then waits 4+ hours until posts #60 to attach some flimsy rational and make the vote. This isn't progression of a read, it was testing the air at #54, and then waiting until after Draynth and Dierfire also pressure the same thing before placing the vote.

Additionally, her posts at #98 & #99 are strange as well, as in #98 she says she would not have voted Honest if he hadn't already been L-1, but then doubtcasts Honest in the next post (#99).

Additionally I concur with BBT's #153.

VOTE: YurikoJasmine

This is a good post with solid reasoning. I'm really not seeing your problem with it LC.

I've been through all the pages now looking specifically at Yuriko's posts. What she says about being a non-native speaker and posting from a phone do hold up to scrutiny.

snipped

So for that I can excuse Yuriko's short one liners that could be deemed evasive and committal. If I was posting in German I would be doing the same thing even with a keyboard.

I am concerned though about her comment regarding the two of us. The OP says that there are two Mafia. It could be a freudian slip (very easy to do in mafia and I have done it myself). Her post #111 isn't particularly convincing when she claimed she was referring to people that had not posted or were inactive. She herself has been quite active since the beginning of the game (posts 5, 8, 21, 28, 29, 34, 48, 54, 60, 70, 71, 72, 73, 97, 98, 99, 101, 111, 113, 135, 143, 143, 144, 149 and 157)

Mathilda, after all these words I'm not even sure on your read on Yuri? Can you state it for me? Also, can you explain why you chose to ISO Yuri first and why (as far as I can tell) you haven't ISO'd anyone else?

This is one reason I'm not crazy about lynching Yuriko; I'm just not sure I buy that her behavior is strongly indicative of scum, even though I see where her detractors are coming from.

I don't feel like this fits in with your post that I quoted above. Is your read changing on Yuri? If so, why?

Gratuitous replaced in, and immediately voted the most popular wagon while reiterating points that had already been made in the thread and making no other contribution. At the very least, this is not something that should escape scrutiny.

@BBT: Do either of the other votes on the Yuriko wagon bother you? They both look like they were cast under suspicious circumstances to me.

Except Grat's 162 was solid, so joining an 'easy' wagon with solid reasoning is not scummy at all.

I am beginning to become suspicious of Lee though. Looking forward to seeing some more from that slot.

Mostly I just don't trust the sort of things we're talking about with Yuriko.

Again, this isn't fitting in with what you have previously said as you said yourself that Yuri's behaviour was scummy. I really don't like your read progression on her and your position regarding the wagon.

The other things she did make about as much sense as either alignment, so I see why scum would do them, but I don't really see why town wouldn't.

Wording has caught my attention here; can you also see Yuri doing those things as town?

As for the second point, no it isn't the same as either alignment. ZS did not seem uncomfortable making posts at first, nor did he express difficulty getting reads, but ultimately that seems like the most likely reason he replaced out. That would imply scum.

No, what you're doing is speculating on why Zero replaced out and then using your speculation as reasoning for why that slot is scum.

I'll agree that Yuriko has been posting in a suspicious manner recently. I'll take a look at that in a bit.

Making note of this to check if you did it.

What change of story are you talking about

I'm going to expand on this when I finish catching up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Calling someone stupid extremely sarcastically, what a town-read I get from that. :O

Anything else to contribute?

I would also like to know the answer to this question.

We're all just reaching in the dark at the moment trying to find anything to incriminate someone no matter how minor. Yuriko has plausible explanations for everything counting against her (the slip up with 'us', short posts because she is on a phone and not a native speaker). I would be interested to see if there was anything definite against her such as a contradiction or her story changing.

At the moment the most damning thing about her posts is that you can look at them and say that she hasn't really done any scum hunting. If she was scum then she would do well with the posts that she has made to just give the appearance of playing at town. That in itself is actually worthy of being lynched. But can we make that same accusation about other players on here to the same extent? What do the rest of you think?

This post is wishy-washy with your read on Yuri? Can you state it clearly?

Also, Yuri admitted that she asked that question to the wrong replacement, so yeah, you reposting that isn't great. You defend Yuri stating she has plausible explanations for what she is being accused of and then state that you think she might be scum because she isn't scum hunting. Can I assume you think she is scum and would vote her?

all four newbies have been replaced (/meh). They can't all be scum, so your post is basically void unless you can come up with a way to distinguish the four replacements

I'm interested in why you're aiming this at Mathilda when LC is the one pushing for lynching replacements.

More because I'm starting to see that dwlee is ridiculously scummy than anything else.

On another note, what do people think about dwlee. Imo, pretty poor posting and not a lot of it.

Yeah, I'm starting to see this. Lee is looking like a good vote.

I don't disagree. I'm leaning scum on Yuri as well, but I always question myself and try to re-evaluate my conclusions to see if there is something that I am missing. I suppose for me the main problem with her posts has been how they have been light on content. There's no real sense that she's actively trying to find out who the Mafia are. It's easy to just question everything without any actually adding anything. It just adds to the confusion and distracts town. I would vote for her.

I feel that Draynth, BBT, Dierfier, Lowercase are town. I am neutral on you, dwlee99 and necargoface. I need to examine all your posts in more detail.

OK, so you do think Yuri is scum. Is there a reason you haven't voted for her? In fact, you're currently not voting anyone I believe.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Gratuitous's standpoint on me is void. 54 was posted in 7am in the morning in which I wasn't actually awake. I went back to sleep, waking up at 11am realizing I didn't vote him. Also even if I were awake at the time 54 was made I probably would have let him explain himself first since it was his first post.

Do you have a read on Grat Yuri?

Once people stop mking a bbig deal about it, I will move on to other things.

Is there a reason you can't do both?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Lee

This should happen.

Mathilda, you need to place a vote.

Yuri, I still need you to answer my question about where you got the opinion that I was a good player. Dier, I don't believe you got around to looking at Yuri's scummy posting; can you do so now?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, so I'm not willing to lynch Dier, Draynth or Grat Today. Probably not LC either.

Will lynch Lee, Yuri, Necargo or Mathilda. In that order.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Draynth, can you give us a reads list please?

Also, defensiveness is not scummy. Some people are naturally defensive and that is their first thought when they come under attack.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, you can vote Lee. I believe I am the only person voting him.

Draynth, any chance of a reads list?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't think I'm a good town player, my scum game isn't bad but I don't rate my town game all that much.

It matters because if you have no basis for your comment about me (which it seems you haven't) I'm going to see that as an attempt to appease me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Saying I'm a good player with no basis for the comment.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But in our last game I didn't do well at all, I was all over the place so I don't know where that comment has come from. So, to me, it seems you said that in an effort to appease me and therefore get me to unvote you and start looking elsewhere.

Also, you said I 'always misread you', we've played together once, correct?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You could try to scum hunt?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Usually, I don't think replacing out is alignment indicative but I

really

don't like the timing of that one.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't understand this lynch train on me. I've gotten mostly "null" reads on most people here and laid out who I think are scum and my town reads. I don't know what more people want of me.

Can you lay out those reads for me with reasoning for each one?

My main gripe with Yuri early on was a combination of the 'RV' push and the post in which she asked ZS 'why do you think people are voting you?' The first because it was a silly reason and the second because it was a silly question. Had she continued doing things I thought were silly wastes of time I would have scum-read her more strongly, but she didn't. The only other thing I thought was worth mentioning was that her lee vote seemed like an attempt to redirect attention, but that was a meh reason even when I pointed it out.

OK, well now you're using 'silly' as a synonym for 'scummy' and I don't like that. You said 'Yuri's behaviour was pretty scummy' (your words) this implies that your feelings on Yuri were more than just 'she was doing silly things.' What am I missing here?

Once dwlee reaches L-1 I'll declare intent to hammer.

Lowercase why wait? Why not vote him now?

This ^^^

Watching with concern: Draynth

Can you expand on this read please Grat?

I see from the recent posts that DWL is at L-1 and Lowercase has preemptively stated intent. I think that the lynch is fairly good--my preferred alternative would be Mathilda and I'd be willing to compromise on Yuriko or Necargo.

First post I dislike from Dier. Having 4 lynch options is not cool man; has Shaddowez' posts effected your opinion of that slot?

PS. Guys I'll be V/LA from tomorrow until Sunday evening. I should be able to post once or twice over the next few days but if not I sincerely apologies, I'll get back to show my face ASAP.

Don't think I have forgotten about that reads-list Draynth. I'm still waiting.

It also appears that dwlee is showing large amounts of confbias towards Yuri

You're aware that only town suffer from conf-bias, right?

UNVOTE:

Something doesn't feel right here and I think there is more discussion to be had.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm tunneling yuri because I have no other leads, I just have a gut feeling yuri is scum. I have no clue right now who the other scum is and that's why I'm focusing on Yuri. And no, I don't have any other game. This is my only game on here that wasn't marathon (which mostly is quickly saying what your role did and sometimes random votes).

Lee, can you tell me what you usually look for when you're trying to find scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How far along is it? Do you have anything you can share right now?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I do have a direction. I'm in the middle of discussing a few things and I don't want the day to end yet.

You seem concerned that I haven't clearly stated in which direction I may proceed. Any reason?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We have over 3 1/2 days, there is no rush.

Why do you think I would want to 'wait around'?

That's very pro-town of you to say but don't worry, we're not no lynching.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I was just repeating your question Yuri.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, so now we're in agreement that I DO have a direction?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll wait just in case.

I would really like to know the answer to 312.

PEdit - I might do Yuri, it depends on a couple of things.

LC, you just stated that I have clearly shown a direction that I am interested in pursuing. Now you're saying I'm not seriously pushing it. I can agree with the second statement, I'm not seriously pushing anything yet. This does show that your original statement of me lacking direction is false though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not interested in lynching you Yuri.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can quite easily vote Lee if it comes to it.

I see no problem with pursuing other avenues whilst we have 3 days and the game is only 14 pages long.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Let's see what he says.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK Lee, but your gut must work on something.

Tell me, what does 'acting suspicious' look like?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mathilda, do you think the threat of a hammer was imminent? Because I do.

Lee, anything more than active lurking? What does active lurking look like to you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm in the process of trying to work him out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Huh? Can you define active lurking for me?

Can you tell me what else you look for when trying to find scum other than active lurking?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Lee

Even if he is town, he is lynch bait further down the line.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree but it's too late to do anything else.

I fully expect you to flip town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@LC - I'm not voting Grat.

@Lee - Because your scum hunting skills are lacking and because you're a hindrance to the town. I advise that you keep up with the game so you can learn how other people scum hunt and then you won't be relying on gut.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't see the point of that question.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Really? He looks pretty damn town from where I'm sitting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In case I die; LC or Draynth should be lynched tomorrow.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, well I tried to get you to explain how you scum hunt and you gave me gut. That was it. Oh and active lurking.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Will get to this later today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Catching up; couple of posts to note.

But really when it comes to it, it might be another dreadful day with dwlee alive tunneling and refusing to scumhunt all over again

This feels town. Yuri had expressed interest in a different lynch but very quickly come back around to lynching Dwlee.

One could argue that what you have done is a scummy move. If you were Mafia and you knew that dwlee was town, then you basically start a lynch wagon by being the second to vote (not the first, that's too dangerous, Yuri would get the blame in this scenario, someone who is also pinging people's scumdar, and one vote does not a lynch wagon make). And then when you're confident that the wagon can roll without you, you jump off without giving any specific reason why you have changed your mind and are then free of blame when the flip happens.

So I'm interested, what specifically feels off to you? Unvoting doesn't stop us exploring other possibilities unless you think that the chance of the ban hammer falling high. Or do you think we were becoming too complacent that we have chosen the right person?

This also feels town. Mathilda thought I was scum distancing from a town mislynch - I don't see her posting this knowing her scum buddy was about to be lynched.

Also, looking back over pages 13/14, it looks like LC was trying to make a big deal of my unvote. I feel like he was trying to tie me to Dwlee knowing he was going to flip scum and that he could use this to push me on D2.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is it likely that Dwlee was bussed day 1 in people's opinions? I've never lynched scum day 1 before so I have no idea

It's hard to say. If he was bussed, it was almost certainly LC.

If he was bussed it seems like the most likely busser would be shaddowez.

Oh really? Why?

I think generally the 3rd / 4th votes are most likely to be bus votes.

What is this based on?

My best guess right now is that it's between Shadowwz and Grat, that's more a gut feeling though.

Gut reads D2 are pretty bad. Can you expand on both of these reads please?

vote: Mathilda

IIoA since D2. After reading her post which contains many thoughts and direction in quite lost at where her position is. Plus her wall of vote count with exactly no elaboration on it.

I get why you're doing this but in light of my recent post about Mathilda, do you still think she is scum? Further, is this really your strongest reasoning for scum on D2?

snip Grat case

VOTE: Grat

I quite liked the case - though I disagree with the conclusion. Do you think scum put their buddy to L-1 super early in the game? That would be pretty ballsy for newb!scum to pull off.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

At this point, I'm pretty sure the final scum is in Draynth/LC.

I'm only willing to vote between these two Today and for now;

VOTE: Draynth

This feels good.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

His lack of reads/reasoning.

Especially when he was supposedly working on a reads-list for me D1.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, but if he was so intent on lynching Dwlee - why wait until it is confirmed that he is the lynch?

Surely he would want to be on that wagon early to push it through? The fact is that he waited until it was inevitable that Dwlee was going to be lynched and THEN he joined the wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, claiming Grat is not scum hunting is false. He is clearly scum hunting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What do you think I have a point about Mathilda?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Waiting for Draynth.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Prodge.

Will get to this later today hopefully.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

For the moment I'm going to go with my gut: VOTE: Draynth

This vote doesn't make much sense given you just posted reasons for thinking Shaddow was scum. Why would you vote a gut scum read over a scum read you appear to have reasoning for?

The reason I waited for L-1 is precisely the reason I gave; I didn't want day one to drag on. It doesn't really matter though. My premature intent to hammer was as good as a vote anyway, claiming otherwise is a little silly.

No, it isn't. You can claim to hammer Lee if he gets to L-1, but your 'vote' only ever matters if Lee actually reaches L-1. If he doesn't, then your 'vote' never existed. Basically, what you do by saying you will hammer is a) avoid the wagon on your scum buddy if he doesn't get run up to L-1 and b) ensure you're on the wagon if he does get run up to L-1.

Claiming to hammer and actually placing the vote are two very different things.

Other than that I think the most likely busser is Shadodowez, if Dwlee was bussed, if he wasn't I'm not sure right now. I'm going to have to reread a few things.

You're very unsure of yourself Draynth; I think you're waiting for some direction.

VOTE: Unvote

Gotta reevaluate my position

Same for the unvote. You thought Shaddow was coming under suspicion and you placed your vote in time to ensure your place on the wagon before it picked up. Now, Shaddow has come under less fire and you need to 'reevaluate'. Your whole lurking/non content posting looks exactly like scum who is waiting for the game to take a direction so they can join in.

Your reads list was awful as well, based solely on the wagon which makes it much easier for you to provide a list. It also couldn't have included the stuff you were 'working on' when you last spoke about the read list because Lee hadn't been lynched yet. Exclude the wagon; what are your reads on people? Quote specific posts with reasoning to justify each read as well please.

Can we get intent to hammer stated on Draynth please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Shaddow, talk to me about why I'm scum. I don't fully understand your case.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Claiming to hammer and actually placing the vote are two very different things.

Even the example you gave is inherently flawed in that if you claim premature intent and no one votes up to L-1, there isn't enough support to push a lynch through anyway.

Wrong, more votes = more momentum. That's very basic, by withholding your vote (even though you claim you will join wagon) you slow the momentum of the wagon down. I feel that should be pretty obvious.

Anyway, I differ on my opinion of Draynth's read list. It's bad that it took him so long to do; but given that fact, it's not surprising that the reads looked a little lazy. There's a strong possibility that he's just a disinterested/busy townie.

This is so strange - what gives you the opinion of Draynth being a 'disinterested townie'? I mean, we just lynched scum D1. I know of one alignment that would be disinterested after D1, but it isn't town... So please, elaborate on this for me.

I think I'm back to wanting a grat lynch, and still need to revisit lc.

I don't see Grat being scum. Looking forward to what you have to say about him.

What are your thoughts on Draynth?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey guys, will get to this later today.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I could talk all day about how Grat's day one positioning was bad. How his day 2 play was also pretty bad, being practically non-existent and all. But I'll wait until someone asks me about that.

LC, if Grat is scum; why are you not dead? I'm obviously having serious trouble in reading people in this game so atm I'm feeling a little lost. I'm still having serious trouble seeing Grat as scum though.

Scum have either been insanely lucky with the kills or they are experienced (nailing two PRs). I'm feeling pretty shitty atm because I don't know what to do or what direction to go in.

BBT

- With Draynth flipping town, are you still so sure about LC being the other scum?

No, I'm not. I'm just gonna hold my hands up and say I have no idea who is scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spoiler: D1 VCs

Vote Count 1.2

ZeroSummer

(4): YurikoJasmine, BlueBloodedToffee,

Draynth

,

MasonP

MasonP

(1):

Dierfire

Not Voting

(4):

Honest

, Marklin, Axwell, ZeroSummer

Vote Count 1.3

Honest

(4): ZeroSummer,

Dierfire

, BlueBloodedToffee, necargoface

BlueBloodedToffee

(2):

Honest

, Axwell

ZeroSummer

(1):

MasonP

necargoface

(1): YurikoJasmine

Not Voting

(1):

Draynth

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Vote Count 1.4

Honest

(3): ZeroSummer,

Dierfire

, necargoface

BlueBloodedToffee

(2):

Honest

, Axwell

ZeroSummer

(1):

Dwlee99

necargoface

(1):

Draynth

YurikoJasmine

(1): BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting

(1): YurikoJasmine

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Vote Count 1.5

YurikoJasmine

(3): BlueBloodedToffee,

Dwlee99

, Gratuitous

Mathilda

(2):

Dierfire

, necargoface

BlueBloodedToffee

(2):

Mathilda

, lowercase

necargoface

(1):

Draynth

Dwlee99

(1): YurikoJasmine

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Vote Count 1.7

Dwlee99

(3): YurikoJasmine, BlueBloodedToffee,

Mathilda

YurikoJasmine

(2):

Dwlee99

, Gratuitous

Mathilda

(1):

Dierfire

Gratuitous

(1): Lowercase

necargoface

(1):

Draynth

Not Voting

(1): necargoface

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Vote Count 1.8

Dwlee99

(4): YurikoJasmine, BlueBloodedToffee,

Mathilda

, shaddowez

YurikoJasmine

(2):

Dwlee99

, Gratuitous

shaddowez

(1):

Draynth

Mathilda

(1):

Dierfire

Gratuitous

(1): Lowercase

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Vote Count 1.9

Dwlee99

(3): YurikoJasmine,

Mathilda

, shaddowez

YurikoJasmine

(2):

Dwlee99

, Gratuitous

shaddowez

(1):

Draynth

Mathilda

(1):

Dierfire

Gratuitous

(1): Lowercase

Not Voting

(1): BlueBloodedToffee

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Vote Count 1.10

Dwlee99

(5): YurikoJasmine,

Mathilda

, shaddowez, BlueBloodedToffee, Lowercase

YurikoJasmine

(2):

Dwlee99

, Gratuitous

shaddowez

(1):

Draynth

Mathilda

(1):

Dierfire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

OK, couple of things.

I find it highly unlikely that both scum (especially newb-scum) voted side by side for the majority of D1 (see VC 1.7 onwards). Also, Mason (Dwlee) voted for Zero (Grat) to place him at L-1 super early in the game - I still don't see this coming from scum - especially newb scum. Given I'm already town reading Grat, I am ruling him out of my lynch pool Today and probably for the rest of the game.

If I believe Grat to be town, then the VC 1.3 looks pretty telling - is that an all town wagon on Honest (Mathilda)? Or is Necargo (Shaddow) scum taking advantage of a wagon in the ascendancy?

I feel like I need to take a closer look at Shaddow so I'm planning on doing that at some point soon. If anyone bussed - it was him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Actually, Dwlee and Grat were both voting Yuri from VC 1.5.

LC, you still think they can be scum together?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, Shaddow's 'scum-read' on me and retraction looks pretty bad upon closer inspection. Especially when he claims it was down to me 'not doing things' when in actual fact his case was based on my interactions with Dwlee and my voting history. The fact he is claiming he 'doesn't remember what he found scummy about me' when it's right there in 458 is also pretty worrying.

I think Shaddow was testing the waters for a BBT lynch. I also think he thought LC would bite and the two of them together could drive a wagon on me. Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with this now;

VOTE: Shaddow

[BlueBloodedToffee]

LC, I would appreciate your vote being moved onto Shaddow.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm good with Grat hammering.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Man, that's pretty annoying. I had you on D1 Yuri, I don't know why I let it go

WP scum, deserved that win. Two good kills to start with as well.

Yuri, did you slip in 29?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Let's not hammer until the two of us get to say something (or get replaced)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I knew it wasn't Grat but I think I would have voted LC anyway had I lived into LyLo.

It was only the night-kill that made me think Yuri could be scum. Setting up LC vs Grat was her best option by far.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can only say that your lack of engagement concerned me. I thought when you actually posted it wasn't half bad but at vital times of the game you seemed to go missing. When you did return you did a lot of stalling and took a while to provide content that was asked of you. Your actual posting wasn't scummy it was your activity/engagement.

To me, it come across as scum trying to slide by whilst letting town go at each other (which, funnily enough, is exactly what Yuri did).