Newbie 1633: The Daily Show-A Retrospective - GAME OVER

[Draynth]

Hi again BBT and Dierfire!
VOTE: Honest
Because it's ironic if he's scum

[Draynth]

Because he isn't voting or is there a different reason?

[Draynth]

ZeroSummer it's pretty clear you're opposed to RV's, why is that?
@BBT I don't have any particular reasons, no. I just don't have any reasons to do so without asking some questions first.

[Draynth]

Hmmmmmmmmm, sure why not.
VOTE: ZeroSummer

[Draynth]

my reply to this post somehow got put in the quote:

OK, can you vote Zero and ask why he is trying to halt progress of the game?

Let's get a wagon forming and get this game rolling.

Funny because me not voting has generated more talking than random voting has

Meh I wouldn't say you not talking has progressed the game, BBT's wagon push on you has IMO

[Draynth]

^You not

Voting[/v]....
My bad

[Draynth]

Oh my god I'm so derpy, Ill just redo that sentence.

'Meh I wouldn't say you not voting has progressed the game, BBT's wagon push on you has IMO'

[Draynth]

I want to wait and see whether Honest's vote was an RV, it could be since it was his first post

[Draynth]

Right now I'm not entirely sure

Unvote

I don't think we'll get any more reactions from that wagon.
I'm unsure because 31 could be 1 of 2 things in my opinion.
1) Town!Zero is genuinely scumhunting after being put to L-1
2) Scum!Zero is deflecting attention to another player to get away from L-1
Right now it's too early to tell I guess

unvote tag problem fixed for the automatic vote counter - f

[Draynth]

I wish more people would post on what has happened so far :/

[Draynth]

@direfire:

your vote and activity has pretty much been naked too how is it different?

Two things:

1. I like it when players provide reasons for their votes, even if that reason is nonsensical RVS. With Honest's vote, I can't tell whether that vote was RVS or not.

You like it or you think it's a town sign?

2. This question is a little strange to me, because I can't easily see the reason for asking it. The purpose isn't, I assume, to ask why I voted for Honest rather than for myself.

I think it's simply being implied that your vote is hypocritical (I'm guessing)

[Draynth]

@Necargoface: It seems weird to me that you have an issue with people putting someone at L-1 and yet you put someone at L-1 with your 'RV'.

[Draynth]

I guess that I consider it helpful to Town, but it's not strongly indicative of alignment.

Ok thanks.

@Axwell

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee for supporting such a terrible team

What do you think of his play thus far?

I wish he, along with about 3 others, would post something :/

Also I forgot to say welcome to Necargoface!

[Draynth]

Vote stays on Honest because he hasn't posted since the vote explaining why he should not be hammered.

That's an awful reason for your vote

[Draynth]

@BBT I don't think he should be lynched. I can see the reasoning behind your vote but I just dont see it as a good choice for a lynch right now.

[Draynth]

You know if you were voting for a reason there's no need for you to name it RV. The only reason you should do so is because you know your reason sucks so you cover it up with a "RV" label should people ask about it in later games. And now when people frown on you you quickly defend your vote like he's your scumread all along.

vote: necargoface

I like RV's. I didn't get to make one in the early stages.

I made an RV

. I realized there was a pretty obvious vote. I voted Honest.

The reason I put the RV label on it is because I like RV's and wanted to make an RV, but didn't want to input nothing to that post either. Not because I have a horrid reason.

So you're saying it was an RV, but not an RV?

[Draynth]

^Is he a null read to you?

[Draynth]

Probably not, no.

[Draynth]

I think what I need to do is go do some reading to try to understand how you can tell what anyone is.

Gut alone I think necargo is town.

Why? I think the exact opposite right now.

[Draynth]

-I am generally lazy.
-I generally like wagons (probably because I'm lazy)

This is just an easy get out of jail free card if he get's caught later in the game for jumping on tons of wagons.

@Necargoface: It seems weird to me that you have an issue with people putting someone at L-1 and yet you put someone at L-1 with your 'RV'.

Thank you for putting "RV" in quotation marks, because it was not really an RV. Definitely not actually an RV.

This post directly contradicts his 68 where he says

'I like RV's. I didn't get to make one in the early stages. I made an RV.

'
He keeps saying that his vote was an RV, but then gives a reason. The meaning of an RV is

Random Vote

, ie. Voting without a

legitimate

reason.
I don't have a problem with him opening the game with an RV, or opening with a legit vote. I have an issue when he tries to pass off his vote as an RV. My guess is that if someone were to quickhammer, please for the love of god don't, then he will just say 'It was an RV, I wasn't on that wagon'.

Vote stays on Honest because he hasn't posted since the vote explaining why he should not be hammered.

That's an awful reason for your vote

I am voting because he has posted once this entire game with a naked, contextless, useless post,

and has not responded to any of the resulting backlash

.

Given the fact that at the time he hadn't posted anything else, or on any other threads on the site, why is this scummy?

Because we shouldn't hammer Honest until he responds to all the backlash he's getting.

This could just be a grammar error, if that's the right way to phrase it, but doesn't this imply that you want someone to hammer no matter how he responds?

The reason I put the RV label on it is because I like RV's and wanted to make an RV, but didn't want to input nothing to that post either. Not because I have a horrid reason.

Again, saying it's an RV then also saying it's not an RV.

God, I'm bad at remembering to reply to all the posts that I want to.

Vote stays on Honest because he hasn't posted since the vote explaining why he should not be hammered. I will still violently go after whomever hammers him without warning, however.

It sounds as though you think that he would flip Town. Do you?

He could flip town. I don't think he would, but he could.

How can you

possibly

think this? He had made

one

post. One.

I mean of course he's null. He has one post which is just a naked vote. We shouldn't hammer until he posts more though.

This. We shouldn't hammer Honest yet because he is a nul read to many, because many can't tell intentions when a person posts a total of 2(-4) words.

If he's a null read to many, as you said yourself you can't tell intentions from one post, why are you so adamant that he is scum?
Finally is my issue with necargo for putting Honest at L-1 with his 'Rv'-'Not RV'-'legit vote'-whatever you wanna call it. Why not just state your dissatisfaction with the post, and look through other posts so far to come up with a scum read? The only reason I can see you doing this is to rolefish.
VOTE: Necargoface

[Draynth]

I agree with Draynth in broad terms that Necargo's vote and reasoning is suspicious if Honest is Town. I'm still not convinced of that, however. In particular, from his recent series of posts, I'm not seeing how BBT was "too pushy" but Necargo is Town for being "vocal" (whatever that means).

Why do those two things make you unsure of Honest being town?
And why is Necargo's vote only suspicious if Honest is town?

[Draynth]

I'll post some responses tomorrow guys, I'm super tired today. Sorry

[Draynth]

If Necargo is pushing Honest using faulty logic, and is doing so because he is Mafia, then Honest should be Town, right? Unless you think that Necargo would make that same push on his partner?

Hmm ok, I see where you are coming from.

I haven't seen a reason not to vote Honest yet. will reread tonight though with some thoughts.

Do you have those thoughts?

MAFIA

Necargo

took an approach to Honest's wagon that doesn't make much sense to me. He placed the fourth vote on the wagon in 53 while claiming that Honest's vote was "odd" but did not expound on this. His attitude towards the hammer (106) was also strange to me, and I could easily see the attitude (automatic suspicion of the hammer vote regardless of the flip) coming from Mafia that placed the fourth vote on a Town player. I was thinking that Honest would have to be Town if Necargo were Mafia based on these factors, but I'm also suspicious of Honest.

Honest

had a bit of a weird entrance. If his initial vote on BBT (27) was because he found BBT's RVS wagons suspicious, then he should have said so. I found his later positive characterization of Necargo as "vocal" (91) incongruous with his vote on BBT. His latest series of posts seemed designed to stall, with professions of incompetence that, to me, seemed out of place for someone who has played a few games before (even if he did replace out of those games).

I understand that you have these two reads in ascending order of suspicion (Ie, Honest is scummier), but isn't it contradictory to have them both as scum reads for D1? Do you think it's likely that they would bus each other on D1 if they were scum together?

[Draynth]

Also welcome Dwlee!

[Draynth]

It depends on time zones mostly, For example its 12.40am for me right now, and once I wake up there will probably be another page or two for me to read. This game is quite a slow one, but there is usually a lot more posting from my experience. The replacements always slow games down a tad.

[Draynth]

Draynth sort of does the same thing as yuriko though. It's weird that even though cargo's vote is actually opportunistic and arguably scummy, both of the retaliatory votes on him included such a skeevy point.

I felt fine about doing it because it wasn't the key point of my arguement in the slightest. I had other points, which speak for themselves. I can see your point about Yuriko though.

Nothing Honest has posted so far comes off as scummy. The naked vote was not opportunistic and the reason behind it was sort of obvious, so it wasn't all that bad. His posts are a little lazy but they don't strike me as bad in any of the ways I'm looking for at this juncture. Still, if he doesn't start posting more, I don't want to see him anywhere near lylo.

This^

Yuriko's insistence on attacking Cargo's 'RV' thing is comically missing the point, which is a common scum tactic.
.

This. Yuriko is putting all of his emphasis on a single sentence. I'm restating the whole "RV isn't an RV guys" thing because I for some reason need to reiterate that a single sentence should not have this much weight on the game. In fact, I changed the vote and added the words in parenthesis in Preview editing, after looking at the game a bit more.

There should not be over 10 posts talking about this. This should be the last post or one of the last posts debating this issue.

The bolded sentence bugs me a bit, It could just be me being nitpicky though. It bugs me because that isn't for you to decide. People find what they wanna find in a post, everyone interprets it differently and you're not allowed to just go 'That doesn't count, don't talk about it'. I can understand why you have done so, but it just seems odd to me.

[Draynth]

^. It was his first post, and out of the blue. Why did you assume it was

not

an RV?

[Draynth]

Btw guys, I'll be V/LA from tomorrow until Monday, apologies for such short notice. I actually forgot I was going to be away.
I should be able to post at least once a day, I'll try to do it more often where possible.

[Draynth]

On why I didn't assume that Honest was making an RV: Rv's should have some form of text surrounding them, because an RV is supposed to say

something

about you, whether explicitly or implicitly. A completely naked vote can't do that because there cannot be anything personal about the post. If Honest had some nonchalant context (even such as a simple "Hi there") then it could be an RV, but RV posts should have some content other than the two words used to vote, especially if there is no following content. Honest's vote seems odd to me because it had no context; It had nothing surrounding it, not even a non-conspicuous "hi".

I disagree aswell. First of all, an RV is far more likely to be a naked vote compared to a serious vote. A serious vote with no reasoning is dumb and scummy. An RV that has no reasoning is just an RV

[Draynth]

Sorry for the inactivity guys, will have some posts by tonight!

[Draynth]

I still think Necargoface is the scummiest person in the game. I outlined my initial case in 93.
In 137 he says '

Honest's vote was not clearly an RV

and was at a time where RV's are becoming more uncommon

'.
The underlined is blatantly not true. There was 0 way to tell whether the vote was an RV or not, and the end result doesn't matter because it doesn't justify the scum read in the first place.
I answered his 167 in 173.
The other

major

concern that I have with the slot is A)His level of activity (not particularly alignment indicitave however) and B) The fact that he has done 0 scumhunting. The

only

'ScumHunting' he has done was on the Honest slot and even then that was shady at best.
For those who don't see this slot as scummy, could you explain why?

[Draynth]

@Draynth: Maybe it was because I wasn't reading it as it happened, but I had assumed honest was not RV'ing myself. I don't think his post quality is as bad as you make it out to be.

What made you assume that it wasn't an RV?

[Draynth]

Necargoface pretty much responded to nothing but the issue on his "RV" (or not) on honest. This in itself is scummy. He only mentioned one (seemingly weak) town read.

Once people stop mking a bbig deal about it, I will move on to other things.

This seems pretty scummy for two reasons.
1) There is no reason you cant do both.
2) He's putting defending himself before scumhunting. Town members shouldn't care what people think of them unless it'll lead to them being lynched or if it affects their credibility when forming a wagon. Scum however do care.

[Draynth]

I'm going to read through The Dwlee slot posts and see what I think

[Draynth]

@BBT. Hmm that's a fair point actually. I still have an issue with it though because he is sacrificing scumhunting in order to do it. The fact that he's just doing the first is an issue to me.

[Draynth]

Working on that reads list now, what do you think of necargo replacing out BBT?

[Draynth]

PS. Guys I'll be V/LA from tomorrow until Sunday evening. I should be able to post once or twice over the next few days but if not I sincerely apologies, I'll get back to show my face ASAP.

[Draynth]

I do realize that. What I'm pointing out is that you clearly are not playing to your win con if you were town

That's not necessarily true. If we decided to lynch you today and you flipped scum, we could get some associate tells.He's trying to hunt scum, I'm not saying I agree with him but if he is town he is playing to his win con IMO

[Draynth]

@BBT Apologies, I'll try to get it done while I'm away. if I dont have enough time I'll definitely have it by monday. Sorry for the big delay

[Draynth]

Is it likely that Dwlee was bussed day 1 in people's opinions? I've never lynched scum day 1 before so I have no idea

[Draynth]

Because if not it's between myself and Grat

[Draynth]

If he was bussed it seems like the most likely busser would be shaddowez.

Or BBT or yourself. I doubt that Mathilda or Yuriko are the other scum.
I think generally the 3rd / 4th votes are most likely to be bus votes.

Probability then is that one of the remaining Mafia did not vote for dwlee, so why remove one of the potential suspects? Even if the remaining scum voted successfully for dwlee early on, you'd still want to keep the pool of better suspects available for a lynch.

My best guess is to try and implicate you. Dierfire was the only person that was scumreading you, for whatever reason, and the partner is probably going to try use that as an arguement to get you lynched. It's odd though

This suggests to me that either the remaining Mafia is a beginner, or they suspected Dierfire of being a power role. I don't remember him hinting at it though.

Realistically I think the only two cleared players, for now, are Mathilda and Yuriko.
Shadowwz, BBT or Lowercase could have bussed and could be the remaining scum.
Myself or Grat could be the scum partner who didn't bus.

My best guess right now is that it's between Shadowwz and Grat, that's more a gut feeling though.

[Draynth]

Do you think it's likely that the second vote on a scum wagon was a scum partner bussing d1?

[Draynth]

06 - Dwanyth is the only one voting on Mathilda, but then unvotes and joins a lynch wagon that is developing on Gratuitous (09). He is then immediately followed by dwlee99 (10). At the time this was the largest lynch wagon. This looks very suspicious but he then unvotes at (17) and votes necargoface/shaddowwez instead (22). If he is scum then why did he not continue with the lynch wagon? Suspicion was falling on necargo at the time so maybe he thought this was a better bet, especially as there were still quite a few days until the end of the phase.

06 was my RV.
09 was me voting Zerosummer to see what reaction he would have from the pressure.
22 was me voting on a scum read, I was the one drawing suspicion onto Necargo. I don't see your arguement about me being the most suspicious

[Draynth]

Just thought I'd add, vote count analysis is just one bit of evidence that needs to be taken into consideration along with everything else. It can only tell part of the story.

Also yeah, I was just about to add this

[Draynth]

I'll respond to posts by tonight, sorry for the absence

[Draynth]

Sorry, I'm home tomorrow and will msake some posts from my computer. Apologies

[Draynth]

If you have any questions / requests it's easiest if you direct them to me now, I'm going to read back through the last few pages to see what I have missed (Working on that reads list now BBT)
Other than that I think the most likely busser is Shadodowez, if Dwlee was bussed, if he wasn't I'm not sure right now. I'm going to have to reread a few things.

[Draynth]

Town

Yuriko
BBT / Mathilda
Lowercase
Grat
Shaddowez

Scum

The order in which the Dwlee wagon formed had a fair influence on this list.

• Yuriko is at the top as she first started the Dwlee wagon. That's about it really, her actual posts give me a slight town lean vibe but it's mostly the wagon thing.
  
• BBT / Mathilda are next because A) They were both on the Dwlee wagon (relatively) early, and B) They are both actively attempting to solve the game in my opinion.
  
• LowerCase is in the middle and is strongly town leaning. I've liked LC's posts (Similar to BBT + Mathilda) and they were also on the lynch wagon.
  
• Next is Grat with a slight scum lean. A big factor in this is that he wasn't on the lynch wagon, other than that there are a number of small things that I've noticed while reading through his ISO that make me feel a tad uneasy, I'll work on a post for this at a later stage, I need to go to bed soon.
  
• Right now my biggest scum read is Shaddowez. Although he was on the lynch wagon, IMO, he could've easily jumped onto the wagon in order to gain town points (He jumped on as the L-2 vote). There is also my big case on Necargo (Shaddowez's predecessor). I'm going to reread a lot of Shaddowez's posts and see if anything in particular sticks out while doing so.

I'm ok with this for now.
VOTE: Shaddowez

[Draynth]

VOTE: Unvote
Gotta reevaluate my position

[Draynth]

Other than that I think the most likely busser is Shadodowez, if Dwlee was bussed, if he wasn't I'm not sure right now. I'm going to have to reread a few things.

You're very unsure of yourself Draynth; I think you're waiting for some direction.

Of course I'm unsure of myself, I'm an extremely indecisive person.

VOTE: Unvote

Gotta reevaluate my position

Same for the unvote. You thought Shaddow was coming under suspicion and you placed your vote in time to ensure your place on the wagon before it picked up. Now, Shaddow has come under less fire and you need to 'reevaluate'. Your whole lurking/non content posting looks exactly like scum who is waiting for the game to take a direction so they can join in.

Not at all, Shaddow immediately posted a case on you right after I voted him. I wanted time to reread it and decide if it changed my position on his slot.

Your reads list was awful as well, based solely on the wagon which makes it much easier for you to provide a list.

So what, you're saying that I shouldn't use the wagon at all? The wagon that was on a scum player D1? I didn't 'solely' use the wagon as basis for my reads list, I specifically said in it that it had a fair influence, sure, but it wasn't solely the wagon.

Can we get intent to hammer stated on Draynth please?

So wait, you ask for a reads list, then the very next line ask for an intent to hammer? Why are you trying to rush the game so much?

[Draynth]

Wait so I was lynched? zz

[Draynth]

GG everyone! Well played Yuri, that D1 bus was pretty hilarious.
FYI guys, it's usually a bad sign when someone hammers without declaring intent to do so from my experience. Town tend to be far more paranoid that they're wrong and they want to give that person a chance to claim / make some final remarks. Only scum aren't worried about this.
Anyway I played this game pretty badly so if anyone has any tips/ pointers they'd be very much appreciated :p. If anyone else wants feedback I'd be happy to give some from my bad play POV