Mini 1726: Netherspite's Semi-Open Role Madness [Game Over]

[ika]

man i was so hopign for jester but i didnt get it

[ika]

so i should go read setup but i wont instead im just going to go tell anti hi

[ika]

also i need to say hi to ank whos here

[ika]

so i jsut now relaize this is a take off form sc2 mafia mod

[ika]

ell ya now i know im going to have fun this game

[ika]

anyway sleep time

[ika]

Hey ika

OMG HI SHRIO I DIDNT KNOW YOU WERE HERE!

Ank you are such a rebel that I cut myself on your edge

Spiffeh all roles are randomized what you said really helps nobody

@ika How do you feel about this one in a life time chance to hammer 3 people in row?

omg do we have a marshall? thats like the most fun thing ever

[ika]

Well what are we waiting for pm the mod and activate it.

you dont know how trollsy marshal reall is

[ika]

dibs on hammer!

[ika]

aslo fro anyone wondering i dont plan on reading anything yet unless anti/tth yell at me for not doing it

[ika]

man im trying to boot up sc2 now so ic an record the death animations for us all....

right now its not working

[ika]

i really want to show of extended mothership

[ika]

Actually in sc2 mafia mass claim is really an optimal thug with Marshall in play mostly cus it forces scums into a pool to claim in

I'm at work but I can go into a lot of theory's and talk about what's plus and what's not later. Playing 1000+ games of this you know what to do to get town optimal play and win

[ika]

Ari the answer is yes I'm still at work so be done soon

[ika]

ok so i skimmed we have a neutral claim by bins?

did she say what she is cus policy regarding sc2 game meta is to nearly lynch them on first notice

[ika]

Cool, good to know. Thanks Ika!

If they are neutral, doesn't that mean their wincon can go either way?
Possible asset, unless I'm missing something.

welcome.

As for neutral its dependent on what she is. i looked at OP to see what existed just in case anything was omitted but it not so i can tell them all

any neutral evil can not win with town so im not gonna go into them

survivor doesnt give a fuck and 99% of the time does get lynched on sight mostly cus its a safe fakeclaim for sucm (although ideal play for survivor is to claim day 1 and vest each night and if bus driver exist is to bus the survivor and themselfs/potential kill targets to use as meat sheild)

executioner (lyncher) most times would jsut claim fake guilties on their targets day 2 and get them lynched, it is however unknown on one potiont hat needs to be clarified

is the executionrs target always town or can it be any alignment

there is an option where the executiosn target is always town (and it cant be marshal/mayor due to being confirmed town by power) and if thats the case bins should jsut claim her target and if we have buffer room lynch them later for her win

jester (omg my fav): ideal play is to jsut be assholery as possible or set up so much shit that its not belivable. however with her early claim right now if shes jester the ideal thing is to claim one of the opposing roles and get lycnhed. claiming jester as jester is also a ploy used cus towns can be relucent to do evey lynch it and makes scum fakecliams. i doubt shes doing that gambit though.

amnisac: she should claim this and if we end up lynching town in out 3 set lynch she takes the most potental one night 1 to prove her role or get turboed tommorow. there is one thing i think mod left out

can amisiac take unique roles (ie mayor/marshall/witch doc)

[ika]

anywyas enough rambling out of me.

i need a vc to look at as well

[ika]

hmmmm....

mod if an amesicac takes marshall can they activate the ability again and get 3 addiotnal lynches the next day?

if this is the case t should be a mass call toDay so we can work out claims and CC and then work form there outward we would have anough lynches (assuming we got a portective thats not rber) to clean the board

[ika]

That is to say, it gives scum the knowledge of some really, really good nightkill targets.

You really dont know how broken mass claim really is in the sc2 mafia mod world do you....

Like the marshall is alrady confirmed town (and in a powerful player no less), even if we did mass call on this i dont see mcuh being changed.

*shrugs* im more used tothe sc2 mod meta of "marshal reveals you mass claim that shit so fast"

[ika]

I don't see how massclaim would be useful. Due to the three "Random Town" slots in the setup, scum can basically just claim any of the non-unique roles and be fine.

not really...

im too tired to work it out atm but the thing is the randoms leave very little buffer room. i mean even if all the scums calimed VT. and everyone else too PR/VT slots you can dedutce form there

sigh give me 5 and i can make a very rough draft

[ika]

im gonna have to spoiler cus its long and drawn out

Spoiler: how it works

our setup is currently this

Town Government (marshall confirmed)
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing or Power
Town Random
Town Random
Town Random
Godfather
Mafia Support
Mafia Deception
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil or Benign
Neutral Evil or Benign

now im gonna make it it a little past simple and say the neutrals are jester and survivor

so jester will fakeclaim VT or something simple IMO, survivor let say truth claims and goes with it

so now we have

Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing or Power
Town Random
Town Random
Godfather
Mafia Support
Mafia Deception
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil or Benign

now lets say we got an investigator, a escort, and spy respctivly (the non conrimable ones but take up st slots) your left with

Town Random
Town Random
Godfather
Mafia Support
Mafia Deception
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil or Benign

so now you got 2 town randoms to fill in and lets make them bg and crier as the town roles who have claimed.

bg overlaps on protet/kill so it is a plausable one. crier has to fit in town random.

your now the scum who have to fit a new position cus once the key sopts (protect/gov/kill/power is taken) it makes it indefently mcuh harder to wiggle out.

right now we have an extra VT claim in the mix (jester) lets say gf claims VT (now we got 2 VT to sort). mafia support claims invesitgator its a near CC yes but they cna both exist so that set off something and lets say we have kidnapper who claims jailor. now we got another overlap in what could be the rand/power/killing.

we also got the neutral killing who will most likely claim VT so now you got butt fuck VT claimers, random ass prs claiming. and a jester hiding out (you can concluse its most likely jester in that cus i think any else should jsut truth claim)

so now you jsut need to sort out who to lynch first and most likely in that case with mashall is to just lynch every VT claimer and go form there

pedit: yes but it still narrows the pool. there will already eb too many town claims and after the confirmed set are filled you can start deducting whos on what side based on feedbacks and actions.

[ika]

basicly what im saying is if all role claim truthfully its going to narrow what scums can do/claim and will most likely be caught via night actions and what can/cant exist anymore

[ika]

Meh. I'm not sold on it. Negatives don't seem to outweigh the positives.

*shrugs*

I wish i could pull up my old games or the stuff from the homesite.

[ika]

Ooook.

Can jester grief death be stopped?

omg we got jester death....

fuck i wanted that so i could dye by a noose... sigh i guess ill have to settle for mothership

[ika]

Sigh....

Anti, are you opposed to mass claim given the idea and experince i have for it?

[ika]

Honeslt i think we should co catagory and then whoever doubles up on anything should claim first.

VT shoudl claim as random town to take their slots.

heatless can start the popcorn if they like otherwise i can start it

[ika]

i only say catagores then roles only cus we got like 6 days to sort this and not 2 mins.

i also am not against everyone jsut claiming next post

[ika]

@ika, there's not against and optimal. Which one is best?

there is no optimal way to set the mass claim. in fm setting when marshall/mayor revealed everoyn ewould pm roles and they would work ti fomr there.

Here we cant do that. the idea of it overall in the end is to jsut force scums int o a claim and then try to catch them via night actions and what can/cant exist.

im still waking up

[ika]

sc2 settings*

[ika]

Town Government (marshall)
Town Investigative
Town Protective (escort)
Town Killing or Power (jailor)
Town Random (me)
Town Random
Town Random
Godfather
Mafia Support
Mafia Deception
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil or Benign
Neutral Evil or Benign (jester)

Ill keep this going so we can sort it

[ika]

there aren't any vt's...

ika did you claim?

yes and no

If this is anything like EM then we sooner or later have a cc

@Mod are roles unique or town random can be whatever?

the only unique roles in game are mayor/marshall (both can not exist), crier, witch doc, mason leader (one can exist at a time) godfather (consig can become 2nd godfather)

ames can normaly not take uniqe roles either

pedit: damn mod ninjaed me

[ika]

Town Government (marshall)
Town Investigative
Town Protective (escort)
Town Killing or Power (jailor/vigilant)
Town Random (me)
Town Random
Town Random
Godfather
Mafia Support
Mafia Deception
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil or Benign
Neutral Evil or Benign (jester)

updated

[ika]

the only unique roles in game are mayor/marshall (both can not exist), crier, witch doc, mason leader (one can exist at a time) godfather (consig can become 2nd godfather)

Crier is not unique.

in a old patch they made crier uniqque due to people putting sevral in and then confirming each other by claiming user. I know it doesnt apply for your setup right now but in general

[ika]

Scrap that then. This is sandbox EM massclaiming was dumb because we don't have the secrecy you get from only the clear knowing the roles. All we will do is optimize the mafias kill now

All roles can be anything and there is no excece in any category at best we will get one more clear

Gfdi >.>

I have seen more setups be broken by mass claim then not cus most roles are confirmable (ie vig is very confirmable by vig shot)

death falvor is distinguiable and vigs would be shot by hihg calibar gun

maifa gets riddled with bullets.

and if we got a bus driver someone can get runned over

pedit: omg bins that what you are....

[ika]

ok i think i got enough claims to wehre anoyne who can confirm role at this point can not be lynched

[ika]

Town Government (marshall) (Hearless)
Town Investigative
Town Protective (escort) (titus)
Town Killing or Power (jailor/vigilant (shiro/ank)
Town Random (me) (ika)
Town Random (bins) (bins)
Town Random
Godfather
Mafia Support
Mafia Deception
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil or Benign
Neutral Evil or Benign (jester) (spiffeh)

updated

pedit: it does, i know what bins is claiming and its most likely town

pedit: omg plz be super funny at night

[ika]

lol

[ika]

I just noticed day start give me a few to read up

[ika]

Getting to computer now

[ika]

jenne what are you even talking about cus you make no sense, blocking a crier in gernal does nothignn

[ika]

hold on i need to grab shiro list and sort this out

can everyon claim their role if not already i knwo most have but i need bella and runner again

[ika]

Town Government - Heartless (Marshall)
Town Investigative - ???
Town Protective -
Town Killing or Power - Ankamius (Vigilante)
Town Random -
Town Random -
Town Random -
Godfather -
Mafia Support -
Mafia Deception -
Neutral Killing - Aristophanes (Arsonist)
Neutral Evil or Benign - Judge
Neutral Evil or Benign - Spiffeh (Jester)

ok so this is the lsit with whats confimred. i need to see OP again to check somehting cus if it does go by sc2 standards gf is always the one who enacts the kill

[ika]

ok yes so gf is the one who enacts a kill and other become masifos if gf is not present, gf is also immune ot the rb so if they got someone was immune it would lead to them but there was a no kill so bets are whoever shiro jailed is the gf who couldnt kill right now if thats th said case

[ika]

no kill personaly is an extemely subopimal move considering what we had present already so i am not account that idea

[ika]

in any case if this is te case shiro should jsut continue to jail the person and we lynch outside of that unill mafia is eliminated and then shiro can jail+execute

[ika]

that way mafia can not kill and we will alwasy have the power of the lynch to use against them

[ika]

jester played i our favor also and eliminated arson...

granted arson is weak already untill they reformated it to make it better

[ika]

@ika, were you blocked? Yes or no?

how am i suppose to know? the mod didnt make it informed by my knowlage

[ika]

Ika, runner hasn't claimed. I'm investigative, are visited you last night and set in fire, which maybe you didn't get killed bc of jeanne?? Dave is scum.

arosn is delayed. it has to douse first. it ignites night after

so your claiming lookout thats good to know that means we have to mayn claims in too many catagories. ill make a lit in a min of everyons fittings

[ika]

@ika, were you blocked? Yes or no?

how am i suppose to know? the mod didnt make it informed by my knowlage

According to Shiro, escorts give a message, just like the sc2 version.

So if you don't have a message, you or Jeanne is scum.

Its suppose to but looking at roles mod didnt make it explicit to give feedback.

I mena normay the feedback is "Someone occupied your night. You were roleblocked!"

its really funny with sk/veteran cus they get uniqe feedbacks

vet: someone came to occupy you, instead you pulled out your gun to take care of it.
sK: somoen tried to occupy you but you have other plans.......

[ika]

are we waiting in runner claim or no?

I'm about to head out for poker and beer but if we aren't I'll look at claims and coordinate actions after that

[ika]

imhungover.... im gonna do this maybe tonnight after work

[ika]

VOTE: dave

ican jsut talk at night i realized.....

i got work but after we have flip i can relay acitons and thoughts

[ika]

shiro should nto execute regardless though if runner is gf mostly due to the fact we can keep the nk in check and lynch entirely outside of it and contune

[ika]

shiro should nto execute regardless though if runner is gf mostly due to the fact we can keep the nk in check and lynch entirely outside of it and contune

If Shiro doesn't execute scum then scum controls the votes. When I flip town, Runner is confirmed scum, almost certainly Godfather. There are no Mafiosi either so no-one can make the nightkill until there's one scum left, who then becomes Mafioso.

I've thought about this enough because, when I'm the basically-certain lynch for the day, the most useful thing to do is find a way in which town can still win upon my death.

Forgot about that....

I'm bout to go into work so I will be around tonight

[ika]

bella is prob asleep or at work at this time

[ika]

oh assuming bella is a lookout she should target one of the 2 escort claimers just to make sure they follow suit

us criers have nothign to gain from it. runner could be watch to see if shiro does execute but it would be self told come tommorow

[ika]

Sorry Dave. That was just too good to pass up. Plus with Framer and Shiro conftown, I could force the lynch to you/Bella (Runner had to be jailed in case we were wrong).

I kinda was surprised that no one noticed how blatantly I was coaching Runner or how mafia killing could be kidnapper or Shiro could have jailed Runner to stop jester kill.

Worst case scenario, I would have scumslipped. Shiro executes Jeanne. Runner shoots Dave and we still win. (2 scum + judge v bins Hiplop and Bella).

i knew it all along i was jsut waiting for someone to realize it.

[ika]

I knew we were going toards a town win too at the rate we were going i jsut had to sit back for it,

I wont lie though that my play was very outside of my alginemtn and more based on my knowgaleg of a 1000+ games of playing this. the way i was playing was going to screw me over in the end if it went diffrently

[ika]

BTW next timme we play this i will be doign the same stuff reagrdless of alignemtn.

I will also be workign with netter to make sure the roles are up to the latest standrads

[ika]

also i do want to aplogize to ank and tth+anti for lynching you gusy, you were confirmed town but had to play towards my alignemtn on that aspect.

I did fell bad come the end of it abotu lynchign you guys

[ika]

Also ppl should sign up for my sc2 upick its going to be fun

[ika]

Ya the framer specualtion was a left feild that if i was town owuld of rammed lynched you for

[ika]

mostly... i'm frustrated that my reads were dead on and scum miraculously got a magical, improbable pr that let them p much dayvig me.

if i was outmaneuvered politically or if scum fooled me i'd be a lot less of a sore loser than i am now.

it was more a race against towv vs scum to get the first lynch

Ya the framer specualtion was a left feild that if i was town owuld of rammed lynched you for

that shouldn't have been able to happen, either

really it wasn't in aristophanes' best interest to vote with you, so i have no idea what the fuck happened there

Actualy it was. Ari would be cornered as arson in a heatbeat by the massclaim and also being an arson, removing confimred town or potential confirmed town is a + for arson

really the only joy i got out of this game was aristophanes getting dick-slapped in the face by cruel, random fate on night 1

I was so glad about that too

[ika]

I have no idea how I have so much charisma as scum and next to none as town in 90% of my games.

I did try to address the whole "moved votes" thing as scum being confused/wanting vig shield alive. I had to buy time for runner.

On Day 2, I cared little if I got lynched because I had faith Shiro jails Jeanne. Runner kills.

fun fact: next game what wont be happenign cus im gonna help netter fix all the role to the current stadards.

1 is being jailro cant jail on lynch.
another will be crier is unique role

pedit: i never got a notification

[ika]

it was more a race against towv vs scum to get the first lynch

oh that's a fair race when scum have multivoters and FEWER PEOPLE

never said it was a fair race anti

i mean you got dellenn to l-2 so i wouldnt be complainging

[ika]

I have no idea how I have so much charisma as scum and next to none as town in 90% of my games.

I did try to address the whole "moved votes" thing as scum being confused/wanting vig shield alive. I had to buy time for runner.

On Day 2, I cared little if I got lynched because I had faith Shiro jails Jeanne. Runner kills.

fun fact: next game what wont be happenign cus im gonna help netter fix all the role to the current stadards.

1 is being jailro cant jail on lynch.
another will be crier is unique role

pedit: i never got a notification

Crier can't sign in that instance unless it is exclusive with Mayor/Marshall. Two ICs for town would be OP.

crier is unique as in only one can exist and ames cant take it.

mayor/mashall can exist but only one or the other

pedit: that, the random generated so there is no garentted in ballance. i mean this game should of been town stomp. we only won due to sheer lukc and time crunk

pedit2: actualy i wouldnt, like i said i played 1000+ of this variations and you cna be right all you like it doesnt change stuff. im nto downplaying your right reads im jsut saying that it was close for a while

[ika]

Tbh, I know you stuck your neck out. I didn't think it mattered but I did try faking you as the jury post. I think we all knew you were judge though.

I know that nobody did anythign though after we got heartless lynched.

Te correct play was to not lynch me either on day 2

[ika]

Anyway I'ma just gonna pimp PUN MAFIA a bit more because 2 pre-ins left guyz! Super cool and stuffs and

PUNS

!

Ill do it if you sign for my large thats in signups right now

Extends to anyone who wants to have smoe more fun

[ika]

When you're complaining about lack of balance in a game with Role-Madness kinda roles randomly generated in all sorts of possibilities, you're doing something wrong.

I disagree. I don't think role madness has to mean unbalanced or unfair.

I like the roles for this game, but maybe there could be some sort of "balancing system" like C9++ and JK9++ have.

wee in sc2 mafia mod they have a thing called a weight system now where it can generate the probabilty of a seid role appreand and change the odds of a role appreaing

i could prob get the math behind it if i wanted to but im not that far into it

[ika]

I think the mafia were significantly overpowered in this particular setup. They had an extra kill with the kidnapper, an extra member in the judge, and a way to hijack one of the town's lynches.

I think if there ends up being a judge, scum should get significantly less power or town should get significantly more.

well actualy kidnapper/jailor shouldnt be able to jail when lynch occurs

[ika]

i think judge should be moved up to full blown scum role instead of neutral

No its shouldnt. its very weak overall.

if you change marshall for mayor jsudge is indefintely weaker. also give it that i have to live to endgame and if i die at any poitn (btw if its not clear im not night immune) i also lose

jsudge has very little power in the end other then being anonmous player who can speak for scum

pedit: netter is right we remove multi lyncha dn tell me how much power jusge has

[ika]

also jsuge main thing is to counter a crier cus if crier exist they jsut talk at night and confirm themselfs.

even if they take a lynch away it can still end up on scum. just look at the game here you guys nearly had me on lynch judges i very flickel

[ika]

In original setup at sc2mafia Jailor/Kidnapper can't jail/kidnap if there was a lynch.
However, MS meta is to never go for a no-lynch so this will just render these roles VT.
I think, the lynch should make them not be able to execute someone while still able to jail.

i dissagree mostl cus as it happend in this game, gf gets jailed its cornered to remove scums power. lynch is the thing that removes jailros true power and thats the jailing

[ika]

ika, with all due respect, what the fuck are you talking about?

even w/o marshall, a scum team + judge can theoretically win with just one "not groupscum" lynch.

Im talkign about how judge came into existance and its primary reason for exstisting in the first place.

your still missing the big picutre here though that there are about 4 diffrent counters to judge to begin with that i can think of

1) vig
2) lynch
3) night kill
4) not being able to be an existable role

i mean what were to happen if we lycnhed delann first or get scum lynched or jester killed the gf?

what happens when arson still existed and jsut decided to burn me instead?

there so many other incitdents where judge is the weak role out of it that it is deserving to be neutral

[ika]

Probably the increased vote power should be reduced to balance this role.

I think next time judge should have 2 votes instead of 3. it should mirror on mayor though if you go though with it.

[ika]

1) vig
2) lynch
3) night kill
4) not being able to be an existable role

you can say this for literally any role you can imagine.

that doesn't make the role any less overpowered.

and you can theorycraft all day about shoulda' woulda' coulda'. when you give town no room for error, you're going to see town... not winning a lot.

is there a statistic for how often town wins when there's a judge in the setup from your homesite?

not for killing neutrals they get immunites so should i now give witch/autior and all other immunites and make vig useless?

it does, judges being imminue would be insaely op cus if you get a bunch of killing or get targeted you lsoe if your killed

town prob wins a good 40% of the time, other times it goes to mafia and derps cus its a bunch of trolls

as for judge win out of the 600ish games i played when it existed i have seen about 30 of those win.

most time they get nked, they get lycnhed, they will call court and get lycnhed, they get killed by scums. the few times i have seen them win was either:

A)town all dying to vet
B) scum massure cus "lolz 3 sk"
C) 10 judges and 4 scums and one town or some shit stup like that

[ika]

@Antihero

The problem is the Scum does not know who is the Judge.
And Judge does not know who is the Scum either.
The skills of determining each other is the key to playing Judge to its full power.
Putting Judge into the Scum actually empowers him rather than weakens.

judge doesn't have to know who the scum are he just has to be cognizant of the numbers.
scum accidentally bussing the judge isn't going to happen often so relying on that to balance things out... isn't going to balance things out.

like i said, judge gets nked more often by the scum team cus they are playing wlel and they dont know,

go get sc2 and play a could hundred games and you will relaize true imballance

pedit: again what happens if we lynched delann and you and jester killed another scum? does that make jusgde still oped? or not as much

[ika]

pedit: again what happens if we lynched delann and you and jester killed another scum? does that make jusgde still oped? or not as much

so in order to win this game i had to have dismantled the spiffeh wagon FIRST THING or else i'm fucked.

that's kind of an unreasonable thing to put on town.

not really? you could of let that lynch though, stay off it and be safe form jester.

anti i get your angle and what you are saying but im going to speak form expericne that makng a jusge an indepentent scum is very very impracitacal unless if you plan on bosting its power immensely

[ika]

if a judge can manage to call court and get lynched, he called court at the wrong time

in here maybe, in game of sc2 mafia mod? no

in there its 99% random lynch when it goes to that cus judge will be shouting and scum will be shouting back to it

[ika]

like here in a long timeframe jusgde can full on cordinate.

in the short timeframe of sc2 mafia mod jusge had very little time to cordinate

pedit: i like, i would do same for mashall too jsut so it works same way

[ika]

you don't make your roles op'd with the assumption that your players are incompetent...

/sigh

you cant cover every base anti and you should knwo that.

the game is made ofr a 30 mins of entertainment. old times the game was very very imba cus nearly every role could be confirmed by an action

pedit: if you says o anti im not goign to argue smatic

what netter said also judge and neutral tend to die n1s most times

[ika]

In sc2mafia there is also another mechanic:
first day is lynchless and has significantly reduced length.
This may as well be improving balance for Judge and other neutral roles.

actualy most time there was a no lynch day 1 with a very short time

you cant cover every base anti and you should knwo that.

EXACTLY.

ESPECIALLY AS TOWN BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT.

but you had enough to go on to solve it. it jsut didnt work out

anti you guys had a reace against the clock to lynch me or a scum. that was something thats 100% player dependednt

[ika]

the game is made ofr a 30 mins of entertainment.

...and, with this, i think we come to the root of the issue.

if you're doing this over the span of a marathon game, everyone's on anyway so that really nerfs the court because it puts town on even ground in terms of the "who's on" game.

the court, on a fundamental level, really fucks with the "low and slow" game style on MS that emphasizes day play.

That i will not disagree with personally.

I think the nerf that netter will make to the judge will fix it but i still think judge is fine on the level that it is a neutral evil and not a true evil. its not that powerful to take on that expectations

pedit ill mod a large of this one day jsut so it can be hilariosu fun

[ika]

pedit ill mod a large of this one day jsut so it can be hilariosu fun

I'll apply for modding a large game of this setup after participating in your large theme to fulfill the requirements.
Will be happy to have you as back up or co-op mod

find ppl for me then as well!

[ika]

I cant wait for netter next game....

If my upick doesnt fill ill just prob run a 15p of this setup so it can be true sc2.

i wonder if i should add in the heart attack mechanic......