Prozac's Basic Theme 4 - Murder in Marlowe - OVER!

[catboi]

i want to talk about RVS wagons

how high should they go? how long should they stay?

i personally enjoy them quite a bit but now i'm also bored by this attempt to get conversation going and just want to do it

Personally I'm starting to be of the opinion that they blow

I'll take Marquis for town.

Good one.

ChannelDelibird why don't you like the Reck wagon?

Hate to pick on him, but this is a question from scum.

VOTE: Spiffeh


also 93 looks overexplain-y

[catboi]

Why do you think it's a question from scum?

sorry but I like the tell too much to explain it

[catboi]

Why do you think it's a question from scum?

sorry but I like the tell too much to explain it

Lol I know for a fact you would not let this shit fly if the roles were reversed.

Damn. I mean, that's not entirely accurate but, damn.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Reckoner

[catboi]

Is the tell shitting out of your mouth

because its what you're doing

Please, it's too early on a Friday night for me to already be doing that~

[catboi]

Why do you think it's a question from scum?

sorry but I like the tell too much to explain it

Lol I know for a fact you would not let this shit fly if the roles were reversed.

You know I just checked and this isn't even true, you got on my tail for naked voting in our other game.

but a quick bit of research suggests the tell I had and don't want to explain doesn't quite fit in your case, anyway

[catboi]

Later in the game when there's #content to draw from, sure. When a game's still in its early stages and there's not a lot of substance, I'm not going to go all in on explaining a read because it's going to bog the game down, and I might decide quickly that it's not alid reasoning (which is what just happened here!).

But seriously, you complained about me not explaining my early vote in that game, go check

(this line of discussion feels terribly unproductive but I don't want to leave it unanswered)

[catboi]

Pff okay man

[catboi]

catboi is town.
blackberry likely town.
spiffeh could be town. (reread post 60 for the 3rd time in context and i'm liking it a lot more, even more than i liked it reading it the 2nd time)
notscience could be town.
i want to believe nexus is town. this is a townread on him with shoddy mysterious feels.

Agreed about Blackberry, his first post feels genuine and not like something he'd start the game with as scum. I kind of liked the way Spiffeh came back at me on page 6, would lean town there.

Flameaxe is a jerk but he's town.

[catboi]

Wagon was abandoned too soon, IMO

[catboi]

That's a really bad post

[catboi]

At this point, it's right in line with my general play.

True. But he said his reasoning was in his last post. Ignoring that is...questionable.

[catboi]

Probably.

I agree with catboisarian2

ps the your mom jokes are meaningless for reads stop it

I think the sentiment was thats scotmany wasn't saying anything substantive, which, sure, but also it's page 7 of a large game, so I'm not really going to care if someone is low-content right now.

[catboi]

Been waiting to comment on the SC wagon because in large part I just don't get it and was waiting to see how it developed. I think a lot of the early posts people got on him for weren't bad and seemed playstyle-ish. 113 doesn't read great, don't know the exact word to describe it but the tone seems off. But then on a look back, 118 looks kind of town to me in that it's sort of a "come at me bro" response. Past that, a lot of this seems to be trying to torture something out of very little.

I fully accept that I might be dumb and completely missing something that other people are smart enough to see but I haven't understood it yet

[catboi]

I'm still voting reck. Said post 93 felt like he was overexplaining his vote, his responses since then haven't looked town

[catboi]

You played one game with me. It was also a 9p, not a large - it's naturally going to be easier for me to drill down and attack someone in a smaller player list. Here I'm taking it a little bit easy, looking for things to progress.


p.s. I'm a cocky bastard as scum

[catboi]

I'm still voting reck. Said post 93 felt like he was overexplaining his vote, his responses since then haven't looked town

oh so overexplanation is a scumtell? go on (｡◕‿‿◕｡)

Yeah? Felt like you said way too much to justify a quasi-RVS type vote in an attempt to defuse suspicion. Came across as a bit nervous.

[catboi]

i think your avatar is gay as heck

Thanks~

vote catboi

This feels right. He says he's a cocky bastard as scum but there's a far bit of posturing going on in this game so far.

Will add more thoughts later. Writing a book review rn.

Lol nope

[catboi]

I'm just going to walk you through clearly and concisely because this is getting annoying and I want to make sure everyone sees how scummy you are.

- Post 113 is where you vote for me because you didn't like my reaction to Marquis' case.
- In post 121 I reply by pointing you to a post I made 8 MINUTES after the one you quoted, thus COMPLETELY nullifying your argument of "this is your defense to Marquis?" because NO it was NOT!
- The next course of action I'd expect town to take would be to realize that they were wrong and reevaluate. To make a post that CLARIFIES your read on me, whatever it may be, since your original reason for voting for me held no weight.
- You respond with post 132 which tells me jack shit about what you think of me now that your original argument is void, and lies about me not posting immediately (8 MINUTES is not immediate enough apparently) to boot!
- In post 134 I ask if you're still scum reading me (albeit quite sassily). You never against address why you're scum reading me. In post 149 you actually respond to the second part of that very same post, so I know you saw it.

I made an effort to understand your reason for voting for me. You ignored it. Now you're trying to turn that around on me by calling it a misrep because I made an assumption on something you refused to clarify. That is not town behavior. Your reason for scum reading me between posts 121 and whenever AJ throws you a bone with his misrep case is unaccounted for and something you need to explain.

In other news, I really like the color of your name!

This feels genuine and I like the

try

of this post, would feel comfortable calling spiffeh town here. I do agree 113 is bad and looks worse reading this explanation but I just can't be sure this isn't a misunderstanding on at least some level. I don't know.

[catboi]

Here's something that's a safe thing to assume: If I'm still voting you, then I'm still scumreading you. Now here's something that isn't: If my original reason for voting you is invalid, it doesn't mean I agree with Marquis. You have been asked repeatedly to show how you drew the conclusion that I do, and I still have not received a satisfactory answer. And THAT is why I am still voting you.

dude

what?

[catboi]

i don't like how you're trying to throw out extremely stretchy associatives between me and spiffeh on page 7, after you've criticized my own stretchy case

Also, this is a strange reaction to my post. What exactly dont you like about the above? You made a stretchy ass case on spiff, but then abandoned it for little to no reason.

to me..that seems like you really didnt believe it (seems like theater). IF Spiff DOES flip scum, that vote/unvote is suspicious. So that I am clear, you dont see how ANYONE could view that suspiciously? Now in that same post, I mentioned..."hey it's day 1..everything is stretchy" but the timing in which you unvoted seemed....off...and this reaction...more so.

VOTE: ckd

[catboi]

The posts stating he had reads but not saying them were unorthodox, usually tend to associate unortodox play with town play although it's not a strong thing and I wasn't certain of it, myself. I thought the post telling bins to do stuff or die read town.

[catboi]

i think i might just have a problem with him/his play expectations being old and stodgy and stuff.

I get that to an extent but the post i quoted when I voted him felt...soapboxy? I definitely understand there was a playstyle clash there, but the way he attacked felt overdramatic in a way that was uncomfortable for me. Felt like he was trying too hard to make things you were doing seem bad. Had hoped he'd react to my vote but didn't get anything.

[catboi]

Tbh I think catboi might be scum this game.

Nah

[catboi]

ckd's pushing on the townreads thing still bugs me but i need to catch up first

[catboi]

guys Davsto needs some motivation can people plz provide him some motivation

I don't think wagoning the new guy for not knowing what to say is particularly productive.

gimme a bit to settle in. reminder to self to check spiffeh first though

legitimately pretty confident spiffeh is town at this point. Him seeing I'm playing differently from the other game we played in, and assuming I must be scum because of it, feels like it's genuine cognitive bias. I don't know that he'd try to fake pressure on me like that as scum.

For everyone, so is it normal now to just list out your town reads? Like I barely know how I feel about everyone else, other than pure gut, save for those that I am suspicious of. Not to mention that I haven't played here in forever, so even those that I played with before will take me a while to get used to again.

This question vs. ckd's response to people naming town reads feel worlds apart. There's legit curiosity here, not grandstanding and trying to paint a behavior as scummy without examining the motivations of those doing it.

Anyway, I haven't really played here that much, but I think townhunting is a perfectly valid and legitimate strategy, so long as it's done properly - real towntells are stronger than scumtells, and process of elimination works for weeding out scum. I'm used to smaller games but I think in a large game it's harder to bear down on specific people as scummy with so much to read. If you get some good townreads and lynch everyone who you're unsure of, you'll win. Assuming you pick them for good reasons, anyway.


I don't know that I necessarily agree with every townread that's been said but I want more to look at things myself rather than nitpick at a read I don't understand.

[catboi]

I don't think that's necessarily true

[catboi]

I think starbuck's play is genuine even if I disagree with almost every read she's said

[catboi]

I see.

Do you think ckd attacking me over sharing townreads feels genuine? Because that sounds like one of those fake reasons to scumread someone and I understand different times are different and it could be a playstyle clash, but I think his push on me is really weird especially considering you asked for them.

I did some homework and in his last completed game I could find (BSG mafia) he didn't throw nearly as much of a fit about people stating their town reads

[catboi]

are you fucking kidding me

he didn't even read what I said how the FUCK can you call that genuine?

can we plz ban all users who use the word "genuine" starting from here on out

I mean I can't really point to anything specific (that's not hopelessly mundane) but it feels like a real effort at scumhunting. I'm slightly prebiased because of their first post but it comes across like she's really trying to go through the thread and observe/interpret/react to what's going on, while she thinks differently from me I can look at her posts and see how a player might think what she's saying. I think she's not seeing eye to eye with you? It doesn't look like a malicious disagreement where she's trying to pick on you. I think if someone didn't buy the thing about Coug not interacting with people then a response like hers makes sense

I know that's a really wordvomity and vague explanation but I'm just not seeing whatever you are.

[catboi]

holy crap I don't know if I'm going to be able to keep pace with all this

[catboi]

hhmm, there is a distinct possibility that starbuck and I have different interpretations of "interactions" cos I don't count the fluff. I still say she is reading the game on a surface level.

That might just be arising from a difference in perception is the thing. Like I said I don't agree with most of her conclusions but it does feel like a real attempt to read the game.

unvote

clearly just me that thinks the posturing is coming from scum.

will post thoughts this evening.

I'm bugged by how Nexus just abandoned this vote on me. Like it's just, "oh okay no one will follow me". He didn't react to my later posts, he didn't question others, or seem to react when marquis explained his read of me. It just looks like he backed down because no one was following him and that doesn't seem like a town thing to do.

Which part wasn't meta-based? From what I read he was saying "I expect town!Mollie to do X but in this game she did Y so I think she's scum" which is like core meta gameplay. What am I missing.

Meh. I was not happy with how Mollie took one thing CDB said (I always scumread her), while CDB actually linked to some posts, explained how her reasoning/reactions seemed off. Like, it seemed like she ignored all the actual analyses from CDB. Bad job of explaining from me.

Kind of agree with this post. Don't know what to make of a lot of what she posts, CDB's analysis toward his scumreads looked good, her response seems to be trying to draw him out over something oddly nitpicky

[catboi]

Davsto's catchup post is underwhelming. It doesn't look like he's really attempting to analyze anyone. After so much promises, he gives...that? It just looks like some quick stream of consciousness reactions without a lot of thought.

[catboi]

no. I am saying the exact opposite of that. I think you tossed out the games cos I called you on it w/o giving very much thought about them. I can keep repeating myself on this while you come up with new and interesting ways to misinterpret it if you want.

Why do you think he'd lie about meta as scum, and to what end?

[catboi]

that is a really stupidly worded question i just asked lol

[catboi]

I am not responding to any1 else's posts if they contain the word "lying" or asking dumbshit that has already been answered and I am looking at you catboi.

Well if you have answered it I haven't understood it. Is it that hard to help me out?

[catboi]

@mollie: Okay. I had trouble reading the orgiginal quote striped post. Still, I don't think I can see what he's doing as a plausible scum play and your response seems disproportionate. The idea of making up a meta on someone as scum just seems very much implausible, I think he'd base it on legitimate memories. I also don't know that him being sloppy and misremembering is any more likely to come from him as scum than as town - he'd be just as susceptible to it either way. That your interpretation assumes he

must

be lying is really strange.

He's also right in that you're focusing on the meta bit of his post and not his assessment of what you've done in-thread, which is what's actually important. It feels like canned outrage.

I debated in my head a few dozens times whether not not I was going to actually do this when I was making this post:

VOTE: pirate mollie


Also, just realized I was mixing up starbuck and blackberry in my head and that was what I was referring to with talking about their first post. I feel dumb. I'd need to go over her again but she still hasn't said anything that struck me as bad.

[catboi]

Okay, I didn't word that great. But you said he lied about meta, with the idea being he just sort of made a casual statement about him fighting with you in the past? I'm still not seeing where this comes from him being scum.

[catboi]

I'm not trying to be obtuse I swear

[catboi]

its like I type words and somehow you don't understand what they mean.

I used to love this game.

I'm sorry, I swear I'm really trying to understand. You shouldn't be getting so worked up on day 1 of a game. :<

Ultimately though I think he's just as likely to have had a vague/inaccurate memory as town and I don't think it matters at all so I'll just accept I'm not seeing eye to eye with you.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Nexus

ckd's last few posts were maybe a little better though I still don't really townread him

Catboi seriously something is up with you. You have been so wishy-washy this entire game it's really unsettling.

Spiffeh, I am trying to reduce my intensity level to like 40% of what I've done in the past because I don't want to stress myself and don't want to be a drag. I found playing the way I did wasn't fun so I wanted to relax more. I don't think I've been wishy-washy at all except on this mollie vote just now. I think I've been pretty clear about how I'm reading people.

[catboi]

Maybe I'm a sucker, but mollie's emotional crap doesn't look fake to me and I think some people might be trying to wind her up in the hope she gets herself lynched.

lame's posting is vitriolic and silencing to other players by mocking content, most notably of Marquis when Marquis was providing a clearly protown drive that influenced the beginning of real gameplay (not that Marquis's push on SC was correct, but Marquis was a vocal protown player that was posting content).

He's been generally over-aggressive and demeaning to multiple players in the game including Starbucks, and PM, with minimal, but Flameaxe-directed provocation.

How is any of this supposed to relate to him being scum? It's more of a case of him being a jerk than anything, and his attitude makes it seem more likely that he's town, if anything. What part of being "over-aggressive and demeaning" equates to him being scum?

I think I have a decent idea of the game now, I've sorta slipped in. I'll try and be more town, but ya know.

VOTE: AJ I'm not liking him much.

Holy smokes this is bad.

I think davsto might have dropped a really really stupid towntell in another post, though. Not going to go into it right now.

reading now. up to p7 and angry at myself for removing my catboi vote


can genuinely see catboi+spiffeh scumteam and it's really worrying me.

Lmao

This is so silly I don't know that it would come from scum. He's reaching, and he's wrong, but does he reach that hard for a case as scum? Maybe not. Hate his reads list, though. Lean town on all his scum reads.

UNVOTE:

lead by example. or is being a hypocrite like a warm blanket? Who is scum? Why. (yeah yeah I got that your vote is on me, so put a case out there for me then)(EDIT post 607 votes with a case )(EDIT post 617, nope just votes, now I want that nexus vote reasoning)

Had explained earlier that I didn't like the way Nexus unvoted me, or his explanation. I didn't have a strong suspicion at the time so I just went to something I'd called out earlier. I'm trying to play a bit relaxed but I am giving my input where I feel like I can say something, where davsto had a whole lot of nothing.

I give up, mollie you might be right about the new way things are done. but again, i have played in some "new" games and I have not seen this amount of smoke blowing before....at least I dont recall that I have. I mean, I don’t feel like I am a paranoid player, but there are like only 2 people in the game total that I feel good about.

funny enough, I actually agreed with this (in reaction to MattP's list of townreads) - it's one thing when someone drops a townread in obvious reaction to something, but big underexplained lists with no context do nothing for me whatsoever because they're the easiest thing in the world to fake. Call some people town, people generally are going to agree, it looks like a contribution but didn't really take much. Context is king, without any there's nothing to like from a list.

VOTE: MattP

Underwhelmed by the replace in stuff, vote on flameaxe looks like it's for non-alignment-ish stuff and doesn't speak to a believable scumhunting process. Think flameaxe's rudeness comes across as a town sort of arrogance - a lot of it was unprovoked, he's not trying to appeal to people or anything.

[catboi]

On a reread of his ISO, I could be tempted to vote AJ. His tunnel on spiffeh doesn't really look believable, it looks a bit like scum taking a singular focus in the early game to avoid commenting on anyone else. Vote on Flameaxe was also not good.

[catboi]

Actually you know what?

VOTE: AJ

[catboi]

Can we not do this? Please? This dispute is only going to impact the game negatively.


Anyway, to expand a bit I feel like flameaxe looks like the type of player scum THINK they can push a lynch on, and I think AJ stepped right into that

[catboi]

VOTE: MattP

StrangerCoug still holds the record for "scummiest behavior itg" so he should be the first lynch. I also agree with a lot of what catboi said regarding him.

Also Davsto is voting for AJ which makes me uncomfortable keeping my vote there.

Btw Davsto you're probs scum too.

I don't know if reading someone off someone else voting them is a great strategy at this point in the game, for a number of reasons (maybe you're wrong and they're underwhelming town, maybe he's distancing badly). Probably better off to just look at your individual read of someone

Anyway I'll do a post with more content once I catch up.

[catboi]

Spiffeh: I'm not sure I believe it as strongly as you do but the slot is certainly in the category of people I'd lynch this game. I actually liked the AJ read more now that I bothered to look at him.

I thought there was going to be more content than I ended up with. Was expecting another spike in activity but the last page is just mostly nothing I even find worthy of remarking on

I liked davvyboy's early stuff and I don't think newer scum players would avoid the thread when stuff was going down like he did, I think they would be hocked up on newbscumdrenaline and try to stir the pot

That's a really odd assessment given I think as scum he might see the amount of content and choke up because he doesn't know how to fake something that looks believable. Of course town can struggle to contribute too, but you're more likely to see it coming from scum.

Not liking curiouskarmadog's post that he made a few pages back. A lot of his comments that he made on things... basically meant nothing. Looks like he's trying to appear to help but is actually just saying a whole lotta nothing.

What's this supposed to mean? You can't say stuff like this and not provide examples.

I honestly dunno what to do with this game right now.

I feel like we need a do-over.

It's stalled out weirdly but given the time that's passed probably a good time to start sorting things out and trying to get people to consolidate? I've been playing casually and haven't really organized my thoughts at all, think I'll try to do that in the next couple days

[catboi]

modding a game and posting in one are two very different effort levels, why are you trying to use that as an argument for him avoiding the thread?

[catboi]

I'm not sure what the towntell is that I'm supposed to be seeing there

[catboi]

There are far better people to lynch (hint: AJ), and also you should not get your feelings hurt over something like that

[catboi]

Wheeee

Let's hope my bf Ryan saves me or something, wouldn't want him to be lonely in this hotel.

Actually I might as well ask this: Davsto, what did you mean by this post?

[catboi]

@Mod: You haven't changed the deadline time in vote count posts since the start of the game.

It's on an automated timer, it changes in real-time and is accurate to whenever you refresh

[catboi]

no matter how much i disagree with him, i don't think scum would exhibit such a strong, blatant sense of indignation with the way people are choosing to play the game. like, he's not even that relatively concerned about what people's reads are as scum are, not when compared to how damn pouty he is about people not doing things the right way. and i really don't think a scum!ckd, with his kind of old-style mafia background, allows himself to spend so much time griping about improper play (regardless of alignment i think he believes the whole don't-say-townreads-or-mafia-will-kill-them thing too and would appreciate those actions a bit more as scum).

I absolutely think his belief is genuine, I just think maybe assuming he wouldn't spend so much time griping as scum seems naive. That's not even to say I really scumread him, I don't think I do right now (need to check). Just that I'm not sure any of that type of behavior is really a towntell because it can be done fairly easily as scum. This is a lot of words to say "I dunno" but I felt like I needed to address this anyway

Flavour crap, wanted to see how people potentially reacted.

well you being cognizant of it sort of ruins it. this still seems like a thing inexperienced town would do but bleh.

@scotmany:

yeah, this was the dumb towntell thing i was talking about. assumption was an inexperienced town pler might say that stuff thinking it's meaningful in some way

Lol. "Could be tempted", "Doesn't really", "looks a bit". AND THEN SUDDENLY: Far better.

You have a super non-committal post on why I'm scum and then seem to suddenly become really convinced of it. Why the difference in conviction?

I literally voted you 3 minutes after the first post I quoted. to not quote it is at best neglect, at worst deliberately deceptive

my confidence grew because the gears in my head turned and I said "you know WHAT" because that's how my mind works with scumhunting and my thoughts evolve over time

[catboi]

stretchy case on Spiff....but it is day 1..everything is stretchy.

and...I wouldnt be surprised if that vote on Spiff was theater (what exactly changed to remove said stretchy case vote?)....which also makes me wonder about Spiff.

MattP - 3 - Flameaxe, Spiffeh, Marquis

just saying.

Hate to break it to you, but I think everyone on that wagon is town.

Anyway, going to try to scratch together a ~case~ on AJ tonight. Reads sometime tomorrow hopefully.

[catboi]

okay. I swear I've seen scum take a similar demeanor in games before, but I'm not interested in pursuing a lynch on him since how he acts on things is going to matter more. so I'll leave it at this for now since it doesn't matter.


It's too late for me to claw together a full case on AJ but I do want to point out he's spent an inordinate amount of the game focusing on Spiffeh and not really interacting with anyone else. I think picking a single target and just pushing is an easier way for scum to get by than having to look like they're genuinely reading + evaluating the whole thread and that's what it looks like he was doing here especially since the basis for it was kind of flimsy anyway i'll elaborate tomorrow

[catboi]

I literally voted you 3 minutes after the first post I quoted. to not quote it is at best neglect, at worst deliberately deceptive

my confidence grew because the gears in my head turned and I said "you know WHAT" because that's how my mind works with scumhunting and my thoughts evolve over time

Disagree that quoting vote is needed. But putting that as part of your case is certainly 'scratching'. You were completely unsure about it when you vote me and then you become strongly committed to endorsing it. Your confidence might have 'grown', but it isn't reflected in your rhetoric. You're all over the place, because now the best you can do is 'scratch together a case'.

hahahaha don't try to weasel on this about my use of language. Read was unsure, became more confident in my head. Not hard to understand at all.

[catboi]

169 is the first real content post from AJ, which he jumps the spiffeh wagon because he said "Maybe you'll do more with more pressure?". Spiffeh's actual reasoning for SC though is that SC seemed unwilling to really attack the people on his wagon, seizing upon him calling the vote "weak" is a really minor nitpicky sort of thing that ignores the larger context of what he said. sort of similar to how he's responding to me, AJ engages in semantics more than looking at the actual meaning of the post.

From here he spends an inordinate amount of time on Spiffeh, ignoring the pretty much anything else going on. I think this is behavior of someone who dsoesn't know how to engage with most of the thread, but is trying to appear active by essentially focusing on one thing. Most of what he says just doesn't seem like worthwhile arguments. There's a real lack of insight.

Actually not sure why he takes issue with the idea of "waiting for a wagon to blow over" in 177 because I don't think that's unreasonable at all, nor is calling out SC's lack of commentary.

So much of his argument is based on this piddling argument over reactions/SC's reasoning for his vote, which seems trivial and not altogether telling, see: 182 198 200. These posts make it seem like AJ is trying to catch spiffeh with word games, rather than understand spiffeh's intent of his vote (that SC voted him for a reaction while ignoring a post he made 8 minutes later)

AJ avoiding commentary on SC in 362 is also bad, claims his interest in in spiff's "inconsistency" but has seemingly no interest in arguments he's actually making against SC. Total refusal to comment on anything else in the game on a tunnel that doesn't really show a lot of conviction.

The argument in 370 is especially ad, he's going to great lengths to claim spiff "lied" about SC's original reason for voting him when there's no reason to assume he didn't just misunderstand it, he's stretching incredibly hard to try to make this into something worthy of commentary. Continually dismissive of SC's wagon in 377 without bothering to make a read on him whatsoever. It's also really not hard at all to assume from the quoted SC post that SC liked marquis's post and felt spiff's response was underwhelming, that seems a perfectly natural assumption, AJ attempting repeatedly to trap spiff on it is horridly scummy because he's leaving no room for flexibility of interpretation.

continued tunneling in 382 393 517 525, with only some unexplained town reads thrown in with basically no reasoning attached. seems more like obligatory content than real reads, the way he lists them off.

I'm not even going to continue linking, he just continues to assert that spiffeh is ignoring a question and that this is HORRIDLY scummy when it's raelly not strong reasoning at all and he seems to be ignoring anything else going on, including spiff's play past that point. He just seems to have latched on to onwe thing and keeps picking at it, regardless of result. Town can tunnel, but the conviction here doesn't seem believable at all and more like he's arguing in bad faith.


653 is the only place where he posts anything else that's significant content-wise, and it's not very good. He tries to play peacemaker in the mollie-CDB argument, but doesn't really offer much in the way of meaningful insight or commentary.

Says he "doesn't like" 585 by CDB, but that's because he doesn't think it's a useful type of post, which is a stuipid comment to make, especially because it's just a rhetorical tool CDB is using for his defense (and the post makes a fair deal of sense). Stupid. It's AJ asserting some ideology over how to play the game rather than saying anything useful.

"This isn't scum Mollie and I disagree with catboi/reck and star to a lesser extent for being on her right now. I say star is different because I understand her frustration at having to wait for questions and she's probably disenfranchised by the first part of 609." is also an incredibly stupid thing to say. He apparently disagrees less with starbuck on her scumread of the same person, because he felt her frustration was genuine. That somehow makes her read more valid than others' of the same person? (I also think I'd backed down from mollie at this point, though that's less important)



Worst of all though is his vote on Flameaxe because he "has nothing in their iso that I like." It's a weak, trashy vote that I think he made to look like he was following the thread and had some semblance of a purpose. Like I've said before, I think Flameaxe looks like an easy wagon for scum because his posts are short and there's a lot of filler, so scum might skim him and think he looks like an easy mislynch if you're not reading carefully and looking for town intentions. The way AJ pushes that vote looks more like opportunism on a a wagon that might be budding than town that thinks they've found someone



This ended up being way too many words and not all of them are great, probably, but it's harder for me to highlight the overall trend of his play which just does not look town motivated whatsoever. really I should say just go look at his ISO if you have a hard time following this

[catboi]

aj - he can sometimes have this myopic vision of the game where he will focus on 1 player to the exclusion of others as either alignment. what I am really concerned about is the lack of enthusiasm. there is something missing here but I haven't seen his scum game in almost 3 years.

uhh do you have examples of this? because I just spent like a bunch of time describing this basically

[catboi]

I don't like that Davsto and MattP are voting for AJ

davsto is probably town having a bad game

matt's vote, though...yeah.

[catboi]

I am saying I am unsure on my read on him so I am little confused as to why you expect me to defend a read that I am unsure on? or am I misreading what you are saying?

I wasn't asking you to defend it so much as provide me examples, because he's spent most of this game on a pretty bad tunnel. If that's typical behavior for him, I'll have to re-think my read.

Not tonight, though. Too late for that now~

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: MattP

Davsto still feels low percentage

[catboi]

I procrastinated today which is generally not a good sign for my motivation but hopefully I get back on track tomorrow. Sorry!

Where do you see this? Everything from him seems extremely ingenuine. I point back to his reads list where he just cherry picked little instances to provide some semblance of thought. I really don't see his thought process coming from town. He has continually not done anything.

It was really weird that he'd go line by line through mollie's readlist but I don't know that it's especially scummy? fells like there's a little bit of try in it. I thought the flavor crap was something a noobish town player would do, but he seemed cognizant of it, so I don't know. A lot of his posts aren't great but they haven't stuck me as necessarily

scummy

, you know? Reading back, I could be wrong, but I don't think he'd be high on the list of people I need to lynch today.

[catboi]

I have really no idea how these two became the leading wagons, but I don't like it. mollie's response to me voting her didn't look like scumwhich is why I backed down because I didn't think she'd fake an emotional response like that to a stray vote early in day 1. I'm not even sure what the reasoning for the notscience wagon is.


At this point I'd probably vote Davsto. Didn't reread today because I had a slight headache, not sure I'd be able to deliver anything resembling effective reads in a game this size and with this much time, bleh. Might try at least. Do agree a lot with Marquis.

[catboi]

thinking back to early game i can vey easily see scumreck

He hasn't done anything worthy of a townread that some people gave him, that's for certain.

[catboi]

Could probably go for Matt or AJ if someone shows me a particularly compelling case - I definitely don't think Davsto is scum, and not particularly set on mollie, either.

here's a case

[catboi]

It's actually super weird that davsto has people bearing down on him for doing nothing, but mattp is similar levels of bad and has caught way less heat for it

[catboi]

I actually looked at thee town game mollie linked me on AJ, definitely see similar tunneling behavior there which makes my read not as strong, though I still didn't like his actual reads post.

[catboi]

catboi, how opposed to a ns lynch are you?

I haven't seen anything that looked like a real reason to lynch him, and his response over the last couple of pages didn't look like scum.

jesus fucking christ why is myko not dead yet

I don't have interest in lynching him even though most of what he's said I don't agree with in the slightest.

[catboi]

notscience - 5 - Nexus, Zito, Davsto, Flameaxe, scot

Nexus's vote is for stupid, silly reasons, and I trust his reads on the game worth nothing right now. So far as I can tell it's because he told bins to do thins or die, but in nexus's estimation, notscience hasn't done much himself.

Zito is sheeping that. Nothing else given.

Davsto is nothing. His vote is actually possibly the best, because he thinks notscience contradicted his reads, but I think the progression there doesn't feel unnatural and the fact he changed his reads rather than sticking to what he said earlier likely means his feelings are evolving with the thread.

flameaxe is sheeping off davsto's post. Still think he's town but nothing here.

and scotmany didn't like notscience saying he was ignoring people? Not sure why he's voting there.



This isn't a good wagon and it needs to be put down.

Also want to note that while I liked the way zito was questioning people early in the thread, he hasn't done much at all since.

[catboi]

Hey Zito, still scumreading Davsto?

[catboi]

But you're comfortable sharing the wagon with him, then?

[catboi]

Why wouldn't I be?

Would make some people nervous. The fact you don't find davsto pushing notscience or their interactions worthy of comment has me raising my eyebrow, though.

[catboi]

Right, okay. I can understand disliking that post but I'm not entirely sure asking to sheep there isn't a playstyle decision, rather than an alignment one. I care less about the reads list and more the overall feel of his response, this is somewhat of a gut thing so it would take some time for me to justify. (I actually just noticed his reads list did something I don't like but it's not something that would make me re-think)


BTW, I wasn't implying davsto being on the wagon discredits it. I am saying that a lack of commentary on what he's doing is very odd given the reads there.

[catboi]

marquis I am really not understanding how or why you thought blackberry was town. and to say that zito is experienced so "OMG CLD BE SCUM" doesn't match up when blackberry is a bit more?

I'm not him but I had similar thoughts to what he said here:

as for my blackberry townread, while that kind of circular rambling (94) is really easy to do as scum (it's pretty much my go-to method for scumplay), right now i'm at the point where i feel comfortable ignoring the WIFOM and going by the odds - that his blatant self-awareness is more likely town than scum

their first post just seemed like someone who hadn't played in a while, was genuinely unsure what to do. Didn't seem like a post they'd make as scum. I don't think you're going to gain traction for voting mykonian today.

[catboi]

Contrast it in what way? Not sure what you're asking of me.

[catboi]

Maybe I'm a sucker, but mollie's emotional crap doesn't look fake to me and I think some people might be trying to wind her up in the hope she gets herself lynched.

mollie literally get emotional in every game she has ever played this is pretty null (and also giving into ate)

I'm aware but I'm not in a place to care about it right now.

how did catboi's aj case not get more traction? it basically just happened then that was it

I'd probably have pushed it more if he hadn't immediately folded and quit the game. Basically impossible to get a replacement lynched in the timeframe we have unless they crap all over themselves. Though seeing him demonstrate tunnelvision as town in past games weakens the read somewhat.

catboi doesn't have a lot of credibility

I mean, how do you take someone named catboi seriously

>:(

Ok so feel free to call me dumb here, but why is mattp seeming to be everyone's go to right now. Like I haven't read so idk the case but given the way everyone is posing it seems kinda easy, you feel me?

It hasn't really been remotely easy. I'll try to dig up my objections to Matt, someone who was after SCoug should try to explain what they saw there because while I wasn't a fan of the slot I'd be lying if I said I had been actively scumreading it.

[catboi]

For whatever reason I'm laughing at this whole exchange on the last page

[catboi]

Maybe I'm a sucker, but mollie's emotional crap doesn't look fake to me and I think some people might be trying to wind her up in the hope she gets herself lynched.

lame's posting is vitriolic and silencing to other players by mocking content, most notably of Marquis when Marquis was providing a clearly protown drive that influenced the beginning of real gameplay (not that Marquis's push on SC was correct, but Marquis was a vocal protown player that was posting content).

He's been generally over-aggressive and demeaning to multiple players in the game including Starbucks, and PM, with minimal, but Flameaxe-directed provocation.

How is any of this supposed to relate to him being scum? It's more of a case of him being a jerk than anything, and his attitude makes it seem more likely that he's town, if anything. What part of being "over-aggressive and demeaning" equates to him being scum?

I give up, mollie you might be right about the new way things are done. but again, i have played in some "new" games and I have not seen this amount of smoke blowing before....at least I dont recall that I have. I mean, I don’t feel like I am a paranoid player, but there are like only 2 people in the game total that I feel good about.

funny enough, I actually agreed with this (in reaction to MattP's list of townreads) - it's one thing when someone drops a townread in obvious reaction to something, but big underexplained lists with no context do nothing for me whatsoever because they're the easiest thing in the world to fake. Call some people town, people generally are going to agree, it looks like a contribution but didn't really take much. Context is king, without any there's nothing to like from a list.

VOTE: MattP

Underwhelmed by the replace in stuff, vote on flameaxe looks like it's for non-alignment-ish stuff and doesn't speak to a believable scumhunting process. Think flameaxe's rudeness comes across as a town sort of arrogance - a lot of it was unprovoked, he's not trying to appeal to people or anything.

Right, this is what I'd said on MattP, which is maybe not that coherent but the whole gist of it is that I think Flameaxe is the sort of player scum would be drawn to trying to lynch and Matt's reasoning for voting him was fairly poor. I've seen people express a similar sentiment in the last few pages, think it's likely someone who voted him is scum, though I lean town on Bins. Might try to assemble something a little more coherent later.

[catboi]

So far as I can tell a lot of the mykonian wagon has been mollie OMGUSing him, giving him a read-over he's a little sparse but doesn't come across altogether scummy to me, and I liked Blackberry's post enough that I don't feel like lynching him.

catboi are you townreading me? If so why?

I lean that way though I'd likely need to some work before I could give a good explanation, your early game was unconventional in a way that didn't look like it was attempting to pick up towncred, and your response to pressure looked town. That's vague of course but it's late so I don't have time to fully explain and it feels weird giving a case for someone being town to that person, but I'll probably do it anyway. just not tonight.

[catboi]

I don't think Davsto was really "daring" people to vote him there at all. He was just complaining about people fos-ing him but not actually voting him, which I think someone of either alignment could do. I was somewhat defensive of him earlier, but I think his posts really haven't improved as the day's gone on.

[catboi]

I'm here and I don't have much to add except that MattP wagon gaining steam is good. I should probably parse some of those reads lists when I have more time (though I'm not sure I'm good at doing that). I looked over CDB's and while some of the reasoning didn't do a lot for me, I could relate to the overall sentiment of being unsure and don't think it would be too hard to manufacture a scum read in this game, so I guess overall I thought it was believable? i'm tired having trouble finishing thoughts

[catboi]

Spiffeh is TOWN and should LIVE FOREVER. Flameaxe is also likely town. I'm making shifty eyes at ckd and Starbuck, BUT I think that, psychologically, most people would see a scumbuddy like MattP at L-1, realize he's a dead man walking, and hammer. So I lean town there. Need to look back and find the people who were showing reluctance to vote that way throughout the day. Need to read back.

[catboi]

Ok so feel free to call me dumb here, but why is mattp seeming to be everyone's go to right now. Like I haven't read so idk the case but given the way everyone is posing it seems kinda easy, you feel me?

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[catboi]

I still lean towards believing mollie for the crumbing, persistence and general gamestate Yesterday, but given that we now know that Coug was dealing really awkwardly with being scum, I would be voting for mollie over these in a vacuum. Awkward scum players are more likely to give into the 50-50-feeling choice of 'do I or do I not open RVS with a vote for a buddy' and the hasty change onto Marquis would appear to chime with that possibility, but the fact that he also forgot that he wasn't voting for mollie any more makes voting for mollie look like more of a thing in his head.

I'm left not knowing what to think of it, ultimately, because mollie feels town overall but this ticks a lot of buddy boxes for me.

I put a lot less stock in this sort of interaction versus something later in the game, given how arbitrary these sorts of things are.He can choose to do whatever in RVS, any interpretation of something like that is going to be mostly guesswork.

[catboi]

Also do you have any thoughts on your wagon?

Not right now. I want to know what scotmany12 and Flameaxe are up to right now, but I'm a bit tired to think, and I don't think they're necessarily scum. They're not on the top of my town list, however.

Why? Out of the like...three other people..did you single me out?!?!?!?!

Because you stand out and I need to read you. Probably when my stomach decides it isn't at war with me.

So, this is interesting.

[catboi]

VOTE: mattP

Bins:

what was the reason you voted MattP, ultimately?

[catboi]

responses in bold

Not only is this really hard to read, I don't find most of the answers to be really satisfactory at all.

I don't really like Espeonage's slot for stuff I've already gone into, but I want to see some sort of reads from him - I'm a little uncomfortable with some of the people voting him right now and still have things I want to review

[catboi]

What were you hoping to accomplish by posting this? What made it interesting to you? I'm very interested in your thought process when you pointed this out.

What I was hoping to accomplish was pointing it out, so I don't forget about it. I'm still compiling reads. SC had very, very limited interactions/commentary, and him picking those 2 names is interesting.

[catboi]

50% proper 50% policy? Seems like you're ready to set yourself up for a defence when I flip town~

This post is trash.

guys i think cdb might be scum.

I probably don't agree with this.



Going to post reads as I work through them, had started Bins last night, sort of summarized how I feel about Espeonage two posts ago, going to dip quickly into people I read as town to give more thorough explanations of why, then cut back to re-reading.

Bins:
unexplained SC vote in 313, says "literally saw nothing i liked more" in 317. vague explanation in 321. Follows matt on flameaxe in 631, says she likes his reasoning - don't think scum stick this closely to their partner. doubt of notscience in 746/752 feels genuine. I don't think scum make a request like in 904 - asking to remove a player they don't like even though they think they're town would seem to stem from genuine irritation. The way she reacts toward matt in 1265 is a bit awkward, general reasoning in 1267 of him not really reacting, while understandable, is something that could easily come from a buddy showing a begrudging reluctance to bus. Her reasons in 1942 are believable, I think. Also like 1985 just because I thought the exact same thing. So, ultimately I'm conflicted here, want to say town but I don't think I can do so with strong confidence due to lack of content. Null but closer to town as I think the towntells are stronger than the iffy votes on SC/Matt, not really intersted in lynching her today.

I wrote this last night before she dropped that big ol' reads post, which I need to get to but I want to post for posterity as a snapshot of my thoughts.

Spiffeh:
town, pretty clearly showing a genuine effort to solve the game, strongly railed against SC early on in the game that I don't think would be likely as a bus, get a real sense of a thought process from him. I'm being vague hewre but constructing a case for him being town feels like it'd be a waste of time I could spend elsewhere.

mollie: town, her role and the manner she used it and her whole attitude are almost certainly town, the fact that some people are expressing suspicion of her still is absolutely ridiculous

Flameaxe: likely town, do not think Matt would go after a teammate so hard with his attempt at his first real case, the way he's been posting with sort of a disregard for people is more likely to come from town than scum I think, can see a hint of some thought process to what he says, he's not all random commentary

[catboi]

Blackberry/mykonian:

Still like blackberry's opening post. Not sure why he thought CDB was obvtown. Don't really like the lack of explanation for his reads - not a scumtell, just makes it frustratingly difficult for me to understand him. I can sort of understand his dissatisfaction in 1123 but the fact that he's just sort of blandly dismissive of all the votes without really trying to read any of them isn't great. Do like the skepticism he expressed of the ns wason in 1215 as I felt the same way. Notes in 1790 show something of a believable thought process, it's shorthand but that actually makes it a little more believable to me. He's nullish overall, haven't seen enough from him but there's nothing he's posted that stands out to me as outright suspicious.

ChannelDelibird:

I liked the early townread on Marquis in 39 because I thought the same thing - not really a hard thing to do, but still. I remember liking his reads post in 467 when I first saw it, but on a re-appraisal it's sort of thin, weird focus on people making self-conscious posts. I did like the criticism of ckd scumreading people for outing lots of townreads when he said it was a behavior being widely exhibited. His responses to mollie were entirely reasonable but his initial reasoning for scumreading he was fairly meh. However, he wasn't overly aggressive pushing back on her, didn't try to force the case, which I like. His reads list in 1618 doesn't seem forced, maybe a little vague in places but the fact that he's not able to come up with a decent reason for scumreading anyone strikes me as a town sort of tentativeness - certainly easy enough to force a case and I don't see him saying MattP felt "liiiiittle bit town" while deciding to vote him in the same post as a partner - too hesitant to be a bus, would be underselling it. I like the way he's been analyzing SC/Matt's interactions, and the vote on scotmany I think I like - I don't expect him to hold fast to a townread in light of the flip, and it's a 'challenge vote' - he's not hitting a popular target, he's trying to cast a wider view of the game, and the points he's made are very understandable. I'm noticing some interactions there myself but I need to reread scotmany myself before I decide either way yet. So, eh, wish he was more active but I think I lean town here.

I've gone over 7 people and don't have anyone I really strongly scumread, Espeonage is the closest but I'm a little wary there, hopefully can finish going over everyone by tomorrow although I've saved myself some of the more active posters

[catboi]

curiouskarmadog:

Well, I don't love 160, though his skepticism of mollie in 184 was totally understandable. Him agreeing with Marquis in 426 and subsequently unvoting feels natural. I am bothered by the fact he seems to spend a lot of the day hectoring people for the way they're playing while not doing much in the way of advancing his own scumreads. The sort of over the top irritation is something I think can be a scum affectation, in spite of what marquis said. I can maybe pick up litte threads of why he was skeptical of certain people in his catch-up post, but it doesn't resonate with me strongly I think because the perspective he's coming at the game from isn't as relatable to me. I guess I like his annoyance at marquis disappearing in 895 very slightly but him trying to use the game he was modding as evidence against is a bit of a stinker. 993 is interesting in that he's trying to discredit the wagon on matt based on the people on it. Brain says this is scummy, not sure he'd mount such an overt defense but I don't think I can let it go. 1016 is similar, it's a post I could

totally

see scum making, but intuition has me for some reason not scumreading it as strongly as I should. I sort of like how in 1353 he's sticking to his principles about being suspicious of people like Marquis and Spiffeh voting Matt, and avoids the wagon. Except his vote is the swing vote with the wagons locked 5-5, which is gross. But then he abandons it quickly to vote mykonian in 1448. Not sure it had yet become apparent there was no momentum on notscience. Like the unvote freak-out in 1450. 1708 I think is more likely to come from town, think unlikely as scum he complains about a lynch on a partner when MattP was sort of obvious dead weight, I think in that instance with a partner at L-1 scum are psychologically more inclined to give in and bus.

But he never really commented on

why

he disliked the wagon, and was very, very resistant to giving commentary on MattP himself, which is bothersome.

Can't help but feel 1766 reads a little bit contrived. God, I hate posts like 1855 on a purely metagame level but something like that "I don't care if I get modkilled" is more likely to come from town I think. Frustration with mollie in 1927 is believable.

I'm conflicted as hell here, more than I expected to be, insticts lean toward town but there's some ugly stuff. I think I'd vote him if I saw no other good options but I'd feel awful about it. Would vote Espeonage over him, I think.

[catboi]

VOTE: spiffeh

You're calling SC's vote weak but then you vote with the "Maybe you'll do more with pressure"? Can you just claim scum for us?

That's a really bad post

Holy crap, that post was even worse than I thought.

Davsto:

There's just...so very little there. I can understand his complaint about ckd in 881, though of course he doesn't really do anything with it. TO an extent I was sympathetic early because I can see a less experienced player getting overwhelmed by a larger game, but he's on a borderline unacceptable level of non-contribution at this point and has seemingly abandoned all pretense of trying while getting aggressively standoffish with people. I know he's capable of better, and I'm just not seeing anything at all. 1786 is so dumb it might be from town, but not much else I can dig up. Almost totally ignored strangercoug/mattp. Would lynch him at this point, but it would be bordering on policy (not that lynching lurkers is bad policy), can't pretend I have a particularly strong case toward him.



Think that's the last read I'll do tonight, save the rest for tomorrow. Also want to note that I haven't read Bins's wall of reads - I plan to tomorrow, but I don't want to be subconsciously influenced by it while I'm re-reading.

[catboi]

catboi I really like your readslist but I strongly disagree with your read on cdb, I am in camp nexus and notty as far there is something very off about him. I HATE his voteparking on scotty, who is a strong townread of mine.

Thing is, I can see his reasons for voting him and I don't think they're at all unreasonable? Nor do I think "vote parking" on someone seemingly no one else is interested in is all that scummy, and is probably a sign he's not looking at easy targets.

Nexus:

Low content makes it hard to judge but his scumread of me + spiffeh on day 1 is such an insane reach I don't see it coming from scum. It's hilariously out there, which is why he probably actually thought it. Scum go with something they think they can actually sell people on.

notscience:

Start to the game was unconventional, but lean towards it being from town even though I'm not sure him saying he just had townreads did much. Think more likely stems from a town sort of confidence than from scum trying to appeal to people. Way he expresses an expectation for Bins to do things in 185 feels town. doubt of mollie in 257 feels a little town. 375 is understandable since I felt the same way about ckd. Then, reading along I'm not seeing a lot of drive from him to do anything and I'm sort of understanding why some people wanted to vote him yesterday - it's not an impressive ISO. 847 reads very genuine though, I like it. Reads in 859 mostly reasonable although unexceptional? 1033 is a nice sort of detailed read and while I'm not going to fully backcheck it, it feels real. Reaction to the wagon in 1150 feels slightly town? It's not inconceivable scum could fake the stance of calling the people on their wagon town, but it's consistent with his thoughts overall, it's not like the people voyting him were townread overall, he'd be limiting his outs from the day for no reason. 1181 reads as sort of a town fatalism. Can be faked, again, but guessing it isn't. Hesitation on matt in 1593 a bit weird, move back onto him was just okay. Read is sort of very feelings-based to this point, I haven't seen much of what I'd say was a strong post from him but still leaning toward town.


Actually like the way he questions CDB in 1622 - feels purposeful. Same with the questioning of flameaxe in 1631, these are sharp observations that look like they're coming from a town player.


Wondering why he asked me if I'm townreading him in 1345


The wagon on him day 1 was still bad, even if I understand it a little more.


that was a raelly long read and I only got to ISO 131 and don't want to tackle the readslist tonight, poop

also I fell asleep when I got home today sorry

[catboi]

also now that it ended I can say I think CDB doesn't seem as fake to me here as in mini 1716 where his reads were sort of full of crap and based around nitpicky tone things (realize it's a vastly different environment, but still). Don't think the inactivity is alignment indicative but I also think he was favoring this game over that one but that's just from memory

[catboi]

Davsto's posting on the last page looks town and I no longer have interest in lynching him. Votes from scot and Zito look not great.

It's not a good lynch because now we know matt is scum, at first I wouldn't even expect him day 1 to pick a scum and a town as a limited choice for his lynch, and on top of that, he surely would not pick his scumbuddy as a preference. The situation wasn't close to as clear that scum was forced to make a choice like that. Matt had options, he chose to go with a limited choice between AJ (espe) and davsto. I'd say AJ is very town coming from that despite his own play, davsto is likely town.

While I think this sort of reasoning is maybe a bit naive, do agree that I'm a little wary of voting espeonage today.

also now that it ended I can say I think CDB doesn't seem as fake to me here as in mini 1716 where his reads were sort of full of crap and based around nitpicky tone things (realize it's a vastly different environment, but still). Don't think the inactivity is alignment indicative but I also think he was favoring this game over that one but that's just from memory

I am pretty sure his read on me on d1 was nitpicky for something that he knows wldn't be scummy from me and his read on scotty isn't any better.

voteparking absolutely is scummy combined with lurking. its a lone vote that you never REALLY have to be accountable for since it usually doesn't wind up in a lynch and most of the time pple read the lynch wagon and somehow manage to miss OH HAI WHAT ARE OTHER PLAYERS DOING.

I don't think his read seems that bad but I still want to investigate myself before I really go into it. I think what he's saying there is understandable and I feel like I'm repeating myself on this, could maybe go over the points in detail later. Do agree that the way he read you early day 1 as a whole didn't make a ton of sense, but also it was early and I like the way his thoughts have progressed since then? This is all sort of from memory so I'm somewhat talking out of my butt here but it's late so I don't want to explain too much.

[catboi]

I didn't like his readslist, there were a lot of really weird issues with it.

Generally like notscience's readslist (in terms of process), would like him to go into more detail on this as to what he found weird about it - I know he says more in the post I quoted but I want to hear specifics. Not sure I see this read.

[catboi]

Tell me how Davsto's posts look town.

Because I think it's a genuine meltdown over the last page and it's not really easy to fake such a thing without lots of experienceit all looks very much genuine especially the way he claimed. It's not really easy to explain other than "this is what frustrated town looks like when they're getting lynched", which I've seen plenty of times because people are stubborn and will keep on making the same mistakes over and over again while never learning from them. Additionally a large part of him getting lynched just seems to be people defaulting to him because he didn't do much on day 1 and ignoring subsequent things - I really didn't like his posting at all up until recently, the read I posted is proof enough of that, but really he's been extremely genuine the last couple of pages and it's changed my view completely. The wagon is bad and needs to die.

[catboi]

skipping over reading zito for a moment due to sheer volume of posts, even though there's a lot of filler.

scotmany12:

Had a feeling that posts from SC I referenced earlier plausibly looked like crappy distancing - it was terribly random of him to name two players he "needed to take a look at", likely he had a purpose in mind when he named scot/flameaxe, I think he thought he was disassociating himself with them. Became suspicious of him when I saw CDB's posts so I fully admit I may be biased here in my reading.

Pile-on vote on SC in 126, questions SC about singling him out in 154 but completely ignores the response from him in 161. Possible he considered it satisfactory, but it seems weird to cut off questioning of the person you're voting with that. Continues to go after him in 178, 308, but no further interactions. He spends a lot more time arguing with AJ in 402, 538, 543, 545. Some of that's surely activity-based, but even stylistically he's applying a lot more pressure to AJ where he just made sort of broad declarative statements about SCoug. Him asking "Why do you refuse to comment on the SC wagon then" really possibly looks like he's setting up AJ to be voted after an SC scum flip.

I don't find the unvote in 565 to be telling just because at that point MattP had replaced in, and in context I can certainly see being suspicious of AJ as making sense. But there's maybe a worrying feeling I get reading this ISO where I'm not seeing a lot from scot that seems..original? insightful? Like how he sort of adds to the suspicion on davsto by just saying "you've been scummy" and that his vote is "awful". Also notable in that post is he sort of blandly dismisses mattp's flameaxe vote, doesn't make a statement toward a read on him. This is a hard statement to justify I realize, and it could be something I'm imagining but not a whole lot feels like real scumhunting.

As CDB pointed out, interactions with Matt in 702 and 823 are fairly calm for a slot he was scumreading earlier. I know that when I saw Matt's flameaxe case, I thought it sucked, and I was

suspicious

of him for making it - to go "I understand but disagree" seems weird.

As for his push on Davsto in 823, I can't really lie - I think town and scum would both have reason to push on Davsto at that point. I'm not sure how you'd tell them apart, because Davsto was largely useless. I am fairly confident now that Davsto's town, which means in all likelihood there's at least one scum pushing him.

Looking at itI don't like the statement in 1051 of "Town should defend themselves way more than that." because it feels like an excuse to lynch someone. I have no idea why someone's effort in defending themselves should be considered toward their alignment at all, scum are just as capable of defending themselves and town get unmotivated. It's kind of odd he claims "MattP's vote on AJ is awful." in that same post while saying he's okay with lynching AJ, doesn't really elaborate on a read there.

Never liked his suspicion of notscience, vote in 1205 looks not great, hard to understand why that's his go-to. Don't like the reasoning in 1206, feels totally fair for notscience to ask a townread who to wagon and it feels like scot's trying to make something out of nothing.

No idea why he expresses disinterest in wagoning mykonian in 1291. No mentions of him before that. Says Matt is a better vote in 1295, no reasoning, no real commentary on him. notable he's gone davsto-AJ-notsci with the MattP wagon starting to build - (VC after this has notsci/Matt at 5-5)

Him swatting down my question to Zito (1305) in 1309 kind of bugs me, especially as he's trying to justify lynching notscience when his strong scumread Davsto is on the wagon. Actually in both his case and Zito's, I don't like this. It's okay to be fine wagoning with a scumread, but to not react to it or comment on it strkes me as the action of someone who doesn't really care what their scumread is doing, which makes me wonder how real their read is.

Also he's pestering notsci about his vote on Matt in 1318, which is possibly sort of an oblique defense.

He very quietly moves over to the MattP wagon in 1545/1546, voting without actually explaining why. This looks plausibly like a bus. It's going along with the growing consensus, and doing it very quietly. The fact that he's gone into some detail on his othr votes but just sort of sheeps along on Matt is off. Then he's questioning spiffeh about second guessing in 1723, despite never really having expressed much confidence in the lynch himself.

Now I'm at the end of day 1 and going long but this is someone who'd be my preference to vote today, depending on how reads of Zito/Reck go (unwilling to lynch starbuck even if I scumread her(from memory I don't) because mollie is town, will have to look at that later). Going to go a bit more on his day 2 stuff in another post.


I know a ton of this isn't going to get read but screw it, I had to thought dump.

[catboi]

see catboi uses more words than i do

mollie <3 catboi

but

y no vote.

I'm sort of slowly progressing in reading over the entire playerlist and I've been suspicious of scot/zito/reck but their names happen to be late in the dropdown ISO list. Fell behind my planned schedule of reading b/c I got distracted yesterday doing dumb non game related stuff

[catboi]

scot's pushback on CDB in 1929 really bugs me, rather than really addressing the points CDB made he starts attacking CDB about how his read on scot changed, because I guess someone changing their mind is freaky? In particular the line about "He didn't have a problem with this part of my post earlier, in fact, he like that entire post from me." just comes off as slightly inauthentic, there's no reason to assume him saying he liked the post meant he liked

every single detail

. Also, it's not like his read couldn't change - it's very likely he

wouldn't

remember scot pushing SC early in the game, ages before the second post was made, and would instead pick up on it during a reread. I don't find it to be at all an unreasonable thing.

But again, the fact that he pushes back here against CDB and attacks him rather than addressing the points he's making is really worrisome. I don't think that's a town response to pressure.

VOTE: scotmany12


too late to cover Zito in full tonight but something I noticed I've been holding on to is that when he was grilling Bins about following mattp's vote on flameaxe, he posts this:

That's interesting. In that case why were you on a wagon (MattP) with both BBM and Reck?

But later in the thread, when he's voting notscience, we have this exchange:

Hey Zito, still scumreading Davsto?

yeh that can be lynched or shot, either way

But you're comfortable sharing the wagon with him, then?

Why wouldn't I be?

[catboi]

Yes you sure did quote some things there.

I was hoping you'd be smart enough to discern what I was getting at there, but I guess not.


Well, or maybe you did but you're trying to act like it doesn't matter. I don't know.

[catboi]

I just came in to reread the last handful of pages, and the first thing of note that came up is a post from Davsto which is massively more likely to come from town than scum, which immediately brings two more votes to his wagon. I really didn't understand that reaction. Obviously I am aware to an extent of why Davsto had some votes because I thought he was pretty scummy for much of Day 1, but his responses to pressure look very town and that people went more in on him after that is baffling to me and makes me think that he's a targeted mislynch.

Well, at least one of the two people who jumped on him after that is scum, in all likelihood. Just need to try to get people to see the light here.

[catboi]

Chill out, man

[catboi]

I'm going over

Bins

's reads list in 1994 because I promised I would and don't want to forget, will get to more recent stuff later but want to do this first.

Despite Day 1, Flame's vote of SC (123) doesn't feel like a bus.

agree with most of the stuff on Flameaxe, am solid on him being town myself, but I'm curious as to why you think this?

Would like to see an of reck's reads aligning with your own, also. I know I haven't read him yet but the read on him is rather vague so I'd like to see more said here.

Fairly strongly disagree with the scot read, don't think the interactions there are clearing of him and in fact lead to the opposite conclusion. I know I rambled a

lot

in my read post but I was just sort of trying to get down my mostly unedited thoughts on him, it wasn't really intended as a persuasive post. Think a lot of what went on between him and SC/Matt reads as plausible distancing. Also, reaction to CDB's voting him really did not look good at all.


I like the rest of Bins's reads list. That's vague but she had similar thoughts on ckd and starbuck as I did, agree with the CDB read, suspicion of Zito well-founded, and the way she looked at Davsto seems to be coming from a town perspective of trying to analyze him, not just pushing to lynch him because he's over his head. She can be town. Need to get her off the Davsto vote, though.

[catboi]

Is there an explanation as to why you questioned Bins about being on a wagon with people she scumread but had no concerns about doing something like that yourself?

[catboi]

Have absolutely no desire to get into a wall war with scot and I despise quote stripes, think people usually tend to just ignore or skim them so I'm just going to reply in in a block that is hopefully independently readable. I'm not going to address everything because I want to try not to dilute things with points that aren't that important.

re: 2132

I don't really find it notable StrangerCoug omitted a handful of people from his wagon in saying he needed to look at some people - he wasn't actively pushing back against the people he named, which has me thinking it was more likely a poor attempt by him to distance, rather than trying to put suspicion on townies. I didn't mention it at the time when I quoted the posts because I had yet to reread scotmany and felt like I should have a complete befoe I post it, rather than just throwing out vague half-formed suspicion. If I'm going to make an accusation, I don't want to half-ass it.

despite what scot says, think him not responding to SC's 161 amounts to him ignoring it - if the response was unsatisfactory, why not say so? Why not use it to push against him? Instead he does nothing with it.

I don't really see where AJ makes a post that implies he knows SC's alignment. He also did comment on the wagon, in 377, saying it just looked like mollie was pushing it and there wasn't much else to it. Now this obviously is something scum could say about a wagon on their partner, but the thing is

I remember being skeptical of the SCoug wagon myself at the time

.

When I talk about the response to MattP being "calm" in 702/823, I mean that attitude/tone doesn't look like how a player addresses someone they were/are scumreading. It's very neutral. Him pointing to his other interactions feels like misdirection here, way he talked to AJ/Davsto, there was

pressure

and there's none here. I think the way he just gave Matt a sort of blow-off response to his push on Flameaxe is

highly

likely to come from a scum partner.

I've seen town get frustrated/defeatist when there's a wagon on them and they feel dying is inevitable, it's a really common reaction but people pick on it because they mistakenly think someone refusing to cooperate and being emotional makes them scum. I'm also sure as hell it's something scum

love to

push on, because I've done it myself - when someone gets worked up, it affects the quality of their posting and causes people to pile on. That's what I see happening here and I'm fairly sure scum are trying to take advantage of it. Will try to dig for examples of town reacting like Davsto is to pressure.

Because I didn't think myk is scum? And I still don't. And it's almost like I still found the Matt slot suspicious like I did in the beginning of the day.

The tone of this line

sucks

, and I still have no understanding

why

scot finds mykonian town - looks more like he's picking out a town player at random to defend than anything.

And absolutely think scot/zito ignoring a vote from Davsto, a player they consider scummy, on a wagon you're on, is incredibly suspect given that realistically if you suspect someone, you're going to pay attention to what they do - I don't see a plausible town motivation for ignoring your scumread. You see some people like spiffeh reacting to when his scumread jumps a wagon with a bad vote. I think a town player that sees their scumread jumping the same wagon as them, they call their vote out, or maybe they read it and agree with it, or say it's not enough to dissuade them, but

what excuse is there for ignoring your scumread like this?

I don't think I've seen a town player do something like that ever, to my recollection.

[catboi]

Right, recent examples of a town player getting overemotional/frustrated when wagoned and being unhelpful are elusive in Pula mafia. I was scum that game. I didn't get her lynched, but I knew I could get her worked up, and tried to press on that to get a mislynch. Another example is Yopok in Newbie 1651 - I pressed on him for changing his reads, he got frustrated and it resulted in people voting him, he gave an emotional response saying stuff like "I have no idea what to do" "nothing I try works" and claiming VT. Got lynched anyway, because people in newbie games can't tell when someone isn't being genuine.


Now, Davsto isn't really a newbie, but the fact is, his response here is incredibly similar to that, and it's far far far more likely to come from town than scum. It's very, very hard to fake that sort of emotional response and have it look real, and it's an enormous risk anyway, because people are very often stubborn and don't want to change their minds, don't want to unvote because of emotional appeals and in their mind it's a safe lynch anyway. It's a response only a very experienced player is likely to fake, and Davsto is not that, meaning I don't think he'd have the confidence to attempt a play like that, nor would he have any reason to suspect it would work - people are going to lynch a VT claim more often than not.

So, uh, if the people I think are town could unvote Davsto, that would be grrrrrrreat

[catboi]

Is there an explanation as to why you questioned Bins about being on a wagon with people she scumread but had no concerns about doing something like that yourself?

Do you consider myself and Bins to be the same player? Or to even have similar playstyles?

That's totally irrelevant to what I'm asking. I'm wondering why you questioned a player about behavior you later exhibited yourself. Did you think it was suspicious she was on a wagon with people she scumread?


Why ar you being evasive? This isn't complicated

[catboi]

@Bins

if I could direct your attention to 2307 - you're one of the people I'm townreading on that wagon and I really think it's unlikely to be a scum lynch. Would really prefer the lynch be someone else today.

[catboi]

Answer the full post. You're trying to get me riled up and I'm not going to let it happen.

[catboi]

I have zero interest in lynching starbuck because I strongly townread mollie and want to keep her alive as long as possible.

[catboi]

catboi I hate that you're buying Davsto's AtE.

Have you not see him repeatedly discredit the reasons for his wagon?

I'm extremely confident he wouldn't act the way he is now as scum. He's not experienced enough to pull it off. You should read the post I made, instead of being stubborn and bad. There's some sort of stigma around emotional appeals I guess because people don't want to lose to someone faking emotion, or something, but it's idiotic to dismiss them entirely, people getting emotional is a part of the game and the way he's acting is far likely to come from him as genuine town than it is from him as scum. Think as scum an inexperienced player is far more likely to clam up and accept the inevitability. Davsto is acting like how a VT being wagoned acts, like hundreds of players who have drawn VT in the past, got run up, got frustrated, and got lynched anyway because people "didn't want to buy into his AtE!!!!". It's utterly moronic.

Is there anyone else you scumread that you're willing to vote?

[catboi]

So because he acted in a way you'd expect a vanilla town to act that erases his suspicious interaction with SC/MattP and how he continuously discredits the reasons for his wagon?
Like I'm not letting Davsto live to LYLO we might as well get rid of him now.

As for other options, I may be able to buy into a CDB or mykonian lynch.

I don't think the interactions are exceptionally meaningful, admittedly they don't look great but in a large game occasionally people are going to interact in scum with weird ways essentially by pure coincidence. I don't think it's nrearl;y as strong as you're making it out to be.

What the hell kind of scum tell is "discrediting the reasons for his wagon"? You're driving me up a wall with this crap. Is he supposed to...credit the reasons for his wagon? Say, "sure, you have a point, lynch me!"? No one is going to want to admit people have a valid reason for lynching them! That's true for anyone of any alignment! goddamn.

Yes I think that him

acting like how I've seen VT act all the time

makes him more likely to be town because

that is how scumhunting works

. It's about recognizing patterns and right now he's the player who had trouble getting into the game and lurked because of it, and then people decided he was scum because of it, and so when he tries to start actually playing the game THEY continually discredit everything HE says, because he must be scum! He's doing it to fool us! It's stupid as hell and anyone reading the game from an objective perspective who hadn't been locked in to scumreading the guy for weeks would recognize it and say "hey this guy is pretty town". I would hope that you would recognize you've fallen victim to this very sort of behavior of being committed to a tunnel on a player so that you stop reading their posts objectively, because you've fallen victim to it in the past, and are doing it again right here.

I flat-out don't think he's experienced enough to fake acting the way he is right now. When he's been run up as scum before, he's claimed a power role and clammed up. As scum there's a certain impulse to get quiet so as to avoiding giving any tells that might lead to your partners. Not really what he's doing. Completely different behavior.

I don't support the idea of either of those lynches. I want scot or espeonage. The fact that you wussed out of lynching espeonage and called his wagon terrible yet are on a far, far worse lynch is mind-boggling.

[catboi]

how on earth do you have 2010 meta on davsto?

[catboi]

That's great, espeonage. I recognize someone can attempt what you did. You were also registered for over a year at that point, and more importantly,

you aren't Davsto

. I don't expect him to have randomly taken a leap as a player to attempt this sort of play. I also don't see a reason why he would think this would work (it usually doesn't).

@mollie:

just the person I wanted to see, actually. I get why you're suspicious of Zito, he's starting to irritate me and I think he adds nothing to this game, BUT I think your suspicion of the scot/Zito dynamic is off, I think the level of buddying you see there is far more likely to come from town/scum and while zito is incredibly frustrating he seems to me more likely of the two to be town.

Of course the buddying there is awful anyway and incredibly harmful to the town so it should be destroyed at the first available opportunity


Anyway I was giving espeonage a reprieve but it looks to me like he's trying to lurk things out so I want to lynch him now. I don't think I was worried about anything he said so much as the people voting him and I've sort of lost that concern now.

[catboi]

bbbgbfgfhghghgh I don't want to lynch CDB. While his strategy here of taking a townlist made by scum and assuming there's a partner in it is akin to mafia phrenology, the way he went about it looked fine to me and ultimately I agree with him that scotmany's interactions with SCoug/MattP don't put him in a favorable light.

[catboi]

also should have said this earlier but just remembered it, there's a tendency for town players who who feel they're being unjustlyy suspected to troll, because they want to get back at people for misreading them, and piss them off, or something.

[catboi]

I don't really like Espeonage's slot for stuff I've already gone into, but I want to see some sort of reads from him - I'm a little uncomfortable with some of the people voting him right now and still have things I want to review

Right, this is all I said about espeonage when I was starting my ISO reads. Felt like I'd already sort of well established my case on AJ.

Here's what he's done since then:

Hai peeps. Shaky onlineness atm bc I'm not going to be nocturnal any more because I have jobs and shit now. So I have competition for computer town. Going to try and come to some sort of agreement or find a way to get online more often. But for the est of the week assume I am going to have shaky activity.

Ya sorry prodded, been having this on backburner. I think I still need to respond to the star case and comment on dav wagon as a todo list.

Ok just a reminder for myself when I do get time. But I have meta of doing what catboi is reading as town from Dav as scum. Its anecdotal, but does show that catboi is not respecting the possible wifom. I still prefer star to Dav despite this but that is mostly due to timing which I will get to.

Time's up, done waiting, he can hang, this wagon is Truth

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Espeonage

[catboi]

we are simply going to have to agree to disagree. I think it is possible they are both scum.

I also love how zito is clearly and plainly dodging your question and no1 is saying a thing about it except for you!

also can I be your spirit animal

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I do think it's

less likely

, just because of what I said.

And yeah, it's insane that no one seems to care about what Zito's doing in response to me but I secretly suspect people just aren't paying attention

be my spirit animal, sure~

[catboi]

If you move your vote from me to Espe they'd be the same size so I don't know what the hell you're on about.

I'm not scumreading espe either

But he's not being actively useless

This is patently false. What are you doing?

[catboi]

I really can't wait to be lynched and watch that smarmy, smug fucking smile get wiped off Spiffeh's face when I flip town.

you are calling someone smug? classic.

Can you not do this? Thanks~

[catboi]

UNVOTE: espeonage

@ catboi

I feel like espy's post about star was pretty on point, marquis noticed that on d1, it is why I loverized her. so now I am really unsure on him.

I am really not happy with reck right now. I am wondering if scum are in those hanging back. we have to find some way to consolidate.

I am not sure what to think about dave right now.

I think we're largely on the same page with regard to a lot of the game and I voted espe because his wagon seemed viable and I was done waiting around for him to contribute. I'd probably want to get someone from the scot/espe/zito/reck group (i know i still need to read the last two although i don't even want to bother with zito), though I feel like they can't all be scum, I'm probably wrong on someone else, but like hell if I can tell who.

I haven't read starbuck in full but I think she seems fine and have no desire to lynch her, did say I think her end of day 1 makes her more likely to be town. Also she's showing some actual try, which is enough for me to want to keep someone around at this point. Espe's response to her in 2359 is understandable, in that her post against espeonage/bins are largely summaries of things they've done without actual rationale as to why this is scummy, but I don't know if that actually makes her scum. People can over-summarize or state cases ineffectively as either alignment. I'd have to look into it.

Of course the bigger problem is that anyone can point out something like this, as it's objectively true. It's not really a case, so anyone is going to look good responding to it. His lack of defined reads elsewhere is really bothersome. He's at least saying something now so I'm not going to scream for his death, but...eh. Certainly don't feel comfortable calling him town.

[catboi]

Am I the only person who didn't feel like CDB had no comprehension of the Dav wagon? I feel like his words were just taken and ran with.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

So I'm just wondering is anything that I say being taken into consideration, or should I just go full Davsto? I mean, if I'm just being kept around because of mollie.

I'm reading your posts, but I'm not finding a whole lot to interface with. Just realized I missed 1981 when I was trying to look back, need to read that, don't know if I'm going to be able to tonight

[catboi]

Still largely don't see the CDB case at all.

reck didn't read shit. he picked out some posts and made random vacuous replies and suppose that will be enough for some pple.

That's dead on, my thoughts exactly. Large portion of those posts were unnecessary and contained zero real analysis - it was all coomentary crap that didn't really advance the gamestate. Just sort of coasting on reputation and intimidating people into staying alive, which I hate.

Mollie, should we team up and lynch the hell outta Reck? Jeebus.

god it is tempting isn't it

I would (probably) be okay with this. Should try to iso read tomorrow.



I can totally believe starbuck's note-taking is legitimate but it's still hard for me to get a handle on why she's actually scumreading people, reading 1981 I understand she didn't like the way he started the game by asking mollie about stuff or how he reacted to the matt wagon, and disagreeing with him claiming some psychological tell or whatever (i haven't traced this back to its source but it feels not very meaningful, aside from whether he actually believes it). that's okay though not anything that hasn't been said by a lot of people, I think?

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

catboi can die too

"I want to break up the town bloc even though I openly admit I haven't read half of them" immediately followed by "I would be okay with lynching one of the people I haven't read at all" WHEEEEE

Well the so-called townbloc seems to have formed largely arbitrarily so I put very little stock in it, I have one scumread on it, I haven't liked your posting whatsoever, and I have mostly townreads outside that group, so....

(and I fully reserve the right to change my mind if I review someone and they come across as town)

1. Reading through, Bins and a few others were all like "CDB doesn't UNDERSTAND! It'd be okay if he didn't agree, but he doesn't UNDERSTAND." I feel like they decided to take what he said and make it mean what they wanted it to mean (and, thus, further their case), rather than asking him to clarify. I mean, if we're going to talk about some weak shit, that's a real good example.

I didn't pick up on that at all? As far as I could tell, notscience was voting because he didn't like CDB's reads list, and Nexus was voting him for vague undisclosed metafeels, and anything else was bluh. I certainly do feel like he gave perfectly sensible reasons for not wanting to lynch Davsto. Those could come from either alignment but I still lean toward him being town. Oh now I see someone referencing that statement. "I don't understand this Dav wagon" is a figure of speech, good god - he's saying he doesn't understand why people aren't picking up on davsto towntelling it's not the same thing at all

I can totally believe starbuck's note-taking is legitimate but it's still hard for me to get a handle on why she's actually scumreading people, reading 1981 I understand she didn't like the way he started the game by asking mollie about stuff or how he reacted to the matt wagon, and disagreeing with him claiming some psychological tell or whatever (i haven't traced this back to its source but it feels not very meaningful, aside from whether he actually believes it). that's okay though not anything that hasn't been said by a lot of people, I think?

So instead of saying "it's hard for me to get a handle on why she's actually scumreading people," why not ask me to elaborate or explain? That's been the whole thing throughout this game. I can't answer or clarify for you, if I don't know you need/want clarification or elaboration.

That was sort of me indirectly asking you to explain as much of your read as you can

[catboi]

I think it's frustrating and unhelpful and he should try to do better. If he's not having fun, well, no one's forcing him to play. You need to distinguish scumtells from behavior that pisses you off.

Thank you catboi and others for justifying this behavior

Oh, boo hoo. I said he aws town not that he should keep throwing a tantrum in-thread. There are other people who are nearly as poisonous, you're just not tunneling them

inb4 catboi calls this frustrated town

It is. Sorry.

Real quick, you know who also said Davsto was genuine....

MattP.

Well that's not really meaningful seeing as scum are going to feel compelled to townread certain people, not like anyone they defend is automatically their buddy

Despite espe's posting style, should we really ignore this?

I don't think that vote on AJ from matt is particularly meaningful given the timing of it - he could easily have done it to create distance theregiven at that point in time it was clear he was in trouble. I'm not saying that's what he did, just that it's possible

2612 is icky.

[catboi]

When zito actually posts substance he looks town, just seems like most of the time he's more interested in being obstinate and unhelpful. Still bothered by him evading my questions from a while back, though - see no reason for him to be so evasive. I don't even care to read him in detail at this point because I'm not that suspicious of him, it's just annoying more than anything.

xRECKONERx:

This was painful to go through as it felt like there was a really high noise level reading this. It's not a scumtell, I just wanted to gripe.

One thing I did notice was that in 667 and 686 he calls notscience scum for saying that mollie vs cdb looked like town vs town, then in 1382 says "notty feels town still" despite not ever expressing any sort of a townread on him before this and giving essentially no indication of where the read changed. There seems to be a lack of a consistent thought process here and this happens a few more times in his ISO. Doesn't seem like something that happens to someone who's legitimately scumhunting.

Marquis expresses suspicion of Reck in 1231, reck comes back and starts attacking him in 1385, reasoning feels very flimsy to claim that marquis is scum because doubted his read of mollie 6 minutes after a previous post, thought his overall posting to that point had been town (I admit ther's a little hindsight bias going on here but it still feels like a very odd reason to scumread someone). He'd previously expressed a townread of marquis in 299 and 445. Don't deny it's possible for reads to change but the way he went after him here feels very reactionary. Disagree really strongly with his reasoning in 1464, Marquis seemed to be solidly analyzing the game, not to mention that attacking him for "just popping in every once in awhile" and doing "enough to be ready to jump on a wagon" feels exceptionally hypocritical given his posting to that point - he'd been doing more or less nothing but popping in every once in a while, so to call someone else scum for it does't make much sense.

Hops on mykonian in 1407, lists matt as a possible lynch in 1408. In 1466 says "mattp is basically a matter of "oh uh he hasn't done much" compounded with SC's rather awfulness, whereas I feel like myko is actively scummy" but doesn't actually explain why mykonian is scummy. This definitely feels like it could be a partner trying to pursue counterwagons but leaving their options open to bus. Hadn't really said much at all about the SC/Matt slot otherwise, other than voting im at the end of his contextless readlist in 445, which doesn't do a whole lot for me.

statement in 1513 of "could die today too" without context is kind of blah, just sort of gets thrown out there and I don't understand why.

catchup posts in 2452 - 2469 says basically nothing useful, it's all easy commentary and dismissing of of statements other people made with some open-ended questioning, there's nothing approaching analysis here, it's a fairly scummy catchup that seems designed to give the impression of activity more than anything.

I'm obviously biased here, but him clapping back at me in 2492 after I express suspicion of him is bothersome, because I feel in part saying I "haven't read" is a bit off a misrepresentation, I've been reading people but hadn't done detailed ISO reads, thought I made that clear. I know it was ages ago but he townread me previously in 1387, as I've said I know reads can change but this feels very reactionary, and similar to how he reacted to Marquis. The moment someone expresses some suspicion of him he abandons any prior read and starts attacking them. I really do not like it at all. Response in 2495 is vulgar, dismissive, type of post that

can

be very easy for scum to make - it's not inherently scummy but in the contxt of everything else, fairly bothersome especially as I don't think my criticisms were illegitimate at all. I know that can be a thing town players do because they're overconfident jerks but coupled with the rest of his posting + the heavy lurking, it really bothers me.

I'd be lying if I said I had a strong scumread here but I'm not really picking up on anything close to a towntell. I am seeing towntells on other people and that's enough for me to want to lynch him at this point.

---

Reads list ultimately goes something like this. I can more confidently justify the town reads than I can really push on the scumreads. Probably messed up somewhere but not worried about that

Town Reads (strongest -> weakest):

mollie, Spiffeh, Davsto, Flameaxe, notscience, <gap>, Bins, mykonian, Starbuck, Nexus, CDB

null:

zito, curiouskarmadog

Scum Reads:

scotmany12, reckoner, espeonage

[catboi]

Votecount 2.13

Espeonage

(7): Davsto,

catboi

, pirate mollie, Papa Zito, Starbuck, xRECKONERx, scotmany12

UNVOTE:

Scum Reads:

scotmany12, reckoner,

espeonage

Explain.

Wanted to finish reading stuff and not risk him getting lynched before then. And truthfully, I hadn't yet piled my reads together and realized that I have a ton of people I think are town.

for real though catboi, your entire wall against me is mostly fair and when I posted "notty is scummy for the town v town" then TWENTY EIGHT PAGES LATER posted that I thought notty was town, a lot had happened and that earlier post was so long ago. I don't have a good reason for when he became townish or when I realized it because this game for me has been series of "big day of activity, long periods of prod dodging, big day of activity, long periods of prod dodging" and I've done literally zero retroactive reading based on flips or updated information

I never defended the MattP lynch and again, he was completely in my blind spot because he was reading me as town and I felt like MattP would actually see that I was town in that situation because he has always been someone who i've felt could read my eccentricities correctly... I should've committed harder probably but that lynch STILL feels really out of nowhere to me. and again, being wrong is not really a scumtell and I don't think my interactions with Matt are actually indicative of anything two buddies would do towards each other, but im pretty biased since I have the special ability to read my role PM

I absolutely realize there was a fairly long gap in between the reads on notscience, what bothers me is essentially you said he was "still" town despite having only scumread him prior to that post, and the read is completely opaque so I'm unable to get any sense of a thought process there which is especially bothersome. I mean, if you phoned in the read, okay, that's bad but I realize it can happen. It's not a hard scumtell but it bothers me and I think it's always going to bother me

I think the interactions are entirely plausible though inconclusive. But then that's something that really comes down to interpretation. Like I said I can't really make a coherent argument against you, I just find myself with a large number of townreads on other players

[catboi]

and since I'm there...

VOTE: Espeonage

might as well get him to claim now. Also admit I was a little bit spooked which is dumb but I can't help it.

No interest in voting Bins. Felt she had some townish posts earlier + I don't think she sheeps mattp's case on flameaxe if she's his partner - seems more likely she'd try to keep a bit of distance from him. I realize similar things could be said about AJ/Espeonage, but the timing was slightly different and the overall body of posting isn't nearly as good

[catboi]

Yeah, the case on him isn't that strong and notscience needs to do more than just make an empty push on him at this point. It's bad, but that's because it's lazy, not because it's scummy. I think the way notsci's CDB read progressed makes him likely town, but what he's doing now just isn't really productive.

[catboi]

I think the Nero Cain and pisskop lynches were p. bad but whatcha gonna do

I recall thinking both slots were fairly town while I was alive, but then everyone in the dead thread was screaming for reck's head (and I bought into it, too), so it's not like many people were on the right track. Plus there were people who still thought it was davsto, which, come on. I know I suspected scot, but I think a lot of it was based on associative stuff which of course was actually totally meaningless. I think when people can't figure anything out they just sort of go back to their early biases, and it happened to be those two slots.