Prozac's Basic Theme 4 - Murder in Marlowe - OVER!

[ChannelDelibird]

I'll take Marquis for town.

VOTE: Bins

[ChannelDelibird]

Is that really the post about which you're going to kick up a storm, Zito? That one?

[ChannelDelibird]

UNVOTE: Bins
VOTE: mollie

c'mon

[ChannelDelibird]

hi cdb!

is there something you wanna talk about?

Hi!

I think that getting all "harrumph vote stands" over what might be the nullest post of all time is more likely to come from scum than town ilu

This is like a straight old school game.....me, Reck, SC, CDB, CKD, Zito. Nice.

I feel out of place.

Pretend that you're a Thok alt or something. Wait, no, don't, I don't want to get banned for cheating.

[ChannelDelibird]

ChannelDelibird why don't you like the Reck wagon?

He hasn't yet done anything off and the wagon has already fluctuated weirdly up and down

[ChannelDelibird]

I got distracted by building GOT decks! I'll be back tomorrow.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hey punks! I've put my cards down. Reading up.

[ChannelDelibird]

Still reading, actual reads to follow when done

don't trust him until you can be sure, not even if he looks at you with big eyes and quivers his bottom lip. actually if he does that just lynch him.

don't listen to this

[ChannelDelibird]

Read quickly, but main impressions at the moment:

Would vote right now:

AJ, mollie, Davsto, CKD

Definitely not voting right now:

Marquis, Spiffeh

Probably not voting right now:

notscience, catboi, MattP, Reck, Zito, Starbuck

Need more time/haven't decided:

Nexus, Flameaxe, Blackberry, scotmany, Bins

AJ has self-image issues in this game. That whole post is lathered in examination of his play at a really early stage, which is something of which scum are more likely to be conscious at that point.

mollie: I think I might finally be right about mollie being scum. Often I end up scumreading her and she retorts and then, out of nowhere, I'm banging my head against a wall for a few hours before she turns out to be town. But here I was concerned early and acted upon it but she's weirdly standoffish about it. Her anger reaction is long delayed from when I explain why I voted here, until this post where she gets snippy about it to notty rather than me. Where was this objection when it happened? The town mollie that I know doesn't need a second trigger before the reaction goes off. Makes me feel that it's much more likely to be her trying to work over notty than it is her actually being town and honest.

Also like wtf is this. I don't even know where to begin, like it literally doesn't make any sense

This definitely feels in contrast to what I've seen of Davsto around the site so far, and I really don't like the self-consciousness of it. I don't associate lack of motivation with his game. More likely he's got a scum PM in a weird/difficult thread.

CKD is the most borderline of my would-votes right now because there's a consistency to his tone that I like, but then you have things like this where it looks like he's positioning himself on both sides of the fence ('could just be that everything on Day 1 is stretchy... surprised nobody else is with me on this'). Also then he scumreads notty here for behaviour which he more or less admits in the same paragraph is being exhibited by lots of people? That's literally a reason not to scumread someone.

I really didn't like Starbuck theatrically asking "What have you got to hide?" but sheer post density probably means town effort.

[ChannelDelibird]

Primary points of reference are Empking's Upick and Upick of Ice and Fire

[ChannelDelibird]

Mollie, you know, that the crucial part of that experience was how town!you interacted with me, how you deal with things that you don't think are right - that you latch onto things and I latch onto things and we blow up and then by the end of it we figure out each other's alignments, right? That's why those things lodge in my head and drive how I approach you in games (after a couple of years, remembering that we argued directly at each other is easy enough to confuse with me scumreading you at some point, and I didn't make my read just now with those old games to hand. I fetched them afterwards to back up an immediate reaction)

[ChannelDelibird]

Like you are definitely focusing on the wrong part of what I'm saying about you, which means that you do not address the post that you made in this game which I found suspicious

[ChannelDelibird]

Which part wasn't meta-based? From what I read he was saying "I expect town!Mollie to do X but in this game she did Y so I think she's scum" which is like core meta gameplay. What am I missing.

no you got it

[ChannelDelibird]

well, sure, there was the whole reason why I voted for you in the first place, which I haven't redacted or anything, but let's pretend that all of my thoughts were in that one post just now.

And like I hear you about meta to some extent but also: BORE OFF. I'll use what works for me. Surprise, surprise, I didn't write what I did in order to convince you that you are scum. I'm not completely sold on it myself but I'm definitely suspicious.

[ChannelDelibird]

But you could also take the meta out of my read there and be left with:

Why didn't mollie find that kind of anger at my reason when I said what the reason was? Why did it take her until notty brought it up again to display anger at it? Is that a town reaction?

Not worthless and I sure would like to hear you finally actually talk about it

[ChannelDelibird]

CRIMES THAT CDB HAS COMMITTED IN THIS MAFIA GAME:

1. lied about meta

NOT TRUE. I only 'lied' if I went back to those previous games before I made the post, thought 'maybe people will believe me if I said I have a habit of scumreading mollie then she gets angry about it immediately' and then posted what I did. What actually happened was that I quickly read several pages, had an immediate reaction to your posts based on my impressions of games from a couple of years ago, then posted what I did and was wrong about an aspect of it.

Which is the more likely thing to have happened?

Because the first one also needs me to go back to look first, then decide that it was a good idea in the first place and post in full knowledge of what I was doing which doesn't make any sense - you'd need to give me absolutely no credit as a player for saying I'd think like that, and you've gone to great lengths in this game to give me credit as a scum player.

[ChannelDelibird]

I have no problem with you using meta but you just gave 2 examples where you townread me in both games so I am a bit confused as to what you are actually trying to achieve here.

What I'm trying to achieve

now

is different than when I made that catch-up post, and you're acting as if this whole string of posts is part of some grand plan.

What I wanted to do with my catch-up post:

Explain where my reads are, explain what's new about the scum ones

What I want to do at the moment:

Make sure that what I find suspicious about you isn't shouted down by someone/people who either can't or won't understand what it is that I'm saying. Because it really feels like you're blowing things out of proportion (he LIED about meta! it's a CRIME!) and right now I can't tell if you're actually doing a deliberate discrediting job or if you literally just aren't on my wavelength because mollie

[ChannelDelibird]

uhm...I wasn't angry? I was irritated at notty for not seeing how dumb your push was. my irritation was all for him.

But why weren't you irritated at

me

for not seeing how dumb my own push was, as you supposedly saw it? You give me a lot of credit for being sneaky so why wouldn't you pounce on something like that to find out whether or not I was being sneaky?

are you feeling unloved?

I don't need you to address me. I need to understand why you addressed only notty for something which it seems like anyone genuinely having that reaction would have addressed both of us.

[ChannelDelibird]

"Mollie. Come on." seems like it was a meta case from the start so really what are you doing.

That post was meta in as much as I expected you to be better, sure. Reck's post was incredibly uninteresting, especially for someone who's played with him a bunch. It still looks weird that people seized upon it.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm not a fan of being ignored. The fact that you're concentrating more on CDB now, who has been your only vote for pages and pages, and not responding/interacting outside of that isn't helpful.

You're making this vote

in the middle of me and mollie having an ongoing argument

and complaining that she's ignoring you?

C'mon. Context.

[ChannelDelibird]

I don't like this sudden consensus of people scum reading pirate mollie btw

it's like two people?

[ChannelDelibird]

Yeah, Starbuck, but do you not see that complaining that you're being ignored while she is clearly distracted is kinda tone-deaf

[ChannelDelibird]

Big arguments are more likely to stick in my mind than games in which we cooperate quietly, and remembering big arguments lends itself to thinking they must have been about scumreading each other. That seems pretty basic. As I mentioned earlier, I don't know why you would think that I'd deliberately misremember as scum, which is what it would have to be if my saying what I did was scummy

I can appreciate wanting to wait for me to interact with Nexus, though. I was kind of hoping that he would have said more by now that I could judge, because I like having my free read. Give it a little longer.

[ChannelDelibird]

Think I've definitely hit the said-all-I-could-say-without-repeating-myself point now. Got other shit to do now so I'll come back to this later if there's something that you really feel like I need to address.

[ChannelDelibird]

most pple don't expect me to take the time to look shit up.

we didn't argue in empking's game at all.

It's shit like this that I remember most from that game. Maybe it was more one-sided than I remember.

But again you have to believe that I did this deliberately if it were scum motivated and, whether or not I would be sure that you would or wouldn't check my working, why would I consciously give you such an opportunity if this were some deliberate act of scum misrepresentation?

sorry cdb I don't feel good about you and I wish I did! I am used to relying on you when we play together but I am not feeling it in this game.

I don't really care if you can rely on me because I think you might be scum!

[ChannelDelibird]

well, I looked at what you linked and all i see is you getting worked up over something dumb, granted, it was cos I was scumreading you. if you are asking me what the scum motivation wld be, it is cos you tossed out a cple of games, neither of which you called me scum in which was the crux of your read, and I think you didn't think very much of it cos I don't think that you think very much of me as an adversary since I have a hard time articulating my thoughts and most pple don't take me srsly except for the pple who have played several games with me. I definitely see you taking advantage of the disparity in join dates and experience level as scum and I can't shake the feeling that is what you are doing now.

So you're saying that, as scum:

1) When I made my catch-up post, I knew that I was citing events that didn't happen but did it anyway
2) When called on it, I grabbed random games where I remembered that I could at least cite confrontation because I didn't think you would check

While 2 is feasible if you think that I got as far as that point, I don't know why you think I'd let 1 happen. Isn't the more likely explanation that I had specific games in mind that I misremembered? And, if so, why am I more likely to misremember things as scum than town? Because I'm not.

Even if I were dumb enough to do 1 as scum (which I'm not, and that's something that you recognise), what would be the point? To get into an argument with you? Isn't it obvious from the links posted that I really didn't enjoy having those arguments? I like playing with you in general but I don't need pages and pages of difficult argument in my life, especially if I were scum who knew that I were on the wrong side of it.

As for not respecting you as an opponent, well:

a) I hope that I've never patronised you or anything like that because that really is the last thing I'd want to do even though I know that I can be that way sometimes, so I apologise if I have done that.
b) I don't think that I

would

want to be scum in a game with you. You connect with people and get results and don't give up until you're satisfied. I certainly don't think that you're a poor player.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, so mollie, what you're saying then is that I didn't even know to which games I was referring when I wrote the catch-up post? Like I just made up a meta for you? What? Isn't that fundamentally the same thing (that I did something extraordinarily dumb for no reason) as 1 would be?

[ChannelDelibird]

I don't understand what part of this is hard to understand

I have already accepted that the links do not show what I thought they showed

What I am disputing is that you are suggesting that I threw out those links after the fact to justify some meta that I deliberately made up

Which requires the premise that I deliberately made up false meta on you

I want to know why it's more likely that I would do something that pointlessly dumb than that I simply misremembered how our previous encounters of multiple years ago went

[ChannelDelibird]

OK mollie you've said the bolded thing about a million times but the reason why I haven't stopped questioning it is because you can't or won't say

why

I would have done that so I'm done. I'm sorry if I'm genuinely making you angry but it's because I literally don't understand.

I don't find Nexus's failure to deliver on thoughts yesterday particularly concerning (I was playing a game with him for at least a good chunk of his evening) but I'm not really paying that much attention because I know I'll sort him properly when he actually does post something.

[ChannelDelibird]

Nexus is town.

That's probably all I'm getting done tonight, but bank it.

[ChannelDelibird]

prod received; mismanaged time

stuff to follow when i get back from games tomorrow. goodnight

[ChannelDelibird]

I got behind and today's really not great for me to catch up. Work is driving me into a stupor. But I will be doing it ASAP.

I see signs of Davsto being wagoned which is fine with me based on last time I read this game though

[ChannelDelibird]

RIGHT MOTHERFUCKERS

I'M GOING TO MAKE SOME PASTA AND THEN SIT DOWN TO READ THE FUCK OUT OF THIS WHOLE GAME

TREMBLE IN FEAR

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm up to page 41 of my read. Man, it feels like those arguments with mollie (mine, Starbuck's, Reck's) really sapped the life out of this game; it's like half of the players have been as distracted and unmotivated as I am. I don't really know what I'm saying here (I'm not going to apologise for what I said; if I didn't feel like it needed to be said, etc...) beyond 'sorry I've been so absent' but I feel a bit bad that I helped to cause such lethargy.

I'm not sure if I can draw any conclusions from it but I think the general pattern miiiight indicate that mollie is town and that scum are hoping that either she or something in her path will blow up if they just let it.

Won't unvote/revote/whatever until I've read everything (hopefully not ages longer, I'm having to skim a bit to keep my sanity) but that's my instinctive reaction. Feels like towns in previous games where arguments like that have happened have done a better job of rallying around other things to keep things going? That might be a playerlist issue, though.

[ChannelDelibird]

the cdb thing makes me wanna cry and I probably will at some point. he definitely doesn't like me as much as I like him and he shldn't feel bad about it I am just not his cup of tea.

Aw, I think you're awesome! But more than most I really struggle to work with you and make sense of you in mafia specifically. That's fine too!

I don't have

any

cups of tea anyway because I'm a bad Brit

[ChannelDelibird]

OK I definitely skimmed the last few pages pretty hard but impressions probably weren't going to be changed much by that point. I'll go back over later depending on what flip we end up getting from Today, maybe.

Town

mollie

- Relentless commitment to posting and adapting and being useful despite obvious fury at this game is more likely to come from town. Obviously has bugged me for a few reasons but behaviour, game state and my past failures to match her posts with alignment indications all suggest that she's town

Davsto

- Daring a bunch of people to wagon you does not seem like an impulse that comes to scum

Nexus

- has the exact level of investment in this game that I would expect from him as town and his reads are classic Nexus

notty

- the thing about him trying to foster a calm, progressive gamestate rang true with me, and his early-to-mid-Day flip-flopping on me feels more flexibly town

catboi

- one of my more tentative townreads as I'm still trying to get a handle on him as a player but feels solid, alert and invested

Zito

- Early investment being waned by direction of the game but still active and alert

Spiffeh

- I apparently megatownread him for something on my last reread but I might have been reading that part of the game too quickly this time to spot where it came from. Close to null as of right now but I might remember why I townread him later

scotmany

- Became a strong read here. His Davsto crusade feels town

Marquis

- Earliest read, remains strong, feels like someone in control of what he's trying to do in contrast to Team Mafia

Null

Flameaxe

- literally no idea

myko

- not worried about his hyper-read on me; he definitely goes in strong when reading me one way or the other, and i don't think that's particularly indicative. I on the other hand don't have much of a handle on myko beyond always ending up wrongly POE-ing him as scum in skype/face-to-face. I can recognise things he likes to do (resistance to the notty wagon, as it were, doesn't feel out of character at all as either alignment) but not good at differentiating his motivations. a lynch here would feel like a stab in the dark for me right now

MattP

- I didn't get much out of Coug and the little flashes I've seen of Matt feel a liiiiittle bit town but I really wish he were more active, I feel like I

could

read him if he were available enough.

Starbuck

- skimmed a lot of really wally posts but what I did read I just don't have any interest in, frankly

Torn

Reck

- I think that Reck knows that he could coast more than he is if he were scum (a la Red Wedding) and his interactions with mollie feel like they're coming from a town place BUT given my worries that scum may just be hoping that something blew up with mollie, I could certainly see him coming back to push her in between prod dodges as scum to her town. Gut says town, head doesn't want to be fooled like I was in Red Wedding

Espeonage

- AJ looked dodgy but I kinda liked Espy's reaction to myko suggesting he was behaving how he was because he felt like an outsider as a replacement. My closest thing to an out-and-out scumread but I'm secretly kinda glad that it doesn't look like there's any serious chance of a lynch here Today because I'd like to see what Espy does with a full Day and some flips

ckd

- In a pretty similar place to where I was here. Feels like CKD is hitting the same few notes over and over again and there's one or two of those notes that I can't really reconcile as coming from an entirely honest place

Bins

- This feels like what I want to post when I'm scum getting harried over something that feels like it should be insignificant but they're actually right. BUT this is my first game with Bins (to my memory) and multiple people seem to be suggesting that playstyle clash could be a thing. Will probably revisit this on Day 2 when she has to deliver on promise of greater investment

No proper, out-and-out scumreads which feels

ridiculous

but that's where I am. I think that I'm likely going to end up just kinda unexcited about a MattP lynch because that sounds like a less bad idea than a notty one. Near-total ambivalence on myko + population of his wagon leaves me pretty uninterested about making that happen as a counter to MattP.

UNVOTE: mollie
VOTE: MattP

[ChannelDelibird]

Anyone familiar with CDB (thats not mollie)

- Do you think the way he was trying to make her okay with him pushing her lynch is something he would do as town pushing someone he thinks is scum?

I really think there's scum in the pair.

This is really weird on a couple of levels.

While I

absolutely

agree that there's no point trying to convince someone that they are scum, it bugs me that you're not considering what I was clearly doing: not so much justifying to mollie but to everyone, because my reasoning/thought process was being directly questioned and I felt that I had to answer that in order to be listened to. There's also the fact that it's very difficult to avoid being drawn into an argument with mollie. It certainly became completely pointless after a time, which is why I stopped, but given that she objected very immediately to what I was saying, it's a very natural response to be sucked in to defend that.

The dichotomy between me and mollie into which you've settled doesn't ring true, either, for how hard you seem to be coming down on me.

[ChannelDelibird]

The Marquis kill makes me feel a lot better about CKD than I did before.

[ChannelDelibird]

I think PZ's interactions with me make him town. Discuss

Treating Zito as near-confirmed town now.

[ChannelDelibird]

VOTE: pirate mollie for hitting on me.

VOTE: SC go on...

UNVOTE: pirate mollie and VOTE: Marquis for sucking and killing my fun.

UNVOTE: pirate mollie

Fixed the vote tags - Prozac

Mod: I was already voting pirate mollie; I was trying to UNVOTE her.

I still lean towards believing mollie for the crumbing, persistence and general gamestate Yesterday, but given that we now know that Coug was dealing

really awkwardly

with being scum, I would be voting for mollie over these in a vacuum. Awkward scum players are more likely to give into the 50-50-feeling choice of 'do I or do I not open RVS with a vote for a buddy' and the hasty change onto Marquis would appear to chime with that possibility, but the fact that he also

forgot

that he wasn't voting for mollie any more makes voting for mollie look like more of a

thing

in his head.

I'm left not knowing what to think of it, ultimately, because mollie feels town overall but this ticks a lot of buddy boxes for me.

[ChannelDelibird]

Catboi
Spiffeh
Scotmany
Pirate mollie
Marquis
CDB

Are all obvtown

I'm doing some ISO'ing and then I'll engage more specifically

I can't imagine that scum-MattP would not include at least one buddy in this kind of intended townbloc. I'm town, Marquis is flipped town, Spiffeh looks pretty town given Coug's lengthy thrashings-around with him, so I think there's at least one scum in {catboi, scotmany, mollie}.

[ChannelDelibird]

Davsto do you have a bot that changes your avatar every time I read a new one of your posts or something

It's exhausting

[ChannelDelibird]

Catboi was first on the list of those three to iso alongside Coug/Matt...

(snip)

VOTE: MattP

Underwhelmed by the replace in stuff, vote on flameaxe looks like it's for non-alignment-ish stuff and doesn't speak to a believable scumhunting process. Think flameaxe's rudeness comes across as a town sort of arrogance - a lot of it was unprovoked, he's not trying to appeal to people or anything.

On a reread of his ISO, I could be tempted to vote AJ. His tunnel on spiffeh doesn't really look believable, it looks a bit like scum taking a singular focus in the early game to avoid commenting on anyone else. Vote on Flameaxe was also not good.

Actually you know what?

VOTE: AJ

This all happens

very

quickly for my liking but catboi's reasons for suspecting Matt (voting for someone for whom he thinks scum are likely to be drawn to vote, as he later clarifies) doesn't seem like the sort of reasons people bus buddies so I'm inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt

PEDIT: Myko, gonna need you to tell me why 'cats' are why AJ isn't a Mattbuddy.

[ChannelDelibird]

Vote: SC

Like...what is he supposed to defend against. Come on now

This is more the sort of way in which people feel drawn to vote for buddies.

[ChannelDelibird]

VOTE: scotmany

[ChannelDelibird]

I think I clearly explained it is because Reck knows PM well, and after meeting her in public I think it puts her tone into a very understandable town-oriented context.

I have no interest in voting Reck if that's what you're moving towards.

But how someone interacts in real life is not always the same as on a forum. And just because two people know each other in real life does not mean they can automatically read each other.

I understand your viewpoint for voting bbm now, but I disagree with it. I simply don't find that scummy from him.

At this point, given how big scotmany went on SC earlier, this post really doesn't have the paranoia of the MattP slot that I would expect from town.

[ChannelDelibird]

One of my other games just ended so hopefully I shouldn't be so distracted between several commitments that I fail to make time for any of them, or at least less so. No plans today so will be catching up in the next few hours.

[ChannelDelibird]

Going to reread the last five pages or so before going out for games this evening, with fuller catchup tonight/tomorrow

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm not so naive to think that you all will actually suddenly decide to let me off. If I provided that nice Epse wall and everyone's still scumreading me for it, three other, less substantial ones aren't going to change jack.

This doesn't seem likely to come from scum. It's too righteously indignant.

I am surprised that he immediately picks up two more votes right after this.

[ChannelDelibird]

Okay I skimmed through; there wasn't as much as I was expecting but obviously there are at least a few pages further back that I'll have to go over later. I haven't had a chance to read over catboi and scotmany's back-and-forth walls (I wouldn't normally try with posts that long, but I'll make an exception) but I'm glad that I'm not alone in thinking that something is wrong there. Scot's attacked the consistency of my read that doesn't seem to empathise with me at all - it comes across like scum who thought that they had a townread from town feeling irritated that it's evaporated.

I really, really don't get the Davsto wagon right now.

[ChannelDelibird]

Nexus, vote for someone you bell end

[ChannelDelibird]

at the same time, you got CDB coming in, condemning the wagon saying, he doesnt understand it. WHAT? He has got a ton of experience at the game of mafia but "he doesnt get this wagon"...that is bullshit. he might disagree with it (I can stomach that) but doesnt understand it? No way I am believing that.

I just came in to reread the last handful of pages, and the first thing of note that came up is a post from Davsto which is massively more likely to come from town than scum, which immediately brings two more votes to his wagon. I really didn't understand that reaction. Obviously I am aware

to an extent

of why Davsto had some votes because I thought he was pretty scummy for much of Day 1, but his responses to pressure look very town and that people went more in on him after that is baffling to me and makes me think that he's a targeted mislynch.

[ChannelDelibird]

Maybe "I really don't understand why Davsto

still

has a wagon" might have been the best wording but it's getting pretty semantic at that point and I'm pretty sure that the point stands to people who should know better.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB is probably scum. I'll go into detail tomorrow, but his 'case' on scot from ages ago was pretty suspect, and the stuff he's done since isn't particularly convincing.

Oh, great.

[ChannelDelibird]

I am ill today and, while I have technically pointed my eyes at all of the posts since my last post, I haven't really taken much in.

There are worse wagons than Espeonage (I don't haaate a Starbuck vote but my paranoia on mollie is mild at most right now and I think the town is probably better off with her in it atm) but I can't get especially excited. If I were to move my vote, it would more likely be to Bins.

Scot's getting too wrapped up in consistency as his defence. People who were scumreading Davsto on Day 1 should be just as able to reevaluate based on newer posts as anyone.

Mollie: Reck is plausibly scum for activity. I am reminded to an extent of his performance in the Red Wedding, although some of his Day 1 here was a bit more engaged so it might still just be a lack of energy for this game. I can't remember how MattP treated him, though, and that might be instructional.

[ChannelDelibird]

nexus ftw

[ChannelDelibird]

to expand: Man, I'm really sorry about my performance in this one. It came right as the downswing in my enthusiasm was hitting (happens every few months) and I probably should have pulled out but I was excited about having pre-/inned and for a Prozac role PM. Also I suddenly drew multiple scum roles at the same time and suddenly wanted to cry (this might have been easier were I not scum elsewhere)

But I'm thrilled that Nexus made it through! It was weird to lie about his alignment. Props to scot, too, for getting so far. Looks like you were pretty unfortunate to be pipped at the post.