Newbie 1687 (Game Over)


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Post Post #8 (isolation #0) » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:06 pm

Post by Drixx »

kirroha wrote:Drixx please come in and teach the newbies what is RVS : )


Your wish is my command.

VOTE: kirroha for trying to get on my good side. Bwa ha ha. I don't have a good side!



IC Introduction:
Hello everyone. My name is Drixx and I am your IC for this game. IC is a bit of humor, standing for Inexperience Challenged. The IC is a volunteer position served by experienced players who wish to help newer folks have an enjoyable experience in their first games, and to help teach some of the basics of the game and answer any questions of mafia game theory which may arise. There are also SE players in the game, which means that they have played a certain number of games including at least one outside of the Road to Rome. SEs are not obligated to answer questions, nor are they obligated to answer honestly should they choose to answer any questions.

The IC position is not at all indicative of role or alignment, so anything I say using this color should not be used to judge my alignment. This also means that you can trust me to always be honest with you concerning questions of mafia theory, as I understand it, when I speak in this color as the game's IC. Some areas of theory are always evolving or have several viewpoints, and while I will do my best to be thorough, I also will try not to leave you with novels to read. If there are differing views, I will explain the ones I am familiar with and which particular part I agree with.

Please be aware that while I shall not lie to you in my role as IC, you should consider me just as likely as any other player in the game to be on the scum team. The roles are assigned randomly. This also means that while I will always be honest and helpful with my posts and answers about the game, you should be careful as sometimes an honest answer can be very misleading. Mafia is a game with many facets, and deception is one of the most valuable; especially for the scum team. As the game's IC, I have a private topic where I can post thoughts about the game as it progresses, and should there be any time where I choose to play differently than I would otherwise play, because I am the game's IC, I will make a note of it there so you can see after the game.

As a start: Since it takes only 5 votes on day one to lock someone, you should think carefully before placing a vote that might allow the scum team to lock a player. As the days move onward, the number of votes required lessens and placing a vote is something you will want to think about carefully. You can always state that you suspect someone. Generally this is done by using the acronym FoS, which means "Finger of Suspicion". If you place a vote that puts someone one vote away from being lynched, it is generally considered good form to put a bold warning that the player is at L-1 (Locking Votes minus 1). If a player is already at L-1, generally you should state an intent to vote and allow them time to give a final defense, reads, or make a claim.

Finally, there is plenty of time in each day phase, so be sure to discuss things with the rest of the players, ask questions, respond to questions from others, and check back in as often as you have the time. An active game is a great deal more fun than an inactive one.

Please do remember to keep things civil. A little humor never hurts, so long as it isn't in the form of a personal attack against other players. Mafia is a game that can sometimes inspire emotion, and if you get frustrated with another player, remember to attack the play and not the player. That's about it for my introductory post. If you have any questions for me, please bold them and put them on a new line starting with @Drixx or @IC to make sure that I see them, and I'll do my very best to answer it as quickly as possible.

I work as a professor in real life, so please feel free to ask as many questions as you would like; I really don't mind answering them.

Let's have a great game guys!





I've actually been under the weather with touch of winter flu; fever chills since last night. They've abated and I'm eating some chicken soup and hydrating, but I expect I'll be back shivering in bed before too much longer. Wanted to make sure I got my IC post up and let you guys know though.

@mod: V/LA 24 hours please
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Post Post #28 (isolation #1) » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:30 pm

Post by Drixx »

Bit of a slow start here. Someone got an RQS quiz handy?
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Post Post #45 (isolation #2) » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:54 pm

Post by Drixx »

A "wagon" is just shorthand for a "bandwagon". It's idiomatic speech referring to 1950s Americana. In the mafia usage it's simply used to refer to anyone who accumulates a significant number of votes. Wagons are a great way out of the Random Vote Stage (RVS) because they move the conversation away from breaking the ice and into actually playing the game.

How a player responds (or doesn't) to being wagoned early can sometimes very easily catch a scum or sort someone as likely town. If nothing else, we've finally moved on to talking about the game at hand.

As they say, gentlemen and gentlewomen (unless you're scum in which case you aren't) ... the game is afoot.
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Post Post #52 (isolation #3) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:56 am

Post by Drixx »

literallypam wrote:VOTE: Drixx

I'm not going on much more than holy shit that wall of text.


You should read the wall of text. I am the IC, so that "holy shit that wall of text" is part of my job in this game. It has absolutely nothing to do with my alignment, and if you had read it you would have read the part where I even pointed that out.

literallypam wrote:And also because it seems like everyone wants a Drixx lynch but everyone who hasn't voted is scared they'll look bad jumping on now.


Umm... We're 50 votes into the game. Can you quote the posts by people whom you believe want to wagon me but were "scared" to do so?

Regardless of your intent, I think you pretty firmly knocked us well out of RVS so thanks for that at least.
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Post Post #55 (isolation #4) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:45 pm

Post by Drixx »

kagesong wrote:Man, psychological warfare is FUN. I mean, it's great that people don't realize that they give out hints to their alignment even during the BS stage of the game. I think I have a good idea who scum is :D.


Wanna share with the class?
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Post Post #60 (isolation #5) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:40 am

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literallypam wrote:I figured anyway, but can you explain what exactly makes you think that?


Can you answer my earlier question?
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Post Post #86 (isolation #6) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:37 am

Post by Drixx »

literallypam wrote:
Drixx wrote:
literallypam wrote:I figured anyway, but can you explain what exactly makes you think that?


Can you answer my earlier question?


Which one? I thought I had


You said that it looked like many people wanted to vote me but were scared. I asked you to point out where someone had indicated a desire to vote for me and what made you think they were scared.

Chop Chop.
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Post Post #95 (isolation #7) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:05 pm

Post by Drixx »

literallypam wrote:
Drixx wrote:
literallypam wrote:
Drixx wrote:
literallypam wrote:I figured anyway, but can you explain what exactly makes you think that?


Can you answer my earlier question?


Which one? I thought I had


You said that it looked like many people wanted to vote me but were scared. I asked you to point out where someone had indicated a desire to vote for me and what made you think they were scared.

Chop Chop.


You can try to blow this up but a bunch of people voted for you d1. I guess it's my fault because I was busy that day and in a hurry that I didn't read more, but I figured there was some reason based on something you said that I didn't have time to look for.


Ummm... what? Two people voted for me. They were both RVS votes.

You said that several other people wanted to vote me but were afraid to do so. I'm asking you to back that statement up and you reply with this?
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Post Post #104 (isolation #8) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:21 pm

Post by Drixx »

literallypam wrote:Because it seemed like most people were voting for him and he seems more dangerous as mafia than useful as town. Also, it's mostly random.


Two RVS votes aren't "most people".

Why do you say that I am more dangerous as mafia than useful as town? Do you know me? Have you read my games?

I can link you to very good games where I played assigned as mafia and did very good, but I can also show you games where I absolutely nailed it as town too. I would say that I am probably a little above average. There are tons of players on this site who are way better than me.

You still haven't explained who you think was scared to vote for me and why.
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Post Post #106 (isolation #9) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:48 pm

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Setting aside whether or not the 3rd vote is more meaningful than others, you have avoided the question: please quote the posts that make you believe people wanted to vote me but were afraid to do so.

I'm also quite interested to know your mafia experience.
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Post Post #112 (isolation #10) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:31 am

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literallypam wrote:I don't care if it makes me look scummy, i'm getting tired of answering the question and Drixx being like, "LOL QUOTE THE POST."


You said that you saw people who wanted to vote for me but were scared. I've asked you which people... you gave no names. I asked you what they said that made you think they were scared, and you responded with some tripe about voting 3rd against someone.

Basically you just made up a reason to vote, and I've asked you questions to see if you could actually legit show evidence that you had reason to believe other people wanted to vote me but were scared to. You have been unable to produce any evidence and dodged every question, and now you're making a straw man argument.

You're caught scum. People pay attention on this site. You can't just make something up that you have no way to support and hope nobody will question it. Consider this a friendly suggestion to up your game. But not too friendly, because you're scum and we have to lynch you. But you should definitely keep playing here. You also slipped a bit talking about VCA concepts and refusing to talk about your experience, but you probably realized why I asked I'm guessing.

Anyway, that was easy.

VOTE: Literallypam
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Post Post #130 (isolation #11) » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:01 am

Post by Drixx »

literallypam wrote:
Reubus Swagrid wrote:
literallypam wrote:Oh come on, I've answered all your questions, you just keep re-phrasing them.


They're 4 different questions;

How many people constitutes everyone?

Was your vote random or do you actually have a case?

It was random

If so, why did you vote Drixx?

Do posts 47 & 48 contradict each other?


This is the last time I answer:

It was because I saw other people voting him at first.

I'm more comfortable now that I think about it because a good player is more dangerous as mafia than useful as town.


That's a really bad thing to just think as a basic rule of thumb. Some players are great no matter town or scum. Some are far better as one alignment than the other. Since the odds over the long term mean that a player will play town 70-80% of the time, it's a very poor inexperienced player who doesn't work on his town game. I am exceptionally useful as town. If you doubt, I'll be happy to link you to a PT where a hydra partner and I produced 60,000 words of analysis as town in a game in order to put the town in position to guaranteed win. If not for another townie making a very bad play, we had the town at 100% chance to win at one point.

I could also link you to very good scum games by me. You shouldn't really assume I'm better at one or the other. You should read me in
THIS
game.


notachipmunk wrote:Wow I missed a lot of stuff over like 2 days.
So this may just be me, but I'm not sure whether Drixx as an IC is either really really good at this game in comparison to the rest of everyone and to assume what he says is true because of it, or if he's playing a very convincing lie.
literallypam and kagesong seem to draw a bit of attention to themselves.
So far Rufus is giving me a town vibe, as he does not seem to be getting overly and unnecessarily defensive which means for now I should get rid of that random RVS vote thingy I had on him.

UNVOTE: Rufus Delorian

Gonna read through everything more thoroughly before making a new vote.

I also need to learn how to quote multiple things at once so I'm not just throwing out random bits of info without quotes in future posts.


The only time you should assume I am telling the truth (as I understand it) is when I say something in my IC color. Anything else is me playing the game and the only way you could know my alignment is if you are scum. It therefore follows you should not treat me any differently than another player just because I'm the IC. The IC is simply a volunteer position to answer questions and try and help the game be more fun and engaging for newer players.
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Post Post #138 (isolation #12) » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:19 am

Post by Drixx »

It is very slow. I think the best thing we can do about it is re-read the 135 or so posts so far and ask questions about things that maybe didn't stick out the first time. Let's see if we can jump start this puppy.
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Post Post #149 (isolation #13) » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:55 pm

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kagesong wrote:ok, i need to know what ISO means. also, i am amused that I am being teamed with either Reubus or
Drixx
as scum, as they are
my more confident town reads.


Emphasis added because of next quote.

If you look next to the post number of someone's post, there's a link in parenthesis that looks like this: (ISO). Clicking that link will let you view all the posts by a player. You can also use the menu at the bottom of the page to add up to three players to read isolated, which can be very helpful if you need to see interactions in context.


kagesong wrote:Reubus
Well, read his on me, we seem to be thinking the same. I think if we're using the same logic, I can be comfortable that we're on the same side.

Chipmunk
Not suspicious other than trying to tag me.

Drixx
Not sure


Literallpam
seems pretty scummy as i've said. trying too hard to prove not scum

Rufus
Same as Literallypam

Kirroha
because of the detective work either town or REALLY good scum. probably town


There's definitely something inconsistent in your thinking if you can make those two posts (I emphasized the part that changed for no apparent reason in the space of 4 minutes) so closely together. What's up with that?
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Post Post #155 (isolation #14) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:43 am

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literallypam wrote:IMO Drixx spiking the football and say, "YOURE CAUGHT SCUM" just because I was careless when reading through the first day was pretty forced and pre-emptive. Rufus's fos on me seemed much more legitimate.


More misrepresentation. You made a statement you have refused to ever substantiate. Your statement said that multiple people wanted to vote me and that they were afraid to do so. I have asked you repeatedly to quote the posts and show what made you think that. You have refused repeatedly to answer direct questions aimed at you, and now you are trying to excuse yourself and say you were "careless". You don't make statements like "people want to vote for X player but are scared" because you read carelessly. You can't produce one single quote to show what made you think that, and nobody has come forward to say they felt that way.

And to top it off you are throwing shade on me by analogizing my read of you as scum as some kind of premature celebration. You have repeatedly refused to explain or back up your claims, repeatedly ignored direct and simple questions from more than just me, and now you are trying to discredit me. Of course ... the whole situation started with you trying to discredit me when you said that people (plural) wanted to vote me but were "scared" to do so, which was a direct attack on me and painted me as somehow intimidating people or something. The situation began with you going after my credibility, and all throughout the day you have refused to explain yourself in any meaningful way, ignored direct questions, and now you're back to discrediting.

So ... the question to ask is Cui bono?

You appear to be caught scum and this post by you is an encapsulation of all the reasons why I'm reading you as such.
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Post Post #171 (isolation #15) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:33 pm

Post by Drixx »

Welcome to the replacements. I am a little confused why FrogSC2 wants to throw in a 2nd RQS instead of catching up and engaging with the game afterwards, but I'll be his huckleberry.

1. What are all of your experience levels in mafia/werewolf type games?

I first played the game as a live party game as a teenager. I started playing it on another site about a decade ago and I read posts and wiki articles on this site for a couple years before I joined about 15 months ago. I guess you could say extensive.


2. How do you handle pressure?

I take things as they come. I try not to get stuck in any ruts, so there's not really a way to answer this.


3. I see some reads lists so far, can everyone please post your reads? (top 3 town reads, top 3 scum reads, +extras leaning slight town or scum accordingly. NO NULLS.)

I don't really post reads lists; especially when its demanded. What I
do
give is my thoughts on folks, as I interact with them. Occasionally I'll make a post with thoughts on several or even all players, but you won't get any kind of ordered list from me. I find that kind of approach to constrict my thinking and cause me to either fall into confbias or fail to re-assess and miss scum as a result.


4. Are you analytical players or mechanical players?

I am a rational player. I don't buy into the probabilistic side of VCA because even with a large sample size analyzed, the statistical results of any large scale probability study cannot be used predicatively in individual situations. The psychological observations of VCA have some merit, but as often as not I've seen players just use VCA as an excuse to feed confirmation bias. It's much more important to look at the context of votes and actions than just the changes out of context, in my opinion.



As a note, I wanted to use a color to show my answers clearly, but I didn't want to put these answers in my IC color. This isn't the sort of thing the IC color is meant for.
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Post Post #179 (isolation #16) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:59 pm

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Tunneling is only bad if the person tunneling isn't re-assessing and ensuring that it isn't a confirmation bias spiral. I am fairly certain I've re-assessed a few times and this isn't confirmation bias. literallypam simply made a statement trying to push me and had nothing to back it up and has repeatedly dodged questions, to the point where I see no town motivation. LP could easily have copped to having not really had justification for what was said and moved on long ago. There has been literally nothing but lurking and refusal to address direct questions.

I'm interested in why you think we (or me, specifically) need to solve the entire game right this second. I think I've found scum, so why would I want to distract the rest of the game by wandering off and doing something else? I am fairly certain literallypam is scum and I have enough experience on this site to know that if I start pushing other people, I could end up giving my biggest scum read a free pass out of the day, and the very sad truth is that I could be spot on with my read, get night killed, and literallypam could skate through to a win. For whatever reason, the meta here on this site includes basically ignoring what the people who get night killed say and do. It gets written off as WiFoM since you could view the night kill choices a variety of ways.

If you have a case to make about someone, then make it. Your recent string of posts has the distinct look of setting up people to have a go at each other, and that doesn't at all seem like a good idea.
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Post Post #180 (isolation #17) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:01 pm

Post by Drixx »

You're wandering into IIoA territory FrogSC2. You are pushing for other people to attack one another and asking leading questions but what seems totally absent is any actual hard analysis from you. You aren't going on the record with what
you
think about people, except in the abstract "X could be viewed in Y way ... what do YOU think person Z?" kind of way. Getting super bad vibes.
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Post Post #184 (isolation #18) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:33 pm

Post by Drixx »

FrogSC2 wrote:
Drixx wrote:You're wandering into IIoA territory FrogSC2. You are pushing for other people to attack one another and asking leading questions but what seems totally absent is any actual hard analysis from you. You aren't going on the record with what
you
think about people, except in the abstract "X could be viewed in Y way ... what do YOU think person Z?" kind of way. Getting super bad vibes.


I'm doing what you, and other experienced players, should be doing if you want to be teaching how a Town leader opens the field D1.

I'm not even going to touch your discredit of IIoA. That's not only incorrect, it's a low blow.

I'm mechanically pitting scum reads against each other, forcing them to comment on each other in a way that is public and must be honest.

I'm also teaching Town how to go about scum hunting instead of immediately feeding them my analysis.

We have days, you can choose to let me play this out, or you can continue you efforts to close D1 with our VERY limited content and very limited thought about said content.


By my count you set up at least three 1v1, and you say you are pitting scum reads
against one another
. You are scum reading 2/3 of the game at the moment?

You are welcome to play however you like, but you don't have the right to tell me I'm obligated to play your way or else I must be scum. There are a small handful of people I know who can order me to do something in a game and I'll obey, because they have
earned
my respect. You might like to brag about being the MVP of some other site's playgroup, but this is a gigantic pond you have moved into, and there's lots of other big fish; if I had to guess from the way you are trying to bully me, there's a lot of much
bigger
fish here.

You are free to pursue whatever you would like today, but you aren't going to bully me into anything. Rethink your approach. Bullying me and slamming my approach and trying to take me to task for what I should or shouldn't be doing, in your opinion, isn't going to get me to do squat but dislike you.

To quote one of my favorite television characters: "At a very young age, someone should have told you that you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Sir."
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Post Post #186 (isolation #19) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:42 pm

Post by Drixx »

How many times did I say you were free to play however you liked? I simply won't be bullied, and the moment you attached a threat to try and force me to do what you wanted, you were engaging in bullying behavior.

For the record, most of Kirroha's voting in the first 50 votes was during RVS and may or may not have any significance. I don't know anyone who accurately works out RVS on day one. With some flips and the ability to analyze and work out associatives later on, RVS can be a gold mine. Right this moment? Not so much.

Normally I wouldn't respond to something with a threat attached, but I think you aren't the one who was bragging about being site MVP 2 years running, or at least I couldn't find the quote when I scanned your ISO quickly, so I'm extending an olive branch.
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Post Post #189 (isolation #20) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:19 pm

Post by Drixx »

I've never attacked anything but your play, mate. That's the line on this site. Attacking the person behind the keyboard is not acceptable.

You asked me a question (which I've now answered as an olive branch, to which you responded with a very lengthy post accusing me of breaking site rules). You then attached a threat to that question. That makes your play bullying. My only objection is that you felt the need to attach a threat to your request. There's no need for threats.

Despite what you seem to think, I think it's awesome that you are coming in gung ho. That means you are much more likely to be an active player on site and I look forward to playing with you in other queues and larger games.

As for me; if you think I'm scum you're dead wrong.


As for your playstyle; aggressive is fine. The only problem I had, at all, was when you put a threat in play. When you tell another player "You will do what I want you to do or else", that's bullying. I think you will probably run into some folks on site who will push back against your aggressive style, and over time you'll adjust a bit, but I would say be who you are. 99% of what you're doing is
great
. I simply am a bit like a pit bull. If I suspect someone I'll invest the time to make sure, and then once I'm sure I bite and hold on.

I get the flaw in that, which you pointed out: if it's a false positive then there is less produced out of today.
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Post Post #191 (isolation #21) » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:07 pm

Post by Drixx »

Lots of players bully on site. I just don't let myself be bullied, and I generally don't like to see it in the newbie games. It's an effective strategy to provoke reaction to be sure.
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Post Post #234 (isolation #22) » Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:50 pm

Post by Drixx »

Use reply or preview and there's quite a lot of tag explanation at the top. Also you guys come from the same place as Titus. Suddenly this game seems so much less Bizarre to me.
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Post Post #237 (isolation #23) » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:23 pm

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Read the rules at the start of the game. Messaging a player about an ongoing game is a really big violation of the site rules here.

And anyway, you are doing very good at injecting aggressiveness into the game. You got me to respond, and with you two and me I think we can get the others involved more. Let's do it, yeah?
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Post Post #276 (isolation #24) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:01 am

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Wow ... FroGSC2 ... you're going to need to adjust to the site here mate.
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Post Post #279 (isolation #25) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:53 am

Post by Drixx »

You aren't actually obligated to start on the Road to Rome. You must simply complete your first newbie game before you can play in more than one newbie game at a time, and to hit SE status you need 2 newbie games complete and one game elsewhere.

But you can go sign up in another queue any time you like.

If you look at completed newbie games, you'll see that nearly 300 posts is a lot for a day one. I was just as taken aback by the slower pace when I first joined.

The reason I said you will need to adapt to the site is that you've kind of run roughshod over some people's potential plays. Like you pointed out that the PR claim could be WiFoM by a VT trying to draw a kill. Why help the scum team think that through at all? If that
is
a level 2 play, don't help the scum realize it. It's possible they would take the claim at face value and kill it without taking any time during the night to evaluate other slots, and that would be a huge advantage to the town. You pointing out that possibility ensures the scum will evaluate more fully.

Things like that. I haven't done a quote wall just because I don't want to be super negative. The best advice I can give is to play the way you play and just know you'll make some mistakes or some plays that aren't necessarily mistakes but will be viewed as such because of site meta. It's much better to play aggressively and interact and try to actually play the game and make a few mistakes along the way than it is to be passive and lose everything you bring to the table. Which, from what I've seen this game, is a lot.

I hope that makes sense.
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Post Post #282 (isolation #26) » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:45 am

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I'll be happy to give a critique if you like after the game. I don't think it is helpful to the current game state to do it right now. I'm not scum and I see no reason so far to read you as scum so us just talking about game theory and such won't really help.
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Post Post #321 (isolation #27) » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:58 am

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The deadline is the deadline and FroGSC2 caused a no lynch, and I believe it's intentional. I believe he's scum and have strong reasons for that belief. He called out what I have reason to believe was a VT attempting to draw fire by claiming. If I'm dead in the morning you will see my role and it will make sense. If I'm know, I'll say more.
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Post Post #325 (isolation #28) » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:09 pm

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The players don't dictate to the mods. The game mod decides if an extension is warranted or not. No extension was announced, so my expectation is that the day will end without a lynch. I hope I'm wrong, but I expect that to be the outcome. What I said prior stands.
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Post Post #334 (isolation #29) » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:54 pm

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FrogSC2 wrote:In your opinion, do you feel extra time was warranted given the replacements and prods?


Most mods are generous with giving extensions with replacements late in the day. If I were running the game I would have given one. But I am not the mod for this game. I just want you to be prepared for the lynch not to count and just roll with it. The game is about having fun, and rules lawyering is no fun for any party. I'm sure the mod will feel very torn about this, and the delay in the day end may be the mod asking for advice from Mina on how to handle this situation.

PantherPunt wrote:Why did I come back to this site


Because, despite the quirks of some of the community, it's generally quite a lot of fun with a huge variety of games going on at any given time.

PantherPunt wrote:And before anyone says "well gtfo then"

dont


That wouldn't happen, and if it did I would handle it, the mod would handle it, and my guess is the list mods would handle it. That sort of comment is just not at all in the spirit of the newbie games.


Bottom line is that there was no reason to wait until the last second. It puts the mod in a super bad position now, and I don't see how it could have helped.
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Post Post #359 (isolation #30) » Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:28 am

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Wait. Let me get this straight. I correctly identified scum on day one, made reasonably sure I was right, and then dug my teeth in and refused to let go ... but somehow I'm in the possibly not town pile? What universe do you live in?

Nice attempt to take credit for literallypam, btw. I already had that slot dead to rights and it was getting lynched when you replaced in. You had nothing to do with it, other than you didn't noise up the thread enough to disrupt the lynch (thankfully).
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Post Post #377 (isolation #31) » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:01 am

Post by Drixx »

@mod - Does Jailkeeper or Roleblocker resolve first?
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Post Post #378 (isolation #32) » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:02 am

Post by Drixx »

I'm tempted to lynch Frog today, just for suggesting that any sane mafia player would kill their only partner and for themselves into having to night kill 3 times and mislynch 3 times to win, all alone, and without getting caught.

To call that "distancing" might be the most absurd thing I've ever read in my life.
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Post Post #385 (isolation #33) » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:41 am

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FrogSC2 - How do you know there's a roleblocker? There are two setups where a Jailkeeper can exist, and only one of them has a roleblocker.
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Post Post #419 (isolation #34) » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:00 pm

Post by Drixx »

If there was no Jailkeeper then the game is solved. The Tracker, Cop or Doctor would claim and it's GG.

You can't roleblock a Bulletproof, and the BP being known forces scum to kill the jailkeeper or kill outside the PRs because the Jailkeeper can Jail the BP and the BP doesn't lose the 1-shot BP as being Jailed protects them from the kill.
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Post Post #454 (isolation #35) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:34 am

Post by Drixx »

Roleblocker exists 50% of the time when a Jailkeeper does. Roleblock resolves before Jailkeeper. On this site final scum are generally allowed to use both their ability and factional kill.

Therefore you are not logically cleared, FrogSC2. Making derisive statements about how terrible everyone else is and how stupid we are and how you're leaving the site because we're too stupid to realize you are cleared ... when you are actually
not
logically cleared. That just makes you look like you're having a tantrum: especially when you're swearing you're town while at the same time talking about self voting.
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Post Post #455 (isolation #36) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:46 am

Post by Drixx »

FrogSC2 wrote:Something to think about.

If I were scum, I would have NEVER killed Panther. We mindmeld easily. I would have pocketed a strong voice.


But I totally would have just led the charge and refused to take the gift wrapped opportunity you offered me to go elsewhere with the lynch and bused my partner on day one, right? (That is what you suggested earlier this day phase... just applying your own logic to you).
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Post Post #464 (isolation #37) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:42 am

Post by Drixx »

First: you shouldn't self-vote no matter what. It isn't playing to your win condition no matter your alignment at this point.

Second: you probably shouldn't judge the value of this site based upon one game on the Road to Rome. There's a wide variety of game types available, and I suspect it won't take you long to find people who prefer to play as you do. Wherever you come from (you haven't said, that I recall) seems to have a very mechanical approach. It's almost like a hill building algorithm the way you approach the game. And there's nothing wrong with that. Assuming that no BP comes forward, you are mechanically cleared and you've outlined a series of steps that leads to a town auto win condition. That's a fairly sound methodology.

Third: you should stick around just to learn about the equally sound and effective methods that you don't seem to currently view as valid or sound. In my time here I've seen all sorts of things which I initially viewed with disdain and skepticism work consistently. There's more to this game than just the mechanical bits. Some people have become really good at that "more".


P-Edit: So here I am extending an olive branch and I get called terrible and stupid and boring. Never mind that I found and ensured scum lynch on day one. My play is stupid and terrible and boring. *sigh* - Variety is the spice of life my friend. We're not all the same. That's a good thing.
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Post Post #474 (isolation #38) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:19 am

Post by Drixx »

With no 1-shot BP claimed, FrogSC2 is conftown. Without any Cop/Doctor/Tracker claim, then Rufus is confirmed to be telling the truth about being Jailkeeper. That's two conftown. We should let the remaining scum kill them. Foolish to do scum's job for them.

I think my suspect order goes something like this:

PhantomCobalt
Reubus Swagrid
Kagesong


Not sure where I should put notachipmunk. Reubus and Kage could swap places... I can't decide which is 2nd most suspicious to me.
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Post Post #480 (isolation #39) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:54 am

Post by Drixx »

I don't think Reubus gets credit for putting the first vote on Pam in RVS. Scum often vote their partner in RVS. Once the wagon was up, he may have never seen a good chance to get off.
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Post Post #505 (isolation #40) » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:56 pm

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Reubus Swagrid wrote:
Drixx wrote:I don't think Reubus gets credit for putting the first vote on Pam in RVS. Scum often vote their partner in RVS. Once the wagon was up, he may have never seen a good chance to get off.


I voted you in RVS


By the time the vote count in post #55 was posted, you were voting for pam. *shrug*
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Post Post #561 (isolation #41) » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:47 am

Post by Drixx »

kagesong wrote:
notachipmunk wrote:I don't like that Frog even demanded the bulletproof to claim to begin with. As much as he's coming up with some elaborate plans ultimately I feel like they're in his own self-interest to make himself look town regardless of his alignment. Of course it may all be true and maybe I'm wrong but isn't claiming BP bad as town? That's why I don't like that he pushed so much to even put it out in the open. He was hoping there wouldn't be anyone to claim it so he could be free, whether or not he was, and maybe they don't want to claim or just go with his plan. I mean at this point we're all kinda just jumping on the Frog strat because he accounts for about 1/3 of the total posts and has a lot of stuff laid out and I've been taking a lot of what he says as legit too.
I still don't like his "sheriff jailor" claim - decoy or not I feel like it helped him jump roles freely, especially since I took it as sarcasm at first and then he straight up used it as a role. His delayed pam vote also was shady. I mean if you were gonna vote in the last 2 hours, why do it like 45 min later -_-
Sorry if this is all "old" stuff from D1 but I need to think out loud and don't want to dismiss all of this and potentially get sucked into believing everything.

He wasn't hoping for anything. Neither he nor Pam were roleblockers. Therefore, he knew there would be no bulletproof claim. He's avoiding his advised strategy of claiming it as scum, because, obviously, if he were scum he would use that. That's what he's trying to do is make us think he would do what he suggests and then he does the opposite, so we don't look at him.


*facepalm*
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Post Post #564 (isolation #42) » Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:49 pm

Post by Drixx »

kagesong wrote:Obviously my brain is too alternative for this crowd. Thought this was Mafia, not Mob Mentality. I stand on my assertions, if it won't be discussed, I have no further to say until further notice. I do not support the given theory, am not being taken seriously as I point out the flaws and therefore have nothing further to contribute until any given fact is proved.


You are asserting a logical impossibility. Law of excluded middle. Either P or Not P.

Rufus has claimed to be jailkeeper and has not been counterclaimed, ergo it is probable that his claim is true.
Rufus says he jailed FrogSC2 last night, but a death still happened, ergo FrogSC2 cannot be scum
unless
he is a roleblocker and roleblocked Rufus.
If we are in Matrix column 1, then we have a Jailkeeper and a 1-shot BP and scum have a roleblocker.
Since Rufus doesn't clear anyone if a roleblocker is in play, a 1-shot BP should have come forward and claimed by now.

Since nobody has counterclaimed Rufus and since no 1-shot BP has spoken up, then the most probable situation is that we are in row A with only a Jailkeeper and the mafia had two goons, which means FrogSC2 is clear.

This isn't a theory but simply an exercise in logic. If there's a 1-shot BP, they should have long since claimed so we could make properly informed decisions. Scum already know whether there is or isn't because if the remaining scum is a roleblocker, there's a 1-shot BP and if the remaining scum is a goon, there isn't.
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Post Post #571 (isolation #43) » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:33 am

Post by Drixx »

Queue me as interested in the answer too.
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Post Post #594 (isolation #44) » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:50 am

Post by Drixx »

Please don't self vote. I can go into a lengthy explanation of why not if you need.
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Post Post #601 (isolation #45) » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:45 pm

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Which other guy?
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Post Post #609 (isolation #46) » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:29 pm

Post by Drixx »

VOTE: Phantom

Okay.
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Post Post #624 (isolation #47) » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:34 am

Post by Drixx »

I have a huge apology to make to my fellow town. I am 1-shot bulletproof. I simply forgot. It has never happened before in a game. It makes a huge change in how to evaluate things; however, it gives us two conftown.

There's an upside though. The roleblocker knew there was a 1-shot BP and left Rufus alive. Our lynch pool is {Kagesong, notachipmunk, Reubus}. We'll get to lynch two of them... so let's work the problem.

Rufus: I'd like your thoughts on each of those three.
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Post Post #626 (isolation #48) » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:52 am

Post by Drixx »

I know it's completely crazy. I always note the game number if I get something that's not vanilla, and I wrote 1-shot BP for Newbie 1686 by mistake (that game is now over). So when the question arose during the day phase yesterday, it slipped my mind. It wasn't until I won 1686 and went to close out my notes for that game that I saw I had noted 1-shot BP there ... but I was a mafia goon in 1686 and that obviously couldn't be correct, so I went and looked and sure enough ... I'm the missing 1-shot BP.

I'm super duper embarrassed. I've never mixed up my notes or had any issue with keeping games separate. FrogSC2 is probably blowing his top in the dead thread ripping me to shreds right now.
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Post Post #635 (isolation #49) » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:42 pm

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It's simply a co-incidence that I claimed BP in that game. I pointed you to a flawless scum win because it simply happened that I got assigned two consecutive games and I simply put the 1-shot BP note in the wrong game notes. It's as simple as that. The replacements that showed up on day 1 gave me plenty of opportunity to swap away from literallypam, if I was scum. Why would I insist on that lynch when given multiple chances, and even drawing some heat and scum read from FrogSC2, when I could easily have gone elsewhere and never drawn a whiff of suspicion for it?

Co-incidence isn't correlation or causation.
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Post Post #638 (isolation #50) » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:52 pm

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You all realize I could have just "confessed" I was the 1-shot and said I hoped that I would draw night fire since the scum must know I exist, instead of telling you the truth that I mixed up games and literally didn't realize until Phantom was lynched and the thread was locked, right? If I were scum and this was a fake claim, it would not be "Oops I forgot" but "Damn ... I wish I had successfully drawn fire" and it probably wouldn't have happened today right at the day start.

Look at day one and tell me why I would have been the architect of my partner's demise when given every opportunity to go get a mislynch somewhere instead, if I were scum.

This isn't even difficult at all. I would have to be holding the most gigantic idiot ball ever made to be scum and have acted as I have.

VOTE: notachipmunk
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Post Post #640 (isolation #51) » Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:36 pm

Post by Drixx »

I don't necessarily agree that you are the culprit here. Just because I screwed up and you
aren't
cleared doesn't mean you are scum. If you were the roleblocker, I would expect our jailkeeper to be dead. Why isn't he?
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Post Post #642 (isolation #52) » Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:19 pm

Post by Drixx »

Apathy and inactivity will lead to a town loss here guys. Let's get some discussion going. There's certainly plenty to discuss.
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Post Post #652 (isolation #53) » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:39 pm

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Reubus Swagrid wrote:Just noting the only person who isn't confirmed town on the Phantom lynch is Drixx


The only confirmed town is Rufus. Nobody else is confirmed because I'm 1-shot BP which means the scum roleblocker knew about the Jailkeeper due to the blurt by Rufus, and therefore nobody is clear. Your attempt to claim that anyone alive other than Rufus is conftown is troubling, to say the least.
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Post Post #653 (isolation #54) » Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:40 pm

Post by Drixx »

Reubus Swagrid wrote:
Drixx wrote:I know it's completely crazy. I always note the game number if I get something that's not vanilla, and I wrote 1-shot BP for Newbie 1686 by mistake (that game is now over). So when the question arose during the day phase yesterday, it slipped my mind. It wasn't until I won 1686 and went to close out my notes for that game that I saw I had noted 1-shot BP there ... but I was a mafia goon in 1686 and that obviously couldn't be correct, so I went and looked and sure enough ... I'm the missing 1-shot BP.

I'm super duper embarrassed. I've never mixed up my notes or had any issue with keeping games separate. FrogSC2 is probably blowing his top in the dead thread ripping me to shreds right now.


Image

For the time being...

VOTE: Drixx


I would appreciate it if you didn't mock me for making a mistake. Thanks.
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Post Post #662 (isolation #55) » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:18 pm

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Reubus Swagrid wrote:Could you tell me why you're convinced its more likely chipmunk than kage?


I compared the lynch pool in ISO together. The confirmed are me and Rufus. That leaves You, Kage and Notachipmunk. Out of the three of you, notachipmunk's ISO looks more like a fabrication to me, while you are low on content but it seems to be legitimately involved with the game, and I can't find anything that smells wrong about Kage. I can do a spoiler wall on each of you tomorrow if you like. I need to finish some writing that is overdue and get it submitted. It's the only reason I'm up so late.

Thanks for thinking through things. I totally get the shock that I would so royally screw up. I really wish I hadn't. We could have put together a much better plan had town known what scum knew.

I still think we have this. We know it wasn't the replacements paired with pam, because they've been killed. Evaluating what they said and who they threatened or cleared will be helpful. Frog and I had a bit of a difference of opinion obviously and there was some friction. I'm wondering if those two (who are obviously friends prior to here) were killed to put me in a frame?

Anyway ... we need significant content from You, Kage and Chipmunk today so that Rufus and I can read you now and read you earlier and see if we can finish the game today.
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Post Post #667 (isolation #56) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:47 am

Post by Drixx »

Seriously? You guys can clear me using logic alone.

1.) If I were scum, I would not have claimed BP without any pressure on me, nor would it have been claimed anywhere near the way I did. People actually outright said in BOLD for the BP not to claim and hope to draw night fire. I could have said "I hoped the scum would shoot me, but they didn't and I feel like it's time to claim so the town knows nobody is clear" or some blather like that. Instead I told you guys the honest truth of what happened. It's embarrassing and it doesn't do anything at all to help a scum agenda; it in fact brings negative attention to me. It makes no logical sense to take this approach when a much nicer and elegant story was available to me... unless it's the truth. It's the truth.

2.) If I were scum, that would mean that I went after my partner on day one relentlessly, even when I was urged to look elsewhere and even when FrogSC2 was slinging insults at me because I stuck to my guns and said "I find one scum, and I make sure it dies; THEN I worry about the partner." (paraphrased obviously). I not only had the opportunity to go to a wagon on someone else, I was being actively insulted that I wasn't doing so. Please explain to me what rational motive could possibly lead me to do that on day one, if I were scum.

When you take just those two points together, it becomes obvious that I'm not scum. The two of you avoiding looking at context makes it seem likely that one of you is scum and the other is erm ... bad at logic.
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Post Post #671 (isolation #57) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:55 am

Post by Drixx »

At the time of post #321 I did believe Frog was potentially scum, and I thought you had claimed to draw fire Rufus. I was trying to save you and draw fire myself by implying that I knew you couldn't actually be jailkeeper (which would make scum fear I could be cop or tracker and kill me). I legit thought I was a VT and was going for utility. In my mind, me showing up dead as a VT the next morning would have made it obvious to people that I was trying to save you.

Good question for Kagesong.
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Post Post #675 (isolation #58) » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:50 pm

Post by Drixx »

kagesong wrote:
Rufus Delorian wrote:
Drixx wrote:The deadline is the deadline and FroGSC2 caused a no lynch, and I believe it's intentional. I believe he's scum and have strong reasons for that belief. He called out what I have reason to believe was a VT attempting to draw fire by claiming. If I'm dead in the morning you will see my role and it will make sense. If I'm know, I'll say more.


It's a bit of an old post but I'm quoting it here because I was sure Drixx was the bulletproof after it, which was why I was initially reluctant to accept Frog as cleared and kept asking the BP to step forwards.

Also, if there isn't a Roleblocker, I should have been NKd. If there is, it's useful to keep me around as long as BP doesn't claim because it could lead to scum getting cleared...such as if I "jailed" scum last night.

@Kagesong, on D2 you kept arguing that Frog was wrong & not cleared because there could be a Roleblocker, today Drixx has confirmed that there is one but you're not convinced, what changed?


He claimed BP day 3. I see no reason to wait that long. By the way, who did you jail last night?


Check my ISO. I gave the you the reason, which is super embarrassing to me. You may choose not to believe it, but you cannot claim to "see no reason" when I told you exactly why the claim came when it did. I also gave an example of a much better way to fake claim it if I were scum. After all; I could simply have said I was hoping to stop a night kill or simply said nothing at all and claimed only if I got pressure. What's the motive to choose to believe that I would hard bus my partner on day one and then claim for no reason and say I simply forgot?

It's irrelevant whom Rufus jailed because the Roleblocker we
now know
is the last scum can simply shut him off to avoid being caught, and kill whomever he likes.

We get two lynches and there's 3 suspects in the pool. Your refusal to operate logically and you flip flop from your stance yesterday is moving you up that list. Do I need to quote your posts yesterday where you were arguing that Rufus couldn't clear anyone?
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Post Post #679 (isolation #59) » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:54 am

Post by Drixx »

Kage doesn't appear to be willing to be honest about what is actually probable, instead appealing to the possibility space and the least likely place in the possibility space.

Yesterday, Kage was trying to argue that Frog wasn't clear and nobody COULD be clear by Rufus, and actually made a rather snide comment about how we just exclude people who don't think like us here at MS, which is most certainly
not
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Who, besides a 1-shot BP and the mafia roleblocker, would have even come to the logical conclusion that nobody could be cleared? Everyone besides Kage ended yesterday on the assumption that people COULD be cleared, and then 1686 ended and I realized, much to my horror, that I had made a terrible mistake. Given how often I am in 3-5 games at once, it's probably bordering on miraculous and due only to my fastidious note taking that this hasn't happened before, but still.

I believe Kage's behavior yesterday indicates coupled with the behavior today puts Kage at the top of the list. I see no rational explanation for yesterday's behavior unless Kage
knew
there had to be a 1-shot BP not claiming. Today, Kage is taking advantage of the fact that my lack of claim was unintentional rather than strategic to try and make people buy that it's WiFoM.


Simple question: How many assumptions do you have to make to assume my claim is a scum fake claim? (Please remember the assumptions that I would both go after literallypam on day one, and refuse to take multiple opportunities to switch wagons without suspicion).

How many do you have to make to believe I just messed up?

What does Occam's razor say?
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Post Post #681 (isolation #60) » Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:44 am

Post by Drixx »

Occam's Razor.
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Post Post #691 (isolation #61) » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:51 pm

Post by Drixx »

notachipmunk wrote:@Drixx question! At what point did you forget that you were BP? I just remembered looking back at page 1 that in the role pms it asked us to reply back confirming our roles, which I imagine is helpful for remembering roles? Anyway, was it right at the start of the game you forgot due to writing it down in the wrong place or did you remember at any point during D1 too?


I recall thinking about crumbing it on day one. I don't really recall precisely when I forgot this was the game I was 1-shot BP in. I've got a folder on my desktop called "mafiastuff" and inside of there I have a folder for each game I am designing, a folder for games I've modded (off site plus one on site so far) which are complete, a folder for images I use in general, and in the main folder "mafiastuff" I have txt files which are named after the game. I simply noted 1-shot BP in the wrong notepad txt file, and then I just lost track.

Most of what I was involved in that had me a little too spread thin has completed, but in the interests of erring on the side of caution, I will simply say that you can look at my posts and see for yourself how many games I was in. On top of that I'm working on something that I can't talk about, for the site, and I lost a bunch of it when I finally let windows do the free upgrade to windows 10.

As I said at the start of today: I'm super embarrassed with myself. If we lose this game, I will blame myself 100%. It would have been far superior for the town to know yesterday what the remaining scum already knew, and I simply forgot. Having played mafia on forums for roughly a decade, and as a live game going back into my early teenage years, I have a lot of experience, and I am almost always in at least one newbie game as IC ... but that experience doesn't make me infallible. As much as I like to project confidence and be a good example ... I obviously dropped the ball big time on this one.

What really bothers me about it is that if Newbie 1686 had gone on for another day, I may not have realized and we would now be operating upon the false premise that Rufus could clear people while scum would know that to be untrue. Even worse, if today had gone fast it's possible I could have been shot and the no death could have implicated someone innocent as scum. It could have been much worse, which is what really concerns me. Whatever criticism you have of me making this mistake, believe me I am giving myself a flogging 1000x worse about it.
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Post Post #697 (isolation #62) » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:09 am

Post by Drixx »

Ummm... self-voting is never playing towards win con as town, and once there is only one scum, it's not for scum either. Self-voting is not cool Kage.
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Post Post #700 (isolation #63) » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:55 am

Post by Drixx »

I guess someone can hammer. I see no reason for this move by kage other than it being a WiFoM move.
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Post Post #704 (isolation #64) » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:08 pm

Post by Drixx »

notachipmunk wrote:Is self-voting like this something people do a lot in games?


It's usually considered poor form. It's either a gambit to make people think the player is just feed up and wants out of the game, which is manipulative, or the player actually is fed up and wants out of the game but won't replace out. If Kage were to flip town, the only explanation I could see for the behavior would be a desire to have this game "count" as a completed game, whereas replacing out would make it not. However, if Kage were to flip town, I would ask the mod to ensure the listmods handled it. Play to your wincon is a bedrock rule of the game.

I would have hammered already, except I'm trying to get Kage to engage instead of run a gambit on us or just check out of the game and harm us on the way out. Reasonable doubt and all that.
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Post Post #709 (isolation #65) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:15 am

Post by Drixx »

VOTE: Reubus Swagrid

Come out and play.
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Post Post #734 (isolation #66) » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:15 am

Post by Drixx »

@Mod: The countdown timer seems off

[line]95[line]
We're in LYLO now. I would like each of you to tell me why you are town and why the other is scum. Your answers combined with my own re-reading will determine the outcome of the game.

To my fellow townie: please don't slack; you doing a thorough job will force the scum to also do it, except the scum will have to be telling a story instead of actually evaluating things, and that's our best chance to catch him.

This should go without saying, but you should NOT vote in LYLO until you are as sure as possible. One wrong vote and the scum can instantly win. Use FOS instead.
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Post Post #736 (isolation #67) » Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:25 pm

Post by Drixx »

Ummm... I'm the 1-shot BP. There's overwhelming logical reason to believe my claim and similarly overwhelming reasons why you shouldn't believe I'm scum.

So yeah, I left myself out of it because I don't want to deal with the WiFoM of reading you guys do the obvious analysis of me, which is really just a WiFoM loop without an exit. Occam's razor should help: In order to posit me as scum, you must assume that I went after my partner on day one and refused to budge or go to a different lynch, despite the numerous opportunities given to do so without attracting suspicion. If and only if you find that probable should you even bother considering me as I've claimed BP.

And yes, your analysis of one another is very much for me. As I said before: whichever of you is town will do an honest evaluation of the other. Whichever of you is scum knows for sure that the other two of us are town and your evaluation has to be made up to try and implicate someone besides yourself. Unless whichever of you is scum is really really good, you'll have a hard time putting something out that looks perfectly townie, and I'll catch it.

Clock's ticking, btw. You could have already done as I asked. Of course ... Reubus hasn't even bothered to show up for quite some time so...
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Post Post #746 (isolation #68) » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:48 am

Post by Drixx »

After my disastrous fail, if one of you claimed BP today I would instantly vote you because it would strike me as a "Hail Mary" attempt to avoid a loss by scum.

There was a really specific reason for why I asked for what I did. Both of you have given me some different things, and that's cool because it helps in other ways ... but I would really like to see what I asked for. I realize I gave away the lede when I explained that scum would have a hard time putting together a convincing narrative, but really.

Notachipmunk is currently my thought as last scum due to #743. Whichever of you is scum is a roleblocker and thus knows for certain I am telling the truth. Yet notachipmunk is trying desperately to appear as if she believes nothing, to the point of stating she can't make a case against Reubus because she doesn't believe he's scum ... but she also doesn't push me either. That's a pretty impressive amount of hedging.
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Post Post #752 (isolation #69) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:34 pm

Post by Drixx »

I'm confident now.

VOTE: notachipmunk

If you fooled me Reubus; congrats.
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Post Post #754 (isolation #70) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:46 pm

Post by Drixx »

In post #751, you clearly began with the premise I was scum, and picked out only things that supported that premise. You dismissed or ignored anything that didn't fit your narrative. If you are town, you need to learn that is a very bad way to go about figuring things out. You need to look at the totality of evidence and let it guide you to a conclusion.

I am happy with my vote. Your #751 looks like scum narrative to me. If I'm wrong, then it's on me. I already severely hurt town by screwing up my notes. Either way we slice it, if town loses it's my fault.
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Post Post #756 (isolation #71) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:57 pm

Post by Drixx »

If you really believe I'm scum, please explain:

1.) Why I would bus my partner on day one, and display absolute certainty I was right, when absolute certainty is something scum rarely if ever display. Scum frequently get caught because they hedge during twilight and appear to know a town flip is coming. Anything that displays firm knowledge of someone's alignment from scum is a fast route to a loss.

2.) Why would I still keep busing my partner after FrogSC2 and his friend showed up and turned the game on its head, giving me like a dozen easy opportunities to go after someone else?

3.) Why would I claim BP under no pressure at all and not even being really scum read at all? Why would I also point out the game that I accidentally marked as me being 1-shot BP, which had ended during the night phase of this game, in which I was scum and fake claimed BP? (You should read the scum PT for that game; my scum partner was actually going to fake claim it but had made too many posts to do it without drawing a ton of suspicion).

3a.) For the record; the optimal play for a goon who is alone with a jailkeeper is to withhold the kill in order to frame someone. It's better for the scum to have the town complacent than at high alert.
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Post Post #757 (isolation #72) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:58 pm

Post by Drixx »

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and some time to answer those questions.

Unvote
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Post Post #761 (isolation #73) » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:45 pm

Post by Drixx »

As far as day one goes, you have observed something crucial but you're missing what it could mean.

What do you think scum partners do early in the game? Do they vote for each other or avoid voting for each other? Which is more likely to help them later in the game?
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Post Post #764 (isolation #74) » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:19 am

Post by Drixx »

You've played with me Reubus, so if you're town you should know I'm town. The problem I have with you is that you refuse to play ball. You won't give substantial posts with cases against me and notachipmunk nor are you willing to point out why I should town read you.

Notachipmunk's post was skewed and appears to have been made with a pre-set agenda, but at least she is engaging. Can you do the same?
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Post Post #767 (isolation #75) » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:11 am

Post by Drixx »

Yes; scum partners frequently vote for each other in RVS or shortly after RVS. Reubus' vote was super early and from my perspective (since I know for sure I am indeed 1-shot BP as I've claimed), that
might
be distancing. Once literallypam moved into obvscum territory, Reubus had no safe opportunity to jump off the wagon unless I did so first, since I was the one who was pushing the case hard and refusing to relent. That by itself doesn't make him scum, but it does make one thing fairly clear: Between Reubus and myself, I'm the only one you have to assume intentionally bused a partner on day one if you posit me as scum. Reubus could have simply been doing some distancing and got stuck on the wagon with no safe opportunity to jump off.

I mean ... if Reubus had jumped off the wagon at some point once I was convinced pam was scum and expressed my confidence, and then pam flipped scum, how would Reubus getting off the wagon appear to you? It would look pretty bad right?


As for #766

Just temporarily accept the following premise:

1.) I have been honest with my BP claim and am therefore town.


That means I know one of you is town and one of you is scum. If you both accept that my claim is true, then both of you have to make a case against each other and show why I should town read you, because ultimately my vote will be the deciding factor and determine who wins.

The problem is that you don't accept the premise that my claim is true, which is totally your prerogative. If you did/do accept the premise; however, and if you are town, then you would automatically know the other player is scum, and so starting from that premise and going to find evidence is logical and rational in that case, whereas it is almost never a good idea to use that approach in mafia when you aren't sure. The problem with how you evaluated me is that you didn't look at the evidence and let it tell you whether I'm telling the truth or not. You started with the premise that I'm scum and you quoted only things you could interpret to support that hypothesis. You also left out things that couldn't be used to make it look like I am scum but do give weight to me being honest. You also chose deliberately to interpret similar evidence differently in my case than in Reubus' case.


You also haven't explained why I should believe you are town. One thing that's weighing in your favor is that you are at least engaging. Reubus is dodging and I'm not sure why. It's not that many posts, so Occam's razor suggests he's trying to avoid doing what I asked because he's afraid I'll find a slip in the narrative he weaves (assuming he's scum).
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Post Post #773 (isolation #76) » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:41 pm

Post by Drixx »

It's on me and I absolutely hate being in this position. Both of you have posted things which set off red flags today. I hate the idea of "gut" because I don't believe that it is anything more than the subconscious mind picking up on something, and I feel like any "gut" read should be able to be backed up with rational/logical reasoning.

That said ... I'm going to go with my gut and hope it's the right call.

VOTE: notachipmunk

Please don't leave us hanging whomever is scum. If you won, just tell us. If you lost, don't leave us hanging in suspense. Any way you slice it ... whichever of you is scum played well enough that I don't at all feel confident.
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Post Post #774 (isolation #77) » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:41 pm

Post by Drixx »

Okay Reubus; I know you're here ... so did we just win, or are you a scumbutt?
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Post Post #776 (isolation #78) » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:51 pm

Post by Drixx »

The deciding factor was that your fake analysis didn't appear to at all consider the scenario where I was telling the truth, which made that big post of yours look like it was designed to get Reubus to vote me. If you had made that post look like you were open to all possibilities, I almost certainly would have voted Reubus, because I couldn't get him to engage and give me what I was looking for to read.

You nearly pulled it out. I sat here for awhile trying to decide which of you to vote.
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Post Post #778 (isolation #79) » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:01 pm

Post by Drixx »

I am for real super embarrassed that I actually forgot I was the BP. What were you thinking when no BP claimed? You knew there was one right?
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Post Post #788 (isolation #80) » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:40 pm

Post by Drixx »

A case against me and/or chipmunk. The point of my request was for me to be able to see the underlying thinking. Generally the hardest thing for town in the endgame is getting everyone to engage enough that the town players can evaluate people from scratch.
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Post Post #792 (isolation #81) » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:06 am

Post by Drixx »

@Frog - I came from a site that used 48 hour days with 24 hour nights, so the pace here was a huge adjustment for me as well. You want a laugh ... go find my earliest games and see the huge wall posts I used to make.
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Post Post #800 (isolation #82) » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:55 pm

Post by Drixx »

Would anyone like a post-game critique while the game is still fresh in mind?
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Post Post #808 (isolation #83) » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:49 am

Post by Drixx »

I got busy. I will give out critiques via PM this afternoon.
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Post Post #811 (isolation #84) » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:01 am

Post by Drixx »

FrogSC2 wrote:Drixx - shot you a PM WRT MU champs. Please shoot me a msg back.


I don't have any say or sway in that. I just play and moderate games; not a listmod or admin of any kind. I would PM Zoraster and ask if you can advertise that in Mafia Discussion.
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