A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Axelrod]

(To the theme from The Muppet Show)

Town

: It's time to do some lynching
It's time to beat the Night
It's time to meet the Townies on the Mafia Game Tonight!

Mafia

: It's time to put on false claims
It's time to start some fights
It's time to get a mis-lynch on the Mafia Game Tonight!

Serial Kille

r: Why do I always come here
My odds to win are lame
It's like a kind of torture
To have to play this game

All

: And now let's get things started
Why don't you get things started
It's time to get things started
On the most sensational, INSPIRATIONAL,

CELEBRATIONAL

,

MAFIATATIONAL

THIS IS WHAT WE CALL OUR MAFIA GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME!

(Honk)

[Axelrod]

(for reference) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9yAV8uQ7g

Also, continuing the futile fight against evil Hydras

Vote: The Wrong Lynch

[Axelrod]

lol, this is good. How long did you work on it?

I will confess right now part of that was plagiarized, from another Musical Mafia game on another site a long time ago that no longer exists. It just seemed fitting.

[Axelrod]

(for reference) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9yAV8uQ7g

Also, continuing the futile fight against evil Hydras

Vote: The Wrong Lynch

Why didn't you vote the hydra that already posted in the game?

(1) You are all equally worthy,
and
(2) I paid zero attention to who had already posted.

[Axelrod]

Seniors is, indeed, worthy of a vote. But more right than Wrong?

[Axelrod]

@Axel: why is seniors worthy of a vote?

Is this a serious question?

[Axelrod]

@Axel: why is seniors worthy of a vote?

Is this a serious question?

Why does it being serious or not have anything to do with your reply?

Well, it has to do with why you are asking the question. It seems an odd question to me.

[Axelrod]

Well, it has to do with why you are asking the question. It seems an odd question to me.

I assume when you said they are worthy of a vote, that you're getting out of RVS into serious territory, so I asked.
Once again, why would my question being serious or not affect your answer?

Seniors is a Hydra. That makes him just as good a vote as The Wrong Lynch for purposes of me taking a stand against Hydras. I was making a pun. I would have thought that was obvious (more right than Wrong?)

You asking me to explain it is like asking (seriously) for someone to explain a RVS vote.

[Axelrod]

So is the Piped Piper. :p

I know! So many of you....

Seniors is a Hydra. That makes him just as good a vote as The Wrong Lynch for purposes of me taking a stand against Hydras. I was making a pun. I would have thought that was obvious (more right than Wrong?)

Well it wasnt as obvious to me, considering we were just talking about the seriousness of the votes at the time.
Now, are you seriously policy lynching TWL because they are hydra? They have made a few posts, what do you think of them?

Geez. No, I am not

seriously

policy lynching TWL because Hydra. I have no actual opinion of them yet.

I am having a hard time believing that you could seriously believe that either.

[Axelrod]

On Hydras:

So, my whole game is reading people. Getting into their mindset. Reading what they said before vs. what they are saying now. Then re-reading them. Finding the inconsistencies. And a lot of time it's tone. Hydras can just make that exponentially more difficult. Because they are naturally inconsistent and don't have the same tone from post to post. That's (a)

(b) is a principle thing where being in a Hydra can be an excuse to be lazy and not post because there's someone else to pick up the slack for you.

(c) Is me being the old man shaking the stick. When I started playing, there were no such things as Hydras....

[Axelrod]

So, so far, I like Mirhawk, and I like Sir Cakes. I also really like TicTac's first post.

I am not a fan of Sakura, or Davesaz.

@Sakura: (per post #64) did you

really

think that I was advocating for a "policy" lynch of all Hydras? Really?

@Davesaz: please explain to me how you feel I "pulled back" on "the Hydra thing" (post #69). Do you think I am advocating for a policy lynch of all Hydras?

Wrong Lynch is fine

Unvote

. Pied Piper is also fine. Friendless Seniors hasn't done anything.

@Beeboy: when you say you know how Friendless Seniors would react to you, are you talking about one of the hydra heads in particular? Or is this a Hydra that you have played with before? I don't get your conviction given that Seniors hasn't done much of anything.

[Axelrod]

another site a long time ago that no longer exists.

What was the theme/purpose of that site?

It was Misetings. Which started as A Magic the Gathering Humor website. But then they also played Mafia. Sadly, it died. I got there from MTGSalvation, which is another MTG site where we play Mafia games.

[Axelrod]

@Beeboy: when you say you know how Friendless Seniors would react to you, are you talking about one of the hydra heads in particular? Or is this a Hydra that you have played with before? I don't get your conviction given that Seniors hasn't done much of anything.

I have a reasonable understanding how both would play. Randomly voting a lynch bait and providing no other good content is verrryy verrrrry far from what both would do as town. This is just general but even more truthful in regards to them because they know snarky is lynchbaity.

The delayed reaction to my joke buddy comment is more general and less specific to them.

In as much as this is a meta-argument and I have never played with either of those people, I am curious if anyone else who has played with them (Friendless Seniors/hiplop/Errantparabola) agree/disagree with this assessment?

[Axelrod]

I think that "hasn't done much of anything" is a fine reason to scumread a person. Where's the scumhunting? Where's the poking around for reactions? Do they have any reads? Why aren't they engaging with anybody? He was here for about an hour and he did very little in that time, though he made several posts.

"Hasn't done much of anything"

is

a perfectly fine reason to vote someone. But what I was talking about was less the vote than the

conviction

with which it was made. I think Beeboy said he was something like 90% certain FS was scum. And that was simply way out of line for what FS had actually posted up to that point. Which was basically nothing. So, like, you can definitely vote someone for doing nothing in the very early game, and that's fine. But declaring them scum with 90% certainly over it is just wrong.

What I'm trying to assess is Beeboy's genuineness about it though, and right now he's coming off as pretty genuine, at least. So, that's a positive.

False dichotomy. You leave out the possibility that the behavior is neutral (or that I haven't formed an opinion on it yet) but the responses to my comments from him and others will help me sort people.

That's not how a false dichotomy works, as evidenced by the fact that you managed to answer my second question while pretending you didn't.

Both of the statements you made about Axel were accusatory in tone, they didn't sound neutral to me at least. Do you think Axel is town or scum?

@B
Dunno man, being self involved isn't really a scum tell.

You presented an either/or question which presented that there could not be any other answer, where the answer was none of the above. It doesn't get any more false dichotomy than that.

I made it very clear that my read is null. Your push however is not.
VOTE: Mirhawk

Ew. Bad vote.

First, you were totally casting aspersions on me without voting for me, which, is a thing you can do - not every suspicion is worth a vote - but when you get challenged for it don't pretend it wasn't what you were doing either. Also, you totally did NOT make it "clear" that your read was "null." What you said was (in response to the challenge) that Mirhawk was leaving out a 3rd possibility that the behavior was "neutral" or you hadn't formed an opinion on it yet (which is two different things), without actually saying that this was, in fact, your position. How was this "clear"?

Skimmed again, if i missed something directed at me please let me know,

Missed mine:

[@Sakura: (per post #64) did you really think that I was advocating for a "policy" lynch of all Hydras? Really?]

Your 68 was a direct response to people making comments (in particular Sakura's 64 which your 68 quoted) about your apparent interest in PLing hydras. You posted something, people reacted, you posted a retraction. By definition that is pulling back.

This doesn't even make sense. If you RVS someone, and another player

demands

(in very serious fashion) that you explain whether you were seriously voting or not, and you say "Uh, no." Have you "pulled back?"

Because that is exactly what happened.

My comment was, in part, a means of prodding you to find out if you would be defensive about it being called that. You later posted about hydras again, and I pointed out the apparent inconsistency between 68 (implying it's not serious) and the later post explaining your stance. I don't remember if you responded to that or not...

Do I think it was serious? Don't know, your own posting implies it is at least partially serious, but even that could just as easily be a joke or itself a reaction test. I don't think it's alignment indicative by itself, since it's hard to distinguish between scum testing the waters and town fishing for (scum) sheep.

What part of my posting suggests in any way that I have ever "seriously" advocated for policy lynching of Hydras? It is boggling my mind that anyone could genuinely come away with that impression.

The absolute most you might conclude (and that I would even cop to) is that I have a "policy" of randomly voting for Hydras during the RVS stages of a game when I have no one better to vote for, as a sort of silent protest against their existence.

[Axelrod]

So, I went to look closer at FS and, yeah, this is a truly horrendous series of posts.

VOTE: snarky

real vote

This is exactly how Snarky plays and it surprises me both you and EP both don't know that.

Never seen snarky as scum, his push was weird.

Guess who I didn't push in MSND? Snarky. Your push on me here seems fabricated beeboy. You usually do this as town, but not to this degree. I think you're trying to play to your town meta too much

I'm a bit behind

Characterizing the

single

vote (also the single post) of SnarkytheSnowman during the very early stages as a "push" that felt "weird," in order to justify his own vote. That makes zero actual sense.

Also I still want that slot to explain the Snarky vote because they are dodging that.

I haven't been around chill out buddy.

I don't think you're scum but like if you keep pushing this I'm gonan get mad

You're going to get mad? If people keep pushing on you? Welcome to Mafia, I guess. Also, you might think that if someone you really thought was Town was pushing on you, you would be trying to, I don't know, convince them of the innocent error of their ways. As opposed to threatening them. Like that's going to be productive.

I'm largely ignoring beeboy here. I dislike how much we are being discussed. It makes no sense considering we had done nothing at the time

The way he says he "dislikes" being discussed so much. It's like, you know who doesn't like being discussed? And defending on the basis that they hadn't done anything?

ATM scum reads of varying degrees on Tictac, Seniors, Ogre, and Beeboy.

"scumread on the people beeboy is pushing AND beeboy"

this guy is fencesitting, stirring the pot and trying to get momentum on our wagon for seriously shoddy reasons.

VOTE: sircakez
sorry ep, this is the guy who needs to die

And finally the "look over there" vote. The rationale here is just bad. Seems to think you can't be suspicious of a player and also other people that player says are suspicious at the same time. Which you can, and it wouldn't be fencesitting even if you couldn't, it would be...something else. Inconsistent mindset maybe. And stirring the pot is not scummy in the first instance. Basically none of this makes any sense from a Town mindset. He's just lashing out. Feels like scum who is angry at getting caught for no good reason.

Vote: Friendless Seniors

[Axelrod]

Unvote;

Vote: pistachi0n

Unless Amiham comes back and says her claim was, in fact, some kind of gambit, this is just what needs to happen. I don't believe in Two millers.

[Axelrod]

Who said anything about a Jester?

[Axelrod]

Unvote

Part of me wants to strangle Ami. for lying. It's a real pet peeve of mine when Townies try to get fancy and lie. I think it blows up in their face way more than it does any good.

On the other hand, I also don't think she gambits like that as scum. So, I guess it worked?

Vote: FriendlessSeniors

Back to this, pending a re-read.

[Axelrod]

I haven't re-read yet, that is still coming, but I had this thought. What about a "Musical" claim. i.e.: just what Musical you are from, and nothing else?

Thoughts?

[Axelrod]

Wow, you're just completely useless, aren't you.

[Axelrod]

I haven't re-read yet, that is still coming, but I had this thought. What about a "Musical" claim. i.e.: just what Musical you are from, and nothing else?

Thoughts?

What does this accomplish?

Maybe nothing. Maybe something?

You think it's a bad idea?

[Axelrod]

The reason I was asking about Musical claims is because, from a set-up perspective it seems to me there are basically three possible scenarios:

(1) The Mafia are all from the same Musical. This would be very flavorful, but subject to being broken by mass-claiming. So if the Mod. did this, he'd almost certainly be providing the scum with some kind of false-claims to prevent the game being broken open D1 by exactly what I'm talking about. But even if that's the case, we do force the Mafia into those false-claims, make them lie, and possibly there's a way to take advantage of that later. A "Musical" Cop, for example. In a scenario like this, a "Musical" Cop would essentially be an actual Cop, but might not even know it.

The risk/downside would be if there are scum roles/abilities that benefit from knowing which show someone is from. My feeling is that - if such roles exist - it probably plays to both sides.

(2) The Mafia are not all from the same Musical, but, flavor-fully, they are all "villains," or evil characters from their respective Musicals. Again, if that were the case, we'd expect the Mod. to give them some kind of cover roles. The Mod. might also give members of the Town scummy-sounding roles from their Musicals, which could further give the Mafia cover. In this scenario, they don't necessarily have to lie about their "Musical", if their mod-provided false-claim is from the same one, but their might be other benefits - if there's an imbalance in the way the Musicals are divided, for example. Or roles that can "character" Cop. Same kind of risk/rewards as above.

(3) The Mafia are not all from the same Musical and they are not all "evil" characters. i.e. they are just randomly spread out across the whole of Musicaldom. There's no flavor to this, but it keeps players from mod-gaming or "cracking" the game by mass-claims. In this scenario, the claim probably doesn't do much, but also probably doesn't hurt.

Of course, the other reason for asking was just to feel out people's reactions. The only real one I got was this from podoboq:

I think this idea is cute, but I'd rather not put any stock in flavor claiming. Maybe a townie has a highly scummy musical for flavor. Somebody will use it as an argument to lynch him. I think it's cool to do that at some point in the game, but round-robin flavor claiming day one seems to early.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable (and also natural sounding) response, and I'm town-leaning podoboq (not just for that, but his posts in general).

I know I'm going to get blasted for pointless "set-up" speculation, but I don't care. Bring it on.

[Axelrod]

I've finally caught most of the way up from the weekend.

Currently Townleaning hardest on Amihan. Even aside from the fact I think it's extremely unlikely that a scum counter-claims pistachi0n in that spot, I like her other stuff, especially the part where she admitted she wanted to get town-read so she wouldn't have to scum-hunt so hard. Those kind of things are just not natural for scum to say. Not that a strong scum player can't fake it, but it's much harder.

I also still like Beeboy. The most active player is always going to get a favorable nod, and I liked his early enthusiasm. I don't know about his "meta" argument against Friendless Seniors, but it at least felt like a genuine push, and not manufactured. I've also got a note that I agreed with #734, which is where Beeboy points out that he pulled back on his posting because people were complaining about it, but FS was still using him as an excuse to not play.

Kind of like Tammy for a lot of the same reasons, particularly early enthusiasm. I slogged through the whole back and forth with Wrong Lynch, and basically came out of that more agreeing with Tammy than Wrong. I don't have a "scum" read on The Wrong Lynch, but he's sort of fallen back to Neutral.

Other people I like okay to this point: podoboq, Sir Cakes, Mirhawk. Which maybe deserves a bigger post, but I don't see the Mirhawk hate. I mean, I understand, but I don't agree.

People in the middle: Pistachi0n, Pied Piper, Tic Tac, TrueOgre, Sakura Hana, Skybird. The Miller claim is kind of null to me. If pistachi0n had done it before most of the people in the game had already posted it would have been a stronger play, but the delayed entrance made it a much less risky proposition as a scum gambit. and then he was away for another day after, and by the time he came back Ami was no longer even voting for him. He hasn't done enough of anything else to give me a strong feeling about him. TicTac I thought had a strong entrance, but then the rest of his posting has been kind of meh. Sakura it's possible there's a language or cultural thing going on there but the whole exchange with him was just weird. The way he jumped on whether or not my random vote was serious did not make any sense at all. Skybird hasn't done much of anything. I kind of liked Ami's point about him, so he might be more a leaning scum than a total null.

I feel like Spiffeh is going to be impossible to read as someone who essentially posts nothing but 1-liners. I so cannot do that. I don't actively dislike anything he's said so far though.

Dramonic is like Spiffeh but with less content and worse opinions. He's definitely possible to be scum. The other people I like the least are (still) Friendless Seniors, and Davesaz. I also do not like the lurkers - Swordworth and SnarkytheSnowman. But that's almost as much a principle thing as anything they have actually posted.

I know some people asked me some questions in there and I'll get back to those in just a bit.

[Axelrod]

[quote="In post 570

So, I went to look closer at FS and, yeah, this is a truly horrendous series of posts.

I did not like this post at all. Seniors was already being pressured in many ways and to me, what you've done here is switch your trajectory and make a stong post justifying it. Too much.

In your own words and also in a couple of sentences, please sum up why Seniors is scum in this game.[/quote]
Okay, (1) I haven't said "Seniors is scum" and don't expect to say that anytime soon with any degree of certainty. This is just an early vote for me. I rarely, if ever, will make a pronouncement like that without a lot more information, which usually comes later in the game. For this reason, I get criticized for being waffly and/or not taking strong enough stances, but that's the way I am. It annoys me when other people declare someone to be scum with a degree of certainty they have no business having so early in the game.

But, assuming you're really asking "Why do you think Seniors is the best vote right now (beyond what you already said in the post where you voted for him)." I don't know what else to say. His first vote was essentially an OMGUS vote on a lurker. He then made one decent post (#190), and went right into the series of post for which I voted him. (#252 and sequence). Those posts were all just bad.

And since then, I haven't seen any reason to move the vote. He's complained that Beeboy's tunneling him, but not done anything to change his mind either. He got all sulky and said Beeboy sucked the "fun" out of the game for him, which I could easily see happening to a scum who's getting caught for what they think are garbage reasons.

I will say I think the "EP" head sounds better than the "Hippy" head? At least, as best I can tell, I think most of the posts I don't like seem to be coming from that one, but that could just be the one head not being as good at being scum as the one head just being more Townie. And even the EP head appears to have defaulted to a "Sheep" vote behind another player, so that's not particularly great either.

[Axelrod]

Sorry I messed up the quotes. That was TrueOgre's question to me from #570.

[Axelrod]

@Axelrod

Regarding 288, thanks for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense. Being 90% certain seems like hyperbole to me, but I agree that he seems sincere in his hyperbole. Are you still townreading Mirhawk?

Pretty much.

I liked all Mirhawk's early stuff. I thought his questioning of davesaz was right on the money. The flack he's getting right now is entirely based off his supposed illogical reaction to Ami's "counter-claim" but I don't have a problem with what he said. I mean, this is the "reaction" post:

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

He's saying, we probably should string up pistachio in this situation, but he's also slightly worried about us being burned by this being a scum gambit. And that's not crazy-talk, even putting aside the meta that he got burned by something like that before. I mean, I get that this is the position a scum

could

take who knew that pistachio was not scum with them, but I almost think that it's

less

likely a scum (who knows that neither pistachio nor Ami are scum with him, and is probably laughing at dueling Miller claims) would even hedge a little this way. Why not just take the free lynch? And then his questioning of Ami when Ami comes back and starts being cagey - all "let's not be so hasty" - is perfectly reasonable.

I don't think people are thinking this one all the way through.

[Axelrod]

Axelrod, I think everything through. Too far through, generally speaking. Your point that scum!Mirhawk has little to nothing to gain from reacting this way in this circumstance is valid, but that doesn't change the fact that he did act in a fashion which, contrary to your beliefs, really does not make any sense. If you have ANY doubt about a counterclaim, you don't lynch the fucking original claim. How backwards is that?

How so? I strongly disagree with your statement that you don't lynch the original claimant if you have ANY doubts about the counter. That's kind of case by case, isn't it? There will be plenty of times when I'm not sure who to believe, but I believe one of them needs to get lynched.

[Axelrod]

Axelrod, I think everything through. Too far through, generally speaking. Your point that scum!Mirhawk has little to nothing to gain from reacting this way in this circumstance is valid, but that doesn't change the fact that he did act in a fashion which, contrary to your beliefs, really does not make any sense. If you have ANY doubt about a counterclaim, you don't lynch the fucking original claim. How backwards is that?

How so? I strongly disagree with your statement that you don't lynch the original claimant if you have ANY doubts about the counter. That's kind of case by case, isn't it? There will be plenty of times when I'm not sure who to believe, but I believe one of them needs to get lynched.

That means you have doubts about both. He didn't say that. He specifically had doubts about the counterclaim.

His post #378 is addressing basically this exactly.

[Axelrod]

Axel did you come back just to totally ignore my question?

I still have several questions to answer from back in the thread, but I'm talking about the most immediately relevant thing. Which question are you talking about, the one you

just

asked? (#927?)

[Axelrod]

I apologize for mis-gendering you.

Sakura it's possible there's a language or cultural thing going on there but the whole exchange with him was just weird. The way he jumped on whether or not my random vote was serious did not make any sense at all.

First of all I'm a she
Second of all

Spoiler: Quote Strip

yeah ok

Vote: Axelrod

serious vote.

Hi Sakura o/

yeah ok

Vote: Axelrod

serious vote.

Are you implying the Seniors wagon isn't serious?

Are you implying it is?

I was actually trying to imply the opposite.

You should sheep me btw.

Hi Sakura o/

yeah ok

Vote: Axelrod

serious vote.

Are you implying the Seniors wagon isn't serious?

Seniors is policy tho.

Seniors is policy tho.

Only scum wouldn't buddy up with me because I always hit scum when I wagon someone.
Seniors know this and should have accepted my hand in friendship but they don't want to be forced to bus.

Seniors is, indeed, worthy of a vote. But more right than Wrong?

Where in this sequence of posts am i supposed to take your statement as a joke?

Ok, so, first, most of the posts in that sequence you are quoting are not even mine, so I'm not sure what they have to do with how serious I was being. But second, the way I read those posts, at least at the time, was that the people making them - Beeboy, Dramonic - were also basically joking around about FS. The way Beeboy said "Are you implying the Seniors wagon isn't serious?" I did not, in fact, take seriously. It looking like him playing around to me. And Dramonic saying "Seniors is policy tho" is also, basically a joke. And even when Beeboy follows it up with his "meta" argument as to why FS not buddying up makes him scum, I am still not taking that as a serious vote, and wouldn't think most people would. Come on, "Only scum wouldn't buddy up with me because I always hit scum when I wagon someone," can't be anything but a joke. How are you not getting that?

I was also attempting to be humorous, because FS is a Hydra, and I was already voting a Hydra because of my futile quest to smite down evil Hydras. Hence my post where I remark that Seniors would be a good vote too (because Hydra), and I made a pun "more right then Wrong?" I would have thought the pun would have tipped you off even if you didn't get the rest of the context. This is all happening in still the RVS stages you know.

That's how you are supposed to "get" that I was joking around.

[Axelrod]

Kind of like Tammy for a lot of the same reasons, particularly early enthusiasm.

And now it looks like you're throwing around "early enthusiasm" as a blanket justification for town reads.

Tammy was completely absent early on

For early Town reads absolutely.

I don't mean "hey, hey go team!" enthusiasm, but being really invested in the game enthusiasm. Tammy's blitzing of the thread when she came in felt more like a Townie trying to figure stuff out than scum to me.

[Axelrod]

In separate news, I'm not seeing anything town from Dramonic. Is this normal for him?

Repeating question since I didn't see much response to it. I think Dramonic is scum flying under the radar, but I don't know if this is normal for him.
Scum reads with no apparent reasons, avoiding big wagons, not addressing the topics of the day -> classic active lurking scum mode, IMO.
VOTE: Dramonic

Please discuss.

In separate news, I'm not seeing anything town from Dramonic. Is this normal for him?

Repeating question since I didn't see much response to it. I think Dramonic is scum flying under the radar, but I don't know if this is normal for him.
Scum reads with no apparent reasons, avoiding big wagons, not addressing the topics of the day -> classic active lurking scum mode, IMO.
VOTE: Dramonic

Please discuss.

I would ask if there's a reason you seek so much approval, but I'm not a fan of rethorics.

Yeah, let's do this.

Unvote;

Vote: Dramonic

[Axelrod]

Like I tried to mislynch Dram for playing like this as scum so <.<

It that your only reason for liking him? Because he's played this way as Town before?

[Axelrod]

Because he always plays like this regardless of role p sure and its not a good reason to wagon him for.

What is a good reason to wagon him for then? How about he voted me without giving a reason, and has proceeded to call me scum for the entirety of the game while refusing repeated requests to explain what his issue is?

You're giving him blanket immunity for playing like a troll.

[Axelrod]

Anyone who does what he's doing deserves pressure. Is that a PL? I don't think so.

[Axelrod]

I think it's notable how Dram pops back up the instant he gets a few votes on him.

[Axelrod]

Yeah, let's do this.

Unvote;

Vote: Dramonic

I wonder why you waited until now. Is it because there wasn't a vote before and you didn't want to be the first?

It was more like, I went to bed, woke up, saw several votes for Dram, another underwhelming response from him, and decided that was a better use of my vote than where it currently was.

[Axelrod]

OK NEVER MIND
WHAT THE FUCK DUDE YOU EXPECT US TO JUST PUSH RANDOM VANITY WAGONS ARE YOU KIDDING OF COURSE I'M GOING TO SHEEP SOMEONE IF THEY'RE SCUMMY HOW DID NO ONE ELSE CATCH THIS

MAYBE YOU AND I DONT USE THE SAME TERMINOLOGY BUT TO SHEEP SOMEONE IS TO VOTE THE SAME AS ANOTHER PERSON WHO YOU THINK IS TOWN JUST BECAUSE YOU TRUST THEM NOT VOTING SOMEONE BECAUSE YOU ALREADY THINK THEY ARE SCUMMY.

And yeah if you actually wanted to evaluate your reads (as town would do) you wouldn't say "Hey, EP is better but that could be because EP is better as scum" you would say "Hey, how does hiplop play as scum? Is it usually like this?"

I'm noting a difference in the posting between the two "heads" where one was coming across scummier than the other and I'm acknowledging this right in the post because, gee, I'm actually open to re-evaluating my reads. I'm basically thinking out loud in that post. And I love you telling me what I would and wouldn't say.

I think it's notable how Dram pops back up the instant he gets a few votes on him.

oh my god
this can't be real

You don't think it's at all interesting that Dram just appears to ignore the game completely until someone actually votes for him, at which point he's suddenly present and posting all over? Doesn't that suggest a player who's actually been paying attention the whole time but choosing not to post or do anything remotely useful?

[Axelrod]

Welcome Ranger.

I really like this reads progression you are doing, but it would be even better with a little more commentary on what is making people shift around for you.

[Axelrod]

Beeboy if you got to decide all by yourself right now, who would you lynch?

And if you were unable to pick that person, who next?

[Axelrod]

Cute, but seriously, who would be your next choice after Seniors?

I'm asking because you

are

jumping around a lot.

[Axelrod]

That's partially why. His recent Dram push sucks too.

What is awful about his dram push?

I think it is pretty plausible for anyone unfamiliar with dram to be scum reading him.

That could explain the initial push. But I explained how Dram always plays like this and he's still pushing it.

I mean, are you agreeing that (without considering this person's specific "meta") that the way he's playing is scummy? That's the first question.

If you don't think it is, then, we're just not even in the same ballpark in terms of how to play this game.

If you agree that it's scummy, but just not for

him

, because

he

always plays like this, my question to you is, what do you do about it? Because it sounds like you're just giving him a pass (because you think he's impossible to read?)

Whereas I think, if he gets voted, and he doesn't want to get lynched, it's going to make him play better and either show he's actually town, or, not.

[Axelrod]

Okay, (1) I haven't said "Seniors is scum" and don't expect to say that anytime soon with any degree of certainty. This is just an early vote for me.

I didn't like the way you sidled up to the Seniors vote and then came in with a big definitive assessment of what made them scum in 298. It seemed overjustified considering you'd already been saying that Seniors were worth a vote. And while I acknowledge that could have come from some suspicion of beeboy and then a reverting of heart from you, I find it rare that town articulates their conviction behind a vote, by way of a long and strong post in that manner.

Oh good God, how many times do I have to say this?

When I said that Seniors was "worthy" of a vote I was NOT BEING SERIOUS. I WAS JOKING. At that point in the game, I had zero opinion of Seniors. Or, my opinion was that he hadn't yet done anything. Certainly not enough to justify how much BeeBoy seemed to be pushing him.

And then, it was that series of posts, in succession, that made it worth a vote to me. So I quoted the whole thing. I don't get how you think this is an "overjustification" or too "long and strong." That was actually a pretty short and to the point summary of why I was voting, for me.

And since then, I haven't seen any reason to move the vote. He's complained that Beeboy's tunneling him, but not done anything to change his mind either. He got all sulky and said Beeboy sucked the "fun" out of the game for him, which I could easily see happening to a scum who's getting caught for what they think are garbage reasons.

This is untrue. You moved your vote immediately to pistachion when Ami counterclaimed Miller.

Well, yes, that's correct. I moved the vote when the Miller thing came up, and when that got cleared up I went back to where I was before. Maybe I should have said that

Seniors

hadn't given me any reason to move the vote.

I notice you're now voting dramonic along with davesaz.
Weren't you suspicious of davesaz almost the entire game up till now, liking Mirhawk's push on him and disliking davesaz' push on Mirhawk?

What has happened here with your reads?

I am still suspicious of Davesaz. He's far from "clear." But I liked his vote on Dramonic. That was something.

[Axelrod]

So, re: podo. #1178 is the most righteous thing anyone has posted this entire game, and I guess I'm pretty much never voting for him. So I hope he's Town or we're just going to lose.

[Axelrod]

MAYBE YOU AND I DONT USE THE SAME TERMINOLOGY BUT TO SHEEP SOMEONE IS TO VOTE THE SAME AS ANOTHER PERSON WHO YOU THINK IS TOWN JUST BECAUSE YOU TRUST THEM NOT VOTING SOMEONE BECAUSE YOU ALREADY THINK THEY ARE SCUMMY.

Did you not read my post where I talked about the terrible things Skybird did?

I read your post. You did not talk about "all the terrible things Skybird did." I mean, you quoted one post of Skybird. And that post wasn't anything even game related. If was a self-observation where Skybird said he plays the way he plays and some people think it's scummy but he doesn't care. It certainly seemed to me your desire to "sheep" Amihan was the driving factor behind that vote.

Me "telling you what you would and wouldn't say" is me noting that you're exhibiting unreasonable behavior as town if you actually wanted to act in a protown way.

What unreasonable behavior are we talking about? The fact that, as I'm noting the difference in style between your two heads, I didn't also ask the Town at large, "Hey, how does Hiplop play as scum?" That unreasonableness?

Because, that's not unreasonable.

Secondly, no, nothing in your original post suggested you were "re-evaluating your reads" because you were finding ways to paint us as scum.
Exhibit A: "See there's this perfectly reasonable explanation for why EP looks better but I'm going to ignore that explanation in favor of the explanation that paints us as scum"
Exhibit B: "I'm also going to ignore the part where EP said Skybird was scum in favor of painting that vote like a sheep vote"

Okay, Exhibit A: I wasn't "painting" anyone anything. I was pointing out the dichotomy I was noticing between your two heads. And the fact that the one head sounded better than the other didn't mean that I was just going to ignore the totality of the posts, including the ones I had an issue with specifically. Are you really saying I should just write off 1/2 (it was more than 1/2 at the time) of your posts?

Exhibit B: You SAID it was a Sheep vote. Actually, if I'm being fair, looking back what you said was that you "might" want to sheep there (because you thought Ami was Town). Followed immediately in your next post with the vote. You quoted that one post of Skybird's, which, again, didn't look like much of a basis to be jumping on him, and it looked to me like your desire to "sheep" was the main reason. Why did you even use that terminology if it wasn't really?

THAT BEING SAID: there is something tone-wise about Skybird that makes me think that she might be town which makes the axel vote even better

So, what "tone-wise" is making you reconsider? And how would Skybird being Town make your vote for me better? (Because you wouldn't be voting for a Townie? q.e.d?)

[Axelrod]

So, re: podo. #1178 is the most righteous thing anyone has posted this entire game, and I guess I'm pretty much never voting for him. So I hope he's Town or we're just going to lose.

What did you find righteous about it?

So, re: podo. #1178 is the most righteous thing anyone has posted this entire game, and I guess I'm pretty much never voting for him. So I hope he's Town or we're just going to lose.

I'd also like to know how your opinion on podo influences the game's outcome to the point that "we're just going to lose" if he's scum since your opinion is that he's town.

He's stating how I feel about the way Dramonic is playing in a manner that (a) I could never do because I'm too polite, even though I think it, and (b) with a sincerity that is almost impossible for scum to fake. It made me want to cheer. After all the people who are apparently just willing to give him a pass.

The other thing is just something I sometimes say. It's mostly a joke (obviously whether I think he's Town doesn't influence anyone else), but he's coming across so strongly as Town right now, that I don't see him ever being lynched. So, if he's never lynched - but he's actually scum - and therefore not getting night-killed - Town loses.

[Axelrod]

When I said that Seniors was "worthy" of a vote I was NOT BEING SERIOUS. I WAS JOKING. At that point in the game, I had zero opinion of Seniors. Or, my opinion was that he hadn't yet done anything. Certainly not enough to justify how much BeeBoy seemed to be pushing him.

In your 46, sure. I'm not referring to that comment or any pun-related posts (and I haven't asked anything about this before so I'm not sure why you're getting frustrated about it).

It feels like you're at least the 4th or 5th person (maybe more?) who has looked at that post and treated it as something serious. That's the frustration. I mean, you're even saying you're not referring to that comment, but you did?

I'm talking mainly about your sidling up to the Seniors wagon and then finding reasons to call them scummy in the same post you voted. I think you already had in mind what you were going to do with regard to that vote well before you typed it.

Particularly this part of your 152:

Wrong Lynch is fine

Unvote

. Pied Piper is also fine. Friendless Seniors hasn't done anything.

@Beeboy: when you say you know how Friendless Seniors would react to you, are you talking about one of the hydra heads in particular? Or is this a Hydra that you have played with before? I don't get your conviction given that Seniors hasn't done much of anything.

You think this was me building up to a vote against Seniors? That whole sequence was my trying to get a better handle on Beeboy, not Seniors.

Then you also agree that Seniors is worth voting, and comment that beeboy seems genuine in your 288. It seems like you're looking very very hard for reasoning to lay a vote on Seniors. The vote comes in your next post 45 minutes later (along with your justifications which seem more irritated than anything else).

Ok, the sequence is: Beeboy votes Seniors. At first this looks mostly like a joke vote. Later Beeboy says he's 90% certain Seniors is scum. I question him on his certainly - because to me, it looks like Senior hasn't done much of anything. Pied Piper comes in and says "Isn't not doing much of anything a perfectly fine reason to vote?"

All that is before the posts of FS that I didn't like. There were like 130 posts between the morning and the afternoon. When I next was on I saw Pied Piper's question and responded to that. That's when I agreed that not doing much of anything could be a fine basis for a vote, but that didn't seem to be what Beeboy was saying. Which is why I was questioning him on his conviction. How do you get that I seemed like I was "looking hard" for reasons to vote Seniors? I barely even mentioned FS in that post because I still wasn't thinking about him.

It was only after that that I decided to take a closer look him, and pulled out the series of posts we're talking about. That's what happened in the 45 minuted between those posts. There was no "sidling up" to the Seniors wagon. I really hadn't paid him much attention at all until the post where I voted.

To wit:

Characterizing the

single

vote (also the single post) of SnarkytheSnowman during the very early stages as a "push" that felt "weird," in order to justify his own vote. That makes zero actual sense.

This is really stretching. Vote / Push - what's the difference and why does it matter?

Did you look at Snarky's vote? It was literally a first post RVS vote with nothing else. i.e. the kind of vote that starts virtually every game ever. What could Seniors have possibly felt was "weird" about that vote? It didn't make any sense. It looked like a very poor attempt to rationalize his own vote. That's why it matters. I think Seniors characterizing it as a "push" is also odd, and wrong, but that doesn't even matter as much.

You're going to get mad? If people keep pushing on you? Welcome to Mafia, I guess. Also, you might think that if someone you really thought was Town was pushing on you, you would be trying to, I don't know, convince them of the innocent error of their ways. As opposed to threatening them. Like that's going to be productive.

This is more irritated than a reason to scumread Seniors. Do you think a threat directed at beeboy who has already made it obvious he's familiar with Seniors, is going to make him back off? Nah.

It was just an off response. Like, that's just not a normal way to react to someone voting for you. I've been playing a very long time, and off the top of my head, I can't ever recall a player threatening someone else that they were going "to get mad" if the first player didn't quit pushing. That also didn't make sense.

The way he says he "dislikes" being discussed so much. It's like, you know who doesn't like being discussed? And defending on the basis that they hadn't done anything?

OOH OHH I know it's scum who doesn't like being discussed right?
Except it's not, in general. I can give you one star out of ten if you were thinking that maybe hiplop was hiding behind EP and felt the need to come in to post to appear that both heads were active, and then didn't really want to talk, but that's not what you're saying (and is a derivation of a derivation of a stretch anyway). Being discussed as scum opens up a whole bag of opportunities for townies to be wrong, for buddies to defend or bus, to be that rational scum. I have a lot of trouble swallowing that you believe what you're asserting here, and funnily I doubt that Seniors is going to come in as scum and say "hey guys we're off-limits fuck you oh and I'm town".

Ok I was being snarky here. I admit it. But you turning this into a theory argument about whether scum

really

want to be discussed or not is kind of strange. That's so not the point.

I still think FS's response seemed strange here. Defending himself on the basis of having done nothing.

And finally the "look over there" vote. The rationale here is just bad. Seems to think you can't be suspicious of a player and also other people that player says are suspicious at the same time. Which you can, and it wouldn't be fencesitting even if you couldn't, it would be...something else. Inconsistent mindset maybe. And stirring the pot is not scummy in the first instance. Basically none of this makes any sense from a Town mindset. He's just lashing out.

I think Cakez' reads at the time were highly dubious given what had happened up till then:

ATM scum reads of varying degrees on Tictac, Seniors, Ogre, and Beeboy.

I'm talking about FS's own rationalizations for this vote. FS said that Cakes was "Fencesitting", "stirring the pot," and "trying to get momentum on our (FS's) wagon for shoddy reasons. None of that was accurate. He also tried to make it a point that Cakes said he was suspicious of Beeboy as well as the people Beeboy was pushing, like that was scummy. Which, it really wasn't.

And it was the combination of all those posts in rapid sequence that got my vote.

[Axelrod]

Ugh I feel like I have too many townreads and someone is dogging me

Another being I hated Axel's reads when he did give them.

What did you hate about them?

[Axelrod]

Or don't vig me tonight, that would be nice. I take a while to get into large games, and I'm not quite feeling this one yet.

How long is "a while," Snarky?

[Axelrod]

And I'm basically caught up again.

[Axelrod]

What did you hate about them?

904 felt all kinds of wrong. In particular, Mirhawk being among the likes felt out of place. Your middle-tier also felt out of whack. Pistachi0n felt too low, for instance, and you didn't explain {Pied Piper, TrueOgre}. Pied Piper felt too low especially without explanation, and TrueOgre too high for that same reason. Between {True Ogre, tictac}, you also get players who look like they're the scumbuddies-in-an-otherwise-town-list, similar to Mirhawk above.

You also had five scumreads (Friendless Seniors in this case looks like the scum-in-otherwise-town list), and two almost-scumreads (Spiffeh, Skybird).

It was just a very ewww-inducing post.

So, what your saying is you disagreed with the actual reads? Or at least some of them. And you're bothered that I didn't give explanations for why everyone was where they were? I mean, that's a little ironic, isn't it?

I don't think we were even that far off from each other, with a few notable exceptions.

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq, Sakura Hana}
{SnarkySnowman}
{davesaz, Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, dramonic}
{Axelrod}
{True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

As far as your top two lines, I had half of them as being at least Townish, and the others were no worse than neutral (some of this has changed since then)

You having SnarkytheSnowman next makes no sense to me, that's true. But you have to agree he's been, at best, a complete non-entity.

You say I had Spiffeh as an "almost" scum read, but that's not true. I had Spiffeh as someone I just couldn't get a good read on at all. We disagree on Davesaz, but it's like top third vs. bottom third kind of disagreement.

We disagree on Dramonic, which I assume is you doing what everyone else is doing and giving him a pass because he always plays like this?

I mean, I think the huge disagreement is just Mirhawk, which is a definitely large disagreement in as much as he seems to be your top choice, but that's mainly it? And I'm noting Beeboy has the same disagreement but you've still got him as one of your top Towns.

Why such hate?

[Axelrod]

I will go back to Friendless Seniors to get a lynch before deadline if that becomes an issue.

[Axelrod]

Sry guys, I've been Magic pre-releasing all weekend and watching the final four. I'm catching up.

[Axelrod]

I like Tammy's posting a lot, when Tammy is here.

[Axelrod]

The last two games I played with Ranger she was scum and did reads similarly, but from what people who were defending her in machina said, this is pretty much what she does as far as reads starting from rvs.

I can give the story behind this if it'd interest you. Short version: how I was raised playing off-site; we refer back to the RVS (which is most of D1) constantly. I wouldn't normally give analysis until D4 or so, but I still compile reads with reasons in my head.

I meant that you deliberately left Skybird out of the lynch pool to try and make people think he wasn't a viable lynch.

Well, she

isn't

a viable lynch.

I won't be able to make a kind of determination of her reads list until we get a flip or two.

This is a fair method of reading me.

VOTE: Friendless Seniors.
I know, Mirhawk wagon was bigger, but the two wagons are now tied, so it's close enough.

So, this vote kind of bugs me, even though I am agreeing with the result. Like, if these two are equally scummy in your eyes (these are your bottom tier guys), and one wagon is bigger than the other, why would you push the smaller one and make them tied?

[Axelrod]

Snarky literally chimes in the post directly after someone asks him to be vigged

He is clearly paying attention to this game but is refusing to post

Yes he has a reputation for being lynchbait but in my experience he has not been THIS useless Day 1

He needs to be vigged tonight

Him or Dramonic I would be in complete agreement with.

Speaking of which,

Unvote

since that's not doing anything.

[Axelrod]

I think tictac might be scum

Well, most likely, yes.

But being realistic. Do you think a wagon there could work?

I don't. Not today, especially not this close to deadline.

If you want scum lynched, {Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk} is really the only pool you've got.

Uhh. Again, really not a fan of the way you are narrowing these choices.

[Axelrod]

@Podo
Cakes is scum because he isn't looking for scum, rather he's coasting and has been doing so for most of the game.

In the last game I played with him (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65594) he actively scumhunted constantly, in this one he vote parked on me over a thousand posts ago and hasn't done much of anything since.

How much time does he spend pushing the scumread he's had all game? Almost none. He doesn't analyze any of my posts and the extent of him pushing my wagon consists of him occasionally reminding people that he thinks I'm scum.

My issue with Cakes is that it seems like the only thing he's doing is "meta" reads of people.

[Axelrod]

Axelrod- I've already posted about Axelrod

-EP

POORLY

[Axelrod]

It's after midnight and I'm going to bed.

I'm going to place an informed vote on someone tomorrow.

[Axelrod]

Ranger wagon is def a scum counterwagon to Seniors/Mirhawk. Like Seniors is just following Spiffeh's vote, it's pretty sad.
Axel - the only thing I'm doing are meta reads? The fuck

Well, looking back, you weren't doing it so much at the beginning of the game (which is when I was liking your posts). There were just a couple minor ones (#131, #149, #399) which didn't bother me at all. But seemed like starting around Dramonic, you started making reads on a lot of people based on their "metas." Dramonic (#733, #884, #1023, #1026, #1028), Sakura Hana (#1109), Swordsworth (#1112, #1328), Snarky (#1328, 1550), Ranger (#1364, #1412), and the last (little) one was Cerebrus (#1502).

That's what I'm talking about.

It's one thing to feel like you know how someone plays, but it's just lazy to write off someone's scummy behavior because they "always play like this", or to just assert that X play is their "Town" play. And it seems like your been doing that more as we've been going deeper, which is backwards from what it should be.

[Axelrod]

You also made a point about scum-replace-outs in #1211, which is kind of meta, and I think you were using it to argue that Swords' replace-out was more likely from scum (also because of his meta).

[Axelrod]

@Rob: I am not voting anyone atm.

Last second scrambles suck so much. I am still going to figure out who to vote.

But right now I am going to watch the NCAA championship, after which I will either be (a) celebrating or (b) too depressed to do anything else.

[Axelrod]

Life is meaningless and full of pain.

I have no interest in voting Mirhawk. Between FS and Ranger, I am not a huge fan of either, but I like Ranger a little better.

Vote: Friendless Seniors

I could still be persuaded to change this. I'll be back before deadline. I also think FS should go ahead and claim.

[Axelrod]

Yeah, that's making me feel a lot better about the vote.

[Axelrod]

So everyone know's where I'm coming from. I'm a Carolina grad., and I live in Chapel Hill, and last night was the most brutalist of gut punches. The last thing I feel like doing is posting in a Mafia game. But, I actually take my game commitments seriously (unlike a lot of the people in this game), so here I am.

Axel you are scum

But, tell me how you really feel.

Axel, on your homesite, is it customary to claim at L-3?

There's no customary. I know a lot of people say that L-2 is the "appropriate" time for someone to claim, but that's kind of an unwritten tradition. The reality is we're right at the deadline and FS is closest. It's stupid to wait. And personally, I'd rather have a claim as soon as possible, so there could still be time to course correct.

I also have reasonable faith in my own ability to suss out bogus claims.

So, why is Ranger scum?

Now, see, this is just ridiculous.

Ploti hydra is prob town~

I'm liking both nacho and ploti so <3.

Also ploti I know that Tammy is busy, but it wasn't her absent that I was calling out, but the baseless read by ranger on a few posts that didn't even feel like alignment indicative.

Also Tammy we got off on the wrong foot, can we shake paws and start this over again. I'm sorry for getting defensive and I'll try to control it.

-M

Ditto.

It's like they are acting completely oblivious to the situation we are in. Tell me my vote sucks, but at least I'm taking a position.

Like their play as it gets down to the wire here is really not ok

Yes.

But, assuming you're really asking "Why do you think Seniors is the best vote right now (beyond what you already said in the post where you voted for him)." I don't know what else to say. His first vote was essentially an OMGUS vote on a lurker. He then made one decent post (#190), and went right into the series of post for which I voted him. (#252 and sequence). Those posts were all just bad.

I think that it would help me considerably if you dove into why these posts were bad; as it stands, what you've posted so far was just directing me to posts you dislike which doesn't really do much for me (I can't really tell if you'd like a post or not but I can figure out whether I think you're likely to believe something for the reasons you've given).

I will just put everything I don't like about FS in my next post.

[Axelrod]

hello, this is EP.
something very emotionally difficult has happened to me and I hope you understand that I don't think i'll be able to really spend time on mafia for the time being.
thank you for being understanding, especially to hiplop.
I will be more than willing to do an awesome catchup when I get back.

Okay, I am seeing this as I am typing up my other thing, and I just want to say I'm really sorry to hear you are having a difficult time. Mafia games are super low priority to real life. You do what you have to do.

[Axelrod]

I'm going to go make my post a little less snarky now. This is like a good life lesson. No reason to be mean to other people. It's just a game, and in theory we're all here to have fun.

[Axelrod]

I'll preface this by saying that I am far from certain FS is scum. But I think there's a reasonable chance he is, and given where we are, I'm okay with that.

I already posted about why I voted him initially. He made a series of sketchy posts early which was good enough for me. And the fact is that he hasn't really done anything since then to change that initial unfavorable impression - which is saying something given how many posts he has. Usually I can find

something

more to like about someone who's Townie, even if I'm not always agreeing with all of it. And I can still sort of see where they're coming from. They might make some reasonable points. Or they might show some kind of logical thought process. FS is just really random and hostile. Incidentally, as best I can tell, FS has still never responded to some of those points. He's still never explained his vote for SnarkytheSnowman (which was another "vote the person who voted for you" vote) and what he meant when he said that Snarky's "push" felt weird. He has ignored multiple requests for him to elaborate on that.

His first what I'll call a real vote/case was for Sir Cakes - after Cakes voted for him - and the reasoning for it was nonsensical. He accused Sir Cakes of "basically scumreading anyone making any sort of impact in the game." He called it "a super opportunistic position in the game and needs to be lynched." (#264). What does that even mean? How was Cakes being "opportunistic?" And exactly what would be the reasoning for a scum Cakes to be doing it in the first place then? It wasn't any kind of logical position. It just sounded like him throwing something out there to seem like he was doing something, but what he was really doing was attacking a person who voted for him. This will be kind of a theme.

He then proceeds to do the other theme which is get super sulky and bitter about people voting for him.

He then made a push on podoboq. Podoboq is probably like my most Town read in the whole game. This came, surprise, after podoboq voted for him. I've tried to read his reasoning for his attack on podoboq multiple times, but it still doesn't make any sense. If I squint real hard, it

seems

like FS was arguing that podo was both questioning Beeboy early while at the same time voting for the wagon Beeboy was pushing. And that podo was foloowing along with the popular stances (which he also said wasn't actually scummy.) And then maybe not liking podo's "tone?" This wasn't any kind of good vote though.

Next vote was the Skybird "sheep" vote that I also talked about already and which FS has attacked me for for daring to call it a sheep vote (despite his own use of the term) when he gave all these reasons why Skybird was scum (which he actually didn't and you can look it up). I've already knocked that one down and (not irrelevantly) this is another point that FS has never responded to.

After that he started attacking me (also after I voted for him). You can imagine how this would not improve his Towniness in my eyes. As indicated above, he mis-characterized my argument, and then somehow tried to twist my admission that I thought one head sounded better than the other, into some kind of accusation where - if I was

really

Town - I would have done more questioning of the Town at large to find out if this was their "meta" or not. He decides to back Dramonic, of all people. We had a two post back-and-forth which FS never continued. He completely disengaged though still calling me scum.

He then rather abruptly voted Ranger (who was "Town" as of #1256, "Meh" in #1465, and "scum" by #1474). Reasoning was absent (although it again appears to be a read based completely off of Ranger criticizing FS).

He then jumped the Sir Cakes wagon when that looked like it might possibly go somewhere. This, at least was someone he had voted for before, but, to me, is the definition of an opportunistic vote.

Then did virtually the same thing with the TicTac vote.

Has declared I am now "100% scum" for daring to go back to voting for him at the deadline - and even, gasp, "rolefishing" by

asking

him to go ahead and claim. Which is not rolefishing, but whatever.

These are a few of the things I do not like about FS.

[Axelrod]

This is exactly what I was afraid was going to happen.

[Axelrod]

I want to be mad at FS, but I know one of the heads is having personal issues. I don't know what the other one is doing though.

[Axelrod]

Which part of the situation is what you were afraid was going to happen?

That we were going to go right down to the last second without any kind of claim, leaving essentially zero time to change direction if the claim (if it comes at all) turns out to be something we don't want to lynch.

[Axelrod]

I'm here.

[Axelrod]

Jesus, three hundred posts since this afternoon?

[Axelrod]

The quick summary is Seniors claimed fruit vendor and Rangers L-1.

Wow, I've been playing this game for more than 10 years, and I've never even

heard

of this role before.

[Axelrod]

I'm super busy right now, but I intend to put some time into this game this afternoon and tomorrow.

Also, I totally informed Rob. I was going to be away so I don't know why I'm even being prodded.

[Axelrod]

Spiffeh's final non-Ranger pushes were on Tictac, Axel and TWL. Very confident in scum there.
Snarky was obv a vig shot, sucks that he was town but he's gone at least, and he was Hated too.

Here's my first "red flag" of the morning. Trying to guess the scum reasons for why they kill who they kill is almost pointless, and it seems to me more often than not, it's the scum themselves who suggest it, to try and muddy the waters. And here in particular, pushing to lynch someone based (at least in part) off of it (or even chain a series of lynches) is especially bad.

I got wigged last night. So there's seniors action.

I'm down with Pistachion and TWL.

I admittedly haven't spent a great deal of attention on Axel or Tictac.

Curious, did you put that wig on your avatar yourself, or did the mod. actually provide you with that?

Who the fuck shoots spiffeh?

TWL?

This is a little similar to Cakes post, but not as bad.

I mean in comparison to Tarot this isn't that elaborate. Very standard roles flipped here so far.

Second "red flag?" How can you say that the roles in this game are not as "elaborate" as the ones in (other game?) We've seen exactly three roles flipped, and one more demonstrated.

Plus I don't like how you're trying to argue that this lack of "elaborateness" means that Seniors can't be scum with a role like 'Fruit/Wig Vendor." This is gaming the mod. and essentially more "meta" argument from you.

Please provide a short dissertation on your theory there.

Her votes have been opportunistic but more importantly she's done a lot of the "lol I'm so bad at this game" and it doesn't sit well with me.

Okay thanks.

Can you please specify your Miller role. I have a result on you which says you're not a miller.

Prepared to vote pistachion based just on this.

oh hey, there's one scum and one moron voting me.
That's annoying.

So, seriously, why are you even playing this game? Considering you are (1) bad at it, (2) rude, and (3) don't even seem to be enjoying it. I'm, trying not to be snarky here, but it's hard.

Hey folks, we need more dramonic votes.

Opinion of Davesaz improving.

Dave, talk to me about why we need more dram votes please.

Opinion of Skybird plummeting.

I am also not a fan of TicTac so far.

The next thing I'm going to do is a full wagon analysis of Ranger yesterday. Which is looking at all the votes for Ranger, who made them, when, and for what reasons, to try and identify which ones are the most likely to have come from scum.

[Axelrod]

All right

*cracks knuckles*

Let's see what there is to see.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

First Vote

: davesaz @ #1419: I don't have any real issues with this vote. He's comparing Ranger's entrance into this game with a game where Ranger was scum and finding similarities. And, while that's not great as a reason to vote, it's not horrendous, certainly not as an early vote. He's not declaring Ranger scum because of it. And he's also doing a bit more than just the meta thing, disagreeing with Ranger's reads and pointing out that Ranger's top scum suspects just happened to align with the people the Town was already looking at. So, there's nothing particularly suspicious about this vote.

What's a little less great is how dave kind of cruises into the end of day sitting on this vote. There was a real frenzy towards the end of the day, and dave kind of stayed above the fray. The big counter-wagon, FS, he barely comments on. There's a very random remark about being willing to vote TicTac after having barely commented on him as well.

I also don't love his opening post of this day where he says:

Hmm, I was wrong on Ranger, right on Tammy, can use Spiffeh's flip to improve my ability to read him.

Mainly because dave never gave a real opinion on Tammy. His last mention of Tammy the day before was #1427 where he said his read was "stale" but the last he "remembered" it was Town. And going back before that there's not much of anything. And the fact that Ranger was reading Tammy as Town too quickly seemed to be one of dave's big points against him. So that's at least somewhat inconsistent.

All that said, there's no smoking guns here.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Second Vote

: Amihan @ #1649. This post just says that if Skybird isn't happening then Ranger is "the way to go." So we have to look back to see what Amihan was saying before this. Ranger replaced in @ #1174. Ranger replaced Swordsworth. Pretty sure Ami said nothing about Swordsworth (not that there was much to say).

Ami's first comment about Ranger was when she alt-slipped in #1348. Says she is "scumreading the hell out of Ranger's entrance and progression." So that's all consistent. Indicates willingness to vote Ranger as early as #1354. Doesn't say

why

she's scum-reading Ranger, which is a bit unfortunate. Then, in #1355 basically says she's barning Mirhawk's reasons for not liking Ranger's entrance. That would be post #1341. Where Mirhawk complains that Ranger is laying out too many too solid reads with little to no justification, and that it seemed convenient that Ranger's scum reads happened to be on the two biggest wagons of the day. Ami also adds that Ranger's catch-up felt "artificial."

I don't have any real issues with this vote either. After the vote, Ami's also very consistent, pushing for the Ranger lynch. She doesn't really comment at all on FS, which is maybe a little troublesome. In #2017 she wonders why people are going back to a "dumb, default" lynch, but I've never seen her express an opinion one way of the other about what she actually thinks of FS, which is a little unusual given how much FS has been discussed. That's my only flag on Ami so far. Otherwise she's been pretty consistent on Skybird.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Third Vote:

Mirhawk @ #1748. This is another case of the vote coming well after Mirhawk's issues with Ranger had already been laid out. As noted above, Mirhawk expressed dislike for Ranger as early as #1341. He was voting Skybird then, and stayed on Skybird at the time. I believe Mirhawk was also responding to Ranger's statement that the only two viable wagons were Mirhawk's and FS (which was clearly wrong). Mirhawk actually changed his vote to SirCakes prior to voting Ranger (during a time when there was maybe a tiny bit of momentum towards a Cakes wagon), but that didn't last very long, and I think the Cakes suspicion was/is justified anyway.

I've been mostly a Mirhawk fan this game and this isn't changing my opinion.

Fourth Vote

: Spiffeh @ #1830. Spiffeh was Town.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Fifth Vote

: Sakura Hana @ #1872. All right, HERE's one worth looking harder at. Sakura Hana is shamelessly waggoning here. Zero justification. Even makes it sound like she's not paying any attention at all to the game "I've been playing Tree of Savior." If you look back, #1854, and #1857, Sakura is saying she doesn't even know why people are voting for Ranger. Back in #1338, Sakura said she thought Ranger was TOWN. So, what changed? There is

no

explanation beyond, people are telling her to vote for Ranger so she's just going to do it....This one could

easily

be a scum vote.

Caveat

: The only problem with this, and with basically every vote after this, is the reality that we were facing an impending deadline. And Spiffeh (among others?) was pushing people

very

hard to vote for Ranger. That is going to muddy the situation for all these later votes.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Sixth Vote:

beeboy @ #1955. No reason given here, beeboy is basically cow-towing to Spiffeh's will, it appears. Though if you look back, beeboy did vote Ranger earlier in #1640, and had Ranger listed under "Must be Scum" in #1450, so the vote is still very consistent. Beeboy was essentially flip-flopping between FS and Ranger at the end of the day. I've generally liked beeboy this game, even though he's been a bit flighty. And I don't think there's anything suspicious about this vote given where we were at the time.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Seventh Vote:

Friendless Seniors @ #2102. It's not a secret that I have not been a FS fan this game, but this vote also isn't doing anything to change my opinion. FS was all over the place at the end of the day yesterday, basically in "anyone but him" mode. I"m pretty sure he was voting me up until #1704, when he switched to Ranger (for the first time?) That would have been the third vote at the time, I think, after davesaz and Amihan. After that, he would go back and forth between Ranger and TicTac, while also expressing the opinion that LOTS of other people were also scum. SirCakez, me (again), Cerberus, also mentioned Tammy, davesaz, "potentially" Pied Piper. And as I have noted before, basically anyone who said they were suspicious of him.

He also tried to misrepresent the argument against him when he stated "do you think I'd fakeclaim fruit vendor?" and "fruit vendor is a shitty role to fakeclaim because of paranoia," when I don't think anyone was suggesting that the role wasn't "real", only that it could easily be a scum role.

Friendless Seniors could definitely still be scum.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Eighth Vote

: podoboq @ #2123. This one is another "deadline" decision. I think podo was voting for FS prior to this, and had even expressed the opinion that Ranger looked Town, but it appears FS's spamming up the thread in the very final hours of the day caused him enough doubt to get podo to come off him, and switch to the wagon with more traction. He still says he's willing to switch back if need be, and emphasizes that what he really doesn't want is a No Lynch. None of that is terrible, and I can definitely see it coming from a Town mindset. Most of podo's stuff is just very reasoned and reasonable.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Ninth Vote

: SirCakez @ #2161. Egh. One day earlier, SirCakez made This post on "Why I think Ranger is Town." I believe Cakez was voting Mirhawk for a long time - then made cases against Seniors and Mirhawk in posts #1769, #1774, but actually switched to voting TicTac in #1784.

I don't like how, when the choice appeared to be between Mirhawk and FS, he picked Mirhawk (while still agreeing that FS looked bad). But when it looked like it was between FS and Ranger, he's defending Ranger and voting TicTac. Then, TicTac being a non-starter, goes back to Mirhawk. Finally jumps the Ranger wagon at the end, all the while never having voted for FS. I don't see any indication from Cakez posting that he thought FS ever looked Town, but it does look like he was giving the Fruit Vendor thing a lot of weight? Kept saying he couldn't remember a game (or only knew one game) with a scum Fruit Vendor in it. He asked people if they know of other games, like he was keeping that possibility open, but when (I think PP) pulled out a large list of games, Cakez had essentially no comment.

Also don't like how he was already lining up today's lynches in anticipation that Ranger was going to flip Town yesterday. And opened today with his "This is who Spiffeh didn't like so clearly we should lynch one of these people...." post.

So, yeah.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Tenth Vote:

TWL @ #2310. "Just cuz I need to go." Not the greatest, but we were just hours from the deadline, and some people were freaking out, I think. Looking back, TWL had her vote parked on Mirhawk for essentially the entirety of D1. From all the way back in #396, based on his reaction to the "fake" miller counterclaim. Didn't even seem like that strong of a vote at the time, but it was never unvoted or moved. Frankly, there's not a lot going on with TWL this whole game. Not much scum-hunting at all, no strong reads, a lot of work/life excuses (which could be true, but it certainly doesn't help).

It's definitely possible scum slot.

Eleventh

vote was Snarky, who was Town.

And I'm done, and going to take a break. The worst votes here are Sakura, FS, Cakez, and TWL.

[Axelrod]

Axel - what's your huge objection to NKA? It definitely has uses.

My objection is that it doesn't work. At least, not the kind of NKA that goes "scum killed X, so, therefore, the scum are probably the people who X did not like..." While sometimes that ends up partly being true (and, I mean, in that group of three people you threw out there, I actually agree that TicTac and TWL

could

be scum), what I've found more often than not is that the scum killing who they kill ends up having nothing to do with anything you would think about. There are all sorts of possible reasons, up to, and including, literally flipping a coin, that I have seen. And then the scum love to have Town running in circles trying to guess why they did what they did. It's just not a productive line of inquiry.

[Axelrod]

I was wondering when i was going to be engaged but...

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Fifth Vote

: Sakura Hana @ #1872. All right, HERE's one worth looking harder at. Sakura Hana is shamelessly waggoning here. Zero justification. Even makes it sound like she's not paying any attention at all to the game "I've been playing Tree of Savior." If you look back, #1854, and #1857, Sakura is saying she doesn't even know why people are voting for Ranger. Back in #1338, Sakura said she thought Ranger was TOWN. So, what changed? There is

no

explanation beyond, people are telling her to vote for Ranger so she's just going to do it....This one could

easily

be a scum vote.

Why is it scummy of me to switch my vote to Ranger after reading Spiffeh's "not very long case" on his ISO? Why do you think i can't change a read of mine from a null town to scum? And more importantly, why do you have an issue with my vote NOW as opposed to earlier in the day?

Dude, at what point did you read Spiffeh's "not very long case?" You certainly never mentioned that. And at what point did you change your read from "null town to scum?" You didn't mention that either. For all the world it appeared that you just voted Ranger because people told you to vote Ranger, and you didn't even know why they were telling you to. You dispute that? Your vote in no way indicated a "change of read." I kind of assumed you were going to say "deadline", but you're saying that actually wasn't it?

I'm bringing it up

now

because I'm just looking at these votes closely now.

[Axelrod]

Like seriously, this is the second time you mis represent my actions based on events that are going on which should speak for themselves.

They really don't "speak for themselves." And here's my thing - completely aside from whether you're being sincere or not - at the very least, you ought to be able to see why your posts, made the way you made them, look questionable, but you don't seem to be able to acknowledge this. You're acting like I'm the one who's crazy for even questioning you about them.

That's not analysis, that's idiocy.

It's almost like you're agreeing with me, but you don't even realize it.

I don't necessarily disagree, and I DO think Axel is scum. PArt of me is questioning that with his latest post though.

How sure are you, dram?

Why are you even asking Dramonic anything? He's completely ignored every attempt to engage him this game.

But I'm interested in talking to you. You keep saying you think I'm scum (or could be scum) but you really don't even attempt to argue it. There was, as best I recall, one single time one of your heads raised a question, which I answered, and you never returned to it. On the other hand, I've made a bunch of posts about you, including one nice big fat one here, laying it all out, and you have routinely ignored them. I mean, modesty aside, I would like to think that any reasonable person could see where I'm coming from. If you think I'm not making a fair point, say so, and let's talk about it. But you haven't engaged at all. So, what's the deal?

Need to compare the pistachion and Ranger wagons, though the pistachion wagon is of less value since it was driven by a claimed investigative result.

I was thinking about doing this one also, but I'm really not sure how much there is to get, given how Ogre claimed. Still might, though not as extensively.

[Axelrod]

You know my scum game? From where?

Do you know my Town game too? Because this is it.

[Axelrod]

Why no comment of Podo also voting based off NKA?

He did?

I was under the impression that podo already didn't like you from before. Maybe I'm wrong there. I see where he says that the flips dropped you in his opinion. I will admit I do not quite connect the dots on that comment yet.

[Axelrod]

at the very least, you ought to be able to see why your posts, made the way you made them, look questionable

Nope i don't and i dont see where you get this idea that i would, they look completely fine to me.

I mean the part where you don't seem to mention anywhere at any time that you supposedly went and read a case against Ranger and agreed with it and this was the reason you were changing your vote. You agree you did not mention this, yes?

You seem to think that it should have been obvious to anyone with eyes that this is what happened. I am suggesting that it was not.

You're acting like I'm the one who's crazy for even questioning you about them.

If you want to call yourself crazy be that way, but to me it looks more like misrepresentation in order to soft push me without actually pushing me.

Strike 3

VOTE: Axel

Strike three? What happened to strike two? I think you added one somewhere.

Now please answer this: after me (obviously) who are your next best guesses for scum? You have been pretty quiet on opinions about anyone recently.

Can you tell me why you're looking for scum *on* the successful wagon when it's pretty common knowledge that scum prefer to be *off* a lynch wagon?

I don't think that's common knowledge. I don't even think it's true. In my experience scum prefer to get the lynches they can get pretty much whenever they can get them. And "all-townie" wagons are pretty rare.

I think there definitely

can

be value looking at who was "off" a wagon, and why they were off it, and sometimes I'll do that too. But I like looking at the votes first.

Since Piper was the original proponent of saying who'd be lynched yesterday (long before it was actually set in stone - as Tammy argued pretty stongly when kicking my ass for stressing about deadline).

I mentioned this here:

Also the seeds of viable lynchability was probably laid long ago by Plotinus before Ranger replaced in, rather than Ranger herself. From memory Plot had the viable candidates as Seniors, Mirhawk and Swordsworth (who Ranger replaced). I think they were the three.

And looking up the actual post from Piper/Plotinus, it was here:

I think the lynch of the day is going to be between Seniors, Swordsworth, and Mirhawk. Almost everybody is willing to vote Swordsworth but 0 people are actually voting him, but we'll see what happens with the replacement.

What do you think of Mirhawk?

The original post is much longer and worth a read.

Now I left in the Mirhawk thing because Ploti especially has asked me several times what I think of Mirhawk and had him as potential scum early on (parking but not pushing) but is shifting toward town now (which doesn't seem like an original thought to me - but rather like something which is an opportunity to change her read). For the record here, my read on Mirhawk is... fluctuating. Getting "wigged" doesn't say anything about his own alignment, and I think it's a bad play for a Seniors/Mirhawk team to riff off each other like that (and I think it's also extremely unlikely for that to have happened). On the other hand I don't really like his blaze attitude to wagonning... but maybe as Marquis said I'm just being "so serious" a-la Christian Bale with dead parents-turned-vigilante rather than just taking this for what it is - a game.

Anyway rather than digressing on thoughts, back to the point.

What

do

you think of Piper's Mirhawk > Seniors > Ranger > Seniors vote progression on Day 1?
All good and unimportant - or something worth questioning for its lack of seeming reason?

I'm not sure if this question is directed to me or not. If it is, I have not thought at all about PP's vote progressions on D1. I have not thought very much about PP period. He's one of those players kind of drifting in the background for me.

I mean, if you're telling me his votes were made without seeming reason, I would be interested in that.

[Axelrod]

Why tictac is scum (yeah I went through ISO to back up stuff)

The early note about TWL's "I missed you so much" being forced was bullshit to start.

142 - is a gross early fencesit to start his Seniors read

144 - 175 has a bizarre defense of Seniors that looks like WKing. This was questioned by multiple people.

Then in 483 after an extended absence, Seniors randomly becomes a scumread?

After this he disappears for an extended period of time and then dumps two walls full of things that look like they serve no purpose other then looking like he's doing something 1203 and 1361

Then 1603 is yet another bad wall with a sheeping Seniors vote at the end. Develops a random Ranger scumread here with no explanation.

And then....that's it. He disappeared at deadline, scummy in itself.

His posts today have consisted of a sheep onto now-confirmed Pist and then an also-sheeped Dram vote, then back to Pist, then finally a weak Podo vote in 2578 despite nearly no mention of him in the wall preceding.

Tl;dr

-Sheeps random wagons, very little solo pushes that go anywhere
-Disappeared at deadline
-Develops random scumreads (Ranger, Seniors) to fit where the leading wagons are.

Since I've had these nagging feelings of dislike for TicTac, I decided to take a close look at this to see if I actually agreed with it.

Turns out what I agree with is that I don't like TicTac's big walls of "catch-up" posts with random questions to people. And that he hasn't done anything today. But a lot of this is just wrong.

I don't think #142 is a "fencesit" except in the sense that anytime you say you have no opinion about someone you are "fencesitting," which is silly. And it's especially silly early on in the game.

Maybe

, later, you could argue that someone really ought to have more of an opinion about another player in the game who has done X, Y, and Z. But even then, you can still waffle on people. Believe me, I know.

#144- 175 isn't a defense of Seniors at all, it's him questioning Beeboy for expressing such a strong opinion about Seniors when Seniors hadn't done anything to merit such a strong opinion. I believe I said essentially the exact same thing in one of my own posts. I don't like accusations of "White Knighting" in general. It's one of those vague, fuzzy accusations that sounds sinister but doesn't really mean anything. Arguments are good or bad. If you point out a bad argument you're not (necessarily) "defending" the person who the argument was being made against. You might have no opinion of them at all. And why that would make you more likely to be scum in the first instance never made any sense to me. Like, am I White-Knighting TicTac right now? I don't think so.

#483 you are completely misrepresenting. This was not a "random" switch to a scumread on Seniors. I mean, he explains it in the very first part of the post. This is after Seniors made that string of posts which I (along with several other people) criticized him for. What's "random" about it?

I agree #1203 and #1361 are underwhelming as big "catch-up" posts. If anything I would have though you would have brought up that in #1203, TicTac seems to be expressing suspicion of you, without actually saying it. He asks TWL why they are Townleaning you (twice, including one "Whyy?"). He asks podo why he is Townreading you. But he never says that he himself is scum-reading you, and looking back it doesn't look like he said anything about you prior to this, except that he

disagreed

with a push on you in #483. #1361 isn't much of anything. I do note that he at least mentions Ranger in this post and that he doesn't like how Rangers ended up with the top two wagons as her best scum reads when she came in (which was a pretty commonly held opinion, of course).

#1646 (not 1603) is not actually bad. And you are again seriously misrepresenting when you say TicTac has developed a "random" Rangers scumread with no explanation. Completely aside from the fact that he said something about Rangers in #1361, he also mentions his issues with Ranger in this very same post you are saying has no explanation. How do you get that?

He was absent for the deadline, so that's not great. It's hard to label it "scummy" though. If you are assuming a scum TicTac trying to stay low as the Town lynched a Townie, I don't even see why he would need to do that as scum. He was already on record as thinking Ranger was scummy, so whether he was there to vote or not, he's still on record. It would look worse (to me) if the person who was being lynched was someone that TicTac had previously

defended

.

And, yeah, today has been underwhelming. I did

kind of

like how TicTac reacted to Amihan's fake replace out. Because I do think that Ami/Marquis are likely Town, and I think it's at least a little less likely that a scum TicTac begs Amihan to stay like that. But maybe there's a relationship there I am unaware of? Podo vote is bad.

I don't know. This isn't doing much for me one way or the other. I'm going to post it anyway because I wrote it, but it's kind of a big "meh."

[Axelrod]

I'm tired of scum coasting, but we can't have everything we want.

Do we have Irony Awards on this site? If so, can I nominate this post?

[Axelrod]

Hi podo 'not the vigi' boq, thanks for dropping by. Also Axel when you started your long post, were you intending to support or not support cake?

I was intending to try and determine if the push felt legitimate or not. I've been wary of Cakez for a while now. And also try to firm up my feelings about TicTac at the same time. I wasn't entirely successful at either. I don't like a lot of that push. I think Cakez was definitely misrepresenting some things. But it's not like TicTac is a paragon of shining townness either. Hence my meh.

[Axelrod]

Out all day today. Possibly tomorrow too. I wouldn't even be posting this except that Rob is positively draconian with the prods.

[Axelrod]

Weekend catch-up. I'm going to break this up into several posts for readability.

I wanted Cakez to case you because 1) I'm a bit lazy, and 2) I don't

know

that Cakez is town, and I wanted to see him make a solid case. If he couldn't do it (which he did), then it gives me more reason to suspect him. It was a chance to get a better read on Cakez, so I took it.

You thought that case was solid? Did you read my post where I pointed out all the misreps?

I'm thinking I'll just claim right now. I was thinking about this earlier and I think it could get confusing if I get NK'd and it's up in the air. What do you think?

I know you didn't ask me this question, but the answer is: is this information that you have more valuable known to the Town than hidden from the scum? And that's something only you can really assess.

Mirhawk ftr I'm pretty sure that cake is town here. I know he is scummy but I dare you to find a game where cakez isn't scummy as either alignments. He has moments in this game that show some real town mentality that I don't think is fakable from his slot.

TWL is a bit easier, Mala in my experience hates playing scum and fades once she's put down a few good town posts. I played with her in my first newbie where she was scum and have two or three times after that (at least one of which where she was scum in a hydra with plotinus). After a strong entry Mala just... disappeared. Ploti was always giving her excuses for it - and obviously that could *is* RL-related as I don't expect either of them to actually lie as either alignment - but the entrance here rings really familiar with that PlottinKittehs game for me. And it's just unfortunate that GM disappeared because now the slot is actually a placeholder.

So, leaning scum, but at the least want the slot to *do* something - even if that means replacing.

Grouping these two posts together just because they illustrate another problem I'm having with this game, which is the sheer amount of "meta" reading that's been going on. Maybe it just looks that way to me coming in here as essentially the "outsider" (despite having been here longer than any of you guys ), but this game seems super-inbred. Everything is "I know X, and this is how X plays (as scum or town)"; or "X always plays like this (~scummy), so it's not alignment indicative..."; or "this is just how X played in (some other game)." It's actually wearing me down. Not only is this kind of "analysis" super-unhelpful to me personally, I also happen to think it's just poor play. Because, frankly, you're probably not as good at reading whoever this other person is as you think you are. People can mimic their "town" games as scum. And people

can

totally change how they play from one game to another.

I know it's somewhat inevitable when you get a group together that has played together a lot - obviously we have this where I play most regularly - but what's going on in this game seems extreme. I think we'd do a lot better to leave most of that kind of argument at the door, and focus more on behaviors in this game.

[Axelrod]

Also I need to ask Rob a question, but if I'm right:re my role, if I'm at L-2 -- treat me like I'm at L-1 until I get further notice from Rob.

I'm just noting this for future reference. Someone remind me later if I forget.

Actually we started with 21. So yeah 4 scum at most I would think.

Ditto.

OMFG Dave

Has anyone OTHER then me looked at his iso and noted how he hasn't done ANYTHING useful today.

I have noticed.

I'm tired of scum coasting, but we can't have everything we want.

Do we have Irony Awards on this site? If so, can I nominate this post?

You and podo needs to ask Daves if he understands what coasting means so he can teach you, cuz you're both

really

missing the mark.

We appear to be lynching town. Again.
Can we not?

At risk of ruining your perfect record of ignoring me, which Town are we lynching Dram?

I still kind of think Seniors is town.

You're probably right. I don't think your wagon analysis piece was going to result in anything productive; two town counter wagons doesn't really mean much with how the scum team was behaving.

This caught me up. What do you mean here with "how the scum team was behaving?"

I'm caught back up now and I think it's time to vote.

VOTE: Sir Cakez

Egh. This vote gives me the willies. I really despise naked votes with zero explanations/justifications. Especially on leading wagons. Skybird review incomming.

If I had to consolidate, it'd be on VOTE: Axel for his posts reeking of effort concealing motivation.

?

I have no idea what this even means.

[Axelrod]

VOTE: Podo Dram is actually just town this game, sry mate.

The hell? Since when? The only thing I've heard people arguing is that Dram is "unreadable" or that he always plays like this whether he's Town or scum so what would be scummy behavior from someone else is not alignment indicative

from him

. And even if I was going to accept that - because everyone is saying it therefore it must be so - where are you getting that this is "Town" Dram? What could he have possibly done for you to get a "Town" read?

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

This has got to be the most god-awful thing suggested in this game to this point thus far. And I'm not even a huge fan of TicTac. Seriously, what the Hell?

dramonic vote for PP w/ me please

Dram no vote with me.

If either of you can provide me with a good reason to ignore obvscum Axel, then sure?

podo is probably also scum.

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

8 terrible votes on the wall
8 terrible votes~

want me to drive the wagon off them and onto you?

~M

A shitty vote up there or a shitty vote on me, what does it matter?

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

More than the other three by a large margin.

You'll notice that two of my three scumreads are on my wagon.
HOW CONVENIENT!~

EDIT: I don't think cakez likes me.
EDITx2: I play like this when scum is running around being obv. Why the fuck would I put an effort in the game with three scums screamin around and being ignored?

All of these posts are super towny. His reads are relatively solid, he had issues with beeboy and cakez's posts, two people who are super easy MLs, and doesn't even include either of them is his scum pile. He's not in my townbloc yet but he's isn't that far from getting in there. He never should be a vig shot and super never should be lynched today. I'll protect Dram with my life if I have to.

Zero of those posts are towny. The fact that you call his reads "solid" is laughable. They've been

consistent

, but what's solid about that? He's listed the same three people as being scum forever, never argued any of them, and said literally nothing else.

This is what kills me. This kind of play would be the easiest thing ever for scum to pull. Especially if he's known for doing nothing. If all Dram has to do to be considered "town" is pick someone to vote and then proceed to do nothing but call them scum for the rest of the game, while pointedly and repeatedly ignoring all requests for more explanation, then why the hell would he ever do anything differently?

I think podo already argued a lot of this. But, Jesus, it's driving me nuts.

Am I the only person that has a problem with this? Am I just a bad player, or is itlepip just wrong here?

You are not wrong.

Guess what, just because someone doesn't provide reasoning doesn't automatically make something NAI. Looking at what the read is and the timing of it can also give you a read. I understand if you can't read it, but when someone comes along in a generally townread slot and says, yo, this easily could be town, I'm not sure why town would doubtcast that

What is "NAI?"

Also, I don't understand the rest of this point. Who is the person coming along in a "generally townread" slot and what are they saying? How is this improving your opinion of Dramonic?

Okay, that's just not how the game works. Depending on the size of the game, scum need to achieve a certain amount of mislynches to win, with certain roles such as vig and medic affecting that number. What needs to happen for town is to get a few extra scum flips early so that if we do end up in lylo its at worst a 5p and not the awful 7p which 999/1000 times scum just win. Even if you think Dram is 100% unreadable here, unless you have nobody in the game who you think has greater than a rounabouts 4/20 something chance of being scum Dram shouldn't be killed right now. All you are doing right now is again 16/20 times just lowering the necessary mislynch counter by 1 while providing town with nothing to go off of. You are either super lazy town that doesn't want to try to solve the game or just scum

You appear to be switching up your arguments again. This is back to "Dram is unreadable, and lynching him is basically a coin-flip, therefore, any lynch where you at least have some feeling that the person is actively scum is better." That's very different from "I think Dram is Town." Also, I completely reject the idea that Dram is just a coin flip. I

actively

think his odds of being scum are higher than most other players in this game.

His reads are solid in that I can verify that they are coming from a town standpoint and this feels like townplay to me. I think that you are fairly likely to be scum here, but even if you are town here the thought process from Dram is still towny.

Town never have 100% reads,

you can't try to read people based on the accuracy of their reads, but in whether or not the reads came from town or scum.

I'm bolding your own point. What the Hell? All Dram has done is adamantly vote for the same person (me) the entire game, while declaring the same group of three people scum for the entirely of the game, with 0 wavering. You say, "Town never have 100% reads" and yet, you are declaring Dram Town?

damn it

VOTE: Axel

I don't even....

VOTE: Skybird

GI tell is a tell that GI used against me one game and then taught me and now I use it. Basically I think Axel is approaching the game in a kinda scummy way/mindset.

You are like the umpteenth person to express vague feelings of dislike about my play without pointing to anything specific that I can explain/rebut. It's actually getting a bit frustrating. And, again, I feel like it's coming from lack of familiarly and me basically being the person on the outside of the cool kids club.

I would love for you to explain this "tell" so I can show you where you're wrong. I don't know what else I can do.

I was really reading Beeboy as Town, but now I'm really not so sure anymore.

I'll be here later, but I'm liking a lot of everyone on the last page so

...

I'll be here later, but I'm liking a lot of everyone on the last page so

That's... a really useless statement.
Zero opinions, just hearts for everyone, really?

I almost agree with Dramonic, unbelievable. Except that, of course, he's being a complete and total hypocrit here.

[Axelrod]

I have notes to myself to re-check Cakez case against Mirhawk, to see if it looked like the same kind of thing he was doing with his TicTac case, and also to re-read Skybird in her entirety.

[Axelrod]

The reason I think that Axel could easily be scum here is that all of his posts don't feel like genuine analysis but feel like he is trying to achieve a specific goal with each post. He makes sure that he has evidence for all of his claims based on some sort of theory, but its not particularly focused on game solving.

I post very deliberately. And most of my posts have specific purposes (sometimes more than one even). I am not, and have never been the seat-of-the-pants, spontaneous, or impromptu type. I don't know how you say it's not focused on game solving though.

For example take this. The way that multiquoting works is that Axel knows that I explain this later. Yet because his purpose of this post is 'push pip' he leaves it in cause it looks better even though there is no way this is an actual content since I explain this later.

Oh, I'm questioning you all right. But you think this isn't game solving?

Also, yes I know how multi-quoting works, and so do you. I'm going through the thread and flagging the posts that I want to say something about. Then, they all come up at once and this was the first one, and that was my reaction. I directly address the rest of your points in the post you made them in. You think I'm being sneaky here? Cleverly implying that you don't ever state why you think Dram is Town, while quoting your actual post immediately afterwards? That...would not be clever.

And, incidentally, for the record, you do not, in fact, explain your Dram opinion later. Not in any kind of real way. As far as i can tell, what it boils down to is "gut".

Yes, because shooting between people that I think are scum is so much worse than shooting someone I think is town...

Sure, and I'm expressing my opinion of your opinion. Which is that it is awful.

It is but you have to realize that Dram knows that this isn't a style that can get him to endgame 99% of the time. When you are below a certain post marker your posts don't really matter and the fact that he was still trying to gamesolve instead of jumping on easy targets. Also the fact that I agree with most of his reads and everyone that I'm scumreading is attacking me for townreading him makes me feel pretty good about that slot.

Why do I have to realize that "Dram knows this isn't a style that can get him to endgame?" This is your townie Dram who knows this? If he's Townie, why is he playing in a way that can't get him to endgame? Wouldn't that be dumb? I rather suspect he is trying to get to the endgame, and you (and a few others) are completely enabling him.

And he has not, at no time, tried to "gamesolve." Just repeatedly calling the same people scum over and over again is not game-solving. This is my primary issue with you right now. How do you say that with a straight face?

The thing about agreeing reads is fine - except, I would challenge you to go back and look at when Dram made these supposed "reads." Then tell me that he had any basis to be having such a "strong" opinion at the time. I would suggest he had no real basis at all, and that's at least part of the reason he's refused to give one for the entirely of the game.

Nope! 2 reasons. A). This is what you pulled in your first post which is 'even if I take what you guys are saying and his is 100% unreadable your play is still wrong' B. Yeah yell at me for calling him town but don't explain this, I get it.

I'm confused here. Are you accusing me of not explaining why I'm yelling at you for calling him town?

Again this is 'Axel needs to make sure that Dram is used for one of the MLs at some point and attack Pip" and he tries to base it on some kind of theory but this makes no sense. You don't read my post and come out with that analysis, this is analysis that came from a preconceived notion of what this post was going to be. Guess what, town tunnel, not only do they tunnel, but they tunnel all the time and it can be on town if somehow you are that. Saying that because a read is wrong they have to be mafia is super lazy and proba ly just mafia. Dram isn't in my towncircle, but I think we really really need a scumflip soon to be able to win this game and Dram isn't someone I think is particularly likely to do that.

Okay, first, I misread what you wrote, in that I thought you were saying that Town are never 100%

confident

in their reads, which made zero sense given Dram's play and your assessment of him as Town. I see now that what you were saying is that Town are never 100%

accurate

in their reads, which is obviously different. Even with that mistake, you are misrepping to say that I was ever at any time arguing that because someone has an incorrect read they have to be mafia.

Town may Tunnel, but what Dram is doing isn't even tunneling. He's just repeating the same thing over and over, but he's not engaging, he's not trying to convince anyone else, he's not making an argument. He's just doing the laziest thing possible. Can Town do that? Maybe? But I am never going to give them the benefit of that doubt. And no one else should either.

The tell is that you are coming into your posts with the intention of writing what you just wrote. Instead of adapting it to what you read.

So, basically, just the same thing as, whatever it's called when you slant everything someone posts to try and make them look as bad as possible.

Yeah, I don't do that. I don't even do that when I am scum, not that you would know or care, and not that I would expect you to. Like I said at the beginning, I always mean to write what I write.

[Axelrod]

-awakens-

Axel, quick question. If you ignore everything meta I've said about TWL so far, do you still disagree with my read?
(You're going to need to ignore my vote away from them onto Piper since that had a meta base)

OK, confession, I haven't looked very closely at TWL. And while I don't have any

positive

feelings about her, and I know I didn't like her Ranger vote, my hesitation is that she's just been so completely absent. She's another player on my "to-do" list. Which is uncomfortably long.

I just wonder why you're spending time bellyaching about meta when there are reasons aside from that. Even if I had no knowledge of the slot I'd have been finding their activity pretty damn useless and scummy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pick on you personally for the meta argument. I think literally

every single person

in this game is doing it. I just happened to see those two posts in quick succession when I was reviewing and felt like saying something about it. I'm not trying to dismiss any other points you were making. It wasn't about that.

(And what do you think of nacho/Piper's defense of the slot?)

Oh god, don't give me homework. I feel like I've got enough on my plate atm. I have no feelings at all about PP's "defense" of the slot, as I completely missed that PP was defending it. PP writes some walls.

[Axelrod]

Spoiler: map of skybird's ISO

skybird 3078

Axelrod

+24 -?465 -636 ☾ -=2567

Cerberus v666/millar13

+975 +=1752 +1753 ☾ =2649

davesaz

++==128 ++==697 =1230 ☾ =2469 ++2567 ++2659

dramonic

-465 -636 ++==697 ☾ +2469 +2567

dwlee99/Sakura Hana

+991 =1196 =1230 ++1444 ☾ +2650 +3078

Friendless Seniors

+128 +465 +697 =1019 +1087 -?1091 v--==1444 --1499 =1721 --1726 -1834 +1947 --2001 ☾ --2599 --2659 =2925

itlepip/Jim/beeboy

-128 -465 =635 -==697 -=1091 =1724 ☾ =2406 +2466 +2649 -2881

Marquis/Amihan

-691 -695 -697 --711 --723 ++==1018 =1444 ☾ +2454 -2881 =2922 =2925

Mirhawk

=966 -=974 =1225 -1230 =2331 ☾ --==2659 ++2781 ++==2925

pistachi0n

=1265 ☾ =2454 -2489 -v2490 -2491

⌾

uv2534 +2565 =2568 =2913

podoboq

--711 -1230 ☾ -2468 -2491 +2567 -2881 -2919 --2922 -2925

SirCakez

v23 =974 =994 =1018 uv1021 -?1091 -1834 ☾ =2490 =2565 --2781 --2810 -v2811 -2913 -2916 -2920 -?2925 -2955

The Pied Piper

=828 ++829 -991 ☾ -2810 -2881 -2882 -3077

THE WRONG LYNCH

=697 -=829 =1230 ☾

tictac

☾ -2369 ==2406 +2468 +2491 --2599

True Ogre

=128 -?828 ++829 ++2026 ☾ +2565 =2599 =2659 =2913

---

Ranger/swordsworth

+1196 +1264 ++1372 ++1444 ++1499 ++2001 ++2331 ✝

SnarkySnowman

-1087 =1225 ✝

Spiffeh

++697 =966 ++974 =1230 ✝

Tammy

++635 ++697 -=829 ++974 ✝

Did you actually go through Skybirds entire ISO and note every time she mentioned another player in this game? By hand?

Or is there some kind of program that does that for you?

[Axelrod]

I gotta say, I am enjoying Dwlee99's posts approximately 10x more than anything Sakura ever posted.

Doesn't mean he's Town, but it's certainly an improvement.

[Axelrod]

By hand. It's my thing. It's kinda relaxing. I do it in almost every game I've played, and sometimes in games i'm not playing but just spectating. It helps me look at how somebody's affecting the game state and how they're approaching the game. It takes less time than you'd think, though still quite a bit of time, but it also slows down my reading a lot and makes it so that I can't skim but have to really think about everything the person is saying.

I don't have maps of everybody yet, but by late game I will. It gets more useful once there are scum flips, but I can get some things out of it even like this.

I wanted to say "there's no way in hell scum actually takes the time and effort to compile a post like that" but are you admitting you do it as scum too

[Axelrod]

I finally looked at Cakez case on Mirhawk from #1774.

The short version is, it's not as bad as the case he did on TicTac. I don't agree that most of the stuff he was arguing is alignment indicative (Mirhawk's davesaz push, Mirhawk's reaction to the Miller claim/counter-claim), but opinions can differ.

I'm going to call slight misrep to say that Mirhawk only voted Ranger late after other people already voted her, implying he waited until there was more support for it. There was plenty of lead up to that vote and there was nothing suspicious about it.

On the other hand, I will give Cakez #1612 and #1700, which was when Mirhawk briefly jumped over to Cakez, as that one did look a bit opportunistic.

So, that's not really changing much of anything.

[Axelrod]

I was going to do my own thing on Skybird next, but since PP just did one, I might end up just checking to see if I agree with that or not.

[Axelrod]

Nevermind, Sky doesn't have that many posts. I'm going to do my own thing.

[Axelrod]

Okay, I'm just going to post "Day 1" of Skybird for now. I don't have time for more. Can skip to

TLDR

if you want.

Skybird's very first interaction was with True Ogre in #128. True Ogre asked a question and Skybird answered it. The answer was fine. What's slightly more interesting is that Skybird parried back by asking Ogre a question in return ("Any players that stick out as good or bad?") And this is not really ever followed up on. Ogre answered back in #381 with a non-answer ("I'd be delighted for you to nominate a person to have a take on") and nothing further happens. This will become a recurring pattern.

Skybird asks Dram twice to explain his reasoning for thinking that I (Axel) am scum (#465; #636, which Dram obviously ignores), but Skybird still has Dram "leaning Town" in #697 because he's playing like he played in some other game.

Question to Skybird: Did Dram vote people for no reason and ignore repeated requests to give his reasons in that game too? Because, if so, why are you even asking him to give his reasons in the first place? Was this actually some kind of trap question where his lack of response is what's making you think he's Townie, but if Dram had actually answered you,

that

would have made you think he was scum?

Aside from the Townlean on Dram, there's nothing else that sticks out as far as her early reads go in 697. That all looks fine to me.

Then there's her interaction with Amihan/Marquis, which I guess is the start of Marquis' push which continues to now. Ami made an early post where she said something to the effect of she hopes to get townread early this game so she doesn't have to work so hard. Skybird said she didn't understand/like that post because it sounded like Ami didn't want to scumhunt. Davesaz pointed out that Ami had recently played a game where she had to work very hard not to get lynched and said he understood where she was coming from. Skybird asked Ami for a link to that game. Ami responded by actually

voting

for Skybird (and not giving her a gamelink either).

Skybird's response is in #723. This is where Skybird says she plays the way she plays and doesn't care what other people think. She "notes" Ami's decision to scumread her for it. This isn't a great response. I can sympathize with lashing out a bit against someone voting you, but this is maybe a bit of an over-reaction to what Ami actually posted. Ami just said she thought Skybird was asking questions without following up like she didn't really care about the answers. She also said it was just an early vote. And Ami. was basically right - questions to True Ogre and Dram went unanswered and unfollowed up on).

I think the next couple of posts are fine. Sky gives some reads, she gets some attention, and she asks the people giving her the attention to explain.

#991 is a little out of left field. She asks Sakura to give her opinion on PP because PP is "making these long posts and my eyes glaze over before I've even started reading them. " But she had

just

said (in #829 that PP's posting was giving her "warm fuzzies" and that they could be Town for now. So, what's up with that? As best I can tell, PP did not post a large number of "wall" posts between those two posts of Skybird's. Maybe one?

Sakura Hana answers this question by quoting herself from a few posts before, and that's all that's said about that.

There's a bunch of questions next (to Snarky, to Beeboy, to Mirhawk, to pistachion), and I'm not looking up if those questions were answered or not, but it appears

Skybird

never followed up any of them any further. So, that's not great either.

First actual vote is for Friendless Seniors in #1444. I don't think Skybird had mentioned FS before this. The context was, however, that FS had recently voted Skybird, and this was a vote I have criticized Friendless Seniors for myself. So, I'm possibly biased but I don't mind the OMGUS so much here.

This vote will stick for the rest of the day.

Skybird is absent for 3 days. When she comes back, she challenges the people expressing suspicion of her (FS, Beeboy), and, not much else. She does not really engage in any kind of larger scum-hunting. She expresses that she's satisfied with her FS vote. She does give opinions about True Ogre (town) and Ranger (town), and then the deadline hits.


So,

TLDR

: There is a definite lack of scum-hunting. She's asking a lot of questions to a lot of people, but isn't following them up and does not appear particularly interested in the answers. Lurky. I don't actually mind the FS vote in and of itself, but she herself doesn't really argue it or try to convince anyone else. She just says she's "still ok" with her vote at the end. She was present and participating at the deadline.

Overall, for D1 at least, I would put her "leaning scum". There's no smoking guns (though the questions about her PP read and the Dram reads are real).

[Axelrod]

Dwlee slot = town

Cerb slot moves down. He seems to be hella trying to take advantage of Dwlee here. I'm sorry. Fucking cerbs case is "ranger thought it"? Bullshit. This isn't town cerb.

Let's Lynch Piper.

Pip, axel etc, the important thing here is that your case seems to be based on skubird not playing well. Honestly, your points are irrelevant to alignment. Town fucks up too.

Vote actual scummy person Piper, please? Not just mislynch bait.

I like Dwlee better than I liked Sakura, but he also hasn't done much yet except sheep you on PP.

I kinda agree on Cerberus, though it's more because it seems like he's sitting back now and following. I agree trying to use dead Ranger's reads list as a basis for anything because "Rangers pretty good at catching scum" is weak. I think he also threw a vague shot at me which was also very much going along with the crowd.

I don't have any strong feelings about PP yet. It seems like your case is mostly "This looks like Plotscum." That means nothing to me.

And as far as Skybird, I'm not getting the distinction you seem to be making between "not playing well" vs "playing scummy." You don't agree that some of her stuff is actively scummy looking?

[Axelrod]

Also just by the by, Axel continues to impress as scum.

I think it was itle that mentioned some 'GreyICE' tell. I read it at work and was about to just vote Axel if he was actually an alt.

Then I realised it wasn't actually GreyICE I was thinking of - it was ICEninja in Mini 1742. I really don't like the way Axel's coming in and sorta wall-posting cases on wagons which already have momentum. Out of the blue.

I can't remember exactly what the tell you said you got told about was, but I think Axel's quite likely scum and having a pretty decent verbose-scum-coasting game, most recently popping in with a series of accusations against Skybird in 3240.

Also Seniors I have you as town and not a small part of that is because of the shitty blitz game and the difference in your behaviour as opposed to there. I wouldn't be too quick to put Axel into a town category, just sayin'.

"Out of the blue?"

The entire reason I'm looking at the people I'm looking at is

because

they're getting votes. Those are the most relevant ones to case. I simply don't have the time to re-read everything anymore.

What about my Skybird post do you disagree with?

[Axelrod]

Skybird's D2 is a lot like her D1. I'm not going to post a whole thing on it. I support this.

Vote: Skybird

Unofficial Vote Count:

Skybird: Marquis, podoboq, The Pied Piper, Malakittens, Mirhawk, Axelrod (6)
The Pied Piper: Friendless Seniors, Dwlee99, dramonic, davesaz (4)
SirCakez: pistachi0n, tictac, Skybird (3)
Mirhawk: itlepip, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)
Malakittens: True Ogre (1)

[Axelrod]

Would also vote SirCakez

[Axelrod]

people are ignoring me and that is REALLY fucking suspicious

I'm not ignoring you. But I'm not going to vote PP just because you say so either. PP needs more going over than I've got time to give right now.

Axel what do you think about Mirhawk? The only thing in your ISO I can find about him is you addressing the case I made on him.

I am a Mirhawk fan, and have been for most of the game. I have zero interest in voting for him.

[Axelrod]

Is that "Target someone and then the next day that person (and that person only) gets to decide who the lynch is?"

So what you're saying is, there's no way to prove this now, because the person you targeted died?

I'd also be interested in hearing your actual role/name/flavor.

[Axelrod]

Cerb, I'm Oscar Jaffee from On the Twentieth Century.

This seems passable as a flavor claim. But

So IMO that's not a role that can be given to scum without compromising balance to the point of impossibility. The claim strengthens my town read.

So are we going to lynch town, or try to switch it to someone else?

Why do you assume Skybird is telling the truth about it? Just because of prior town read?

I agree you really can't have a scum "Kingmaker", but I have serious doubts if that's what Skybird really is.

[Axelrod]

Does anyone know anything about this flavour?

I just read a plot summary. I'm not understanding how the flavor could correspond to "giving someone power." Oscar Jaffee is a failed writer for live theater. He comes up with a great idea for a play, then plots to trick a great actress into being the lead, and ultimately they fall in love when she sees through the ruse.

It's possible I'm missing some of that plot, but I failed to see any correlation between the flavor and the role. That doesn't necessarily mean it's impossible, I'm just saying that as far as I can tell, the flavor doesn't add up to the role. The lovers and hated made a lot of flavorful sense, so I think it'd be weird if this one didn't make any.

Eh, I looked it up, and the character is a theatre "Producer", who at least in the past had made someone into a star. So I can see the flavor from that angle.

My issue is there's absolutely no way to prove this is really Skybird's role at this point since she conveniently used it up on someone who died.

[Axelrod]

like why would sky bird claim that as scum?

There are times when the question "why would X do such-as-such as scum" can be a valid reason for thinking someone is town.

This is not one of those times.

[Axelrod]

So, whatever happened last night has to be super-good, right? I feel like this is one of those "if I only knew what people were doing, I could totally crack this game wide open" moments....

Anyway

, this is jumping out at me this morning:

Vote: Friendless Seniors

lol why should we
i agree it's fully plausible those two (tpp) bussed skybird
in fact more than plausible
but FS and maybe tictac are way better lynches

I haven't ever and wouldn't ever vote someone as scum that I wasn't willing to see dead. I would never give a scum partner like that room unless she was competent enough to make it the distance and Skybird wasn't. As a lesser point, I wouldn't let my one-shot kingmaker claim "one shot kingmaker without a shot" in a thousand years, but that's only applicable if scumteam has daytalk.

Cakez, I have a pretty good idea where your tictac scumread is coming from, but they aren't scum. Axel would be a better vote.

The vote is for Friendless Seniors, so where is the "Axel would be a better vote" advice coming from? With no mention of FS at all?

Axel was actually my main concern to want to sort. The two say practically nothing ot each other all day until Axel comes in with another of those awkward full-steam-ahead cases (which was as the Skybird wagon was gaining a lot of support). I could consider tictac today but I'd have squint at it sideways I think. Last time I looked he was tending town but that was pre-flip.

I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this. What was "awkward" about it? And what was "full-steam-ahead" about it? Neither of those characterizations even makes sense. Skybird was very much a non-entity this game. When she started getting serious attention, I re-read her, noted everything I thought was relevant, and came out "leaning scum." Then I voted because that looked like the best option for where we were.

The fact that Sky completely ignored everything I had to say was part of the reason I had no problems continuing to vote for her. That and the weird claim, which I very much did not believe, but it turns out may have been at least partly true. I'll be interested to see exactly what a scum "Kingmaker" does when this is over.

oh that reminds me I'm a 2 shot cop with innocents on twl and dave ok bye

I'm looking for a :thumbs up smiley and not finding one, so you just get this

[Axelrod]

Re-re-reading Sky in light of flip.

She didn't give a lot of strong reads. True Ogre, davesaz, Dramonic strong town. TicTac and Mirhawk were kind of null/waffling. Her only votes ever were Friendless Seniors and SirCakez.

Of those, I think the FS one was the one that had a greater chance of actually happening. I don't think Cakez ever got over even three votes.

[Axelrod]

I am much less interested in lynching FS today than I was on D1.

[Axelrod]

It is entirely possible some of this comes from the fact that FS is no longer screaming I am scum every time he posts, which has a tendency to make me want to respond in kind, which is a character flaw in my game that I recognize.

[Axelrod]

I think I have to re-read all PP's posts now.

:shudder

[Axelrod]

I decided to look at Skybird wagon first:

Skybird: Marquis, podoboq, Malakittens, Mirhawk, Axelrod, pistachi0n, True Ogre, The Pied Piper, Dwlee99 (9)
The Pied Piper: Friendless Seniors, dramonic, davesaz (3)
Mirhawk: itlepip, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)
SirCakez: tictac, Skybird (2)

1st Vote

: Marquis at #2875. This is just a continuation vote from earlier push going back to D1. Marquis is Town, or Town has no Cop and we are going to lose.

2nd Vote

: podoboq at #2876. "Marquis is right," which isn't the greatest, but it looks like podo had Sky in at least his "top 3rd" list of suspicious people. He doesn't have his own case, but is basically barning Marquis and being fairly transparant about it. I've been reading podo strongly town most of the game.

3rd Vote

: malakittens at #3160. This is just a naked vote. In isolation, I would have said it could be a candidate for a possible Bus vote, but, malakittens/TWL has now been cop cleared, so, probably not.

4th Vote

: mirhawk at #3161. Not the greatest vote. Admittedly waggoning because he can't get momentum on his preferred lynch (Cakez). But he voted Skybird on D1 also, and never appeared to change his opinion on her. Mirhawk still looks okay.

5th Vote

: Me at #3398. I mean, do your own assessment. I reviewed her, didn't like her. Pretty much 'nuff said.

6th Vote

: pistachion (confirmed Town)

7th Vote

: True Ogre at #3468. Pretty much just a wagon vote as we approached deadline. Skybird was not Ogre's focus before this, it was mainly PP. He was "really skeptical" of a Skybird lynch as of #3325. The whole sequence is a little weird as it kind of reads like Ogre suspecting PP, to going along and following with him. (Note: PP was voting for Skybird before this, but will subsequently unvote, and then go back to voting which is why Ogre's vote comes first on this votecount). This one is another possible bus vote.

8th Vote

: PP at #3591 "I'm tired". As noted, PP was previously voting for Sky in #2877, but then unvoted in #3545. PP also did that huge "ISO Map" of Skybird's game activity in #3114, which looked like too much work for scum (though I've been told, not for him?). I don't know, the Unvote looks a little weird. PP talks about wanting to give Skybird "space" so Sky can give her reads, and it's all a little too earnest for me somehow.

9th Vote

: Dwlee99 at #3612. Naked hammer drop. Also a complete reversal from #3519, and #3553. Apparently his opinion changed very rapidly over the span of like 2 posts. This was also close to deadline. Still kind of eeeehhh. Dwlee is going to be a hard read for me with that style, but didn't love this.

If this isn't an all town wagon, the worst looking votes here are TrueOgre, PP and Dwlee.

Also noteworthy there were some other Skybird voters who left the wagon before the end - I believe Cakez and itlepip both were voting her at some point.

I haven't looked at the other people who were voting other people at the end yet.

[Axelrod]

Sorry people, I've got a raging headache and can barely function atm. I'll try to do something constructive tomorrow.

[Axelrod]

Axel I notice your wagon analysis is mostly composed of events that have happened and a conclusion. There is very little of your reasoning for having overall feelings that votes could be bus votes given what you've learned about the players in the came over the last month.

You say my vote is a "possible" bus vote, but overall do you actually think I'm scum? What's your assessment of my slot and why?

My overall view is that I think you're probably town, with a paranoid side of "there could be some kind of elaborate gambit going on here..." But probably Town. I think your claim is largely believable (with two questions see below). The analysis is what it is, and the conclusions are obviously from my personal perspective, but I welcome people to disagree with me about it. I'm happy to engage, it just hasn't happened very much so far. You are also just wrong to say my reasoning isn't including what I already know/believe about the players.

Regarding your full-steam-ahead cases too. This happened with you with your Seniors push as well where I think there were little indications that you were tending a certain direction, have looked around at what the group-feel was, and then have come in with a big case-post which I struggle to believe that you believe yourself.

A readslist from you with overall reasons would be great even if you feel like your reads are obvious.

It's kind of annoying when you take the time to do an in-depth re-read of someone, really try and formulate an opinion, explain your reasoning, and then get completely dismissed by people saying you're trying too hard and "over-justifying" and also you're just following along with the "group-think". At the very least give me some credit for forming my own opinions. And I'm pretty sure neither FS or Skybird were consensus lynches at the times when I voted for them. FS wasn't even lynched at all, and I didn't vote Ranger. There have been other people who have gotten votes I haven't voted for, and people I've voted who have gone nowhere. So the group-think allegation is just completely incorrect.

Clearly my style is rubbing a lot of people the wrong way in this game, I realize this. It's not the first time. Here's a sad but true war story. In 11+ years playing this game, over 5 different mafia sites and I can't count how many games, I have been mislynched exactly 1 time. Once. And that was right here on Mafiascum the very last time (I think) I was Town. Because a lot of people who had never played with me before were just super-suspicious of the way I sounded. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that, when I started, you could play whole games in under 1000 posts. Large games. In a lot of ways it was a lot easier. Now you have 2500+ post Day 1's. If I played more it might be different, but I'm probably too old a dog to learn you kids new tricks.

Also, since you asked so nicely, this is roughly where I am:

Mod-Confirmed Town: pistachion
Almost certain Town: Marquis, davesaz (based on result), Malakittens (based on result), podoboq (based on strong read)
Leaning Town: True Ogre, Mirhawk
Undecided: Pied Piper, Friendless Seniors, itlepip, Cereberus
Scummiest: Dramonic, SirCakez, TicTac (now replacement), Dwlee99

Undecided represents FS actually moving up from where I had him early on, itlepip is down from where I had Beeboy. Pied Piper is the one I feel most in need of re-reading, but I haven't found the time or energy to just do it yet. In scummiest, I've said everything I have to say about Draminoc. Pretty sure I've made my position on Cakez clear too. TicTac is also in need of a re-read, but I know there were several things I didn't like. Dwlee is just bugging me.

Also I have role-based reasons to *tend* to think Piper's town. It's not strong, but it's another consideration for me. And if you haven't picked up on what my role is yet, then you're just going to have to wait till I die or until it becomes super-relevant.

First Question to you: Given your claim, what "role-based" reasons are making you think PP is Town? You didn't ever target him, and I don't believe he's claimed anything.

Okay. Well this is going to be fun because I'm late for work again so I imagine there's going to be a nice rush of activity. But it was you I was waiting on to say go ahead itle since I assumed you had some part in the results.

I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

*sigh* have fun.

Second question: Did you by any chance inquire of the Mod. for any clarification on what would cause "no result". i.e. is this what the mod. would tell you if you were role-blocked (instead of just saying, for example, "you have been role-blocked.")

[Axelrod]

I'm really screwed right now because my home computer is on the fritz, which means I can only reliably get online on my work computer during the day which is usually very limited. This is hampering my ability to do any of the things I want to do.

[Axelrod]

phone posting since computer is still on the fritz.

Marquis, since you keep throwing my name out there as someone you would vote for, can I ask if there is something specific you are having a problem with? All I seem to remember you saying is something along the lines of you thought it looked like I was trying too hard.

[Axelrod]

it was that line about posts that reek of effort concealing motivation

[Axelrod]

Can I add my vote to the people who are tired of all the vague hinting on information that's going around? I also feel that if like 1/2 the people who are saying they know stuff actually know stuff then this game could be broken open.

[Axelrod]

u r wrong

[Axelrod]

I'm tired and this possibly isn't the greatest idea, but I'm done with this dumbshit distraction.

Cakez is the vig; he crumbed shooting Snarky and then Snarky died. We thought he might be SK based on how blatant it was, pushed him, decided it wasn't the case.
Flubber is a JOAT with a Neighborize + Bulletproof + Investigative; Tictac used the neighborize on Plot N1, which Plot liked because Plot was his IC and they didn't think that a newbie scum would be willing to get a neighborhood with their IC. I thought that Tictac's reaction to Plot's more incoherent posting seemed ridiculously town; they mentioned that they were pretty paranoid of us before but thought that Plot seemed really vulnerable and that seemed really town to them + there was just a bunch of shit in that neighborhood I don't feel like elaborating on now.
When we crumbed the inno on Tictac, it was in response to Cakez probably shooting Tictac; we felt that he was very likely town based on neighborhood posting and knew that his kill failing was probably going to make him think that Tictac was 100% scum and we wanted to warn him off that before it happened.

The reason I said that this had nothing to do with our claim is because look, we still haven't claimed, and we've explained the PR thing! Plot overplayed it a bit because they were trying to emulate the Jingle wizard stuff from Original Mafia; Plot has other roles figured out (they knew Ogre was a not-significant investigative role earlier), but I really don't think outing any of that crap is relevant unless you believe we just haven't given enough or something stupid like that.

So, after all the hinting, does this boil down to: "We think TicTac/Flubber is Town b/c they neighborized us on N1 and they sound very Townie

in the neighborhood

?" b/c there's nothing about the role (as claimed) that makes it Town, and Tic's posting in this game thread is pretty medium. Also, if you were scum with a Neighborize, how would you use it? Don't you hit up someone in the Town you think you can get on their good side of? I'm not sure about your logic of "they wouldn't pick me if they were scum b/c they would be afraid I would see through them." And TicTac made himself bulletproof on N2 and no one died so maybe the vig. took a shot at him? Which is possible, but also doesn't say anything about TicTac's alignment. The fact they still have an investigate in their pocket also seems somewhat convenient. That would have been the first thing I shot off if I had those abilities.

I will also echo the sentiment that nothing I've seen shows that Cakez is a vig. Frankly, I would actually like to know that if it's true since he's right there in my pool of people I could lunch.

Also, I'm sort of with Dwlee (14???) in as much as that this also says nothing about PP's alignment. It at most suggests that he and Flubber would not be scum together. And I think PP over-hinted the way he said that Tic was Town.

FS is now doing the same thing he did on D1 which is viciously attacking anyone who votes for him, and/or showing willingness to wagon anyone who isn't him, which is not improving my opinion of him. Can I ask you to lay off the language also? It's super unpleasant to read.

[Axelrod]

FS is now doing the same thing he did on D1 which is viciously attacking anyone who votes for him, and/or showing willingness to wagon anyone who isn't him, which is not improving my opinion of him. Can I ask you to lay off the language also? It's super unpleasant to read.

We are literally voting cerb who is townreading us. This is bullshit. I don't care how unpleasant it is, you're clearly lying about reading. Cerb is TOWNREADING us. Whole reason I chose him. He's the scum not on my wagon

Cerb would be the "willing to lynch anyone who isn't him" part of the equation. You are also, in addition, attacking everyone who votes for you *(and, no, I'm not cross-checking that comment because I don't have the ability to do so atm and you have probably not literally attacked every single person who has voted for you or expressed suspicion of you but that is about what it feels like).

[Axelrod]

I also think it's weird that Flubbernugget came by and posted and had nothing at all to say about his role or PP outing him.

[Axelrod]

Why is it so hard to form a Mirhawk wagon all of a sudden? Marquis has a pretty solid case.

All of a sudden? It's been like, 20 minutes.* WT actual F?

There's no way I'd even consider voting Mirhawk without a thorough review. I don't care if Marquis is the Towniest player in the entire game.

VOTE: mirhawk

I was wrong once maybe wrong again

Unlike some people. See, this is just bull.

are you fucking kidding me?

seriously?

I push and push trying to gamesolve ALL FUCKING GAME WHILE BEING BACKED INTO A CORNER. PUSHING PEOPLE THAT AREN'T POPULAR

I FUCKING BANDWAGON ONE TIME AND YOU SAY THIS?!

ONE TIME?!

Seriously?

Thanks for working on that language thing.



*Hyperbole people

[Axelrod]

Still have very limited comp access. Looking like I may have a completely new computer this weekend.

I might have some availability during the day tomorrow though, so we'll see.

[Axelrod]

I finally had a chance to dig into Marquis case on Mirhawk from 4439. And I'm not voting there.

The thing is, Marquis, most of what you're accusing Mirhawk of just isn't accurate. You're saying he's acting inconsistent with respect to his reads, but I don't see that. He had Skybird as a scum read from early on D1, and never came off that. The one post you quoted, where Mirhawk agrees (with FS) that your point against Skybird for unvoting after pistacion was mod-cleared wasn't really a point, doesn't change that. He can think that's not a valid point without it being a defense of Skybird and I didn't read it that way. It's more an expression of skepticism against you, which is something else he's been consistent on.

He also hasn't flipped-flopped on Cakez as far as I can tell. He's called Cakez scum for a long time and that hasn't changed. And I guess I'm more sympathetic than you are to the idea that he could lose enthusiasm for the vote when no one else seemed interested in voting the same way. I also don't read Mirhawk's post as him "immediately believing" TPP's claim about Cakez. I read it as "why would you say this (TPP) if what you are saying is true..." He's criticizing TPP (and not simply believing him). I also think the way TPP acted around that whole "reveal" was strange. The post asking Cakez not to vig him looked mostly like a joke.

Aside from that, I'm seeing suspicion for him not 100% accepting your claim at face value, which is kind of ehh. I think he's being overly paranoid, but the fact is, you

could

be pulling some kind of scum-gambit, and I don't think he's seriously arguing that, just reminding people of it. So, you can get on him for that, but he's not wrong. And I'm not sure what advantage he gets as scum in that spot. And his posts around your fake-miller claim, which I also don't find scummy.

There's just not that much there. And I agree with a lot more of Mirhawk's posts than I disagree with, which probably isn't true for most of the people in this game.

[Axelrod]

Frankly, I think everything you thought was suspicious about Mirhawk applies like 2x over to SirCakez.

[Axelrod]

I don't see any harm in claiming, as scum were never going to shoot me anyways. I'm a vanilla townie.

Yer in trouble. Crumb for ogre.

Is there a reason why you left out your role/musical from this? Also, didn't you say your role didn't match your flavor? How does that fit with vanilla townie?

[Axelrod]

Eh, I'm liking Mirhawk latest here. If Marquis and Cakez are alright with Axel, I'm alright with it as well.

VOTE: Axelrod

Well, that came out of left field.

You're not going to turn out to actually be scum, are you podo? Because that would make me sad.

[Axelrod]

You're putting your faith in Cakez?

CAKEZ?

[Axelrod]

*that was still to podo.

I really have to go make a case.

[Axelrod]

On whom?

Cakez. but he's got over 400+ posts which is just a bear to cover.

I've got some free time this morning though, so I'm going to just do it.

[Axelrod]

I think a lot of people have written Cakez off as town the whole game because they liked his early posting.

I

liked his early posting. But that was more or less just a "gut" feeling. And when you look at his actual behavior, and his logic this game - and especially his votes - it's just not Townie.

I think the first niggle that caught my attention was when Cakez was so willing to write off Dramonic's play as just "Dram being Dram" and basically said He always plays like this regardless whether Town or scum, so Cakez was willing to just completely give him a pass. And that's both (1) lazy, and (2) poor play. Incidentally, it looked like Cakez was using a sample size of 1 prior game experience to make this read, which is also not great.

I think more than one person suggested that at the very least Dram would be a good vig. target because of his play/unreadability, and I think it's worth noting that, when Cakez was proposing targets for any Vig to shoot at, he pushed hard for Snarky, and then suggested TicTac, and didn't mention Dram at all. And when challenged on why not Dramonic, he conceded Dram would be OK, but still preferred the others. And his logic here makes no sense. Because if someone is both (1) useless and (2) unreadable, which Dram unquestionably was being the first, and Cakez was arguing the second, then doesn't that make them the ideal vig. shot? It's the same logic he was using to push for Snarky, but somehow it didn't apply to Dramonic?

Anyway, that was just one little bit of inconsistency in his logic

Ranger Wagon

Then there was the whole Ranger Wagon. I already posted about this. Cakez did a complete 180 on Ranger in less than a day. Making a big post on why he thinks Ranger is Town one day, then turning around and voting her the next. He tried to say it like it was Ranger or nobody, but there was a completely viable alternate wagon - FS almost

got

lynched D1. I think less than ~6 hrs before the deadline his lynch was being more or less assumed because there wasn't "time" to vote anyone else. But Cakez didn't vote for him. Cakez voted Mirhawk. Cakes voted TicTac. Even though he had made a whole "Why Seniors is scum" post just a day before. This is the kind of stuff I'm taking about.

And even as he was voting Ranger, Cakez appeared to be trying to set up the following days lynches without any consideration for what the flips were going to be. He said he "demanded" we open with a TicTac wagon tomorrow, and, true to his word, voted TicTac immediately (also did the

exact

same thing on D3, vote now abandoned). I'm not saying that his read on TicTac should have necessarily changed after Ranger/Spiffeh/Tammy flips, but the behavior there is something that scum just often do. It's just easy and convenient. TicTac was going to be scum regardless of how Ranger flipped - which, if your reason for believing that is independent, fine, but Cakez was then trying to

use

the Ranger flip to support his TicTac vote. Which is weird because he also said that we should look at TicTac if Ranger had flipped scum. And you can't do that both ways. Not if you're being honest.

Possible slip Here, when Cakes makes the statement that "this isn't an elaborate game like Tarot," (and then that only "very standard roles" had been flipped). How could he say that based on the info. we had at the time? Not unless Cakez had access to a lot more role information than was genreally available. This was also just not a reason to Townread FS. Pointed out multiple times that Fruit Vender is a role that can go either on Town or scum. But now, apparently he's got FS as a "strong" Townread.

Skybird Wagon

Is notable because Cakez WAS voting for Skybird on D2. And it was the leading wagon, but he then

left

the wagon to try and push the alternate (Mirhawk). His reasoning: he was "No longer confident" about Skybird, and Mirhawk was "better", without explaining/arguing either. He did late say that Skybird could die (pretty much right at the end when the lynch was foregone conclusion though, and he still didn't vote there, though it didn't matter).

I also note, he did the same thing with Dramonic on D2 as D1. Even though he

said

that vigging Dramonic was the best way tio deal with him, earlir in the day, when he came out with his late in the day list of Vig. Targets, Dramonic was not on it.

I already made the point here about how it appeared Cakez started to default to "meta" reads on a lot of people late in the day. Basically just saying so-and-so feels this way or that based on his experience with them, which is super lazy/convenient. And that has continued.

Also, on a more personal basis, I point out that Cakez has been saying he could vote me forever, and not once made an actual argument for it, despite saying he would do so. And this most recent vote is literally him taking a census/dipping his toe in the water/finger to the wind and saying "Hey, there have been a lot of people who have said they could get behind an Axelrod lynch, so how about this..."

He has now been more or less throwing out the same names (Mirhawk, TicTac, me) the entire game as his scum-reads. And very little comment on other people. I already dissected his "cases" on both of them (TicTac, bad; Mirhawk, kind of null).

So, yeah, bad logic, bad votes, myopic scumhunting.

Vote: SirCakez

I don't know if this can go anywhere in the time we have, but there's nothing Townie here.

[Axelrod]

I, for one, am looking forward to another patented Axelrod case.
It's been a minute.

I hope you enjoy.

[Axelrod]

On the Broadway question, I believe my show is currently on Broadway, for whatever that is worth.

[Axelrod]

Everytime I see Hiplop with that "Best Town Performance" badge it's making me think of an old Star Trek Next Generation Episode where Data/Troi/O'Brien got possessed, and claimed they were possessed by the spirits of former Starfleet Officers. And someone asked Picard if he believed they really were Starfleet officers and Picard kind of ruefully smiled and said "Then they should be behaving very much better, don't you think?"

[Axelrod]

just feels opportunistic

staying on mirhawk myself

cakez move back please

also nah cakez is townier and never hedged on him before. that seems more blatant, and axel wasn't in danger of lynch when cakez moved over

I can move back later for deadline but I really want to get somewhere on Axel.

How about you actually attempt to argue it then? Or respond to me? Or do anything except just sit there.

[Axelrod]

Unvote

Vote: Friendless Seniors

Better than Mirhawk.

[Axelrod]

Good game guys. We totally lost it on N2 when Marquis did not die, and subsequently claimed Cop. I will applaud my scummates for sticking it out as long as they did, but that felt almost unrecoverable.

Well, Axel was definitely going down, but yeah TPP was going to be difficult.

Going down? Me? Never! You had nothing! Nothing, I say.

Seriously, good shot, because even though it felt like literally everyone had me pegged as scum, no one had anything behind it other than vague feelings of unease. I totally could have talked my way out of it if given the chance!