A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Mirhawk]

Geez. No, I am not seriously policy lynching TWL because Hydra. I have no actual opinion of them yet.

I am having a hard time believing that you could seriously believe that either.

+1

I'm also having trouble believing that all the people who are supporting Saks on this think its legit as well.

[Mirhawk]

Vote: Davesaz

[Mirhawk]

Or Saks or Dave.

[Mirhawk]

Wow, you pulled back on the hydra thing pretty quickly when people began to question it.

Dave throws doubt on Axel without actually placing a vote. I think he's waiting for the wagon to gain traction before getting on.

The Hydra thing is kinda dumb anyways.

[Mirhawk]

I'm not familliar with either Hiplop or EP.

Your case seems to be based off your familiarity with them. It doesn't mean much to me.

[Mirhawk]

Why haven't you voted Axel yet?

If you don't intend to vote him why do you keep making sidelong comments on his wagon?

I don't really think "this is what I do" is a very good justification.

[Mirhawk]

I believe the nature of the game is to comment on what we see and watch to find out what others do in response. Is that not your understanding of how it goes?

That's cute and all but my question still stands.

If you found his behavior suspicious why didn't you vote for him?

If it wasn't suspicious why did you point it out.

[Mirhawk]

False dichotomy. You leave out the possibility that the behavior is neutral (or that I haven't formed an opinion on it yet) but the responses to my comments from him and others will help me sort people.

That's not how a false dichotomy works, as evidenced by the fact that you managed to answer my second question while pretending you didn't.

Both of the statements you made about Axel were accusatory in tone, they didn't sound neutral to me at least. Do you think Axel is town or scum?

@B
Dunno man, being self involved isn't really a scum tell.

[Mirhawk]

I suppose you could make the argument that its indicative of her being overly concerned about how she's being perceived, but I think that's probably common in paranoid players and PR's in addition to scum.

[Mirhawk]

But it is null

And beeboy's push iis bad

This was more relevant before I read the posts that followed it as Seniors later posts are kinda ugly, but this is essentially how I feel about B's early push on Seniors.
It's based on meta and their reactions while the game was still in RVS. Neither of which is particularly compelling to me.
That being said, I'm pretty sure B's town (an assumption which is ironically enough also based on meta).

You presented an either/or question which presented that there could not be any other answer, where the answer was none of the above. It doesn't get any more false dichotomy than that.

I made it very clear that my read is null. Your push however is not.
VOTE: Mirhawk

There were plenty of different ways to answer those questions. The second one was so open ended you could have said just about anything and still answered it.
What is it about my push that's not null? Because from here that looks like a poorly justified omgus vote to me.

[Mirhawk]

@Seniors
Also, what the hells up with that Snarky business?

Whats weird? B has a point as well, do you not remember him from the game you just played or did he play differently in that game?

[Mirhawk]

ugh

[Mirhawk]

?

I had a bad experience.

[Mirhawk]

My flavor makes me think that a flavorclaim would be unhelpful.

[Mirhawk]

I've seen it once, but it was retracted within a page and dismissed as a gambit.

[Mirhawk]

I'm curious Sakura, what do you think of The Wrong Lynch and Dave?

[Mirhawk]

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

[Mirhawk]

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

[Mirhawk]

I agree with your first and Third points on Ticktoc. Second ones kinda feelsy though, from both sides.

[Mirhawk]

Let's not be so hasty.

About?

[Mirhawk]

Are you Salamance in disguise?

Because I'm not doing this fake miller gambit bullshit again.

[Mirhawk]

I stand by what I said.

[Mirhawk]

Are you a miller or not?

[Mirhawk]

Stop implying you've a miller and spit it out.

Are you a miller?

[Mirhawk]

Pfft. I don't think Ami's even a miller.

[Mirhawk]

@Cakes
I stand behind what I said. Whats your issue with it?

[Mirhawk]

Whats wrong with my fence? A miller CC is by no means a solid scumtell. I'm willing to give it a shot but it's pretty obvious that I'm not that confident in it.

In either case Ami has most certainly not claimed miller. She has implied she is the miller, she hasn't outright said it anywhere. I want a confirmation from her that this is not a gambit, because if it is then there's no reason for me to be voting Pistachio.

[Mirhawk]

That reads to me as a CC, so yes your fence sit is pretty bad.
~M

It reads to me as an implied CC without explicitly stating that she is indeed a miller.
How is my fence "pretty bad" anyways? That's pretty vague.

I'm not sure how if she doesn't believe that Ami cc'd,

but is willing to jump onto the building train that was happening that early page on.

I'm certainly a lot more sure of Mirhawk being scum than I was when I was reading early yesterday.

~M

?

[Mirhawk]

Open to what?

I've publicly stated that if it is a gambit that I don't want to lynch Pistachio, how is that leaving my options open?

I am absolutely setting myself up for saying she was fakeclaiming ahead of time. What about that isn't clear, the way she claimed was shady as shit.

Also whats your problem with my vote on pistachio? if Ami says it isn't a gambit then I'm fine with it.

[Mirhawk]

I'm having trouble reading FS. I agree with your statement podo, but I don't think that what he's doing is necessarily good scumplay either.

[Mirhawk]

All wagons in general I should say, not just this one.

The only thing I've noticed him doing is pushing Cakes.

[Mirhawk]

Things goin on...

Anyways I'm not going to be around a lot this weekend, just a heads up.

[Mirhawk]

Checking in

The way you are continuing to engage screams town, compared to Mirhawk who just figuratively crossed his arms and stopped listening.

This is coming from the guy who started ignoring me when he realized he couldn't justify his vote.

When you started avoiding me I engaged with other things, when ami didn't come back I did the same thing.

@pistachio
I've never played with an actual miller that I remember but in one game a scum player claimed miller than claimed it was a gambit and used my reaction to the claim to mislynch me.
Which is why I was so supicious of Ami, and to be honest still kind of am.

In either case I totally called that shit and whoever it was that said I was setting myself up to say that (TWL?) Can eat me cause I was totally right.

Anyways just realized pretty much every person on my wagon (except maybe cakes) is my scum pool (which kind of shitty but whatever).

Dave's scum. I'll probably say a bunch of stuff about it later when I have access to a pc.

Unvote
Vote: Dave

p

[Mirhawk]

/dodge
I'll be back tomorrow.

[Mirhawk]

There's a lot to respond to here so I'm likely going to make several posts.

First off I promised to point out why I think dav's scum.

First off read his iso. Everything until he places his first vote is sidelong comments on other wagons. Half of that is throwing shade with no votes cast.

His first vote (which is not till page nine) is for what precisely? Immediately after placing it he goes back to asking pointless questions. He makes literally zero effort to convince a single person that I'm scum.

I tried to question him on the vote but then he disappeared until after that miller business at which point he was no longer interested in discussing his earlier case.

He's been sitting on me since post 213, but since then has only mentioned me once.
He didn't even call me scum in that post, rather saying I could be town or scum.

What's he doing now? Still making sidelong comments without seemingly looking for scum at all.

He's being townread for what precisely?

[Mirhawk]

Wait no, it was twice.

[Mirhawk]

I don't really like Pipers 582. I'm not seriously considering them scum or anything, I just don't like it.

I don't care about anything in the first half, and I somewhat agree with the bit on BB.

It's mostly just opinion, but it's all wrong.
That's a lot of wrong in one place, in one big post, and its all about me, and I don't like it.

[Mirhawk]

People taking about flavorclaims.
I see no reason to not do it. As I stated before, my flavor has nothing to do with my role so I kind of doubt it does for anyone else. I don't think it will gain us anything, but I don't think it will lose us anything either.

[Mirhawk]

Currently Mirhawk because his reactions to Ami's Miller CC was very questionable, felt like he knew it was fake, and then I really don't like his dave push.

It WAS fake.

How would scum be any more or less likely to know this then town?

Literally the only way for any reasoning following this line of thought to work is for Ami to also be scum.

[Mirhawk]

I personally found his early posts felt too much like drive-by sniping. The questions were all pretty good ones, but none of them really felt like they connected with the gamestate at all.

The Miller stuff definitely makes him very likely to be Scum.

I want you to justify every single thing in this quote because every single part of it is horseshit.

[Mirhawk]

Hey guys I think Swordsworth should be the ultimate lynch for today

Carry on

No?

He's a good vig shot, but a wasted lynch.

[Mirhawk]

He's barely even here. We would be better off lynching a more active player. That way there would be far more information available to the town in general. As we would be able to examine how other players interact with the lynched player.

How do you not know that, this conversation happens literally every time a policy lynch is proposed.

[Mirhawk]

davesaz is definitely town

No

[Mirhawk]

He has ONE post that interacts with the game and two nothing posts.

I'm not against taking him out, but I am against using our lynch to do it.

[Mirhawk]

Especially on day one.

[Mirhawk]

No he obviously did realize it, and then decided it looked bad and backtracked on it two posts later. Yeah that's a thought process people have, I've done it before as scum.
No voting there sucks because there was definitely enough to make scumreads from at that point. He didn't say anything about changing his mind until prodded pages later, he just naked voted.
Yeah I am

This argument sucks as this is a thing town do too.
Town might do it for different reasons, but they still do it.

[Mirhawk]

In separate news, I'm not seeing anything town from Dramonic. Is this normal for him?
<hint for Mirhawk -- which alignment DOESNT KNOW the other person's alignment, so has to ask questions?>

You ask a lot of questions yeah, but what scum have you found with them so far?

Where is it that you think my vote should be other than you? I think you're scum.

[Mirhawk]

Mala/gm are definitely town

No

[Mirhawk]

I'd settle for swords as a lynch today but not Mirhawk.

Also no.

At the very least after my flip it would be come immediately apparent that most of the people on my wagon are full of it.

[Mirhawk]

Mala/gm are definitely town

No

You do realize that this will not phase me, right?

That means I shouldn't say it?
I think you're town and would be tickled pink if you would stop townreading scum.
But no, I am aware I can't make you do it.

[Mirhawk]

How on earth would I know its fake?

What does a third party have to do with it?

How does this in any way invalidate my earlier statement?

[Mirhawk]

Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?

Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:

My strongest townread is Tammy. I'm feeling pretty confident she is town. Spiffah is also pretty town.

I'm leaning town on Dramonic. He's playing like he did in the last game I was in with him. I'm also leaning town on you.

I'm not sure about Beeboy. He's making a lot of noise and I don't see his push on FS. But maybe I'm missing something that FS has did that makes him scummy. FS is on my ISO list.

I'm trying to sort Ami right at the moment. I didn't like her statement in 685 because it sounds like she doesn't want to scum hunt.

I have a lot of null reads because they haven't posted or what they posted didn't make a big impression on me.

p-edit: TWL, what am I missing? Ami's post struck me as weird. Why does it not bother you?

Have you ISO'ed anyone yet?

I find your post kind of weird. Mostly due to the fact that the people you comment on are pretty spread out between the various groups of players.

[Mirhawk]

Yes

Why?

[Mirhawk]

And mirhawk is cool for agreeing with me, and I like that vote too.

Aren't you worried that mirhawk might be whiteknighting you?

WTF is this.

[Mirhawk]

He says he's worried about a scum counterclaim from Amihan, then us lynching pistachion. He says he doesn't know what we'd do after that, but I think it's obvious that you just lynch Amihan in that case. This is moot now, because Amihan claimed it was a gambit, but if she stuck to her Miller claim, and pistachion flipped Miller, the play seems obvious, and it's a 1for1 trade. That's good for town.

He suggests lynching pistacion, then suggests not lynching Amihan in retaliation if pistachion flips Miller. That could be protecting a scum partner (Amihan) or more likely, getting town cred for suggesting not to lynch someone he knows will flip town (Amihan), knowing that if we follow through with the pistachion lynch we would definitely lynch Amihan next. Again, these lines of play have changed since Amihan claimed it was a gambit, but that's where town was when he made that post.

I was going to address this later but this is a good post to respond to so;

The thing I was worried about from the beginning was that Ami was scum, and that lynching Pistachio wouldn't result in lynching her the next day.

It wouldn't be that hard for her to avoid the lynch honestly. 1 for 1's are bad scumplays, that argument alone might have saved her.

I decided after posting that there was no way find out if the CC was legit or not without flipping one or both of the people involved, so I voted for pistachio anyways.

I didn't think Ami was gambiting until several posts later when I noticed that she repeatedly avoided addressing weather or not she was a miller directly.

I don't like miller gambits as I have gotten stung by it before, so I immediately demanded clarification.

The game in question is http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=57822 in which Salamance led a town mislynch on me after claiming Miller.

I don't think I can make my reasons clearer than that, but ask away.

[Mirhawk]

My flavor is related to my role. I recommend against.

Alright.

I assumed that because mine wasn't that it was universal.

[Mirhawk]

That's what bothered me most about the Mirhawk post around the miller claim. It felt like he saw right through it and that he was fencesitting himself to go either way and kinda show that he knew Ami was lying.

If Mirhawk flips scum; I'd prob say that FS could potentially be a huge partner.

What exactly do you want to know regarding my Mirhawk push?

I DID know Ami was lying. I don't get why people keep saying I said that for townpoints. How on earth does knowing that make me town?

I DO expect that at some point someone is going to congratulate me on a good catch however.

If I was scum and I knew Ami was lying you should lynch should be Ami, not Seniors. As that's the only way I could have known she was lying about the miller claim.

[Mirhawk]

The Wrong Lynch and Tammy, can you sum up the argument between you two? (...three?) Too many words.

Also, I think my Skybird case was pretty solid and it is being ignored for boring FS stuff.

Skybird's acting really weird.
You seem to be his top scumread but he hasn't even mentioned that miller business.

[Mirhawk]

Then why were you voting for pistachion because of the counter claim if you knew Amihan was lying?

Because I might have been wrong and I wanted her response first.

Is there some kind of reason my vote shouldn't have been there?

[Mirhawk]

Not really sure what you mean by the bolded?
Do you mean that you're not comfortable with Amihan's alignment if Pistach flips town?

No.
I meant that if we assume she was scum then we have to assume she is playing badly.
If we assume she is town then we are making assumptions about the game setup that we cant back up and have no way to confirm.

I don't like either of those choices.

[Mirhawk]

@Spiff
Would you be happier with "I thought"?

@Cakes
Of course a third party wouldn't CC miller, it would be a terrible play. That's why I asked why you're bringing them into this.
I'm referring to post 857.

[Mirhawk]

Sorry I've been a bit absent recently. Kinda haven't had much to add. Here's a tiny readslist.

TOWN

Amihan: Her gambit has been immensely useful for the town as a reaction test. If she's scum, she made a huge mistake.

Pistachion: I mean, he isn't counterclaimed. I'm not voting pistach unless something pretty serious happens.

beeboy: Too much loud nonsense to be scum. He drew

way

too much attention to himself.

Cakez: I think his perspective on things is very towny. He's open to contribute, engages in just about every conversaiton, and his opinions seem to align with mine for the most part.

SCUM

FriendlessSeniors: Not contributing in a meaningful way, and attacks Cakez for what is clearly bs.

dramonic: The only way dramonic seems to know how to contribute is by flinging shit at people then ducking away and seeing what stuck. He's scumreading people, but refuses to provide any logic as to why. I've asked him why he's scumreading Axelrod, but no response.

Mirhawk: Hate hate hate the response to Amihan's gambit.

Swordsworth: Hate his response about as much, but he has contributed less, so I'm willing to back away from him now on the expectation that there is more to come.


Assume everyone else is null at this point.

[Mirhawk]

@Cerb
What would I stand to gain from that scenario?

[Mirhawk]

Lining up lynches? Seriously?

I never said any of this back

when I was actually voting pistachion

.

A thing which I am no longer doing by the way.

How on earth would I be lining up lynches now?

[Mirhawk]

@Cerb
What would I stand to gain from that scenario?

There is nothing for you to gain in any of these scenarios. This isn't an accusation of you having a scum agenda which that interaction revealed. I'm not laying out a plot revealed through a mistake you made. This is about the hint of knowledge which you would not have if town, actions taken because of that knowledge, and contradictions between your expressed thoughts at the time and the way you behaved.

pedit: Yes, what Sakura said. I haven't actually looked at your iso yet Mirhawk, I JUST read the game, but I know the things you were/are saying just don't make sense coming from someone who sincerely believed that the counterclaim was a lie, and if you DIDN'T sincerely believe it was a lie, then why are you lying about that?

Except there isn't actually any knowledge there that the rest of the town DOESN'T ALREADY HAVE.

You're taking information that every person in the town had and are ascribing a scum motivation to it.

Could you point out where I lied because I literally have no idea what you think I lied about.

Pedit.
Ugh I'm responding to these one by one.

[Mirhawk]

But guys Swordsworth and Skybird are scummier

As much as I don't have a read on Skybird a Sword lynch is 10x better than Mirhawk one.

A Seniors lynch is by far the best lynch all around though.

Skybird is okay, but swords is a bad lynch.

Seniors is unlikely to happen.

[Mirhawk]

Cerb explained it, I just gave it a name. By implying that one of them had to be lying, ergo, they were scum, you can easily lynch the one that claimed first and if they flip miller you could lynch the 2nd one for lying, that's called lining up lynches, when you know neither of the 2 are in your team. Look at the bolded

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.

I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

Here you're getting ready for a pistachion town flip and to use it as "told you guys that ami was scum counterclaiming" to lynch Ami the next day.

P-Edit: I could go back to Sword if you guys prefer to go that way, both of them are scum anyway.

And the town version of this would be pre-associative flips. They're exactly the same thing only apparently one is a scumtell and the other isn't.

Despite the fact that they're done all the time by loads of people of either alignment.

[Mirhawk]

Mirhawk: why were you concerned with flipping one or both of them, if you sincerely believed the counterclaim to be fake?

I didn't think the counterclaim was fake until later.

The turning point would be the post where I asked Ami if she was Salamance in disguise.

[Mirhawk]

Why is Swords a bad lynch?

862

[Mirhawk]

Mirhawk, it is perfectly reasonable for town!Mirhawk to have looked at the situation and come to the conclusion that one of the two claims is likely fake. Your CERTAINTY of that, though, was far greater than an uninformed slot SHOULD have had. Perhaps you're just confident, but that confidence looks like the sort of confidence a scum slot can have when they "fight" against a mislynch because they KNOW the person is town.

Do you follow that?

Alright, now the lying idea. If you believed that there was truly no counterclaim to pistachion's claim, why did you vote for her? Your response to this was that you figured the only way to sort out whether the counterclaim was true or not was to flip one or both of those slots claiming miller. Your response does NOT address the question. You were confident it was a fake counterclaim. There is no reason to vote pistachion, or to attempt to flip EITHER party on the basis of that alone. Therefore, either you are lying about your belief that it was fake at that time, OR you are lying about what your reason was for continuing to vote pistachion.

If there's another explanation, I would be glad to hear it.

Except my certainty wasn't uninformed. It was because Ami kept dodging the question every time someone asked her if she was a Miller or not.

I voted for pistachio because at the time I did think it was a legit counterclaim. It wasn't until several posts later that I changed my mind.

This is all stuff that's in the thread. Hell in the last three pages even. I get that you haven't read the whole thread yet but its kind of annoying me that you're demanding answers to things I just said.

[Mirhawk]

I've read the whole thread Mirhawk. Your point about Ami "dodging" is terrible. Her counterclaim was clear, there is no universe in which she could get away with saying "naw guys, you misunderstood me, I NEVER said i was a miller".

If her counterclaim is so fucking clear then at what point did she lie about her role?

She didn't. It never happened.

I'm assuming she was worried that someone here thought that lynch all liars isn't stupid, but the point is it stood out to me.

Whats next? are you going to claim town players can't notice things like that?

[Mirhawk]

No, I actually did dodge it, and then disappeared when pressed again. Mirhawk already pointed this out when he returned afterward.

THANK YOU.

God this makes me feel so much better.

[Mirhawk]

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

[Mirhawk]

@Cerb
It's not sophistry, your arguments are all just terrible.

If you want to drop it that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion, even if I think its dumb.

Also I apologize for my attitude. I was getting kind of worked up at the end there.

@Skybird
There's tons of reasons really, there aren't really any rules as to how I sort them. This is just how I associate players.

[Mirhawk]

Picked up on something else that bothered me that I forgot to mention last night: when did Amihan and TWL end up in your scum pool and why? There's not really anything in your posts about why you were scum reading either of them.

Ami's only in the pool because I'm paranoid about the miller gambit. I actually find her play kind of town.

The Wrong Lynch has been in my pool for a long time, I've just don't talk about it. I found some of their early - mid stuff poorly justified or opportunistic or something like that. Nothing they've said since has made me consider moving them out of it though. Their posts don't feel like they're trying to find anything, more like they're trying to look involved.

[Mirhawk]

Why? What do you think of them?

[Mirhawk]

I'm going to jump on the Mirhawk wagon.

I was reluctant because I thought some of his earliest posts had good content and I had mixed feelings about his reaction to Ami's gambit. I don't like his recent posts, though:

First off I promised to point out why I think dav's scum.

First off read his iso. Everything until he places his first vote is sidelong comments on other wagons. Half of that is throwing shade with no votes cast.

This is a reach, it also describes the playstyle of Mirhawk himself--he's been making a lot of comments on other wagons.

852 reads like he's trying to get credit for being skeptical/contrarian without backing it up at all.

re 858 why is it horseshit? The post he's responding to is spot-on. And instead of defending himself, he dismisses it.

A lot of his reactions to statements he disagrees with are just "no." Drive by sniping is right.

Ami's only in the pool because I'm paranoid about the miller gambit. I actually find her play kind of town.

?????

You literally ISO'ed me and picked at a bunch of random shit nobody had mentioned yet. Despite the effort into making the post it feels super lazy as well. I don't think you looked very closely at the posts I was responding to, which if you had a problem with my responses you should have.

Me and Dav's playstyles are pretty different seeing as how I've been calling half the town scum, whereas Dav still hasn't gotten around to calling me scum despite voting me all game. Lots of people have commented on multiple wagons, does that mean we all have the same playstyle? I feel like you only brought this up to pad your case.

How could I get town credit for 852? In order to get credit for being skeptical of someones opinion I would need the subject of that opinion to die and flip. If you'd actually bothered reading the post I was complaining about you would have known that piper was talking about me. Was my plan to get town credit after I was dead or something?

I also would have assumed you would notice that TWL's post that 858 is talking about my early game. I mean are actually agreeing that my early interactions with Dav were a drive by? Or that despite the fact that it was a drive by they still managed to be really good questions? Or that despite the fact that they were really good questions, they weren't connected to the game? You tried to twist this into being about my later posts, and all the power to you on that. But my problem was the early game bit.

I also note that despite saying you're jumping on my wagon, you.... didn't?

[Mirhawk]

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

Do you really think associative tells are a reliable way to hunt for scum on day 1 of a 21 player game?

Do you think that's what I was doing?

[Mirhawk]

I'm pretty sure you're like....the only person scumreading The Wrong Lynch so you're gonna need to explain this more.

Like I said, they're around a lot but don't really seem to be looking for scum. More like they're trying to look involved. Mala more so then GM. They don't appear to have any other scumreads than me and (maybe?) FS. I'm not even sure if they actually think FS is scum or if they're saying he's scum if I flip scum.

There's a bunch of stuff in individual posts that I don't like either, but it's mostly smaller stuff and is admittedly kind of omgusy.

[Mirhawk]

You literally ISO'ed me and picked at a bunch of random shit nobody had mentioned yet.

Why is coming up with your own original points against somebody instead of regurgitating other people's arguments a scumtell?

(I won't comment on the rest right now because I don't want to get between you two but this jumped out at me.)

It isn't unless you're only doing it to make it look like you have a good reason to be on a wagon when you really don't.

Town do it too, but for a different reason. For them it would be because of confirmation bias.

[Mirhawk]

In separate news, I'm not seeing anything town from Dramonic. Is this normal for him?

Repeating question since I didn't see much response to it. I think Dramonic is scum flying under the radar, but I don't know if this is normal for him.
Scum reads with no apparent reasons, avoiding big wagons, not addressing the topics of the day -> classic active lurking scum mode, IMO.
VOTE: Dramonic

Please discuss.

Drams fine.

All the things you're accusing him of are things town do too.

[Mirhawk]

also this is terrible
if you think someone is legitimately scum then you go for it, that's the best case scenario, not "lynching someone you kinda think is scum but hoping for that information"
this is a horrible reason to defend swordsworth and the accusations

That's your opinion I guess.

It's not like there's only one scum though.

[Mirhawk]

Snarky do something

Sigh

[Mirhawk]

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

Do you have ideas yet about who are tiptoeing around this lynch or is that still a work in progress?

I would have to go back and ISO/investigate Seniors and I've just finished with the davesaz read and mental-flavour-rolling.
My next thing to do was look back at Skybird but I tend to spend so much time thinking that I was almost going to be lazy about the whole thing and cook dinner instead.

I tend to think about games I'm playing while making dinner/taking shower/getting groceries/etc. Sometimes stepping away for a bit helps me clear my head and see something I wasn't seeing earlier. Have a good supper.

My thoughts there primarily are the fact that by the time I voted I think there were only 2 votes on the wagon. But I'm almost positive more people had voted or expressed interest and and then moved away before that.

This is correct; if every player who had expressed suspicion of or willingness to vote Seniors were actually voting them, they would have already been lynched with 12 votes quite some time ago.

It's almost like when you get those early wagons that are guaranteed to go nowhere? Even though my vote on Seniors is stale, I don't have a read on them right now.

What are you thinking about that early activity and the way the wagon shaped itself? If anything.

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts and I'm not sure which is correct, but some of them are (off the top of my head so some numbers may be somewhat off)

I don't think there were ever more than 4-5 votes on Seniors at a time, but a lot more people were willing to vote them. If Seniors are scum, I'd look for more scum in the people who were willing to vote without voting.

I simultaneously don't think that beeboy is bussing Seniors (because I've been townreading beeboy) and think that early game wagons are unlikely to go through especially in a game of this size, especially when the wagon starts in post 6. It's rare to get a wagon of lynch momentum going in RVS, though beeboy tried very hard. Generally the first few wagons of the day are safe because people will decide okay we've had our fun RVS wagon now let's move elsewhere and then wagon a few more people before finally lynching somebody else entirely. As such, if beeboy

were

bussing, that'd be a pretty clever move because no matter how hard he pushes it, it's almost certainly not going to go through.

In my first scumgame, I spent 54 pages death tunnelling my buddy who was obvscum and town wouldn't lynch him because they thought it was a TvT. Cakez was saying something about him and beeboy doing scum theatre all game long in Borderlands and I might want to read that later if I have time but my ability to pay attention to anything at length is impaired right now.

I don't think beeboy is scum, though.

Goodmorning's comments about Friendless Seniors and A Midsummer Night's Dream are also sticking with me. I was just spectating that game and I didn't scumread them; they were slippery and my eyes would slide off of them and kept looking elsewhere, but I think she's picking up on something I'm not.

Some things Cakez has said recently have made me want to take a hard look at his ISO; I might have townread him too easily.

I'm only scumreading a couple of the people who were willing to vote Seniors: tictac and Swordsworth. A bunch of my null reads are in there too, though.


I think the lynch of the day is going to be between Seniors, Swordsworth, and Mirhawk. Almost everybody is willing to vote Swordsworth but 0 people are actually voting him, but we'll see what happens with the replacement.

What do you think of Mirhawk?


pedit:

Reading Seniors' ISO has been like gargling liquid PCP and just falling short of swallowing the whole mouthful.
I'm struggling to figure out if that comes from town or if it's a caricature of what town behaviour is supposed to be.

lol

ugh, Agreement.

[Mirhawk]

No specific part, more like the whole thing in general. The bit about how the day is going to end seemed particularly spot on to me.

The bits that have to do with meta don't really apply, and I'm not really scumreading tictac so much as I forgot he was in the game.

[Mirhawk]

I'm pretty sure you're like....the only person scumreading The Wrong Lynch so you're gonna need to explain this more.

Like I said, they're around a lot but don't really seem to be looking for scum. More like they're trying to look involved. Mala more so then GM. They don't appear to have any other scumreads than me and (maybe?) FS. I'm not even sure if they actually think FS is scum or if they're saying he's scum if I flip scum.

There's a bunch of stuff in individual posts that I don't like either, but it's mostly smaller stuff and is admittedly kind of omgusy.

Can you quote some examples of this? I'm not seeing it tbh.

Which part do you want examples of?

[Mirhawk]

It definitely depends on how they presented their argument for not lynching. In Mirhawk's case, there's a legitimate fear that it comes from knowledge town doesn't have. In that case, definitely not giving towncred. There's not a binary answer to this.

OMFG this is so stupid.

I don't care if you think I'm scum because my vote switch sounded fake or contrived.
But every person who thinks there was some kind of information scum would have that town wouldn't in this situation is talking out of their ass.

Unvote

This is obviously not happening.

I'm not inclined to believe that replacing out is alignment indicative, though ironically enough in the last three games I've played there have been six scum replace outs.

[Mirhawk]

Ah, that's fine actually. I thought this was more of that business where I knew it was a gambit because I'm scum.

[Mirhawk]

Vote:Skybird

[Mirhawk]

In case anyone's wondering, this is the only existing wagon which I'm comfortable with.

Every other one sucks. Except MAYBE pistachion.

[Mirhawk]

Shouldn't you be voting me instead of your vanity wagon on dramonic?

[Mirhawk]

Wait nevermind, that's dav.

I'll still stand by that remark though.

[Mirhawk]

@Cakes
I get what you're saying, but if replacing out was a sure scumtell people would have figured that out a long time ago.

For me a vanity wagon doesn't have to be a one vote wagon. It's more if the person is ignoring a more viable wagon to be on one with low chances of going through.

[Mirhawk]

I don't think dramonic is particularly scummy, and I certainly don't see his lynch going through today.

At the time when I made that post I was thinking your vote should be on me. Now I don't know, but I still think it's wasted on dramonic.

[Mirhawk]

Podo what do you think of skybird?

I really don't like the whole dropping his RVS vote 1000 posts into the game to start doing serious scumhunting, then the the first thing he does is ask Snarky (of all people) a question about something he said 1000 posts ago.

Too scummy to be scum is stupid, but I mean that's ridiculous.

[Mirhawk]

Do you think he was legit expecting an answer from snarky?

I can't see how he would actually think he would get one. I mean, I'm under the impression that he's actually reading the game (unlike the impression I get from snarky), so why would he think snarky would answer.

[Mirhawk]

Whoops, skybirds a lady.

[Mirhawk]

Mirhawk, I'm re-reading the thread and working through ISO's. That's why you see the question to snarky.

And I never said I was good at this game. I just enjoy playing it.

That's another thing, I don't really believe that.

You said you were doing ISO's four days ago, but I haven't seen any evidence of a person reading through ISO's since then.

Every single thing you mention in every post appears to be something that has happened within the last two or three pages, and its never concerning the same player consecutively.

The only thing I could believe is ISO related is your comment to Snarky. Which brings up the question of why did you start with him of all people.

I don't consider myself to be particularly good either. I'm cool with most players play so long as they're trying to have a good time. Doesn't mean I won't call random stuff scummy though.

[Mirhawk]

Yuck, bad word choice. Should have proofread that one.

[Mirhawk]

Mirhawk, in post 345 was a question to Sakura asking her thoughts on TWL and Dave. She responded to you immediately after in post 346. You say nothing in response. In post 878 you respond to Spiffeh calling TWL town with a no. Ten posts later you tell Spiffeh to quit townreading scum. If you are scum reading TWL why haven't you voted for them? Further, why aren't you pushing them?

p-edit: bad podo.

Is anyone aside from me even scumreading TWL? Seems like a waste of time.

[Mirhawk]

Are you looking for validation?

Are you looking for a reason to call this scummy?

[Mirhawk]

Lol sure. I'm not the one who you're going to have to justify this to later anyhow. I already think you're scum.

[Mirhawk]

By the way, will switch to Mirhawk if there's more votes there, if that wasn't obvious.

Around now is probably a good time to begin consolidating our lynch. It should be one of those two, but we need to make up our minds as to which.

Yuck no. You aren't nearly town enough to tell us who the lynch pool is.

Aren't you supposed to be on my wagon? Or are you just staying on seniors to make sure the skybird wagon isn't bigger than it?

[Mirhawk]

How much of your scum read(because this is CLEARLY a scum read being expressed) on ranger comes from her scum read on you, and how much from evaluating her play? In short, what part of her play do you find scummy?

I think Ranger is being manipulative to get who she wants lynched. This isn't even my problem with Ranger, as town do this too.

She's slotted every person into what appears to be a fairly solid read with little to no justification for almost any of them.

The only justified reads are (conveniently) the ones that happen to be her highest scumreads once she's caught up, which also (conveniently) happen to be two of the biggest wagons.

The whole thing looks fake to be honest. Kind of like the final reads were decided on before she even started.

[Mirhawk]

Oh and shes scumreading my meta when she hasn't seen my town game. Nuts to that.

[Mirhawk]

Also where the heck is TWL?

I haven't seen anything of substance from them since 751.

[Mirhawk]

The accusation that she's voting a certain way specifically to ensure the skybird wagon doesn't have more votes than the FS wagon is dumb. Neither wagon has enough votes for them to be at a tipping point, and voting in that fashion isn't alignment indicative. I'd be more inclined to think that if she has indicated a greater desire to lynch you than FS(which I dont' think she has) but she is voting FS, it's to see how people deal with the situation with the various wagons.

She's stated that she will switch to my wagon if it's bigger, and it is. In fact if she switched from seniors wagon to mine it would be three votes higher than seniors, which is a significant amount.
However if she does switch that would make Skybird's wagon bigger than seniors, which is a problem for her since she's suggesting that the only two viable wagons are Seniors and Mine.
Don't get me wrong I have an ulterior motive here too. I don't want to be lynched, and I don't think Seniors is scum, so I'm against discluding Skybirds wagon from contention.

For example, before you made that accusation, i was considering voting skybird SOLELY to see who moved where in response to skybirds wagon taking the lead...but that particular ploy has lost it's value given that you just made scum more wary of individuals watching wagon movements in this situation for that exact reason.

Sorry?

[Mirhawk]

Not me I'm afraid.

[Mirhawk]

lol

[Mirhawk]

Liking the point about Mir being too certain about Amihan gambiting.

[Mirhawk]

I'm sure you can figure it out, it's not that complicated.

Is there a point to this line of questioning?

[Mirhawk]

I'm skeptical, but why not. There's little point in voting for you when I doubt a wagon on you would go through today. Not to mention you're one of my weaker reads.

@Sakura
Why is there no justification for her Spiffeh and True Ogre scumreads, but there is for me and Seniors.

It doesn't feel preplanned to you?

[Mirhawk]

For instance, a lynch on Mirhawk will elevate Amihan and pistachi0n to truly-confirmed-town, among others. It also would reveal many of the strong Mirhawk pushers as being town. (I'd have to skim to name them all and why they're not bussing.)

I could MAYBE see an argument for me flipping scum making Ami town, but Pistachion? No way.
Also what strong Mirhawk pushers? Most of the people voting for me are voting for "reasons", and not a single person on my wagon is trying to convince others to vote for me.

I think Ranger is being manipulative to get who she wants lynched.

If by manipulative, you mean being completely and entirely blunt and unsubtle about who I want lynched and pushing them hard? Then, yes. There is zero ambiguity; I want one of {Mirhawk, Friendless Seniors} lynched.

No, by manipulative I meant that you deliberately left Skybird out of the lynch pool to try and make people think he wasn't a viable lynch. I don't know why I'm even bothering to answer this, you know what you did.

I'll be honest, I started to townread Mirhawk after this. He saw a flaw in logic, was calling people on it, and then when I explained my logic, and he didn't see a flaw in it, he conceded that I had a fair argument. I don't see town bending like that.

lolwut

Ok ya Seniors is still scum. Mirhawk has just kind of vanished too.

I've only been gone for 18 hours, most of which was overnight. Why did you bring this up? Do you want something in particular?

[Mirhawk]

@Renger
That's your opinion maybe.

@Spiffeh
I dunno, Ranger trying to divert us off Skybird makes me like her as scum more.

[Mirhawk]

Mirhawk wanna vote Cakez?

A bit, but I'm resisting the urge.

[Mirhawk]

I dunno, I've never really felt Seniors as scum.

They seem to be saying whatever they want to say without thinking about it too much. I've always associated that with town.

[Mirhawk]

Unvote
Vote: Sircakez

I was thinking this couldn't happen, but now I'm thinking maybe I was wrong.

I just got back from the hockey game. 5-0, it was brutal.

[Mirhawk]

@Podo
Cakes is scum because he isn't looking for scum, rather he's coasting and has been doing so for most of the game.

In the last game I played with him (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65594) he actively scumhunted constantly, in this one he vote parked on me over a thousand posts ago and hasn't done much of anything since.

How much time does he spend pushing the scumread he's had all game? Almost none. He doesn't analyze any of my posts and the extent of him pushing my wagon consists of him occasionally reminding people that he thinks I'm scum.

Also his reaction to Rangers readslist was outrageously fake.

That's why I'm voting for him at least. Not really sure as to the reasons for the other ones.

[Mirhawk]

SirCakez is definitely town.

What? Hell no.

He parked on the easiest wagon that required the least justification and never left.

Seriously, go read his ISO. Try to find justification for his vote. When I pressed him on it he offered up some gibberish reasons, then stopped responding to me.

There's lots going on in town. There's no way that he hasn't found anything stronger than that in all this time. It's not like he isn't here, he's had a hundred posts since then.

[Mirhawk]

I have a lot of big concerns, don't try to make that out to be the only one.

Incidentally, TWL is also probably scum.

[Mirhawk]

@Ami
Screw you, seriously.

[Mirhawk]

I mean honestly.

I'm the one fighting you on Ranger? I brought up most of the initial points against her.

I'm distracting people from Skybird? I spent two days trying to keep that wagon from being pushed aside by Ranger.

If you have reservations about Cakez that's fine, but trying to guilt me into changing my vote is only going to piss me off.

[Mirhawk]

@Ami
Sorry for losing my cool. Your comment made me think you were saying it was my fault Skybird and Ranger weren't going anywhere and that pissed me off.

My read on Cakez is recent. I only really started thinking about him when Spiffah asked me to vote him a few pages ago. I did a quick read on his ISO and realized that he did a lot less scumhunting than I expected. I checked another couple games for comparison and decided he was scum. Do you have a problem with my case on him other then the way I brought it up? Because I'm seriously finding him the scummiest person in town at the moment.

I'm down with Ranger, I don't know how you got the impression that I wasn't.

[Mirhawk]

@Ranger
Skybird was viable until you torpedoed it.

Your continued insistence that the only viable lynches are the ones you want is scummy.
If they were actually that viable surely you would have been able to get some traction on them by now.
I think the only reason you're still insisting on them is because you don't want to be seen backing down.

[Mirhawk]

Unvote
Vote: Ranger

[Mirhawk]

Look at the scum following the wagons everywhere. Seniors is doing the exact same thing.

So you think Seniors is scum too? Why aren't you voting for him, its the bigger wagon.

Are you afraid you'll have to justify a scumread?

[Mirhawk]

Okay come on guys, Cakes is scum. Those cases on me and Seniors both suck fiercely.

He literally just skimmed both our ISO's looking for things he could put a bad spin on.

If all those posts were so bad why didn't he say anything about them back when they were made?
Simple, he was comfortable sitting on a wagon that no one was asking him to justify so he felt no pressure to actually scumhunt.

This is of course ignoring the fact that his case on me is chock full of useless/misrepresented/wrong information.

[Mirhawk]

Tictac is literally such a compromise I don't even want to consider it.

[Mirhawk]

So, why is Ranger scum?

I actually had a townread on you at one point. Now every time you post I cringe.

I know you know why Rangers being scumread because you've commented on it before.

Your posts get shorter and have less substance the longer the game goes on, are you even reading the game?

[Mirhawk]

I like how they are actually interacting with me, a main accuser of theirs, and trying to show how the case I made was wrong while Mirhawk just went "Cakez is obvscum his case on me sucks!".

If someone who's not you want to know why its so bad I'd be more willing to entertain this, but would I waste my time talking to you about it.

[Mirhawk]

OMG grammar.

[Mirhawk]

Are you scumreading Pistachi0n for more than miller claim?

The miller claim isn't even a part of my scumread.

I find her opportunistic in general.
I think some of the questions she asked were only asked so she didn't have to outright admit that she was prod dodging.
She defended both Swordworth and Ranger. Which I admit is based really on Rangers alignment, but still.

[Mirhawk]

Mirhawk being a hard Ranger pusher but being so hesitant to join that wagon also gives me pause.

I'm scum so me not voting for her makes her town? Am I reading this right?

Also didn't you just accuse me of moving my vote around too easily?

[Mirhawk]

-Recent votes have just been following wherever other people go and he's not voting anyone until at least two other people go there first.

Yes...

[Mirhawk]

Town reads on Sakura Hana and TWL are completely gone though

Like their play as it gets down to the wire here is really not ok

+1

[Mirhawk]

@Cakez
Opinion?

@Spiffah
I don't really think either of them is going to catch up before the deadline.

[Mirhawk]

What? No.

I mean that's your opinion, but I don't really agree with it.

[Mirhawk]

Why should they be doing further digging? If I feel good about the top two wagons being scum then I'm probably pretty happy with where the town is going in general so digging elsewhere doesn't make sense.

I'm kind of the opinion that they haven't done enough on the scumreads they're pushing.

[Mirhawk]

Ew

[Mirhawk]

Why?

I'm not willing to go into it. You either get it or you don't.

[Mirhawk]

Sakura Hana going to untouchable town

What the hell? Why?

Fruit Vendor isn't just conformable, it's EXTREMELY conformable.

Switch to Ranger.

[Mirhawk]

Oh right I was going to comment on that.

Because Ranger finds shitty play town.

[Mirhawk]

What no, I'm talking about Sakura. I think.

The person receiving the "fruit" is informed they received it. Thus you can confirm that that is indeed what his role is. The only way it's a safeclaim is if they actually are a fruit vendor.

[Mirhawk]

I agree that there COULD be a scum fruit vendor. But has anyone here ever actually seen one?

[Mirhawk]

No I'm talking about odds.

Fruit Vendors might be scum occasionally, but they are far more often town.

If he is a fruit vendor, he's simply more likely to be one as town.

[Mirhawk]

So your solution is to say Seniors is fakeclaiming without placing a vote so you can wait for someone else to come in and validate that for you?

I agree with Seniors, that's scummy.

[Mirhawk]

Well I guess you're not saying he's fakeclaiming per say. But my argument stands.

[Mirhawk]

Ranger is not town.

Theoretically I would go for either Cakez or Skybird, but I'm not going to because 11 votes in five hours isn't going to happen.

[Mirhawk]

@Spiffah
By my count both FS and Ranger are at 8 votes.

Also I agree with everything in 2125.

[Mirhawk]

Tammy in particular I'm disappointed in in that group.

[Mirhawk]

lol

[Mirhawk]

Cerberus stop arguing about stupid unrelated shit.

Almost everyone overstates their scumreads.

How the fuck would you ever get anyone to vote with you if the most anyone ever said was "I think maybe that person could be scum".

[Mirhawk]

idk, we've got like 6 people who have checked in in the last hour. that's half of a wagon.

You forgot to subtract the people who actually think Ranger's scum.

[Mirhawk]

So apparently you've never ever voted for a mislynch? Because unless that's the case then obviously you don't always build rock fucking solid cases.

There's sixteen odd people who apparently do have opinions on the people being voted.

But apparently your thinking fuck them all, my opinions are better then theirs so I'm going to push it to a no lynch.

[Mirhawk]

Pick a fucking side.

[Mirhawk]

You're horrible.

Without a lynch day two is just going to be day one part two. We still won't have any real information.

Also, Seniors has a confirmable role, so it's not going to instantly rebound onto him.

[Mirhawk]

So you're okay with it as long as someone other than you does it?

Also, you're here now. Waiting for others who may or may not show up is stupid.

[Mirhawk]

That it's partly everybody's fault does not make the fact that it's partly your fault any better.

Move your vote over to No Lynch, because at this point it's obvious what you're advocating.

[Mirhawk]

Tammys 1997 was fucking horrible, and if she doesn't show up before the end of the day to do something I'm absolutely going to scumread her.

[Mirhawk]

Oh no whatever shall I do??????

Anything other than what you've been doing so far would be nice.

[Mirhawk]

I'll get right on that.

[Mirhawk]

FS claimed fruit vendor which is, you know, super confirmable.

[Mirhawk]

Scum Fruit Vendors aren't exactly common.

[Mirhawk]

I'll admit I haven't seen a ton of fruit vendors period. But I still don't think I'm off base in saying they're more common as town.

pedit:
Pretty sure pistachion never claimed flavor.

[Mirhawk]

My worry really was that nobody was going to show up except for people already on a wagon, or people who wouldn't switch wagons.

[Mirhawk]

Stop talking about Tictac. Nobody cares.

[Mirhawk]

I keep saying that.

[Mirhawk]

Why would I push you? I have other scumreads that people actually agree with.

[Mirhawk]

Also, don't get too bigheaded. You're not my strongest scumread. That privilege belongs to Cakez.

[Mirhawk]

Is there something wrong with convenience? Are you suggesting I should be putting my efforts into my scumreads that are hardest to get agreement on.

Why are you even focusing on this, it has nothing to do with what's currently going on.

[Mirhawk]

And it's unlikely for town to do this because....

Also, when I ask why you're focusing on this what I really mean is why aren't you focusing on the Ranger/Seniors thing?

[Mirhawk]

I am 100% okay with lynching Ranger to sort other people.

I'm looking to justify my Skybird read this way in fact.

[Mirhawk]

I think it's still L-2 so we're not in hammertown yet.

[Mirhawk]

The quick summary is Seniors claimed fruit vendor and Rangers L-1.

[Mirhawk]

Most of the rest of it is growly talk.

[Mirhawk]

Somebody vig him.

[Mirhawk]

Him too.

[Mirhawk]

Ranger deliberately derailed your wagon.

I've only said it like ten times.

[Mirhawk]

I got wigged last night. So there's seniors action.

I'm down with Pistachion and TWL.

I admittedly haven't spent a great deal of attention on Axel or Tictac.

[Mirhawk]

I have a question about that actually.

Did gm give some kind of notice that they were going to have limited access or something.

Yesterday when I pointed out that TWL was absent Piper jumped down my throat.

I understand that mala's busy, but is there a reason gm is never here that I missed?

[Mirhawk]

Probably cause no one would kill me.

[Mirhawk]

Hrm, I read Tac's Iso.

Pretty lurky, but nothing stands out to me as particularly scummy.

What in particular looks scummy to you?

[Mirhawk]

All his posts feel like catchup posts to me. I'm not really feeling the tone of his posts as scum.

Pedit
lol

[Mirhawk]

I still kind of think Seniors is town.

Which means every major wagon yesterday was on a town player. (open to debate if you're not me)

I'm thinking scum are going to be in players who weren't trying too hard to look for scum outside the major wagons. Or players who were trying to look involved without changing the gamestate.

I may be biased in this though as it fits fairly well with most of my existing reads. I'm still going to look into it some more though.

[Mirhawk]

The Wrong Lynch has been in my pool for a long time, I've just don't talk about it. I found some of their early - mid stuff poorly justified or opportunistic or something like that. Nothing they've said since has made me consider moving them out of it though. Their posts don't feel like they're trying to find anything, more like they're trying to look involved.

This still sums up my opinion on TWL.

[Mirhawk]

(Interested)

I'll have more time tomorrow, maybe I'll actually do something.

[Mirhawk]

Tictac feels like lynchbait to me.

She's lurky and doesn't look to be trying very hard, but I don't see the scum.

[Mirhawk]

I should have known, I never do anything useful on the weekends.

I was scumreading Pistachion already anyways.

Vote: Pistachion

I'm still scumreading Cakes and TWL.
The short version is that I think both of them have been tying to look involved rather then hunting scum.
There's more to it then that, especially in Cakez's case. But that's the gist of what I'm thinking.

[Mirhawk]

Curious, did you put that wig on your avatar yourself, or did the mod. actually provide you with that?

As awesome as it would be if Seniors had a role that forced people to change their avatar with wigged versions I must admit to doing it myself.

It just seemed like the right thing to do.

[Mirhawk]

(Interested)

I'll have more time tomorrow, maybe I'll actually do something.

Sigh

I'm not trying to be a dick here but you had time to open the thread, read it, pick out my post, and respond. And yet you didn't have the time in include anything of substance.

[Mirhawk]

Unvote

lol

[Mirhawk]

I find the situation funny in general. The wagon built fast, and it's going to come apart just as fast.

I'm intensely curious as to how you knew there was more to his role though. I've been thinking about it and I can't think of anything that makes sense.

@Pistachion
Are you actually a miller in addition to an Innocent Child? Or was that a smokescreen?

[Mirhawk]

I claimed an investigative role. I didn't get the result I expected.

Why are you finding wagons building and dissolving funny? Is this generally your attitude as town?

I found the speed with which Pistachion shut the wagon down amusing.

I think I'm more relaxed as town then as scum, so sure I guess. Personally I find myself to have too much of a stick up my butt as scum to find anything funny. This is also (for the record) a silly question. If I was scum I wouldn't answer it honestly anyways.

The reason I ask about your role is that the only thing that makes sense to me is a rolecop. But if that was the case why would you have drug him out into admitting his role in front of everyone.

[Mirhawk]

I happen to like Axels VCA as it pretty closely mirrors my thoughts on all the votes.

@Cakez
The entirety of my response to the wagon was "lol" so I'm not sure why you're picking Skybird over me. Pretty sure you're already scumreading me too.

Vote: Cakez

[Mirhawk]

Eh that's acceptable. Truth be told that's what I thought you would say anyways.

[Mirhawk]

Why did you do so little scumhunting say one.

You gave me an answer before, something about the game being too fluid or stale or something like that, bit I don't believe it really.

You posted a LOT day one. I have trouble believing you were having a hard time finding scumreads.

[Mirhawk]

No, it's gotta be rolecop. I'm betting Pistachions role (miller+IC) has a nonstandard name.

[Mirhawk]

VOTE: The Wrong Lynch
Do something please

I liked TWL earlier on but now they are doing 0 things to scumhunt which is bad.

What about TWL's early play did you like? I thought it was pretty bad myself.

You being on this makes me feel kind of gross. I like pushing TWL, but I don't like you doing it.

I also asked you about your day one play, I don't really want to hunt down the post with your excuse for poor scumhunting, but I still want a better explanation.

Can it with the PR speculation.

No need for platitudes. It's a valid line of inquiry.

What role could have divined that part of pistachion's role was more than just a Miller, such that pistachion was still votable? As in, it's not a Rolecop, Tracker, Cop, or a role of that sort. It's partially curiosity, but more than that, it just doesn't add up to me.

My strongest scumread is still Skybird - who just jumped in, quoted the mod innocent, and unvoted (again, scum just doing the bare minimum to try and look town, with no trajectory of other reads or where to revote).

I somewhat agree with this, the cats already out of the bag so to speak. The instant Ogre mentioned that he had a result on Pistachion it was already immediately apparent he was an investigative role of some sort.

I was initially suspicious of his motivations which is why I initially pressed him on it. Seeing as how as a cop he shouldn't have investigated her, and as a rolecop he should have known better than to out her. Then it occurred to me that he was probably a role cop, and Pistachion likely has a nonstandard role name.

Ogre might want to keep it in the bag to keep people guessing, but unless one of them says something different that's going to be my assumption.

[Mirhawk]

Beeboy WAS obvtown Day one. So was Ogre.

[Mirhawk]

For the record, I also dislike the fact that a day before the deadline Cakez changed his read on Seniors from scum to town.

Or why he still hasn't explained why he's so convinced Tictac's scum.

Or why he still isn't pushing for a lynch on me.