A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[True Ogre]

True Ogre exists.

Witholding vote for now, not convinced that major conversationalists contain scum.

However Seniors could certainly be scum with what they've said so far and I like beeboy for the push. So I'm conflicted as I don't really buy the Sakura-scum argument but will entertain it.

Like Wrong Lynch's posting quantity so far, but the quality is lukewarm. Also waiting to see more from nacho-hydra, although I like the question he did ask.

Axelrod also involved in hydra-discussion after some comments in 56, 61, 68 which appear quite defensive/elusive. Keeping an eye on.

Skybird, greetings to your ancestors. What do you think of davesaz' posting so far? I would like to compare impressions.

[True Ogre]

VOTE: Friendless Seniors

[True Ogre]

I've played one or two games with Dave but not too recently. I liked his entrance. He jumped in and questioned something he saw. I also agreed with post 90 where he saw BeeBoy's buddy question as a potential trap. I read it the same way. Overall I'm leaning town on him. How about you? What do you think? Any players that stick out good or bad?

I was of a similar impression. His entrance generally felt awkward-ish but had the feeling of wanting to "do stuff" which from my limited interdimensional experience with him seemed town.

As far as other folks go then, I'd be delighted for you to nominate a person to have a take on, otherwise what do you think of the Nacho/Plot hydra? I like Nacho's follow-ups but don't feel like I could read Plotinus if my life depended on it.

Not trying to interfere with your conversation, but this is as good a post as any to use as an entry for my own questions.

Why say this? Why not just ask your questions? Looks like you are trying to step carefully.

I understand this as it was one interpretation that I took from his first few posts also. However I don't think it's scummy.

VOTE: Friendless Seniors

Why not vote anyone in your entrance then immediately sheep Beeboy onto Seniors?

My initial post was actually cross-posted by beeboy. I wanted to see where he was going with the Sakura thing, but in the meantime he decided to back off and go back to Seniors. Seemed consistent to me and since Seniors were my stongest scumlean at the time a vote on them (and a sheep of beeboy) didn't pose a problem, and still doesn't.

[True Ogre]

Hello all.

beeboy Seniors read is exaggerated to the point that I don't think it's even supposed to look real. Crosses over into not alignment indicative.
Ogre sheeping it looks scummy, especially since Ogre is pretty new.
@Ogre What was your motivation to do so?

Agree that the beeboy Sakura dip was waffly.

Mmm-mmm.
Seniors read seems to be a tell that beeboy is convinced of. I don't have any reason to think it's not true and their posting seems overly neutral. Like far more so than what you're calling waffly.

"Ogre is pretty new" is factually incorrect and I'm concerned that you throw in that statement as some kind of padding for "sheeping looks scummy".
You'll agree then that sheeping looks towny at times. Depending on motication and whether the player is new or knows what they're doing.

So you've decided that because I am new sheeping is scummy, but you don't attempt to figure out whether I am actually new.

*grumbles*

[True Ogre]

You said in your entrance you didn't think anyone warranted a vote thohh.

Yes and I also indicated that I found Seniors scummy. You might want to reread my first post.

[True Ogre]

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

[True Ogre]

I counted your completed games(3). That's new in my books. Are you an alt then?

Would be surpised if there are three completed - I only remember the one.
The problem is you're making the assumption that I'm new without bothering to enquire into things like offsite experience. And a 2014 join date isn't "new". So you obviously had some inclination to look into it, and ended up concluding that sheeping the read at that point was scummy

as I was new

.
Ignoring the fact that my initial post had seniors as a scumread right off the bat and have already explained why I decided to switch from withholding, to sheeping.

So I'm wondering what you're hoping to gain from this line of questioning as I feel I've clarified everything and you're talking in circles.
Do you have a clearer point to make on this topic - or would you like to ask me anything else which might server to better get an accurate read on me?

Also Dave you're not the only one who thought they played with Orge before. The name is familiar to me too.

We've played together before several times. The purpose of alting was to break my own meta and keep myself in line. Give myself a break from same-old.
I'll out myself at some point later if it becomes important but it's not exactly a secret anyway.

On Nacho.

I'm really surprised he's claiming he hasn't followed up on anything yet. Considering this rather large post which begins with this

ALSO HI NACHOOOO. I MISSED YOU TOO AND YOU'RE HYDRA'ING WITH PLOTI SO THIS MAKES ME VERY HAPPEH.

MAAAAALA HI MALA

And which I was hoping was him kicking into gear (and which I was town-nudging him for). I have a fairly specific way of reading him relating to

certain types

of trolling and aggression under pressure. I can't say I've seen it yet but I recognise and appreciate his town-play when it is present.

So this is confusing:

Seeing 17 pages already instills a profound sadness in me that cannot be described. I wanted this to be an exciting and fun game and I know it's obnoxious to complain about number of pages but I probably won't be engaged until the weekend.

I saw someone town reading me because I followed up on something which means that someone probably doesn't know how to tell us apart because I haven't followed up on anything yet.

I'll probably just leave it to evolve for now, but if you have thoughts so far I'm interested to hear them for reference.

Equally - Sakura what are you thinking there? Just a question at this point.

---
Also as a side-note I feel like I'm missing out on a few things - for example the miller-claim evolution - although I am managing to retrospectively keep up.
I think I saw the counterclaim renounced so that's interesting although probably not scummy.

[True Ogre]

I guess the point is I don't have the townlean I hoped was coming. All I have is a couple of frowny faces and one decent question.

Possibly good enough to start with.

[True Ogre]

Tammy is looking town to me.
I don't think I'll be scumreading beeboy anytime soon though.

Seniors I believe is still a good vote despite podo's strange movement and trajectory.
podo I'm a bit confused here. Can you state your Seniors scumread in a sentence or two?

So, I went to look closer at FS and, yeah, this is a truly horrendous series of posts.

I did not like this post at all. Seniors was already being pressured in many ways and to me, what you've done here is switch your trajectory and make a stong post justifying it. Too much.

In your own words and also in a couple of sentences, please sum up why Seniors is scum in this game.

[True Ogre]

EBWOP: @Tammy

I just find all your catch up incredibly underwhelming.

Hm. I disagree and liked the cross-questiong of both you and Seniors.
I don't see why scum-her would play both sides.

[True Ogre]

@True Ogre

Are you feigning an inability to tell us apart in order to keep your main a secret, or for some other reason? I'm not interested in outing you but I do know who you are.

Feigning? Hmmmgrrrhmmmm.

[True Ogre]

Sign your posts and the problem ceases to exist.

[True Ogre]

Post like 582 don't come from Nacho but are Plotinus' bread and butter.
However if Nacho would like to trollfuck the game out with his funtimes pretending to be his partner he's welcome to alienate me. I have an idea of who's writing what but unless each of you want to take credit for what you post I'm going to have a hard time reading you.

I'm also willing to drop it. What are your thoughts on Axel?

[True Ogre]

Dodging the prod for Easter.

[True Ogre]

The trolling I've seen has only ever been scum-aligned. Smiley faces, schmoozing, dancing over the thread and not engaging. I'm taking this most recent with a small grain of salt because obviously when it's pointed out as scummy, a behaviour changes if scum. That said I appreciate your direct engagement.

I'd like to sort Skybird, Axel, davesaz. I'm leaning dave as town, I need more from skybird but she seems relatively genuine and Axel I don't get at all. Dave I'm okay with so far.
Towning Tammy, beeboy, podo, leaning there on pistachion and amian.
Premilimary townreads but these are where I'm at.

tictac and cakez I'm having an issue with as they both seem to be saying *exactly the same thing* with regard to their scumread on me, and I mistook one for the other.

mala I'm going to say seems okay at the moment.

[True Ogre]

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

I now see that I interpreted your first post incorrectly; why did beeboy's Sakura push bother you so much?

So much? No. Interested because I liked Sakura's entrance and also wanting to sort you, which I actually relate to a sakura-town with you in the game? Sure.
I was wondering where beeboy was goint with that push. Came in to give a couple of opinions. Beeboy backed off sakura (who I was happy to see their sort on you).
Shrugged and voted seniors.
However I'm still kind of waiting for sakura's sort on you because I'd like to compare notes.

[True Ogre]

I'm mostly wondering how your uneasiness with beeboy's push on Sakura translated into not wanting to follow beeboy onto Seniors.

beeboy pushes on Seniors.
Reading beeboy as town.
Reading Seniors as potentially scum.
Reading Sakura as town.
beeboy continues to push on seniors but pushes on Sakura.
??? waiting. Post my first post
beeboy retracts push on Sakura. Didn't actually expect that, but it strikes me as town-thinking to change opinion.

Followed beeboy onto seniors, at a whim actually. Liked him, disliked Seniors.

I'm obviously going to need to check out Seniors better than pure sheeping soon. However I'm comfy here right now.

[True Ogre]

If you were in Pistach's shoes, noticed that the person who counterclaimed you posted first without claiming miller (and claiming miller in your first post is site standard), then counterclaimed after you claimed, would you point it out if town? If scum?

If I was in pistach's shoes and was fake-gambitting as town would I go back and check shit out? Sure.
What's your point here.

[True Ogre]

I'm mostly wondering how your uneasiness with beeboy's push on Sakura translated into not wanting to follow beeboy onto Seniors.

And then following? Sorry don't get it.

[True Ogre]

The trolling I've seen has only ever been scum-aligned. Smiley faces, schmoozing, dancing over the thread and not engaging. I'm taking this most recent with a small grain of salt because obviously when it's pointed out as scummy, a behaviour changes if scum. That said I appreciate your direct engagement.

In my opinion, the only one of these things that is actually a scumtell is "not engaging".
I'm interested in who you are because a lot of my recent scumgames have been breaking the meta of "Nacho only trolls as town".

He trolls in *certain ways* when he is scum.
We dont' have enough experience together for it to be worth me saying YAHAHYAH IM CYBERSKELETON or whatever that asshole's name was

[True Ogre]

Nacho really? All I basically want is your true self to shine through. It's fucking demonic when it happens and I don't expect it to have powdered icing sugar on it but I do expect it to be extremely intelligent and open to criticism.

I'm liking it. The plot part in your hydra I don't even based on the engagement we've had so far. That seemed absolutely irrelevant to finding scum. What's your take on Axel. Plot avoided it.

[True Ogre]

I'm mostly wondering how your uneasiness with beeboy's push on Sakura translated into not wanting to follow beeboy onto Seniors.

beeboy pushes on Seniors.
Reading beeboy as town.
Reading Seniors as potentially scum.
Reading Sakura as town.
beeboy continues to push on seniors but pushes on Sakura.
??? waiting. Post my first post
beeboy retracts push on Sakura. Didn't actually expect that, but it strikes me as town-thinking to change opinion.

Followed beeboy onto seniors, at a whim actually. Liked him, disliked Seniors.

I'm obviously going to need to check out Seniors better than pure sheeping soon. However I'm comfy here right now.

It was my understanding that you were thinking of following beeboy onto Seniors but was uncomfortable with doing so because of beeboy's read on Sakura. What did beeboy's read on Sakura have to do with you trusting beeboy's read on Seniors?

I'm sorry waht? Are you having trouble reading my first post and the second post?

[True Ogre]

Egh sorry.
I was reading the thread. Liked beeboy's push. seemed genuine. ISO's Seniors. seemed shitty.
Read a bit more. beeboy changed his vote to Sakura. Huh? Sakura seemed okay. Waiting to see what beeboy followed up with.
Posted. beeboy cross-posted. Changed his mind on the Sakura push. Asked me to sheep him on Seniors.
OK.

[True Ogre]

tictac and cakez I'm having an issue with as they both seem to be saying *exactly the same thing* with regard to their scumread on me, and I mistook one for the other.

You have an issue with us because we're agreeing on a read? What?

You both seem stuck on me saying I'd withold my vote, and then sheeping.
I've seen scum be adamant about stupid technicalities before. It provides a focus. You don't have to evolve if you latch on to an incosistency that isn't actually scummy.

[True Ogre]

Ah.
Thank you, that makes sense and answers my question.

I have no idea which of you posted this.
Thanks for giving me nightmares.

[True Ogre]

Axel's switch over to seniors is something I want to look at tomorrow.

I'm liking dramonic so far but he probably needs to hug a cattle prod.

[True Ogre]

(back in about 12 hours. busy scourging underworld last few days. read up to end of page 40.)

[True Ogre]

Okay, (1) I haven't said "Seniors is scum" and don't expect to say that anytime soon with any degree of certainty. This is just an early vote for me.

I didn't like the way you sidled up to the Seniors vote and then came in with a big definitive assessment of what made them scum in 298. It seemed overjustified considering you'd already been saying that Seniors were worth a vote. And while I acknowledge that could have come from some suspicion of beeboy and then a reverting of heart from you, I find it rare that town articulates their conviction behind a vote, by way of a long and strong post in that manner.

And since then, I haven't seen any reason to move the vote. He's complained that Beeboy's tunneling him, but not done anything to change his mind either. He got all sulky and said Beeboy sucked the "fun" out of the game for him, which I could easily see happening to a scum who's getting caught for what they think are garbage reasons.

This is untrue. You moved your vote immediately to pistachion when Ami counterclaimed Miller.

I notice you're now voting dramonic along with davesaz.
Weren't you suspicious of davesaz almost the entire game up till now, liking Mirhawk's push on him and disliking davesaz' push on Mirhawk?

What has happened here with your reads?

I will say I think the "EP" head sounds better than the "Hippy" head? At least, as best I can tell, I think most of the posts I don't like seem to be coming from that one, but that could just be the one head not being as good at being scum as the one head just being more Townie. And even the EP head appears to have defaulted to a "Sheep" vote behind another player, so that's not particularly great either.

I'm interested in seeing content out of the hiplop head. Taking a back seat in a hydra doesn't equal zero opinions.

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

So my vote is stale.

UNVOTE: Friendless Seniors

[True Ogre]

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

Do you have ideas yet about who are tiptoeing around this lynch or is that still a work in progress?

I would have to go back and ISO/investigate Seniors and I've just finished with the davesaz read and mental-flavour-rolling.
My next thing to do was look back at Skybird but I tend to spend so much time thinking that I was almost going to be lazy about the whole thing and cook dinner instead.

My thoughts there primarily are the fact that by the time I voted I think there were only 2 votes on the wagon. But I'm almost positive more people had voted or expressed interest and and then moved away before that.

It's almost like when you get those early wagons that are guaranteed to go nowhere? Even though my vote on Seniors is stale, I don't have a read on them right now.

What are you thinking about that early activity and the way the wagon shaped itself? If anything.

[True Ogre]

Reading Seniors' ISO has been like gargling liquid PCP and just falling short of swallowing the whole mouthful.
I'm struggling to figure out if that comes from town or if it's a caricature of what town behaviour is supposed to be.

[True Ogre]

I ISO'd Mirhawk at some point while reading up on davesaz.

(Incidentally I don't have much for davesaz at the moment - I think he's interacting and scumhunting

okay

but am not sure how I'd approach him because I'd rather see what he

does

)
(...says the observer beside the electron array)

Regarding Mirhawk I wasn't really impressed with his involvement as far as breaking out and following his own leads. I feel he's been defending himself a lot and while I know that can be a function of being criticised too much I suppose I got a different impression just reading through and noting his behaviour (didn't get the push/wagon on him, but felt he was doing more than his ISO would lead me to believe).

Overall I think I remember the intial strong push on Mirhawk coming from events surrounding the Miller claim and I think a lot of that was overblown. As in the individual points to me didn't matter so much (and that's not entirely related to pushes on Mirhawk actually).

Mostly gut-vibe feedback for you there, not sure if it helps. I might go there in a pinch but at the moment I don't have a strong reason to believe Mirhawk's scum.

[True Ogre]

I've seen an RVS wagon succeed in a game I gleefully replaced into (rolling scum, of course) and promptly spent the rest of the game blaming the townies who pushed the wagon through for the bad position town were in.
I'm sure it happens but probably not with this playerlist.

[True Ogre]

Mini, 7 to lynch, done in post 32. Person I replaced was on the wagon :)

Think I'll look at Cakez/tictac tomorrow. Still have to engage properly with Skybird as well.

[True Ogre]

So, re: podo. #1178 is the most righteous thing anyone has posted this entire game, and I guess I'm pretty much never voting for him. So I hope he's Town or we're just going to lose.

I'd also like to know how your opinion on podo influences the game's outcome to the point that "we're just going to lose" if he's scum since your opinion is that he's town.

[True Ogre]

When I said that Seniors was "worthy" of a vote I was NOT BEING SERIOUS. I WAS JOKING. At that point in the game, I had zero opinion of Seniors. Or, my opinion was that he hadn't yet done anything. Certainly not enough to justify how much BeeBoy seemed to be pushing him.

In your 46, sure. I'm not referring to that comment or any pun-related posts (and I haven't asked anything about this before so I'm not sure why you're getting frustrated about it).

I'm talking mainly about your sidling up to the Seniors wagon and then finding reasons to call them scummy in the same post you voted. I think you already had in mind what you were going to do with regard to that vote well before you typed it.

Particularly this part of your 152:

Wrong Lynch is fine

Unvote

. Pied Piper is also fine. Friendless Seniors hasn't done anything.

@Beeboy: when you say you know how Friendless Seniors would react to you, are you talking about one of the hydra heads in particular? Or is this a Hydra that you have played with before? I don't get your conviction given that Seniors hasn't done much of anything.

Then you also agree that Seniors is worth voting, and comment that beeboy seems genuine in your 288. It seems like you're looking very very hard for reasoning to lay a vote on Seniors. The vote comes in your next post 45 minutes later (along with your justifications which seem more irritated than anything else).

To wit:

Characterizing the

single

vote (also the single post) of SnarkytheSnowman during the very early stages as a "push" that felt "weird," in order to justify his own vote. That makes zero actual sense.

This is really stretching. Vote / Push - what's the difference and why does it matter?

You're going to get mad? If people keep pushing on you? Welcome to Mafia, I guess. Also, you might think that if someone you really thought was Town was pushing on you, you would be trying to, I don't know, convince them of the innocent error of their ways. As opposed to threatening them. Like that's going to be productive.

This is more irritated than a reason to scumread Seniors. Do you think a threat directed at beeboy who has already made it obvious he's familiar with Seniors, is going to make him back off? Nah.

The way he says he "dislikes" being discussed so much. It's like, you know who doesn't like being discussed? And defending on the basis that they hadn't done anything?

OOH OHH I know it's scum who doesn't like being discussed right?
Except it's not, in general. I can give you one star out of ten if you were thinking that maybe hiplop was hiding behind EP and felt the need to come in to post to appear that both heads were active, and then didn't really want to talk, but that's not what you're saying (and is a derivation of a derivation of a stretch anyway). Being discussed as scum opens up a whole bag of opportunities for townies to be wrong, for buddies to defend or bus, to be that rational scum. I have a lot of trouble swallowing that you believe what you're asserting here, and funnily I doubt that Seniors is going to come in as scum and say "hey guys we're off-limits fuck you oh and I'm town".

And finally the "look over there" vote. The rationale here is just bad. Seems to think you can't be suspicious of a player and also other people that player says are suspicious at the same time. Which you can, and it wouldn't be fencesitting even if you couldn't, it would be...something else. Inconsistent mindset maybe. And stirring the pot is not scummy in the first instance. Basically none of this makes any sense from a Town mindset. He's just lashing out.

I think Cakez' reads at the time were highly dubious given what had happened up till then:

ATM scum reads of varying degrees on Tictac, Seniors, Ogre, and Beeboy.

And I don't think that your own defending of dubious reads is a good reason to scumread Seniors.

At the moment I feel you're the scummiest player I've looked at.

VOTE: Axelrod

[True Ogre]

Axel doesn't look new to me with a 2005 join date.

Also I got lazy and will be back tomorrow.

Ranger your reads need to show more nuance.

[True Ogre]

And by nuanced I mean your top tier is entirely alien to me.

The closest on a superficial inspection I have to alignment parity with you is perhaps the TWL read who I am really really unsure of right now.

You've obviously done things in detail but I might like to bounce some sorting off you I think. I'm really hoping you're town here.

[True Ogre]

You've obviously done things in detail but I might like to bounce some sorting off you I think. I'm really hoping you're town here.

Ah, so you've played with me before. Good to know. I don't particularly need to know who you are (to be honest, I could probably guess but I don't see the point), but knowing you've played with me and have a positive impression of me is a nice fact to know.

And, yes. This is the peak of my town game. Maybe I've been more town than in this game in some prior game, but subjectively, I can tell you I've never

felt

more town than this game before. The question isn't whether I'm town or scum, it's whether I'm accurate-town or inaccurate-town.

Yes I suppose we have a couple of times. Your read on me is wrong which actually matches you as town. Your entrance of sorting and ignoring outside happenings matches you as town. I'm jsut not a fan of your "night on untouchable town" list, mainly.

[True Ogre]

I like beeboy's question and would also like to hear the answer.

[True Ogre]

I'm just not a fan of your "nigh on untouchable town" list, mainly.

Let me fix that for me.

[True Ogre]

Okay. Here's my take on Tammy.

I really liked the burst of energy and the pushes on Mala and Nacho which seemed like efforts to engage them and sort them. They were different but they were present. It also felt a little like she was posting without care for how whe was appearing to others. Now what I don't like is the periods she's been absent, and I also have a suspicion surrounding the way she directly defended my own position. Even though it was correct and I had a rise in my chest when she stated things I thought were obvious, I've seen defenses of town come from scum just as much as from town. Her defense didn't seem shady but I really want her input into the game and there's no way at this point she's untouchable town on day 1 and without seeing more of her and the way she carries herself further.

I could almost say the inverse (roughly speaking) for the Mala/GM hydra although there are a couple of more obvious pingy things that make me put them into a nullscum bracket.
(Inverse is a bad way to characterise what I've seen here by the way, but I'm trying to get across that I have similar thought patterns that end up in different conclusions, for both slots).

So that's an explanation. I don't get yours much. It seems a bit mastina-ey in that nothing's really expanded upon except for your own process, and believe me whenever she and I have played together but separately I've tried to reach out to her on that front. I want a bit more, I want some internal workings to match with my own. I'm trying to do the same here with you.

[True Ogre]

Okay I found what you're referring to there beeboy.

beeboy I can read well enough and I can tell you his early enthusiasm is basically the exact OPPOSITE of his scum game, so there's reason for that.

preedit:
Tell me about your take on Axel when you return please :)
nighters

[True Ogre]

Is it too onerous for you to mention or link the game you played in previously where he was scum?

[True Ogre]

What do you like about Cakez?

[True Ogre]

Or did you want me to ask about your non-top-tier reads instead.

I had Sakura as town early but I think she's decided to coast now and I'm more used to her being involved rather than a side-note. Perhaps she's just found something comfortable in this game where she doesn't need to worry about being attacked constantly and I shouldn't worry, but it's odd to me. What are your thoughts there?

[True Ogre]

I really like this reads progression you are doing, but it would be even better with a little more commentary on what is making people shift around for you.

Well if you want it, just ask.

For instance, if you asked, "what changed between pages 6 and 8?", then I would answer to the best of my ability, and then give bonus cred by further saying what the

current

read is.

I'm not gonna spend that time by default.

Omg Ranger's reads are pretty fantastic.

Well, I

do

have a reputation to uphold!

I mean the least you could do is try to elaborate given the above.

^oops, me.

[True Ogre]

Sorry for the low activity - it's been a pretty hectic week and weekend here for me, mostly lovely work crap.
(I mean err... *clears throat*)
"Righting of so many untortured souls have occupied True Orge seldom spare moments."

I'd love to be doing what I said and going through ISOs methodically and following up properly (particularly with Axel) but I simply don't have the time and this playerlist is so huge on Day 1 that I think I'm just going to have to settle on a compromise I'm okay with.

Happier to see Seniors go than Mirhawk. I have some doubts about Cakez but not to the point that I'd be comfortable lynching him without doing the work that I'm not going to do probably before deadline.

So -

VOTE: Friendless Seniors

[True Ogre]

We could have up to 2 fully functioning wagons form and dissipate and reform by deadline, based on my personal experience here. It's hard, but doable.

I'm not really a fan of the shitstorm that last minute wagons raise but if it happens I'll have a look and make a decision on whether I want to support it.

Also the seeds of viable lynchability was probably laid long ago by Plotinus before Ranger replaced in, rather than Ranger herself. From memory Plot had the viable candidates as Seniors, Mirhawk and Swordsworth (who Ranger replaced). I think they were the three.

[True Ogre]

I'm here, no need to prod for the record. Didn't realise 2 days had gone by already.

[True Ogre]

I basically have no update except from what I've been loosely following along with and what my gut says from having followed along.

I don't feel like Ranger is a good Day 1 lynch and don't feel her posting has been enough for me to say that it's even likely to be scum. I don't know how to read her very well and thus she gets a pass from me for today.

Cakez I feel has been at least consistently relevant and I'm not interested in that today. Also I agree a tictac lynch doesn't help anyone much - as in - if we're going to do that we may as well go full on policy-lynch... and at this point I don't even feel like supporting a lynch on either of dramonic nor Snarky.

So I'm still not much help I'm afraid. I'm happy to lynch Seniors, more so than Mirhawk, and I'm unconvinced on other options being floated.

Time is short.

[True Ogre]

SirCakez:

Tammy (1)

Skybird:

pistachi0n (1)

dramonic:

Axelrod (1)

Axelrod:

dramonic (1)

These people need to move their votes.

[True Ogre]

Now have comical mental images of Nacho appearing as Braveheart and Tammy appearing as Black Widow to save all our days and provide benevolent and strong leaderships. Thanks for that *chuckle*

But fair call, Tammy's vote is defunct and Nacho-hydra is sitting on Mirhawk without further pushing.

@Plotinus - the initial mental "bzzt" was regarding top-tiering Cakez when she'd just voted off and then back on, yes. But it was more that I couldn't digest the strength of the tier and why certain folks seemed just shoved there. I'm more suspicious at heart.

[True Ogre]

Tammy's is defunct. You're just not pushing your own vote.

[True Ogre]

Which I can't really criticise actually but anyyyway

[True Ogre]

VOTE: Ranger

I believe that's only

L-2

surprisingly enough. As far as I can tell there are now 9 votes on Ranger and 6 on Seniors with 11 to lynch.

Mirhawk: THE WRONG LYNCH, The Pied Piper, Cerberus v666 (3)
tictac: SirCakez (1)
SirCakez: Tammy (1)
Skybird: pistachi0n (1)
Axelrod: dramonic (1)

In case it wasn't clear, we are now in "scramble for a lynch before deadline" mode

Meaning these people need to pick a side (*coughvoteforRangercough*) if they haven't already.

Or face my wrath if we run out of time

Actually I think it's more like:

Mirhawk:

THE WRONG LYNCH, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)

SirCakez:

Tammy (1)

Skybird:

pistachi0n (1)

Axelrod:

dramonic (1)

Cakez went to Mirhawk in 1904 and Pied Piper went to Ranger in 1919.

But yes the people who need to vote or indicate a preference one way or another are:

TWL, Cerberus, Cakez, Tammy, pistachion, dramonic

Or explain why they'd prefer to force no-lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-06 21:00:00)

[True Ogre]

VOTE: Friendless Seniors L-4

There's still time to make this happen.

Well the hero returneth.

What do you mean "There's still time" when you yourself voted Ranger before I left for work today, tipping the balance? Seriously.

VOTE: Seniors

Also, Cerberus, I don't think you've as much as sneezed in my direction before. Saying that I created two wagons you're not interested in is crap and I think you know that.

*grgrrrgrrrrhmmm*

[True Ogre]

Actually, let's rephrase that. I believe ranger is town. I lack sufficient cause to believe FS is scum. That's a very important distinction to make.

So your choice is no-lynch.
Seems to favour scum, no?

[True Ogre]

One more word about where my vote is and I'm leaving it there and not moving it for the day.

I don't think that anyone with any experience at this game actually believes that because people aren't voting on a major wagon in a large theme on day one is because they are trying to force a no lynch through, especially when they say they'll be back before deadline. Therefore, it's looking a bit suspicious to me, like ogre is trying to look to proton by being tooooo concerned about the lynch. EGADS we only have 14 hours left whatever shall we dooooooooooooooo?????????

I think I like rangers last posts, but I only very quickly skimmed. I'll have to check back though, I thi she recently did the not claiming today as scum. I could totally be remembering that wrong, so don't me to this. More a reminder to myself to look back after work. Wouldn't mind a claim from friendless though!

And with that I'm off to work!

If you want to no-lynch, fine, great.
Fun times tomorrow when we're in the same boat with some obvtownie or town lurker dead.

[True Ogre]

*Tttttwwwwwwwwiiiiiitttttttcccccchhhhhhhh*

Twitch your heart out Tammy, you had a great entrance and then just left the game and the rest of us hanging for input. Of any kind. I don't know where I'm at, at all, with either of you or Mala at this stage and it's not a nice feeling.

[True Ogre]

I want you to be not voting a wagon which has precisely one vote with something like 12 hours to deadline.

If you haven't figured out who I am by now I'm sure it doesn't even matter but I'd usually be advocating deciding on a lych with half the dayphase through because last minute bullshit is not my favourite part of any game and especially not larges. Closest we've been to a lynch was when I just voted Ranger to L-2. Then claims and fucking bullshit like that.

[True Ogre]

Real good unique input there Cerberus.

[True Ogre]

Yeah it's like 11am tomorrow my time and it's currently 9pm.

[True Ogre]

Also I didn't get your concern. All I got was "True Ogre ur so horrid for calling me out for not picking a wagon. Of course everything will be neatly tied up with 3.5% of the dayphase left"

Anyway you're not Black Widow anymore. You can be little miss muffet.

[True Ogre]

Yeah right Cerberus. I just loooove casting dem shades.

VOTE: Cakez

Sheeping the correct player obviously. Unconcerned with securing a lynch today, it'll be fine.

Pre-edit
Okay cool. I came back in to look busy, because I already know that both lynches are on town? Is that the crux there Tammy?


See you after work then.

[True Ogre]

I *think* I've played with you just the once before, quite a long time ago.ut you and I had a sorta-sync at the time which I'm not really *not* seeing this game but I just expected a bit more of my own feeling on lynches close to deadline. I want everyone with vanity votes to explain why.

I guess I'll crawl back into my personal hell now noting that you and Cerberus have both at least stated positions.

[True Ogre]

Yes my sheeping of Tammy is a contrast to my sheeping of Nacho and if you heads are going to try to rationalise each others' behaviour without having an anchoring point of your own hydra thread then we're going to have a bad time together. I don't trust you and I'm sure you can understand why.

[True Ogre]

Egh, I have the demons of the underworld on my soul right now and I'm angrily sorry.

I think Seniors is ABSOLUTELY FINE as a lynch today and I'd PREFER NOT TO LYNCH RANGER TODAY but apparently certain people are hard of hearing.

beeboy if you don't actually care right now how about you look at both wagons and decide who's townier on each?

Spiffeh? I realise that you're asking for a Nacho sheep but the hydra heads are the same alignment. What do you think about their Seniors vote?

[True Ogre]

You mustn't understand me very well then and I'm not all that surprised. Just for the fact that sometimes I don't understand why I go in certain directions even though I -could- rationalise it afterward.

Why did Nacho vote Ranger then? Or is this particular lacking to the point you need to guess at it? What were his previous reads on Ranger?

Do you seriously think I'm attempting to start a wagon on Cakez? I don't think anyone one else does. I want to read that naïveté in you as town plot but I just need some reference point on you that I simply don't have.

[True Ogre]

Also if you're scum and I'm in your spreasheet as "reading us town" then please look at my avatar and imagine me biting you on the bum.

Oh fuck it had to happen

Me I guess.

*grrrmmmgrrrgrhhh*

[True Ogre]

Bum-biting comment stands

[True Ogre]

True Ogre why are you voting Cakez with less than 12 hours left til deadline?

I'm sheeping Tammy who is my lord and saviour and also I will be back for a few hours before deadline and have already stated I'd rather lynch Seniors over Ranger.

Catfiche?

Also I never guaranteed I wouldn't be drunk today so caveat emptor.

[True Ogre]

Your question is also shitty.

[True Ogre]

I remember mainly our interactions from the shitty blitz you've referenced earlier. We were both town; I didn't know how to read you; I've had other interactions with you and you've been scum and really passive and convincing and gaining my trust -- and that's what I distrust at this point. As far as Nacho goes - I like his input and it has not at all rung on my scum-radar and a couple of times in the past when he has been scum, it has. I'll go back to what I said earlier and just state that for me it is a pure gut-feel and something to do with not caring and trolling on his part. I haven't seen that from him -yet- and I'm actually appreciative of his input so I'm towning it but he's obviously subject to change especially when you two are hydra-ing.

It's a tough time reading you guys. But I'm prepared to put in some faith.

I'm guessing Nacho already knew who I was or gut-felt the interaction. Comments like "take that ogre" aren't uninformed.

[True Ogre]

Amihan, what do you think of Ranger's recent posts?

I think her thought process still feels fake as ever.

Fake, a Sever?
Or
Fake as Ever?

Just for the record. Considering both statements are equally devoid of content.

[True Ogre]

Holy shit

[True Ogre]

VOTE: pistachi0n

[True Ogre]

VOTE: tictac

[True Ogre]

pistachi0n is a fantastic lynch too.

[True Ogre]

Read iso.

[True Ogre]

Who got Seniors' fruit?

[True Ogre]

Seniors can be town then. I'm leaving Axel alone for now but am still keeping an eye on him due to pushes not feeling genuine.

[True Ogre]

TWL needs to post more. If Mala can't, GM can.

[True Ogre]

I have a question about that actually.

Did gm give some kind of notice that they were going to have limited access or something.

Yesterday when I pointed out that TWL was absent Piper jumped down my throat.

I understand that mala's busy, but is there a reason gm is never here that I missed?

I dunno. I think Mala has school stuff and is pretty permanently vla but as far as GM goes I think only Mala herself mentioned there was some limited access.

[True Ogre]

Why the hell would Seniors choose Mirhawk, a leading wagon yesterday, to vend to?

So are we voting tictac or are you sheeping me.

[True Ogre]

Probably cause no one would kill me.

That's not true. If we assume that snarky was indeed killed by a vig...said vig might have very well shot you instead, if they were one of the people who were suspicious of you.

Cakez, are you positing a seniors/hawk team, or are you just questioning seniors' judgment?

Also, fuck you all, you don't know shit about reading Ranger.

^^

No. Vig if it exists was always going to shoot Snarky or dramonic. Mirhawk was under suspicion as it was and could be lynched.

[True Ogre]

Hrm, I read Tac's Iso.

Pretty lurky, but nothing stands out to me as particularly scummy.

What in particular looks scummy to you?

If your name was Cakez asking me that question explicitly I might even answer it.

But if you want to know what to look for, there is absolutely no scumhunting involved. Their role is scum.

^sorry, me.

[True Ogre]

Wait

[True Ogre]

I misread that and was talking about pistachi0n

[True Ogre]

I'm trusting Cakez to be more accurate than me at this stage.

Also I want to hear from pistach now I've accused them of being scum.

[True Ogre]

Was Spiffeh scumreading TWL? I know he ended up townflopping on you but his other reads were probably so spread out in his ISO that I didn't pay a lot of attention.

[True Ogre]

Assuming I'm talking to hiplop

[True Ogre]

Please provide a short dissertation on your theory there.

[True Ogre]

Skybird is my top pick.

VOTE: Skybird

VOTE: Skybird Agreed.

Please provide a short dissertation on your theory there.

So you two are the ones who instrumented the Miller claim/counterclaim right.

[True Ogre]

We're not random voting here, you need *reasons*.

[True Ogre]

You should probably comment on that Skybird vote.

[True Ogre]

Yeah I was just wondering why you decided to mention TWL as someone who would potentially kill Spiffeh.

[True Ogre]

Mala can you send GM in to pick up the slack please? I don't like the idea of you having to do everything while you obviously have RL commitments.

[True Ogre]

I'd take a stab at reading GM.

[True Ogre]

That said I love your post there.

[True Ogre]

In my humble opinion, town have two options to lynch today and the other one I'm faithing on Cakez.

tictac or pistachi0n.

Pitchachion and Amihan have just somehow voted Skybird who is basically today's lynchbait.
They haven't explained it, and pistachion hasn't addressed my accusation that they're scum.

UNVOTE: tictac
VOTE: pistachi0n

I'd be happy to lynch either today

[True Ogre]

NKA usually sucks

spiffeh kill makes no sense though.

Half here because I'm half dead.

FS I love how you say NKA usually sucks yet you comment yourself on it.

Hi. I want to know this too.

[True Ogre]

Piper I have a question for you, remind me tomorrow when I'm back.

[True Ogre]

ty, probs 24 hours or so.

Thoughts on TWL if any?

[True Ogre]

Official welcome then Marquis!

Can you tell me why you're so convinced that pistachi0n is town?

@pistachion - can you please state exactly what your role is mechanically? Obviously paraphrasing anything relevant from your PM.

@Piper - my question specifically was - do you think Cakez as scum comes in as soon as the thread opens to push a wagon on tictac expecting to get away with that? It seems to me to be unorchestrated, which I'm associating with town.

Also, I don't think you or Nacho covered off why you were switching between Ranger and Seniors yesterday. That was some really weird behaviour there and I'd like some explanation from your hydra which isn't "I guess the other head was thinking ..."

[True Ogre]

I think the night kill analysis case on them is okayish but I think pushing them for inactivity is lame.

Also, I don't get what the NKA case is.

[True Ogre]

unconscious =/= sober

[True Ogre]

Please provide a short dissertation on your theory there.

Her votes have been opportunistic but more importantly she's done a lot of the "lol I'm so bad at this game" and it doesn't sit well with me.

Okay thanks.

Can you please specify your Miller role. I have a result on you which says you're not a miller.

[True Ogre]

Can you please specify your Miller role. I have a result on you which says you're not a miller.

I'm interested in this, and curious why you'd tell her that you have a contradictory result before hearing what her response is.

She (and Marquis actually) had been ignoring what I've been saying and have been delaying their responses. In the meantime the thread is getting muddy with everyone else going in their different directions, when this is

important

.

I get the feeling pistach is trying to come up with something credible based on the limited information provided. So there'll be no more until I get elaboration on this "other role" - but votes need to pile on here.

This is today's lynch and every assumption I make from hereonin assumes that pistachi0n flips scum this game.

[True Ogre]

So why claim Miller pistach?

[True Ogre]

While the input is appreciated (having ignored my 2445), your name is not "pistach".

[True Ogre]

UNVOTE: pistachi0n

Claiming Miller was really shitty.

[True Ogre]

Unvote

lol

What's funny?

[True Ogre]

I claimed an investigative role. I didn't get the result I expected.

Why are you finding wagons building and dissolving funny? Is this generally your attitude as town?

[True Ogre]

Why do you think I started the wagon Cakez.

[True Ogre]

So I got a question for you. Your "result" was that she "wasn't miller". So you got "innocent child" as a result? And this was something to wagon? I'm trying to figure out a non-bastard way you could receive that result and have it lead you to believe it was worth a vote.

My result wasn't that she was IC.
I didn't claim my role and since she's now confirmed I don't see any point elaborating further.

[True Ogre]

If you want me to full claim or full claim my result let me know. Otherwise, sorry.

Also general apology for being grumpy as hell yesterday. It was a bit of a shock to my world-view of the game.

I have a couple of pending questions to me to catch up on but that'll have to be tomorrow.

[True Ogre]

I'll put it this way Ploti. I'm not townreading your slot. And I probably should be given Ranger's reads. I'm back to several superpositions regarding Seniors/Mirhawk. On Cakez - I don't get the cases so far but on the other hand he hasn't done anything I feel advances himself today aside from the initial vote out of the gate.

And just to undermine and invalidate that statement of my own - I haven't paid a lot of attention to him considering the me/pistach events.


So while your posting quality is fine, I unfortunately lack the ability (or desire) to respond in kind just now. I feel like I want to put you guys on the backburner and think about other interactions so far in the game.

Anyways, back about this time tomorrow.

[True Ogre]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

First Vote

: davesaz @ #1419: I don't have any real issues with this vote. He's comparing Ranger's entrance into this game

...etc.

Can you tell me why you're looking for scum *on* the successful wagon when it's pretty common knowledge that scum prefer to be *off* a lynch wagon?
Since Piper was the original proponent of saying who'd be lynched yesterday (long before it was actually set in stone - as Tammy argued pretty stongly when kicking my ass for stressing about deadline).

I mentioned this here:

Also the seeds of viable lynchability was probably laid long ago by Plotinus before Ranger replaced in, rather than Ranger herself. From memory Plot had the viable candidates as Seniors, Mirhawk and Swordsworth (who Ranger replaced). I think they were the three.

And looking up the actual post from Piper/Plotinus, it was here:

I think the lynch of the day is going to be between Seniors, Swordsworth, and Mirhawk. Almost everybody is willing to vote Swordsworth but 0 people are actually voting him, but we'll see what happens with the replacement.

What do you think of Mirhawk?

The original post is much longer and worth a read.

Now I left in the Mirhawk thing because Ploti especially has asked me several times what I think of Mirhawk and had him as potential scum early on (parking but not pushing) but is shifting toward town now (which doesn't seem like an original thought to me - but rather like something which is an opportunity to change her read). For the record here, my read on Mirhawk is... fluctuating. Getting "wigged" doesn't say anything about his own alignment, and I think it's a bad play for a Seniors/Mirhawk team to riff off each other like that (and I think it's also extremely unlikely for that to have happened). On the other hand I don't really like his blaze attitude to wagonning... but maybe as Marquis said I'm just being "so serious" a-la Christian Bale with dead parents-turned-vigilante rather than just taking this for what it is - a game.

Anyway rather than digressing on thoughts, back to the point.

What

do

you think of Piper's Mirhawk > Seniors > Ranger > Seniors vote progression on Day 1?
All good and unimportant - or something worth questioning for its lack of seeming reason?

[True Ogre]

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Who do you think is scum? When are we going to all realise you're town?

look at that scum wagon, what an unexpected result!~
Can we PLEASE get our heads out of our ass and lynch some scum?
Three easy options: Axel, Podo, Davestaz (or however it's spelled).
I mean fuck, look at that "wagon analysis" and tell me it's town. Do it.

I mean I'd maybe consider Axel but he's putting in work and at least seems to be attempting transparency?
What am I looking for that's scummy in the analysis?

podo and davesaz you're going to need to explain to me byte by byte. dave I haven't been scumreading at all and am just slightly annoyed he hasn't burst out of the gates, but meh. podo I haven't really looked at much but if they're ninja-scum who tends to say a lot, then they're doing a good job.

So shrug?

[True Ogre]

What am I looking for that's scummy in the analysis?

You can hold off on the answer to the above since I just asked Axel myself but I'd like a response on dave/podo if you can muster it.

[True Ogre]

Also, why is Marquis's name green?

Because he's a list mod.

Hi. Did you see my main?

What are your thoughts on Nacho and me in this game? I'm not sure who else here you tend to be able to drop opinions on but I know that you should have opinions on both of us. You seem really quiet.

[True Ogre]

Also, why is Marquis's name green?

Because he's a confirmed townie.

(Just kidding)

Please. Please do something.

[True Ogre]

True Ogre, if you're not town then serious props to you cause you completely fooled me
god tier townread right now

Yeah thanks for that. I love being townread for prematurely claiming and forcing an IC to claim when setup balance probably assumes they might last until mylo.
I also love the conflicting emotion of being townread for what I think is a bad reason.
/s

:(

tictac's 2578 kinda rubs me the wrong way.

I got a tickle from the "can it on the PR spec guize" comment... thought it might be one of those helpful but filler comments.
But at this stage I don't know if there's even anyone who I have a solid townread on which is pretty horrible.
And most people in this game are actually town.

Maybe I'll move to Murcia and vote Trump. I hear there's free wigs.

[True Ogre]

Jim replaces beeboy.

Hi Jim. Welcome.

???

[True Ogre]

Yeah, something doesn't add up with Ogre's investigative results on me--at first I thought he might be scum with some investigative role trying to get me quicklynched before I could claim IC, but that doesn't make sense either--maybe he just wanted to draw it out of me?

As I mentioned, I'm more than happy to full-claim if

you

want me to.

It's not all that complicated but I made a mistake pushing you.

[True Ogre]

I'm not a fan of "lol wagons". I tend to take the game a bit more seriously than that at least when doing things which affect a lynch - and frankly can't think of a time outside of RVS that I've wagonned for no reason other than... a wagon.

So your approach in seeming to have a cheerful time with wagons rising or falling doesn't resonate with me and causes me to question why you have that attitude.

To be clear, I don't think it *can't* come from town, so I'm having trouble digesting what motivates you to laugh at certain moments.

Anyway, "tee hee". I may or may not dodge the weekend.

Nacho, interact with Sakura will you please?

And Axel, yes the question was to you. I decided to sheep the hydra late in the day yesterday and was extremely perturbed when their vote lacked the intellectual backing I expected.

[True Ogre]

Can you give a short summary of your case against Cakez please Mirhawk?

I think I'm townleaning him at least and I don't quite understand the transgressions which have you reading him as scum. He's reminding me of Aristophanes in a game I palyed not long ago except he's more accessible.

[True Ogre]

Anyway I'm going here.

VOTE: The Wrong Lynch

Personal reasons for not participating aside, there's nothing but excuses, excuses, excuses for not even trying to give reads or opinions.

[True Ogre]

Sakura can be townish for now.
dramonic I was reading initially as strong/quiet picking stuff out which was scummy and I don't hav ehtat anymore
Piper I'm leaning scum
Seniors I'm faith-leaping as a townlean
Mirhawk is null in the sense I'm flip-flopping
I thought there was somehting a little off about podo Day 1, but one or two of posts today I had town-pings from

[True Ogre]

Dave I wish would do more
itle seems town which is nice having replaced beeboy
I don't understand some of Cerb's questioning but he did ping me as town yesterday
I'm not so-so-worried about Skybird anymore
Axel I don't think I can read.

Who did I miss.

[True Ogre]

Oh tictac.
Yeah not sure. Seems genuine-ish tbh.
If he's scum he's doing the under-the-radar thing. He's been responsive to me but not notable. I might have a look back there.

[True Ogre]

Okay thanks for the succinct response.

I'll probably scan Cakez' ISO rather than your own based on that. It's not a 1v1 and I looked through yours Day 1 (and have been following along).

[True Ogre]

Nah Cakez is town.

I think your argument falls apart a bit because you're implying he should have stepped up as a real wagon leader for either yourself or tictac for lynch over Ranger yesterday.

But I sure as hell didn't do that. I can see Cakes as town doing what he did yesterday. I also liked his pushy entrace today. Didn't like how it died off. But it was bound to draw attention to him.

I think Piper mentioned something about that too. Looks like it's time for me to catch up with Ploti's posts again.

Edit: No that wasn't sarcasm. I did want the short story and have scanned back through Cakez ISO Day 1. I just don't think what he's doing comes from scum.

[True Ogre]

Also: Still scumreading Skybird.

Is part of that because I just said I wasn't terribly concerned about her anymore, and you're worried about me?

I'm thinking I'll just claim right now. I was thinking about this earlier and I think it could get confusing if I get NK'd and it's up in the air. What do you think?

[True Ogre]

TWL is a bit easier, Mala in my experience hates playing scum and fades once she's put down a few good town posts. I played with her in my first newbie where she was scum and have two or three times after that (at least one of which where she was scum in a hydra with plotinus). After a strong entry Mala just... disappeared. Ploti was always giving her excuses for it - and obviously that could *is* RL-related as I don't expect either of them to actually lie as either alignment - but the entrance here rings really familiar with that PlottinKittehs game for me. And it's just unfortunate that GM disappeared because now the slot is actually a placeholder.

So, leaning scum, but at the least want the slot to *do* something - even if that means replacing.

tictac's gut right now but I'll go back and have a look. Similar feels to Cakez, in that when I've scanned his iso there have been several things that struck me as more likely town than scum.

<3

Edit: ^@itle

[True Ogre]

I got up to post 4, then post 8, and now post 11 of tictac's ISO and almost immediately want to rescind my gut.

[True Ogre]

This is kind of weird. Could be an attempt to engage (alhtough he's not addresing Spiffeh directly). It's a ping on Spiffeh followed by sheeping Spiffeh and voting Seniors.

The only scummy thing they did was calling the Snarky vote a push and somehow getting a read off of him from his naked vote

EP has looked pretty town and hiplop's frustration seems genuine

I keep going back and forth on them and I'm actually leaning towards them being town if I had to guess

First time Spif pings me. Disagree with frustration feeling genuine.
This is not what a null read looks like.

--- same post

That's a scum replace out

Ayp.

EP why do you always sound fake to me it makes me sad

Ayp.

---same post

His whole catch up post looks like busy work and he never pushes pistachi0n who he is apparently voting for

Needed to catch up to know I was pushing in a direction I wanted to go. I'm glad I waited.

Still need to look at Rangers progression in more detail, but I'm caught up more or less.

This looks good.
VOTE: Seniors

Seniors>Ranger>pist>Mir

And we already know that Spiffeh, Ranger and pistachion are town.

[True Ogre]

Also wanna hear why dave keeps saying he forgets stuffwhen he's near eidetic.

Okay, here's one of my townpings. I thought this was a good observation. I didn't read the string of drunkposts as town in and of themselves.

[True Ogre]

VOTE: pist
Back to this. I'll add claiming additional PR instead of claiming flavour to the charges. How the heck is that preferable?

Other news:

- In Cheetory mafia Amihan faked a guilty for reactions (while avoiding being explicit about it). She did this as scum. I wonder if the alt-switch was designed to direct our meta-reading to Marquis games and away from Cheetory :/ I've been writing her off as town from the gambit and I need to stop doing that.

- I'm unconfortable with how podo seems to be following Cakez around (latest instance her vote on me). The arc of 1.scumread Ranger-slot 2. Townread her from naked reads seems scummy to me. Like he first wanted to scumread a player who is known for her reads and then wanted to townread her once he found out she was off-base. Podo might feel more comfortable following a scummy path if he's sheeping a townie. I'm still witholding judgement on Cakez since I tunneled him day 1 last game and the things I find scummy here are the things I found scummy there.
- Cakez is right about me being less active here than I was in the mini. He was less active there and town. I don't see how he thinks it's AI. Nevertheless, criticism received. I will endeavor to put more effort in.

Here's another gut-town-ping which I've bolded.
I thought it was an astute observation, but I guess on reflection these are the kinds of things one might tend to come up with as scum.
I also thought the flow of this post was okay.

I'm sitting here looking at the word 'okay' and trying to think of how to describe it better. I guess 'genuine' at the time.

[True Ogre]

Post 2670 just gave me that feeling of "confronting".

There's no real backing down. Things people have said against tictac have been addressed (albeit in an awkward quote-stripey format), there are follow-ups to unanswered questions (and I've just clicked the link where he linked to another game where he called out PR-spec).

So yeah. Overall at this point... I still have a slight gut-town on tictac.

[True Ogre]

Spoiler: proof that I'm not a lying scumbag about RL

I absolutely don't think you like about RL. Ever. I think other people hardly ever do, either.
It's just the difference between how you engage and how you fade as scum vs town.

Like I don't want to give you tips if you're scum, but the town-game I played with you not that long back had you coming in and just pushing. It was quite a difference from you as scum. It's not like you had a lot of time or anything, and you were wrong (and so was I) - but it didn't stop you from focussing on saying things you thought about the game.

I texted GM this afternoon and I still didn't get a reply. So if I don't hear from her in the next few days I'll replace into just a solo spot and I'll try to give time. I want to take a shower and then I'll probably try to catch up a bit, however, I don't really remember where I last left off so I'll probably just end up rereading the thread.

I'm sorry to hear that and I hope GM's okay (and I also hope things are looking up for you).

Also I need to ask Rob a question, but if I'm right:re my role, if I'm at L-2 -- treat me like I'm at L-1 until I get further notice from Rob.

I didn't look but I really doubt you're up to something like L-2 or L-1.

Just looked and last VC had you at 0 votes, but I think Cakez voted you.

I look forward to a couple of reads from you, and I hope you don't think I'm being an asshole.

[True Ogre]

You are townreading what too many people though. We have 5 scum prolly, and you have at most 2 scum reads.

Yeah well it doesn't really feel like that to me. It feels like I'm overly suspicious of too many people and that I have to settle on a few people as town.

5 scum in 22 is a bit too much. Either 2 teams of 2 or one 3-team and an SK.

[True Ogre]

Actually we started with 21. So yeah 4 scum at most I would think.

[True Ogre]

3 seems insanely townsided, I would say at least 4. Also if we have an SK they are trying to be a vig so idc.

I like you and I'm glad you're town.

[True Ogre]

pistach <3

itle never claims vig after a statement like that.

[True Ogre]

setup specing how many mafia there are is pretty important.

it's not the scum number that I'm worried about, but the openly fishing of the SK/vig thing that's bothering me

:/

Who's scum Mala?

Also I'm getting tipsy so I'm out for today. Already posted 5000 thoughts so time for others to say what they want to.

Byee!

[True Ogre]

Are you trying to bait me back into the thread?

Because it's not a stupid question, it's about what you're focussing on. I don't have a persistent connection to when you did or didn't stop reading and if you have the time to say "stop talking about vig or sk" when it's obvious that a Snarky killed is either vig or an SK attempting to look like a vig then you can take time to maybe idunno say who you think is tending town or scum? Evn from the last 10 posts you read?

/out

[True Ogre]

Nacho, you might want to spend a bit more time focussing on players you think are scum rather than constantly engaging me every time you post.

Unless you think I'm scum? Because at the moment, I dread every time you come into the thread and am not feeling that magic because it feels like your slot is loading me up with a workload I'm never going to catch up on.

So Nacho - flat out. Who's the best lynch for today in your opinion, from what you know right now?

[True Ogre]

TWL needs to post more. If Mala can't, GM can.

I understand frustration when a player is lurking and you want them to get engaged in the game but generally when Mala is busy she's just flat busy. She's not more active as town than she is as scum and this is a bitch of a game to get caught up in when you're behind (myself as a prime example), and so I'm not really dinging her that much for being inactive. The one post that Spiffeh brought up about TWL that makes sense to me is her focus near deadline, but I pointed out why I thought that the point specifically didn't hold with her. The reason why I got aggressive (with you, I think) was because it's annoying as hell to be attacked for lurking when there's not shit you can do to change it/when you're a capable enough player that possesses the magical ability to post as either alignment.

Also, I can take this on notice. I was thinking about whether Mala would even be this terrible as scum. Because she's not bad at it.

UNVOTE: The Wrong Lynch
VOTE: The Pied Piper

I think we're dealing with a scum-Nacho here folks.

[True Ogre]

Well okay, snark for snark that's fair.

My initial thoughts on Cakez is fairly obvious given what I've already claimed and goes to the nature of my own result. Which is why I don't really want to talk about it and I thought you'd be clever enough to pick up on it.

I am reading your posts by the way, I just haven't had the mental energy to pore through them.

Regarding Skybird being lynch-bait - I thought I had an almost-sure thing in pistachion being scum. Therefore I was reading into associatives too much especially regarding an Amihan/Marquis connection. When that was proven false I reverted to being a bit concerned and then had a read of the follow-ups she decided to post back to me. I'm not sold on her town but I think I have a town-tickle there.

[True Ogre]

-awakens-

Axel, quick question. If you ignore everything meta I've said about TWL so far, do you still disagree with my read?
(You're going to need to ignore my vote away from them onto Piper since that had a meta base)

I just wonder why you're spending time bellyaching about meta when there are reasons aside from that. Even if I had no knowledge of the slot I'd have been finding their activity pretty damn useless and scummy.
(And what do you think of nacho/Piper's defense of the slot?)


-
back after work, around for a bit drinking coffee for quick questions if anyone's around. Nice and bleary -chuckle-

[True Ogre]

I know you didn't ask me this question, but the answer is: is this information that you have more valuable known to the Town than hidden from the scum? And that's something only you can really assess.

I know I've been speculating like a champ, but I support this sentiment.

Your spec is wrong but I get the feeling at least a couple of others know what happened.
I'm leaving it for now, you can argue about it when I'm dead or if it becomes important.

[True Ogre]

She literally posted a quote of you calling her last 4 posts scummy.
That's not overblown, that's factually correct.

[True Ogre]

How does last 4 posts = everything I post lately?

What qualifies? Last 6 posts?
You're calling yourself out on semantics for some reason...???

[True Ogre]

Everything I post lately would be calling a consistent stream of posts for at least a day scummy.

I don't think that Skybird has an obligation to live up to your definition of "everything lately".
When she posted that quote of yours I immediately understood and agreed with her definition.

I'm really not sure why it's important that you try to assert that you're in the right here.

[True Ogre]

davesaz/ogre, thoughts on TWL?

At the moment I'm super-concerned about Piper's defense of the TWL when I don't know that they have a reason to be defending aside from either WKing or not wanting TWL lynched because both-scum.

Piper might have been wanting to give TWL more time to get into the game but I don't get that impression.

But TWL looks scummy and associative reads aren't great without a flip. I could reconsider. Just not feeling the Piper-town. Did your read on them change?

[True Ogre]

Everything I post lately would be calling a consistent stream of posts for at least a day scummy.

I don't think that Skybird has an obligation to live up to your definition of "everything lately".
When she posted that quote of yours I immediately understood and agreed with her definition.

I'm really not sure why it's important that you try to assert that you're in the right here.

:facepalm:
We have different definitions of this. I'll drop it for now.

In a sentence or two, what was with your insta-wagon on tictac at the start of the day?

[True Ogre]

You seemed really sure of yourself at the time. I'll go back and re-read what you posted in the case, from memory it was peppered with links so I would have just read it and not clicked.

Top 3 people you want to lynch today?

[True Ogre]

I'll go back and re-read what you posted in the case

This'll be after work btw.

[True Ogre]

Also FS I will bully whoever to push this lynch through right now. Dwlee hasn't read the game so its not like his opinion matters at all, but his vote does.

I don't mind being bullied at times on things that matter to the bully. Think of me as Grodon Ramsay's appreciative Stockholm student.
So, bully me on Mirhawk...

The cases of Sky and TPP are weak af. Either might be scum but if they flip scum its cause town got lucky and RNGed a scum flip.

...Because I believe I've already outlined the issues I have with Piper - even if I've been too otherwise preoccupied and kind of lazy to follow up on them.

And I'll note that even though their push yesterday close to deadline was

Mirhawk > Seniors > Ranger > Seniors

- with inadequate reason,
today's is

Cakez > Sykbird > [who the fuck even knows why they are scumreading who they are]

I expect more clear reason from the slot. I don't expect them to write things off or to misadvocate, which is what's happening (this mainly from Nacho).
I'm still not confident in reading Ploti, but the towngame I did play with them - they had emotion. Fallibility which was to do with gamestate. A cautious passion about not knowing.

I don't have a problem with lynching Mirhawk today aside from "why"? I think focussing on one shitty thing a player did, to call a player scum, is a bit weak.
That's sorta why I like Cakez for town too. He has explanations for what he does and isn't afraid at all about opening himself up to cracks. He's just posting what he thinks.

-

anyway I'm back for a bit, took yesterday off. reading up a bit.

[True Ogre]

Also just by the by, Axel continues to impress as scum.

I think it was itle that mentioned some 'GreyICE' tell. I read it at work and was about to just vote Axel if he was actually an alt.

Then I realised it wasn't actually GreyICE I was thinking of - it was ICEninja in Mini 1742. I really don't like the way Axel's coming in and sorta wall-posting cases on wagons which already have momentum. Out of the blue.

I can't remember exactly what the tell you said you got told about was, but I think Axel's quite likely scum and having a pretty decent verbose-scum-coasting game, most recently popping in with a series of accusations against Skybird in 3240.

Also Seniors I have you as town and not a small part of that is because of the shitty blitz game and the difference in your behaviour as opposed to there. I wouldn't be too quick to put Axel into a town category, just sayin'.

[True Ogre]

people always call my emotions fake when i have them and that tends to hurt worse than whatever i was originally upset about so i've been trying to walk away from the thread when that happens and i've had to do that a few times already this game. i've also been trying not take my IRL stuff out on the game and I know that a lot of the moodswings i've been having are caused by IRL things. There have been a bunch of days that I didn't post anything because the only thing I was capable of doing was melting down and I think it's healthier for the gamestate if I don't.

Look. I respect you and love you as a(n internet) person regardless of anything you say or do and I generally and obviously just sometimes want to give you huge hugs because of who you are.
But RL stuff happens regardless of alignment and I'm not talking about what you see in yourself as investing emotion, or being emotional. I'm talking about how I interpret it. I tend to trust myself.

I'll take some time to read back through you guys - it's overdue. I don't really want to do what I did with Persivul in Clowntardis and put off ISOing him and miss actual-scum if you turn out to be town.
You're breaking my heart (well mainly monsieur nacho is, I fucking love that dude's play when he's town) - but I'll take it with a fresh perspective. Best I can do.

[True Ogre]

Ok. I have:

• 3 scumleans
  
• 3-5 townleans
  
• 1 current wagon that i'm okay with
  
• 1 current wagon that i don't understand
  
• 2-3 people that I'm thinking about but I want to see more from them (this is distinct from the large group of people who haven't posted enough yet or at all)
  
• ~5 people that I think that if they are town they would be easy mislynches for scum. There is a little overlap here with my scumleans)
  
• 2-3 people that I think will be hard for me to read based on their playstyle so far this game or previous experience with their playstyle. I expect this number to grow once more people are posting.
  
• A bunch of people that I'm excited to be playing with. <3
  
• 1 awesome hydra partner

This is a really strong entrance from Nacho. But it doesn't go anywhere. The comment on easy mislynches is odd, too.

(I'm not going to do a blow-by-blow ISO but this is a post I didn't think was important alignment-wise with events moving as they were at the time. I'd hope there was a post ~100 posts later which would continue to narrow and self-clarify.)

[True Ogre]

Wait - was that post you Plotinus? I seem to remember fucking one of them up. It seems VERY nacho.

[True Ogre]

Alright, so far I haven't seen anything out of place for Nacho. So I'm unsure why you're focusing him for a sort so early on. Also then there's the fact Ploti is in that hydra too.

What do you mean about me? Do you mean that Sakura should be trying to sort us based on my posting or something else?

Yeah well I guess it was Ploti based on the subsequent "are you feigning" but this is really. fucking. confusing.
I need to move on.

[True Ogre]

Roughly when does Seniors become a townread of yours, Piper?
I'm up to post 709 and I know it doesn't happen before Day 2.

[True Ogre]

Aussie timezone so op.

Ahwell I'll just shut up and continue typing thoughts into notepad. Will be around for a couple of hours.

[True Ogre]

Pagetop hype 420 blaze it KKona

I tried Ploti I really did.

Spoiler:

I'm having trouble dealing with this kind of content (encouraging-non-statements):

I don't understand all of your guys vocabulary yet, and I'll try to pick up everything from here until the end, but just wanted to warn you guys that I've missed some stuff.

It's okay to ask questions if you need help.

I considered replacing out, but I think this is a good opportunity to learn, so I'm gonna stay the course.

I like this attitude.

Followed by (why is podo town?):

Yo so I think Podo is town because his posts are actually good and Seniors is tunneling him for bad reasons.

What do you like about his posts specifically?

(the two are already looking at each other and Piper takes an active/neutral role in turning their focus onto each other)

---

Questions arising

Do they express any surprise at Amihan's Marquis reveal? They seemed pretty interested in me-alt. And in 717 they seemed to be townreading Amihan for "genuinely" being a newbie, and gush at her. I'd expect that to be revised later based on the reveal. (Although to be fair Marquis isn't exactly a protocol player.) Egh.

744 I'm reading as trollfucking.

Also:

The trolling I've seen has only ever been scum-aligned. Smiley faces, schmoozing, dancing over the thread and not engaging. I'm taking this most recent with a small grain of salt because obviously when it's pointed out as scummy, a behaviour changes if scum. That said I appreciate your direct engagement.

In my opinion, the only one of these things that is actually a scumtell is "not engaging".
I'm interested in who you are because a lot of my recent scumgames have been breaking the meta of "Nacho only trolls as town".

No. You trollfuck as scum in my experience. You might "troll" as town, idk, but it doesn't fit my definition of "trollfucking".
Trollfucking is where you say and assert things that make no sense.


First paragraph of 764 feels like a resume. I don't know why it exists or what it proves or is supposed to achieve. It rings hollow for engagement with TWL so I doubt it's that.
But what's the reason for it? Does it get said as scum? Town? It got said.
... EGHHHH O.O
"so I feel like I'm in a good place for this game."
I mean is the expectation that there's some challenge to surmount apart from the usual "gotsa find scum"?


I don't understand the question to Skybird in 764 at all.
I asked Skybird a direct question, it's been quoted directly along with Skybird's response, and it seems completely superfluous aside from engagement maybe?
The probing on beeboy/Cakez/Axel are decent in this post but Idunno.

This is me saying I just can't read this ISO without the already-feeling that I'm in LYLO and poring over posts I already know the alignment of.
764 feels like those times that scum put down a reads-list and have to obfuscate associations. The entire post seems random and undirected with pointed questions that don't mean much.
I mean there's a town-tending on Mirhawk where their vote currently *IS* when talking to Axel

So, so far, I like Mirhawk, and I like Sir Cakes. I also really like TicTac's first post.

I am not a fan of Sakura, or Davesaz.

I agree with the Mirhawk and Sir Cakes reads at this very moment; I thought Mirhawk's aggression was pretty reasonable towards dave early game (although I don't really agree with it; dave is like that sometimes), and I like SirCakes bucking against beeboy early game, considering he was the only player who was active and aggressive at that time and bucking against it seemed like a pretty decent move if scum.

I mean I just don't fucking get it.

My modus operandi at this point is to get some thoughts on paper assuming I'm dead tomorrow, and I really tried to have an open mind here but I just DON'T GET IT.
There's so much inconsistency and lack of clarity, and combined with these easy pushes rather than trying to identify and bring strong cases which can be broken down into sensible components

I just don't get it. And I'm only halfway through Piper's ISO and I've read everything they've posted.
I get the strong feeling that they're

doing nothing

.

[True Ogre]

Egh, I thought I had a strong towntell for myself which was secret which was me alliterating things in posts but a few months after that I noticed myself doing it as scum in a resistance mishmash.
Anyway this is a post-while-reading your post and in regard to the "something else" tag.

[True Ogre]

I had this thing in the scumgame you had with you and Dave (that you won) where I felt like I connected with you like I did with ffery in Fire Emblem. That was a really interesting game (feat. Nacho and Mastina in a hydra).
I learned a probably incorrect connection townread there. She was cautious and doing her own thing but was engaging with me directly even through my own stupidity.

Connecting on a personal level in a mafia game, isn't a towntell for you. Referencing other games isn't any kind of tell either. Being right or wrong about pushes isn't a tell for you.

But pushing Mirhawk, Seniors, Ranger, Cakez and Skybird - all of whom have been or are vulnerable - without lucid explanations of that --
-- it doesn't seem like a town attitude from your hydra.

I mean I have a strong *want* to sheep you guys because I know you're both fantastic players.

[True Ogre]

I left a translation in my hydra PT:

Ok. I have:

• 3 scumleans <--
  axelrod, friendless seniors, swordsworth
  
  
• 3-5 townleans <--
  mirhawk
  , true ogre,
  the wrong lynch
  ,
  sakura hana
  , sircakez, davesaz (roughly in that order, but true ogre isn't a public townread and sircakez/davesaz are too weak to mention, so i've bolded the 3 that i'd admit to in public.)
  
• 1 current wagon that i'm okay with <--
  Friendless seniors
  
  
• 1 current wagon that i don't understand <--
  SirCakez
  
  
• 2-3 people that I'm thinking about but I want to see more from them (this is distinct from the large group of people who haven't posted enough yet or at all) <--
  beeboy, davesaz, skybird
  
  
• ~5 people that I think that if they are town they would be easy mislynches for scum. There is a little overlap here with my scumleans) <--
  snarkysnowman, spiffeh, swordsworth, axelrod, davesaz
  
  
• 2-3 people that I think will be hard for me to read based on their playstyle so far this game or previous experience with their playstyle. I expect this number to grow once more people are posting. <--
  beeboy, spiffeh, davesaz
  
  
• A bunch of people that I'm excited to be playing with. <3 <--
  you, hippyloppy, errant, cakez, tammy, tictac, mala, goodmorning, pistachi0n
  . There is no one I dislike on this playlist but these are the people that i know well enough to be excited about them.
  
• 1 awesome hydra partner <--
  nacho
  !

Well you're obviously adding the names back to that translation after the fact.
Because nobody simultaneously says "true ogre" and "you" when responding to me unless they just revised the list.

[True Ogre]

pedit: I haven't read Fire Emblem yet. I'll put it on my todo list. i'm sorry about clowntardis. Mastina had a tell on me and I was playing around with her tell. Who do you think that we should be pushing that we're not? Is there anyone we're ignoring that we shouldn't be?

I'm doing this thing reading the last bit of your posts and then responding, and then reading the rest.

But yes. I'd expect you to be on dramonic because he's unreadable to others, Axel because there was talk of it (me/nacho) earlier and essentially stronger players. I'd expect you personally to be comparing hiplop's play with the stupid fucking blitz where he tunnelled the shit out of me, and would expect either you OR nacho to have some kind of solid read on Sakura/Dwlee's slot.

Fire Emblem was like the largest Day 1 in MS history and had some pretty awesome mechanics with children/players *entering* the game.
Have fun with that :)

^me

[True Ogre]

everyone needs to adopt my playstyle: You get all your thoughts out in a few sentences instead of making huge walls of text that take 20 minutes to read and write.

I guess this isnt happening

Sorry man. I generally chill as the came goes on but it depends how not caught up I feel and who I'm responding to.

I can answer questions and stuff in sentence form, please feel free.

[True Ogre]

Reaching out to newbs who are lost in their first large is something I feel moved to do because I remember being a lost newb in my first large. I think it's really neat what newer players bring to the game because a lot of the time they are looking outside the box and they're not accustomed to site meta so they can look at things with fresh eyes and see things in a new way.

How do you feel about reaching out to Amihan as a newb and finding out it was actually Marquis?

[True Ogre]

I left a translation in my hydra PT:

Ok. I have:

• 3 scumleans <--
  axelrod, friendless seniors, swordsworth
  
  
• 3-5 townleans <--
  mirhawk
  , true ogre,
  the wrong lynch
  ,
  sakura hana
  , sircakez, davesaz (roughly in that order, but true ogre isn't a public townread and sircakez/davesaz are too weak to mention, so i've bolded the 3 that i'd admit to in public.)
  
• 1 current wagon that i'm okay with <--
  Friendless seniors
  
  
• 1 current wagon that i don't understand <--
  SirCakez
  
  
• 2-3 people that I'm thinking about but I want to see more from them (this is distinct from the large group of people who haven't posted enough yet or at all) <--
  beeboy, davesaz, skybird
  
  
• ~5 people that I think that if they are town they would be easy mislynches for scum. There is a little overlap here with my scumleans) <--
  snarkysnowman, spiffeh, swordsworth, axelrod, davesaz
  
  
• 2-3 people that I think will be hard for me to read based on their playstyle so far this game or previous experience with their playstyle. I expect this number to grow once more people are posting. <--
  beeboy, spiffeh, davesaz
  
  
• A bunch of people that I'm excited to be playing with. <3 <--
  you, hippyloppy, errant, cakez, tammy, tictac, mala, goodmorning, pistachi0n
  . There is no one I dislike on this playlist but these are the people that i know well enough to be excited about them.
  
• 1 awesome hydra partner <--
  nacho
  !

Well you're obviously adding the names back to that translation after the fact.
Because nobody simultaneously says "true ogre" and "you" when responding to me unless they just revised the list.

The "you" in this post in Nacho. I didn't know well enough yet to put you in the list of people I was excited to play with. You're not someone that I have interacted with a lot outside of mafia games yet: we haven't hydraed together or had offsite experience together, I'm not your IC, you don't hang out in sitechat, we haven't been scum together yet, we didn't have a towngame together where we were deeply in sync (like I was in a marathon game with cakez where he just kept typing what i was thinking again and gain). I feel you'd be in there by now, but you weren't yet at the time.

I considered deleting the names from that list before posting the public version because I feel like every name left off people will wonder why their name wasn't there and I'm sorry for it, even though the answer was just "don't know you well enough yet for one reason or another".

Yeah and I thought that afterward and wondered why you would simultaneously say "you" and then in the next line refer to him as "nacho".
Either way.

[True Ogre]

Because you put a particular focus on me saying I'm not "a public townread" and fail to elaborate in that post as well. If you'd already exposed what you knew to nacho it would have been something more like "ogre/talah".

Cracks appearing Ploti.

[True Ogre]

Axel's tone feels weird to me and it feels like he's spinning his wheels a lot.

I'd be up for voting that way, would you?

hippy was whiteknighting me day 1 in the blitz but then after he finished tunnelling you he started tunnelling me for no reason and it feels like he's tunnelling me for no reason again but I want to respond the way I did to RC: answer him if he says something new or interesting, otherwise just put him on mute.

*hrmgrmmmgrmmmchuckle*

And the timing of his push bothered me because I was having a health problem in the blitz and instantly he and a bunch of people jumped on me and then in this game I have a health problem and a bunch of people jump on me again and it felt like what people were reacting to was the way that health stuff affects my language use but I had that meltdown in my hydra PT instead of in public and I know correlation isn't causation but this has happened in like 10 games with various people and nobody's doing it on purpose because they don't even know what's going on with me but it leaves me feeling like I shouldn't post in public when I'm not feeling well because I get punished for it. But there's nothing I can ask anybody to do differently, I can't ask people to read my mind or to not scumhunt me, I should just...not post when I'm not feeling well because it clearly bothers me more than it should and I tend to overreact to innocuous things when I'm not feeling well.

I can see how you'd feel I'm not on your side with regard to jumping on you, but your hydra hasn't been jumped on this game.
I mean we've started with me and Seniors and a couple of others have either voted or expressed suspicion. It's not exactly a pariah situation.
Is it town jumping on you then? If so why do you feel like you do when hiplop (scum) jumped on you in that other game? Do you think hiplop's scum then?

HAVE YOUR LUNCH PLEASE IT'S A MAFIA GAME NOT AN IMPERATIVE

anyway it's late for me, see you tomorrow.

Let's do this then:

UNVOTE: The Pied Piper
VOTE: Malakittens

Come together with nacho and explain to me why Mala *isn't* scum.

^me
sorry rob15

[True Ogre]

Okay that votecount and the deadline.

I'm somewhat prepared to faith on Piper but I've done that before when Nacho was town and I had the same gut-feelings I do now.

TWL
Piper/Axel

^for lynch

Really really skeptical on a Skybird lynch.
Her/dramonic nullish

Mirhawk I might consider. tictac disappeared. Similar levels of nullscum here I think, although Mirhawk is more readable.

Cakez I like. Seniors I like. itle is town, Dwlee I have townvibes on - there was one thing Sakura said just before she left which I associated with town-sakura but it's not strong.

Dave's okay for now. He has no reason to defend Skybird, and yet is.

I'm forgetting other players. Not good. But that's what I've got currently. Happy to answer (non-wall) questions.

(tomorrow)

[True Ogre]

Okay that votecount and the deadline.

I'm somewhat prepared to faith on Piper but I've done that before when Nacho was

town

scum

[True Ogre]

Ugh we are confirmed town to each other but the only person I'd like to kill in your top 3 lynch pool today is Axel.

I'm still reading you know.

Mala/Piper are a no-go for you?
WHYYYYYY

[True Ogre]

Well I guess Mala's going nowhere today for some reason despite looking to me like a super-solid option that probably most people agree with.

I suggest we get this show on the road if you're voting Skybird because she already said she wants to claim prior to lynch.

Anyway.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: The Pied Piper

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-22 21:00:00)

[True Ogre]

also happens to skybird ffs

ok. I've played with Cakez but I haven't played with Skybird. So from my prior experience, I've scumread Cakez when it turns out he was town, I know nothing about the bird.

From a rough recollection of last time I played with Skybird, she wasn't really lynchbait but that partly because there were a few strong townies who managed to get a decent townread on her pretty quickly.
Her play was slow off the bat but there were posts that were super-authentic here and there which made a gut-read quite easy (well for me).

Not quite the same feeling here for me but the other game wasn't a large theme either. The main thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth about the push on Skybird here is the bad reasoning surrounding it.
The discussion that Marquis and Piper had about "Lovers crumbs" is stomach-churningly bad.

SO VOTE TPP CERB

only one with an actual case besides "u playbad"

You remember Ranger right? Where everyone waa sure they were scum, and I refused because I don't vote my town reads? Yeah. Same situation here. I'll be extremely surprised and duly impressed if they flip scum.

Sooooo... you're just parking on Mirhawk until one of you dies?

Seems pretty passive dude.

[True Ogre]

Who in the 5 kingdoms of hades looks for a

Lovers

crumb?

And here's you and Marquis chit-chatting about how Skybird probably picked up on it and NK'd Spiffeh for it?

I mean that's not sensible. It's fucking ridiculous.

[True Ogre]

I looked for them on Day 2 in response to seeing the flip. Marquis did too, apparently. If he knew they were lovers on day 1 and then decided to start this conversation today about how the scumteam might have known then he has balls of titanium.

This is fine. You look at it Day 2 to see if there were any crumbs to be picked up on. *shrug*

But the conversation and argument goes along the lines of

Marquis:

"Well I looked at it Day 2 and it seems like Skybird was focussing on Tammy and Spiffeh disproportionately. Therefore she might have picked up on it Day 1, otherwise, a scum-mate might have and she may have let their pickup slip and have communicated it through daychat"

Spoiler:

This is all in hindsight and I didn't pick up on it the first time. But my point earlier was that it's possible a scum player did and shared it with the team - Skybird's posts disproportionately associated Tammy and Spiffeh together way before Day 1 ended.

It's fairly pointless now, but if Skybird flips scum it's indicative that other scum players may have been subconsciously letting their knowledge of those Lovers slip through as well.

Piper:

"Mm. Mm. Mm. That makes sense, good pickup Marquis"

Spoiler:

unless we're doing nka i feel like this is pointless

A few people did nightkill analysis and some of them thought that [axel, mala, tictac] might be scum because of Spiffeh's reads, but we have a reason to believe that tictac is town.

Actually, looking back through the end of Tammy's ISO it seems she shared quite a few reads with Spiffeh so they might've had a neighbourhood.

pedit: It's a good thought, Marquis. I'll keep an eye out for similar patterns.

Do you even realise how much of a stretch that is to even hypothesise?

And now you're telling me that you and Marquis are town because it would be stupid for scum to be so... stupid?
Where are we deliniating the stupid here then? The initial hypothesis - or you saying you're town because that would be stupid for scum?
Newsflash: It's stupid for town too.
And it makes no sense as a scumtell on Skybird.

[True Ogre]

Fire Emblem was like the largest Day 1 in MS history and had some pretty awesome mechanics with children/players *entering* the game.
Have fun with that :)

I QUESTION THIS STATEMENT

What's to question?

Largest days in a Large Game
# Game Day Posts Notes
1 Fire Emblem: Awakening Mafia. Day 1 4198

I thought it was fun :)

Pretty sure it was the largest game for a bit too.

WERE YOU IN IT? O.O

[True Ogre]

Not stupid, actively playing against scum wincon. Killing Spiffeh with the intent of killing Tammy and framing the people that Spiffeh were scumreading while protecting Tammy's scumreads is the kind of brilliant scumplay that you don't gloating about in public after it's done because that ruins the point in the first place. You save it for postgame.

Ummm. The argument as presented is that Skybird is probably scum because either she or her scumteam picked up on the Lover's crumb Day 1 and decided to NK Spiffeh as opposed to Tammy to cover their tracks and score a double-kill.
Nobody's gloating about starting up a convo about having picked up on it Day 2 (but really having picked up on it Day 1) and therefore being town (because mentioning it Day 2 having picked up on it Day 1 and executing a nightkill). Unless you're saying

you

actually picked up on it Day 1?

It's not stupid as town if it helps us catch scum.

But it doesn't because the idea that scum actually picked up on that Day 1 is close to 0%.
Unless you're saying you actually picked up on it Day 1?

Later when I have time I'll go through various people's old scum PTs and see if they're crumbhunters or not. Maybe it'll lead somewhere, maybe it won't. (I successfully towncleared a bunch of people in The Odds based on this activity and then...I forgot about it in lylo because I was too sick to reread and voted wrong.)

Kay.

[True Ogre]

Circles.

[True Ogre]

I actually wish there were other people to real-time riff with in this timezone because I feel like I've bitten off a big cheese-eating bite of nachoscum, identified that it's laced with arsenic, and then looked around and realised my gingerbread house is made of the same stuff.

I tend to get invested in these things, one way or another.

[True Ogre]

Tell me to get off my arse and cook myself dinner and we're even.

VOTE: Skybird

Big faith-leap. Don't let me down, or nightkill me.

L-1

(?)

[True Ogre]

*shrug*

We need a lynch (which will be a claim and a decision) and it just depends on whether you think Piper's town now.

Considering you declined to consider Piper for lynch earlier when I asked, maybe you should just bite the bullet and ask Skybird to claim.

[True Ogre]

I'm not sure where the vote count is, but I hope I will be given the opportunity to claim before lynch.

[True Ogre]

The question actually was whether it's a valid line of thought from Piper/Marquis.

You present your case, fine. They present theirs, fine. I haven't seen you saying you've connected with them bigtime and your cases are the same.

You've been good on this before - can you give me a sentence or two on why Skybird's scum?

Idgi

[True Ogre]

Okay, thanks again.

Dwlee, what's your favourite PC game?

[True Ogre]

Not really sure what to make of that claim. I was expecting something at least semi-provable given the request to claim prior to lynch.

Why did you care whether or not you would get to claim given you've already used your shot and where you used it provides no info Skybird?

[True Ogre]

iper, don't know why you are so interested in my reads. You are scum reading me pretty hard. How much of that is because of Marquis?

If I didn't think you were scummy, I wouldn't be voting you.

Wouldn't *have been*

[True Ogre]

bbl late for work

[True Ogre]

Had a bit of a read back through yesterday after Skybird's flip, and came out of it a bit more in the Piper-town camp despite that last minute unvote. I think I'm starting to believe their own hype that a lot of their plays are pretty sloppy for scum.

Axel was actually my main concern to want to sort. The two say practically nothing ot each other all day until Axel comes in with another of those awkward full-steam-ahead cases (which was as the Skybird wagon was gaining a lot of support). I could consider tictac today but I'd have squint at it sideways I think. Last time I looked he was tending town but that was pre-flip.

Piper, what's with that Seniors vote? Kinda old-school there. Feel free to ignore this if you're doing your thing.

Seniors, who did you wig?

[True Ogre]

I believe he thinks Piper was softing a result on him by voting without an explanation. All I meant by old-school was that he'd been a popular pick for scum most of the day Day 1 and most people has subsequently turned that around to town Day 2. You give me too much credit.

Who'd you wig Seniors?

[True Ogre]

I believe he thinks Piper was softing a result on him by voting without an explanation. All I meant by old-school was that he'd been a popular pick for scum most of the day Day 1 and most people has subsequently turned that around to town Day 2. You give me too much credit.

I'd be interested in your Pipers and itlepip reads.

Likely town, and almost certainly town.

[True Ogre]

Ok so no, this seniors wagon is trash.
Tictac called marquis scum for their.skybird push, let's lynch them tyvm

Why are you so confident that Seniors is town?