A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Cerberus v666]

Hello everyone. I'm at work, but I'll catch up on everything this evening.

[Cerberus v666]

Nah we aren't lynching Mirhawk today.

This is exactly where we are. And, actually, beeboy, we are. ^^

VOTE: Mirhawk

Unless, of course, something has majorly changed in the 14 pages I haven't read yet. But yeah.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, also, as of that quote, I dislike both the beeboy slot and the FS push(the origination of it, at least, I will need to reread FS's later posts)...the whole "Oh yeah, I was buddying them, and they ignored it, and came back a bit later, because they were doing this specific maneuver" fucking reeks of bullshit.

[Cerberus v666]

Hey mala, can you fill me in on this FS/Mirhawk connection you referenced in a post I'm too lazy to find and link? It was like literally a p age ago in my catchup, but that would require that I go ack a page, read through the whole page, and then come back to the page I'm on and try to figure out where I'm at, and it's more fun to just describe the process than to actually do it.

pedit: hi cakez, ILU, <3 ^^

[Cerberus v666]

OMG i'm so close to caught up but I'm running out of steam and starting to feel guilty here at work like I should go accomplish at least one thing I'm getting paid for today.......

Also, the hydra's all scare the shit out of me if they're scum. Those particular sets of players should never be allowed to hydra. Fucking wrecking balls for town.

With that said though, there's approximately a 96% chance that The Pied Pipers are town.

pedit: Spiffeh, I've made 3 posts now. You should definitely know my alignment at this point. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Mirhawk is my second strongest scumread and I am willing to lynch him, I just feel more strongly about Skybird. I think her last post addressing me with "that's just how I play, sorry" was potentially promising? Not town, but I think if she's town she'll be able to set me right there.

Thanks for reminding me. When you made that post earlier(or maybe someone else did?) about Skybirds just dropping in and asking questions and not following up, I meant to grab that quote and just say that doing so hasn't been alignment indicative for her in my experience. It's a scummy behavior in my opinion, but it's a thing she does that I wish she would stop doing.

[Cerberus v666]

People taking about flavorclaims.
I see no reason to not do it. As I stated before, my flavor has nothing to do with my role so I kind of doubt it does for anyone else. I don't think it will gain us anything, but I don't think it will lose us anything either.

My flavor is related to my role. I recommend against.

[Cerberus v666]

Nah we aren't lynching Mirhawk today.

Yay and I'm 100% caught up anyone can ask me anything and I'll have an informed opinion so you guys should totally ask me things!

Also, that took 3 hours? wtf? Man. I'm falling off, or else this game is especially wall filled. I can't believe I only read like 300 posts an hour. 5 a minute? more than 12 seconds each? Super lame show by me.

dramonic, when are you going to start playing? Are you happy having opinions that nobody cares about?

[Cerberus v666]

Mirhawk, I believe the line of reasoning you're questioning goes like this.

You are scum. You believe it is unlikely for there to be more than a single miller in a game(I think this is untrue, but I've been playing in games ran by crazy people often enough lately that I'm willing to accept a lot in terms of weird setup situations).

As scum, you see a miller claim, and then you see a counter claim. You know neither party claiming is a member of your team, and you believe it is unlikely for third party to CC a miller. Therefore, given your belief that it is unlikely for there to be two millers in the game, you deduce that the second claim must be a lie/gambit of some sort.

The logic is sound, once you make those assumptions I outlined in the first paragraph.

[Cerberus v666]

Then why were you voting for pistachion because of the counter claim if you knew Amihan was lying?

Because I might have been wrong and I wanted her response first.

Is there some kind of reason my vote shouldn't have been there?

Because YOU KNEW Amihan was lying lol

This, btw, is more damning than cakez' point in my opinion. It does not make sense for you to join in on the wagon of pistachion, if there is in fact no counterclaim from your perspective.

I find myself doubting the analytical skills of anyone who looked at that sequence of events involving you and came out on the other side feeling as though you had done nothing weird.

[Cerberus v666]

I don't think the third party thing is relevant though, cakez, now that I think about it. I put it in there because it's another alignment, etc, but the way third party would act in this situation doesn't make it any more or less likely that the claim was a lie. All it means is that once you know the claim is a lie, it is improbable that the slot making the cc is third party.

[Cerberus v666]

@Cerb
What would I stand to gain from that scenario?

There is nothing for you to gain in any of these scenarios. This isn't an accusation of you having a scum agenda which that interaction revealed. I'm not laying out a plot revealed through a mistake you made. This is about the hint of knowledge which you would not have if town, actions taken because of that knowledge, and contradictions between your expressed thoughts at the time and the way you behaved.

pedit: Yes, what Sakura said. I haven't actually looked at your iso yet Mirhawk, I JUST read the game, but I know the things you were/are saying just don't make sense coming from someone who sincerely believed that the counterclaim was a lie, and if you DIDN'T sincerely believe it was a lie, then why are you lying about that?

[Cerberus v666]

Mirhawk: why were you concerned with flipping one or both of them, if you sincerely believed the counterclaim to be fake?

pedit: Spiffeh, skybird is skybird, why is this skybird scum in any way that skybird isn't normally?

I agree on swordsworth being scummy, btw. I don't agree that we should be focusing our conversation on him when he's not even here though.

[Cerberus v666]

As much as I don't have a read on Skybird a Sword lynch is 10x better than Mirhawk one.

A Seniors lynch is by far the best lynch all around though.

I don't follow your first sentence. In what way is your lack of a read on skybird relevant to the idea of a sword lynch being superior to a Mirhawk lynch?

[Cerberus v666]

As much as I don't have a read on Skybird a Sword lynch is 10x better than Mirhawk one.

A Seniors lynch is by far the best lynch all around though.

I don't follow your first sentence. In what way is your lack of a read on skybird relevant to the idea of a sword lynch being superior to a Mirhawk lynch?

I was responding to a spiff post that said we should lynch skybird and sword.

Yes, I understand that. Your sentence construction is still nonsensical. Is this purely a poorly worded post? Did you intend something along the line of "I don't have a skybird read. A sword lynch is 10x better than a Mirhawk one.", but you missed the necessary punctuation to communicate that, and instead came up with that jarbled sentence that makes it sound as though there's some connection between your skybird read and those other two slots?

[Cerberus v666]

Mirhawk, it is perfectly reasonable for town!Mirhawk to have looked at the situation and come to the conclusion that one of the two claims is likely fake. Your CERTAINTY of that, though, was far greater than an uninformed slot SHOULD have had. Perhaps you're just confident, but that confidence looks like the sort of confidence a scum slot can have when they "fight" against a mislynch because they KNOW the person is town.

Do you follow that?

Alright, now the lying idea. If you believed that there was truly no counterclaim to pistachion's claim, why did you vote for her? Your response to this was that you figured the only way to sort out whether the counterclaim was true or not was to flip one or both of those slots claiming miller. Your response does NOT address the question. You were confident it was a fake counterclaim. There is no reason to vote pistachion, or to attempt to flip EITHER party on the basis of that alone. Therefore, either you are lying about your belief that it was fake at that time, OR you are lying about what your reason was for continuing to vote pistachion.

If there's another explanation, I would be glad to hear it.

[Cerberus v666]

Axelrod, I think everything through. Too far through, generally speaking. Your point that scum!Mirhawk has little to nothing to gain from reacting this way in this circumstance is valid, but that doesn't change the fact that he did act in a fashion which, contrary to your beliefs, really does not make any sense. If you have ANY doubt about a counterclaim, you don't lynch the fucking original claim. How backwards is that?

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah,I'm not a huge fan of Sakura's logic here. When I said "what Sakura said" earlier i was referring to the exact post by you that she was quoting more than anything else.

I don't think he was actually "trying" to accomplish anything in particular. Assuming Mirhawk is scum, this was purely a case where scum knowledge informed behavior.

pedit: I'm going to need to check your iso to confirm that Mirhawk. I believe I recall a greater degree of suspicion of the counterclaim than was reasonable, in my opinion, from the very beginning, coupled with an expression of uncertainty about the situation and a terrible "ah fuck it" vote.

[Cerberus v666]

Axelrod, I think everything through. Too far through, generally speaking. Your point that scum!Mirhawk has little to nothing to gain from reacting this way in this circumstance is valid, but that doesn't change the fact that he did act in a fashion which, contrary to your beliefs, really does not make any sense. If you have ANY doubt about a counterclaim, you don't lynch the fucking original claim. How backwards is that?

How so? I strongly disagree with your statement that you don't lynch the original claimant if you have ANY doubts about the counter. That's kind of case by case, isn't it? There will be plenty of times when I'm not sure who to believe, but I believe one of them needs to get lynched.

That means you have doubts about both. He didn't say that. He specifically had doubts about the counterclaim.

[Cerberus v666]

I've read the whole thread Mirhawk. Your point about Ami "dodging" is terrible. Her counterclaim was clear, there is no universe in which she could get away with saying "naw guys, you misunderstood me, I NEVER said i was a miller".

[Cerberus v666]

I've read the whole thread Mirhawk. Your point about Ami "dodging" is terrible. Her counterclaim was clear, there is no universe in which she could get away with saying "naw guys, you misunderstood me, I NEVER said i was a miller".

If her counterclaim is so fucking clear then at what point did she lie about her role?

She didn't. It never happened.

I'm assuming she was worried that someone here thought that lynch all liars isn't stupid, but the point is it stood out to me.

Whats next? are you going to claim town players can't notice things like that?

???? When did I say she lied about her role?

Ami(and mir): whether or not you were dodging is irrelevant. The point of the dodging accusation was that it somehow made Mirhawk think that you were deliberately trying to create a situation where you could claim that you hadn't ever claimed miller, when in fact you had clearly claimed miller. You didn't even argue that you didn't claim miller, you just said it was a gambit you tried.

I think this is a dumb semantic argument now. Your arguments are sophistry and I'm not going to waste my time on them.

I maintain that your behavior was scummy, Mirhawk.

[Cerberus v666]

Dram, would you please tell me why podo, davesaz, and axelrod are scum? And why seniors are policy?

[Cerberus v666]

EP: there was nothing else notable in my initial read through other than the whole fake claim snafu, and of the things which were connected to said snafu, Mirhawks post IMMEDIATELY made me suspicious of them. That's a weird sensation for me, it's not normal, but I read the couple posts leading up to him voting, and immediately felt like the slot was terrible.

I asked people to ask me questions. They can do that if they want to, and I'll answer.

Also, I might be attempting to be less domineering in this game than i usually am. I've found that I tend to drive all the discussion early game, and it's not very useful much of the time because I'm just kinda nosing around and trying to figure out people, but it all turns into an extended conversation about my slot to some extent.

[Cerberus v666]

Geez I suck at engaging scum reads.

Ok...I side-eye any sort of self-deprecating post in this game.

How do you react to self-congratulatory posts?

[Cerberus v666]

@Cerberus: hi Cerberus and belatedly welcome to the game!

Do you think beeboy is scum or just bad town?

96% is very specific number. How did you arrive at it?

What's your read on Cakez?

Hi. 96% is a number greater than 90% and less than 98% which I decided sounded best. Anything 98%+ indicates a degree of certainty I simply don't have, but I'm PRETTY certain you're town, thus 90%+. Everything about the particular points you've addressed and the probes you've made, coupled with the fact that you actually disliked mirhawks play during the whole miller claim situation, makes me feel I can see you scumhunting and sorting people.

I'm concerned he might be scum, but bad town is a possibility. I'm not experienced with him at all, so it's difficult for me to say no, there's no way beeboy would/wouldn't behave this way as town/scum.

Hmm. Cakez umm. I need to look at him more closely? I'm being pretty floaty this game. I pushed the one thing that was a red flag for me, and nothing else so far has really jumped out at me without requiring in depth analysis I haven't done for anything in this game yet.

[Cerberus v666]

{Tammy, SirCakez}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird}
{dramonic, Axelrod}
{beeboy, Friendless Seniors}
{Spiffeh}

One.

Where are you in the thread Ranger?

Also, HI!

[Cerberus v666]

Because I'm kinda calling BS on ANY read on me from you considering my first post in the game wasn't until page 34, and my relative silence in recent pages...

[Cerberus v666]

vote: pied piper

the name makes my skin crawl

18 pages in twenty four hours! HOLY MOLY!

Looks good but needs more from RVS+bitching about too much content in too little time?

:-/

Ranger......I don't want you to be scum. I want the useless Swordsworth slot to be replaced by a good player, and to find out he's town...but I'm not following things here.

I'll try to reserve judgement till you get to the party where you actually read my posts.

[Cerberus v666]

Looks good but needs more from RVS

I'll just stop you there and answer "yes".
If you need a reminder as to

why

, you're talking to

Ranger

. About

the RVS

. That should sufficiently answer your call.

Ugh. We had this argument in Suikoden didn't we?

*throws up hands in exasperation*

Whatever dudette. Do yo thang.

[Cerberus v666]

Snarky, i can't imagine why you wouldn't be vigged tonight. Maybe if you actually gave people a reason to townread you and think you wouldn't be an unreadable slot that has produced no content in the late game, people wouldn't consider vigging you to be a good idea.

[Cerberus v666]

By the way, will switch to Mirhawk if there's more votes there, if that wasn't obvious.

Around now is probably a good time to begin consolidating our lynch. It should be one of those two, but we need to make up our minds as to which.

Yuck no. You aren't nearly town enough to tell us who the lynch pool is.

Aren't you supposed to be on my wagon? Or are you just staying on seniors to make sure the skybird wagon isn't bigger than it?

How much of your scum read(because this is CLEARLY a scum read being expressed) on ranger comes from her scum read on you, and how much from evaluating her play? In short, what part of her play do you find scummy?

[Cerberus v666]

How much of your scum read(because this is CLEARLY a scum read being expressed) on ranger comes from her scum read on you, and how much from evaluating her play? In short, what part of her play do you find scummy?

I think Ranger is being manipulative to get who she wants lynched. This isn't even my problem with Ranger, as town do this too.

She's slotted every person into what appears to be a fairly solid read with little to no justification for almost any of them.

The only justified reads are (conveniently) the ones that happen to be her highest scumreads once she's caught up, which also (conveniently) happen to be two of the biggest wagons.

The whole thing looks fake to be honest. Kind of like the final reads were decided on before she even started.

I believe she said she wouldn't be offering reasons along with her reads list, but that we were welcome to ask her for details. The point that she's slotted people in places with no explanation is worthless. Nothing about her catchup seems "fake" to me except the fact that the two biggest wagons are also her two strongest scum reads. That does read as contrived, but it could also simply mean that those two slots have done a number of things which are objectively scummy/anti-town, or that she was swayed by the arguments people have made about those slots which she read as she was catching up.

The accusation that she's voting a certain way specifically to ensure the skybird wagon doesn't have more votes than the FS wagon is dumb. Neither wagon has enough votes for them to be at a tipping point, and voting in that fashion isn't alignment indicative. I'd be more inclined to think that if she has indicated a greater desire to lynch you than FS(which I dont' think she has) but she is voting FS, it's to see how people deal with the situation with the various wagons.

For example, before you made that accusation, i was considering voting skybird SOLELY to see who moved where in response to skybirds wagon taking the lead...but that particular ploy has lost it's value given that you just made scum more wary of individuals watching wagon movements in this situation for that exact reason.

I need to interact with people other than you/FS, right now the game is revolving around too few people for me to be comfortable with the game state, but I feel as though my initial read through was too hasty and I don't have a firm grasp on the nuances of things.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, there's nothing to be sorry about there. I'm pointing out that there are town motivations to controlling wagon sizes deliberately. That's all.

[Cerberus v666]

I am scumreading the hell out of Ranger's entrance and progression.

Marquis, you're not in this game, so you just alt-slipped.

[Cerberus v666]

I am scumreading the hell out of Ranger's entrance and progression.

Sorry guys it happened again. This was my post.

It came up in Newbie 1682, but this is Marquis's computer which I use often. We're friends in real life.

Hmm.

Tell Marquis Cerb says hi. That is all.

Unfortunately, that does mean this means a lot less to me than if I were to have discovered that you're an alt of Marquis. :p So, elaborate please.

[Cerberus v666]

Correction, Newbie 1681.

Personally I think it is unrelated to the game and I want to move on from the error. Meaning that I would vote Ranger now if I didn't consider the Skybird wagon already a success.

Sure. You misunderstand my question though. I don't care about how strong the read is as much as I care about *why* you're scumreading their entrance.

For my part, btw, I think someone summed it up nicely: Ranger could likely duplicate that particular sort of entrance as scum, so the entrance as a whole is null. The remainder of the slots play is what's significant. I'm interested in anyone who gained a strong read one way or the other solely from her entrance.

I know some people were townreading her for it, and I'd also like them to elaborate on why they feel that way.

pedit: Ah.

[Cerberus v666]

Liking the point about Mir being too certain about Amihan gambiting.

Ya know, I'll be honest, I don't see much difference between podoboq's 1198, which you were okay with, and the other posts people made suspecting you were scum because of the way you reacted during that time, which you weren't okay with.

Podoboq specifically said you, as scum, know that neither one of them are town, therefore you acted in *this* way.

The only difference between what he said, and what the people you have been disagreeing with/seem to think are being unreasonable said, is they went a bit further in their analysis of the situation. Instead of just saying you appear to be scum "trying to stir the pot' they evaluate the situation and the thought process a scum slot might have in more detail.

Is the problem you have really with the fact that some people attributed a fairly common sense thought process to you(that is, you would assume the first miller claim is real, and the second either real or a gambit by town, and might conclude that a second miller is unlikely, therefore it's a gambit), rather than just being vague about it?

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: ranger

this is scum, actually.

How does this make you feel beeboy?

My biggest problem with Friendless Seniors is that both heads are writing me off as town fsr

When I don't even think I've been particularly obvtown this game

You really haven't been. :-/ You should fix that.

[Cerberus v666]

How does this make you feel beeboy?

Bad

Maybe elaborate more? Does it make you second guess your scum read on either slot? Does it make you think seniors is just bussing ranger? Does it do something else?

[Cerberus v666]

Ok ya Seniors is still scum. Mirhawk has just kind of vanished too.
Still standing by Ranger townread, her entrance/catchup felt super natural and open.
Why is everyone fighting with Tammy she's obvtown stop.

Am I scum or town? Curious. Also kinda want to see something happen in this game but I don't have the time to drive anything forward myself.

[Cerberus v666]

Town-ish. You're less active then usual but this game is also just fairly inactive so that might be why. Your posts have been okay but nothing that reeked town.

So you associate inactivity on my part with scum play? Or do you just associate a high degree of activity with my town play?

[Cerberus v666]

High degree of activity with town play

Hmm. This is kinda weird. This was a bit of a test, because I haven't actually been able to reread your ISO like I need to do, but I believe you and pistachion are the only people in this game who've played with me as scum, and you played with me in a scum game where I was terribly inactive by my standards. I feel like it's more likely that town!you would see my inactivity and pounce on it as a scum tell, rather than making excuses for me. Or that you'd point out/note the flurry of activity that marked my entrance to go along with your comment about the slow pace of the game, to support that town read.



I'm disappointed. I wanted to see a response that screamed town to me, so i could avoid reading your ISO, but I'm going to have to now. :-/

[Cerberus v666]

How did Ranger suddenly become the town leader?

When I became super-confident in Mirhawk and Friendless Seniors.

Also by becoming obviously town.

Please include the post # part of the quote k? :-/

[Cerberus v666]

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq, Sakura Hana, davesaz}
{Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, dramonic, SnarkySnowman}
{Axelrod, True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

The relevant changes: davesaz has become more town, and I think I've found a tier SnarkySnowman best fits in: the nulltown one. Also merged the Axelrod and True Ogre tiers; it's both going in their respective directions. (It's best described as a nullscum tier.)

Mind giving reasons for the relevant changes? Also, you don't think moving me up to whatever your top tier of townieness is isn't relevant!!

I'm very important Ranger.

Clearly a VIP.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh. Never mind. I thought I was in the right below top tier.

Well, damnit, i don't really care then. I was just outraged at not being considered important.

I'll pick your brain about someone who I think is scum outside of mirhawk when I actually develop some reads.

[Cerberus v666]

^^^ this flurry of posts is town.
Cerb where's the ISO you said you would do on me :/

I never said when I'd do it, I just said I'd have to do one. :/

Tonight is date night. Won't happen till tomorrow evening at the earliest. Sorry.

[Cerberus v666]

We could have up to 2 fully functioning wagons form and dissipate and reform by deadline, based on my personal experience here. It's hard, but doable.

Also, I'm not fond of how ranger, after saying she was okay with either party being lynched, is the move which throws one wagon clearly ahead of the other, rather than doing as she said she would and moving if it seemed the consensus was a lynch on the other.

[Cerberus v666]

That's just not true though Ranger? Look at the votes. Your vote is what caused the votes to swing one way. It was 5:4 one way, you switched wagons and flipped it the other way. And NOW 2 votes have come to seniors since then.

You were the pivot there.

[Cerberus v666]

These wagons are all shit, except mirhawk, and even that might be shit.

[Cerberus v666]

No, I'm saying that's all you got. And I totally disagree that 723 was scummy in the first place.

EP, you are better than this. If I was really scum, you should be able to come up with much more evidence.

Oh? Really? What have you done that you think is so scummy that it would be easy for EP to find evidence?

[Cerberus v666]

No, I'm saying that's all you got. And I totally disagree that 723 was scummy in the first place.

EP, you are better than this. If I was really scum, you should be able to come up with much more evidence.

Oh? Really? What have you done that you think is so scummy that it would be easy for EP to find evidence?

Cerb

what are you talking about?

-EP

Skybird asserted that if she were scum it would be way easier for you to find more evidence, because you're better than this. That implies that within her existing posts there is enough scumminess for you to make a better push than this, OR that you should know better because you haven't found enough scummy things to push her on.

I was really interested to see if she would clarify that she meant the latter, rather than the former(since clearly she did mean the latter, but if scum she might defend the wrong way), but you kinda called attention to it and now she can just wtf me.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh my god skybird post is so scum as well.

Explain.

You are self proclaiming you are always scum read. That is a terrible defense

In spite of my suspicion of her, I must confirm that is indeed a fact, no matter how bad a defense it is.

[Cerberus v666]

hello, this is EP.
something very emotionally difficult has happened to me and I hope you understand that I don't think i'll be able to really spend time on mafia for the time being.
thank you for being understanding, especially to hiplop.
I will be more than willing to do an awesome catchup when I get back.

<3 I hope everythings alright. I know we're not exactly close friends, but I love and want to help everyone so...just know that I'm here if you ever feel you need to talk.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. That should have probably been a PM.

Sorry all.

Okay, so, umm, yeah, I haven't done anything I wanted to do for this game. But I expect to basically have infinite free time over the next *time until deadline* so, I'll start working on that.

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: Ranger

I believe that's only

L-2

surprisingly enough. As far as I can tell there are now 9 votes on Ranger and 6 on Seniors with 11 to lynch.

Mirhawk: THE WRONG LYNCH, The Pied Piper, Cerberus v666 (3)
tictac: SirCakez (1)
SirCakez: Tammy (1)
Skybird: pistachi0n (1)
Axelrod: dramonic (1)

In case it wasn't clear, we are now in "scramble for a lynch before deadline" mode

Meaning these people need to pick a side (*coughvoteforRangercough*) if they haven't already.

Or face my wrath if we run out of time

Actually I think it's more like:

Mirhawk:

THE WRONG LYNCH, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)

SirCakez:

Tammy (1)

Skybird:

pistachi0n (1)

Axelrod:

dramonic (1)

Cakez went to Mirhawk in 1904 and Pied Piper went to Ranger in 1919.

But yes the people who need to vote or indicate a preference one way or another are:

TWL, Cerberus, Cakez, Tammy, pistachion, dramonic

Or explain why they'd prefer to force no-lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-06 21:00:00)

The ranger wagon is absurd and terrible. That would be why I'm not supporting it. Not agreeing with the belief that FS has had scummy posting is why I'm not on that wagon.

You've created a situation where you have two people I believe to be town on the verge of being lynched. A no lynch isn't better than that, but I'm certainly not going to pile on and build momentum towards either one.

Also, ranger, I'm sad that you think I'm so bad at scum that I couldn't fake 875. Was Open 623 that terrible? I was super distracted and not invested in that game at all, if that makes it any better.

[Cerberus v666]

Actually, let's rephrase that. I believe ranger is town. I lack sufficient cause to believe FS is scum. That's a very important distinction to make.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, also, ranger...please explain what about the posts of FS you've seen makes you feel they're scum. Or direct me to where you EXPLAINED instead of just linking posts and saYing they're scummy. I'll read it all this time too.

[Cerberus v666]

You too TPP. About the FS thing. Convince me? Or show me where you already made a convincing case which I failed to absorb because I'm not giving this game 100% because I suck. :/

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, also, ranger...please explain what about the posts of FS you've seen makes you feel they're scum.

Ahg. If you had asked this earlier, I would have done it, but I don't have the time anymore.

I don't even think I have the time to track down the explanations, some from me, some from others, on them. I'm sorry, I know I should especially given the current wagons, but I really

do

need to log off. :/

It's fine. Blah. My fault for letting myself get so disengaged here.

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: Friendless Seniors L-4

There's still time to make this happen.

Well the hero returneth.

What do you mean "There's still time" when you yourself voted Ranger before I left for work today, tipping the balance? Seriously.

VOTE: Seniors

Also, Cerberus, I don't think you've as much as sneezed in my direction before. Saying that I created two wagons you're not interested in is crap and I think you know that.

*grgrrrgrrrrhmmm*

Umm, clearly? I wasn't referring to you specifically. I was referring to the game as a whole.

You haven't done anything notable to be a driving force behind either of these wagons, and I can't imagine why you'd think I would believe you were to blame for them. If anything, I blame myself for not being involved enough to find alternatives that I actually believe to be scummy.

[Cerberus v666]

Actually, let's rephrase that. I believe ranger is town. I lack sufficient cause to believe FS is scum. That's a very important distinction to make.

So your choice is no-lynch.
Seems to favour scum, no?

The ranger wagon is absurd and terrible. That would be why I'm not supporting it. Not agreeing with the belief that FS has had scummy posting is why I'm not on that wagon.

You've created a situation where you have two people I believe to be town on the verge of being lynched.

A no lynch isn't better than that, but I'm certainly not going to pile on and build momentum towards either one.

Also, ranger, I'm sad that you think I'm so bad at scum that I couldn't fake 875. Was Open 623 that terrible? I was super distracted and not invested in that game at all, if that makes it any better.

[Cerberus v666]

I couldn't care less what your read on me is.

I do care that you seem to be trying to look busy right now with the oh noes people are forcing a no lynch. I know you're experienced at this game, so I don't believe for one second it's a genuine fear, I think you're trying to look busy.

I don't believe for one second you see all these people posting in the game being very aware of deadline, talking about and to the major wagons, and your big fear is we are going to no lynch. I don't believe that for a second.

And that is a pretty gross exaggeration. I am not overprinting, sure, but you have my input and a heck of enough from me to read me on. You don't need me to lead this game day one, that's never been my forte.

Seconded.

[Cerberus v666]

I am the person in this game most likely to be here at deadline. Always. No matter what. In every game ever. But I'm not going to vote for someone who I don't have cause to think is scum, until, quite literally, 5 minutes before deadlne.

And I'll be here at that time.

And eh, sure, it's not unique, but it's still true. The shade you're would casting is wasted on me though. I would advise looking elsewhere if you want to find someone who you can actually get lynched at some point in the future. :p

[Cerberus v666]

Ugh I hate mobile posting. I always think of things to add and forget to remove words.

[Cerberus v666]

Or people could just unvote the Rangers wagon, and that would represent the same pressure as actually voting for FS, without the risk of a hammer before we get a claim. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Also, again, TPP, could you point me to where/why you decided FS was scum? Your posts are quite lengthy and cover a lot of topics, I'm having trouble finding the points you made which related to FS.

[Cerberus v666]

Which part of the situation is what you were afraid was going to happen?

[Cerberus v666]

Ah. Well, if the other option was still Mirhawk, rather than Ranger, I would be quite willing to hop over to it after putting him at L-1, but...that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Cerberus v666]

Which part of the situation is what you were afraid was going to happen?

That we were going to go right down to the last second without any kind of claim, leaving essentially zero time to change direction if the claim (if it comes at all) turns out to be something we don't want to lynch.

Just a point. In this situation, what does scum do? They fake claim something town is not going to want to lynch/something which might draw out a counterclaim. Once the timer got below 2 days, based on the activity of this game, there was no claim FS could give that would stop the wagon, because any claim that's good enough to stop the wagon is a great claim for scum to make to buy a day.

[Cerberus v666]

Or people could just unvote the Rangers wagon, and that would represent the same pressure as actually voting for FS, without the risk of a hammer before we get a claim. ^^

Intent to L-1 sounds odd. Is that something people normally do? I thought anyone who hammers without giving intent is understood to be claiming scum, so anyone who hammers gets auto-lynched by town the next day.

This is my first large game, so I don't know the etiquette here. As long as we put the correct pressure on FS to denote that we intend to lynch, I don't care how we do that.

Oh, I wasn't saying the intent to L-1 thing(though that may be a thing in certain mechanical situations, such as where double votes may be expected). I was saying if there is no pressure on Ranger, so it's clear that the lynch will be defaulting on FS, that has the same "pressure" effect as putting them at L-1, because either way, if they show up and see the situation, they will realize that nobody else will be getting lynched today.

Which part of the situation is what you were afraid was going to happen?

That we were going to go right down to the last second without any kind of claim, leaving essentially zero time to change direction if the claim (if it comes at all) turns out to be something we don't want to lynch.

Just a point. In this situation, what does scum do? They fake claim something town is not going to want to lynch/something which might draw out a counterclaim. Once the timer got below 2 days, based on the activity of this game, there was no claim FS could give that would stop the wagon, because any claim that's good enough to stop the wagon is a great claim for scum to make to buy a day.

Exactly. FS can't really save themselves, but in the case that they are actually town, they can provide some last words before the hammer.

I would highly suggest nobody counterclaim whatever FS claims.

Oh, I should probably say something: I have knowledge of the existence of flavor which is tied to my own, which, mechanically, gives me cause to believe that that slot would be town.

If he happens to claim that particular flavor, I won't be hammering. Regardless of all other factors.

Just thought I should probably mention, since I know I claimed that it was guaranteed that I would be here(and I will be) but in that circumstance I *will* prefer a no lynch over knowingly lynching town.

[Cerberus v666]

I think people have been casing you for like 6 days, i just haven't been paying enough attention to the cases to absorb the details and reiterate them for you.

Fruit vendor.

*sigh*

Testable claim. ;-/

NAI claim? Scum fruit vendor+ other stuff? Functionally a goon, but with neutral utility that might make town think he's scum?

@Rob13: In your games, can the member of the scum team who sends in a kill ALSO use another power they have, or is the kill the only action they may take?

[Cerberus v666]

What is fruit vendor? I would check myself, but I'm busy looking for cases against FS.

It's a role that targets another player at night. In the morning the player receives a message that they have received "fruit". Which basically just indicated they were visited by someone. They don't know who visited them, and the fruit doesn't actually exist or do anything. In this case, the "fruit" is a "wig".

Basically, it's a safe fake claim for any scum role that has a targeted effect that doesn't affect the targets actions, like a scum rolecop for example.

hiplop, shaddup. You've never seen scum!me, you have no idea. I love you man, but yeah.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh right I was going to comment on that.

Because Ranger finds shitty play town.

Are you referring to my shitty play? Naw. She just knows me.

[Cerberus v666]

we give wigs to people
people are informed they get the wigs
wigs don't do anything

...so we can easily test this by having FS target the most agreed upon member of town during n1. How do we proceed here? This seems like a bad claim for scum to make.

It's not great, sure, except for the conversation we JUST had about optimal scum play in this situation. The WiFoM is real.

[Cerberus v666]

What is fruit vendor? I would check myself, but I'm busy looking for cases against FS.

It's a role that targets another player at night. In the morning the player receives a message that they have received "fruit". Which basically just indicated they were visited by someone. They don't know who visited them, and the fruit doesn't actually exist or do anything. In this case, the "fruit" is a "wig".

Basically, it's a safe fake claim for any scum role that has a targeted effect that doesn't affect the targets actions, like a scum rolecop for example.

hiplop, shaddup. You've never seen scum!me, you have no idea. I love you man, but yeah.

Please explain this. How is it a "safe" claim when it's a role that can be tested? Sorry that I need a little carrying right now.

Sorry, I misspoke. It's not a safe "fake" claim. It's a power to give to a scum slot that would make town believe they're not scum that is "safe" for them to claim. That's all. Goon with neutral utility power in the hands of town, that makes people think they're definitely not scum because why would there be a scum fruit vendor.

[Cerberus v666]

Sorry EP. The right people aren't here, the ones who initiated the attacks on you. :-/

And pfft, you have some experience with me. I'm just covering all the possible bases and reasons why the claim makes sense for both town and scum, rather than blindly going "herp derp, never gonna be a scum fruit vendor, guess he's conftown!"

[Cerberus v666]

I agree that there COULD be a scum fruit vendor. But has anyone here ever actually seen one?

That's a meaningless question. The presence or lack of a role in the past does not mean it was not put in this game. Period. This is why meta is shit. Past behavior does not indicate future behavior.

[Cerberus v666]

nope, I'm not pushing your wagon. I'd prefer that we lynch mirhawk. ^^ I will admit to some bias in knowing that if you end up not getting lynched, we're just going to default to ranger, and I'm 95% certain Ranger is town, whereas I'm absolutely uncertain about you.

[Cerberus v666]

like, imagine if we had claimed cop.

and cerb was giving you guys this answer.

you'd lynch him in a minute.

pedit: you're scum cerb. Give it a break. You're doing a really shitty version of a distance from our wagon

If you had claimed cop I would tell the town it's really stupid to lynch a claimed cop on D1, and we should lynch you in Lylo if you were still alive then.

[Cerberus v666]

(btw, you all realize this interaction FS is having with me is SUPER FUCKING TOWN RIGHT? I'm not being sarcastic. I don't know why scum him would do this, because there's literally no chance of a wagon being shifted over to me, of all people, at this stage in the day)

Ranger is town because ranger is town. I could look through her iso and tell you why, but it's fundamentally the fact that her flow and reasoning feels like it comes from a town place, as it were. Which is the sort of mystical bullshit I HATE myself, but considering I haven't bothered doing ANY isoing at all, it's really the best I can do.

pedit: My point is you were trying to say I'm acting like scum, when you don't know how I would act as scum, hiplop. that's all. If you DID know how I acted as scum, I would have instead said "yes, but I'm super self aware of my meta(which btw, this game is playing to my limited scum meta to a T, because just like that game, I have other things going on that are kidna making this take a back seat), and were i actually scum i would be playing to my actual town meta. Which is all fluffy and super easy to do as scum, ESPECIALLY D1. ^^)

[Cerberus v666]

And honestly, at this point you guys should all vote somewhere that's not ranger or FS. Just saying. ^^ We have like 6 hours? How many people do we have here?

[Cerberus v666]

FS, Podo, mirhawk, axel, TO, who are you all willing to vote for who is NOT FS/Ranger? Because they're both town.

[Cerberus v666]

(inb4 I get accused on WK'ing now)

pedit: DAMNIT, not inb4.

[Cerberus v666]

What's not THAT hard to detect?

And oh yeah? So you know that in the one scumgame I was actually active in, I umm...was way different from this, though hydraed with Drixx?

And in the other scumgame, the one I was *inactive* in, was quite similar to this one? Then alright, default to my other answer, the one I give to people who actually are aware of any sort of meta for me and try to use it to paint me as scum.

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: tictac

watch ranger squirm trying to bus their buddy.

They have a short ISO right?

let me look. brb.

[Cerberus v666]

Ranger is not town.

Theoretically I would go for either Cakez or Skybird, but I'm not going to because 11 votes in five hours isn't going to happen.

Why not? I'll have you know, where I came from all games have 48h day phases! People can do it! Just because they're lazy here doesn't mean it can't happen!

[Cerberus v666]

My wagon picked up HELLA steam after rangers did. I'm a pseudo-counterwagon

Obviously, but that doesn't tell us if it's scum driven or town driven.

Rangers entrance was very polarizing. Some people loved it, some hated it. The ones who hated it voted her. The ones who loved it voted you, because they think she's town and she thinks you're scum, and it has the added benefit of protecting their townread.

Also, I'm reading through tictac. I see what appears to be scumhunting. I'll need to read in context to see if he's doing anything quirky or weird, but I don't see it? :-/

[Cerberus v666]

I will HAPPILY vote dramonic or snarkysnowman. That way FS can confirm their role by targeting someone we trust as town.

Eh, Dram and snowman ARE better vigs than lynches, it has been said before and is a true statement. Lynches are for people who are going to actually fight back and have information flow in the event they're scum, not ones who the scum will just happily bus and give you nothing on.

With that said, I have no objection to lynching either. In a world of uncertainty, where two people I'm townreading are the lynches on the table, I'll gladly remove a lurker.

I've never played in a Rob13 game before. Does he like vigs? Is that a *thing* we should even be thinking about when we're talking about those slots?

[Cerberus v666]

oh wait. Drams 1039 really sucked. podoboq, will you be around at deadline?

[Cerberus v666]

Man, dram is at 0 votes, and there are only 4 of us here talking.

IF you are present and following along, please speak up.

[Cerberus v666]

I've never played in a Rob13 game before. Does he like vigs? Is that a *thing* we should even be thinking about when we're talking about those slots?

"meta is bad what happens in the past doesn't impact the future"

-cerberus666

are you even trying to be consistent

Nope, not at all. This is all off the top of my head. I do firmly believe meta is dumb for scumreading/townreading people, because good players can and will duplicate the meta that is appropriate to the situation. Mod meta though? That's a different thing. The past does not influence the future, objectively speaking, but people DO have personal biases for/against roles(ex. Varsoon doesn't like cops).

[Cerberus v666]

like cerb you have quantifiable reasons I'm town

and your ranger-town shtick is pathetic and fake.

Yes, I have quantifiable reasons you're town from this last hours interactions, yes sir I do.

So I'm not going to be voting you.

I have, well. I have, imo, a feel for the pulse of ranger(really, I do!) and her heartbeat is not that of scum!

Man. You know me hippy. Like, hard defending someone off a nebulous townread I can't substantiate is NOT something I do. Neither is voting someone without a reason to actually scumread them. Why the fuck would I go out of my way to hard defend ranger right now, when I could just be silent and let you get taken into the night? Knowing that this game does have people who know me, who'll be like oh hey, yeah, Cerb is playing in a wholly unnatural fashion for him!

[Cerberus v666]

Do you not think there are scum within dram/snarky? Or is that as second pool with at least one scum?

[Cerberus v666]

@Spiffah
By my count both FS and Ranger are at 8 votes.

Also I agree with everything in 2125.

YA, I think that's correct. It was 9/7, then podo moved to ranger.

[Cerberus v666]

HIPLOP'S NOT GONNA FUCKING FAKE CLAIM FRUIT VENDOR AS SCUM

FRIENDLESS SENIORS IS TOWN

VOTE FOR RANGER

I KNOW(PROBABLY), AND HE WOULDN'T ATTACK ME THE WAY HE IS AS SCUM, BUT RANGER IS TOWN!

BULLSHIT WAGONS!

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb vote for Ranger

I'm sorry Spiffeh, I'm afraid I can't do that.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb vote for Ranger

Cerb vote for Ranger

I'm sorry Spiffeh, I'm afraid I can't do that.

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE FOR WHO YOU'RE LESS SURE OF

FUCKING DO IT CERB

Unfortunately, all you've done is tie yourself with Ranger FS. :-/

[Cerberus v666]

Like, Spiffeh, i don't vote my townreads. The ONLY time I've ever voted a townread was mastin, at literal deadline, like 1 minute before the day would end, solely to avoid a no lynch.

And she flipped town. And she wasn't a strong townread, like Ranger is.

:/

Which doesn't mean i'm right this time, but it DOES show you how unwilling I am to vote for my townreads.

[Cerberus v666]

The voteslave thing I mean

Ranger flipping town is a possibility unfortunately but FS flipping town is a certainty

Why are you suddenly less certain when it appears as though you might actually get to see Rangers flip today? :-/

[Cerberus v666]

If ranger is scum, I'll also sheep spiffeh, because clearly I fucking suck.

pedit: Fuck that, display the true level of certainty you have at all times, don't posture to trick people and THEN try to walk it back at the last second. Either keep the posture up the whole time, until the flip happens, or never posture as such. Becoming uncertain when the wagon you were certain was scum is more likely to be lynched than not is weak evidence of knowledge that the wagon is on town.

[Cerberus v666]

You mean Ranger is your STRONGEST SCUM READ SO STRONG YOU'RE SURE SHE'S GOING TO FLIP AS SCUM, right?

Because that's what you've been saying.

[Cerberus v666]

If ranger is scum, I'll also sheep spiffeh, because clearly I fucking suck.

pedit: Fuck that, display the true level of certainty you have at all times, don't posture to trick people and THEN try to walk it back at the last second. Either keep the posture up the whole time, until the flip happens, or never posture as such. Becoming uncertain when the wagon you were certain was scum is more likely to be lynched than not is weak evidence of knowledge that the wagon is on town.

In all fairness, that posturing has been kind of obvious to me, and is part of the reason I've doubted spiffeh.

If you're too big and too loud for your own confidence to match, why should I be that confident in your read?

I don't mind the posturing, honestly. It's a necessary thing when you have a strong read on someone, but naturally you can't be 100% certain because they didn't scumslip/you don't know the person intimately enough to simply know x is NOT something they would EVER do as town under ANY circumstances. It's the display of uncertainty THE MOMENT the person he's been certain of has more votes than the person he's trying to defend that bugs the hell out of me.

[Cerberus v666]

idk, we've got like 6 people who have checked in in the last hour. that's half of a wagon.

[Cerberus v666]

You mean Ranger is your STRONGEST SCUM READ SO STRONG YOU'RE SURE SHE'S GOING TO FLIP AS SCUM, right?

Because that's what you've been saying.

I think you're nitpicking here. Spiffeh has basically admitted that some level of his confidence has been fabricated in order to get his scumread lynched. That doesn't make spiffeh town, even if the play is questionable. It is NOT the important part here.

If I'm off base here, spiffeh, feel free to correct me.

What is the important part here? And yes, it's a bit nitpicky, but in the unlikely event range flips town AND I die tonight, I'd like to be certain it was noted that spiffeh did some shifty shit at the last second here.

It's the display of uncertainty THE MOMENT the person he's been certain of has more votes than the person he's trying to defend that bugs the hell out of me.

You know there's merit in my position. don't disparage it with your rolling eyes!

pedit: yeah, no I'm not suggesting lynching spiffeh. That's insane.

And, mirhawk, i don't overstate my scumreads. Ever. Because I build up rock solid fucking cases before I decide someone is scum.

We're talking about probabilistic near impossibilities are required for me to be wrong, or incredibly terrible play on the part of claimed PR's/flipped scum.

So yeah. That's a thing you might want to know about me. It's why I'm not a D1 person. Normally I do D1 as pure setup spec theory talk feeling people out pushing them on contradictions in what they've said or pushes they've made, and then get some flips and apply that knowledge using that info. This time I decided to just ignore the bullshit mostly, because I don't like it.

peditx2: not voting ranger guys. There is a .0000001% chance I'll vote her if we're down to 5 minutes in the day phase. There is NO chance I'll vote her before that.

[Cerberus v666]

idk, we've got like 6 people who have checked in in the last hour. that's half of a wagon.

You forgot to subtract the people who actually think Ranger's scum.

Valid point.

I'm caught up. Vig should be on Snarky or tictac tonight.

Why tictac? And why Snarky over dramonic? Both have done fuck all, dram only showed up "coincidentally" when someone actually voted him, so even though he's better than snarky in that he's said/done more, he has that little black mark. And Snarky has just like...what? kept saying FS is scum?

...

[Cerberus v666]

To clarify, I actually did read Tic Tacs ISO, and it's not great, sure, but I don't see why it's terrible.

[Cerberus v666]

Like look at the wagon composition

All of Ranger, tictac, Axel, and TWL are on that wagon

All of these players have been scummy all game/disappeared when things got down to the wire

Snarky too but he's probably town and needs to be replaced and stop joining larges

I cannot fathom how anyone can support an FS lynch with these facts alone

Not to mention how obvtown they are being

I only see tictac and Axel as questionable there. And Axel being questionable comes from like, some shit from right after i replaced in and I don't even remember what it is. And as I said, tictac is like...not great, but not bad.

Because I feel so iffy about Dram due to that game I linked earlier. He's an OK vig shot but I prefer the other two more.
Tictac has been scummy all game and pretty lurky.

please define the scummy all game part. :-/

pedit: mirhawk, I barely ever vote. So yeah. The number of mislynches I've been on is relatively small. Also, there's a difference between a SOLID TOWN READ. and anything less. I'm willing to vote for anything less to ensure a lynch happens. I'm only willing to PUSH WITH ALL MY POWER something with the level of certainty I described in my previous post.

[Cerberus v666]

Pick a fucking side.

They're both town, I wish I had been around more to actually figure that out 4 days ago and work harder to get you lynched. Well, actually, I'm not particularly sure about you(hence the lack of a push), but yeah. Somebody else, other than them. Cause competing town wagons just leads us down a path where we get to mislynch FS tomorrow after Ranger flips town. :-/

podo: .000000000001% chance I'll vote ranger to hammer them at the last minute. So, in order of preference: NL/R/FS

It's not going to come down to me having to make that choice though.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb if there is an opportunity to hammer and you don't take it

And this day ends in a no lynch

Needless to say I will be very upset

Yeah. I doubt it'll come down to that.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb if there is an opportunity to hammer and you don't take it

And this day ends in a no lynch

Needless to say I will be very upset

Yeah. I doubt it'll come down to that.

One more vote for Ranger and it will come to that

So I would say it's very likely

No, it would need to be her sitting at L-1 for 4 hours+, because you already know the only way there is any chance of me voting her is at the last second, if it's literally the choice between NL and Ranger.

[Cerberus v666]

Leaving for pregaming now. I'll be checking in infrequently on phone.

Cerb, don't be useless.

Oh, I won't be, no matter what.

You all do realize there are other people than myself who could easily appear and vote, yes?

[Cerberus v666]

Nope, just saying a no lynch I'd as much their fault as mine, we're one to happen. They know when deadline is. Not checking in for hours and hours before it is a decision as much as not voting for ranger at deadline would be.

[Cerberus v666]

What? I've barely even mentioned that! Usually it happens early in the day too.

And...umm...where's the activity? That's something you should expect from me, if I were trying to replicate anything.

[Cerberus v666]

So like half the playerlist?

The half not currently on Rangers wagon. The half that is certainly FULL of scum who just don't want to bus, even though rangers lynch has been guaranteed since podoboq moved his vote.

[Cerberus v666]

Probably cause no one would kill me.

That's not true. If we assume that snarky was indeed killed by a vig...said vig might have very well shot you instead, if they were one of the people who were suspicious of you.

Cakez, are you positing a seniors/hawk team, or are you just questioning seniors' judgment?

Also, fuck you all, you don't know shit about reading Ranger.

^^

[Cerberus v666]

Why the hell would Seniors choose Mirhawk, a leading wagon yesterday, to vend to?

no one would kill him.

Cerb, only SHITTY players shoot scumreads as vig.

I don't like you shading that way

I'm not sure who you're speaking to there. SirCakez did the shading, if anyone? But it seems the last part of the sentence is directed at me, when I just asked him to clarify his position...

[Cerberus v666]

tictac, are you scum? If you lie all the alcohol in your body is going to expand rapidly and you will likely be seriously injured.

[Cerberus v666]

Damn, he was here 4 hours ago. He's probably sober now.

[Cerberus v666]

Please provide a short dissertation on your theory there.

Her votes have been opportunistic but more importantly she's done a lot of the "lol I'm so bad at this game" and it doesn't sit well with me.

Okay thanks.

Can you please specify your Miller role. I have a result on you which says you're not a miller.

I'm interested in this, and curious why you'd tell her that you have a contradictory result before hearing what her response is.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh man. My first prod ever. Thanks Rob13.

True Ogre + pistachion situation is weird, yes.

Need to compare the pistachion and Ranger wagons, though the pistachion wagon is of less value since it was driven by a claimed investigative result.

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: tic 7 pages in, this might be a hammer idc, tic is scum

Yo pip. Shouldn't you try to get me lynched? It's a golden opportunity. Maybe I'll get out of this state of detachment I'm currently in if you attack me.

2595 is weird. I agree with FS about the whole townreading TO thing, but it's for the quality of his content and the general inquisitive and purposeful nature of his posting, rather than because of the miller/IC thing. Deliberately pointing that out feels suspect though, because it's really not a huge mark against them, but it will get people to townread you when they see you turn down easy town cred.

TO(or anyone else can answer this, actually), I suck, and I have nothing noted for this game. What has been the general thrust and flow of TO's FS read? Was he *actively* scumreading them throughout, or just kinda going with the flow of the general pressure against them?

Sircakez 2350 is disgusting. There was clear work being done by some parties(including myself) to actively argue against a Ranger lynch, and in the position he was on in the wagon, he could have actually done something about it. I mean, I suppose we can make some allowance because of the late wagon etc, but still. I don't like the "oh, woe is me, I wagoned you but didn't argue against it even though I thought you were town deep down inside". (If you did argue against it at length and I don't remember it because I've mainly been skimming this game and nothing has really sunk in and stayed there, please tell me I'm wrong, thanks).

[Cerberus v666]

I did try to do something about it, I made a town case on Ranger <.<
At the end it was Ranger or nolynch and flipping Ranger at least gave us info.

Oh, okay. I guess I'll look for the town case at some point to see how hard you tried. Like I said, I'm not paying as much attention to this game as I like. I'm kinda just...watching the general ebb and flow of things.

It's weird.

[Cerberus v666]

I think cerb's last post was him being scared of my read on him so he is already discrediting it.

YES! That's the spirit pip! You channel all that beeboy slot aggression into tunneling me, and I'll either ignore you or start playing mafia properly!

[Cerberus v666]

Marquis is town btw. Cerb the issue is that I still am about 100 posts fron your entrance

Got it. That is a problem, yes. Someone else needs to obvtown hard while I'm here and actively reading.

And someone needs to ask me questions or something, again, while I'm here and actively reading.

That way I can sheep the person who obvtowns, or, alternatively, get engaged in this again.

[Cerberus v666]

Beeboy should have been obvtown

Is this like, a reverse Amished? The play of your predecessor was so good that we're all fools for not seeing that he wasn't town?

IMO, Beeboys pushes were crap, piled on crap. Not least because I tended to disagree with most of his expressed reads.

After you catch up, I'd love to see you comment on what aspects of the cases he made were good.

[Cerberus v666]

Hey pistachi0n, you're better than obvtown. Whose scum and why?

[Cerberus v666]

We have two days
Someone (Ranger I think?) brought up a tictac wagon earlier. I'd do that.

Actually
VOTE: tictac
Still think Mirhawk is scum but I want to try this. I have been voteparked too long, that part of the case on me is true.

I tried to flashwagon Tictac wtf. It fell apart though.
Also Fruit Vendor is a terrible scum claim unless scum is actually Fruit Vendor.

No, that is false, your

strong

pushing on tictac didn't start until today.

[Cerberus v666]

? How do you misunderstand the sequence there? You said you tried to flashwagon tictac, she says you didn't strongly push for tictac, you quote those very very weak moves towards a tictac wagon, and I just reiterated that she specifically said STRONG pushing.

[Cerberus v666]

Umm. Pistachions assertion is that you didn't actually try to get anyone else lynched. That is, you did not make a good faith, sincere attempt at it. You claim that you did try to get tictac lynched, and present those quotes as evidence of that. I assert that there is no way you can consider those two posts a "strong push".

[Cerberus v666]

The question is whether or not your contribution to it was strong. NOT whether or not the wagon picked up any steam.

[Cerberus v666]

When you make a suggestion like that and the wagon starts, quickly, to gain momentum, but you do nothing to further that momentum, it certainly appears as though you were attempting to distance yourself from the other push, without actually having any intention of following through on the alternative you presented.

It speaks more to the games general suspicion of tictac that votes went their way, than to any sort of influence you exerted.

Why are you arguin so much that you tried to get tictac wagoned, when it's clear that you really didn't try?

[Cerberus v666]

First of all many apologies to everyone.
But it turns out the fever i've been experienced is caused by me getting hit by Chikungunya virus again, just like last year, and from memory that last one had a duration of a month, i know it's also possible for it to go away in a few weeks but it's been noted to last multiple months as well, and as a result i can't promise when i'll be able to come back and i can't focus on mafia related stuff with this going on, so i think the fairest course of action is for me to replace out and come back to play mafia games once im fully recovered.

@Mod: Taking the above in mind please replace me out

Feel better Sakura.

[Cerberus v666]

Mirhawk, podo and I were saying the exact same thing, I simply made further assumptions about possible explanations for thr situation, beyond the base conclusion podo and I arrived at.

Anyways. Hey dram. Why does plot, a good player, doing newbscum things, make them likely to be scum? That doesn't actually make sense.

[Cerberus v666]

Gah, stop making me post. I got places to be.

You and podo did not have the same case.

Your case relied on me knowing Ami's claim was false from the start. Which was impossible unless I was scum with Ami (which you weren't saying).

Podo's case was that I knew they were both town and was trying to get towncred (or something like that). I'd have to go back and look for the exact reason for podo's case, but it was definitely different.

You're messing up the logic.

The issue we both had was with your knowledge that the claim was false. That knowledge, logically, in both our cases, came from you being scum. As scum, you would know that Ami was town, and could logically deduct that it was unlikely there were two millers, therefore you knew the claim was false.

That is identical in both our posts. You simply misunderstood my original post, and missed how I never said you knew that from firsthand knowledge, but instead said it was simply a reasonable conclusion for scum to draw.

I, too, would need to go back and reread them to remember what the exact differences were from that point forward, but I definitely remember being extremely irritated when you accepted podoboq's reasons as perfectly fine, when they were in fact identical to mine at their root.

That's something very irritating to me in general.

Anyways. Go off and do your things. You misrepresenting/misunderstanding what I said has been handled for now.

[Cerberus v666]

everyone needs to adopt my playstyle: You get all your thoughts out in a few sentences instead of making huge walls of text that take 20 minutes to read and write.

My huge walls are pretty stream of consciousness, they just sorta flow out and cover whatever is on my mind at the time, which isn't much now.

So, based on the top wagons right now, I would prefer SirCakez>Skybird>TPP. I don't see TPP as scum at all, Skybird is, well. Meh. I guess they're actually tied with Cakez, in that I've seen things from Cakez that have aroused my suspicions, but also some good things, and Skybird is just generally meh.

Hmm. I'll have you all know, I'm kinda inclined to sheep Rangers reads except where they were totally wrong(as in, on FS, imo), and all the people you guys want to lynch are like, no worse than null to me, and like all town and shit to her.

I kinda wanna lynch Axel.

Itlepip, I wanna lynch Mirhawk too, more than anyone else, I think? But like, I'm just not here enough to push it or to be sure I'm right. Tell me why Mirhawk is scum, indepedent of that.

-Cerb

[Cerberus v666]

@Cerb the jist of it is that his later day pushes by deadline doesn't feel like town especially given that he just abandons his Dav push. His early day is all just 'dav is scum dav is scum dav is scum' he votes pistach, and then goes back to dav after the whole Amiham slip thing. Then deadline hits and in short succession he calls ranger, Cakez, Skybird, all scum based on which one is the most popular at the time and never even mentions Dav again in any sort of negative light for the rest of the game. I don't understand why a town player would ever think that he has a clear caught scum, and then give it up not only due to deadline panic, but then the next day he completely forgets that this player was ever considered scummy by him. It is something I have done as scum by accident, but I can't ever imagine as town just giving up on a scum push that I was death tunneling because meh. Like he never actually says that Cakez is worse than dav or anything like that, he just seems to forget that Dav is even in the game after his last case against him.

Full disclosure I was hoping for worse answer from him regarding dav but the answers he gave don't invalidate my case at all imo. Its a bit complicated and I'm on a phone so the full thing will appear later tonight.

Holy shit. That makes perfect sense. Are you voting him yet? Cause I am now.

VOTE: Mirhawk

[Cerberus v666]

That's cuz you're kinda scummy cakez. Pip isn't. :p

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah. You explained what scum motivation there would be for his behavior, why I explained why his knowledge of their claim being fake made sense if he were scum. I started earlier in the logical path, and you ended at a later point, basically. The most important part of the whole thing was the same for both of us.

It's not a very significant thing to still be talking about thiugh, and I don't see how Mirhawk could seriously be trying to use the fact that Cakez didn't elaborate more on something that, from the looks of it, only Mirhawk failed to understand, against cakez.

[Cerberus v666]

Cool. What are your thoughts on what itlepip just said?

[Cerberus v666]

if anyone has anything other than "he forgot to push his scum read" i'd love to hear it

I'll have to check back though, I thi she recently did the not claiming today as scum.

I think I did, too.

I can't remember which game (which is odd, I only have 8, you'd think I would but I don't), but I think I did. Maybe Machina?

Final thing before I go: {Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666, The Pied Piper, Sakura Hana}
{Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq}
{Spiffeh, davesaz}
{The Wrong Lynch}
{dramonic, SnarkySnowman}
{Axelrod, True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors,

Mirhawk

}

The changes here are Pied Piper and Sakura Hana going to untouchable town, me feeling better about The Wrong Lynch (no specific reason why, just a general thing), and davesaz getting knocked down a tier. This is mainly because I feel like he should know I'm town this game. He's seen me as scum

twice

. He's also seen me as town many times. He should be aware this is not like the scum games, yet he is pushing me anyway and in spite of me answering his call, his vote remains, unchanged, with no additional reason and no additional response, similar to Spiffeh in that regard.

Vote Count #1.27 (FINAL):

Ranger:

davesaz, Amihan,

Mirhawk

, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Friendless Seniors:

Skybird, Ranger, tictac, Axelrod, The Pied Piper, pistachi0n (6)

SirCakez:

Tammy, True Ogre (2)

Mirhawk:

Cerberus v666 (1)

Axelrod:

dramonic (1)

Not Voting:

None.

With 21 players alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2016-04-06 21:00:00)

Ranger,

J. M. Barrie (Vanilla Townie])

from

Finding Neverland

, was lynched Day 1.

Night 1 has begun. Please submit all night actions within (expired on 2016-04-08 20:00:00).

[/align]

Rangers pretty good at catching scum. Ranger is now known to be town. That's sufficient cause for me...plus there's the whole fake claim thing. And what Itlepip just said.

I find it rather offputting, however, for someone who has expressed a distinct desire to avoid reading the game to come in and demand a stronger case on someone.

Why do you think he's town dwlee? Or rather, what is lacking in itlepips logic and reasoning? I understand that you're a terrible player who does inconsistent things, based on what you just said you do(that is, forgetting about your scum reads etc.), but are you trying to say that it ISN'T scummy for someone to do that? Is it perfectly acceptable, nay, even town, of someone to be inconsistent and opportunistic, in your opinion? If what he did isn't scummy, what has been done that you've witnessed and read so far in this game, which you would view as scummy?

[Cerberus v666]

someone being town doesn't make them right ffs

Agreed. But someone being town and having a read that matches my own while someone else brings up examples of scummy behavior that are EXACTLY the sort of inconsistency in narrative and play that I use to catch scum makes me give their read a lot more weight.

Plus, I'm kinda disengaged from the game, and until that changes I'm totally okay sheeping conftown reads.

Pedit: Rob13, is that VC correct?

[Cerberus v666]

I guess me saying I forget stuff is just gonna be met with responses of "well you're a bad player, dwlee" lmao

Forgetting stuff like people you scum read and completely ignoring them in the future? Yeah. I will call you a bad player for that.

Don't worry though, I'm generally very good at retaining information about the game, assuming I read it properly the first time, so I have unrealistic expectations.

You didn't address the tail end of my post. Are those behaviors by Mirhawk, which you said you don't remember (which is weird, because it happened before you replaced in, and I was under the impression that you didn't want to read the game, so I'm a bit confused about how you could possibly hope to recall something you may have never read), town? Are they scummy? If they're town/not scummy, what has been done in this game as far as you've seen, which is scummy? I'm trying to establish a baseline here, because I've never played with you and you just made an excuse for something which I view as undoubtedly scummy, leading me to suspect that we have very different views on what is/isn't acceptable behavior from a town slot.

[Cerberus v666]

Dwlee: you're saying you missed the post by itlepip at the top of the last page, where we had our discussion ? That's the post outlining the suspect behaviors by Mirhawk. How did you miss that? It was there every time you entered the thread to respond to me...

[Cerberus v666]

And pushing, in turn, seemingly indiscriminately, every single person who looked even slightly viable as a lynch.

And please stop reducing it to "forgetting his read". Let him answer for himself. You don't know if that's what happened. You're making a silly assumption which you have no reason to make, when he can come and tell us himself.

[Cerberus v666]

I mean, he does seem to have very good recall about all the events of this game. Why would he forget his Dave read, when he remembers everything else?

[Cerberus v666]

..naw man. This is EXACTLY the sort of shit I push people on. I don't understand why both of you, now, are insistent that forgetting about his scumread on Dave is what happened here. Let Mirhawk tell us himself. I also find it highly unlikely that you can tell me that you sincerely believe that completely dropping your top scum read for absolutely no reason is COMPLETELY NAI.

Anyways, the rest of this game though, yeah, totally not my normal town me. Sorry. Not giving it my all, so you get half-assed Cerb. My case isn't "Ranger thought it." It's, I find these points to be scummy and inconsistent for these reasons, which have been previously covered by myself and others. In addition, Ranger thought it was scum.

Dwlee: Naw, I just believe those things done by Mirhawk were acummy. I can absolutely see where they may have been done by town, but I believe it's significantly more likely to have been done by scum.

Also, FS, how am I taking advantage or dwlee? I'm mocking him at most. I dislike people who come into a game and don't want to actually catch up and know what's going on, and then have the audacity to demand more from someone else, when they can't even be bothered to know what's going on themselves.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, I really wish someone who I wasn't already townreading had been the one to point out that my play isn't up to par for me. Minimal value gained. I guess cakez said it too, but like, his only completed game with me I was scum, and uncharacteristically inactive, so he isn't quite as versed in what normal me is.

Pedit: dude. Not on TPP. First, I'm biased, literally half the reason I joined this game is cause plot wowed the fuck out of me in my first game on site, back when they were like, completely new, and I really wanted to play another game with them, so I can't objectively evaluate since I want them to stick around longer. And second...cause it's a fucking pain. That iso man. I haven't been isoing anyone yet this game and there is NO chance I'm starting with them.

I've already expressed my limited thoughts on them somewhere. I see nothing scummy about them at all. Every fucking thing they say is on point. They're both extremely good players though, so that's all NAI. I see people calling them scummy but only giving out these handwavey reasons why they're scummy. The scummiest thing they've done is keep trying to engage with me, and I keep not responding, and they don't ratchet up the pressure. That is either them being scum just looking busy ( cause plot was the person whoever first said the phrase "Effort is not indicative of alignment" had in mind), or I'm sincerely not a priority for sorting. Considering my low impact this game, I could buy that argument too.

So like, yeah. By play, it's like 90%+ town from my perspective. And I actually DO read their walls.

[Cerberus v666]

Sigh. They're gonna win this game aren't they

I wish chamber was in this game

Naw man, don't worry, I'll kick into high gear soon and catch them all unawares!

I mean, I already know like 4 people are definitely town, so that's a step in the right direction.

[Cerberus v666]

The skybird one I just don't think outweighs the view posts where I got a gut towny vibe from him. Like I feel that half the player base has been coasting which is 100% of the case on skybird. Town skybird isn't a super town machine.

TPP is just burden of proficiency which given that we haven't seen any flips yet is a crock of BS. The case against them is just that they are good players and since the game isn't just magically over yet we lynch them because that makes so much sense.

I don't think you are town here so i'm not too keen on keeping up this conversation unless someone towny joins so I can yell at them to vote mir.

FS is town. Go iso me+them, starting from VC 1.25 or so I think. The back and forth between us, their reactions, it's purely town. Try to find scum motivation in the way they handled that.

[Cerberus v666]

TPP: they're reducing the Mirhawk push to him forgetting things. That's unrelated to you.

And yeah, I umm, was closer to normal when I first replaced in, posting at my standard intensity, then I dialed it back when other games happened and haven't pushed this to the top of the queue at any point so far.

I'm also quite interested in how a wagon on me would progress. Give it time, someone will try.

[Cerberus v666]

Mirhawk is in the "I would not try to derail their wagon if they were being lynched¹" section of my readslist, and I think Nacho thought some of their posts seemed town a while back. I need to make coffee and breakfast and then I'll look through your Mirhawk case in more detail.

pedit @Cerb:

I understood 3268 to be a response to 3265, but it's possible I misunderstood:

Who am I pushing for forgetting something?

Skybird.

I had thought this was your only ongoing game that you're alive in but I remember now that you're in another two. I feel you; I'm alive in two as well and it seems my limit is closer to one.


[1] I think I will keep this naming scheme in the future, too. I have thought up all sorts of clever names for tiers, some of which don't even have people in them.

Hmm. Yeah, point taken. I'm. Little confused there then. Both before and after that there was a lot of conversation about pushing Mirhawk based on some inconsistency in his pushes, as outlined by itlepip in 3250 I believe, so I thought you had put some pressure on Mirhawk at some point and that's what FS was referring to. I don't know anything about the Skybird thing. I guess I might as well reiterate what everyone else is saying: Skybird is Skybird, the behaviors you dislike from her haven't been indicative of her scum play in my limited experience with her, but she certainly is scummy and I wouldn't object to her lynch, except for the fact that I'm more suspicious of Mirhawk.

One game is my effective max, unless I get a nice flow of when day/night cycles happen so I can alternate focusing. :/

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: The Pied Piper
Lots of information, especially about previous games. Don't see an application of all that content to this game. Don't see penetrating analysis of events that might be expected.

This is a terrible vote. As itlepip said, burden of proficiency. Your problem with the slot is that they haven't provided "penetrating analysis". Seriously?

[Cerberus v666]

VOTE: The Pied Piper
Lots of information, especially about previous games. Don't see an application of all that content to this game. Don't see penetrating analysis of events that might be expected.

This is a terrible vote. As itlepip said, burden of proficiency. Your problem with the slot is that they haven't provided "penetrating analysis". Seriously?

Proficiency doesn't factor. The ratio of useless info is the key part.

Disagree. All their posts contain substance. They might ALSO contains things which you don't find substantive, but that doesn't mean they don't have more game relevant content than everyone else, other than True Ogre.

TPP: I don't quite understand your last post. Who is vulnerable/not vulnerable, and what are their likelihood of being town/not town?

[Cerberus v666]

There's a nonzero chance that I'll be stuborn about Mirhawk again, and refuse to vote elsewhere unless absolutely necessary.

[Cerberus v666]

And yet I am mysteriously townreading them anyways. Well sorta. Like I said, I'm townreading Beeboy here, not pip.

If I sound testy it's because I am testy.

I feel like pip's doing some super lazy scumhunting and isn't even bothering to check any of his facts on the things he's saying.

I also feel like he's only pushing it so aggressively because he dropped the only other scumreads he has already.

Podoboq double checked what pip had said. Do you think he also didn't bother to actually check into things? I'll freely admit that I never double checked the details, because I did remember your davesaz read abruptly disappearing never reappearing.

Also, fyi, the whole fake claim thing from D1? The other party who you agreed with, rather than taking issue with? Yeah, he agreed that the most important parts of our posts were fundamentally the same. So, perhaps one or both of us communicated poorly, though it seems only you find that to be the case, but the only alternative is that you misunderstood me.

It's not important anymore though, you're right. So meh.

[Cerberus v666]

Hi pistachion. How do you feel about mirhawk? Is he right about pip/podo/myself not properly evaluating his play?

[Cerberus v666]

Mirhawk is commonly mislynched?

Are you? Because it's basically you or him he's talking about.

[Cerberus v666]

getting lynched as scum isn't a mislynch. Anyways. FS, who else is scum? TPP, maybe Marquis, amd who else?

[Cerberus v666]

FS, that's 440 posts ago. 16 pages, 14% of the game, and that has done nothing to change any of those reads?

Your unstoppable scumread on TPP for bad reasons is equally frustrating. Cool. We don't agree there. Ditto with the townread on Mirhawk. What's your point?

[Cerberus v666]

FS, that's 440 posts ago. 16 pages, 14% of the game, and that has done nothing to change any of those reads?

Your unstoppable scumread on TPP for bad reasons is equally frustrating. Cool. We don't agree there. Ditto with the townread on Mirhawk. What's your point?

my point is I've read the game and I don't think you have

I have.

..naw man. This is EXACTLY the sort of shit I push people on. I don't understand why both of you, now, are insistent that forgetting about his scumread on Dave is what happened here. Let Mirhawk tell us himself. I also find it highly unlikely that you can tell me that you sincerely believe that completely dropping your top scum read for absolutely no reason is COMPLETELY NAI.

Anyways, the rest of this game though, yeah, totally not my normal town me. Sorry.

Not giving it my all, so you get half-assed Cerb.

My case isn't "Ranger thought it." It's, I find these points to be scummy and inconsistent for these reasons, which have been previously covered by myself and others. In addition, Ranger thought it was scum.

Dwlee: Naw, I just believe those things done by Mirhawk were acummy. I can absolutely see where they may have been done by town, but I believe it's significantly more likely to have been done by scum.

Also, FS, how am I taking advantage or dwlee? I'm mocking him at most. I dislike people who come into a game and don't want to actually catch up and know what's going on, and then have the audacity to demand more from someone else, when they can't even be bothered to know what's going on themselves.

I just haven't read as carefully as I normally would, nor have I reread or ISOed anyone.

[Cerberus v666]

also happens to skybird ffs

Agreed. Not a valid argument for preferring skybird over cakez. (Or Mirhawk!!!)

[Cerberus v666]

SO VOTE TPP CERB

only one with an actual case besides "u playbad"

You remember Ranger right? Where everyone waa sure they were scum, and I refused because I don't vote my town reads? Yeah. Same situation here. I'll be extremely surprised and duly impressed if they flip scum.

[Cerberus v666]

Fire Emblem was like the largest Day 1 in MS history and had some pretty awesome mechanics with children/players *entering* the game.
Have fun with that

I QUESTION THIS STATEMENT

What's to question?

Largest days in a Large Game
# Game Day Posts Notes
1 Fire Emblem: Awakening Mafia. Day 1 4198

I thought it was fun

Pretty sure it was the largest game for a bit too.

WERE YOU IN IT? O.O

Saga Frontier Mafia, which ended a couple months ago, is now the largest Day 1 in terms of post count. Didn't quite beat Smite for largest game though.

Dram might be questioning the awesomeness of the games mechanics though? Dunno. Anyways.

Sure TO, it's passive. Have I claimed to be anything other than that in this game? You guys aren't lynching my scumreads, and want to kill my town reads, so yes, I'm not going to actively assist in either of those objectives.

Skybird: kingmaker? Also, flavor claim please, I apologize if you did it earlier and I missed it.

[Cerberus v666]

I refused to vote TPP, mirhawk. Not skybird. And trust me, I'm more aware of what optimal town play is, with regards to mechanics and such, than you're likely to believe, given your lack of experience of with me.

In any case, I withhold my vote period. I could go drag up the VCs from the lynch vc in all of my games on site if you'd like, and show you that exactly how infrequently I'm actually on a wagon. Anyways, my point is compromise is a thing which is necessary, but, quite simply, it's incredibly rare for a game to need ME to compromise in order to ensure a lynch occurs.

This game isn't any different than the others.

To answer your other question: the only people whose flips I'm particularly interested in seeing are yourself, axel, and cakez. And axel I have absolutely no good reason to scum read. I just know his posts haven't sat well with me, but gut feelings aren't something I work off of, so, he's not very important. Skybird I wouldn't object to, and the same with mala/dramonic, but in those cses it's because of the lack of things to work with coming from the slots.

Pedit: davesaz, it's unproveable. And there's basically no chance of it actually being in the game, making it a safe fake claim. I agree that if true, it's pretty obvtown, but it's not something we can verify, and using her claim as a defense is terrible as a result.

With that said, we can always lynch mirhawk.

[Cerberus v666]

Survivalist is NAI, Skybird, unless the person you're pushing as an alternative is someone who you had previously considered town.

[Cerberus v666]

@Rob, can you confirm that I am a 1-shot kingmaker and that I targeted Tammy last night?

I'm not sure if he can, but it's worth a try.

.....why would he be able to confirm that? That is an insane thing to ask Skybird.

[Cerberus v666]

Skybird isn't new.

[Cerberus v666]

I think the onus is on you, TPP, to show why lolhammering is superior to giving intent? Given that the accepted behavior is giving intent.

Do you feel that it's a contrived adherence to the expected norms on his part, given that the *intent* of giving intent is generally to get reads and a claim from people, so we may reconsider, but we've already heard that information from her slot?

[Cerberus v666]

So you're saying Dwlee should have just lolhammered right there?

You seem to disagree. Why?

I don't think ita superior.

That seems to indicate that you believe otherwise? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. If so, please elaborate.

[Cerberus v666]

I thought that it was strange that Dwlee would be so willing to hammer the wagon that I was on as easily as it was, and I still don't understand why he claimed intent. If I was in his position, I would claim intent so that some other people could pop up and react so that's obviously not what's going on here.

Declaring intent and then hammering after such a short window removes any thought that he was doing so for actual town reasons. :-/

[Cerberus v666]

I've been told that once I declare intent I should hammer shortly after. In one game I waited like an hour and people got salty at me.
You can be bussing, though, tpp. You're still scum, but after that pedit so is skybird.

Ah. I don't usually do intent, because, well, i don't hammer or vote much. I think the only time I ever hammered someone was on a literal deadline lynch with a few minutes until deadline. If I DID give intent though, I would give a very exact time, longer than an hour, for when i was going to hammer. So people had time to respond and say stuff. ^^ Meh. Now the waiting.

[Cerberus v666]

So am I dead now?

Technically, not until the flip happens are you dead. But that should have been a hammer, yes.

[Cerberus v666]

FS is a crap vig target
Vig should be on tictac/

mirhawk

/mala

[Cerberus v666]

Or we can just stop talking about vig targets and let them do their thing?<3

This is fundamentally the same as everyone sharing their top scum reads. What's wrong with that?

[Cerberus v666]

Or we can just stop talking about vig targets and let them do their thing?<3

"Hey town, quit communicating with eachother."

"Damnit, why isn't the mod here yet, it's so unfair that a hammer happened and they still get to talk and we can't talk yet!"



I don't actually have cause to think she's scum, but, ya know, that is the impression it gives.

[Cerberus v666]

Or we can just stop talking about vig targets and let them do their thing?<3

"Hey town, quit communicating with eachother."

"Damnit, why isn't the mod here yet, it's so unfair that a hammer happened and they still get to talk and we can't talk yet!"

I don't actually have cause to think she's scum,

but, ya know, that is the impression it gives.

If I wanted to stay out of 'twilight' I could have just not posted after I got home from class. Just saying, but gl oh that stupid accusation cerb

I just thought it would be an entertaining thing to say. You should read the entirety of my posts. When I say I don't have cause to believe someone is scum, it means I don't. When I say something gives a certain impression, it means it does. Just because something gives a certain impression, doesn't mean that said impression actually changes the fact that I don't have cause to read them one way or another.

I don't think I said you wanted to stay out of twilight, actually? Looking at that again, I'm not really sure what your point was. At first I thought you thougth I was scum, but umm, it seems more like you misinterpreted what I said?

[Cerberus v666]

Or we can just stop talking about vig targets and let them do their thing?<3

"Hey town, quit communicating with eachother."

"Damnit, why isn't the mod here yet, it's so unfair that a hammer happened and they still get to talk and we can't talk yet!"

I don't actually have cause to think she's scum,

but, ya know, that is the impression it gives.

If I wanted to stay out of 'twilight' I could have just not posted after I got home from class. Just saying, but gl oh that stupid accusation cerb

I just thought it would be an entertaining thing to say. You should read the entirety of my posts. When I say I don't have cause to believe someone is scum, it means I don't. When I say something gives a certain impression, it means it does. Just because something gives a certain impression, doesn't mean that said impression actually changes the fact that I don't have cause to read them one way or another.

I don't think I said you wanted to stay out of twilight, actually? Looking at that again, I'm not really sure what your point was. At first I thought

you thought I thought you were scum

, but umm, it seems more like you misinterpreted what I said?

[Cerberus v666]

(btw, you all realize this interaction FS is having with me is SUPER FUCKING TOWN RIGHT? I'm not being sarcastic. I don't know why scum him would do this, because there's literally no chance of a wagon being shifted over to me, of all people, at this stage in the day)

Ranger is town because ranger is town. I could look through her iso and tell you why, but it's fundamentally the fact that her flow and reasoning feels like it comes from a town place, as it were. Which is the sort of mystical bullshit I HATE myself, but considering I haven't bothered doing ANY isoing at all, it's really the best I can do.

pedit: My point is you were trying to say I'm acting like scum, when you don't know how I would act as scum, hiplop. that's all. If you DID know how I acted as scum, I would have instead said "yes, but I'm super self aware of my meta(which btw, this game is playing to my limited scum meta to a T, because just like that game, I have other things going on that are kidna making this take a back seat), and were i actually scum i would be playing to my actual town meta. Which is all fluffy and super easy to do as scum, ESPECIALLY D1. ^^)

The bolded is still true, FS is still town, analyze the skybird wagon with that knowledge Mirhawk.

[Cerberus v666]

Cerb, what interaction are you talking about?

The sequence of posts up to 2092. Basically FS like...trying really hard to make me seem like I'm scum. Just...iso him+me, and check out the posts right around there. It's hard to express/recapture the exact meaning I had with that original post. He was pushing me, and it just didn't make any sense at all for him to do that as scum. We were like 12 hours out from deadline or something, and the lynch was clearly going to be either Ranger or FS, and he's coming at me furiously, which just didn't do ANYTHING good for a scum him, imo.

pedit: Nice Marquis. Why couldn't you check me!

Please confirm the way your results are. Are they innocent/guilty? Town/not town? Mafia/not mafia? The exact nature of your clears is really important, since certain sorts of clears might still be 3p, and others might not be.

[Cerberus v666]

Ok so no, this seniors wagon is trash.

Tictac called marquis scum for their.skybird push, let's lynch them tyvm

Agreed. Not the composition, but the fact that it even exists.

[Cerberus v666]

I appreciate cerbs townread on me, but he seems to townread everyone?

Don't like his slot at ALL.

That's untrue. I want mirhawk dead. I'm okay with an axel lynch. Other than that I've only commented on my townreads. Because people keep trying to lynch them.

[Cerberus v666]

how tf do you townread tictac

it makes no sense.

null, maybe. But like...townread?

Axel would be OK with me, I guess? also holy hell beetlejuice

I never townread tictac. I assume you're referring to something else?

And...I'm still probably the most active person here, even if I'm not spamming and posting as much as normal. I refresh my ego compulsively and read everything new whenever the name of the last poster changes.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

What would I be lying about, though, if you're a flavor cop?

I was wondering if you were a flavor cop because my flavor is Roxie Hart from Chicago who did in fact kill people, your claim is a little less believable hearing you had no result.

Umm. It seems clear that he assumed you were an ascetic of some sort. Very strange for an ascetic to fake claim miller though. The conclusion he drew doesn't really fit with the information? Can you explain your thought process, True Ogre, in a way that makes more sense to me at least?

[Cerberus v666]

I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

What would I be lying about, though, if you're a flavor cop?

I was wondering if you were a flavor cop because my flavor is Roxie Hart from Chicago who did in fact kill people, your claim is a little less believable hearing you had no result.

My cop wouldn't give me your role name, just the musical you're in.

Ultimately I decided on you in an attempt to use the role to clear (or damn) you because you'd refused to claim flavour and you were unconfirmable by normal means. I had a few other ideas (ie Tammy, TWL, Piper) but decided this wasn't a role that was going to be used like a normal investigative. Had I gotten a result on you I would have crumbed it but not said anything. However given there was no result and there were two kills I thought that maybe you were an SK with a 1-shot ninja (thinking about that later I'm not sure if that actually works against a role cop) or that scum had some kind of protective effect. I just thought it really, really unlikely that I'd be roleblocked or jailkept given I hadn't crumbed anything and hadn't been playing like a PR.

Umm. It seems clear that he assumed you were an ascetic of some sort. Very strange for an ascetic to fake claim miller though. The conclusion he drew doesn't really fit with the information? Can you explain your thought process, True Ogre, in a way that makes more sense to me at least?

Not in a way that's going to wrap it up in a nice neat package for you, Cerb.

Because of experiential differences? Because it was a nonstandard line of thought? Something else?

Why not check me? I actually claimed to have such a mechanical connection with my flavor, such that I am quite certain another slot in this game, with related flavor to myself, is town.

Why wouldn't you check me, discover that flavor, and then start searching for the connection?

[Cerberus v666]

I feel like Seniors vs TPP is TvT actually.
I still want to murder Mirhawk btw.

QFT.

[Cerberus v666]

Because of experiential differences? Because it was a nonstandard line of thought? Something else?

Either this is rhetorical or I don't understand what you're saying.

Why not check me? I actually claimed to have such a mechanical connection with my flavor, such that I am quite certain another slot in this game, with related flavor to myself, is town.

Why wouldn't you check me, discover that flavor, and then start searching for the connection?

After thinking about it for a bit I wasn't interested in anyone who'd referred to their flavour - they obviously were going to have to out it consistently later. Whereas a Miller claim is a big ole "not worth investigating me guise, I'm just gonna return a guilty".

As far as you specifically, I knew

someone

had said that their flavour related to their role earlier, but I actually thought it was Mirhawk until just now. You hadn't made much of an impact, had just been stubborn about not voting on wagons and I had a slight townlean on you which I was happy to see evolve. (As in, I didn't think of you at all when I decided to submit my cop.)

I thiink if you're not seeing me as town by now, there's not much I'm going to be able to do to sway you.

Oh, I'm quite certain you're town. I'm just trying to understand your thought process. The part you thought was rhetorical...isn't. You said you couldn't explain things in a fashion that would end up in a nice neat little package for me. I was asking if the reason why you couldn't do that was because the root of the differences in your thought process had to do with experiences unique to yourself or playstyle choices and considerations which are uncommon, thus making it unlikely that whatever explanation you could offer would be one that would be easily accepted by myself.

3847: I don't quite understand what you mean. I'm quoting a post which references three slots, which was said by a fourth. The confidence in whose push is hard to ignore? TPP's push against Seniors, which is one that has convinced you to vote Seniors? Is that what you meant?

If so...the degree of confidence they have is meaningless, because the suggestion is that both slots are town. That means both slots are indeed confident in and legitimately believe the accuracy of their reads.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, I'm quite certain you're town. I'm just trying to understand your thought process.

Not that it actually happens like this post-game, but isn't this something that's more suited to... postgame then?
It seems a bit indulgent to me to be asking random questions about my thought processes unless you're thinking I might be scum. Your approach was sceptical, so I responded in kind.

3847: I don't quite understand what you mean. I'm quoting a post which references three slots, which was said by a fourth. The confidence in whose push is hard to ignore? TPP's push against Seniors, which is one that has convinced you to vote Seniors? Is that what you meant?

Yep, I'm backing Piper as town and I don't think they'd push this hard unless they were confident in the read. Therefore when Cakez and you both decided to write it off as TvT, I gave my opinion.

If so...the degree of confidence they have is meaningless, because the suggestion is that both slots are town. That means both slots are indeed confident in and legitimately believe the accuracy of their reads.

Either could be right, both could be wrong, both could be scum. Those are the exact options.
If you think this is town tunnelling on each other then why are you worried about me taking a side?
Do you think you're going to talk me down from a Seniors vote if Seniors themselves can't?

And why exactly aren't you pushing your own scumreads

or even voting

?
Wanna chit-chat with me instead?

I mean I can do so but I'd rather be talking about potential scumteams with Skybird if you have any input on that. And the thing is that Piper's already done just that and I don't know why you're so eager to write it off as TvT.

I could be wrong. If any uncertainty develops in my position regarding you at a later date, I'd rather have a stronger, rather than a weaker, understanding of how you approach things. Plus I'll probably forget about this by then.

I find it doubtful that on this occasion I'll be more likely to talk you down than seniors,but normally I'd say yes to this question. If this is town tunneling one another, it means today, like every other day, is going to be all about the FS slot. We've generated a ridiculous amount of noise about them, which makes it especially difficult to figure out other slots (without seeing their flip), while simultaneously making it effortless for those who want to coast to simply do so.

And, I tried to get Mirhawk lynched. Nobody wants to do it, ar least not enough to not go back to these bad wagons on town and someone who isn't even playing. Also...I generally don't vote. I had my vote on Mirhawk when itlepip was there too, and had what I viewed as good arguments for considering Mirhawk scum, but there clearly isn't enough support, therefore there is no reason to actually bother voting.

Sircakez: Do you feel the person making this cop clear crumb is scum now? Are you just reading too much into the certainty of their position that tictac is town?

Pedit: what would have been optimal would have been NOT mentioning a cop crumb as part of the reason why he unvoted tictac, unless he was CERTAIN he was mistaken about it being a crumb (which is the point of my questions directed at sircakez ). However, since this crumb WAS mentioned, for the simple fact that it relates to a read on a specific slot, it should be relatively easy for scum to identify it themselves, meaning not doing so mostly just makes more work for the town.

[Cerberus v666]

/me waves

HI FLUBBERNUGGET!

[Cerberus v666]

Hi guys. Lucky you, this game just got moved to the top of my priority list!!

So, what's going on?

[Cerberus v666]

Hi guys. Lucky you, this game just got moved to the top of my priority list!!

So, what's going on?

vote pied piper and i will love you

Unfortunately they're still town.

[Cerberus v666]

The only people who have done that have been TPP and TO. TO already claimed to be a flavor cop who received no results the first two nights. TPP has hinted at knowledge of MORE than 2 other slots roles. That means any information beyond two slots (most likely ) came from a crumb they picked up/an asumption they're making based on prior experiences.

That means that information is not necessarily useful in solving the game, because it could be wrong. There is little reason for them to share that information, unless they have cause to believe they will be lynched today, OR shot tonight.

[Cerberus v666]

Crumbed shooting snarky is a really bad reason to think cakez is the vig, since several people kept saying he should be vigged........unless there was something he said that was a more obvious crumb, I guess. Feels like a weird conclusion to arrive at with that evidence.

Also kinda ridiculous to expose your hood. For...no benefit? Oh, and another slots BP, also exposed.

...

I don't understand the info dump.

[Cerberus v666]

Huh. So I just got done reading the last 10 pages (I've been like, randomly reading shit from this game since that point, but never went back to the start), and I dislike Dwlee's slot now. That is, I think it's scum. So that's something.

I'd also like to remind you all that this is now the

third

day we've spent discussing FS and TPP to the exclusion of all other slots.

So, eh, FS and TPP are pushing one another. Who are the other driving forces behind this discussion, as far as those who have a better feel for the games pulse can tell?

Mala: I never pushed TPP to claim stuff. I didn't want them to.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, yeah, clubbers does need to out his result now that he's been revealed. Mmm. Maybe? Doubtful he has actual useful information at this point, and outing his result simply clarifies what sort of investigative he is.

Also, I really should have been paying attention, you've all been going in these insane circles for days.

[Cerberus v666]

I thought they were competent enough players to not blindly dumb information because

Dwlee of all people was calling them scum

=_=
Is this even mafia or is it "let's discredit the 14 year old"?

I don't think it has anything to do with age(or rather, it shouldn't...I didn't know your age until the last few pages), but more to do with the fact that your style is one that does little to persuade people to follow you, and you lack the history on site for people to sheep you simply because they have faith in you.

*shrug*

That's just how I see it at least. I didn't see any reason why your posts should be considered much in the way of pressure on TPP...part of why I don't understand the decision to claim.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah. The only things you said were that they claimed knowledge of PR's(which they did do), implied they were an investigative(which they didn't, as podo said), and they softed an innocent on someone(which they sorta did, but this lose a lot of meaning if you aren't assuming they claimed an investigative). You then put all that together in a blender, and realized none of it added up to a single role you could call them, and decided that meant part of what they were saying had to be untrue, therefore they are scum, without EVER considering that they could actually have just arrived at a number of conclusions through their analysis.

Don't think it really matters though, except I kinda do want to lynch you, but I don't think anybody else does. Like, does anybody else see dwlee as potentially scum here? I really feel like we need to look outside the established "probtown" group and the people that have been getting consistently pushed to the edge of being lynched.

pedit: pip, you really need to explain that read on me. I fucking suck man. And the only game you have with me was SF and UNIMUM(right? you were in unimum right?), where I was, well, a fucking marvel of posting. I was always there, I was on top of the entire game, and I had something to say about EVERYTHING.

[Cerberus v666]

None of that is actually as damning as you say it is. Responding to you about why they said what they did about tictac/flubbernugget would have, indeed, outed at least one town PR(that's not a bunch, so there is some exaggeration going on there, but yeah. A town PR.), they did not technically have any information on any town pr's(they knew flubbernugget was a neighborizer and clearly wanted to conceal that, so sure, lie, but obviously a protown one, and any other information they had was purely due to his claim, and thus unverified, because of the next point), and they never claimed to actually have any information on anyone due to their role. They *never* softed/claimed investigative...all they did was say, essentially..."we have cause to believe that x is town".

The same way that I have cause to believe that a certain specific slot in the game whose flavor is connected to my own, is town.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah. The only things you said were that they claimed knowledge of PR's(which they did do), implied they were an investigative(which they didn't, as podo said), and they softed an innocent on someone(which they sorta did, but this lose a lot of meaning if you aren't assuming they claimed an investigative). You then put all that together in a blender, and realized none of it added up to a single role you could call them, and decided that meant part of what they were saying had to be untrue, therefore they are scum, without EVER considering that they could actually have just arrived at a number of conclusions through their analysis.

Don't think it really matters though, except I kinda do want to lynch you, but I don't think anybody else does. Like, does anybody else see dwlee as potentially scum here? I really feel like we need to look outside the established "probtown" group and the people that have been getting consistently pushed to the edge of being lynched.

pedit: pip, you really need to explain that read on me. I fucking suck man. And the only game you have with me was SF and UNIMUM(right? you were in unimum right?), where I was, well, a fucking marvel of posting. I was always there, I was on top of the entire game, and I had something to say about EVERYTHING.

Cerbikins you have posts that are just so cute and cuddly and towny that I can't help townreading you even though you haven't done much this game. <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

The actual answer, is that you echo exactly how I approach certain situations, my biggest issue, your lack of presence recently and in general, you made a point of expressing even though I haven't said anything about it.

Hmm.

Fine. I'll accept it for the moment. Can we vote Dwlee together?

Also, I'll be pissed if FS turns out to actually be scum(and man, if they are, I am going to LOVE it when someone uses this EXACT post and calls me out on laying out the groundwork for dealing with an eventual FS scum flip), since I've spent basically all my effort this game working to keep them from getting lynched.

[Cerberus v666]

Spoiler: lots of ways of saying the same thing

"we would out a bunch of prs by claiming"
"I do not have info on town prs"
Eat ropeeeeeee

Softs inno -> would out town prs by claiming -> no info on town prs.
Eat rope eat rope eat rope eat rope eat rope eat rope eat rope

"we would out a bunch of prs by claiming"
"I do not have info on town prs"
Eat ropeeeeeee

You said that my role was that I knew a bunch of information on town PRs.
I did not claim that my role was that I knew a bunch of information on town PRs.

claiming that you woukd out town prs by claiming meanns you have info on town prs. You cant backtrack this

No.

ARE YOU SAYING YOU DIDNT SOFT AN INNO? THAT WAS AN INNO SOFT 100%.
EAT ROPE EAT ROPE

Why was softing an innocent on Tictac scummy?

admits to softing an inno on tictac
"that was not a soft"

TPP just summarize everything you have softed.

Dwlee shut up you are not helping. Prattling on about TPP is just wasting thread space.

Sorry I am laying on a silver platter all of their fucking contradictions and that you see that as a waste of space. I will sit here and do nothing since apparently no matter what I do I am just wasting.thread space =_=

Lol. Can we go back.to talking about how tpp claimed that claiming would out prs but later said he had no info on prs?

OGRE THEY CONTRADICTED THEIR CLAIMS PLEASE

On a serious, saying info about your role is claiming on a smaller level. Stop trying to argue semantics and answer how tf your contradicton makes sense

Ok so:
Claiming woukd out prs
I have no info on prs
I have info from my role
sjntbfbnfj

I am not 3p

that's what i wanted to hear. sorry, dreams are weird, and usually someone's alignment is the exact opposite of what I dream so if i dream they flip scum then they're always town (but of course i don't use that to clear them while i'm playing the game), but what is the "exact opposite" of benign third party?

My point was that before someone says the obvious "OMG DON"T PUT YOURSELF IN YOUR AUTO CIRCLE!!" is not relevant.

meh, everyone has themselves in their own circle. i kind of roll my eyes when i see someone claiming to townread themselves but anyway carry on.

not crumbing softing same thing

TPP what was your intention with that soft?

We've been saying we have

✫

*

¨

*

.

¸

reasons

¸

¸

.

✫

*

to believe that tictac is town since the start of day 2. It's just the first soft that anybody paid any attention to. I can't answer your question more fully without outing a bunch of PRs for no reason; sorry. If anybody I believed to be town were in danger of being lynched I'd explain enough to prevent that from happening but as it is all you really need to know is that I have a townread on tictac that will be explained sooner or later. Possibly sooner not until my hydra partner is less busy.

I do not have a role that "lets me know other power roles".

oh yea.
So you say your claim wiuld out prs becauss you can tell who prs are (such as a vigilante) and yet that makes no sense because your claim wouldnt out that

p-edit: Why did you do my work for me? Posting this anyway because damnit, I did the work anyway.

it wasnt the same thing over and over again. There are different points.
(Softed an inno, admitted to it being an inno, the info on pr things)

4324. You don't have to admit it, but the logic you used to hold all that together was indeed myopic.