A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[tictac]

Hello all.

beeboy Seniors read is exaggerated to the point that I don't think it's even supposed to look real. Crosses over into not alignment indicative.
Ogre sheeping it looks scummy, especially since Ogre is pretty new.
@Ogre What was your motivation to do so?

Agree that the beeboy Sakura dip was waffly.

Wrong lynch entry "I MISSED YOU ALL SO MUCH" felt forced to me, like he is making really sure that everyone knows he hasn't chatted with anyone pre-game.

there's a third one that you haven't considered.

~M

I don't get this.
Presumably Axle would know what his motivations for his own vote were. What did you mean here?

another site a long time ago that no longer exists.

What was the theme/purpose of that site?

davesaz is ringing all kinds of bells for me.
Axl push on hydras was pretty obviously jokey, and dave makes it way bigger thing than it is, then quickly retracts when he gets heat from it.

I'm gonna guess that you don't know me, in which case you can't be blamed for not knowing how I play.

Self meta.

I'm not sure what to think of this buddy offer thing. If you had done the same to me, I'd be thinking it could be a trap. It's a no-win question -- agree to buddy and you're scum eager to make a friend, refuse or fail to notice and you're scum wanting to avoid picking up obligations.

dave is in the mindset of looking for traps and I see no attempt to understand beeboys motivation. Possible town motivation for how beeboy acts towards Senior is pretty clear, even if he is exaggerating the read he is getting.

Not trying to interfere with your conversation, but this is as good a post as any to use as an entry for my own questions.

Why say this? Why not just ask your questions? Looks like you are trying to step carefully.
VOTE: davesaz

On hydras: would it be possible to sign on top rather than at the bottom?
I tend to read from top to bottom and it would be helpful to know the writer on the first readthrough.

[tictac]

Tic tac if you think I a exaggerating you don't understand seniors play at all.

Nothing they have done so far is towny. They also shouldn't have voted Snarky. They wouldn't mess up like that and do scummy things as town twice in a row then leave thread.

Neither one would be playing this safe and reserved as town. No one is this safe as town.

Well I don't have exp with either, so possible that you have meta-reasons to think so. Doesn't look very convincing from where I am sitting.

Don't get why the Snarky vote is scummy. Looks like "I'll pretend this is serious" RVS lurker-vote to me.

Agree that they haven't really done anything townly so far either thou.

[tictac]

Mirhawk told me it wasn't scummy I backtracked and agreed with him it was just bad.
I am not saying I didn't flip flop my read I am saying it is rationalized and want to know what is wrong with it.

Why are you giving such weight to what Mirhawk says?
What is your read on him?

As to why it was scummy: There's a disconnect between the intensity of push and the ease with which you change your reads.

[tictac]

Did I do it right?

No

[tictac]

They know it is an easy unreliable push.

Then why aren't they pushing it? A naked vote isn't really pushing.

[tictac]

They know it is an easy unreliable push.

Then why aren't they pushing it?

A naked vote isn't really pushing.

Answer the question.

Why are you defending them so much?

I'm questioning your motives. I don't get why your read on that slot is so strong.

Why put a vote on a known lynch bait instead of doing something useful?

Voting for a scumread is scummy now?

[tictac]

1) that is part of the problem coasting after doing scummy shot is bad

You mean scummy vote?

2) I like to hard push the scumiest the player in the game give me a better option I you don't like it.

Not gonna give advice on how to squeeze a townread out of me

3) they didn't justify the read that's the problem

They haven't done anything else either.

You are defending the scummy slot, good shit.

Your point 2 and 3 contradict each other btw pushing a scum read isn't scummy what is the potential problem with my motif?

The problem is that I can't see a convincing thought process behind your pushes.
Your read on Mirhawk is the only reason I'm not currently voting for you. (I agree with you there)

[tictac]

Tictac what's your read on Seniors?

He hasn't done anything so null.

[tictac]

Do you believe that scumbeeboy would not be claiming to townread Mirhawk in this game?

It's possible the he would, but less likely that his read would happen to coincide with mine.
It's a case of thought-sync and that counts as a townpoint for beeboy.

Why? Who do you think he would fake a read on instead?

Dunno.

Do you expect scum to share no reads with you at all?

No I don't expect that

[tictac]

Tictac if your read on them is null I don't understand this defense of them at all. Seniors has done stuff, nothing useful though and the Snarky vote was pretty bad.

Can't really question beeboys thought process without questioning it, can I?
Whether Seniors is scum or not is immaterial to whether beeboy has valid reasons to think so.

[tictac]

Tictac what part of my read on seniors is fake and scummy?

The part where you have a strong read on a slot that hasn't done anything.
How is this difficult to get?

[tictac]

That makes sense. So it's more his thought process behind the Mirhawk townread that you're identifying with?

Correct.

What do you think of my point that not doing anything is, in itself, scummy?

Disagree. We are less than 24 hours into the game. It's a non-indicator at this point.
Which one are you?

[tictac]

Seniors:
Calling Snarkys (non-existent) push weird is indeed scummy.
Don't see that coming from anywhere else than "making stuff up to defend myself" POV.

spiffeh, he voted me that's a push in my books.

semantics?

It really isn't. A naked vote isn't a push.
Also don't really buy you freaking out with only 5 votes on you. Been burned by fake rage in the past.

Disagree with the Cakez push.
Just played with town-cakez and the quality of his day 1 reads really isn't alignment indicative.
@Seniors (both of ya) Have you played with Cakez before?

Don't get the podobog thing. Will look into it.


Amihan is town. Don't see scum quickly countering a miller-claim like that.
Unless pist & Amihan are both scum and this is a gambit. Bit weird that they both didn't post in the beginning and then came on at the same time. Large coincidence can mean it didn't actually happen by accident and would explain the Amihan shift to Mirhawk(which I really don't get otherwise). Would be pretty ballsy move if it's true.


Pist prob scum, but 2 millers isn't impossible. Jester also not impossible.
@pist is your beeboy vote real? What is the reasoning?
Your level of participation doesn't fly. Give us reads.
I actually know you somewhat, thou you won't recognize this name. You ain't this bad.

Nothing really chanced in my dave-read, but I think we have better prospects now. pist>FS>dave
VOTE: pist

"Ogre is pretty new" is factually incorrect and I'm concerned that you throw in that statement as some kind of padding for "sheeping looks scummy".
You'll agree then that sheeping looks towny at times. Depending on motication and whether the player is new or knows what they're doing.

So you've decided that because I am new sheeping is scummy, but you don't attempt to figure out whether I am actually new.

I counted your completed games(3). That's new in my books. Are you an alt then?
Sheeping an unconvincing read (which beeboy read on Seniors was at the time of 125) is scummier from a new player than an experienced one, since there is less chance that it's done for the reactions. FS push on you is reflecting well on you thou.

Examples:
A whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing. Comes into what seems like an accusation at beeboy's read and nullifies it with the end.

Not everything needs to be about scumreading people. Analysis on what's happening in the thread has value. If I didn't think beeboys early reasons for Senior push looked fake I wouldn't have scumread Ogre for sheeping them.

The irony is that this post looks forced.

Hokay.

1) It wasn't

Was too.

2) Why mention Dave only instead of me who also thought it wasnt jokey?

Didn't see you pushing Axl and then saying you didn't.

[tictac]

Yeah, no.
podobog just looks new to me.
No read yet.

[tictac]

Interesting. I don't get why tictac would engage, but not follow up with a response.

What are you talking about?

[tictac]

I think it was tictac that said my opening post was forced? I haven't been playing Mafia for a few months now so it's pretty refreshing to be back and I'm happy. So you can say it's forced, but it's pretty much not.

This? What is there to respond to?
I thought your entry as forced. You say it's not.
Useless to argue about.

[tictac]

You said you will be busy. How does that prove that your entry wasn't forced?

[tictac]

I wasn't aware that two posts on a subject (not counting replies) could be classified as a "push". Certainly wouldn't be the way I think of it. Evidently your standards are lower.

Giving reasons to scumread someone does count as pushing.
Don't really get how you'd think it doesn't.

[tictac]

Ah. That perspective does make her look more natural

pedit: So you are saying it was a reaction test?

[tictac]

My comment was, in part, a means of prodding you to find out if you would be defensive about it being called that.

Yeah, ok. You did say that.
But not before you got heat from mirhawk for not voting Axl.

[tictac]

My problem is not clearly stating the purpose of those posts

before

you were under pressure for not voting.
I'll look into it.

[tictac]

100 is the first one that can conceivably be read as a nullread on Axl, and you were already under questioning.
Still looks like aborted push to me.

And I don't buy that you are as eager to avoid enemies as town as you are as scum.
Unless someone who has direct meta on you verifies that, the read stands.

[tictac]

V/LA until Tuesday

[tictac]

tictac has been prodded.

Ugh. I was just writing this..


Catching up. I'm on page 30.

9 players in the game (not counting multiple hydra heads) have direct meta that this is how I ask questions. You are also welcome to refer to my wiki. A great example is 581, where I famously blew up at Whatisswag for questioning exactly the same kinds of posts.

Name 3 players who can confirm your style of questioning.
Not gonna go into indirect meta reading at this stage of the game. I'd never catch up.

tictac's opening posts screamed newbScum at me, which is weird because tictac doesn't seem to consider himself new.

I don't have any very strong townreads, but tentatively I townlean to some degree the following:
beeboy, SirC, dave, Sakura, Piper, Axel, podo

What was nebscummish about my opening posts? WL sheeping Sakura here?
What is the reason to townlean Cakez & dave?

I like pist's reaction to the claim. I don't think scum would actually counter by saying "well technically you DID post first" especially when that was factually incorrect anyway.

Making stuff up to defend yourself is towny now??

Would be surpised if there are three completed - I only remember the one.

Three completed game threads with your posts in them. Didn't really look inside.

The problem is you're making the assumption that I'm new

I looked and came into a conclusion that you were. I was mistaken, it happens.

So I'm wondering what you're hoping to gain from this line of questioning as I feel I've clarified everything and you're talking in circles.

I'm

going in circles? I made a point about you in my first post & pretty much lost interest once it became clear you weren't actually new. You are the one that keeps returning to it.

most of my read is coming from town reading Cakez and beeboy.

Why are you townreading Cakez?

You have more than five games to your repertoire and you're actually trying to argue the waffling is a scum tell thing?

How is that unbelieable to you?
Waffling isn't a strong tell, but it is a tell and it's a pretty commonly used one.

If your last few posts are legitimate, and you're willing to engage in the new things that have happened in the game which are unrelated to the wagon on you, then I'm totally happy to unvote here. If in my reread, I reevaluate your slot more positively, then I'm totally happy to unvote here.

Ungh. Offer to unvote Seniors in response to OMGUS from Seniors.

I haven't re-read yet, that is still coming, but I had this thought. What about a "Musical" claim. i.e.: just what Musical you are from, and nothing else?

Against.

Plotinus is V/LA for a week. I've had some bad news.

I hope you are ok.

sircakez is prob town btw

Whyy?

Your assumption is correct; I am here to pick up Plotinus's song where theirs left off.

8 terrible votes on the wall
8 terrible votes~

Why are those votes terrible? Just cause they don't agree with you?

To be continued tomorrow. I'm going blind. :/

[tictac]

Catching up. On page 40.

Originally, you said that beeboy's push seemed exaggerated to the point where it wasn't supposed to look serious, hence not alignment indicative. I agreed with this; when did you change your mind?

140 made me think I might be wrong, so I probed at it.
When he started scumreading me for defending I figured he was serious.

Why do you think that his reads are bad?

Dodging this.
If Cakez is town I expect to be able to see it later in the game, but not if I give him an instruction manual.

tictac and cakez I'm having an issue with as they both seem to be saying *exactly the same thing* with regard to their scumread on me, and I mistook one for the other.

Is this still an issue for you?

Yes, but of all the arguments to pursue, is that the one scum chooses when counterclaimed? I don't think so.

Why not? I'd expect counterclaimed scum to panic and not make much sense.
What argument would scum!pist have chosen instead?

If you were in Pistach's shoes, noticed that the person who counterclaimed you posted first without claiming miller (and claiming miller in your first post is site standard), then counterclaimed after you claimed, would you point it out if town? If scum?

That is not the order of events.

But I don't think a scum pistachion would choose to fight a counterclaim by calling it a suspicious scum fakeclaim and voting me, rather than trying to either posit that 2 millers is possible or that I was gambitting a miller claim as town.

Oh you answered the earlier question already..
I guess I see that since you've actually seen 2 millers.
I disagree thou
If he thinks you are gambiting town he'd attack since you'd look like an easy lynch.
He miight think 2 millers would fly, but it would look like a huge stretch.

Sorry that pressuring Sakura, Mala, Cakes,

Texcat

and Amihan is stagnant reads.

Whut??
945&950 Liking the point about Mir being too certain about Amihan gambiting.

Except my certainty wasn't uninformed.

No, but it wasn't porportional to the decree of info town had either.
Didn't think it was a huge deal earlier, but I'm starting to see it.

Until the whole "if you guys let Beeboy lynch me" thing along with the bad catch up posts I wasn't actually 100% committed to the wagon and could have easily been swayed.

Oh, I thought you got serious earlier.

I have also played with SirCakez before and I scum read him for his posting and he wasn't scum.

Me too


I did skim recent events too, and yeah, Ranger ending up with Seniors & Mir as top scum is sketchy.
Current preferences pist>Seniors>Ranger>Mir

[tictac]

Prodge.
I'll have time for this tomorrow.

[tictac]

The only scummy thing they did was calling the Snarky vote a push and somehow getting a read off of him from his naked vote

EP has looked pretty town and hiplop's frustration seems genuine

I keep going back and forth on them and I'm actually leaning towards them being town if I had to guess

First time Spif pings me. Disagree with frustration feeling genuine.
This is not what a null read looks like.

I think it's notable how Dram pops back up the instant he gets a few votes on him.

I'm actually in class, ignoring everything the teacher is saying. I've nothing to do besides spam the f5 key <.<

So why is this the first time we see increased activity from you? Is this the first time you are bored in class?

if you think someone is legitimately scum then you go for it, that's the best case scenario, not "lynching someone you kinda think is scum but hoping for that information"

Huh. That's a good point from FS.
It's defending Swords/Ranger slot thou :/
Also, info-lynches are bad, but townies go for them all the time so not really a valid reason to scumread Axl.

That's a scum replace out

Ayp.

EP why do you always sound fake to me it makes me sad

Ayp.

Mirhawks post IMMEDIATELY made me suspicious of them. That's a weird sensation for me, it's not normal, but I read the couple posts leading up to him voting, and immediately felt like the slot was terrible.

Why? Early Mir looked towny to me.

I was reluctant because I thought some of his earliest posts had good content and I had mixed feelings about his reaction to Ami's gambit. I don't like his recent posts, though:

Huh. Maybe I was wrong about pist.
Feels insufficient for strongest scumread if your feelings match that closely to mine thou :/

I was scumreading him for playing similarly in a different game, he flipped town. I'm not sold yet.

That does seem to be a thing that happens.

Ugh. I was just writing this..

Finally

at this point.

Snarky is a quality vig shot, no point wagoning him.

Agree with this.

Yuck, bad word choice. Should have proofread that one.

[
Exhibit A: "See there's this perfectly reasonable explanation for why EP looks better but I'm going to ignore that explanation in favor of the explanation that paints us as scum"

What explanation is this?

tictac's 1203 I take issue with

What is the issue?

Tictac why is Post your top lynch still?

Response to Amihan gambit.
It wasn't the straight-up countervote of a townie who sees an abvious scum nor figuring what was going on of a townie in a weird situation.
She knew she needed to vote Ami and either made up a reason or looked at her ISO to find arguments.
Also didn't comment on anything else before Ami took back the CC.
I get a strong vibe of last-ditch effort from scum who thinks she's trapped in an impossible situation.
Also I said in 438 that I know her, and she has expressed no curiosity about that at all. I don't think she's the type of player who doesn't read, so I think it's indicative.

That said, I did get some strong sync with her later, so she has dropped in scumminess.

>"Ranger was sketchy for having Seniors and Mirhawk as top scum"
>Has Seniors as a preferred lynch above me.
(Not to mention, Mirhawk below me but still in the lynchable list.)

Yer a replace. I expected you to have fresh perspective and you didn't.

His whole catch up post looks like busy work and he never pushes pistachi0n who he is apparently voting for

Needed to catch up to know I was pushing in a direction I wanted to go. I'm glad I waited.

Still need to look at Rangers progression in more detail, but I'm caught up more or less.

This looks good.
VOTE: Seniors

Seniors>Ranger>pist>Mir

[tictac]

I also have questions for Ranger.

Spiff is prob town here even if he can't see obv scum.

That's the problem.

Spiffeh

does

see obvscum in my experience.

Why was Seniors obvscum on page 9?

{tictac, Mirhawk}
{Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

{tictac, True Ogre}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

Same page, reordering accuracy. This is a more accurate reads list.

What does reordering accuracy mean here? What are the relevant tiers?

[tictac]

Seniors looks more towny from the claim.

Still happy with pist scumread last elaborated in 1646.
Really don't like how she still hasn't interacted with my posts

at all

.
VOTE: pist

[tictac]

Yeehokay then
VOTE: Dramonic I do wanna hear whats up there.
Iwanna hear whyI'm scummy or how I'm less memorable than dramonic.

[tictac]

Anybody out herenow?

[tictac]

comeon now. Nobody wants to talkto drunk-me?

[tictac]

Why is everyone so opposed to Tictac all of a sudden?

Why are youso opposed to me?
Gimme a case plz.

[tictac]

Mirhaws townier btw from NKA and so is Pipez

[tictac]

I like to end wordz with a 'z'

[tictac]

pist is still scum btw and she wont talk to mee

[tictac]

I'm gonna go to bed if nobody wants to talk

[tictac]

Mirhawks wig is funny buti don't want one.

[tictac]

Ya guys are no fun

[tictac]

Also wanna hear why dave keeps saying he forgets stuffwhen he's near eidetic.

[tictac]

Beeboy hasn't posted after the dawn! How is that even possible?

[tictac]

Whut??

[tictac]

Whereare you going?

[tictac]

Amihan?

[tictac]

Don't leave!

[tictac]

You are worrying me Amihan. Are you ok??

[tictac]

Ok then. I guess thats all you wanted to say. I hope ya are well.

[tictac]

VOTE: pist
Back to this. I'll add claiming additional PR instead of claiming flavour to the charges. How the heck is that preferable?

Other news:
- In Cheetory mafia Amihan faked a guilty for reactions (while avoiding being explicit about it). She did this as scum. I wonder if the alt-switch was designed to direct our meta-reading to Marquis games and away from Cheetory :/ I've been writing her off as town from the gambit and I need to stop doing that.
- I'm unconfortable with how podo seems to be following Cakez around (latest instance her vote on me). The arc of 1.scumread Ranger-slot 2. Townread her from naked reads seems scummy to me. Like he first wanted to scumread a player who is known for her reads and then wanted to townread her once he found out she was off-base. Podo might feel more comfortable following a scummy path if he's sheeping a townie. I'm still witholding judgement on Cakez since I tunneled him day 1 last game and the things I find scummy here are the things I found scummy there.
- Cakez is right about me being less active here than I was in the mini. He was less active there and town. I don't see how he thinks it's AI. Nevertheless, criticism received. I will endeavor to put more effort in.

[tictac]

The middle of my scale was a four, which is null. Tictac was at five, a slight town read. With the flips we had, that has dropped.

Ya think the flips implicate me somehow? How does that work?

(snip)

(snip)And here in particular, pushing to lynch someone based (at least in part) off of it (or even chain a series of lynches) is especially bad.

(snip)

This is a little similar to Cakes post, but not as bad.

Why no comment of Podo also voting based off NKA?

I was right!

How did you guess that??

I think there was another vote but this is the top of the wagon in VCs.
Mirhawk/Tictac/Skybird made up the core of the wagon so three bad votes there already. PP had a case for Pist I think so ok I guess.
Ogre why did you start the wagon?

I had a case on Pist on day one. How do ya not know that? Have ya been scumreading me without reading my posts?

Back to my windmill for now. Though I doubt it will result in him talking.

Why then?

Your "result" was that she "wasn't miller". So you got "innocent child" as a result? And this was something to wagon?

I'm having similar thoughts. Both role (Rolecop, etc.) and action (Tracker, etc.) investigations don't make sense to me in terms of what would incite a pistachion vote. And if you're a cop who investigated pistachion and voted her...

No, it's gotta be rolecop. I'm betting Pistachions role (miller+IC) has a nonstandard name.

Can it with the PR speculation.

VOTE: podo

[tictac]

I'm not voting based off of NKA (night kill assessment, right?). If you're going to accuse me of something, it's more sheeping than anything else.

I don't actually find NKA scummy. I asked about that because didn't follow your logic.
Sheeping is indeed what I find scummy about you.
- Sheeping Cakez & asking him to make a case looks like you are avoiding voicing opinions of your own.
- Deadtown sheep would make sense from town-you, but I don't actually see evidence if it affecting your reads.

I don't have every one of your posts ingrained in my head.

Pist was in my scumreads for quite a while.

I was under the impression that podo already didn't like you from before.

2492

tictac's 2578 kinda rubs me the wrong way.

Thanks for reminding me.

tictac's 1203 I take issue with

What is the issue?

You didn't answer this. You keep saying things like this and not backing it up.

I also love the conflicting emotion of being townread for what I think is a bad reason.

Nah. That read was the first think from Seniors that I really liked.

I got a tickle from the "can it on the PR spec guize" comment

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7654096

VOTE: tic 7 pages in, this might be a hammer idc, tic is scum

I'm not thou :/

No need for platitudes. It's a valid line of inquiry.

It really isn't. The IC-thing was unpredictable. Without it we would have lynched pist and Ogre would have been next. Would have been suicidal for scum to do that.

(yeah I went through ISO to back up stuff)

At least you are giving reasons. The scumread-first-then-ISO-cases are null for you, but it does make you really opaque as to your actual reasons. Makes the cases hard to take seriously.

The early note about TWL's "I missed you so much" being forced was bullshit to start.

No it wasn't.

142 - is a gross early fencesit to start his Seniors read

Null is null.

144 - 175 has a bizarre defense of Seniors that looks like WKing. This was questioned by multiple people.

It was. I still don't get why.

Then in 483 after an extended absence, Seniors randomly becomes a scumread?

Cause he actually had content at that point and it was scummy.

After this he disappears for an extended period of time and then dumps two walls full of things that look like they serve no purpose other then looking like he's doing something 1203 and 1361

Catching up.

Then 1603 is yet another bad wall with a sheeping Seniors vote at the end. Develops a random Ranger scumread here with no explanation.

That's a post by Spif. What post are you referring to here?

And then....that's it. He disappeared at deadline, scummy in itself.

I got other stuff to do.

His posts today have consisted of a sheep onto now-confirmed Pist

Still don't get how you'd miss my scumread on pist yesterday. Specially with you doing an ISO on me.

and then an also-sheeped Dram vote

Dram-should-speak-more vote. Also wanted to see if he'd increase activity like last time he was wagoned, but the pist thing intervened and there was no real wagon.

then back to Pist,

Again: pist was a scumread for a good while.

then finally a weak Podo vote in 2578 despite nearly no mention of him in the wall preceding.

The preceding 'wall': 2487
'nearly no mention' is a huge misrep.

I do have the impression that her posts wouldn't look so shitty if they were distributed through the thread rather then bunched up in quotewalls.

I can do that from now on. I don't get why, but whatevs.

[tictac]

No way Ogre is bsing a result here, that would be suicide for scum.

Ya might be town.

[tictac]

I'd like to point out that Ranger's slot looked scummy when the slot was inactive. When Ranger replaced in, and made good posts, I townread her. Oh, by the way, "....then wanted to townread her once he found out she was off-base." Was she off base? She was town, and you just said that Ranger is known for her reads.

If ye'r scum you would know.
Her top-scum were Seniors & Mirhawk, then me.
I townread Mir, Seniors might be scum, but not in my top 3.
I know I'm town.
So yeah, there's a decent possibility that she was off base.

[tictac]

I have Dave as town.

Why?

[tictac]

Like, am I White-Knighting TicTac right now?

If anything I would have though you would have brought up that in #1203, TicTac seems to be expressing suspicion of you, without actually saying it. He asks TWL why they are Townleaning you (twice, including one "Whyy?"). He asks podo why he is Townreading you. But he never says that he himself is scum-reading you,

That is because I wasn't scumreading Cakez.
I've said it a few times: I find some aspects of Cakez play scummy, but I know he does them as town so I am compensating for that. Doesn't mean I understand strong townreads on him at all.
I am currently trying to figure out if high-volyme + low reading falls into the non-indic category.
The misrep & reaching doesn't but I did get a bit of sync with the Ogre-thing.

[tictac]

@dave What is your read on Skybird?

Back to my windmill for now. Though I doubt it will result in him talking.

Why then?

Ya posted after this, but didn't answer.

[tictac]

Tictac why is Post your top lynch still?

Pist*

Yeah.
Either ya didn't care at all about the questions you were asking yesterday or you deliberately misrepped me when ya called my vote on pist 'sheeping'.
VOTE: Cakez

[tictac]

Then Ranger flipped, you were a high scum read, and I consider you the most likely scum of her top three. Me voting for you is evidence of her flip affecting my read.

Ranger was scumreading Seniors more than me.
Spif was convinced (by Seniors )to vote me but continued to push Ranger he did so. I don't think that scumread was very serious.
Spif also scumread Cakez, but ya don't seem to have any problem voting the same as him.
Ya voted me after Cakez did and your reasoning seems to be 'other people seem to think this is a good idea', emphasis on Cakez (only name mentioned in 2458).
So yeah, I see ya following Cakez, not seeing the deadtown sheep.

I wanted Cakez to case you because 1) I'm a bit lazy, and 2) I don't know that Cakez is town, and I wanted to see him make a solid case. If he couldn't do it (which he did), then it gives me more reason to suspect him. It was a chance to get a better read on Cakez, so I took it.

What parts of the case did you agree with? Did you read my defense? What did ya think of it? Still think the case is solid?

[tictac]

Also this is super sketchy
Has an apparent townread on me then immediately votes me as soon as the IC votes me

Calling 2677 a townread on you is strechy. It's pretty clear that I was conflicted about you. Specifically said that misrep & stretching isn't null. Did you think I was townreading those?
The vote was cause you apparently not knowing about my pist read bothered me,so I did an ISO to see if it was plausible.
Found you questioning the read yesterday so didn't think it was.

I also notice that ya made no comment on the point while defending against everyone else.
Also asked clarification on one of the points on the case

Then 1603 is yet another bad wall with a sheeping Seniors vote at the end. Develops a random Ranger scumread here with no explanation.

That's a post by Spif. What post are you referring to here?

Ya didn't answer, nor did ya comment on the defense very much at all. 2672 is the only thing I can find.
Why are ya focusing on self-defense instead on me?

[tictac]

This is kind of weird. Could be an attempt to engage (alhtough he's not addresing Spiffeh directly)

Thought the ping was notable cause Spif was otherwise so town. I don't necessarily have deeper reasons for everything I write.

[tictac]

it's not the scum number that I'm worried about, but the openly fishing of the SK/vig thing that's bothering me

Pretty sure beeboy-slot is town.

[tictac]

You made comments about stuff people were scumreading me for being not-AI so I assumed that meant you were on the other side of the bridge.

I'm against pushing on non-AI things in generality
.
It's the same thing as with early Seniors.
Bad logic is bad regardless of the target.

[tictac]

(snip) Unspoilering for readibility.

-Skybird

The cause of that vote was because of the unvote and not commenting on anything else, which I find pretty bad considering an IC just revealed who was the leading wagon which means you should be reanalyzing and Skybird didn't.

So Skybird should immediately have new reads or avoid unvoting a

conftown

if she's town. That is backwards. Re-thinking things takes more time than making things up.

As well upon review, Skybird didn't even mention the Investigative result when voting Pist,

And why should she? It's not like Ogres result on pist was easy to miss. Do you think Sky was unaware of Ogres post?

only said

Cakez, why do you think Pist's miller claim is more town based?

I too would like to get this sorted before the game goes much further.
VOTE: Pistachion

"Just sorting someone" is an excellent excuse to join a wagon without seriously committing.

True, yet I see townies doing this all the time. I seem to remember you doing it in the Mini even.

And then

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

What's there to comment about? Pist is now confirmed town. I voted her because I have True Ogre as town. It turns out through Mod communication that Pist is town. I unvoted. Then RL intervened and I had to go do other stuff.

That's straight up backtracking.

How is that backtracking?
While it's possible that you didn't see Ogres claim the first time around,I don't believe that you didn't see the mod-announce.
Sky wanted to sort pist, pist was sorted and Sky unvoted. Where is the backtracking?

I'll add that not seeing Ogres post would be scummy in itself, cause it means you didn't pay attention to context. To me that speaks of pattern-matchy mindset of someone who is looking for things to push instead of looking for scum.

[tictac]

Most of his content today feels like refuting my push on him and not scumhunting. Defense is fine but he's not doing much else.

Wtf? Did ya miss that I'm pushing you?
Also, have too been scumhunting.

[tictac]

I hope my flip will convince him to reevaluate how terrible his reads are.

Ya do get townpoints from wanting to scold players from beoynd the grave.

[tictac]

i don't see how podo could be any townier than he is right now

Not going that far.

[tictac]

I'd be happier with Skybird than Axel; why don't you like the Cakez wagon?

Unlike SirCakez, Skybird isn't contributing to the game. Cakez at the very least presents a visble thought progression that reads similarly to his play in our Newbie game together.

Translation: "I prefer a policy to a Cakez-lynch"

But unlike dramonic, Skybird keeps asking questions that don't lead into anything. In other words, unlike dramonic, Skybird is playing like she's trying to look helpful and like she's trying to figure things out, while dramonic just doesn't care. Despite endless questions to people with no followup, Skybird is also very limited on reads. And when she does give reads, it's when she's called out for it, and the reasons are either very general or just amount to "looks bad".

"This is why I like this policy over the other"

Spoiler: last Skybird posts since her pistachion unvote

Announcement: pistachi0n is town-aligned.

UNVOTE: pistachion

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

What's there to comment about? Pist is now confirmed town. I voted her because I have True Ogre as town. It turns out through Mod communication that Pist is town. I unvoted. Then RL intervened and I had to go do other stuff.

Dram, I think you are wrong on your Davesaz read. I feel he is town here. He hasn't been very active but he is reading the thread and asking questions.

You've commented on Axel. What about Podo makes you think he's scum?

Welcome Marquis!

Pistach, I get better as the game goes on.

What's bothering me is why you feel the need to talk about this at all.

You brought it up as a scum point against me. I'm responding with the truth.

After looking at last night's actions, how has that changed your reads?

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Who do you think is scum? When are we going to all realise you're town?

-snip-

I'm having a hard time figuring scum out. I still think FS is scummy, but am concerned that everyone else seems to have shifted away from them. Their posting did change about halfway through D1. FS is smart enough to know that they were being scum read and to shift their comments to seem more town. I also don't think fruit (wig) vendor is AI.

I'm leaning more scum now on tictac. I read through his ISO a few days ago and didn't see much to indicate to me he was scum, but I also didn't see a lot to indicate he was town. That hasn't changed much since I read his ISO and think he could be scum skating by.

I apologize because I'm going to have to finish this up when I get back. Husband just informed me that we have to leave NOW to go look at a boat we are thinking of buying.

Welcome itlepip!

I'm not sure what you mean with post 2648. Do you mean you tried to read him and can't quite figure him out? Or did you try to engage him? lynch him? What exactly did you try to do?

who are your next best guesses for scum?

tictac

@everyone: I've been coming down with a 39ºC fever, hopefully this'll resolve soon, im not stating V/LA because i've already been inactive enough if it lasts enough to last past prod timer then i suggest i am replaced instead of prodded.

I hope you get to feeling better soon! Having a fever sucks.

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Who do you think is scum? When are we going to all realise you're town?

-snip-

I'm having a hard time figuring scum out. I still think FS is scummy, but am concerned that everyone else seems to have shifted away from them. Their posting did change about halfway through D1. FS is smart enough to know that they were being scum read and to shift their comments to seem more town. I also don't think fruit (wig) vendor is AI.

I'm leaning more scum now on tictac. I read through his ISO a few days ago and didn't see much to indicate to me he was scum, but I also didn't see a lot to indicate he was town. That hasn't changed much since I read his ISO and think he could be scum skating by.

I apologize because I'm going to have to finish this up when I get back. Husband just informed me that we have to leave NOW to go look at a boat we are thinking of buying.

True Ogre, I wanted to get back to you on this since I didn't get a chance to finish out.

I want to scum read Mirhawk but I am going back and forth on this read. Part of the reason I want to scum read him is because he is scum reading me and I agree that is a really shitty reason to scum read someone. I don't think he's right on Dave being scum. I have Dave as town. Most of the things Mirhawk has pointed out against Dave are him asking meaningless questions and not taking strong stances. But town is going to disagree on who we think are scum so again, this isn't a strong reason for scum reading him. I did like post 879 from Mirhawk. That really reads town to me. I don't agree with calling FS town just because they are a fruit vendor which Mirhawk is basically doing. If I was a mod this would be a great scum role just because most people do read it as a town role. I also didn't like that Mirhawk didn't seem to give any consideration to those of us saying Ranger was town. Anyway, this is basically the argument I am having with myself about whether Mirhawk is town or scum.

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

-snip-

I still kind of think Seniors is town.

You're probably right. I don't think your wagon analysis piece was going to result in anything productive;

two town counter wagons doesn't really mean much with how the scum team was behaving.

-snip-

Why is this game dead all of a sudden
Spiffeh y did you have to die with your great activity ugh
For the tictac case - just look at his posts on the last page and tell me that's not scum.

While I'll commend Cakez if he's scum here because this post is pretty decently ballsy, this post also feels pretty incredibly fake. As I've said before, I don't mind when people read into dead town's reads and all that good stuff but following them blindly when you didn't really follow the player that closely the day before is pretty fucking iffy, and these sorts of "I'll miss you Spiffeh!" posts never really ring true to me.

What do you mean by the bolded PP? How do you know how the scum team was behaving?

In the second part of the quote, I agree with the "I'll miss you Spiffeh" sentiment ringing false. Put this quote along with the "I tried to save you Ranger" quote from Cakez and he just feels incredibly scummy today.

I'm caught back up now and I think it's time to vote.

VOTE: Sir Cakez

(Note: "I also don't think fruit (wig) vendor is AI." What does that mean? Did nobody question it?)

Why not just ask the question yourself? This looks more like "you should suspect Sky more or you are incompetent" AtE then an actual thing you are confused about.

For example with going to a townread on Mirhawk, her reasons just read like things scum think sound good. As in, after giving basic reasons to both townread and scumread Mirhawk that anyone could have or has already noticed, she finally settles on a weak townread because "I feel he has made some good points on Cakez".

Analysis is scummy now?

Nacho can you honestly tell me her play doesn't look like scum "scumhunting" based on... how do I put it, what scum objectively think sounds good/reasonable? And based on who seems more agreeable versus more lynchable? Basically her posts and opinions (when she actually provides them when people actually ask for them) just feel so fake, going with the flow of opinion against each player, and just... asasdffaskjhf. HER PLAY IS JUST SO APPARENTLY SCUM TO ME SINCE DAY 1 AND I FEEL LIKE I'M STARING DOWN SOME SORT OF ROBOT ALIEN HYBRID THAT NOBODY ELSE SEES.

Switching to blatant AtE now

I'm having an extremely hard time buying that her posts this game, including the most recent ones, serve more of a purpose than scum coasting and trying to at least do more than the laziest town, which may or may not be me/dramonic.

ALSO IN CAPS, WHY DO WE KEEP DOING THIS THING WHERE MULTIPLE PEOPLE AGREE SHE'S SCUM, SHE DISAPPEARS OR SOMETHING, AND THEN WE VOTE OTHER PEOPLE FOR ACTIVELY LOOKING BAD AND NOT CARING INSTEAD OF INACTIVELY LOOKING BAD BUT TRYING TO LOOK GOOD.

I just. am so frustrated by all of this. like maybe my all caps-ing looks kind of unnecessary

Nah. It looks like AtE

to everyone else but I don't get how we always have this pattern of multiple likely-town players agreeing on a scumread on a player but then shiny things happen and wooo! town wagons instead and blahhhh

If it's not clear: I really don't like how this post uses AtE to push pressure off Cakez and on the lynchbait of the day.

[tictac]

We aren't voting you today beautiful. We're voting Skybird.

[tictac]

Why is Skybird lynchbait instead of scum?

Boils down to thinking that the reasons people scumread her for are crap.
When lots of people are attacking someone for things that can be more easily explained by being new, that says 'lynchbait' to me.
I'll make an list for ya, when I'm done catching up.

[tictac]

And you do realize that people use all types of pushes to get their preferred lynches through and that the more emotional methods are hints to an emotional investment in the push and thus are more likely to come from town?

That has not been my experience.
I've seen it used for manipulation way more often.

Check out ckd from day 2 onwards here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65168
He fooled me. Never again.

[tictac]

I think Mirhawk's recent line of questioning on Cakez is completely hollow.

What do ya think of my line?

[tictac]

They were literally 4 posts in a row. Out of those 4 posts, it was every post.
Duh.

^This.

[tictac]

Tictac, Mirhawk and Wrong Lynch/Mala

OMG Why are you not pushing me then?
Why so little commentary on my defense?

[tictac]

Not gonna catch up today, so I'm doing this and then going to bed. Promised a list, but since you made a case you get this instead:P

I feel like she's mostly playing by scanning the thread for mentions of her own name.

Paying attention to ones own name is a human-tell not a scumtell

Her first serious vote is in 1444 on someone she calls a scumlean not a scumread.

Yeah? How is being honest about the strength of her read a scumtell?
I know being all absolute surety so people are more likely to sheep is the mafiascum-meta, but that's not the only way to play. I've even read newbie-guides that advocate honesty instead. I find the refusal to conform refreshing.

1499 is really sticking out to me because this was 5 days or so before the end of the day phase so this was before the deadline scramble, long before, and friendless seniors asks her why she votes for them instead of ranger, a false dichotomy, but she doesn't call it out as such. why are those the only two options? (and this is a tangent but why is seniors responding to a post in which she says she's townreading ranger and scumleaning them to ask her why she's voting them instead of ranger?)

That's burden of proficiency. Not everyone sees what you see.

2369 ew.

aww shucks tell? Seen it more from town than from scum.
Or do you mean intending to vote me while not having paid attention to me?
Aren't you townreading podos sheeping? At least Sky says she'll do her own research before she votes. Also, she didn't. In 2491 she has done the reading and decided not to.

It's weird that she asks Dramonic why he thinks podoboq is scum in 2567 when she's been scumreading him herself.

It's weird that she wants a better read on Dram? I don't think so.

Her reads reversal on tictac in 2599 is also disturbing because she'd previously been defending tictac for more or less the same reasons that she's now scumreading him.

I'm pretty sure she wasn't townreading inactivity, and that is what she scumreads in that post.
It's a thing newbs scumread.

I think Marquis and/or Nacho complained about this too, but I don't think any of the points in 2659 that she brings up about Mirhawk have anything to do with Mirhawk's alignment. She tells us she's going back and forth but she doesn't show us, or rather what she shows us doesn't look like a genuine back and forth.

That's two points I think
1. Thinking non AI things are AI. This is a newbtell.
2. back and forth. Yeah, she isn't going back and forth in that post, obviously, cause going back and forth is a thing that happens in time, while a post is a static thing.
What she is doing is explaining her thoughts on the matter. Again, not forcing a read in one direction is a good thing, just not one site-meta agrees with.

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

Skybird, have you ever seen a situation in a game of mafia where a bad guy voted one of his scumfriends?

Townreading people for being convincing is def a thing newbs do. Heck I don't even know if it's a bad tell in all cases.

In 2913, she accuses Cakez of confbiasing but that's a townthing. Town confbias, scum misrep.

Burden of proficiency again. Terminology.

2925 I don't understand what podo agreeing with marquis has to do with mirhawk agreeing with cakez. I feel like she's probably making a deeper point than "why is it wrong for me to agree with somebody, you agreed with somebody too" but I'm not sure what it is.

Not a scumpoint

Mirhawk is the only slot she has a reads progression on. She asks a lot of questions of people (mostly denoted with a -), but the answers don't seem to affect her reads at all (denoted with a ++, --, or ==).

She addressed this in 2925. I thought it was a good defense.

Also, I do the colors, cause I think it's easier to read. It's also really easy to do. Ya should try it.

[tictac]

Posting from phone. Travelling.
I think sky is on the level. Can we not lynch town please?
I've been scumread by town!cakez in the past and this really isn't it. He was way more focused on me then. This cakez only pushes me when i point out he looks bad not doing so. He actually seem to care aboit getting me or mir lynched at all and jumps targets to whomever looks pushable at the moment, when it looks lile he isn't getting traction on his current push. I get that people are wary cause meta and i was too, but i really think he's just scum here.
Would alsi happily lynch marqus for reasons I've been over and think there's a good associve there from the sky push.
Pedit ogre,pist do yor flavours connect to the role?

[tictac]

So many typos

[tictac]

Don't wanna lynch pipes at all.

[tictac]

He's wrong here thou

[tictac]

They.

[tictac]

treating this claim like some sort of smoking gun.

What do you mean here?

[tictac]

Their Marquis read is misguided but I think they were scumreading Marquis on the assumption that Skybird would flip town and Marquis was strongarming a mislynch. I would be interested to see how that has changed over night.

Well obviously I don't want to lynch Marquis tonight

Wasn't aware that I advocated Pipez over Bird? I was

kinda

very clear about my preferences yesterday. "don't want to lynch Pipez at all" was what I said.
@podo point to where I pushed TPP please.

I'm conflicted about Cake again.

podo & Seniors look like good candidates.
Occurs to me that Seniors being a fruitvendor isn't confirmed. Could be that one of the scum is one and it's "first one to get run up claim fruitvendor" type of thing.
No wig tonight could mean avoiding possible trackers/watchers.
VOTE: Seniors

[tictac]

He avoided voting Skybird the entire day. His only votes were Pistach and me which is terrible.
P-edit: we lynched mafia why are you salty bro

I didn't avoid voting Skybird. I thought she was town and I was defending her.
Also: not vote-jumping isn't scummy

[tictac]

BTW quick thoughts on Sky iso before I forget. Cake looks a little better, TPP a little worse, Cerb is more confirmed, Marquis looks a little worse but still in my town circle, and tictac + mir look worse.

Can you expand on that? Especially why Marq looks worse?
pedit: Yeah, I agree with that.

[tictac]

-slams face into keyboard-
VOTE: tictac

What's your problem? I can't be wrong now?

[tictac]

Could also vote Mirhawk btw, before he says I'm not pushing him enough

[tictac]

I've been thinking that maybe scum would likely be in the people who agreed with Ranger's reads when she entered the game, as she pretty much destroyed Skybirds wagon.

This includes Cakez (conveniently for me) but I can't really remember who else.

Podo.

I find myself thinking that Skybird really did use her kingmaker shot on Tammy. No way to prove it now of course, but otherwise she probably would have said she still had it.

Agreed.

[tictac]

and honestly, I don't think I was. I think that was a shit case on mislynch bait who happened to be scum

I do agree with this.