A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[itlepip]

Yo

[itlepip]

VOTE: tic 7 pages in, this might be a hammer idc, tic is scum

[itlepip]

I think cerb's last post was him being scared of my read on him so he is already discrediting it.

[itlepip]

Marquis is town btw. Cerb the issue is that I still am about 100 posts fron your entrance

[itlepip]

Beeboy should have been obvtown

[itlepip]

Cerb you being scummier this game would make my life so much easier.

[itlepip]

^^^ both of these are true.

[itlepip]

(sorry ninjaed I meant 2620)

[itlepip]

Cerberus is probably town guys, I tried.

[itlepip]

Sky I have a personal goal to get Cerberus lynched at some point, so whenever I read his ISO its with the intent to scumread him, but so far is usually has failed and cerberus becomes town. It is really frustrating.

[itlepip]

Read Cerberus's posts for more context.

[itlepip]

Amiham: Town
Axel: Decent content but could be scum by GI
Cerb: kinda town :(
Dram: prolly town
Dave: prolly town
FS: reads are so backwards sometimes that I can’t ever townread this, not obv scum though. Liked early readlist but fakeable. Just frustrating slot. BTW if you are an invest and didn't look at FS for shame.
Mirhawk: don’t like his push on Ranger.
Pistach: IC
Podo: don’t like 834 readlist.
Sakura: no idea how to read, will sort with flips.
Cakez: town 9/10, should not be the lynch at all
Snarky, the fact that this slot is still alive confirms no vig, needs to die.
TPP: too lazy to try to read, sorry
TWL: Town
Tic: Scum but is getting a little townier.
Ogre: town, not sure what that invest thing was
Skybird: wouldn’t stop a lynch, null.

[itlepip]

Even if you think ogre is confirmed scum here which he never is you let him live for a while to see what results he gives. I suggest that Ogre full claim tomorrow.

Pedit: cool, its nice that they were hated though.

[itlepip]

Hi podo 'not the vigi' boq, thanks for dropping by. Also Axel when you started your long post, were you intending to support or not support cake?

[itlepip]

yo plotty was 2660 towny or scummy? Cause I'm pretty sure it is super alignment indicative I just keep on flipping on which way.

[itlepip]

I'm not voting based off of NKA (night kill assessment, right?). If you're going to accuse me of something, it's more sheeping than anything else.

I don't actually find NKA scummy. I asked about that because didn't follow your logic.
Sheeping is indeed what I find scummy about you.
- Sheeping Cakez & asking him to make a case looks like you are avoiding voicing opinions of your own.
- Deadtown sheep would make sense from town-you,

but I don't actually see evidence if it affecting your reads

.

You were a soft town read for me before yesterday's lynch. Then Ranger flipped, you were a high scum read, and I consider you the most likely scum of her top three. Me voting for you

is

evidence of her flip affecting my read.

I wanted Cakez to case you because 1) I'm a bit lazy, and 2) I don't

know

that Cakez is town, and I wanted to see him make a solid case. If he couldn't do it (which he did), then it gives me more reason to suspect him. It was a chance to get a better read on Cakez, so I took it.

None of this post works for me at all even though I technically agree with the reads. Flips, except in very specific circumstances, shouldn't change reads that much. And scum make good cases all the time.

[itlepip]

Before they can start distancing, if either Mirhawk or tic ever flip scum auto lynch the other one.

Mirhawk ftr I'm pretty sure that cake is town here. I know he is scummy but I dare you to find a game where cakez isn't scummy as either alignments. He has moments in this game that show some real town mentality that I don't think is fakable from his slot.

<3 ogre, can you go over what is genuine about tic and why TWL is scummy?

Also Ogre never claim right now, there is no point. We know that you don't have any useful information.

[itlepip]

You are townreading what too many people though. We have 5 scum prolly, and you have at most 2 scum reads.

[itlepip]

3 seems insanely townsided, I would say at least 4. Also if we have an SK they are trying to be a vig so idc.

[itlepip]

Sk is shooting within easy ML targets, so either they are actually a vig or are planning to claim vig and are basically just a vig for now. My money is that its actually just a vig.

[itlepip]

setup specing how many mafia there are is pretty important.

[itlepip]

I'm not an SK because I don't put any effort into being an SK cause of how bad I think that role is.

Also why would I ever point out that the townsiding person might be an SK if I'm that person?

[itlepip]

I'm trying not to but people keep on coming in the thread and softing shit and its bad.

[itlepip]

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BALANCE OF NONTOWN AND VIGS DON'T AREN'T NONTOWN.

[itlepip]

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

[itlepip]

VOTE: Podo Dram is actually just town this game, sry mate.

[itlepip]

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

[itlepip]

You shoot people who are scum, not people you can't read.

[itlepip]

dramonic vote for PP w/ me please

Dram no vote with me.

If either of you can provide me with a good reason to ignore obvscum Axel, then sure?

podo is probably also scum.

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

8 terrible votes on the wall
8 terrible votes~

want me to drive the wagon off them and onto you?

~M

A shitty vote up there or a shitty vote on me, what does it matter?

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

More than the other three by a large margin.

:P

You'll notice that two of my three scumreads are on my wagon.
HOW CONVENIENT!~

EDIT: I don't think cakez likes me.
EDITx2: I play like this when scum is running around being obv. Why the fuck would I put an effort in the game with three scums screamin around and being ignored?

All of these posts are super towny. His reads are relatively solid, he had issues with beeboy and cakez's posts, two people who are super easy MLs, and doesn't even include either of them is his scum pile. He's not in my townbloc yet but he's isn't that far from getting in there. He never should be a vig shot and super never should be lynched today. I'll protect Dram with my life if I have to.

[itlepip]

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

:neutral:

*cricket*

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

itlepip, could you explain how Axel has gone from having good posts and you asking dramonic for a case, to being completely ignored by dramonic who refuses to make that case, to considering dramonic obvtown and scumreading Axel?

Read my readlist, I think Axel could easily be scum here but since he has some good post I don't want to kill him yet unless he is more scummy than I realized, hence why I wanted the case before I voted.

[itlepip]

These are the posts you're using to read dramonic as town. They all have something in common. Let's take a look.

Spoiler:

dramonic vote for PP w/ me please

Dram no vote with me.

If either of you can provide me with a good reason to ignore obvscum Axel, then sure?

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel scum without providing any reason.

Guess what, just because someone doesn't provide reasoning doesn't automatically make something NAI. Looking at what the read is and the timing of it can also give you a read. I understand if you can't read it, but when someone comes along in a generally townread slot and says, yo, this easily could be town, I'm not sure why town would doubtcast that.

Spoiler:

podo is probably also scum.

The only thing this accomplishes is calling me scum without providing any reason.

Same thing but worse because its you.

Spoiler:

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason.

And it lets me get an inkling of a read on him.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

8 terrible votes on the wall
8 terrible votes~

want me to drive the wagon off them and onto you?

~M

A shitty vote up there or a shitty vote on me, what does it matter?

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

More than the other three by a large margin.

Almost the only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason. There is another nugget, but I'll go ahead and pull it out to look at at the end of this wall.

Spoiler:

:P

You'll notice that two of my three scumreads are on my wagon.
HOW CONVENIENT!~

EDIT: I don't think cakez likes me.
EDITx2: I play like this when scum is running around being obv. Why the fuck would I put an effort in the game with three scums screamin around and being ignored?

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason.

All of these posts are super towny. His reads are relatively solid, he had issues with beeboy and cakez's posts, two people who are super easy MLs, and doesn't even include either of them is his scum pile. He's not in my townbloc yet but he's isn't that far from getting in there. He never should be a vig shot and super never should be lynched today. I'll protect Dram with my life if I have to.

Scum does NOT want to kill mislynches now. They want to save them for the end of the game. That's why they are a town liability, because at MYLO, the scum team WANTS an easy mislynch to remain alive. So the argument that your slot and Cakez's are easy mislynches, and scum!dram wouldn't keep you around in that case is completely empty. I'd also like to remind you that scum!dram WOULD pull out issues with two easy mislynches, without actually pushing them, so at the end of the game, when you are still alive, he can argue that he saw the scummy play early, and more easily argue in favor of your mislynch.

Okay, that's just not how the game works. Depending on the size of the game, scum need to achieve a certain amount of mislynches to win, with certain roles such as vig and medic affecting that number. What needs to happen for town is to get a few extra scum flips early so that if we do end up in lylo its at worst a 5p and not the awful 7p which 999/1000 times scum just win. Even if you think Dram is 100% unreadable here, unless you have nobody in the game who you think has greater than a rounabouts 4/20 something chance of being scum Dram shouldn't be killed right now. All you are doing right now is again 16/20 times just lowering the necessary mislynch counter by 1 while providing town with nothing to go off of. You are either super lazy town that doesn't want to try to solve the game or just scum.

His reads aren't solid. I know I'm town, I don't scumread Axel right now, and I'm no longer convinced about tictac. I can see either of them flipping scum at some point, but their alignment is not obvious, and picking the three players he did as early as he did and not wavering is incredibly scummy. It's without logic, and it's proven without logic, BECAUSE HE REFUSES TO PROVIDE LOGIC DESPITE BEING ASKED TO ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, INCLUDING

FROM YOU

.

His reads are solid in that I can verify that they are coming from a town standpoint and this feels like townplay to me. I think that you are fairly likely to be scum here, but even if you are town here the thought process from Dram is still towny. Town never have 100% reads, you can't try to read people based on the accuracy of their reads, but in whether or not the reads came from town or scum.

The only thing you quoted from him that isn't just throwing shit at his three supposed scumreads is this:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

Not only is this eight word post from dramonic useless, off base, and not used to support any meaningful dialog, but it's against YOUR SLOT, which theoretically you should KNOW is town. How could you possibly use this as evidence to read dramonic as town, enough to almost consider him obvtown? Literally everything you quoted is something that I see as indicative of scum, and you're reading it as town. Am I the only person that has a problem with this? Am I just a bad player, or is itlepip just wrong here?

I explained that one. Basically that is a spot where scum would probably have an agenda is prodding Beeboy and I super don't see any signs of an agenda.

[itlepip]

Oh yeah, for other people mainly.

The main reason that Podo's push is super scummy, regardless of whatever Dram is, is that he is super invested really early in the day in pushing a policy lynch on a lurker. The way town generally lynch lurkers is if there isn't a great deadline wagon people agree on someone with zero content and just kill them, you don't do that in the middle of the day as your top wagon. There isn't the amount of gamesolving that I would want from Podo.

[itlepip]

Why are you doubtcasting my townread then?

[itlepip]

I think multiple people in this game have a greater than 20% chance of scum. I think dramonic's the highest chance, and even if he's not, he's close to the top. We should lynch scum here to win, and dramonic gives us a great chance of flipping scum, but on the low odds that he isn't, we can at least take solace in the fact that we removed an easy mislynch early. If dramonic has a 90% chance to flip scum, and Cakez (for example) has a 95% chance to flip scum, I lynch dramonic because his mislynch isn't as catastrophic. Note, those are made up numbers. I'm just trying to make a point.

Explain how Dram has such a high chance of being scum given that he is unreadable?

[itlepip]

damn it

VOTE: Axel

[itlepip]

Amiham: Town
Axel: Decent content but could be scum by GI
Cerb: kinda town :(
Dram: prolly town
Dave: prolly town
FS: reads are so backwards sometimes that I can’t ever townread this, not obv scum though. Liked early readlist but fakeable. Just frustrating slot. BTW if you are an invest and didn't look at FS for shame.
Mirhawk: don’t like his push on Ranger.
Pistach: IC
Podo: don’t like 834 readlist.
Sakura: no idea how to read, will sort with flips.
Cakez: town 9/10, should not be the lynch at all
Snarky, the fact that this slot is still alive confirms no vig, needs to die.
TPP: too lazy to try to read, sorry
TWL: Town
Tic: Scum but is getting a little townier.
Ogre: town, not sure what that invest thing was
Skybird: wouldn’t stop a lynch, null.

Read please.

[itlepip]

GreyIce

[itlepip]

good luck, you can't use public tells.

[itlepip]

VOTE: Skybird

GI tell is a tell that GI used against me one game and then taught me and now I use it. Basically I think Axel is approaching the game in a kinda scummy way/mindset.

[itlepip]

NOT HOW THAT WORKS M8.

you have to realize that town make shit posts all the fricken time. Beeboy made a shit post and got called for it. I think that Dram had every excuse to pressure beeboy and make a scene and get that glorious towncred. However he didn't which is towny. A low content scum doesn't waste posts just to get reads.

[itlepip]

I have a gut townlean on Dram that I am explaining. Look I'm trying to solve/win the game, and the way I like doing that is by creating a large town circle.

Cakez you need to understand the difference between a push and a tunnel. You tunnel people who you are certain are scum, and you push people to get a better read on them.

[itlepip]

No, I don't have any super strong scumreads so I'm not tunneling anyone.

[itlepip]

the way I like doing that is by creating a large town circle.

You have done nothing to solidify your town circle.

Not true but w/e.

[itlepip]

Rob cake didn't selfvote.

[itlepip]

24- Kinda awkward.
128- good start but questions at end are bad.
Lot of filler questions.
697- Dram read is weird. Beeboy read could be town actually though.
711- Super bad and scummy, association based on a 1 post defense is kinda insane
829- solid
1196- awkward again, if either flip scum the other is going to be under scrutiny

Podo, Ranger and Ogre posts are pretty towny.
Cakez revote is weird.
Semantics defense is shit but I actually kind of like Sky on reread.

Sorry guys.

VOTE: Mirhawk

Pretty sure this one is actually scum though.

[itlepip]

I feel like this is the coasting scum slot. I really should have been pushing this earlier but given where the game is at right now I can't ever see Mirhawk being town right now unless I am super wrong this game.

[itlepip]

The reason I think that Axel could easily be scum here is that all of his posts don't feel like genuine analysis but feel like he is trying to achieve a specific goal with each post. He makes sure that he has evidence for all of his claims based on some sort of theory, but its not particularly focused on game solving.

VOTE: Podo Dram is actually just town this game, sry mate.

The hell? Since when? The only thing I've heard people arguing is that Dram is "unreadable" or that he always plays like this whether he's Town or scum so what would be scummy behavior from someone else is not alignment indicative

from him

. And even if I was going to accept that - because everyone is saying it therefore it must be so - where are you getting that this is "Town" Dram? What could he have possibly done for you to get a "Town" read?

For example take this. The way that multiquoting works is that Axel knows that I explain this later. Yet because his purpose of this post is 'push pip' he leaves it in cause it looks better even though there is no way this is an actual content since I explain this later.

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

This has got to be the most god-awful thing suggested in this game to this point thus far. And I'm not even a huge fan of TicTac. Seriously, what the Hell?

Yes, because shooting between people that I think are scum is so much worse than shooting someone I think is town...

dramonic vote for PP w/ me please

Dram no vote with me.

If either of you can provide me with a good reason to ignore obvscum Axel, then sure?

podo is probably also scum.

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

8 terrible votes on the wall
8 terrible votes~

want me to drive the wagon off them and onto you?

~M

A shitty vote up there or a shitty vote on me, what does it matter?

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

More than the other three by a large margin.

:P

You'll notice that two of my three scumreads are on my wagon.
HOW CONVENIENT!~

EDIT: I don't think cakez likes me.
EDITx2: I play like this when scum is running around being obv. Why the fuck would I put an effort in the game with three scums screamin around and being ignored?

All of these posts are super towny. His reads are relatively solid, he had issues with beeboy and cakez's posts, two people who are super easy MLs, and doesn't even include either of them is his scum pile. He's not in my townbloc yet but he's isn't that far from getting in there. He never should be a vig shot and super never should be lynched today. I'll protect Dram with my life if I have to.

Zero of those posts are towny. The fact that you call his reads "solid" is laughable. They've been

consistent

, but what's solid about that? He's listed the same three people as being scum forever, never argued any of them, and said literally nothing else.

This is what kills me. This kind of play would be the easiest thing ever for scum to pull. Especially if he's known for doing nothing. If all Dram has to do to be considered "town" is pick someone to vote and then proceed to do nothing but call them scum for the rest of the game, while pointedly and repeatedly ignoring all requests for more explanation, then why the hell would he ever do anything differently?

It is but you have to realize that Dram knows that this isn't a style that can get him to endgame 99% of the time. When you are below a certain post marker your posts don't really matter and the fact that he was still trying to gamesolve instead of jumping on easy targets. Also the fact that I agree with most of his reads and everyone that I'm scumreading is attacking me for townreading him makes me feel pretty good about that slot.

I think podo already argued a lot of this. But, Jesus, it's driving me nuts.

Am I the only person that has a problem with this? Am I just a bad player, or is itlepip just wrong here?

You are not wrong.

Guess what, just because someone doesn't provide reasoning doesn't automatically make something NAI. Looking at what the read is and the timing of it can also give you a read. I understand if you can't read it, but when someone comes along in a generally townread slot and says, yo, this easily could be town, I'm not sure why town would doubtcast that

What is "NAI?"

Also, I don't understand the rest of this point. Who is the person coming along in a "generally townread" slot and what are they saying? How is this improving your opinion of Dramonic?

I was talking about my read on Podo not the Dram read.

Okay, that's just not how the game works. Depending on the size of the game, scum need to achieve a certain amount of mislynches to win, with certain roles such as vig and medic affecting that number. What needs to happen for town is to get a few extra scum flips early so that if we do end up in lylo its at worst a 5p and not the awful 7p which 999/1000 times scum just win. Even if you think Dram is 100% unreadable here, unless you have nobody in the game who you think has greater than a rounabouts 4/20 something chance of being scum Dram shouldn't be killed right now. All you are doing right now is again 16/20 times just lowering the necessary mislynch counter by 1 while providing town with nothing to go off of. You are either super lazy town that doesn't want to try to solve the game or just scum

You appear to be switching up your arguments again. This is back to "Dram is unreadable, and lynching him is basically a coin-flip, therefore, any lynch where you at least have some feeling that the person is actively scum is better." That's very different from "I think Dram is Town." Also, I completely reject the idea that Dram is just a coin flip. I

actively

think his odds of being scum are higher than most other players in this game.

Nope! 2 reasons. A). This is what you pulled in your first post which is 'even if I take what you guys are saying and his is 100% unreadable your play is still wrong' B. Yeah yell at me for calling him town but don't explain this, I get it.

His reads are solid in that I can verify that they are coming from a town standpoint and this feels like townplay to me. I think that you are fairly likely to be scum here, but even if you are town here the thought process from Dram is still towny.

Town never have 100% reads,

you can't try to read people based on the accuracy of their reads, but in whether or not the reads came from town or scum.

I'm bolding your own point. What the Hell? All Dram has done is adamantly vote for the same person (me) the entire game, while declaring the same group of three people scum for the entirely of the game, with 0 wavering. You say, "Town never have 100% reads" and yet, you are declaring Dram Town?

Again this is 'Axel needs to make sure that Dram is used for one of the MLs at some point and attack Pip" and he tries to base it on some kind of theory but this makes no sense. You don't read my post and come out with that analysis, this is analysis that came from a preconceived notion of what this post was going to be. Guess what, town tunnel, not only do they tunnel, but they tunnel all the time and it can be on town if somehow you are that. Saying that because a read is wrong they have to be mafia is super lazy and proba ly just mafia. Dram isn't in my towncircle, but I think we really really need a scumflip soon to be able to win this game and Dram isn't someone I think is particularly likely to do that.

damn it

VOTE: Axel

I don't even....

You should try it at some point, it's fun.

VOTE: Skybird

GI tell is a tell that GI used against me one game and then taught me and now I use it. Basically I think Axel is approaching the game in a kinda scummy way/mindset.

You are like the umpteenth person to express vague feelings of dislike about my play without pointing to anything specific that I can explain/rebut. It's actually getting a bit frustrating. And, again, I feel like it's coming from lack of familiarly and me basically being the person on the outside of the cool kids club.

I would love for you to explain this "tell" so I can show you where you're wrong. I don't know what else I can do.

The tell is that you are coming into your posts with the intention of writing what you just wrote. Instead of adapting it to what you read.

I was really reading Beeboy as Town, but now I'm really not so sure anymore.

I'll be here later, but I'm liking a lot of everyone on the last page so

...

I'll be here later, but I'm liking a lot of everyone on the last page so

That's... a really useless statement.
Zero opinions, just hearts for everyone, really?

I almost agree with Dramonic, unbelievable. Except that, of course, he's being a complete and total hypocrit here.

[itlepip]

Why is Mir a townread.

[itlepip]

What super good pushes?

[itlepip]

It was a reference to my best scum game

<3 FS

[itlepip]

Mirhawk, Dav read ASAP.

[itlepip]

no, I need Mirhawk to give his current read on Dav.

but good job anyways.

[itlepip]

fuck me I just realized that FS and mir are confirmed the same alignment. Mir still needs to answer the question but yeah...

[itlepip]

yeah just realized that the fruit vendor isn't automatically weak.

[itlepip]

Vote: Davesaz

Why haven't you voted Axel yet?

If you don't intend to vote him why do you keep making sidelong comments on his wagon?

I don't really think "this is what I do" is a very good justification.

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

There's a lot to respond to here so I'm likely going to make several posts.

First off I promised to point out why I think dav's scum.

First off read his iso. Everything until he places his first vote is sidelong comments on other wagons. Half of that is throwing shade with no votes cast.

His first vote (which is not till page nine) is for what precisely? Immediately after placing it he goes back to asking pointless questions. He makes literally zero effort to convince a single person that I'm scum.

I tried to question him on the vote but then he disappeared until after that miller business at which point he was no longer interested in discussing his earlier case.

He's been sitting on me since post 213, but since then has only mentioned me once.
He didn't even call me scum in that post, rather saying I could be town or scum. :neutral:

What's he doing now? Still making sidelong comments without seemingly looking for scum at all.

He's being townread for what precisely?

I'm going to jump on the Mirhawk wagon.

I was reluctant because I thought some of his earliest posts had good content and I had mixed feelings about his reaction to Ami's gambit. I don't like his recent posts, though:

First off I promised to point out why I think dav's scum.

First off read his iso. Everything until he places his first vote is sidelong comments on other wagons. Half of that is throwing shade with no votes cast.

This is a reach, it also describes the playstyle of Mirhawk himself--he's been making a lot of comments on other wagons.

852 reads like he's trying to get credit for being skeptical/contrarian without backing it up at all.

re 858 why is it horseshit? The post he's responding to is spot-on. And instead of defending himself, he dismisses it.

A lot of his reactions to statements he disagrees with are just "no." Drive by sniping is right.

Ami's only in the pool because I'm paranoid about the miller gambit. I actually find her play kind of town.

?????

You literally ISO'ed me and picked at a bunch of random shit nobody had mentioned yet. Despite the effort into making the post it feels super lazy as well. I don't think you looked very closely at the posts I was responding to, which if you had a problem with my responses you should have.

Me and Dav's playstyles are pretty different seeing as how I've been calling half the town scum, whereas Dav still hasn't gotten around to calling me scum despite voting me all game. Lots of people have commented on multiple wagons, does that mean we all have the same playstyle? I feel like you only brought this up to pad your case.

How could I get town credit for 852? In order to get credit for being skeptical of someones opinion I would need the subject of that opinion to die and flip. If you'd actually bothered reading the post I was complaining about you would have known that piper was talking about me. Was my plan to get town credit after I was dead or something?

I also would have assumed you would notice that TWL's post that 858 is talking about my early game. I mean are actually agreeing that my early interactions with Dav were a drive by? Or that despite the fact that it was a drive by they still managed to be really good questions? Or that despite the fact that they were really good questions, they weren't connected to the game? You tried to twist this into being about my later posts, and all the power to you on that. But my problem was the early game bit.

I also note that despite saying you're jumping on my wagon, you.... didn't?

In separate news, I'm not seeing anything town from Dramonic. Is this normal for him?

Repeating question since I didn't see much response to it. I think Dramonic is scum flying under the radar, but I don't know if this is normal for him.
Scum reads with no apparent reasons, avoiding big wagons, not addressing the topics of the day -> classic active lurking scum mode, IMO.
VOTE: Dramonic

Please discuss.

Drams fine.

All the things you're accusing him of are things town do too.

It definitely depends on how they presented their argument for not lynching. In Mirhawk's case, there's a legitimate fear that it comes from knowledge town doesn't have. In that case, definitely not giving towncred. There's not a binary answer to this.

OMFG this is so stupid.

I don't care if you think I'm scum because my vote switch sounded fake or contrived.
But every person who thinks there was some kind of information scum would have that town wouldn't in this situation is talking out of their ass.

Unvote

This is obviously not happening.

I'm not inclined to believe that replacing out is alignment indicative, though ironically enough in the last three games I've played there have been six scum replace outs.

The accusation that she's voting a certain way specifically to ensure the skybird wagon doesn't have more votes than the FS wagon is dumb. Neither wagon has enough votes for them to be at a tipping point, and voting in that fashion isn't alignment indicative. I'd be more inclined to think that if she has indicated a greater desire to lynch you than FS(which I dont' think she has) but she is voting FS, it's to see how people deal with the situation with the various wagons.

She's stated that she will switch to my wagon if it's bigger, and it is. In fact if she switched from seniors wagon to mine it would be three votes higher than seniors, which is a significant amount.
However if she does switch that would make Skybird's wagon bigger than seniors, which is a problem for her since she's suggesting that the only two viable wagons are Seniors and Mine.
Don't get me wrong I have an ulterior motive here too. I don't want to be lynched, and I don't think Seniors is scum, so I'm against discluding Skybirds wagon from contention.

For example, before you made that accusation, i was considering voting skybird SOLELY to see who moved where in response to skybirds wagon taking the lead...but that particular ploy has lost it's value given that you just made scum more wary of individuals watching wagon movements in this situation for that exact reason.

Sorry?

Unvote
Vote: Sircakez

I was thinking this couldn't happen, but now I'm thinking maybe I was wrong.

I just got back from the hockey game. 5-0, it was brutal.

@Podo
Cakes is scum because he isn't looking for scum, rather he's coasting and has been doing so for most of the game.

In the last game I played with him (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65594) he actively scumhunted constantly, in this one he vote parked on me over a thousand posts ago and hasn't done much of anything since.

How much time does he spend pushing the scumread he's had all game? Almost none. He doesn't analyze any of my posts and the extent of him pushing my wagon consists of him occasionally reminding people that he thinks I'm scum.

Also his reaction to Rangers readslist was outrageously fake.

That's why I'm voting for him at least. Not really sure as to the reasons for the other ones.

SirCakez is definitely town.

What? Hell no.

He parked on the easiest wagon that required the least justification and never left.

Seriously, go read his ISO. Try to find justification for his vote. When I pressed him on it he offered up some gibberish reasons, then stopped responding to me.

There's lots going on in town. There's no way that he hasn't found anything stronger than that in all this time. It's not like he isn't here, he's had a hundred posts since then.

Mirhawk being a hard Ranger pusher but being so hesitant to join that wagon also gives me pause.

I'm scum so me not voting for her makes her town? Am I reading this right?

Also didn't you just accuse me of moving my vote around too easily?

I thought you were townreading him because scum wig vendors are very rare.

[itlepip]

let my iso slip there

Why did you stop having Dav being obvScum?

Pedit: holy shit yes manipulation is a scum tell, just because some town do it doesn't make it NAI, come on now.

[itlepip]

(ftr the reason I think mirhawk is scum here is 100% independent of that whole ordeal)

[itlepip]

@Cerb the jist of it is that his later day pushes by deadline doesn't feel like town especially given that he just abandons his Dav push. His early day is all just 'dav is scum dav is scum dav is scum' he votes pistach, and then goes back to dav after the whole Amiham slip thing. Then deadline hits and in short succession he calls ranger, Cakez, Skybird, all scum based on which one is the most popular at the time and never even mentions Dav again in any sort of negative light for the rest of the game. I don't understand why a town player would ever think that he has a clear caught scum, and then give it up not only due to deadline panic, but then the next day he completely forgets that this player was ever considered scummy by him. It is something I have done as scum by accident, but I can't ever imagine as town just giving up on a scum push that I was death tunneling because meh. Like he never actually says that Cakez is worse than dav or anything like that, he just seems to forget that Dav is even in the game after his last case against him.

Full disclosure I was hoping for worse answer from him regarding dav but the answers he gave don't invalidate my case at all imo. Its a bit complicated and I'm on a phone so the full thing will appear later tonight.

[itlepip]

<3 yeah I'm voting him.

[itlepip]

For me the warm fuzzies that Sky got are in 829 are enough for me to like killing Mir more.

[itlepip]

ftr I have a bad memory and do this a lot. Like I've had full blown scum reads just leave my brain overnight and I can't figure out why I scum read them.

I highly advise taking notes, it has helped both my scum and town games a lot.

Though to address this point. If you are hard pushing a wagon, realize that you have no idea why you think that person is scummy anymore and then you never mention that you've 180ed on that read and just ignore that person for the rest of the game then that's just one of the times where town inexplicitely play as scummy as possible just to fuck with people. Changing your reads or forgetting reads are fine, people do that all the time, but you need to be transparent about it.

[itlepip]

Just take my word for it dude.

[itlepip]

Why are you presuming that Mir is town here?

[itlepip]

Holy fuck Dwlee you haven't read the fucking game and you are lecturing me on whether what Mirhawk was opportunistic. Read at least his iso and come back and tell me that you think he actually believes any of his deadline pushes. Especially given the context of his play today.

Also FS I will bully whoever to push this lynch through right now. Dwlee hasn't read the game so its not like his opinion matters at all, but his vote does.

The cases of Sky and TPP are weak af. Either might be scum but if they flip scum its cause town got lucky and RNGed a scum flip.

Explain why Mir actually town instead of trying to discredit these attacks and then saying 'lol I'm buddying Sky'

[itlepip]

Your failing at actually finding something substantive to push that slot is pretty telling. Null-town for me right now.

Also given that Mirhawk pulled the BS fruitvendors mean that FS is confirmed BS and FS is pulling this BS with Mir right now if nothing else make sure one of them flips soon this game cause that could just solve the game. Mir is actually just scum though, FS is incredibly wrong with their reads. Their lynch pool coming into today is literally all town with the possible exception of TPP but TPP is probably town as well. Either FS is playing their worst game ever with both heads or they are just scum this game.

Pedit: yeah kinda what cerb said though I think that cerb is just town this game and I'm pretty sure TPP if town could easily pick up on that.

[itlepip]

The skybird one I just don't think outweighs the view posts where I got a gut towny vibe from him. Like I feel that half the player base has been coasting which is 100% of the case on skybird. Town skybird isn't a super town machine.

TPP is just burden of proficiency which given that we haven't seen any flips yet is a crock of BS. The case against them is just that they are good players and since the game isn't just magically over yet we lynch them because that makes so much sense.

I don't think you are town here so i'm not too keen on keeping up this conversation unless someone towny joins so I can yell at them to vote mir.

[itlepip]

Why no Mir vote?

[itlepip]

Ugh we are confirmed town to each other but the only person I'd like to kill in your top 3 lynch pool today is Axel.

[itlepip]

Basically in all games Cakez gets lynched and then occasionally he is actually scum, but that really didn't happen this game.

[itlepip]

BTW imo the colors are

Skybird [7/9]:

Marquis

,

podoboq,

The Pied Piper

, Malakittens,

Mirhawk

,

Axelrod

,

pistachi0n

<-- look how bad this wagon looks.

Also True Ogre is probably town but that vote never counts in terms of wagon quality.

[itlepip]

BTW quick thoughts on Sky iso before I forget. Cake looks a little better, TPP a little worse, Cerb is more confirmed, Marquis looks a little worse but still in my town circle, and tictac + mir look worse.

[itlepip]

VOTE: Mirhawk

[itlepip]

Shit checks but w/e

[itlepip]

Nobody got NKed dude!

Also kinda like recent FS stuff, out of my lynch pool today.

[itlepip]

Don't want to give an opinion on tictac right now.

[itlepip]

Marq shouldn't be a leap of faith. Marq is real, his checks are valid unless he rescinds them but even if he does whatever his new checks are are true.


BTW I super super hate that piper wasn't checked last night. I almost want to lynch that slot just for the information b/c its so juicy.

Also True no pressure to claim but if you have some useful results you did mention it yesterday. Especially since there is a cop outed claiming now should be fine.

[itlepip]

Well guess they did

[itlepip]

is it do?

I'm kinda in the boat where I want TPP to be scum because then Mirhawk is super scum but nothing about their posts really do anything either way for me.

[itlepip]

Who did you think crumbed Cakez?

[itlepip]

Who did you think crumbed Cakez?

uhh this question may not be good to answer?

Okay, nice mafia basics here but you are wrong. First off the fact that we have 2 outed investigatives means that Scum for the rest of the game are going to be killing confirmed towns/PRs and with at least 1 confirmed protective (BTW if you didn't think Ogre was town before, yeah ogre is town). Also depending on who Cakez calls as softing we get a bunch of cool connections. Also scum can just go back and find the crumb if they really wanted to.

[itlepip]

Stating what the crumb should confirm one person's alignment in my eye.

[itlepip]

Dude I totally have a dram inno, I don't know what you are talking about.

[itlepip]

Btw in all seriousness if we can get 1 more town person town just has auto this game.
Current town circle of loverlyness

Cake
Marquis
Cerb
Dav
Mala
True
Pistach
Pip

with maybe Dram or Dwlee entering as the last slot.

[itlepip]

BTW I am going to soft the fact that my alignment won't ever be a problem for town this game.

4 or 5 if I count myself.

[itlepip]

Btw in all seriousness if we can get 1 more town person town just has auto this game.
Current town circle of loverlyness

Cake

Marquis

Cerb

Dav

Mala

True

Pistach

Pip

with maybe Dram or Dwlee entering as the last slot.

Yes it was sarcasm, otherwise Dram would be in my townbloc

[itlepip]

Purple are confTown, Blue is not confirmed but almost certainly is town and teal are reads.

[itlepip]

Oh and Ogre technically should be Blue, sorry about that

[itlepip]

TPP I don't think I am that role.

[itlepip]

I am not 3p

[itlepip]

My point was that before someone says the obvious "OMG DON"T PUT YOURSELF IN YOUR AUTO CIRCLE!!" is not relevant.

[itlepip]

Also Dram I'm pretty sure cerb is town. If Axel and Mir are both town I might go back but I super doubt it.

[itlepip]

TPP what was your intention with that soft?

[itlepip]

Does our being town make Mirhawk more or less likely to be town and why?

If you are scum than Mirhawk is just scum, the bussing yesterday if you are town makes it a little less confidant which kinda sucks.

[itlepip]

Uh Flubber I literally lead one in my last scum game.

[itlepip]

Dwlee just stahp.

Also TPP if you can build a world of 9 confirmed town with your results than think about outing your stuff.

[itlepip]

Yeah cause there totally is a scum role that just knows a shit ton of town PRs and hasn't shot any of them yet

[itlepip]

Alright Dwlee, we probably have 3 alive mafia which means that lylo is at 7 so I don't give a shit about anyone with whatever TPP is claiming until at least 11. There isn't any pressure to lynch him today and you going through so many fucking hoops to do this is stupid. Take a breath, reread the game and come back with a perspective that isn't just lynch TPP.

[itlepip]

Also for the record I would like to disagree with everything FS said. They were never being super townread in Midsummer's and had a decent chance of dying d1/d2 until after shenanigans happened. The other thing is that I have gotten strong townreads on hippy plently of times and never this game.

[itlepip]

VOTE: FS

[itlepip]

FS isn't game solving and will never be in any towncircle unless he gets greenchecked. He also is playing pretty scummy and poorly and is misrepresenting things and flip flopping a shit ton. There isn't any good reason why we shouldn't lynch him.

[itlepip]

Make a readlist then because from what I've seen you are reading everyone as either alignment depending so...

[itlepip]

Make it then. If I like it a lot I might move back to mir or axel.

[itlepip]

You not liking the gamestate doesn't mean that you actually have done any gamesolving.

[itlepip]

Yo TPP one question when you flip do we get all of the information or do you need to out it.

[itlepip]

I didn't think they were town when I hammered. They claimed town post-hammer, iirc?

[itlepip]

TPP is that a 100% claim?

[itlepip]

On tic?

[itlepip]

TPP just summarize everything you have softed.

Dwlee shut up you are not helping. Prattling on about TPP is just wasting thread space.

[itlepip]

cool, if I had an inno on you, would that mean that Tic is an IC to me or just most likely town.

[itlepip]

Wow that fucking sucks. Seriously wtffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff


Did Dwlee pushing you really scare you that much. Wioja;jas[do kjsd;vksja;vjasdh;sfhds;fjkhapsdfkjsadfjkas;dlfkja[goijgpjnoiwjfas;dfjn;aslkefjowiejfas;dfka[soin[adfvn[vna[dfiopdfivapiv[eofq[oewi[woeirqpiowerqowieruqeiortweiruotdfghskdfgmcxvn,mnxcvkjdfgadhg[iowerqjfpjibnpgifjsadjkfjaksdfo[iqwerioqweuwerutewiurtojkfalsjkdfhsajkldhfpqiweroqirhtpkjdasidfhpasjghpqutq[erituhdfjdjjahksdjklhfdsjklhasdfjkhldfsahjklasjhklfsadjhklfdsajhkfsdjhklafjhadfsjkhasfjhkadfsjhklsdjflhkafsdjklhasdf


Like seriously, just say that Flubber is a 1 shot neighborizer, and bullshit like that and don't reveal the fucking rest. UGH. And now we need to save cakez b/c he was already in the auto circle adsf;akldfj;ah;aihs;fajs;fkwiofhas;dfjakdsfasdfalsjdhfa;sgashf;kfhjas;ifuhase;fhjsd;fk

[itlepip]

I thought they were competent enough players to not blindly dumb information because Dwlee of all people was calling them scum. This makes my life so much more difficult than it has to be. 1 + though, Flubber should probably out his invest result.

Podo you are 100% alone in that. Please never out who the vig is thankyouverymuchthen.

[itlepip]

Your play this game regardless of your age has been fairly useless. I'm not too much older than you but seriously you've managed to out town PRs and waste 3-4 days. If you are town you were really close to getting in the towncircle and if you were scum you might have had a chance of winning the game for your team but yeah that's not going to happen.

Quick stuff cause my life gets super hectic soon. May have to go VLA.

Never should be lynched:
Cake
90% Cerb
Ogre
Marquis
dave
TWL
Pistach
(me)

Should never endgame
Axel
FS
Mirhawk
Podo imo. Like he has his town moments and then he has his moments, like his post before he agreed with me, that feel like scum just trying to fit in.
Probably Dwlee.

Also I think Dram has had decent moments when he showed up, it just isn't enough for me to really call him conftown like I want to. He has, in my opinion, a much more solid opinion of the gamestate that Dwlee.

[itlepip]

Because TPP's claim was cleary bs and I knew it. I made good points about why it was bs and no one listened.

There never was a claim and there weren't any holes in it. You were pushing for a fullclaim of someone you thought was scum for softing. That's just kinda lazy tbh. Like if you are town here then you just decided to shut your brain off and just only look at this one thing that happened in a 4000 post game. You didn't look at interactions with sky, or weird posts or anything like that. You just kinda pushed 1 tiny thing that if you were wrong about just outs a shitload of town PR for no gain.

The best way to do this honestly is to push TPP for stuff that doesn't involve outing a shit ton of PRs.

Like you have to learn that there are times when lynching obv scum isn't the best, and I don't think you even considered it. I still believe that Mirhawk has the highest chance of being scum, but I don't think that me trying to strongarm that lynch is super important nor am I worried about Mirhawk seriously pulling the wool over town's eyes.

[itlepip]

Yeah. The only things you said were that they claimed knowledge of PR's(which they did do), implied they were an investigative(which they didn't, as podo said), and they softed an innocent on someone(which they sorta did, but this lose a lot of meaning if you aren't assuming they claimed an investigative). You then put all that together in a blender, and realized none of it added up to a single role you could call them, and decided that meant part of what they were saying had to be untrue, therefore they are scum, without EVER considering that they could actually have just arrived at a number of conclusions through their analysis.

Don't think it really matters though, except I kinda do want to lynch you, but I don't think anybody else does. Like, does anybody else see dwlee as potentially scum here? I really feel like we need to look outside the established "probtown" group and the people that have been getting consistently pushed to the edge of being lynched.

pedit: pip, you really need to explain that read on me. I fucking suck man. And the only game you have with me was SF and UNIMUM(right? you were in unimum right?), where I was, well, a fucking marvel of posting. I was always there, I was on top of the entire game, and I had something to say about EVERYTHING.

Cerbikins you have posts that are just so cute and cuddly and towny that I can't help townreading you even though you haven't done much this game. <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

The actual answer, is that you echo exactly how I approach certain situations, my biggest issue, your lack of presence recently and in general, you made a point of expressing even though I haven't said anything about it.

[itlepip]

Yeah I agree with TO here, Cerb FS should probably die today.

[itlepip]

Yeah Flub wtf is my agenda

[itlepip]

I did a fair bit of chainsawing for TPP as well even though I don't have their slot as super town.

Also did everyone else miss the fact that the reason that FS is pushing Cerb out of their scumreads is that he is the scum not on their wagon b/c they were getting too much flack for OMGUSing. That isn't a towny reaction at all.

Also TPP isn't even close to outed. Stop it.

[itlepip]

VOTE: MIRHAWKYNESS

[itlepip]

I want everyone to read 465 and 697 and tell me why Axel is conveniently not in the readlist after Sky defended him.

Also Dwlee stop being just wrong.

[itlepip]

yeah I agree it does look bad when your partner flips and you aren't on the wagon but its generally good to keep your partners alive. Anything else you would like to add FS?

Doing what by the way?

People keep yelling at me for having some sort of hidden agenda but I've made everything 100% transparent, I'm building a towncircle first this game but on top of that FS, Axel and Mir are my scum reads.

[itlepip]

be sad.

I don't want him to die

You do know that you are currently voting him right?

Cerb how tf are you townreading this?

[itlepip]

Yes, I totally do.

Look at this from scum FS's perspective. A wagon is building on some random guy that isn't them but that they have been pretty staunch in defending the whole game. Their reaction is to vote them, claim no hard reason for voting them, and then in the next vote call the whole thing likely that Mirhawk is town but w/e. If we actually lynch mir and the mod decides that this game is bastard and he flips town, then we would auto-lynch FS for being this shittiest scum ever for voting and white knighting at the exact same time. The reason that FS isn't worried about their reason for voting Mir is b/c mir is scum.

[itlepip]

You know what, I honestly believe that there is a reasonable chance that maybe flubber isn't a neighborizer but is playing along just to fuck with us...

[itlepip]

/s

[itlepip]

nah, he's just an idiot.
Moving along, that's a pretty bad lynch list you've got TO. 4 town 1 scum?

He only has 3 people in hs lynch list...

[itlepip]

nah, he's just an idiot.
Moving along, that's a pretty bad lynch list you've got TO. 4 town 1 scum?

He only has 3 people in hs lynch list....

[itlepip]

Dwlee saying lynch tpp over and over again actually doesn't improve the chance tpp gets lynched but does lower the chance he gets NKed so good job!

[itlepip]

When did that happen?

[itlepip]

(before TPP caught my ogre lyncher soft)

[itlepip]

Oh yeah Mir where the fuck has your Cakez push been in the last few pages cause A). Cakez is obvTown B). You haven't done shit to push it.

[itlepip]

Also Cakez, it'd be super cool if you didn't shoot me if you are the vig.

You never say this to your top scumread ftr. Mir is just outed, we have a few days before deadline, can we get him to claim yet and do final readlist thing and questions soon.

Pedit: in case you didn't notice Skybird flipped scum.

[itlepip]

Actually I agree with you on Sky, but not reevaluating after your counterwagon d1 flipped town which you called just scum super shittily is pretty scummy.

(wow google agrees that shittily is a word)

[itlepip]

On that note people don't forget that FS was a couterwagon to town d1

[itlepip]

My play has been unimpressive but you think both of my top scum outside of yourself are probably scum?

[itlepip]

VOTE: Flubber

[itlepip]

VOTE: Mirhawk I couldn't do it.

[itlepip]

Namelt that Mirhawk is town.

[itlepip]

CAKEZ IZ TOWNZ

[itlepip]

Mir I would really suggest giving full flavor since its a jeb's chance that you are going to live here.

[itlepip]

I'm still all good for lynching Mirhawk or Axel but right now I have limited time to post. Sorry.

Agreed. Both slots I'm okay with lynching, though I have nothing to point to regarding why I feel the way I do about axel.

Maybe we could lynch one and ask the vig to shoot the other? :D

Second this motion.

[itlepip]

Mine isn't and I'm town.

[itlepip]

I am from Mary Poppins.

[itlepip]

Am I the only old musical? Turns out I'm scum by myself, coolio

pedit: lool saw that coming a fucking mile away,

[itlepip]

Claiming in lylo and like 5 days before lylo are not the same things at all whatsoever. If Marquis makes it to lylo yeah you always lynch him because with like 5 cop checks the game should be over. Actually the best play is to lynch the cop the day before lylo and then everything he says is confirmed the next day. No matter what Marquis is never on the table for the next 3 days at least and that increases every scum lynch.

Pedit: yay cerb!

[itlepip]

Hey EP

I know why you can only think of two scum reads :)

LOOL <3

[itlepip]

wtf like I don't mind axel at all obviously but literally all Axel has to do to live is claim anything cause we would have like 3 hours left and then a NL happens. Like just kill mir here.

[itlepip]

All that exchange did is make me slightly more confident if we moved to FS today but still Mirhawk is always going to be my top lynch.

[itlepip]

Why is mir town pipe?

[itlepip]

Why the fuck did this happen? Literally the only town case presented on Mir is dwlee 'he agrees with me on TPP' and TPP just like a shit gut thing.

VOTE: FS

[itlepip]

Yeah, gj vigi .

[itlepip]

VOTE: Mirhawk

What cerbikens said.

[itlepip]

@Cerb the jist of it is that his later day pushes by deadline doesn't feel like town especially given that he just abandons his Dav push. His early day is all just 'dav is scum dav is scum dav is scum' he votes pistach, and then goes back to dav after the whole Amiham slip thing. Then deadline hits and in short succession he calls ranger, Cakez, Skybird, all scum based on which one is the most popular at the time and never even mentions Dav again in any sort of negative light for the rest of the game. I don't understand why a town player would ever think that he has a clear caught scum, and then give it up not only due to deadline panic, but then the next day he completely forgets that this player was ever considered scummy by him. It is something I have done as scum by accident, but I can't ever imagine as town just giving up on a scum push that I was death tunneling because meh. Like he never actually says that Cakez is worse than dav or anything like that, he just seems to forget that Dav is even in the game after his last case against him.

Full disclosure I was hoping for worse answer from him regarding dav but the answers he gave don't invalidate
my case at all imo. Its a bit complicated and I'm on a phone so the full thing will appear later tonight.

This is what caused Cerb to scumread you and waaay before Marquis even replaced into the game.

[itlepip]

Geez. No, I am not seriously policy lynching TWL because Hydra. I have no actual opinion of them yet.

I am having a hard time believing that you could seriously believe that either.

+1

I'm also having trouble believing that all the people who are supporting Saks on this think its legit as well.

Why haven't you voted Axel yet?

If you don't intend to vote him why do you keep making sidelong comments on his wagon?

I don't really think "this is what I do" is a very good justification.

So, so far, I like Mirhawk, and I like Sir Cakes. I also really like TicTac's first post.

I am not a fan of Sakura, or Davesaz.

@Sakura: (per post #64) did you

really

think that I was advocating for a "policy" lynch of all Hydras? Really?

@Davesaz: please explain to me how you feel I "pulled back" on "the Hydra thing" (post #69). Do you think I am advocating for a policy lynch of all Hydras?

Wrong Lynch is fine

Unvote

. Pied Piper is also fine. Friendless Seniors hasn't done anything.

@Beeboy: when you say you know how Friendless Seniors would react to you, are you talking about one of the hydra heads in particular? Or is this a Hydra that you have played with before? I don't get your conviction given that Seniors hasn't done much of anything.

I think that "hasn't done much of anything" is a fine reason to scumread a person. Where's the scumhunting? Where's the poking around for reactions? Do they have any reads? Why aren't they engaging with anybody? He was here for about an hour and he did very little in that time, though he made several posts.

"Hasn't done much of anything"

is

a perfectly fine reason to vote someone. But what I was talking about was less the vote than the

conviction

with which it was made. I think Beeboy said he was something like 90% certain FS was scum. And that was simply way out of line for what FS had actually posted up to that point. Which was basically nothing. So, like, you can definitely vote someone for doing nothing in the very early game, and that's fine. But declaring them scum with 90% certainly over it is just wrong.

What I'm trying to assess is Beeboy's genuineness about it though, and right now he's coming off as pretty genuine, at least. So, that's a positive.

False dichotomy. You leave out the possibility that the behavior is neutral (or that I haven't formed an opinion on it yet) but the responses to my comments from him and others will help me sort people.

That's not how a false dichotomy works, as evidenced by the fact that you managed to answer my second question while pretending you didn't.

Both of the statements you made about Axel were accusatory in tone, they didn't sound neutral to me at least. Do you think Axel is town or scum?

@B
Dunno man, being self involved isn't really a scum tell.

You presented an either/or question which presented that there could not be any other answer, where the answer was none of the above. It doesn't get any more false dichotomy than that.

I made it very clear that my read is null. Your push however is not.
VOTE: Mirhawk

Ew. Bad vote.

First, you were totally casting aspersions on me without voting for me, which, is a thing you can do - not every suspicion is worth a vote - but when you get challenged for it don't pretend it wasn't what you were doing either. Also, you totally did NOT make it "clear" that your read was "null." What you said was (in response to the challenge) that Mirhawk was leaving out a 3rd possibility that the behavior was "neutral" or you hadn't formed an opinion on it yet (which is two different things), without actually saying that this was, in fact, your position. How was this "clear"?

Skimmed again, if i missed something directed at me please let me know,

Missed mine:

[@Sakura: (per post #64) did you really think that I was advocating for a "policy" lynch of all Hydras? Really?]

Your 68 was a direct response to people making comments (in particular Sakura's 64 which your 68 quoted) about your apparent interest in PLing hydras. You posted something, people reacted, you posted a retraction. By definition that is pulling back.

This doesn't even make sense. If you RVS someone, and another player

demands

(in very serious fashion) that you explain whether you were seriously voting or not, and you say "Uh, no." Have you "pulled back?"

Because that is exactly what happened.

My comment was, in part, a means of prodding you to find out if you would be defensive about it being called that. You later posted about hydras again, and I pointed out the apparent inconsistency between 68 (implying it's not serious) and the later post explaining your stance. I don't remember if you responded to that or not...

Do I think it was serious? Don't know, your own posting implies it is at least partially serious, but even that could just as easily be a joke or itself a reaction test. I don't think it's alignment indicative by itself, since it's hard to distinguish between scum testing the waters and town fishing for (scum) sheep.

What part of my posting suggests in any way that I have ever "seriously" advocated for policy lynching of Hydras? It is boggling my mind that anyone could genuinely come away with that impression.

The absolute most you might conclude (and that I would even cop to) is that I have a "policy" of randomly voting for Hydras during the RVS stages of a game when I have no one better to vote for, as a sort of silent protest against their existence.

MIr claim flavor.

[itlepip]

ugh not again.

[itlepip]

Still mir really needs to claim flavor.

[itlepip]

shhhhh I have APs right now you guys are lucky I don't talk to people not in the game.

[itlepip]

Pretty close to rescinding my townread on Dram.

[itlepip]

Nvm Dram is town.

[itlepip]

Aww is my case not useful?

Geez. No, I am not seriously policy lynching TWL because Hydra. I have no actual opinion of them yet.

I am having a hard time believing that you could seriously believe that either.

+1

I'm also having trouble believing that all the people who are supporting Saks on this think its legit as well.

Want to include all interactions for completeness.

Why haven't you voted Axel yet?

If you don't intend to vote him why do you keep making sidelong comments on his wagon?

I don't really think "this is what I do" is a very good justification.

.

So, so far, I like Mirhawk, and I like Sir Cakes. I also really like TicTac's first post.

-snip-

Likes Mir a lot right now. Never really explains this read but holds it the entire game. Which he really doesn’t do with Cake.

False dichotomy. You leave out the possibility that the behavior is neutral (or that I haven't formed an opinion on it yet) but the responses to my comments from him and others will help me sort people.

That's not how a false dichotomy works, as evidenced by the fact that you managed to answer my second question while pretending you didn't.

Both of the statements you made about Axel were accusatory in tone, they didn't sound neutral to me at least. Do you think Axel is town or scum?

@B
Dunno man, being self involved isn't really a scum tell.

You presented an either/or question which presented that there could not be any other answer, where the answer was none of the above. It doesn't get any more false dichotomy than that.

I made it very clear that my read is null. Your push however is not.
VOTE: Mirhawk

Ew. Bad vote.

First, you were totally casting aspersions on me without voting for me, which, is a thing you can do - not every suspicion is worth a vote - but when you get challenged for it don't pretend it wasn't what you were doing either. Also, you totally did NOT make it "clear" that your read was "null." What you said was (in response to the challenge) that Mirhawk was leaving out a 3rd possibility that the behavior was "neutral" or you hadn't formed an opinion on it yet (which is two different things), without actually saying that this was, in fact, your position. How was this "clear"?
-snipy-

Either Axel spent the entire game trying to build a false association with Mir and Mir as town just happened to ignore Axel or they are just scum together.

Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?

Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:

My strongest townread is Tammy. I'm feeling pretty confident she is town. Spiffah is also pretty town.

I'm leaning town on Dramonic. He's playing like he did in the last game I was in with him. I'm also leaning town on you.

I'm not sure about Beeboy. He's making a lot of noise and I don't see his push on FS. But maybe I'm missing something that FS has did that makes him scummy. FS is on my ISO list.

I'm trying to sort Ami right at the moment. I didn't like her statement in 685 because it sounds like she doesn't want to scum hunt.

I have a lot of null reads because they haven't posted or what they posted didn't make a big impression on me.

p-edit: TWL, what am I missing? Ami's post struck me as weird. Why does it not bother you?

Wee axel and Mir are missing even though they both have readable content at this point.

Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?

Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:
snip

Have you ISO'ed anyone yet?

I find your post kind of weird. Mostly due to the fact that the people you comment on are pretty spread out between the various groups of players.

Fine. I will say that if scum Mir was always planning to bus sky to some extent. This push doesn’t really make sense at all though ‘spread out between groups of players’ is dumb.

I've finally caught most of the way up from the weekend.

Kind of like Tammy for a lot of the same reasons, particularly early enthusiasm. I slogged through the whole back and forth with Wrong Lynch, and basically came out of that more agreeing with Tammy than Wrong. I don't have a "scum" read on The Wrong Lynch, but he's sort of fallen back to Neutral.

Other people I like okay to this point: podoboq, Sir Cakes, Mirhawk. Which maybe deserves a bigger post, but I don't see the Mirhawk hate. I mean, I understand, but I don't agree.

People in the middle: Pistachi0n, Pied Piper, Tic Tac, TrueOgre, Sakura Hana, Skybird. The Miller claim is kind of null to me. If pistachi0n had done it before most of the people in the game had already posted it would have been a stronger play, but the delayed entrance made it a much less risky proposition as a scum gambit. and then he was away for another day after, and by the time he came back Ami was no longer even voting for him. He hasn't done enough of anything else to give me a strong feeling about him. TicTac I thought had a strong entrance, but then the rest of his posting has been kind of meh. Sakura it's possible there's a language or cultural thing going on there but the whole exchange with him was just weird. The way he jumped on whether or not my random vote was serious did not make any sense at all. Skybird hasn't done much of anything. I kind of liked Ami's point about him, so he might be more a leaning scum than a total null.

I feel like Spiffeh is going to be impossible to read as someone who essentially posts nothing but 1-liners. I so cannot do that. I don't actively dislike anything he's said so far though.

Dramonic is like Spiffeh but with less content and worse opinions. He's definitely possible to be scum. The other people I like the least are (still) Friendless Seniors, and Davesaz. I also do not like the lurkers - Swordworth and SnarkytheSnowman. But that's almost as much a principle thing as anything they have actually posted.

I know some people asked me some questions in there and I'll get back to those in just a bit.

Remember that Axel went through those hoops to defend Mir but now woo he’s null town. Doesn’t make much sense to me.

@Axelrod

Regarding 288, thanks for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense. Being 90% certain seems like hyperbole to me, but I agree that he seems sincere in his hyperbole. Are you still townreading Mirhawk?

Pretty much.

I liked all Mirhawk's early stuff. I thought his questioning of davesaz was right on the money. The flack he's getting right now is entirely based off his supposed illogical reaction to Ami's "counter-claim" but I don't have a problem with what he said. I mean, this is the "reaction" post:

See it clearly is a fairly strong townread even though he put Mir as nulltown before.

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

Why are people that assosciate with each other necessarily the same alignment? This push seems fake to me.

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

I comment on what I see and in some instances who I know. For example, Tammy. I have played with her a few times and I feel this is her town game. Same with Spiffeh. I have also played with SirCakez before and I scum read him for his posting and he wasn't scum. :( I am being cautious about sorting him because I don't want to make that mistake again. I don't have an organized way I go through the player list and comment on people.

Why do you feel some people are associated together?

In case anyone's wondering, this is the only existing wagon which I'm comfortable with.

Every other one sucks. Except MAYBE pistachion.

.

Podo what do you think of skybird?

I really don't like the whole dropping his RVS vote 1000 posts into the game to start doing serious scumhunting, then the the first thing he does is ask Snarky (of all people) a question about something he said 1000 posts ago.

Too scummy to be scum is stupid, but I mean that's ridiculous.

It’s a semi-decent push on scum that wouldn’t have ever lived super long, take it as you will

Mirhawk, I'm re-reading the thread and working through ISO's. That's why you see the question to snarky.

And I never said I was good at this game. I just enjoy playing it.

eh

Mirhawk, I'm re-reading the thread and working through ISO's. That's why you see the question to snarky.

And I never said I was good at this game. I just enjoy playing it.

That's another thing, I don't really believe that.

You said you were doing ISO's four days ago, but I haven't seen any evidence of a person reading through ISO's since then.

Every single thing you mention in every post appears to be something that has happened within the last two or three pages, and its never concerning the same player consecutively.

The only thing I could believe is ISO related is your comment to Snarky. Which brings up the question of why did you start with him of all people.

I don't consider myself to be particularly good either. I'm cool with most players play so long as they're trying to have a good time. Doesn't mean I won't call random stuff scummy though.

WTF is starting with snarky scummy?

Mirhawk, in post 345 was a question to Sakura asking her thoughts on TWL and Dave. She responded to you immediately after in post 346. You say nothing in response. In post 878 you respond to Spiffeh calling TWL town with a no. Ten posts later you tell Spiffeh to quit townreading scum. If you are scum reading TWL why haven't you voted for them? Further, why aren't you pushing them?

p-edit: bad podo. :P

I am 100% okay with lynching Ranger to sort other people.

I'm looking to justify my Skybird read this way in fact.

Yeah wtf is lynching someone to sort other people…

The quick summary is Seniors claimed fruit vendor and Rangers L-1.

Included because this is the only Axel post Mir has in the last 1500 posts.

I got wigged last night. So there's seniors action.

I'm down with Pistachion and TWL.

I admittedly haven't spent a great deal of attention on Axel or Tictac.

Okay, so he admits he’s ignored Axel entirely (which he has and does contine to do).

Hrm, I read Tac's Iso.

Pretty lurky, but nothing stands out to me as particularly scummy.

What in particular looks scummy to you?

Reads tictac’s iso but never even tries to sort Axel, Axel just kinda sticks in the null-town category the whole game.

Curious, did you put that wig on your avatar yourself, or did the mod. actually provide you with that?

As awesome as it would be if Seniors had a role that forced people to change their avatar with wigged versions I must admit to doing it myself.

It just seemed like the right thing to do.

Omg 2 full interactions! And look how weak they are…

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Third Vote:

Mirhawk @ #1748. This is another case of the vote coming well after Mirhawk's issues with Ranger had already been laid out. As noted above, Mirhawk expressed dislike for Ranger as early as #1341. He was voting Skybird then, and stayed on Skybird at the time. I believe Mirhawk was also responding to Ranger's statement that the only two viable wagons were Mirhawk's and FS (which was clearly wrong). Mirhawk actually changed his vote to SirCakes prior to voting Ranger (during a time when there was maybe a tiny bit of momentum towards a Cakes wagon), but that didn't last very long, and I think the Cakes suspicion was/is justified anyway.

I've been mostly a Mirhawk fan this game and this isn't changing my opinion.

Fourth Vote

: Spiffeh @ #1830. Spiffeh was Town.

Basically Axel’s wagon analysis is everyone is varying degrees of scum except flipped town and Mirhawk.

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Who do you think is scum? When are we going to all realise you're town?

-snip-

I'm having a hard time figuring scum out. I still think FS is scummy, but am concerned that everyone else seems to have shifted away from them. Their posting did change about halfway through D1. FS is smart enough to know that they were being scum read and to shift their comments to seem more town. I also don't think fruit (wig) vendor is AI.

I'm leaning more scum now on tictac. I read through his ISO a few days ago and didn't see much to indicate to me he was scum, but I also didn't see a lot to indicate he was town. That hasn't changed much since I read his ISO and think he could be scum skating by.

I apologize because I'm going to have to finish this up when I get back. Husband just informed me that we have to leave NOW to go look at a boat we are thinking of buying.

True Ogre, I wanted to get back to you on this since I didn't get a chance to finish out.

I want to scum read Mirhawk but I am going back and forth on this read. Part of the reason I want to scum read him is because he is scum reading me and I agree that is a really shitty reason to scum read someone. I don't think he's right on Dave being scum. I have Dave as town. Most of the things Mirhawk has pointed out against Dave are him asking meaningless questions and not taking strong stances. But town is going to disagree on who we think are scum so again, this isn't a strong reason for scum reading him. I did like post 879 from Mirhawk. That really reads town to me. I don't agree with calling FS town just because they are a fruit vendor which Mirhawk is basically doing. If I was a mod this would be a great scum role just because most people do read it as a town role. I also didn't like that Mirhawk didn't seem to give any consideration to those of us saying Ranger was town. Anyway, this is basically the argument I am having with myself about whether Mirhawk is town or scum.

‘this isn’t strong, this isn’t strong, this isn’t strong, he might be town, this isn’t strong’. ;)

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

Nvm he’s not even not strong potentially mafia, he’s town! Also why does Skybird feel the need to make this post?

2872

Yeah, Skybird never stopped being scum. I still support this.

.

I was going to make a joke about eating cake after chicken or something like that, but then I realized that was dumb.

I can play ball on this, other people are supporting this wagon now so I'm not as worried about it dying out overnight. Not to mention I'm having a hard time believing I can scrape five more votes up by the end of the day.

Unvote
Vote: Skybird

.

@Axel
For the record, I only scumread Cakes after I read his ISO.

I didn't do that until Spiffah asked me to vote for him.

But yeah I'll agree that that vote looks shitty.

Omg an interaction with actual content guys!

I finally looked at Cakez case on Mirhawk from #1774.

The short version is, it's not as bad as the case he did on TicTac. I don't agree that most of the stuff he was arguing is alignment indicative (Mirhawk's davesaz push, Mirhawk's reaction to the Miller claim/counter-claim), but opinions can differ.

I'm going to call slight misrep to say that Mirhawk only voted Ranger late after other people already voted her, implying he waited until there was more support for it. There was plenty of lead up to that vote and there was nothing suspicious about it.

On the other hand, I will give Cakez #1612 and #1700, which was when Mirhawk briefly jumped over to Cakez, as that one did look a bit opportunistic.

So, that's not really changing much of anything.

Some valid points but it doesn’t change anything cause I say so. Mir still town guyz

I was going to do my own thing on Skybird next, but since PP just did one, I might end up just checking to see if I agree with that or not.

Skybird is obviously dying here and scum is jumping on the wagon.

Mirhawk, one of the reasons you wanted to lynch Ranger was because Ranger thought I was town and defended me. You also said that you would use the Ranger flip to figure me out. (post 2305) Ranger flipped town. And yet, you are still scum reading me. I don't see the logic there. You pushed for a mislynch and now you are pushing for a second one.

Weak pushback on Mirhawk, lends credibility to the bus. This post doesn’t make any sense given that Sky just called Mir town. This isn’t how you interact with town reads and Sky didn’t make an update post about her mir read like she did before.

The cases of Sky and TPP are weak af. Either might be scum but if they flip scum its cause town got lucky and RNGed a scum flip.

Do you even know why I'm voting Skybird?

The case was weak btw. The reason that wagon went over is that scum saw sky as a lost cause and went to bussing.

Skybird's D2 is a lot like her D1. I'm not going to post a whole thing on it. I support this.

Vote: Skybird

Unofficial Vote Count:

Skybird: Marquis, podoboq, The Pied Piper, Malakittens, Mirhawk, Axelrod (6)
The Pied Piper: Friendless Seniors, Dwlee99, dramonic, davesaz (4)
SirCakez: pistachi0n, tictac, Skybird (3)
Mirhawk: itlepip, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)
Malakittens: True Ogre (1)

See

people are ignoring me and that is REALLY fucking suspicious

I'm not ignoring you. But I'm not going to vote PP just because you say so either. PP needs more going over than I've got time to give right now.

Axel what do you think about Mirhawk? The only thing in your ISO I can find about him is you addressing the case I made on him.

I am a Mirhawk fan, and have been for most of the game. I have zero interest in voting for him.

Okay so Axel is either trying to pocket Mir or again they are just scum blocking together. The reason I’m pretty sure that Mir is scum here is that as town you would actually interact with people you are townreading. Try to convince him earlier that Sky is the right lynch etc. and he never does any of those.

Yeah, I think the king gets the final say in any lynch or something like that. The wiki page is kinda unhelpful for this one. Not sure if Skybird's claim is too convenient or not. It would have been super conformable if it had targeted anyone other then Tammy, but its' still possible.

I've never actually seen a kingmaker role, but I can't think of any reason for there to not be one either.

Trying to see if people buy the claim. Also remember that scum in their eye had a confirmable role that they lost to a lover so the bus makes a lot of sense just coming from that perspective.

I'm down with a cakez lynch. (And yeah, here come all the post about me trying to save my neck.)

Cakez is the counterwagon to sky…

Here, I don't think I've actually posted anything on Skybird today.

She had no scumreads day one, so she said she was going to do iso's on everyone.

But the only one she ever did was Snarky of all people. He had like three posts. What was she expecting to find? Why ask him a question, he was never going to answer. She asked him for reasoning on his very first post too, that question couldn't have been more pointless. "Hey Snarky, I know you're not here and probably aren't reading the game. But when you do show up can you please explain this post you made on page four"?

I can see town with no reads deciding to read some iso's to get some. But the only one she did was the most useless player in the game. Even if you had limited time, why only do someone who will yield nothing?

She then apparently don't do any more looking until immediately after I ask you what happened to those iso's you were doing. She then asks a rather halfhearted question about my read on TWL. A line of questioning that she immediately abandons. The whole thing just doesn't strike me at all as someone who's actually looking for scum, but rather like you were trying to just look busy.

Weird to do the push after sky was already getting lynched.

Thematically speaking I don't think Kingmaker is that unlikely in a game about musicals.

Maaan I don't know now. It's kinda playable.

Are you guys sure we can't just lynch Cakez.

And then immediately goes to sky’s counterwagon… I mean changing reads at deadline is fine but literally just made the big case of sky and then you immediately about face and try to move to cake. Also town would have moved their vote here ftr.

I've been thinking that maybe scum would likely be in the people who agreed with Ranger's reads when she entered the game, as she pretty much destroyed Skybirds wagon.

This includes Cakez (conveniently for me) but I can't really remember who else.

This of course depends on Seniors alignment, I think they're town but can't prove it. They look a little worse on insisting on Skybirds innocence yesterday, but I can't remember if they were on the Skybird wagon day one or not.

I find myself thinking that Skybird really did use her kingmaker shot on Tammy. No way to prove it now of course, but otherwise she probably would have said she still had it. Which I suppose means that there's no way scum noticed the lovers connection day one. I don't think this has any importance other then the fact that it's both ironic and lucky for us, as if she still had it she might have been labeled as town.

I'm going to reread Skybird's stuff later when I have time. But that'll likely be after the day one wagon on skybird.

My guess is scum tried to kill Ogre last night as he hinted the fuck out of some kind of role, and that the Vig chose not to kill or was similarly interfered with. Shenanigans of some sort would have stopped at least one kill. There obviously isn't any advantage in discussing it, but I figure someone should at least acknowledge it.

@Cakez
I don't care if you push me now, you got stuff going on. My problem was with that stretch of day one. I'm probably going to cool my jets on this until I've reread a bunch of skybird related stuff anyways.

This actually makes it look better for Mir if he weren’t still voting Skybird even as he tries to save them.

I decided to look at Skybird wagon first:

Skybird: Marquis, podoboq, Malakittens, Mirhawk, Axelrod, pistachi0n, True Ogre, The Pied Piper, Dwlee99 (9)
The Pied Piper: Friendless Seniors, dramonic, davesaz (3)
Mirhawk: itlepip, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)
SirCakez: tictac, Skybird (2)

1st Vote

: Marquis at #2875. This is just a continuation vote from earlier push going back to D1. Marquis is Town, or Town has no Cop and we are going to lose.

2nd Vote

: podoboq at #2876. "Marquis is right," which isn't the greatest, but it looks like podo had Sky in at least his "top 3rd" list of suspicious people. He doesn't have his own case, but is basically barning Marquis and being fairly transparant about it. I've been reading podo strongly town most of the game.

3rd Vote

: malakittens at #3160. This is just a naked vote. In isolation, I would have said it could be a candidate for a possible Bus vote, but, malakittens/TWL has now been cop cleared, so, probably not.

4th Vote

: mirhawk at #3161. Not the greatest vote. Admittedly waggoning because he can't get momentum on his preferred lynch (Cakez). But he voted Skybird on D1 also, and never appeared to change his opinion on her. Mirhawk still looks okay.

5th Vote

: Me at #3398. I mean, do your own assessment. I reviewed her, didn't like her. Pretty much 'nuff said.

6th Vote

: pistachion (confirmed Town)

7th Vote

: True Ogre at #3468. Pretty much just a wagon vote as we approached deadline. Skybird was not Ogre's focus before this, it was mainly PP. He was "really skeptical" of a Skybird lynch as of #3325. The whole sequence is a little weird as it kind of reads like Ogre suspecting PP, to going along and following with him. (Note: PP was voting for Skybird before this, but will subsequently unvote, and then go back to voting which is why Ogre's vote comes first on this votecount). This one is another possible bus vote.

8th Vote

: PP at #3591 "I'm tired". As noted, PP was previously voting for Sky in #2877, but then unvoted in #3545. PP also did that huge "ISO Map" of Skybird's game activity in #3114, which looked like too much work for scum (though I've been told, not for him?). I don't know, the Unvote looks a little weird. PP talks about wanting to give Skybird "space" so Sky can give her reads, and it's all a little too earnest for me somehow.

9th Vote

: Dwlee99 at #3612. Naked hammer drop. Also a complete reversal from #3519, and #3553. Apparently his opinion changed very rapidly over the span of like 2 posts. This was also close to deadline. Still kind of eeeehhh. Dwlee is going to be a hard read for me with that style, but didn't love this.

If this isn't an all town wagon, the worst looking votes here are TrueOgre, PP and Dwlee.

Also noteworthy there were some other Skybird voters who left the wagon before the end - I believe Cakez and itlepip both were voting her at some point.

I haven't looked at the other people who were voting other people at the end yet.

Again just skips over mir and calls him town.

I want everyone to read 465 and 697 and tell me why Axel is conveniently not in the readlist after Sky defended him.

Also Dwlee stop being just wrong.

Pretty sure Skybird was trying to engage Dramonic, not defend Axel.

Yay my correct read and Mir defending scum.

I finally had a chance to dig into Marquis case on Mirhawk from 4439. And I'm not voting there.

The thing is, Marquis, most of what you're accusing Mirhawk of just isn't accurate. You're saying he's acting inconsistent with respect to his reads, but I don't see that. He had Skybird as a scum read from early on D1, and never came off that. The one post you quoted, where Mirhawk agrees (with FS) that your point against Skybird for unvoting after pistacion was mod-cleared wasn't really a point, doesn't change that. He can think that's not a valid point without it being a defense of Skybird and I didn't read it that way. It's more an expression of skepticism against you, which is something else he's been consistent on.

He also hasn't flipped-flopped on Cakez as far as I can tell. He's called Cakez scum for a long time and that hasn't changed. And I guess I'm more sympathetic than you are to the idea that he could lose enthusiasm for the vote when no one else seemed interested in voting the same way. I also don't read Mirhawk's post as him "immediately believing" TPP's claim about Cakez. I read it as "why would you say this (TPP) if what you are saying is true..." He's criticizing TPP (and not simply believing him). I also think the way TPP acted around that whole "reveal" was strange. The post asking Cakez not to vig him looked mostly like a joke.

Aside from that, I'm seeing suspicion for him not 100% accepting your claim at face value, which is kind of ehh. I think he's being overly paranoid, but the fact is, you

could

be pulling some kind of scum-gambit, and I don't think he's seriously arguing that, just reminding people of it. So, you can get on him for that, but he's not wrong. And I'm not sure what advantage he gets as scum in that spot. And his posts around your fake-miller claim, which I also don't find scummy.

There's just not that much there. And I agree with a lot more of Mirhawk's posts than I disagree with, which probably isn't true for most of the people in this game.

Axel spends a lot of time defending Mirhawk this game.

Frankly, I think everything you thought was suspicious about Mirhawk applies like 2x over to SirCakez.

Pushing away from Mir on to cake

This is all off the top of my head as I don't feel like looking anything up.

The Pied Piper - Lied to everyone regarding the reason they couldn't disclose information, then later pretended in sequence that it wasn't suspicious/didn't happen/and that talking about it was rolefishing. I am in fact astounded and confused that pretty much NOBODY in town appears to give a shit about this as it's pretty cut and dried scummy behavior. It can't just be the scum as there can't be more then three or four of them in total, most of the town apparently decided that they wouldn't even acknowledge that this is even happening for ~reasons~. Obviously my read on them is scum, as I can't think of a reason for town to behave the way they did.

Friendless Seniors - Kinda split on Seniors. Their "I don't give a shit" attitude day one made me think they were town. I've kept to this all game as I feel that most of cases made on them for the whole game were pretty bad or pointless meta bullshit (or both). Their attitude over that last couple days has been pretty sketchy though. Them suddenly scumreading/voting me is pretty opportunistic/survivalist, which looks shitty but isn't necessarily something town wouldn't do. Their reads from their reread are terrible and fake as hell though. Knowing the flips we have now does add new information on a reread, but I barely interacted with any of the dead players until after page thirty. If anything I would think I should look more town because I started questioning Skybird immediately after she started playing. Also saying that Piper is scum if I flip town seems super convenient for tomorrow. I don't know, their town game has been fucking terrible, but they still don't strike me terribly as scum. I'd probably call them null.

SirCakez - I don't like players spending too much time talking about Meta, as I view that mostly as filler bullshit that people spam when they don't have real cases. I would like to point out though that my experience with Cakez makes me aware that he doesn't have to spend most of day one with his thumb up his butt doing nothing, especially not pushing the scumread he spent the whole friggin day voting for. Have any of you paid attention to his posts today, he's spent most of the day coasting/saying Mirhawks scum/complaining about other players. He doesn't even seem to care that I'm about to be lynched, he probably couldn't act more apathetic then he is. 10/10 scum, I'm disappointed in everyone who doesn't see this.


Axelrod - I've ignored Axel all game and don't really have much of on opinion on them. I find them townish, but otherwise I don't really have anything to say about them.

Mirhawk - Mirhawk strikes me as super frustrated in general in how despite repeatedly laying out solid cases on his scumreads, the cases he makes are universally ignored by most of town. Seriously screw all you guys.

dramonic - Doesn't say a lot, but is consistent in his reads. Engaged much more in day three and whenever he does make substantial posts they seem pretty good. Other then the fact that I wish he offered his opinions more freely instead of waiting for people to press him on them I find him fairly townish.

Dwlee99 - I like Dwlee's posting. Despite the fact that he's been going hard on Piper for the whole game, he still seem connected with the goings-ons of the rest of the town. I wish he would branch out a little to look for Pipers partners, but aside from that I think he's pretty town.

Marquis - Marquis is probably town. There isn't really much else to say. I would still be tickled pink if he got rolecoped, as that would heave us with four confirmed townies instead of one. I also like his recent case on me. Don't get me wrong, it sucked tons, but it still makes him the only person on my wagon who is trying to provide any kind of reason as to why I should be lynched. It also means he actually is looking for scum. which a lot of other players aren't. I'm still moderately peeved with him for torpedoing two of my scumreads today, but it's for a good cause so it's fine I guess. Also after my flip it should be apparent that I TOTALLY CALLED THAT MILLER GAMBIT AND IN YOUR FACE EVERYONE WHO SAID I DIDN'T.

Flubbernugget - I didn't really have much of an opinion on Tictac, though I did think her posting made sense for a person who was apparently spending the entire game making catchup posts. Flubber is unfortunately exactly the same. I think his posting is townish and decent in general, but god I wish he would just catch up already.

Cerberus v666 - I'm mildly scumreading Cerberus though I'm not entirely sure why. I know I've seen a lot of posts from him that I don't really like very much, but he's just never seemed like an important enough read to spend any time getting a more concrete one. He's been pushing for my lynch for a really long time, but somehow despite that I still don't really understand why he thinks I'm scum. I know he's posted a couple cases on me, but I found them pretty weak and I'm seeming to remember that I poked them full of holes. Despite the pokes though he's never really seemed to think about anything I've said, and I don't particularly like how he's basically deathtunneled me for the whole game without doing much of anything else. So a mild scumread

Malakittens - I don't really have much to say about Mala other then the fact that I don't really like the way she's treated this game. I know she's really busy and all, but she's not even making a effort to say things like "Ill have more time this weekend", or "I am reading along but don't have much to say" or "I like the push on x, I'll vote with it". I'm not expecting her to make cases or anything, but I am expecting somewhat more involvement. This doesn't really matter as she's apparently cop cleared, but it still bugs me. The fact that my impression of her is that she isn't a bad player makes this even worse for me, I really do wish she was more involved.

itlepip - Pip, oh pip. I tried for a long time to preserve my Beeboy read, but it's pretty much gone now. I'm going to start by saying that I really hope you are scum pip, Because if this is your towngame then I don't really know what to say. Pip entered the game with three scumreads (I think the first two were Axel and Podo, but I can't really remember) the last was me. I was by far the weakest read, with his opinion on me not even being scum but rather "mirhawk made some posts I don't really like" or something like that. He voted and engaged both of his other "actual scumreads but got solidly shut down on both of them almost immediately after voting for them. Then seeing as how I was the only one he had left he immediately switched me to "OMG mirhawk is so super scum" for no apparent reason. He's been hardpushing me ever since without really doing much of anything to justify this position. He asked me a couple pages ago why I thought Piper where Piper lied (which is surprising as that makes him the only one of you mooks other then Ogre to show even the slightest interest in talking to me about it), but then in a bizarre twist completely ignored my response to him where I told him where the relevant posts were. He keeps saying things like I'm confirmed as scum, or if I flip town the game is bastard, but is providing absolutely so indication as to where this ironclad certainty on his read came from. Honestly I'm labeling him as scum, because I can't imagine he's this bad at being town.

pistachi0n - Pistachion is confirmed town, but isn't trying very hard to find scum.

True Ogre - True Ogre is easily the townist player in the game. He's engaging all the major wagons, he's looking for scum, and the points he brings up feel genuine, as in he actually want's to know the answers.

davesaz - Dave honestly needs to try harder. If he wasn't confirmed by Marquis I would seriously still be scumreading him. He isn't really doing anything that would help town at all. I have no idea what his reads are because he never pushes anyone, but rather has some wagons that he'll vote on because they aren't "too bad". He occasionally makes observations that I feel are pretty decent, but it's too bad he doesn't do anything with them.

podoboq - I have a mild townread on Podo. He makes some good posts, and some not so good posts, but no really bad ones. I feel like he is actually trying to look for scum which instantly elevates him above some of the other players in the game. I don't think I agree with all his reads, but whatever, he's fine.

Basically
Person-content
Person-content
Axel- nothing
Person-content
Person-IC
This is too easy.

eeh, I'm not really feeling axel.

Not feeling the wagon on the null read you haven’t sorted yet with 5000 posts :P

Axelrod - I've ignored Axel all game and don't really have much of on opinion on them. I find them townish, but otherwise I don't really have anything to say about them.

This is really bad
There's no way you just have Axel as "sorta townish, nothing else to say"

And yet I do.

I think in four hundred posts I've directed like one of them to Axel.

But if you want to peruse my posts to see if there's something that indicates I have more thoughts on him be my guest.

Obviously missing the point. Having 5000 posts into a game and a null-town read with no analysis is really bad on a fairly active slot. Mirhawk has never this game given any real thought to Axel’s alignment.

Nah, I just don't see the will in town to change to a different target. Realistically speaking the other options are Axel, Piper, Seniors, and Cakez.

The Axel wagon is too new and simply doesn't have enough people who think he's scum, not to mention there's not really enough time for those that think he is scum to convince anyone else.

Piper had its heyday already. There's a few people who support it, but if there was any real amount of will for this wagon I would have found it days ago.

Seniors has been flirting with death all game, and I don't really see a whole bunch of people jumping back on them now.

There's actually at best only like four people who support a Cakez wagon, believe me I tried.

I'm going to flip town, but like you said I'm a VT so its not a huge loss.

Axel is not going to get lynched because his wagon is new. Also you’d think that Mirhawk would throw in “I think he’s town’ or something here but he doesn’t/

I've found scum and I've spent days throat stuffing. The problem is that nobody cares about the people I think are scum.

I don't think Axel is scum, and Hiplop's recent posts have been town as fuck so I'm not going there.

I've been arguing against shitty bullshit garbage cases on me all goddamn game. Apparently town is okay with lynching me despite there being NO FUCKING CASE ON ME AT ALL SO FUCK ALL THE TOWN WHO HAVEN'T BOTHERED EVEN ASKING ANYONE WHY THEY'RE VOTING ME.

What are you honestly expecting me to say here Ogre.

More have no read on Axel but its not scum.

can we PLEASE lynch axel OR piper.

Pick one.

And what the fuck is he doing going from this to "IT'S NOT A 1V1 BETWEEN US! I KNOW YOU WANT TO MAKE IT ONE BUT IT'S NOT BECAUSE I HAVE MORE SUBSTANTIAL READS HUEHUEHUEHUEHE"? Axel has 4 votes. I have 2. Dramonic would vote us, FS would move over, Mirhawk would move over, there's plenty of paranoia abounding on us from all angles. Why isn't he pushing us today when this is, again, the best opportunity to get us lynched?

Because he knows that if we 1v1, he will die, and he knows that there is no way in hell that we get mislynched after he flips scum.

Why would I move to Axel? If I'm not willing to move to seniors who I currently have as null, why would I move to Axel who I'm townreading?

For what reason????

Unvote

Vote: Friendless Seniors

Better than Mirhawk.

Lolll

[itlepip]

How bad is it that my reaction to Dwlee's cc was boredom. Anyways since the ninja just died we would never lynch either until tomorrow at the earliest

[itlepip]

Yo, can someone run by me why Dwlee deathtunneled TPP for what he saw a slight inconsistency about roles but he isn't with flubber even though its a kind of CC?

[itlepip]

But TPP's thing wasn't a real slip.

[itlepip]

For those following at home I still think Mirhawk slipped role hunting he was doing in a scum pt. This actually works perfectly if dwlee is a scum tracker too.

....

Why have you previously expressed a degree of dissatisfaction with my slot and/or the Mirhawk push if you feel that way?

Because those happened before what I'm seeing now

<3 good answer.

Pip rating scale.

This post is hereby declared NAI

[itlepip]

Well me having confbias doesn't make the evidence go away.

[itlepip]

My point, is that you have to address what I said instead of just saying confBias and handwaving it away.

[itlepip]

Geez. No, I am not seriously policy lynching TWL because Hydra. I have no actual opinion of them yet.

I am having a hard time believing that you could seriously believe that either.

+1

I'm also having trouble believing that all the people who are supporting Saks on this think its legit as well.

Want to include all interactions for completeness.

Why haven't you voted Axel yet?

If you don't intend to vote him why do you keep making sidelong comments on his wagon?

I don't really think "this is what I do" is a very good justification.

.

So, so far, I like Mirhawk, and I like Sir Cakes. I also really like TicTac's first post.

-snip-

Likes Mir a lot right now. Never really explains this read but holds it the entire game. Which he really doesn’t do with Cake.

False dichotomy. You leave out the possibility that the behavior is neutral (or that I haven't formed an opinion on it yet) but the responses to my comments from him and others will help me sort people.

That's not how a false dichotomy works, as evidenced by the fact that you managed to answer my second question while pretending you didn't.

Both of the statements you made about Axel were accusatory in tone, they didn't sound neutral to me at least. Do you think Axel is town or scum?

@B
Dunno man, being self involved isn't really a scum tell.

You presented an either/or question which presented that there could not be any other answer, where the answer was none of the above. It doesn't get any more false dichotomy than that.

I made it very clear that my read is null. Your push however is not.
VOTE: Mirhawk

Ew. Bad vote.

First, you were totally casting aspersions on me without voting for me, which, is a thing you can do - not every suspicion is worth a vote - but when you get challenged for it don't pretend it wasn't what you were doing either. Also, you totally did NOT make it "clear" that your read was "null." What you said was (in response to the challenge) that Mirhawk was leaving out a 3rd possibility that the behavior was "neutral" or you hadn't formed an opinion on it yet (which is two different things), without actually saying that this was, in fact, your position. How was this "clear"?
-snipy-

Either Axel spent the entire game trying to build a false association with Mir and Mir as town just happened to ignore Axel or they are just scum together.

Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?

Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:

My strongest townread is Tammy. I'm feeling pretty confident she is town. Spiffah is also pretty town.

I'm leaning town on Dramonic. He's playing like he did in the last game I was in with him. I'm also leaning town on you.

I'm not sure about Beeboy. He's making a lot of noise and I don't see his push on FS. But maybe I'm missing something that FS has did that makes him scummy. FS is on my ISO list.

I'm trying to sort Ami right at the moment. I didn't like her statement in 685 because it sounds like she doesn't want to scum hunt.

I have a lot of null reads because they haven't posted or what they posted didn't make a big impression on me.

p-edit: TWL, what am I missing? Ami's post struck me as weird. Why does it not bother you?

Wee axel and Mir are missing even though they both have readable content at this point.

Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?

Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:
snip

Have you ISO'ed anyone yet?

I find your post kind of weird. Mostly due to the fact that the people you comment on are pretty spread out between the various groups of players.

Fine. I will say that if scum Mir was always planning to bus sky to some extent. This push doesn’t really make sense at all though ‘spread out between groups of players’ is dumb.

I've finally caught most of the way up from the weekend.

Kind of like Tammy for a lot of the same reasons, particularly early enthusiasm. I slogged through the whole back and forth with Wrong Lynch, and basically came out of that more agreeing with Tammy than Wrong. I don't have a "scum" read on The Wrong Lynch, but he's sort of fallen back to Neutral.

Other people I like okay to this point: podoboq, Sir Cakes, Mirhawk. Which maybe deserves a bigger post, but I don't see the Mirhawk hate. I mean, I understand, but I don't agree.

People in the middle: Pistachi0n, Pied Piper, Tic Tac, TrueOgre, Sakura Hana, Skybird. The Miller claim is kind of null to me. If pistachi0n had done it before most of the people in the game had already posted it would have been a stronger play, but the delayed entrance made it a much less risky proposition as a scum gambit. and then he was away for another day after, and by the time he came back Ami was no longer even voting for him. He hasn't done enough of anything else to give me a strong feeling about him. TicTac I thought had a strong entrance, but then the rest of his posting has been kind of meh. Sakura it's possible there's a language or cultural thing going on there but the whole exchange with him was just weird. The way he jumped on whether or not my random vote was serious did not make any sense at all. Skybird hasn't done much of anything. I kind of liked Ami's point about him, so he might be more a leaning scum than a total null.

I feel like Spiffeh is going to be impossible to read as someone who essentially posts nothing but 1-liners. I so cannot do that. I don't actively dislike anything he's said so far though.

Dramonic is like Spiffeh but with less content and worse opinions. He's definitely possible to be scum. The other people I like the least are (still) Friendless Seniors, and Davesaz. I also do not like the lurkers - Swordworth and SnarkytheSnowman. But that's almost as much a principle thing as anything they have actually posted.

I know some people asked me some questions in there and I'll get back to those in just a bit.

Remember that Axel went through those hoops to defend Mir but now woo he’s null town. Doesn’t make much sense to me.

@Axelrod

Regarding 288, thanks for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense. Being 90% certain seems like hyperbole to me, but I agree that he seems sincere in his hyperbole. Are you still townreading Mirhawk?

Pretty much.

I liked all Mirhawk's early stuff. I thought his questioning of davesaz was right on the money. The flack he's getting right now is entirely based off his supposed illogical reaction to Ami's "counter-claim" but I don't have a problem with what he said. I mean, this is the "reaction" post:

See it clearly is a fairly strong townread even though he put Mir as nulltown before.

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

Why are people that assosciate with each other necessarily the same alignment? This push seems fake to me.

I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.

In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.

The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.

I comment on what I see and in some instances who I know. For example, Tammy. I have played with her a few times and I feel this is her town game. Same with Spiffeh. I have also played with SirCakez before and I scum read him for his posting and he wasn't scum. :( I am being cautious about sorting him because I don't want to make that mistake again. I don't have an organized way I go through the player list and comment on people.

Why do you feel some people are associated together?

In case anyone's wondering, this is the only existing wagon which I'm comfortable with.

Every other one sucks. Except MAYBE pistachion.

.

Podo what do you think of skybird?

I really don't like the whole dropping his RVS vote 1000 posts into the game to start doing serious scumhunting, then the the first thing he does is ask Snarky (of all people) a question about something he said 1000 posts ago.

Too scummy to be scum is stupid, but I mean that's ridiculous.

It’s a semi-decent push on scum that wouldn’t have ever lived super long, take it as you will

Mirhawk, I'm re-reading the thread and working through ISO's. That's why you see the question to snarky.

And I never said I was good at this game. I just enjoy playing it.

eh

Mirhawk, I'm re-reading the thread and working through ISO's. That's why you see the question to snarky.

And I never said I was good at this game. I just enjoy playing it.

That's another thing, I don't really believe that.

You said you were doing ISO's four days ago, but I haven't seen any evidence of a person reading through ISO's since then.

Every single thing you mention in every post appears to be something that has happened within the last two or three pages, and its never concerning the same player consecutively.

The only thing I could believe is ISO related is your comment to Snarky. Which brings up the question of why did you start with him of all people.

I don't consider myself to be particularly good either. I'm cool with most players play so long as they're trying to have a good time. Doesn't mean I won't call random stuff scummy though.

WTF is starting with snarky scummy?

Mirhawk, in post 345 was a question to Sakura asking her thoughts on TWL and Dave. She responded to you immediately after in post 346. You say nothing in response. In post 878 you respond to Spiffeh calling TWL town with a no. Ten posts later you tell Spiffeh to quit townreading scum. If you are scum reading TWL why haven't you voted for them? Further, why aren't you pushing them?

p-edit: bad podo. :P

I am 100% okay with lynching Ranger to sort other people.

I'm looking to justify my Skybird read this way in fact.

Yeah wtf is lynching someone to sort other people…

The quick summary is Seniors claimed fruit vendor and Rangers L-1.

Included because this is the only Axel post Mir has in the last 1500 posts.

I got wigged last night. So there's seniors action.

I'm down with Pistachion and TWL.

I admittedly haven't spent a great deal of attention on Axel or Tictac.

Okay, so he admits he’s ignored Axel entirely (which he has and does contine to do).

Hrm, I read Tac's Iso.

Pretty lurky, but nothing stands out to me as particularly scummy.

What in particular looks scummy to you?

Reads tictac’s iso but never even tries to sort Axel, Axel just kinda sticks in the null-town category the whole game.

Curious, did you put that wig on your avatar yourself, or did the mod. actually provide you with that?

As awesome as it would be if Seniors had a role that forced people to change their avatar with wigged versions I must admit to doing it myself.

It just seemed like the right thing to do.

Omg 2 full interactions! And look how weak they are…

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Third Vote:

Mirhawk @ #1748. This is another case of the vote coming well after Mirhawk's issues with Ranger had already been laid out. As noted above, Mirhawk expressed dislike for Ranger as early as #1341. He was voting Skybird then, and stayed on Skybird at the time. I believe Mirhawk was also responding to Ranger's statement that the only two viable wagons were Mirhawk's and FS (which was clearly wrong). Mirhawk actually changed his vote to SirCakes prior to voting Ranger (during a time when there was maybe a tiny bit of momentum towards a Cakes wagon), but that didn't last very long, and I think the Cakes suspicion was/is justified anyway.

I've been mostly a Mirhawk fan this game and this isn't changing my opinion.

Fourth Vote

: Spiffeh @ #1830. Spiffeh was Town.

Basically Axel’s wagon analysis is everyone is varying degrees of scum except flipped town and Mirhawk.

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Who do you think is scum? When are we going to all realise you're town?

-snip-

I'm having a hard time figuring scum out. I still think FS is scummy, but am concerned that everyone else seems to have shifted away from them. Their posting did change about halfway through D1. FS is smart enough to know that they were being scum read and to shift their comments to seem more town. I also don't think fruit (wig) vendor is AI.

I'm leaning more scum now on tictac. I read through his ISO a few days ago and didn't see much to indicate to me he was scum, but I also didn't see a lot to indicate he was town. That hasn't changed much since I read his ISO and think he could be scum skating by.

I apologize because I'm going to have to finish this up when I get back. Husband just informed me that we have to leave NOW to go look at a boat we are thinking of buying.

True Ogre, I wanted to get back to you on this since I didn't get a chance to finish out.

I want to scum read Mirhawk but I am going back and forth on this read. Part of the reason I want to scum read him is because he is scum reading me and I agree that is a really shitty reason to scum read someone. I don't think he's right on Dave being scum. I have Dave as town. Most of the things Mirhawk has pointed out against Dave are him asking meaningless questions and not taking strong stances. But town is going to disagree on who we think are scum so again, this isn't a strong reason for scum reading him. I did like post 879 from Mirhawk. That really reads town to me. I don't agree with calling FS town just because they are a fruit vendor which Mirhawk is basically doing. If I was a mod this would be a great scum role just because most people do read it as a town role. I also didn't like that Mirhawk didn't seem to give any consideration to those of us saying Ranger was town. Anyway, this is basically the argument I am having with myself about whether Mirhawk is town or scum.

‘this isn’t strong, this isn’t strong, this isn’t strong, he might be town, this isn’t strong’. ;)

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

Nvm he’s not even not strong potentially mafia, he’s town! Also why does Skybird feel the need to make this post?

2872

Yeah, Skybird never stopped being scum. I still support this.

.

I was going to make a joke about eating cake after chicken or something like that, but then I realized that was dumb.

I can play ball on this, other people are supporting this wagon now so I'm not as worried about it dying out overnight. Not to mention I'm having a hard time believing I can scrape five more votes up by the end of the day.

Unvote
Vote: Skybird

.

@Axel
For the record, I only scumread Cakes after I read his ISO.

I didn't do that until Spiffah asked me to vote for him.

But yeah I'll agree that that vote looks shitty.

Omg an interaction with actual content guys!

I finally looked at Cakez case on Mirhawk from #1774.

The short version is, it's not as bad as the case he did on TicTac. I don't agree that most of the stuff he was arguing is alignment indicative (Mirhawk's davesaz push, Mirhawk's reaction to the Miller claim/counter-claim), but opinions can differ.

I'm going to call slight misrep to say that Mirhawk only voted Ranger late after other people already voted her, implying he waited until there was more support for it. There was plenty of lead up to that vote and there was nothing suspicious about it.

On the other hand, I will give Cakez #1612 and #1700, which was when Mirhawk briefly jumped over to Cakez, as that one did look a bit opportunistic.

So, that's not really changing much of anything.

Some valid points but it doesn’t change anything cause I say so. Mir still town guyz

I was going to do my own thing on Skybird next, but since PP just did one, I might end up just checking to see if I agree with that or not.

Skybird is obviously dying here and scum is jumping on the wagon.

Mirhawk, one of the reasons you wanted to lynch Ranger was because Ranger thought I was town and defended me. You also said that you would use the Ranger flip to figure me out. (post 2305) Ranger flipped town. And yet, you are still scum reading me. I don't see the logic there. You pushed for a mislynch and now you are pushing for a second one.

Weak pushback on Mirhawk, lends credibility to the bus. This post doesn’t make any sense given that Sky just called Mir town. This isn’t how you interact with town reads and Sky didn’t make an update post about her mir read like she did before.

The cases of Sky and TPP are weak af. Either might be scum but if they flip scum its cause town got lucky and RNGed a scum flip.

Do you even know why I'm voting Skybird?

The case was weak btw. The reason that wagon went over is that scum saw sky as a lost cause and went to bussing.

Skybird's D2 is a lot like her D1. I'm not going to post a whole thing on it. I support this.

Vote: Skybird

Unofficial Vote Count:

Skybird: Marquis, podoboq, The Pied Piper, Malakittens, Mirhawk, Axelrod (6)
The Pied Piper: Friendless Seniors, Dwlee99, dramonic, davesaz (4)
SirCakez: pistachi0n, tictac, Skybird (3)
Mirhawk: itlepip, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)
Malakittens: True Ogre (1)

See

people are ignoring me and that is REALLY fucking suspicious

I'm not ignoring you. But I'm not going to vote PP just because you say so either. PP needs more going over than I've got time to give right now.

Axel what do you think about Mirhawk? The only thing in your ISO I can find about him is you addressing the case I made on him.

I am a Mirhawk fan, and have been for most of the game. I have zero interest in voting for him.

Okay so Axel is either trying to pocket Mir or again they are just scum blocking together. The reason I’m pretty sure that Mir is scum here is that as town you would actually interact with people you are townreading. Try to convince him earlier that Sky is the right lynch etc. and he never does any of those.

Yeah, I think the king gets the final say in any lynch or something like that. The wiki page is kinda unhelpful for this one. Not sure if Skybird's claim is too convenient or not. It would have been super conformable if it had targeted anyone other then Tammy, but its' still possible.

I've never actually seen a kingmaker role, but I can't think of any reason for there to not be one either.

Trying to see if people buy the claim. Also remember that scum in their eye had a confirmable role that they lost to a lover so the bus makes a lot of sense just coming from that perspective.

I'm down with a cakez lynch. (And yeah, here come all the post about me trying to save my neck.)

Cakez is the counterwagon to sky…

Here, I don't think I've actually posted anything on Skybird today.

She had no scumreads day one, so she said she was going to do iso's on everyone.

But the only one she ever did was Snarky of all people. He had like three posts. What was she expecting to find? Why ask him a question, he was never going to answer. She asked him for reasoning on his very first post too, that question couldn't have been more pointless. "Hey Snarky, I know you're not here and probably aren't reading the game. But when you do show up can you please explain this post you made on page four"?

I can see town with no reads deciding to read some iso's to get some. But the only one she did was the most useless player in the game. Even if you had limited time, why only do someone who will yield nothing?

She then apparently don't do any more looking until immediately after I ask you what happened to those iso's you were doing. She then asks a rather halfhearted question about my read on TWL. A line of questioning that she immediately abandons. The whole thing just doesn't strike me at all as someone who's actually looking for scum, but rather like you were trying to just look busy.

Weird to do the push after sky was already getting lynched.

Thematically speaking I don't think Kingmaker is that unlikely in a game about musicals.

Maaan I don't know now. It's kinda playable.

Are you guys sure we can't just lynch Cakez.

And then immediately goes to sky’s counterwagon… I mean changing reads at deadline is fine but literally just made the big case of sky and then you immediately about face and try to move to cake. Also town would have moved their vote here ftr.

I've been thinking that maybe scum would likely be in the people who agreed with Ranger's reads when she entered the game, as she pretty much destroyed Skybirds wagon.

This includes Cakez (conveniently for me) but I can't really remember who else.

This of course depends on Seniors alignment, I think they're town but can't prove it. They look a little worse on insisting on Skybirds innocence yesterday, but I can't remember if they were on the Skybird wagon day one or not.

I find myself thinking that Skybird really did use her kingmaker shot on Tammy. No way to prove it now of course, but otherwise she probably would have said she still had it. Which I suppose means that there's no way scum noticed the lovers connection day one. I don't think this has any importance other then the fact that it's both ironic and lucky for us, as if she still had it she might have been labeled as town.

I'm going to reread Skybird's stuff later when I have time. But that'll likely be after the day one wagon on skybird.

My guess is scum tried to kill Ogre last night as he hinted the fuck out of some kind of role, and that the Vig chose not to kill or was similarly interfered with. Shenanigans of some sort would have stopped at least one kill. There obviously isn't any advantage in discussing it, but I figure someone should at least acknowledge it.

@Cakez
I don't care if you push me now, you got stuff going on. My problem was with that stretch of day one. I'm probably going to cool my jets on this until I've reread a bunch of skybird related stuff anyways.

This actually makes it look better for Mir if he weren’t still voting Skybird even as he tries to save them.

I decided to look at Skybird wagon first:

Skybird: Marquis, podoboq, Malakittens, Mirhawk, Axelrod, pistachi0n, True Ogre, The Pied Piper, Dwlee99 (9)
The Pied Piper: Friendless Seniors, dramonic, davesaz (3)
Mirhawk: itlepip, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)
SirCakez: tictac, Skybird (2)

1st Vote

: Marquis at #2875. This is just a continuation vote from earlier push going back to D1. Marquis is Town, or Town has no Cop and we are going to lose.

2nd Vote

: podoboq at #2876. "Marquis is right," which isn't the greatest, but it looks like podo had Sky in at least his "top 3rd" list of suspicious people. He doesn't have his own case, but is basically barning Marquis and being fairly transparant about it. I've been reading podo strongly town most of the game.

3rd Vote

: malakittens at #3160. This is just a naked vote. In isolation, I would have said it could be a candidate for a possible Bus vote, but, malakittens/TWL has now been cop cleared, so, probably not.

4th Vote

: mirhawk at #3161. Not the greatest vote. Admittedly waggoning because he can't get momentum on his preferred lynch (Cakez). But he voted Skybird on D1 also, and never appeared to change his opinion on her. Mirhawk still looks okay.

5th Vote

: Me at #3398. I mean, do your own assessment. I reviewed her, didn't like her. Pretty much 'nuff said.

6th Vote

: pistachion (confirmed Town)

7th Vote

: True Ogre at #3468. Pretty much just a wagon vote as we approached deadline. Skybird was not Ogre's focus before this, it was mainly PP. He was "really skeptical" of a Skybird lynch as of #3325. The whole sequence is a little weird as it kind of reads like Ogre suspecting PP, to going along and following with him. (Note: PP was voting for Skybird before this, but will subsequently unvote, and then go back to voting which is why Ogre's vote comes first on this votecount). This one is another possible bus vote.

8th Vote

: PP at #3591 "I'm tired". As noted, PP was previously voting for Sky in #2877, but then unvoted in #3545. PP also did that huge "ISO Map" of Skybird's game activity in #3114, which looked like too much work for scum (though I've been told, not for him?). I don't know, the Unvote looks a little weird. PP talks about wanting to give Skybird "space" so Sky can give her reads, and it's all a little too earnest for me somehow.

9th Vote

: Dwlee99 at #3612. Naked hammer drop. Also a complete reversal from #3519, and #3553. Apparently his opinion changed very rapidly over the span of like 2 posts. This was also close to deadline. Still kind of eeeehhh. Dwlee is going to be a hard read for me with that style, but didn't love this.

If this isn't an all town wagon, the worst looking votes here are TrueOgre, PP and Dwlee.

Also noteworthy there were some other Skybird voters who left the wagon before the end - I believe Cakez and itlepip both were voting her at some point.

I haven't looked at the other people who were voting other people at the end yet.

Again just skips over mir and calls him town.

I want everyone to read 465 and 697 and tell me why Axel is conveniently not in the readlist after Sky defended him.

Also Dwlee stop being just wrong.

Pretty sure Skybird was trying to engage Dramonic, not defend Axel.

Yay my correct read and Mir defending scum.

I finally had a chance to dig into Marquis case on Mirhawk from 4439. And I'm not voting there.

The thing is, Marquis, most of what you're accusing Mirhawk of just isn't accurate. You're saying he's acting inconsistent with respect to his reads, but I don't see that. He had Skybird as a scum read from early on D1, and never came off that. The one post you quoted, where Mirhawk agrees (with FS) that your point against Skybird for unvoting after pistacion was mod-cleared wasn't really a point, doesn't change that. He can think that's not a valid point without it being a defense of Skybird and I didn't read it that way. It's more an expression of skepticism against you, which is something else he's been consistent on.

He also hasn't flipped-flopped on Cakez as far as I can tell. He's called Cakez scum for a long time and that hasn't changed. And I guess I'm more sympathetic than you are to the idea that he could lose enthusiasm for the vote when no one else seemed interested in voting the same way. I also don't read Mirhawk's post as him "immediately believing" TPP's claim about Cakez. I read it as "why would you say this (TPP) if what you are saying is true..." He's criticizing TPP (and not simply believing him). I also think the way TPP acted around that whole "reveal" was strange. The post asking Cakez not to vig him looked mostly like a joke.

Aside from that, I'm seeing suspicion for him not 100% accepting your claim at face value, which is kind of ehh. I think he's being overly paranoid, but the fact is, you

could

be pulling some kind of scum-gambit, and I don't think he's seriously arguing that, just reminding people of it. So, you can get on him for that, but he's not wrong. And I'm not sure what advantage he gets as scum in that spot. And his posts around your fake-miller claim, which I also don't find scummy.

There's just not that much there. And I agree with a lot more of Mirhawk's posts than I disagree with, which probably isn't true for most of the people in this game.

Axel spends a lot of time defending Mirhawk this game.

Frankly, I think everything you thought was suspicious about Mirhawk applies like 2x over to SirCakez.

Pushing away from Mir on to cake

This is all off the top of my head as I don't feel like looking anything up.

The Pied Piper - Lied to everyone regarding the reason they couldn't disclose information, then later pretended in sequence that it wasn't suspicious/didn't happen/and that talking about it was rolefishing. I am in fact astounded and confused that pretty much NOBODY in town appears to give a shit about this as it's pretty cut and dried scummy behavior. It can't just be the scum as there can't be more then three or four of them in total, most of the town apparently decided that they wouldn't even acknowledge that this is even happening for ~reasons~. Obviously my read on them is scum, as I can't think of a reason for town to behave the way they did.

Friendless Seniors - Kinda split on Seniors. Their "I don't give a shit" attitude day one made me think they were town. I've kept to this all game as I feel that most of cases made on them for the whole game were pretty bad or pointless meta bullshit (or both). Their attitude over that last couple days has been pretty sketchy though. Them suddenly scumreading/voting me is pretty opportunistic/survivalist, which looks shitty but isn't necessarily something town wouldn't do. Their reads from their reread are terrible and fake as hell though. Knowing the flips we have now does add new information on a reread, but I barely interacted with any of the dead players until after page thirty. If anything I would think I should look more town because I started questioning Skybird immediately after she started playing. Also saying that Piper is scum if I flip town seems super convenient for tomorrow. I don't know, their town game has been fucking terrible, but they still don't strike me terribly as scum. I'd probably call them null.

SirCakez - I don't like players spending too much time talking about Meta, as I view that mostly as filler bullshit that people spam when they don't have real cases. I would like to point out though that my experience with Cakez makes me aware that he doesn't have to spend most of day one with his thumb up his butt doing nothing, especially not pushing the scumread he spent the whole friggin day voting for. Have any of you paid attention to his posts today, he's spent most of the day coasting/saying Mirhawks scum/complaining about other players. He doesn't even seem to care that I'm about to be lynched, he probably couldn't act more apathetic then he is. 10/10 scum, I'm disappointed in everyone who doesn't see this.


Axelrod - I've ignored Axel all game and don't really have much of on opinion on them. I find them townish, but otherwise I don't really have anything to say about them.

Mirhawk - Mirhawk strikes me as super frustrated in general in how despite repeatedly laying out solid cases on his scumreads, the cases he makes are universally ignored by most of town. Seriously screw all you guys.

dramonic - Doesn't say a lot, but is consistent in his reads. Engaged much more in day three and whenever he does make substantial posts they seem pretty good. Other then the fact that I wish he offered his opinions more freely instead of waiting for people to press him on them I find him fairly townish.

Dwlee99 - I like Dwlee's posting. Despite the fact that he's been going hard on Piper for the whole game, he still seem connected with the goings-ons of the rest of the town. I wish he would branch out a little to look for Pipers partners, but aside from that I think he's pretty town.

Marquis - Marquis is probably town. There isn't really much else to say. I would still be tickled pink if he got rolecoped, as that would heave us with four confirmed townies instead of one. I also like his recent case on me. Don't get me wrong, it sucked tons, but it still makes him the only person on my wagon who is trying to provide any kind of reason as to why I should be lynched. It also means he actually is looking for scum. which a lot of other players aren't. I'm still moderately peeved with him for torpedoing two of my scumreads today, but it's for a good cause so it's fine I guess. Also after my flip it should be apparent that I TOTALLY CALLED THAT MILLER GAMBIT AND IN YOUR FACE EVERYONE WHO SAID I DIDN'T.

Flubbernugget - I didn't really have much of an opinion on Tictac, though I did think her posting made sense for a person who was apparently spending the entire game making catchup posts. Flubber is unfortunately exactly the same. I think his posting is townish and decent in general, but god I wish he would just catch up already.

Cerberus v666 - I'm mildly scumreading Cerberus though I'm not entirely sure why. I know I've seen a lot of posts from him that I don't really like very much, but he's just never seemed like an important enough read to spend any time getting a more concrete one. He's been pushing for my lynch for a really long time, but somehow despite that I still don't really understand why he thinks I'm scum. I know he's posted a couple cases on me, but I found them pretty weak and I'm seeming to remember that I poked them full of holes. Despite the pokes though he's never really seemed to think about anything I've said, and I don't particularly like how he's basically deathtunneled me for the whole game without doing much of anything else. So a mild scumread

Malakittens - I don't really have much to say about Mala other then the fact that I don't really like the way she's treated this game. I know she's really busy and all, but she's not even making a effort to say things like "Ill have more time this weekend", or "I am reading along but don't have much to say" or "I like the push on x, I'll vote with it". I'm not expecting her to make cases or anything, but I am expecting somewhat more involvement. This doesn't really matter as she's apparently cop cleared, but it still bugs me. The fact that my impression of her is that she isn't a bad player makes this even worse for me, I really do wish she was more involved.

itlepip - Pip, oh pip. I tried for a long time to preserve my Beeboy read, but it's pretty much gone now. I'm going to start by saying that I really hope you are scum pip, Because if this is your towngame then I don't really know what to say. Pip entered the game with three scumreads (I think the first two were Axel and Podo, but I can't really remember) the last was me. I was by far the weakest read, with his opinion on me not even being scum but rather "mirhawk made some posts I don't really like" or something like that. He voted and engaged both of his other "actual scumreads but got solidly shut down on both of them almost immediately after voting for them. Then seeing as how I was the only one he had left he immediately switched me to "OMG mirhawk is so super scum" for no apparent reason. He's been hardpushing me ever since without really doing much of anything to justify this position. He asked me a couple pages ago why I thought Piper where Piper lied (which is surprising as that makes him the only one of you mooks other then Ogre to show even the slightest interest in talking to me about it), but then in a bizarre twist completely ignored my response to him where I told him where the relevant posts were. He keeps saying things like I'm confirmed as scum, or if I flip town the game is bastard, but is providing absolutely so indication as to where this ironclad certainty on his read came from. Honestly I'm labeling him as scum, because I can't imagine he's this bad at being town.

pistachi0n - Pistachion is confirmed town, but isn't trying very hard to find scum.

True Ogre - True Ogre is easily the townist player in the game. He's engaging all the major wagons, he's looking for scum, and the points he brings up feel genuine, as in he actually want's to know the answers.

davesaz - Dave honestly needs to try harder. If he wasn't confirmed by Marquis I would seriously still be scumreading him. He isn't really doing anything that would help town at all. I have no idea what his reads are because he never pushes anyone, but rather has some wagons that he'll vote on because they aren't "too bad". He occasionally makes observations that I feel are pretty decent, but it's too bad he doesn't do anything with them.

podoboq - I have a mild townread on Podo. He makes some good posts, and some not so good posts, but no really bad ones. I feel like he is actually trying to look for scum which instantly elevates him above some of the other players in the game. I don't think I agree with all his reads, but whatever, he's fine.

Basically
Person-content
Person-content
Axel- nothing
Person-content
Person-IC
This is too easy.

eeh, I'm not really feeling axel.

Not feeling the wagon on the null read you haven’t sorted yet with 5000 posts :P

Axelrod - I've ignored Axel all game and don't really have much of on opinion on them. I find them townish, but otherwise I don't really have anything to say about them.

This is really bad
There's no way you just have Axel as "sorta townish, nothing else to say"

And yet I do.

I think in four hundred posts I've directed like one of them to Axel.

But if you want to peruse my posts to see if there's something that indicates I have more thoughts on him be my guest.

Obviously missing the point. Having 5000 posts into a game and a null-town read with no analysis is really bad on a fairly active slot. Mirhawk has never this game given any real thought to Axel’s alignment.

Nah, I just don't see the will in town to change to a different target. Realistically speaking the other options are Axel, Piper, Seniors, and Cakez.

The Axel wagon is too new and simply doesn't have enough people who think he's scum, not to mention there's not really enough time for those that think he is scum to convince anyone else.

Piper had its heyday already. There's a few people who support it, but if there was any real amount of will for this wagon I would have found it days ago.

Seniors has been flirting with death all game, and I don't really see a whole bunch of people jumping back on them now.

There's actually at best only like four people who support a Cakez wagon, believe me I tried.

I'm going to flip town, but like you said I'm a VT so its not a huge loss.

Axel is not going to get lynched because his wagon is new. Also you’d think that Mirhawk would throw in “I think he’s town’ or something here but he doesn’t/

I've found scum and I've spent days throat stuffing. The problem is that nobody cares about the people I think are scum.

I don't think Axel is scum, and Hiplop's recent posts have been town as fuck so I'm not going there.

I've been arguing against shitty bullshit garbage cases on me all goddamn game. Apparently town is okay with lynching me despite there being NO FUCKING CASE ON ME AT ALL SO FUCK ALL THE TOWN WHO HAVEN'T BOTHERED EVEN ASKING ANYONE WHY THEY'RE VOTING ME.

What are you honestly expecting me to say here Ogre.

More have no read on Axel but its not scum.

can we PLEASE lynch axel OR piper.

Pick one.

And what the fuck is he doing going from this to "IT'S NOT A 1V1 BETWEEN US! I KNOW YOU WANT TO MAKE IT ONE BUT IT'S NOT BECAUSE I HAVE MORE SUBSTANTIAL READS HUEHUEHUEHUEHE"? Axel has 4 votes. I have 2. Dramonic would vote us, FS would move over, Mirhawk would move over, there's plenty of paranoia abounding on us from all angles. Why isn't he pushing us today when this is, again, the best opportunity to get us lynched?

Because he knows that if we 1v1, he will die, and he knows that there is no way in hell that we get mislynched after he flips scum.

Why would I move to Axel? If I'm not willing to move to seniors who I currently have as null, why would I move to Axel who I'm townreading?

For what reason????

Unvote

Vote: Friendless Seniors

Better than Mirhawk.

Lolll

[itlepip]

I reconsider reads, and when I did that with you you were scummier ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[itlepip]

Whenever I have iso dived you, so I've done it twice after catchup

[itlepip]

I think Dwlee is acting too incompetent to be scum but enough to maybe look at a policy/vig at some point.

[itlepip]

no. Good try though.

[itlepip]

no. Good try though.

Basically you are just being lazy and saying that any vote against someone that is scumreading you is OMGUS. Mirhawk's is OMGUS because the reason he gives for scumreading me is that I am scumreading him. TPP's, whether valid or not, is based on interactions with flipped scum.

[itlepip]

Why are you sus of me?

[itlepip]

Why are you sus of me?

Haven't tried to lynch me yet, in spite of being an easier target than ever before due to my lack of engagement. Quick apparent acceptance of my slot as town. That could be chalked up to you only ever seeing me play as town, so you feel you have a good grasp on what to expect from my posts tonally/I'm matching those expectations,but given the fact that there ARE clear differences between my play here and my play in other games with you, in terms of productivity and engagement at least, I would expect a much higher degree of suspicion on your part.

I'VE EXPLAINED THIS. First even if I had concerns about your slot I wouldn't mention them until Mir got lynched because that slot needs death.

Second you've had obvtown posts. Which I've gone over before.

[itlepip]

ugh I really want to lynch shotty but

ugh

He replaced Talah though...

[itlepip]

Build a case as to how in whatever's name Mirhawk could be town.

[itlepip]

Prod dodge / read list:

Def Town:

Marquis

- Pretty self explanatory. I also happen to have experience with her play, and she's playing basically exactly the same way she did last time we were town together. Not lynching.

dramonic

- I didn't want to have to spell this out, but look at the voting pattern. Dramonic voted Axelrod before it was cool, when Axelrod had absolutely no pressure on him, for basically the entire game. Dramonic is town.

Have you read my iso? I have always been scumreading Axel.

pistachion

- duh

Mala

- Marquis has an innocent on her.

Pretty towny:

Cakez

- A lot of gut. A lot of consistency with how he played as town in our previous game. A lot of him having good reads. A lot of players I trust trusting him. I think Cakez is good.

shotty

- Don't like his opinions on the current game state, but I liked TO/Talah a lot. Would like to have him back. :-(

Flubbernugget

- I don't know why, but I like him. I was ready to lynch Tictac, but I like Flubber's claim, and his contributing today has been worthy of keeping him around, as opposed to some other players in the game.

Pretty scummy:

dwlee

- HEY, HOW ABOUT BUILDING A CASE INSTEAD OF SHOUTING INTO THE VOID, which is basically what I'm doing by trying to speak any amount of reason to you.

<3 this

itlepip

- Kinda just tired of this slot, to be honest. Beeboy was a whole lot of wifom, death tunneling someone who is now confirmed town. Itlepip protected dramonic for absolutely no reason other than "I think he's town, lol," then backed off of voting me when I was adamant about my read, but didn't actually vote for dramonic, or explain why he stopped voting for me. Like, I was 1v1ing dramonic, itlepip picked a side, then just jumped out of the middle of it when I gave him shit for it. Dramonic and I were town v town, and itlepip probably just realized he should leave me alone and let me fight rather than egg anything on, because it was bringing attention to him. But that's just how I'm reading it. If anyone forgets this exchange, and would like me to find the post number where it starts, I'll go digging.

I don't super remember the 1v1 between you and Dram, don't think I ever it as such at all. Check my original readlist I liked Dram and didn't like you but neither of which had anything to do with you guys scumreading each other which I couldn't care about. However while I was pushing you a bunch of people that I were sure were town were jumping up and down and calling you obvTown so I sheeped them off of you. Not a huge fan of your slot at all and I don't believe this scumread as genuine.

I don't even know what to think any more:

TPP

- If I wanted to read a book, I would have finished Game of Thrones by now.

NAI is scummy? WTF is this

Cerberus

- All of his votes in the game have been for Mirhawk, which I find really weird. I don't know how to read this slot basically at all. I intend to ISO it at some point.

It means that Mirhawk flipping will be really useful in sorting Cerb. Still think Cerb is town even though him yelling 'OMG how could pip ever think I was town' is making me question that because how is that ever an actual point.

I trust Marquis:

Mirhawk

- Mirhawk seems pretty genuine to me here, and is reminding me a lot of FS. I also like the basic villager claim, because I'm certain we have some, and he's the first to claim basic, rather than some random power role. So far, the two scum have had weird modifiers. Mirhawk could safely claim that, or anything else that Rob provided as a fake claim, but instead he just says basic. I don't think that's farfetched.

WHAT IS THIS? Are you just not reading this game? I mean wtf. Basically half the town, including Marquis, just got up and decided Pip feels like a good lynch with no iso or case, just wtf why not?

I'm voting Mirhawk because I trust Marquis to read him better than I would, so I'm basically sheeping. If it were up to me, I'd lynch dwlee or itlepip here, or remove TPP and just call it a day.

[itlepip]

Tpp, Im sorry as well

that you rolled scum

can you try not being an ass? That would be nice.

[itlepip]

I'm not being an ass. What the hell?

"Hey this game is grating on me and some people are making an otherwise long game into something a little painful for me"
"yeah you wouldn't feel shitty if you weren't scum lolloloololoolololol"

.

[itlepip]

I told you: Mirhawk is town

WHY prove it besides lol I'm dlwleel my RNG generator said that Mir is town guyzzz sheep me plssssss tpp so scumzzz comez on guyzz y u no shep dis logic doh

[itlepip]

I swear if one person accuses me of rnging my reads or saying I just randomly come up with them. Read college mafia. Read college mafia, my reads were on point.

Guess what? random reads can be right sometimes.

[itlepip]

Okay so so far the only read you've been right is on FS, though you have like 0 reads in your iso. In the last 2 days I haven't seen a single reason to actually vote TPP from you at all, just saying that over and over again. You are hard protecting someone I think is scum and haven't any evidence that you are actually keeping up with game or have insights.

[itlepip]

Holy fucking shit are we doing this again, remember how well this worked with FS? Stop Mling and forcing to vigi to hit in order for us to keep on winning this game.

[itlepip]

and the scum that isn't flipped...

[itlepip]

Mirhawk's interactins with Dwlee are so bad he might actually be town.

[itlepip]

Mirhawk's interactins with Dwlee are so bad he might actually be town.

And
VOTE: itle
Nice fence sitting and assuming mir will be todays lynch and setting your self up to get town points and told a sos

WTF! First of all if I actually don't support the mir wagon there is absolutely no way it would ever be the lynch today. Second its waaaaayyyy to late for me to turn around and try to get townpoints for a lynch I've pushed the entire game. Third Podo is the obvious lynch today not Mirhawk. Finally the statement 'seems to scummy to be scum' is not in any way a real defense of Mirhawk. There is no way that I'll be satisfied with Mirhawk endgaming so I'll probably end up pushing again.

The point of that post was to say that Mirhawk's interactions with Dwlee are horrible, but I'm not sure if scum actually let their interactions become that bad so I'll have to reread.


Actually thinking about it Podo might be cleared since there was the whole tracker thing between them.

Also I claim bodyguard so nice try :P

[itlepip]

TPP--probably town because of the Dwlee flip
Cakez--prolly town
Mirhawk--scum lean
dramonic--I don't know anymore
Marquis--town because of cop claim
Flubber--??
Cerb--prolly town
Mala--confirmed town by Marquis
itlpip-BG
me--no
shotty--supposedly the towniest slot according to Cerb, but there are good fakers--TO did the thing where he said he had a result that said I wasn't a miller, and his interactions with the Dwlee slot seem town reading through TO's iso again--ok, we can hold offon this because of his legacy--why the TPP vote though????
podo--??

[itlepip]

VOTE: Dram

[itlepip]

vote: dramonic

yeah, fuck that noise.
Let's just finish this and give tpp the win since clearly that's what we wanna do.

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[itlepip]

but you are on track and voting for scum, you're doing great!

[itlepip]

current endgaming stuff

The Pied Piper lynched
SirCakez NKed
Mirhawk lynched
dramonic vig tonight
Marquis
Flubbernugget lynched in f3
Cerberus v666 lynched
Malakittens Nked
itlepip Nked
pistachi0n Nked
drmyshottyizsik
podoboq lynch today

[itlepip]

Shit that was a draft. Also TPP we don't have daytalk so I have to do it here :(

Also, why on earth would scum shoot you instead of marquis.

I will guarding one of the confirmed every night. So either scum can not shoot confirmed town or I will flip.

The Pied Piper lynched d7
SirCakez NKed n8
Mirhawk lynched d6
dramonic vig tonight d5
Marquis-this is prolly town
Flubbernugget lynched in f3-one I'm least sure about even through decent play at points.
Cerberus v666 lynched 8
Malakittens Nked n7
itlepip Nked n5(basically just the night before mala/pistachion)
pistachi0n Nked n6
drmyshottyizsik-town by TO
podoboq lynch today

So here's the thing. 1 vigi shot because worst case, I probably wouldn't ever assume more than 2 or so. In order for this game to actually be super easy we would need to agree on 6 absolute town

[itlepip]

VOTE: Dram

[itlepip]

VOTE: Dram

wait I was already voting this I think? Fuck I'm tired sorry guys. w/e

[itlepip]

I'm from mary poppins. (so many characters in that...)

[itlepip]

so just a doctor.

[itlepip]

SK neighborizer? Have they claimed flavor yet?

[itlepip]

I actually kind of like the idea of vigi not claiming today since with two shots on people outside of the auto circle we get an extra lynch, but since I could be RBed and he might be SK that reasoning is weaker.

[itlepip]

shotty, cakez is still town. He definitely to wait to claim until tomorrow.

[itlepip]

hi guys, let's lynch someone soon k?

[itlepip]

I'm bored.