A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Ranger]

Yo.

Ranger (sorry you replaced into a scum slot)

Not this time, actually, which is going to be a pain.

This is a

large

large game. I generally don't play large themes, especially not ones with 20+ players in them. It's hard to read everything and keep track of every player. But I decided to help out anyway. I actually

was

hoping I'd get scum, since it doesn't require as much effort: I can just throw out some random reads, then never bother to do any work after that. Unfortunately, as town, I don't have that luxury. I have a reputation to maintain, after all; my N1 nightkill rate in Large Themes as town is currently sitting at 100%!

It'll take me a little while to read 50 pages, though.

[Ranger]

I saw my slot's vote is on SirCakez: a decent spot to be on while I'm catching up, since it's always fun to vote SirCakez.
I have a better idea, though.

VOTE: Friendless Seniors.
Errant, have we

ever

been the

same

alignment? I'm trying to think and I can't recall so much as once.

[Ranger]

(Don't answer that. I know the answer's yes; three times if you include marathons. Still...you seem to draw my opposite a disproportionately large number of times.)

[Ranger]

Nevermind the fun.
VOTE: SirCakez.
I'll leave the vote where it was.
You're actually a

wagon

(didn't catch that detail before), not sure I'm comfortable with

that

, especially since podoboq posts don't give me warm fuzzy feelings when I catch glimpses of them.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird}
{dramonic, Axelrod}
{beeboy, Friendless Seniors}
{Spiffeh}

One.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird}
{dramonic, Axelrod}
{Sakura Hana}
{beeboy, Friendless Seniors. The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh}

Two.

[Ranger]

ew she has me and seniors as scum together. (not to mention me as scum)
While also having spiffeh as number 1 scum.

Nope! Bottom of a list is not necessarily scum.

I'll tell you the list isn't inverted (that'd be even worse :P), but that doesn't mean bottom or near-bottom is scum.
Just least-town.

The tiers there were approximately {untouchable town, townread, looks-good-but-need-more, slight townread, minor townread, nulltown, null, nullscum}.
This is why I don't assign labels to my tiers.

[Ranger]

Because I'm kinda calling BS on ANY read on me from you considering my first post in the game wasn't until page 34, and my relative silence in recent pages...

Directly copy-pasting my notepad file I use, you get this:

Pied Piper = Nacho/Plot
Friendless Seniors = hiplop/Errant
Swordsmith = Ranger
Cerberus v666 = millar13
The Wrong Lynch = Mala/goodmorning



{Tammy, SirCakez}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird}
{dramonic, Axelrod}
{Sakura Hana}
{beeboy, Friendless Seniors. The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh}

I take note of who is who: hydra identities, replacements, and such, and then work my way from that. You didn't post, but millar13, your slot, did.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird, SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, davesaz}
{Sakura Hana, Mirhawk, beeboy}
{Friendless Seniors. The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh}

Three.

[Ranger]

Looks good but needs more from RVS

I'll just stop you there and answer "yes".
If you need a reminder as to

why

, you're talking to

Ranger

. About

the RVS

. That should sufficiently answer your call.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird, SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana}
{Mirhawk, davesaz}
{Friendless Seniors, The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh}

Four.

[Ranger]

Ranger this isn't working for you I suggest you change tactics

Patience.

If you're town you'll show it in the pages I've yet to read, but I'm calling it as I see it when progressing.

Admittedly? I don't know how well my tactic will work as a replacement in a large theme. The only time I was town in a Large was Metal Gear Solid V, which was both smaller and from the beginning. I'd actually be surprised if my reads were so much as

half

as accurate as they were that game. (Then again, half as accurate as that game's still 50%. :P) However, the tactic's worked in every game type so far more than it hasn't, and if this game isn't multiball, then my accuracy should be higher since I'm a better scumhunter in single-ball, so I have no reason to change strategies at this time.

We had this argument in Suikoden didn't we?

More or less. I'm getting reads. You can ask for reasons if you'd like, though I'd prefer you wait until after I've caught up before doing so, since granting the request would eat up extra time and I only have a little over an hour right now before I have to leave.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird, SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz}
{Mirhawk}
{Friendless Seniors, The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh}
{True Ogre}

Five.

[Ranger]

VOTE: SirCakez
Why not?

OhmygodIcan'tbelievemyslotactuallysaidthisyouhavenoideahowmuchI'mlaughingrightnow.

Speaking of,
UNVOTE: SirCakez.
While it's all nice fun and games to leave a harmless vote up, SirCakez

is

town, so I should find someone else to vote. I didn't catch any here!
VOTE: True Ogre.
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz}
{Mirhawk}
{Friendless Seniors, The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh, tictac}
{True Ogre}

No, I won't update you 51 times, I swear it'll slow down. Things just change a

lot

in the early pages. Later it could take 20 pages for any notable change to happen for instance. But for now...six.

[Ranger]

Seniors read progression on Ranger sucks

Yeah, that doesn't look so good for Errant. Kinda does look like scum-Errant from a superficial-one-post-only-judgment, based mainly on the notion of, "well what Errant's saying

sounds

good and maybe even reasonable but still doesn't feel quite right and even has this thing in it which makes no sense", which is usually how I identify Errant as scum. It's just the one post, though, so I'll need more before I vote there.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz}
{Mirhawk}
{The Wrong Lynch, tictac}
{Spiffeh, Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

8.
If Spiffeh is supposed to be obvtown, so far, it's not showing.

[Ranger]

Ranger let's lynch tictac instead.

I actually think Friendless Seniors looks worse than tictac now.

Not opposed, though. Just think it's possible (albeit not very likely) tictac could be town.

[Ranger]

Spiff is prob town here even if he can't see obv scum.

That's the problem.

Spiffeh

does

see obvscum in my experience.

I speak as the obvscum he caught in Mafiaception.

Tonality-wise, though, page nine does give a glimpse of what

might

be a town-Spiffeh.

That gets me to this:
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz}
{Mirhawk}
{Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, tictac}
{Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

[Ranger]

337 is enough.
VOTE: Friendless Seniors.

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana, davesaz}
{Mirhawk}
{Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, tictac}
{Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

[Ranger]

Ranger I defended you like all game in Mafiaception lol

I thought you were one of the main pushers? You, hiplop, Gorkington, and Fro99er are all I really remember from that game, and I remembered you all disagreeing on some important things but agreeing on literally everything else outside of paranoia and I thought that was among them. I suppose I could have misremembered, though.

I feel like there are going to be gaps in our interaction until you catch up

I read the current stuff as I see it, which is after I make a post. Like now.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
{dramonic, Axelrod, davesaz}
{Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, tictac, Mirhawk}
{Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

Should waited until the

end

of page 14 before making a list.

[Ranger]

357 is dead on the money, but I'd like to add: hiplop's naked vote on pistachi0n served the same purpose. Everyone else who voted pistachi0n looked like they genuinely felt like they were pursuing a scumclaim, but hiplop gave absolutely nothing. (Yes I can tell it was hiplop.) And Mirhawk gave 324.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
{dramonic, Axelrod, davesaz}
{Spiffeh, The Wrong Lynch}
{tictac, Mirhawk}
{Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

398 also feels like a scum-Errant for what it's worth.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
{dramonic, Axelrod, davesaz}
{Spiffeh, The Wrong Lynch}
{tictac, True Ogre}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

Same page, reordering accuracy. This is a more accurate reads list.

[Ranger]

475, minus beeboy (as Spiffeh said, beeboy's town), plus Mirhawk (but

not

pistachi0n), is basically where I'm at now if you couldn't tell.

Unfortunately, I have to leave soon (just enough time to read the current posts), so I'll leave with half the game finished, and a reads list currently looking like this:
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
{dramonic, Axelrod, davesaz}
{The Wrong Lynch, podoboq, Spiffeh}
{tictac, True Ogre}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

Cerberus is honestly a rogue tier. He could be placed in any tier above tictac that's not the untouchable-town tier right now, and it wouldn't be out of place honestly.
Other than that, the tiers are approximately: {Untouchable, decently-strong town, town, mostly-town, town-with-minor-reserves, probably scum, most definitely scum}.

[Ranger]

I really like this reads progression you are doing, but it would be even better with a little more commentary on what is making people shift around for you.

Well if you want it, just ask.

For instance, if you asked, "what changed between pages 6 and 8?", then I would answer to the best of my ability, and then give bonus cred by further saying what the

current

read is.

I'm not gonna spend that time by default.

Omg Ranger's reads are pretty fantastic.

Well, I

do

have a reputation to uphold!

[Ranger]

can someone explain why they feel that way?

Not really, but I actually feel empathy for you at that point. Tammy's posting did feel like a betrayal, but there's no tangible reason for why. She's not scum, so maybe it's her pushing someone who is also clearly not scum? (beeboy.)
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
{dramonic, davesaz, podoboq}
{The Wrong Lynch, Spiffeh, Axelrod}
{True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

[Ranger]

875 means I can

finally

stop orphaning my Cerb read.
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq, Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz, Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, Axelrod, dramonic}
{True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

Most of these are reads getting stronger, but True Ogre looks more town (still more likely to be scum than not, just less likely scum than before) and read atrophy is why Axelrod and dramonic have dropped a few pegs.

[Ranger]

Ugh I feel like I have too many townreads and someone is dogging me

This is one of the reasons dramonic and Axelrod have dropped in my reads.

Another being I hated Axel's reads when he did give them.

Speaking of which,
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq, Sakura Hana}
{SnarkySnowman}
{davesaz, Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, dramonic}
{Axelrod}
{True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}
Now the orphaned read is SnarkySnowman. My stance on Cerb now applies to him; he could be anywhere above Axelrod that's below untouchable.

[Ranger]

EP why do you always sound fake to me it makes me sad

(Psst, it's because Errant actually is fake this game.)

[Ranger]

WAIT this means Cheet can join omg

I'm sorry, I'm not Cheetory. :(
You'll have to live with someone who's probably not quite that good but is still at least decent.

[Ranger]

Open 623
That game sucked >.<

I still owe you BIG time for that. <3

I don't think there were ever more than 4-5 votes on Seniors at a time, but a lot more people were willing to vote them. If Seniors are scum, I'd look for more scum in the people who were willing to vote without voting.

This is true, though I'd note it also applies to Mirhawk.

[Ranger]

By the way, will switch to Mirhawk if there's more votes there, if that wasn't obvious.

Around now is probably a good time to begin consolidating our lynch. It should be one of those two, but we need to make up our minds as to which.

[Ranger]

There were three scum replace outs in a Mini Theme I just finished and no town replace outs.

My mini normal also had three scum replace-outs and no town replace-outs, too. Incidentally, Mirhawk replaced in.

I have deliberately been avoiding comparing this game to that game because it's a whopping sample size of one, but for what it's worth, there are some strong elements of the same game Mirhawk had there in here.

[Ranger]

Caught up with the thread.

1309 is my final reads list.

Let's get to working.

[Ranger]

Ranger, how confident are you in your ability to read newbies?

Case-by-case. In tictac's case, I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong, but I'm not expecting I am. For Axelrod, my read's shifted a ton so obviously the answer there is I don't have a solid grip. But if any other player could be called new, then I'm not wrong on them.

Semi unrelatedly, why is Snarky so high, they are a minimalist like you but they are capable of doing more than literally nothing

Orphaned read: I don't really have any definitive place for SnarkySnowman, and am hoping to see more of him. I liked his early posting, which got him that high in the first place, and his posting since then hasn't made me think "could be scum", I just don't have anything right now that gives me an idea of where he'd be on the town scale, he's just somewhere in there.

[Ranger]

You've obviously done things in detail but I might like to bounce some sorting off you I think. I'm really hoping you're town here.

Ah, so you've played with me before. Good to know. I don't particularly need to know who you are (to be honest, I could probably guess but I don't see the point), but knowing you've played with me and have a positive impression of me is a nice fact to know.

And, yes. This is the peak of my town game. Maybe I've been more town than in this game in some prior game, but subjectively, I can tell you I've never

felt

more town than this game before. The question isn't whether I'm town or scum, it's whether I'm accurate-town or inaccurate-town.

[Ranger]

@Ranger: whose lynch and flip provides the most information for town? Is there another metric that we should use to determine who we lynch today?

Well, those two give the most information in my opinion.

For instance, a lynch on Mirhawk will elevate Amihan and pistachi0n to truly-confirmed-town, among others. It also would reveal many of the strong Mirhawk pushers as being town. (I'd have to skim to name them all and why they're not bussing.)

A lynch on Friendless Seniors would serve a similarly-informative purpose.

They give the most information, they have the highest chance of flipping scum, they are the two leading wagons. For day one, you literally could not ask for better lynches.

[Ranger]

Aren't you supposed to be on my wagon?

I was waiting for a votecount. I have one. If the votes haven't changed since then, I will move to you. If they have, then I'll see who they have moved onto and who was moving and evaluate from there.

I'd start her in the middle and will need to see post-catchup activity to determine whether this is a strong town entrance or a masterful scum one.

Correction: post-catchup content. Activity is universal across all games. Once or twice a day, I will come in, make a series of posts catching up, and leave again. Content is not. Though frankly I haven't found much a difference between my scum and town games. I'm sure it exists, I just haven't identified it personally. The closest is a slight tell, but even that's not absolute.

I think Ranger is being manipulative to get who she wants lynched.

If by manipulative, you mean being completely and entirely blunt and unsubtle about who I want lynched and pushing them hard? Then, yes. There is zero ambiguity; I want one of {Mirhawk, Friendless Seniors} lynched.

She's slotted every person into what appears to be a fairly solid read with little to no justification for almost any of them.

Nobody asked me to.

Oh and shes scumreading my meta when she hasn't seen my town game.

To the contrary. I said I was specifically avoiding using it.

Nothing about her catchup seems "fake" to me except the fact that the two biggest wagons are also her two strongest scum reads. That does read as contrived, but it could also simply mean that those two slots have done a number of things which are objectively scummy/anti-town, or that she was swayed by the arguments people have made about those slots which she read as she was catching up.

We also had this argument in Suikoden if you recall. You thought it was extremely suspicious for me to hop "conveniently" onto LQ after others had already done so. My statement now is just as true as then: I don't give any regard to how large a wagon on a person is. Scum are scum. I vote for scum, I find scum. It doesn't matter if other people have also found that same scum, I still from my own reasons have found the scum and will vote them. I could be a vanity vote, I could be the hammer vote, I don't care where I am on the wagon because it's irrelevant.

[Ranger]

I am scumreading the hell out of Ranger's entrance and progression.

Well tough.

I am town.

Enough people in this game can tell I am town.

A scumflip or two will make it obvious I am town.

So you'll have to deal with it.

Ranger could likely duplicate that particular sort of entrance as scum, so the entrance as a whole is null.

I wouldn't say that.

As I read the game, there was a clear progression in my reads. I gave you the exact page I was on when making a list, sometimes the exact post. I even had changes on the same page at least once if not twice. It's ridiculously easy from that to, if you go back and look, then extrapolate, "okay, what was on that page?" and figure out what caused the change, and I generally have assumed the people who townread it did this.

What did you hate about them?

904 felt all kinds of wrong. In particular, Mirhawk being among the likes felt out of place. Your middle-tier also felt out of whack. Pistachi0n felt too low, for instance, and you didn't explain {Pied Piper, TrueOgre}. Pied Piper felt too low especially without explanation, and TrueOgre too high for that same reason. Between {True Ogre, tictac}, you also get players who look like they're the scumbuddies-in-an-otherwise-town-list, similar to Mirhawk above.

You also had five scumreads (Friendless Seniors in this case looks like the scum-in-otherwise-town list), and two almost-scumreads (Spiffeh, Skybird).

It was just a very ewww-inducing post.

[Ranger]

I did skim recent events too, and yeah, Ranger ending up with Seniors & Mir as top scum is sketchy.
Current preferences pist>Seniors>Ranger>Mir

>"Ranger was sketchy for having Seniors and Mirhawk as top scum"
>Has Seniors as a preferred lynch above me.
(Not to mention, Mirhawk below me but still in the lynchable list.)

[Ranger]

I don't really like the fact she put Tammy up at a top tier when she was absent for like pages at a time and before that her posts didn't really sway me either way.

Well for a start, I'd be an utter hypocrite to say "Tammy looks good, aside from how little I've seen her" when I literally have to rant about my activity

every game

because people

somehow

get the impression that posting must be done every couple of hours rather than a few times in a day.

It'd be a lie to say I actually had anything for the townread. I didn't. SirCakez, there's reason for. Amihan, the reason is obvious enough. beeboy I can read well enough and I can tell you his early enthusiasm is basically the exact OPPOSITE of his scum game, so there's reason for that. Cerberus made himself obvtown almost immediately after coming in. There's the slight concern that his posting is not as dominating as is the norm from him, but I have good reason to believe this is not alignment indicative from him so he's town.

But Tammy?

I just felt like she was town.
If I had a reason, I'd tell you it, but I honestly don't have one. I just think she's town, and that feeling is strong enough to put her on that untouchable tier. It's actually inconvenient. It is also, however, the truth.

[Ranger]

Why is there no justification for her Spiffeh and True Ogre scumreads, but there is for me and Seniors.

Because I'm pushing you and Seniors.

I haven't built a full case on you, nor a full case on Seniors (which would actually be much longer). I have given reasons. For Spiffeh, I did not give them because I held no interest in pushing him at the time. For True Ogre, I did not give them because I held no interest in pushing there: I

voted

TrueOgre, but I didn't push him.

Hey Ranger can you break down you initial Tammy read for me?

"Oh, Tammy posted. Town."

That's literally how it went. That exact thought process, snapping into place instantly. No reason, no logic, just instant townread.

What if you're wrong and they're town?

If I'm wrong I lynch the other.

If both are town, I fundamentally reevaluate my reads to check for the point in where I went wrong and I reread the game, rebuilding the list from scratch with the added information of the town flips, both lynch-wise and any existing kill-wise.

Of course, that's a mighty big "if". I really don't think I'm wrong on either. On my other scumreads, sure, on them, no. hiplop's posting looks like scum. This is VERY strongly Errantparabola's scumgame. I firmly believe Mirhawk is playing a scum game too.

VOTE: Mirhawk.

[Ranger]

Why was your initial read on me scum if my enthusiasm levels where highest at the start of the game?

Again, my read on you was

not

scum. We've been over this. Bottom of the list is not necessarily scum. It's just least-town. At the time, your posting did not read as enthusiastic. You were posting a lot, but it wasn't until later that your posting became truly energetic, and that's the point you shot up in my town list. The first signs of this were on page three, and then by page four you had a definitive difference between your town game and scum game. You were also saying a lot of good things and making great pushes, strong, passionate pushes, rather than sitting in the background. This is what placed you there, more or less.

[Ranger]

Ranger you have no reason to understand my scum game.

Except yes I do?

I don't know what you're expecting me to say here. I say yes, you say no.

You might want this to keep going, but I think it should stop.

[Ranger]

Yes.

[Ranger]

What do you like about Cakez?

The short answer is: everything.

A longer answer would basically involve how most of what SirCakez has said resonating with me, and prior experience with SirCakez in the aforementioned White Flag game to have a better grip on him as a player to know he's less likely to be scum for the few factors I

would

see in him. I see absolutely nothing from him which could even remotely indicate him being scum. I see plenty of town thought going into his posts and a player whose thoughts match mine at the time I think things. Pushing Friendless Seniors when I did, pushing Mirhawk at the time I read Mirhawk, pushing you as scum earlier but then, at the same time I did, having that read weaken when your posting improved...lots of timing and tonality things like that.

I frankly think it would be easier and shorter for me to list the posts that

aren't

strongly town from SirCakez, because listing all the posts which are would be me effectively linking to nearly every post in his iso. He's by far my strongest townread; the only reason he's not above the others in that list is that there's no tier I can make above "Untouchable town".

What are your thoughts there?

Basically, all the right notes are there. Sakura Hana's posts are not consistent; they come in key areas, but every time Sakura starts posting, I'm left with a feeling which can more or less be summed up as: starts null, becomes town by the time she's finished her burst of posting. Never does she cross into scum, so the townread remains as-is or strengthened each time. This is in fact ironically the only consistent thing. At the beginning, I wasn't sure about Sakura, but by the end of the RVS, I felt more likely town than not. In the middle of the game, I wasn't sure especially since Sakura Hana wasn't posting as much as I thought she would be, but when she came in she looked town. And in more recent times, that trend has continued: her posting starts okay but doesn't give alignment-indicative content, but after a while, I warm up and see things which look definitively town.

So, not a top-tier townread, but a fairly strong townread all the same.

I read Mafiaception and her play is nothing like it was there.

That was my last Large Theme scumgame, but that would honestly be like looking at my last Large Theme towngame, which was my fourth game on-site...and that's going by sign-up time; by completion-time (as in, was killed via lynch or nightkill), it was either my first or second. I have eight completed scum games: Machina Mafia (oldest), Mafiaception (second-oldest), Blitz 1 (actually might be older than Mafiaception, definitely finished first), Blitz 7 (not indicative of my normal scum game), Open 628 (once I started playing, anyway; I let PC do the posting for the first half of the game and only started posting when we were the last scum alive), Blitz 25 (best solo-scum example of my play), Firebringer's Marathon (it was a marathon, though), and Mexican Standoff, which was multiball (so I was legitimately scumhunting).

Ranger why where your town reads so sticky? 4/4 of your town RVS reads stuck throughout your entire read list?

Easy. There's more town in the game than scum. Naturally, that means I'm going to have more town reads than scum reads, get them easier, and have them stick harder. Every player in that top tier earned their spot except Tammy. (No offense to Tammy, that's not a comment on your play, merely a statement on the nature of my read: town, but for absolutely no tangible reason.) I don't put players in the top-tier lightly. If I did, Pied Piper would already be in there, but because I have slight reservations about both heads (I

want

them to be town, I think they are town, but I'm not absolutely sure because there's the small doubt in there that their scumplay is competent enough where they could be scum), they haven't been promoted.

Effort doesn't equal alignment

It kind-of does, though. If I put no effort into a game, it's not alignment-indicative, sure. I'm lazy as both town and scum, putting as little as needed in. When I

do

put effort into a game, though, I am usually town.

Ranger's replace-in as scum in Open 627 was similar to this one, though much shorter.

My replace-in that game was nothing like this one. Did you notice that in that game, I made absolutely no effort to read every page? I read enough so that I could have some genuine reads, and then never read a single page more, because that extra effort was unnecessary: I had some real reads, I could fake the rest, I was sitting comfortably the whole game on those exact reads. I held onto reads that should have died (i.e., Almost50), and only reevaluated reads as necessitated by game content and sometimes not even then (again, Almost50). The one and only time I reevaluated a read was chilledtea, the day before lylo, and even then that was because my sincere scumread on Kop was proven wrong (ergo, game content proved me wrong), so I sincerely believed chilledtea was the mafia roleblocker. (Who was my top priority for lynching, as eliminating the mafia roleblocker would give us free reign.)

would never give a read on a single RVS only post, much less a top of the list read, and can't think of a town motivation to do so.

Counterpoint: I'm

Ranger

. I read players off of the RVS. You're correct. I usually have reasons. It's actually annoying me that I don't. Doesn't stop me from having obtained the read in the first place, though.

[Ranger]

I just remembered beeboy was scum in 628.

So, yes, beeboy.

I can say I have a good grip on your scum game, and that this is

definitely

not it. Your play is

nothing

like it was that game.

[Ranger]

How did Ranger suddenly become the town leader?

When I became super-confident in Mirhawk and Friendless Seniors.

Also by becoming obviously town.

[Ranger]

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq, Sakura Hana, davesaz}
{Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, dramonic, SnarkySnowman}
{Axelrod, True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

The relevant changes: davesaz has become more town, and I think I've found a tier SnarkySnowman best fits in: the nulltown one. Also merged the Axelrod and True Ogre tiers; it's both going in their respective directions. (It's best described as a nullscum tier.)

[Ranger]

Ok ya Seniors is still scum. Mirhawk has just kind of vanished too.
Still standing by Ranger townread, her entrance/catchup felt super natural and open.
Why is everyone fighting with Tammy she's obvtown stop.

This.

So, what your saying is you disagreed with the actual reads?

No, the placement of the reads felt wrong regardless of whether I agreed with them or not.

And you're bothered that I didn't give explanations for why everyone was where they were? I mean, that's a little ironic, isn't it?

The difference is, I never give reasons unless specifically asked. You were making a reads list about everyone, and randomly were giving reasons for some but not all, without such an excuse.

Ranger the only way you can redeem yourself is by voting seniors!

My stance there could not be any more unambiguous: I will vote for them if the wagons between {Mirhawk, Friendless Seniors} are comparable in size. Last votecount, that was not the case. I've seen votes since then, but I'm still fairly certain it's not the case. If I'm wrong, if the wagon has regained traction, then I will switch over. I don't care which of them is lynched. They're both scum. So as long as the lynch is one of them, we're good.

[Ranger]

Mind giving reasons for the relevant changes?

davesaz I've liked the posting of a lot, and I've liked the people townreading him and their reasons for townreading him, and largely disliked the people scumreading him and their reasons for scumreading him. So, a triple-hit: good posting, good interactions from good people, good interactions from bad people. The only way he could be better is to have more firm, solidly good interactions with bad people, and even there he's not half-bad. (E.g. his Friendless Seniors scumread.)

The townread would probably also get stronger if I did my research on davesaz and actually read my past games with him. I have to admit that even after having played with him at least half a dozen times, I don't have the firmest grip on his play. That's one of the reasons why he's not even higher. Basically, my stance on him is that if I could actually get a grip on him, he'd probably be in the top-tier, but since I don't yet have that grip on him, he isn't.

SnarkySnowman as a weak townread is because I do lean town on him, but the criticisms of him are valid: I have seen SnarkySnowman give

much

more than he has in this game. Heck, he gave more as a jester than he has given this game. What little he has given does look good, but he's making excuses for not giving more, and that's not something I've seen from him in his town games before. Basically, SnarkySnowman as town usually has passion, strong stances and reads, and while I see

evidence

of this, it is not nearly as obvious as usual, thus, nulltown.

Also, you don't think moving me up to whatever your top tier of townieness is isn't relevant!! :(

You've been there for a while? I moved you there in 1309.

[Ranger]

The last two games I played with Ranger she was scum and did reads similarly, but from what people who were defending her in machina said, this is pretty much what she does as far as reads starting from rvs.

I can give the story behind this if it'd interest you. Short version: how I was raised playing off-site; we refer back to the RVS (which is most of D1) constantly. I wouldn't normally give analysis until D4 or so, but I still compile reads with reasons in my head.

I meant that you deliberately left Skybird out of the lynch pool to try and make people think he wasn't a viable lynch.

Well, she

isn't

a viable lynch.

I won't be able to make a kind of determination of her reads list until we get a flip or two.

This is a fair method of reading me.

VOTE: Friendless Seniors.
I know, Mirhawk wagon was bigger, but the two wagons are now tied, so it's close enough.

[Ranger]

I think tictac might be scum

Well, most likely, yes.

But being realistic. Do you think a wagon there could work?

I don't. Not today, especially not this close to deadline.

If you want scum lynched, {Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk} is really the only pool you've got.

[Ranger]

Like especially since saying I caught her in Mafiaception is just wrong

And the scum motivation for lying about a past game, with easily-found facts, which multiple members of the current game were in, is...what, exactly?

I remembered the events of that game wrong. I did not bother to fact-check before making that statement, going purely off of my clearly-erroneous memory. Nothing more. I retracted the point once it became clear this was the case.

Snarky literally chimes in the post directly after someone asks him to be vigged
He is clearly paying attention to this game but is refusing to post
Yes he has a reputation for being lynchbait but in my experience he has not been THIS useless Day 1
He needs to be vigged tonight

I am not opposed to this.

[Ranger]

We have 4 days, we could move a new wagon.

Call me a cynic.

I'll believe it when I see it.

And then immediately join in disbelief.

[Ranger]

Like...do you think tictac can go from zero votes to 11 in that time?

I don't.

I'd be pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong, but I simply don't see the support materializing.

{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk} are the lynches with the greatest amount of support.
Friendless Seniors more so than Mirhawk.

[Ranger]

Also, I'm not fond of how ranger, after saying she was okay with either party being lynched, is the move which throws one wagon clearly ahead of the other, rather than doing as she said she would and moving if it seemed the consensus was a lynch on the other.

Uh, but throwing one wagon clearly ahead of the other is doing exactly that? It's having consensus on one over the other.

I'm fine with either being lynched. Friendless Seniors was gaining momentum. I switched. Friendless Seniors is the current leading lynch.

[Ranger]

Your vote is what caused the votes to swing one way.

And? The problem with this is...?

I want one of them dead. I don't care which. My vote caused things to sway towards Friendless Seniors. Which is a result that I want. You're saying there's a problem with that yet I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

SirCakez: Spiffeh, Tammy, Mirhawk, Friendless Seniors (4)

Hey, so you want to know what the scum counter-wagon to {Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk} is?
Right here. You have it.

[Ranger]

This vote combined with the posts before it (by seniors and others) has had me starting to see the case for seniors scum.

Can you switch your vote, then?

Skybird is not a viable lynch today.

Friendless Seniors on the other hand is.

[Ranger]

get your head out of your ass please.

Oh? What happened to your scumread on me? This is not how you talk to a scumread.

[Ranger]

I think EP and Hiplop may just be lynch bait imo.

You think a hydra of

Errantparabola

, a

Don Corelone nominee

, and

hiplop

, one of the strongest town players around and someone who is fairly good as town, is lynchbait?

No.

If it looks like scum. It is probably scum. Errant's posting on this page in particular is signature Errant-scumplay posting.

[Ranger]

I expected you to have fresh perspective and you didn't.

Not my fault people beat me to the punch because I wasn't in the game at the time. If others say what I want said before I have said it, there's not much I can do except say, "^this, totally this".

[Ranger]

Cakez and Ranger in particular are way too complacent with the most popular wagons today being their top two scum reads and doing no further digging beyond that

Am I supposed to be paranoid that people are scumreading my scumread? Am I supposed to be paranoid that a large number of people, most of whom I do not take issue with, are following me? I take issue with certain names on the wagon, e.g. tictac, but not to overwhelmingly alarming concern.

[Ranger]

Like, if these two are equally scummy in your eyes (these are your bottom tier guys), and one wagon is bigger than the other, why would you push the smaller one and make them tied?

The Mirhawk wagon was stalling and encountering resistance.

The Friendless Seniors wagon was growing and had greater support.

The wagons were approximately the same size without taking my vote into consideration.

So I switched.

I really don't see what's so hard to grasp.

Again, really not a fan of the way you are narrowing these choices.

I'm not getting lynched today. (Or ever for that matter.)
SirCakez is not getting lynched today. (Or ever for that matter.)
Skybird was never a viable wagon, contrary to what Mirhawk says.
If tictac were viable, I'd expect it to have materialized. Lo and behold, it has yet to.

Ergo, {Mirhawk, Friendless Seniors} are the only realistic candidates.
Mirhawk's wagon seems less viable, so that's why I'm pushing Friendless Seniors.

[Ranger]

one of the strongest town players around and someone who is fairly good as town,

*Fairly good as scum.

[Ranger]

Skybird was viable until you torpedoed it.

It really wasn't, but even if I'm wrong and it was?

I have no issue with this, given my strong Skybird townread. Torpedoing a lynch there could only do good.

[Ranger]

So you, by experience, cannot tell the difference between my town and scumposting unless, by your words, "something egregious slips through the cracks."

Yep! Exactly.

Literally your entire iso is basically that egregious posting, though.

Like. I have avoided quoting every post you've made and saying it's scum. But basically every post you've made is scum.

[Ranger]

hiplop if you are scum and I let you get away today I'll never forgive myself

Start regretting.

You literally could not be more wrong by pushing me/SirCakez/etc. over Friendless Seniors and Mirhawk.

[Ranger]

I think you are scum and the associations don't match up

Oh, the associations don't match up alright, but I'm not flipping scum. Not this game; this is literally as town as I can possibly get.
I'm also not getting lynched today.

[Ranger]

Look at the scum following the wagons everywhere. Seniors is doing the exact same thing.

SO much this.

Eternal shame on everyone who is not seeing this.

Mirhawk and Friendless Seniors are literally okay with lynching every single player who comes up as a lynch aside from each other.

[Ranger]

I have my own issues with FS that have been ignored by people pushing them in favor of bullshittier reasons

Many of which I have either quoted and stated were right, or which I didn't bother to quote and state were right but agreed with anyway.

I mean.

There's always going to be some points against a scum player that aren't valid for whatever various reasons.

But for the most part the points against the scum player are going to be true.

[Ranger]

This is still shitty

I repeat.

The scum motivation for lying about a past game, which has information easily found and searched, while

multiple players from that game

are playing, is...what, exactly?

I was going off of memory. My memory was wrong. That simple.

It looks like she made up a reason to town read me because scum reading me wasn't going over well/gaining any traction

I explained the exact reason behind my read on you. You started off looking bad. This was magnified by my wrong assumption that you would be better than that, a la me thinking you caught me in Mafiaception. Then, I caught wind of some posting which looked town from you. This posting got gradually stronger. And, when combined with the assumption being shown wrong, grew even stronger.

Cakez and Ranger in particular are way too complacent with the most popular wagons today being their top two scum reads and doing no further digging beyond that

And, again. I have many strong townreads. My main two scumreads are the main two wagons. Why

wouldn't

I be complacent? Because I desire absolute perfection in reads? That's a laughable idea. I may not assume I'm wrong, but I always expect to be wrong; I know perfect reads are nigh-impossible on D1 in a game of this size. I have good leads. I am pursuing said leads.

As things come up that are relevant, I am addressing them. But otherwise, I'm not going to waste my time on something that's not needed.

[Ranger]

I've liked Seniors' recent stuff (I'm as surprised as you are), but not quite enough to get me off the wagon.

I know saying this is shooting myself in the foot, but it'd be a lie otherwise: this is

partially

true for me as well. Some of their posting (namely, where they are looking at other players without any visible scum motivation behind doing so) looks town, but other parts (namely, where they continue looking at players which they have scum motivation for, e.g. me, SirCakez, maaaaaaaaaaaaybe tictac) still look like scum. I could go post-by-post to show bad/good/bad if you'd like, though I'd prefer not to. The overall conclusion from this however is that I still am voting them right now, because the two mostly counter-balance one another and the overall picture therefore remains looking "more likely scum than not".

[Ranger]

It looks like she made up a reason to town read me because scum reading me wasn't going over well/gaining any traction

I would also like to point out: my read on Spiffeh gradually went up.

This is true of many other players; why is Spiffeh any different?

I had beeboy in the same tier as Friendless Seniors initially.

That changed into a top townread.

I had Spiffeh at the bottom.
He did not stay there long.
He was moving up well before people called me out on the read. He started out at the bottom, was moved up as early as 1255 (admittedly by having someone looking more scum rather than him looking town, but it still counts!), and was by 1271 moving up. This did not stop there. He moved up as I read more of the thread and as my townread there grew stronger.

Which is simpler?

I'm scum that for some ungodly reason chooses SPIFFEH, of all people, to scumread, see it isn't working out, and instead of continuing to press there (which is my default scum meta, davesaz should know this from Mexican Standoff where I pushed Almost50 and Kuroi in particular after both had claimed PRs), decided that because it wasn't working out I should drop the read...

...Or, I'm town that was reading through the thread (which I clearly marked where I was), and I saw posts looking more and more town as I went?

[Ranger]

First off, let me say: thank you for linking to the pages you're asking about; it makes going to them much easier. <3

Why were dramonic and axel sharing a tier on page 1?

Basically, that was at the time a barely-above-null tier. Axelrod's song was amusing, though the mention of a serial killer raised my eyebrow as a detail which seems unusual for a town player to include. dramonic's vote was okay, but his posting did not send off strong town vibes.

Was Seniors so low because they suggested a policy lynch or for some other reason?

Actually, it was 13. Post 14 also wasn't the best, but 13 was the real "hmmmmmm..."-inducer.

Was Spiffeh on the bottom for claiming town or some other reason?

It was actually mainly because of the delayed RVS. I felt that Spiffeh, as town, would have been RVSing in his first post or not voting at all. His question to Cakez, and then the vote in the post after, read as being scum messing around in the RVS, and then thinking, "oh, crud, I probably should cast a vote, it might be suspicious if I don't". However, you're not wrong, either: it wasn't so much the declaration of being town as the bad gut feeling tonality-wise I got from

how

he declared it.

What was wrong with Mala's posting on page 2?

You linked to the post in question. Her enthusiasm did not feel sincere.

Is Sakura's postition primarily based on 38 or a different one?

My read on Sakura Hana at that point was weakly town, but in the position where she could have been scum faking things for town credit. So, it was mainly actually 44/48 (the posts which looked like potential scumhunting, yet also potentially being scum faking it), with 41 being the strongest town indicator at that point.

Is beeboy rising because he was making so much noise?

No. I liked 54. It felt lighthearted and yet still relevant. This was significantly amplified by 55, where the statement of him being serious felt like town naturally working their way out of the RVS. 58 continued the trend. Basically one of the only reasons he didn't rise even higher by that point is that the line "votes plz" didn't feel as sincere as the rest. Same for 62; it almost felt

too

lighthearted given his serious push. But I did really like 72. As for why beeboy jumped to the top: I loved 81 which was a valid point. (Speaking of which: Mirhawk is totally scum for deflecting pressure away from Friendless Seniors in 80.) What really got the read going was 85. The moment beeboy explained that, I knew he was town. The sheer

confidence

in 86 is

extremely

uncharacteristic of beeboy's scumgame (which, yes, I have seen multiple times), and rather in-character for him as town. 94 is one of the best possible explanations he could have possibly fielded. 98 was also a valid point, reflecting my thoughts at the time.

sakura goes up a notch for questioning a townread on her or something else?

That was in fact the reason, yes. I did not think it was a characteristic Sakura Hana would have as scum, and yet I'm

pretty

sure I've seen Sakura use that same question as town many times. That level of healthy paranoia to a townread felt good.

davesaz is falling a little due to other people being rearranged or some other reason?

I'm pretty sure it was me becoming more hesitant about davesaz, but looking at his posts on the page, I can't actually tell you why. If I had to guess, maybe 90, but I honestly don't know. Something he said pinged, but not enough to significantly demote him, just enough to push him slightly down. As for why davesaz went higher than Mirhawk, I absolutely

loved

100. The snark in there was awesome, it made me feel really good about him, and also made me question Mirhawk for the first time in the game, thus, why dave went up and Mirhawk went down.

Is True Ogre at the bottom because of how late their entrance was?

You have to understand that at the time, I did not know True Ogre was an alt. I saw someone who I was under the impression was inexperienced, posting in a way that looked incredibly odd. The second line in particular felt out of place, and also how they didn't vote Friendless Seniors in spite of liking the push. The rest of the post was also full of fence-sitting: no hard stance on Wrong Lynch, no hard stance on your slot, and random questions that didn't seem to have a purpose. So, in short: basically the entirety of 123, and how it seemingly had no content for a slot entering the game so late, so...kind-of, yes.

True Ogre vote because of their vote at the top of page 6 or?

Nah. I voted True Ogre to get a vote on the board that wasn't on a townread. At the time, he was at the bottom of my list, thus, vote.

Skybird is towner because of her questioning of Ogre or?

Everything about 128 was good. The answer, the depth, the counter-questioning, and the tone. It all felt incredibly town.

is tictac scummy for the things they're missing in 138 or the things they're noticing?

I hated the defense of Friendless Seniors in 138. The question to Ogre looked fake. Overall the post just gave bad gut feelings, too. The other posts did nothing to change my read either way. This lasted until 174: I thought it was an actually-good defense of his stances, and while I didn't

like

his stances, that post made it look as if his stances could actually come from town.

seniors a little scummier for errant's wall?

Oh,

hell

yes. I don't write anything into the alignments of others from that post, but it was pure scum Errant, through-and-through.

Because of his interactions with us or something else?

205 was actually the start, but yes, the interactions with you felt incredibly sincere.

Nothing else on page 9 affected your reads on any other slots?

What would have changed? beeboy was a top townread and continued towning it up. SirCakez was a top townread and continued towning it up. You remained pretty town. davesaz, Sakura Hana, and dramonic were the only possible read changes, and dramonic's post was nothing, Sakura's was something I couldn't lock down one way or another, and for whatever reason davesaz didn't change.

You're voting Seniors but you still have Ogre beneath them in your readslist.

This was an error in my reads list, one that lasted until the correction I posted in 1281. TrueOgre did not belong that low at that stage, and it was a mistake that I didn't think about fixing until later. They were still a scumread, but my Friendless Seniors scumread was much stronger.

Is pistachi0n's place here solely due to her miller claim?

No, it was due to the miller counterclaim causing pistachi0n's wagon to grow as it did. The claim itself was null. How people

reacted

when Amihan counterclaimed is what showed pistachi0n to be town. Speaking of which: yes. The miller gambit was

ridiculously

town. Not only for the gambit itself, but also tonality-wise. It simply did not feel like scum.

I feel like Spiffeh got towner on page 11. You didn't?

Apparently not, but looking at his posting, I don't know why? Reading what he says on that page, I totally agree with you, it looks more town. It could also, however, be part of the error I fixed later; that'd actually make more sense.

Why is Mirhawk's position unchanged? There's very little motion in your readslist around this time.

If I had to guess, it was the error in the reads list. I was literally copy-pasting and making changes as I thought to make them when reading the thread, but at around this point, that meant I often was not making the changes be as strong as they should have been. That's most evident with Friendless Seniors being above TrueOgre in spite of being my strongest scumread, but is elsewhere in there, too.

This is partially answered in your 1278 but why are naked votes from hiplop surprising to you? If you can tell that the naked voter was hiplop, and I agree that was almost certainly him, that means that naked voting isn't surprising from hiplop except in this case it is?

I can tell it was hiplop because Errant almost never casts naked votes. When I think of Errant, I always think, "they vote with a reason". That's my mental picture of them. As for why hiplop's naked vote was bad, it wasn't "naked vote = bad!". It was naked voting pistachi0n. If hiplop were town, I would expect one of two things. Either 1: he wouldn't vote pistachi0n at all, or 2: if he did, like all the other town players at that stage, he would have some dialog about it.

Okay, so Mirhawk got a little worse in 349, but they didn't get worse before that?

Maybe in hindsight, but at the time? Naturally. Mirhawk's posting before that did not seem alarming with what I had read at the time. 349 was just so

egregiously

bad that I find it absolutely impossible to have ever been written by a player not with a scum role card. (This, by the way, was another case of inaccurate placement.)

Can you talk some about your Cakez read? I realise it hasn't changed since page 1 but that's part of the problem I'm having with it.

I can talk about the SirCakez read...but doing so is literally quoting almost his entire iso. His posting started strong. It has only gotten stronger as the game has continued. Why would the read change? He made himself known as town early. He has done absolutely nothing to change that, in fact cementing it with his continuously-strong play.

Snarky isn't falling a little?

At that point, no. I simply didn't have him in my mind to be honest.

I know that Cerberus is a rogue tier but did his predecessor's "18 pages holy moly" affect your read in any direction?

It did nothing.

Is your town read on podoboq partially based on how cute he is?

453 was a solid entrance into the game, but the rest of his posting was not strong enough to mean anything.

Is your dramonic read meta based or?

It's partially taking people's word for it that this is normal for him, and partially gut behind the tone of his pushes. He's pushing only a few players, and giving almost nothing behind the pushes, so objectively that's not very good, but in spite of that he

sounds

town.

You pointed at his 475 and said what you thought of them but he was also considering pistachi0n, mirhawk, and you.

Well, I know I'm town and I understood his suspicion on pistachi0n, even though I disagreed. But Mirhawk was a fine scumread to have.

Is podoboq improving because of posts like 477 where he's looking past things he doesn't like to townread people in spite of antitown behaviour? Because of the jester questions on page 21?

That would be why, yes. 484 was also good.

What did you think of goodmorning's entrance? I notice it didn't leave a mark on your readslist.

It looked decent, but by itself, wasn't enough. Basically, if goodmorning was posting like that every time and every day I'd probably have a stronger townread there, but since it was a one-off post, it didn't make a notable impression. I know, they're V/LA so it's unfair to ask that level of content from them, yet that's what I feel like I need in order to have a stronger read: more posting.

What did you think of snarky chiming in to the jester conversation and continuing to ignore everything going on in the thread?

I think it was about this time that SnarkySnowman was beginning to slowly creep in and replace Cerberus as my rogue townread: someone I didn't know what to think of exactly, but someone I didn't think was scum nor definitively town.

pistachi0n: Sakura Hana, Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk, tictac, Axelrod, podoboq (6)

The wagon you next ask about. Bluntly, the only names on there I wouldn't lynch are Sakura and pobodoq. I think it was

incredibly

scum-driven, taking advantage of two town players seemingly CCing each other.

Is Ogre looking better for mixing up the heads in my hydra on page 22 or something else?

It was the revelation that he's an alt, actually. That was information I needed to have. Given the revelation he's an alt, his interactions suddenly made a lot more sense, namely, how he is treating major players he most likely has much experience with (e.g. Nacho, Wrong Lynch). I did like his response to tictac, too.

What did you think of pistachi0n's 550?

It did nothing. Null. Not a game-changer. pistachi0n has posts which increased the townread from interaction-based to play-based, but those come later.

Was 670 a large part of why podoboq moved up?

652, actually.

I agree that Tammy's town but it feels like you've written her off as town.

Kind-of? I don't have any reason for Tammy being town. Never did. She just popped into my head as a townread, and I haven't let that go.

Have you played with scumCerberus before? Is he that bad at it?

The answer to both is yes.


I'll make another comment, since this is relevant.
I'm moving The Pied Piper into my top tier.
This is not because I think they have proven themselves to be without any doubt town.
It's because if they're scum, frankly I'd let them win.

[Ranger]

I know. That was a long wall. It has my entire thought process more or less lain out there, though, so yes I do expect you to read it all. I would have spoilered it if I expected it to be skipped.

Why was Seniors obvscum on page 9?

13, 50, 96, and ESPECIALLY 190 for a start.

Basically, beeboy's case was right on the money.

What are the relevant tiers?

The relevant tiers as of 1519 are: {untouchable town (Pied Piper has moved here), strong town, fairly town, null town, null scum, slightly scum, basically-confirmed-scum}.

What about Snarky's early posting did you like?

The vote in 74 matches my expectation of SnarkySnowman as town. I also liked 409. That was basically all of what can be called SnarkySnowman's early posting. Both good, but not enough.

What kind of posting would you have expected from scumSnarky early on?

Something else. I'm actually not sure. Just, not what he did.

Have you talked about why they're scum together at any point?

Well, mostly, they're scumreads individually. There

are

associatives linking them. Things like how they have refused to push each other for instance, and how they've been voting for literally anyone not them. (On that note, I'd like to point out, Friendless Seniors backed out of the tictac wagon

just

as momentum had begun to build there. It's also the only non-them wagon Mirhawk didn't support.)

Ranger, this is reminding me of something you said in Blitz 19. Can you tell me what that thing was and why it is reminding me of that thing?

Not from memory, no. Believe it or not, the posts I find least-memorable in a game are my own; I tend to forget what I've said even before the game has finished, yet alone a couple months later. I'd have to look that up, but I don't have time for that right now. Maybe tomorrow I could get back to you about that.

[Ranger]

3 more ppl asking for votes on Ranger and i dont even understand why...

Actually, four: Mirhawk, Friendless Seniors, Spiffeh, and beeboy.

Hint: half of them are scum.

Further hint: beeboy's tied for being my strongest townread.

I think you can do the math from there.

ISO me to find all my reasons why in a spoiler

Which I responded to, and you never countered.

Twice.

Twice, I have answered your challenge. Twice you have continued pressing those points as if I have not.

shes exactly like mafiaception

This game is absolutely

nothing

like Mafiaception. That game, I gave almost no effort. The one and only time I did effort was after my scumbuddy was lynched, faking defense of them. Other than that, I was a lurksack. I gave no content. I held no strong stances. My reads never evolved. I tried laying low. Here, I have given more effort than almost any other game. (Almost.) Here, I have been active, coming in every day and posting plenty. Here, I have given TONS of content, both implied and explicit. (Especially notable when people have actually

asked

me, which most have not bothered to do. I answer when asked. I won't normally provide reasoning otherwise.) I very much have held strong stances, and my reads have evolved. And I am in the spotlight.

It is night and day.

[Ranger]

I don't mean to discredit you here, but that scumpool you just mentioned, is the easiest, least unique one presented thus far.

For someone claiming they're not trying to discredit SirCakez.

This is an awfully lot like a discredit of SirCakez, especially considering it is something SirCakez is so passionate about and especially since me having the same reads as another player is absolutely no sin. If anything, it's the opposite; my established scum meta in half my scum games has been attacking players who were hard targets. (Masons and Mafia, Machina Mafia, Mafiaception, Mexican Standoff, maybe Blitz 26, for a start.) I get reads. My reads sometimes coincidentally line up with those of another. It is exactly that.

Spiffeh should know this, too. I faced this exact same accusation in Blitz 2. (Which I saw he was a player in when I reread that game.) Was town there, am town here.

Her pushing tictac hard and completely avoiding actual pressure on that slot is SERIOUSLY scummy.

Pot, kettle, black. Maybe not from your half of the hydra (would have to check), but guess what your slot's been doing most of the game? Guess what they've also been avoiding? There was actual pressure mounting on tictac, such that I was interested in switching. That pressure has vanished, in large part because you switched your vote just as momentum was building, effectively killing the wagon before it could really get going.

I'd be willing to flash wagon Axelrod and maaaaaaaayybe tictac

Honestly would not object to either.

Why are we voting Ranger?

I don't know, you tell me!

[Ranger]

Other thing is I can't imagine Ranger as scum scumreading a universal townread and not expecting pushback

On that front, I can tell you I absolutely have no fear of pushing a universal townread. Machina Mafia should have told you that much. It's utter BS to think I'd

back down

after doing so, though, because if I'm going to push a universal townread, I'm going to

push

that universal townread, usually with an agenda attached. (E.g. "pushing them will hopefully stop me from being lynched".)

Also, Sakura Hana is town.

[Ranger]

hello, this is EP. something very emotionally difficult has happened to me and I hope you understand that I don't think i'll be able to really spend time on mafia for the time being. thank you for being understanding, especially to hiplop. I will be more than willing to do an awesome catchup when I get back.

<3

Gonna sleep on it, and yeah a claim from either would be nice.

Not happening.

I don't care what size the wagon on me is.

I'm not claiming today.

[Ranger]

Also, ranger, I'm sad that you think I'm so bad at scum that I couldn't fake 875.

Eh, maybe I was a bit too harsh.

It's more like maybe as scum you could make a post like 875 and have it be passable to others, but you wouldn't be able to fool

me

. ;)

I believe ranger is town. I lack sufficient cause to believe FS is scum. That's a very important distinction to make.

Make sure you're around at deadline, then. Unfortunately I don't think my schedule works out that way (I'll still be stuck at work, too busy to use the internet and besides I'd rather not risk losing my job over a game anyway), so I can't, but you need to be.

While my vote's basically locked in on Friendless Seniors for today (as I won't be around tomorrow during deadline if I'm doing my math correctly), I would honorarily support wagons on {Mirhawk, tictac, Axelrod}. Axelrod being a bit iffy, but better than nothing.

[Ranger]

Oh, also, ranger...please explain what about the posts of FS you've seen makes you feel they're scum.

Ahg. If you had asked this earlier, I would have done it, but I don't have the time anymore. :(

I don't even think I have the time to track down the explanations, some from me, some from others, on them. I'm sorry, I know I should especially given the current wagons, but I really

do

need to log off. :/

[Ranger]

I'll have to check back though, I thi she recently did the not claiming today as scum.

I think I did, too.

I can't remember which game (which is odd, I only have 8, you'd think I would but I don't), but I think I did. Maybe Machina?

Final thing before I go: {Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666, The Pied Piper, Sakura Hana}
{Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq}
{Spiffeh, davesaz}
{The Wrong Lynch}
{dramonic, SnarkySnowman}
{Axelrod, True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

The changes here are Pied Piper and Sakura Hana going to untouchable town, me feeling better about The Wrong Lynch (no specific reason why, just a general thing), and davesaz getting knocked down a tier. This is mainly because I feel like he should know I'm town this game. He's seen me as scum

twice

. He's also seen me as town many times. He should be aware this is not like the scum games, yet he is pushing me anyway and in spite of me answering his call, his vote remains, unchanged, with no additional reason and no additional response, similar to Spiffeh in that regard.

[Ranger]

Well this was a game I was in. Yay town!

^