A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[Amihan]

V/LA this week due to travel.

[Amihan]

Yooooooo

VOTE: beeboy

I'm a miller.

Tip: if you want to fakeclaim Miller as scum, you should probably wait until everyone else has posted so you can be sure nobody else is an actual Town Miller.

VOTE: pistachion

[Amihan]

I'm pretty sure beeboy is town, that doesn't seem like a scum reaction to this.

beeboy knock it off

there is like no reason for her to flavor claim

Are you scum?

[Amihan]

@amihan: Why are you so sure she's fake claiming?
@beeboy: why the vote?

(I got some time right now, so please interact with me )

an actual Town Miller

[Amihan]

Let's not be so hasty.

[Amihan]

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

VOTE: Mirhawk

This is the scummiest reaction to my claim ever.

[Amihan]

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

This strongly reads like scum preparing for what they know to be a pistachion townflip.

[Amihan]

^That post and the one I quoted before it.

[Amihan]

Are you Salamance in disguise?

Because I'm not doing this fake miller gambit bullshit again.

Also reads like scum who doesn't believe there could really be two Millers, but is going along with the pistachion lynch because "why not" go for the free mislynch.

[Amihan]

On why I'm not voting pist: I think two millers is not exactly likely, but still possible. On the other hand Mirhawk's posts reek of scum motivation.

[Amihan]

But I'm not a miller though. Sorry to deceive, first time I've tried something like that. Some looked like genuine town believing it, others made naked votes on pist, and in general once the validity of the "counter claim" was thrown into question things got muddy.

The player whose reaction came off the worst though was Mirhawk's:

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

I mean that has significant scum motivation, and also comes off as orchestrated. Set up the idea of me being scum doing that (which is arguably suicidal) and then just go with the easy mislynch anyway despite supposed misgivings...

I get that Mirhawk probably successfully made himself look town to some people by vocally doubling down on his position, but the part where he just shut down otherwise and defaulted to questioning the miller claim itself doesn't feel genuine.

I like pist's reaction to the claim. I don't think scum would actually counter by saying "well technically you DID post first" especially when that was factually incorrect anyway.

[Amihan]

On the Miller thing: it's weird that Ami didn't claim in her first post, almost like she was "wait[ing] until everyone else ha[d] posted so [she could] be sure nobody else [was] an actual Town Miller." I don't know if we've seen enough from either to judge which one (if either) is telling the truth.
Reading on, 355 doesn't make sense - if you're actually Town Miller, you can be 99% sure the person you're CCing is Scum, so why on earth would you vote anyone else?? And 357 strongly implies she knows pistachio is Town??? 365: "I think 2 Millers is not likely" YOU MAKE NO SENSE

Surely Ami isn't so new she doesn't know how many Millers are likely in one game.

I've seen 2 millers before but I know that's probably not the norm, which is why I felt like trying out a fake counter claim would make for a bit of fun with potential telling reactions to sift through. From scum who would be much more likely to believe a Miller counter claim from town.

I don't get what you don't like about 357 and 365. I realize my credibility is already shot here but I don't think either was unreasonable from my POV.

[Amihan]

AMI
I TRUSTED YOU

Sorry, I kind of got bored of trying so hard after how our newbie game ended. I thought I could get a bit more fun along with potential results out of doing this instead as long as I retracted the claim before the lynch happened.

Wasn't the best idea to do this on V/LA though. Luckily I came back when two others voted pist.

[Amihan]

I want to prioritize trying to read the hydras but it's so much harder than it seems at first. :/

I like The Wrong Lynch because it's like they're saying exactly what I'm thinking about Mirhawk, but in a more understandable and experienced way. If that's naive of me you can say it but so far that's the only hydra I think I'm actually connecting with.

[Amihan]

Tammy are you ignoring my posts? I think it's fair to say that what I pulled has been a fairly significant center of content (meaning that it's generated a lot of what's happened lately) but you seem to just be playing around the Miller discussion, in the sense that you're making reads around players who talk about it without addressing what you think about any of pistachion, Mirhawk, or me. Do you not have any read on Mirhawk or are you withholding that?

[Amihan]

I should have asked, are you purposefully ignoring discussion based around the Miller claim, fakeclaim, and reactions?

[Amihan]

I'm not offended not that I have a right to be, I'm honestly just curious as to why your focuses are what they are.

[Amihan]

Fair answer.

I think I'm just curious because I want to be townread by more people so I don't have to scumhunt as "aggressively" this time.

[Amihan]

Amihan until 4/1.

Oh just so everyone knows, I am more limited access than fully away from the site right now. I'm still trying to post but this is because I can't guarantee 48 hour activity for a few days.

Why do people think Friendless Seniors are scum? Why is the wagon there? I've seen nothing other than beeboy being loud and posty.

[Amihan]

Fair answer.

I think I'm just curious because I want to be townread by more people so I don't have to scumhunt as "aggressively" this time.

What does this mean Ami? Why do you put aggressively in quotes?

In most of the games I've played here people tend to just call me aggressive, townread me, and then ignore me afterward.

[Amihan]

sorry guys beeboy sucked the fun out of this for me a bit.

is it still just a lot of unproductive noise or

See, this is my problem with the FS slot. It feels like most of their contribution is discounting the people on their wagon, rather than discussing relevant parts of the game. Like, the Miller CC and Mirhan's response to it seems like the topic of the moment, and FS comes in with this when nobody's even discussing that wagon.

This could just be apathy for the game after feeling like he was tunneled by a loud and stubborn player, but this attitude isn't helpful for town.

I agree that it's not much content wise but I certainly don't think it's a scum response. Any tunneled town will often feel that way and express it publicly. Scum who's being tunneled and demotivated because of that, I think would likely both address their strongest detractor while just transparently floating along. I mean the post serves no purpose for scum other than appealing to emotion (which also still comes from town)...

[Amihan]

I'm trying to sort Ami right at the moment. I didn't like her statement in 685 because it sounds like she doesn't want to scum hunt.

...to be fair that is exactly what I said. It is a tiny struggle right now.

If something town or scum or interesting pops out at me I'll pursue it, but if not, I don't really feel like... trying to produce motivation that isn't there at the moment.

[Amihan]

I want to prioritize trying to read the hydras but it's so much harder than it seems at first. :/

I like The Wrong Lynch because it's like they're saying exactly what I'm thinking about Mirhawk, but in a more understandable and experienced way. If that's naive of me you can say it but so far that's the only hydra I think I'm actually connecting with.

How do you feel about my points about Mirhawk?

It looks like you don't have any completed games with any of the hydra heads, and you haven't played with hydra before. Why are we your priority sort? As a good place to start as any, or something more? Are there any questions you could ask us that would help you sort us?

In most of the games I've played here people tend to just call me aggressive, townread me, and then ignore me afterward.

Do you like being ignored? Why?

Are you seeking to be written off as town or for people to work together with you as town?

It's not due to any hydra player in particular, but I feel like hydra in my experience so far just need more time devoted to reading them. If I'm going to be paying special attention to anyone it'll be hydras especially so I can figure out who is posting what.

As for your second question I'd love to be written off as town... who wouldn't? Nobody gets anything done if they just have to keep defending themselves. I'd also want to work together with people as town, but I am still trying to figure out how I can bring that to the table. Some people have issues with my playstyle and I guess I don't blame them.

All of this doesn't matter if I can't get any reads done. I want to take a step back and look at everyone sometime today.

[Amihan]

Fair answer.

I think I'm just curious because I want to be townread by more people so I don't have to scumhunt as "aggressively" this time.

Not scumreading this. I just got out of a game with Ami where she had to play incredibly aggressively because she replaced into the craziest scummiest slot. She had to play hard because we had reason to scumread her.

If she wants to be able to lay back a little bit and relax more through this game, that totally makes sense to me.

I'm trying to sort Ami right at the moment. I didn't like her statement in 685 because it sounds like she doesn't want to scum hunt.

...to be fair that is exactly what I said. It is a tiny struggle right now.

If something town or scum or interesting pops out at me I'll pursue it, but if not, I don't really feel like... trying to produce motivation that isn't there at the moment.

Just noting these two posts because Podo is soft defending Ami here. Possible association?

Ami, I appreciate your honesty but I'm not sure how to take it right now. I don't believe I've ever played with you so could you link the game where you had to try so hard that you have no/little motivation now? Please and thank you.

Newbie 1681. I had to work overtime to flip my position as the universally scumread player and almost certain day 1 lynch, to the most universally townread player and attempted nightkill target two times over. (Btw podo do I get to brag about that? I'm pretty proud of it still... lol no matter how it turned out.) But it's not because of that game that I have little motivation, it's because of the nature of my V/LA... I'm a student. I'm on spring break. I'm traveling. This isn't at the top of my list.

But now I... found this post of yours really, REALLY scummy actually. :/

podoboq isn't soft defending me, he's unabashedly defending me. The way you're spinning this makes it seem a hundred times more sneaky than it actually is.

Secondly this feels so disconnected from where your read on me is at right now. Earlier you just said my post was weird, harped on that for a bit, and questioned The Wrong Lynch for not finding anything wrong with it (they responded by the way as did The Pied Piper and you seem to have ignored both of those reads in my favor). You didn't vote me (your vote is still on SirCakez, your RVS vote).

But now you seem to be convinced enough that you're at the stage where the first thought about someone defending me is that they might be a scumpartner. The first assumption isn't even that podoboq is just wrong on, but that someone defending me makes for a potential scum team association! That is so weird to me.

I am seeing a pattern of behavior that seems less like town growing more convinced a player is scum, and more like scum who has decided who to focus in on as a scumread and knows beforehand where they want to go with their opinions.

It's like you're determined to view the game around a position where I am scum, and selectively ignoring or suspecting people who defend me.

The tone of your suspicion around these posts has also felt more like scum whispering their suspicion to see what flies or to influence town's reads, rather than town just simply stating their reads, but I'm not sure if I can express that correctly.

[Amihan]

So I really didn't like that Skybird post, and now looking at her ISO I'm not liking her thought process that just seems to jump from question to question between without any followup on those. That is a playstyle designed by scum to get along with peoples' reads.

Screw it it's still early. VOTE: Skybird Mirhawk can wait.

[Amihan]

That is a playstyle designed by scum to get along with peoples' reads.

More accurately, it's just a common scum playstyle. Asking lots of questions that you honestly don't care about.

[Amihan]

Agree. I think that post of Amihan's is too honest to be newbscum. I checked earlier and they don't have any completed scum games. None of the newbies do, except podoboq if that one night ultimate werewolf game counts (I'm not inclined to count it since he didn't know he was scum or who his buddy was).

As for this, it's just a weak reason to townread me, sorry. I'm assuming most newbie accounts (like me) have played mafia elsewhere before coming here. I think if you want to categorize people as new, the best way to do that would be to read their personality. Though I have been acting more new than experienced this game so far.

[Amihan]

The Wrong Lynch and Tammy, can you sum up the argument between you two? (...three?) Too many words.

Also, I think my Skybird case was pretty solid and it is being ignored for boring FS stuff.

[Amihan]

I think that was probably a genuine mistake regardless of alignment. Don't you?

Yes, but of all the arguments to pursue, is that the one scum chooses when counterclaimed? I don't think so.

[Amihan]

Ami posted before I claimed Miller, didn't day anything about it until she CC'd me. Odd.

And why isn't she voting me? Because she knows I'll flip town, making her look suspicious?

Is your point that the error here doesn't point to either town or scum because the error seems genuine either way?

If so I agree on that. But I don't think a scum pistachion would choose to fight a counterclaim by calling it a suspicious scum fakeclaim and voting me, rather than trying to either posit that 2 millers is possible or that I was gambitting a miller claim as town.

[Amihan]

If you were in Pistach's shoes, noticed that the person who counterclaimed you posted first without claiming miller (and claiming miller in your first post is site standard), then counterclaimed after you claimed, would you point it out if town? If scum?

You would point it out either way because in that vulnerable position either alignment's first priority is to lend themselves credibility, and one way to do that is by undermining your opponent's.

I agree on your point. But I simply don't think a scum pistachion would choose to fight back by maintaining the 1v1 status quo. Scum pistachion, with her incorrect assumption in mind, would think I was just fakeclaiming Miller, and the more helpful course of action would be trying to get me to admit it. Kind of like Mirhawk.

[Amihan]

I think SirCakez is my strongest townread.

On the other hand I am wary of beeboy. I'm trying to see what FS said about enthusiasm for catching scum but I can just as easily see it as an enthusiasm for BEING scum. It doesn't seem like he wants to figure things out but rather just sticking to what he's got, but at the same time there's still not much there that makes me think that can't be town too. It feels like a common playstyle here to blow as much hot air as possible.

[Amihan]

Mirhawk is my second strongest scumread and I am willing to lynch him, I just feel more strongly about Skybird. I think her last post addressing me with "that's just how I play, sorry" was potentially promising? Not town, but I think if she's town she'll be able to set me right there.

[Amihan]

So I headed back to read what the crap is going on about wrt Mirhawk.
But it didnt matter because:

I decided after posting that there was no way find out if the CC was legit or not without flipping one or both of the people involved, so I voted for pistachio anyways.

This right there is scum lining up lynches.
with that said i dont mind Mirhawk dying today either
VOTE: Mirhawk

If I had to call one of the people in this exchange scum for opportunistic voting... it wouldn't be Mirhawk.

The reasoning overall is sound, but it's starting to feel too much like people harping on a town logic error. Mirhawk's responses don't even sound that bad (I might even be starting to like him read-wise), and how people from all across the board just enter taking only a short time to vote Mirhawk... I'm getting the impression that scum really like this wagon.

Can we lynch Skybird instead please?

[Amihan]

Mirhawk: davesaz, THE WRONG LYNCH, SirCakez, The Pied Piper, Cerberus v666, Sakura Hana (6)

It felt like more than just 6 people voted him. Certainly more than 6 people have been forming what feels like a mob against him.

I don't remember how the first two joined, but I think I remember TWL's reasoning. There wasn't anything bad about it, but nothing town-sounding either.

I liked how SirCakez and The Pied Piper expressed their dislike for Mirhawk's posting, and both felt genuine. I sort of like Cerb's wording of the case, but I think that kind of objective reasoning can be very easily faked by logical scum.

I really didn't like how Sakura joined the wagon.

[Amihan]

The problem is I can easily see Mirhawk being genuine here as both town and scum: genuine as town in that his thoughts really formed instinctively the way he's been reasserting, and genuine as scum in that he honestly believes town would have come to the conclusion he did. I don't think he's trying to reframe anything he did if he's scum, just honestly trying to explain the thought process he came up with.

The turn the case is taking, with Cerb's post summarizing it, seems to come down to a question of whether or not Mirhawk followed the optimal logic. I'd argue it is very possible he didn't if his references to the game where a fake miller claim/counterclaim burned him are true, because bad memories or instinctive negative reactions can both easily impair the use of optimal logic.

[Amihan]

I think everything through. Too far through, generally speaking.

But not everyone does. Which is more or less my point on Mirhawk right now, that the details of the case seem to assume perfect logic.

In short what I'm saying is I'm seeing a scenario that Mirhawk is conveying (somewhat) but that others are ignoring: he had negative personal experience with Millers and instinctively didn't like my claim, and just didn't fully think it through, as town. I think there is a decent chance of that having happened.

His back and forth posts with Spiffeh where it's like they're talking past each other (mostly Spiffeh having to try and get Mirhawk to understand his point of why it looked scummy) seem to lend this credence.

[Amihan]

I've read the whole thread Mirhawk. Your point about Ami "dodging" is terrible. Her counterclaim was clear, there is no universe in which she could get away with saying "naw guys, you misunderstood me, I NEVER said i was a miller".

No, I actually did dodge it, and then disappeared when pressed again. Mirhawk already pointed this out when he returned afterward.

[Amihan]

I don't even know myself if I'm trying to defend Mirhawk, but my main thought right now is that too many people don't like him, and the reasons for that are either flimsy/based on too many assumptions, or attribute guilt to that which simple error can explain just as sufficiently.

I like Skybird for scum. And the suspicion is there, multiple people have expressed this, but the votes aren't. What's up with that?

[Amihan]

V/LA hitting a lot harder right now; nothing urgent to say but I'll be back in full after the weekend most likely. Sorry.

[Amihan]

Would not be okay with Mirhawk lynch as opposed to Skybird or Swordsworth. Yes that was very likely a scum replace out. Talk about how replacements are null all you want, but the way and conditions under which you present your replacement request circumstances matters.

[Amihan]

I am scumreading the hell out of Ranger's entrance and progression.

Sorry guys it happened again. This was my post.

It came up in Newbie 1682, but this is Marquis's computer which I use often. We're friends in real life.

[Amihan]

Correction, Newbie 1681.

Personally I think it is unrelated to the game and I want to move on from the error. Meaning that I would vote Ranger now if I didn't consider the Skybird wagon already a success.

[Amihan]

Actually Mirhawk elaborated already. In general those were my thoughts on Ranger, and Ranger's catch up felt very artificial as a whole.

[Amihan]

VOTE: Ranger

I've been inactive due to school-related events, I'm sorry for that. But if Skybird isn't happening this is the way to go. SirCakez is definitely town.

[Amihan]

I'm not elaborating on that last read right now but will eventually.

[Amihan]

SirCakez is definitely town.

What? Hell no.

He parked on the easiest wagon that required the least justification and never left.

Seriously, go read his ISO. Try to find justification for his vote. When I pressed him on it he offered up some gibberish reasons, then stopped responding to me.

There's lots going on in town. There's no way that he hasn't found anything stronger than that in all this time. It's not like he isn't here, he's had a hundred posts since then.

I am not seeing anything substantive in your ISO regarding your thought process on Cakez. If there's anything opportunistic it would be you on him. Earlier minor criticisms don't mesh with how strong your read seems to be now, and just looks manufactured in response to others like Spiffeh's higher certainty on him.

I don't have anything substantive to townread him, granted. But he was town enough and helpful enough in Newbie 1681 that I just don't want to lynch him over other options that yield more information, I think the case and jump in wagon size is by nature not to be trusted, and I think this lynch is a distraction from wagons like Ranger or Skybird or even your own.

I don't like how so many people said they'd take a look at Skybird because of the constant 3-man wagon, but then practically nobody did and that's why it died.

I don't like how people seem to think effort means towniness in terms of Ranger's catchup. It was very lacking in thought process and looked artificial such that the end reads even felt planned out. You even pointed this out yourself, so I don't know why you're choosing to go to Cakez instead and fighting me on Ranger, with only minor negatives on him in your ISO.

I just don't believe SirCakez is the best lynch.

[Amihan]

Of the 4 top I rank them Ranger, Cakez, FS, Mirhawk.

So vote Ranger.

[Amihan]

Same to Mirhawk too. I took a chance on you potentially being town and it feels like you're squandering it.

[Amihan]

Of the 4 top I rank them Ranger, Cakez, FS, Mirhawk.

So vote Ranger.

Sorry, I thought you had switched to SirCakez too. Disregard this then.

[Amihan]

I'll look back at that later, but honestly? Whatever works is fine to me. The vote is bad and the wagon is bad.

I'm choosing to not try and read Spiffeh this day by the way. I have some reservations there but it wouldn't be productive to make anything out of at all.

[Amihan]

I've been prodded. Why aren't we lynching Ranger. Why are we going back to a dumb default lynch.

[Amihan]

I've been prodded. Why aren't we lynching Ranger. Why are we going back to a dumb default lynch.

FS is not a dumb default lynch. Could you provide some logic as to why you're seeing it that way?

Because I don't see why the Ranger wagon dissolved?

I haven't read in full but I generally don't like situations like this where the lynch falls back on the first large wagon. It kind of stinks of opportunism.

[Amihan]

Amihan, what do you think of Ranger's recent posts?

I think her thought process still feels fake as ever.

[Amihan]

Who the fuck shoots spiffeh?

TWL?

Don't think so.

This seems out of nowhere, why?

[Amihan]

Skybird is my top pick.

VOTE: Skybird

VOTE: Skybird Agreed.

[Amihan]

I'm guessing the Snarky kill was a vig kill.

Will comment on things more when I am fully available for this game.

[Amihan]

Bye everyone.