A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[The Pied Piper]

Hi!

VOTE: The Pied Piper

Nacho you'd love my musical!

[The Pied Piper]

If you aren't what I think you are, then I am disappointed in you.

[The Pied Piper]

unless you are THE LION KING

[The Pied Piper]

(for reference) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ9yAV8uQ7g

Also, continuing the futile fight against evil Hydras

Vote: The Wrong Lynch

Why didn't you vote the hydra that already posted in the game?

[The Pied Piper]

[The Pied Piper]

ALSO HI NACHOOOO. I MISSED YOU TOO AND YOU'RE HYDRA'ING WITH PLOTI SO THIS MAKES ME VERY HAPPEH.

MAAAAALA HI MALA

Hi Sakura o/

yeah ok

Vote: Axelrod

serious vote.

Are you implying the Seniors wagon isn't serious?

Are you implying it is?

I was actually trying to imply the opposite.

You should sheep me btw.

I'm really having trouble parsing this post. Does opposite mean that your seniors wagon isn't serious or something else? The rest of your ISO seems to imply that it's serious but then what does opposite mean in this context?

Seniors is, indeed, worthy of a vote. But more right than Wrong?

I am happy that you are posting puns! This game needs more puns. However, I am worried about the lack of scumhunting in your ISO. Do you have any reads yet? Could you do both scumhunting and puns?

Alright, so far I haven't seen anything out of place for Nacho. So I'm unsure why you're focusing him for a sort so early on. Also then there's the fact Ploti is in that hydra too.

What do you mean about me? Do you mean that Sakura should be trying to sort us based on my posting or something else?

Seniors is policy tho.

Only scum wouldn't buddy up with me because I always hit scum when I wagon someone.
Seniors know this and should have accepted my hand in friendship but they don't want to be forced to bus.

I don't really know why, but this made me laugh.

Doesn't it remind you kind of my early push on Persivul in our last game? Beeboy's point makes about as much sense to me as my points against Persivul made to myself in that game.

Maybe it's just me. I have never had a problem with hydras. Maybe it's because all of my hydra partners are amazing human beings

I LOVE YOU TOO. BOTH OF YOU.

(Also I find hydras easier to read because I get two chances to read the same slot and there are two reads progressions that need to make sense and twice the opportunity to connect to somebody and figure them out and just yeah.)


Mirhawk could be town. I like the kinds of questions they're asking. Feels like genuine scumhunting.

VOTE: snarky

real vote

This is exactly how Snarky plays and it surprises me both you and EP both don't know that.

Okay this is a good point, and the first point you've made against them that I can follow. I don't mind seeing where you're going with this.

VOTE: Friendless Seniors

Snarky, are you voting seniors because you like beeboy's case or something else?

I suppose you could make the argument that its indicative of her being overly concerned about how she's being perceived, but I think that's probably common in paranoid players and

PR's

in addition to scum.

Why would you say this out loud?

Good "morning" everyone, here's to a great game.

VOTE: SirCakez

Why not?

Good morning! What do you think of the last 6 pages?



Ok. I have:

• 3 scumleans
  
• 3-5 townleans
  
• 1 current wagon that i'm okay with
  
• 1 current wagon that i don't understand
  
• 2-3 people that I'm thinking about but I want to see more from them (this is distinct from the large group of people who haven't posted enough yet or at all)
  
• ~5 people that I think that if they are town they would be easy mislynches for scum. There is a little overlap here with my scumleans)
  
• 2-3 people that I think will be hard for me to read based on their playstyle so far this game or previous experience with their playstyle. I expect this number to grow once more people are posting.
  
• A bunch of people that I'm excited to be playing with. <3
  
• 1 awesome hydra partner

[The Pied Piper]

This post is being written by The Pied Piper!

On hydras: would it be possible to sign on top rather than at the bottom?
I tend to read from top to bottom and it would be helpful to know the writer on the first readthrough.

Did I do it right?

They wouldn't mess up like that and do scummy things as town twice in a row then leave thread.

Have you played with town hippyloppy before?

[The Pied Piper]

This post is being written by The Pied Piper!

On hydras: would it be possible to sign on top rather than at the bottom?
I tend to read from top to bottom and it would be helpful to know the writer on the first readthrough.

Did I do it right?

They wouldn't mess up like that and do scummy things as town twice in a row then leave thread.

Have you played with town hippyloppy before?

I played with each of them twice as scum. Both times I was in hippy's scum team. Once I was town vs Scum EP and another game I was on a team with the Friendless Seniors hydra.
I have played with both of them as town as well.

Fun fact when I played with Seniors they helped drive a push taking advantage of snarky's play style to drive him to mason claim. They know it is an easy unreliable push.

oh. i haven't played with townhippy yet either except for like 2 hours in hitchcock when i replaced in but I'm not sure "wouldn't do scummy things as town" is an accurate description of his townplay. But I agree that the vote on snarky is bad and that I would expect them to know that naked voting isn't alignment indicative for Snarky and I'd rather see them trying to figure things out before voting like that. You're right that it's a very easy push.

Did I do it right?

No

Oh

[The Pied Piper]

@Beeboy: when you say you know how Friendless Seniors would react to you, are you talking about one of the hydra heads in particular? Or is this a Hydra that you have played with before? I don't get your conviction given that Seniors hasn't done much of anything.

I have a reasonable understanding how both would play. Randomly voting a lynch bait and providing no other good content is verrryy verrrrry far from what both would do as town. This is just general but even more truthful in regards to them because they know snarky is lynchbaity.

The delayed reaction to my joke buddy comment is more general and less specific to them.

In as much as this is a meta-argument and I have never played with either of those people, I am curious if anyone else who has played with them (Friendless Seniors/hiplop/Errantparabola) agree/disagree with this assessment?

I've been scum together with both hippy and errant and i've been town against scumhippy recently. errant hasn't posted yet i'm pretty sure. I haven't seen hiplop's towngame up close before. I was spectating the game beeboy is talking about, though not very closely; hiplop and errant were hydraing in that one too and they played very well as scum.

The only point i disagree on is that hippy wouldn't be sloppy as town because i'm fairly sure that's not true.

I think beeboy is right that voting for snarky without trying to engage him is scummy, not just sloppy.

I don't get your conviction given that Seniors hasn't done much of anything.

I think that "hasn't done much of anything" is a fine reason to scumread a person. Where's the scumhunting? Where's the poking around for reactions? Do they have any reads? Why aren't they engaging with anybody? He was here for about an hour and he did very little in that time, though he made several posts.

[The Pied Piper]

Your read on Mirhawk is the only reason I'm not currently voting for you. (I agree with you there)

Do you believe that scumbeeboy would not be claiming to townread Mirhawk in this game? Why? Who do you think he would fake a read on instead? Do you expect scum to share no reads with you at all?

[The Pied Piper]

Piper you sound down to frump the trump vote with me

I am, but I'd like to sync with my hydra partner first.

Do you believe that scumbeeboy would not be claiming to townread Mirhawk in this game?

It's possible the he would, but less likely that his read would happen to coincide with mine.
It's a case of thought-sync and that counts as a townpoint for beeboy.

That makes sense. So it's more his thought process behind the Mirhawk townread that you're identifying with?

Tictac what part of my read on seniors is fake and scummy?

The part where you have a strong read on a slot that hasn't done anything.
How is this difficult to get?

What do you think of my point that not doing anything is, in itself, scummy?

[The Pied Piper]

I wasn't playing in midsummer, I was just following along and reading it. My reads were really bad though. all my scumreads flipped town. though i did pick ari as snowman's mason partner on day 1.

[The Pied Piper]

Disagree. We are less than 24 hours into the game. It's a non-indicator at this point.
Which one are you?

And no I think this is scum!Plot

Nah.

That's stupid sorry

PEdit: It's fine for an initial read but I'm not buying that people are being convinced by beeboy's other points and I don't really like some people's behavior around the wagon (i.e Pied Piper)

That's the point I agree with, though. I don't find the point about buddying compelling, and I mentioned this earlier. Does my lack of vote bother you, then, or something else?

[The Pied Piper]

Does my lack of vote bother you, then, or something else?

I feel like you devoted more time to meta talk than was necessary. hiplop hasn't really done enough yet for that discussion to be useful and it looks like filler content. Reminds me of scum!Plot in History where you kinda droned on about things that didn't matter.

Your fixation with tictac specifically is weird too? Like you bombard him with questions right from the get go for no clear reason. It makes me think you want to stroke beeboy's ego and goad his tunnel by nitpicking at someone who isn't really buying into it.

What do you think of my point that not doing anything is, in itself, scummy?

And I don't buy that you feel this way less than 24 hours into the game.

And Nacho hasn't really done anything that looks town so yeah I'm voting you

I think you're right that I'm not expressing myself very well today. I'll try again some other time. I believe you've seen me use more words than neccessary in both The Odds and that horrid blitz as well.

Tictac is someone that I've been looking forward to playing with because they're somebody that I know. I have been asking them questions to try to get a read on them and understand their thought process. It may well be that my questions to tictac don't interest you but they interest me and that's why I'm asking them.

I'm interested in beeboy and his tunnel because he's one of the players that I'm having a difficult time reading; I agree with some of his points and disagree with others, but I'm interested in seeing where he goes with it.

What I think is scummy about Friendless Seniors, aside from the SnarkySnowman vote, is that they have made a bunch of posts over the span of an hour, but in those posts, they did virtually nothing. I do not think it is scummy that various people haven't posted yet, or that there are people with only 1-2 posts. But if someone has several posts spread out over some time, but there is nothing worth reading in those posts, that's scummy. Errant's wall is the first thing of substance from that slot, but I know that they're capable of writing walls as both alignments and I want to digest it when I'm less tired.

I'll come back to this on a better communication day.

I don't mind your vote on me, but you scumread me in everygame that we play together, so your accuracy rate is 25%.

[The Pied Piper]

Seeing 17 pages already instills a profound sadness in me that cannot be described. I wanted this to be an exciting and fun game and I know it's obnoxious to complain about number of pages but I probably won't be engaged until the weekend.

I saw someone town reading me because I followed up on something which means that someone probably doesn't know how to tell us apart because I haven't followed up on anything yet.

[The Pied Piper]

Spiffeh, is that your reason for voting me?

[The Pied Piper]

Okay.

It's y expectation that I will be driving the hydra for the next couple of days and I've tried to word this in a way where I don't sound like a massive ass but I probably won't be responding to your case and I doubt you'll be getting traction on it. Accusing Plotinus of metaing too early is weird considering Plotinus is the type of player who is metaing and sharing expectations before the game begins, saying that Plotinus would be aiming to stroke beeboy's ego is funny but not really based in reality and the last point I didn't understand.

[The Pied Piper]

Not that I don't understand it because it doesn't make sense but I don't understand it because voting someone for being underwhelming seems pretty normal to me.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm not actually here right now.

[The Pied Piper]

@True Ogre

Are you feigning an inability to tell us apart in order to keep your main a secret, or for some other reason? I'm not interested in outing you but I do know who you are.

@Sakura

The Odds and that horrid blitz as well.

Interestingly enough I feel like the way Hippy's been treated is similar to how i was treated on "that horrid blitz" with beeboy playing the role of Wisdom.

Just like Wisdom was town on Blitz and I kept scumreading him because all he did was say "Scum scum scum, meta meta meta" and pretty much just boxed me in and didnt let me defend myself that i went and ragequit MS.

That game hurt. I should've replaced out too but I didn't want to abandon my hydra partner who was also having a terrible time and we didn't trust a replacement to find our crumbs. For me, it wasn't

just

being tunnelled for 90 pages by Wisdom/hiplop/Expedience/RC/Spiffeh/etc that made it soul crushing, part of it was being put in a box and not being let out of the box but also some of the ways I was being pushed when I was having trouble communicating reminded me of things I don't want to talk about and there wasn't any single post that I could point to and say this crossed the line, there was nothing I could explain coherently not even postgame about what was wrong. I'm sorry I couldn't break out of my own box to help you out of your box. I am glad you came back after all. I had to take over a month break too and I'm still not really over it. I think you are right that seniors may be being boxed in but I think they could be scum this time But I don't want to do to them what they helped do to me, not even if they're scum, so I'd like to look elsewhere for now. I think it would be easier to read Seniors accurately if they were allowed out of their box.


@Axelrod

Regarding 288, thanks for the explanation, that makes a lot of sense. Being 90% certain seems like hyperbole to me, but I agree that he seems sincere in his hyperbole. Are you still townreading Mirhawk?

@Wrong lynch

I hope you feel better soon! Regarding 397, Sakura has a lot more history with Nacho than with Plot though. You're right that she hasn't really reached out to us very hard yet. I'm hoping this will change when she returns from her V/LA. I'm willing to trust goodmorning on beeboy for now since she's played with him recently but it's ridiculous that someone has written over 25% of the game all by himself, and Tammy and pistachi0n are right that when you boil it down there's just not a lot there. I've been trying to think if this is how i feel about beeboy or not:

The less you have to sell, the harder you sell it!
The less you have to say, the louder you yell it!
The dumber the act, the bigger the confession!
The less you have to show, the larger you dress it!

I mean it is how I feel I just don't think he's scum for it which is unfortunate, because I'd support a policy lynch there if I didn't have stronger scumreads elsewhere, namely: Mirhawk. I'm interested in your Mirhawk push. I was okay with their earlier posting, such as 82 and 93, at the time they were posted, but davesaz is a fairly easy target so I'm not as happy with those posts now as I was when I first read them.

I like that in 117 they point out that being self involved isn't a scumtell because I agree that it's a humantell not a scumtell. I don't like that the rest of that post is semantics and also this post is defending Seniors from beeboy. I've been trying to figure out if Mirhawk is whiteknighting town Seniors or defending a buddy but there's been enough resistance to the Seniors wagon and if Mirhawk has prior experience with beeboy then Mirhawk might have been able to predict that beeboy wouldn't let go once he latched on. Mirhawk does confirm in 300 that they've played together before with beeboy.

I agree with a lot of the points that are being made against them, especially that they seem to be working from too much information. Mirhawk seemed to know that Ami was gambitting when the rest of us didn't and I wasn't impressed with their posturing around the claims, for example 349 and 350 just don't seem natural. Mirhawk first is suspecting that Ami is scum counterclaiming Pistachi0n which someone mentioned would be suicidal if they were scum and I agree and seems to already know that Pistachi0n is town but doesn't mind lynching them anyway. I agree with everyone who has raised these points.

When Mirhawk tried to push Ami to reveal that she's not really a miller, i was thinking that Mirhawk was distancing from her buddy's suicidal scumplay but I think it just makes more sense as a reaction test now that it's been retracted and both Ami and Pistachi0n are probably town. I think Mirhawk knew that they were both town from the start and has been doing a poor job of hiding it. I find it's a lot easier to spot a gambit when I'm scum because it helps that I already know the alignments of the people who are doing it, so it pings me that Mirhawk's first assumption was gambit and was trying to push for the gambit to be revealed before it was when it's better to let as many people react to it as possible. I think Mirhawk felt threatened that a number of people would look town via their reactions to Amihan's gambit and wanted to cut it off early.

VOTE: Mirhawk L-6

pedit: Mirhawk wants towncred for knowing pistachi0n's alignment. I am happy with my vote.

[The Pied Piper]

Sorry Tammy I am irritable because it is 4am for me I will avoid playing out the rest of the game like that.

[The Pied Piper]

If by pointing out that your over generalizations are over generalized, not helpful, or convincing in any way, then sure I'm defending them. I look at it at looking past that and trying to figure out the actual read.

If your case is based on being able to read them really well then the overgeneralized stuff is not necessary and I need to cut through stuff I don't buy into to see something that makes sense.

Yes 500 posts later I am still voting them because I don't like there RVS I don't see the problem with that.

I have no idea if you're serious here.

But even if so, you're completely missing my point. You're making overgeneralizations about play in general and then saying oh I can read them.

The play should be about them in particular. You're saying no town would make a naked vote after one hour. That's just objectively wrong, and if you're going to claim no town do things I've seen town do all the time and do myself, I'm not going to take you seriously.

If you're going to talk about why it's specific to them, talk about that. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air.

No point in defending a push I made for a variety of reasons most of which have nothing to do with wanting Seniors lynched since my read has seriously evolved from where you are at right now.
I understand the point you are making but you are looking at what I am doing in a vacuum aren't looking at other players all that much and I still feel as though what you are doing this game underwhelming.
I feel as though what I did helped progress the game and if you don't think it is productive and you don't want to take me serious that is all on you but I am going to keep doing what I am doing.

OKAY!

What I think is scummy about Friendless Seniors, aside from the SnarkySnowman vote, is that they have made a bunch of posts over the span of an hour, but in those posts, they did virtually nothing. I do not think it is scummy that various people haven't posted yet, or that there are people with only 1-2 posts. But if someone has several posts spread out over some time, but there is nothing worth reading in those posts, that's scummy. Errant's wall is the first thing of substance from that slot, but I know that they're capable of writing walls as both alignments and I want to digest it when I'm less tired.

I don't have any problem at all if in the beginning of the game someone posts a bunch and doesn't do anything. (I have a habit of not taking anything seriously and goofing off for the first 5 or so pages if the mood strikes me.) I am interested in that wall though as the points were meh.

If by pointing out that your over generalizations are over generalized, not helpful, or convincing in any way, then sure I'm defending them. I look at it at looking past that and trying to figure out the actual read.

If your case is based on being able to read them really well then the overgeneralized stuff is not necessary and I need to cut through stuff I don't buy into to see something that makes sense.

Yes 500 posts later I am still voting them because I don't like there RVS I don't see the problem with that.

I have no idea if you're serious here.

But even if so, you're completely missing my point. You're making overgeneralizations about play in general and then saying oh I can read them.

The play should be about them in particular. You're saying no town would make a naked vote after one hour. That's just objectively wrong, and if you're going to claim no town do things I've seen town do all the time and do myself, I'm not going to take you seriously.

If you're going to talk about why it's specific to them, talk about that. Otherwise you're just blowing hot air.

i have no idea when these were posted but all they feel like is betrayal

[The Pied Piper]

can someone explain why they feel that way?

[The Pied Piper]

AHEM

[The Pied Piper]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Pied Piper]

Do you have some issue with me trying to get a handle on beeboy and his read on seniors for some reason???

no this did not factor in at all to my unhappiness

[The Pied Piper]

[The Pied Piper]

don't be a jerk face!

[The Pied Piper]

i didn't apologize at all

[The Pied Piper]

i did the opposite of apologize based on my level of offense

[The Pied Piper]

which was defcon 5, for the record

[The Pied Piper]

I don't believe that you don't know who wrote the most recent longer post.

[The Pied Piper]

But I'm willing to drop it.

[The Pied Piper]

Post like 582 don't come from Nacho but are Plotinus' bread and butter.

Yeah, that was me, and 604 onward is me again.

However if Nacho would like to trollfuck the game out with his funtimes pretending to be his partner he's welcome to alienate me. I have an idea of who's writing what but unless each of you want to take credit for what you post I'm going to have a hard time reading you.

He hasn't yet. I'd like to see him try though because I think I'd learn something about myself or how others see me if he did, if that makes sense. I have no idea how I come across most of the time.

I'm also willing to drop it. What are your thoughts on Axel?

I liked the big musical splashy entrance because it reminds me of anti's thing where he quotes song lyrics at the beginning of games and that was cool. I didn't like him getting bogged down in talking about hydrae in place of scumhunting but once he started scumhunting I was pleased.

I think he's on the wrong side of Mirhawk vs davesaz, but it's understandable because part of their argument was about him and Mirhawk was defending Axel from davesaz.

I can understand his points against Seniors and I like that when he lends his voice to beeboy's push, he does it with his own points instead of just signal boosting things that have already been said, though as I said, I'd like to give Seniors a bit of space to see what they do with it.

I don't think Axelrod makes sense as being scum together with Mirhawk or Seniors or Swordsworth (who nobody seems to be pushing at all in spite of his lacklustre posting).

[The Pied Piper]

Also, thank you, that answered my question.

[The Pied Piper]

Oh I have you're right derp
But she did wait to claim miller until like day 4 which is super shifty in itself
I don't think I've seen scum claim miller day 1 before

Bert in mafia with a quickness
VI can't remember his name in a cartoon themed game? My Little Pony some time back.

Two I know of off the top of my head.

Flavor claim would help if we have a flavor cop around. Miller claim won't help for cops, but could help for flavor cops.

bbmolla

in We Didn't Playtest This, too. Claimed it in his first post. Coasted all the way to 5p LYLO. He was basically treated like an innocent child because of his claim.

[The Pied Piper]

I personally found his early posts felt too much like drive-by sniping. The questions were all pretty good ones, but none of them really felt like they connected with the gamestate at all.

The Miller stuff definitely makes him very likely to be Scum.

He's also just sort of gone back to dave now that he can't vote pistachi0n anymore. I don't so much mind if someone's pushing something just to push something in the first few pages but it's strange to return an RVS push once the game is firmly out of RVS.

and omg you're town(!)

I am town for once! Counting this game, I've been town in 4 of my last 12 games! The tide is turning

Are you town too? I think mala would be playing differently if she were scum together with my current scumreads.

(Because beeboy, you literally have more posts than the bottom TWELVE posters combined.)

I love that you counted, though. Some more people have posted so he's down to only 23% of the thread. it was over 30% earlier. WHY am i keeping track of this?

Oh and ploti I'm not ignoring you.

It's okay! I know I sometimes write a lot of words. Talk to me when you have time.

(Also, to explain why I personally have zero problems with the Seniors wagon: they are acting exactly like they acted as Scum in a game a lot of us just got done with.)

That's good to know.

It's super blatant. Scum doesn't often say shit like that. Town doesn't usually care.

Agree. I think that post of Amihan's is too honest to be newbscum. I checked earlier and they don't have any completed scum games. None of the newbies do, except podoboq if that one night ultimate werewolf game counts (I'm not inclined to count it since he didn't know he was scum or who his buddy was). Snarky was scum in o617 but that's it.

If I was to buddy that hydra I would probably buddy first up to Ploti.

<3

[The Pied Piper]

sorry guys beeboy sucked the fun out of this for me a bit.

is it still just a lot of unproductive noise or

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so there is more content? sweet. I'll go back and read

I like that what hiplop took from this post was there have been developments to read instead of zeroing in on the first sentence and deciding that probably nothing had changed and that they were still being tunnelled, now by more people. It's been about 15 hours since this post, though, and while we've heard from errant since then, hiplop seems to have disappeared again.

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@Errant:

And mirhawk is cool for agreeing with me, and I like that vote too.

Aren't you worried that mirhawk might be whiteknighting you?

i guess it could be pressure? but davesaz is votable here

You've played with davesaz in a few games now, in ny192 where you were a lategame replacement and he was lynched on day 1 but I know you put considerable effort into your catchup, perhaps enough to get somewhat of a feel for him, and in o615 where you were town together, and for a while in ny183 where you were town together before you replaced out.

You dislike his post and you call him voteable, but is he scummy? Are you scumreading him? Do you think that he is scummy but not scum?

beeboy is oozing this vibe of "HOLY SHIT I CAUGHT SCUM I'M SO EXCITED" he's legitimately getting into the game and I like that, having a really hard time believing that it's faked.

I like this point especially since it's about you.

THIS IS EP
ROB GUESS WHAT!!!! I GOT INTO BERKELEY

Congrats!

I'm getting the feeling that piper is asking a few questions that are somewhat directionless but that feeling is REALLY HARD to grab ahold of and probably nonexistent. basically a real nullread here and I'm really curious as to why spiff thought they were scum

Because I wrote too many words. Like I do in every single game that I play when I forget and post when I'm tired/distracted/not feeling well/upset about something else/etc.

Anyway, I've done two alignment indicative things so far. Someday, someone will be able to read me.

I like mirhawk's entrance posts.
okay i read over mirhawk's current posts and there is seriously no reason for there to be a scumread on mirhawk.

Please address wrong lynch's and my points against mirhawk. This isn't good enough.

podoboq has a potential scum iso.
check it.

I need to think some more about podoboq. What do you think of his reply to your question about whether he feels disconnected from the game?

I understand that you don't have to have cohesion in a group of players that you pick out to be scum, but the fact that you think all 4 [tictac, ogre, seniors, beeboy] are scummy to some degree shows that you aren't actually evaluating and analyzing your reads to see if they are correct via what the game state looks like.

Your current bet for the scumteam is podoboq, davesaz, axel, cakez, and ogre? Can you talk some about the dynamics between this group of players? (or some other group of players if i guessed wrong?)

[The Pied Piper]

I want to prioritize trying to read the hydras but it's so much harder than it seems at first. :/

I like The Wrong Lynch because it's like they're saying exactly what I'm thinking about Mirhawk, but in a more understandable and experienced way. If that's naive of me you can say it but so far that's the only hydra I think I'm actually connecting with.

How do you feel about my points about Mirhawk?

It looks like you don't have any completed games with any of the hydra heads, and you haven't played with hydra before. Why are we your priority sort? As a good place to start as any, or something more? Are there any questions you could ask us that would help you sort us?

In most of the games I've played here people tend to just call me aggressive, townread me, and then ignore me afterward.

Do you like being ignored? Why?

Are you seeking to be written off as town or for people to work together with you as town?

[The Pied Piper]

See, this is my problem with the FS slot. It feels like most of their contribution is discounting the people on their wagon, rather than discussing relevant parts of the game. Like, the Miller CC and Mirhan's response to it seems like the topic of the moment, and FS comes in with this when nobody's even discussing that wagon.

This could just be apathy for the game after feeling like he was tunneled by a loud and stubborn player, but this attitude isn't helpful for town.

That post looked to me like he hadn't read the thread since his previous post. Have you ever played a game where someone got discouraged like this as either alignment? How would you distinguish between scum apathy and town apathy?

I don't understand all of your guys vocabulary yet, and I'll try to pick up everything from here until the end, but just wanted to warn you guys that I've missed some stuff.

It's okay to ask questions if you need help.

Also post 349 gives me the heebies.

Me too! What about it don't you like specifically?

In my skim, I was very confident in my reads on beeboy and Cakez as town. Both of them reading FS as scum makes me question FS pretty strongly.

Which points that beeboy and Cakez made against Seniors resonates most strongly with you and why?

I considered replacing out, but I think this is a good opportunity to learn, so I'm gonna stay the course.

I like this attitude.

If your last few posts are legitimate, and you're willing to engage in the new things that have happened in the game which are unrelated to the wagon on you, then I'm totally happy to unvote here. If in my reread, I reevaluate your slot more positively, then I'm totally happy to unvote here.

Why are you telling them what to do to earn your unvote? Do you think this task would be too difficult for them to complete, if scum?

[The Pied Piper]

Yo so I think Podo is town because his posts are actually good and Seniors is tunneling him for bad reasons.

What do you like about his posts specifically?

[The Pied Piper]

It's not due to any hydra player in particular, but I feel like hydra in my experience so far just need more time devoted to reading them. If I'm going to be paying special attention to anyone it'll be hydras especially so I can figure out who is posting what.

As for your second question I'd love to be written off as town... who wouldn't? Nobody gets anything done if they just have to keep defending themselves. I'd also want to work together with people as town, but I am still trying to figure out how I can bring that to the table. Some people have issues with my playstyle and I guess I don't blame them.

All of this doesn't matter if I can't get any reads done. I want to take a step back and look at everyone sometime today.

If you click the names in our signature and skim through our games it might give you a feel for our different playstyles. There's lots of little things like how we tend to format posts that give us away as ourselves. But we are a team and we are collectively responsible for what we post.

In this particular game, the hydras are all made up of more experienced players who will probably not be easy to read.

I think we are defining "written off" differently. The way I define it (dismissed as town, seen as town but not a town member worth listening to, acknowledged to be town and not in danger of being lynched but not being able to secure the lynches I want for whatever reason) would drive me mad.

I want to both be townread and to be able to get things done. It sounds like you do too, you're just using the words differently than I was. I asked, because scumhunting aggressively can be a way to be both townread and able to get things done, and when you said you didn't want to scumhunt aggressively I wondered what you wanted to happen instead.

There will be time after your spring break; large games usually last a few months.

Agree. I think that post of Amihan's is too honest to be newbscum. I checked earlier and they don't have any completed scum games. None of the newbies do, except podoboq if that one night ultimate werewolf game counts (I'm not inclined to count it since he didn't know he was scum or who his buddy was).

As for this, it's just a weak reason to townread me, sorry. I'm assuming most newbie accounts (like me) have played mafia elsewhere before coming here. I think if you want to categorize people as new, the best way to do that would be to read their personality. Though I have been acting more new than experienced this game so far.

This is doing nothing to dissuade me from townreading you. I have about three reasons for townreading this post alone.

(Unrelatedly, I was newnew when I joined a year ago. I had been playing mafia for a single day on my homesite when I joined here. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing for at least two months. It can take some time to adapt to a new site meta if you're accustomed to playing elsewhere, but I guess it's easier to hit the ground running if you have prior experience with the game.)

[The Pied Piper]

Plotinus is V/LA for a week. I've had some bad news.

I may still be posting. we'll see.

[The Pied Piper]

<3

[The Pied Piper]

Your assumption is correct; I am here to pick up Plotinus's song where theirs left off.

And then, when they return, our individual melodies will merge into a beautiful song that will crack this game open like an egg flung from a skyscraper onto concrete.

[The Pied Piper]

:thumbs up:
ALSO HI NACHOOOO. I MISSED YOU TOO AND YOU'RE HYDRA'ING WITH PLOTI SO THIS MAKES ME VERY HAPPEH.

<3!
I've been excited about this game for a long time, especially getting to finally hydra with Plot! Our hydra name and signature feel perfect together, and I'm really excited at how our two play styles will blend; I feel like Plot is able to cover some of my weaknesses (they are thorough and consistent where I am not, they are better at collecting a lot of different information and putting it in one place, they are better are getting information from cold meta reads than I am), and I've been good and patient and keeping my number of games down and actually have enough time to play and put enough effort, so I feel like I'm in a good place for this game.

Alright, so far I haven't seen anything out of place for Nacho. So I'm unsure why you're focusing him for a sort so early on. Also then there's the fact Ploti is in that hydra too.

Sakura is one of those players who tends to focus on me first if we're in a playerlist together.

Although I have come to the realization that despite disagreeing with all your play as soon as I said I town read you it isn't necessarily scummy it is just not good town play. It is towny to discredit a town read on yourself in my opinion which makes me want to believe you are town, but I could also see this as an attempt at looking aggressive since I don't like your reason for discrediting it and how you discredited it which is scum. I want to sort more but since you aren't necessarily scum 1v1ing isn't how I want to do it.

Liking this post a lot; in particular, it shows good depth in his thought process pretty early on (there's no reason for beeboy as scum to drop his Sakura scumread and move to seniors unless he's afraid of Sakura, which doesn't seem like it's the case). I liked the way he handled Friendless Seniors earlier, seems like the same sort of tone I'd adopt as town with someone who I like but was trying to read.

True Ogre exists.

Witholding vote for now, not convinced that major conversationalists contain scum.

However Seniors could certainly be scum with what they've said so far and I like beeboy for the push. So I'm conflicted as I don't really buy the Sakura-scum argument but will entertain it.

Like Wrong Lynch's posting quantity so far, but the quality is lukewarm. Also waiting to see more from nacho-hydra, although I like the question he did ask.

Axelrod also involved in hydra-discussion after some comments in 56, 61, 68 which appear quite defensive/elusive. Keeping an eye on.

Skybird, greetings to your ancestors. What do you think of davesaz' posting so far? I would like to compare impressions.

I've played one or two games with Dave but not too recently. I liked his entrance. He jumped in and questioned something he saw. I also agreed with post 90 where he saw BeeBoy's buddy question as a potential trap. I read it the same way. Overall I'm leaning town on him. How about you? What do you think? Any players that stick out good or bad?

Skybird, why do you reach out to True Ogre first?

Don't like Beeboy's flipflop on Sakura. Felt like there was no dedication or serious belief in it with how fast he got on and off.
Seniors's Snarky vote is bad as well. Not enough to justify it and Snarky is definitely not someone you get a serious scumread on from one post.

I think that you're making a mistake and being overly critical of early votes; I wouldn't expect beeboy to have serious belief or dedication on a read he formed on page 5; likewise, I disagree with all concerned parties that the Snarky vote by Seniors was suspicious. It was early game, Seniors placed an easy vote. It's fine for pressing early.

So, so far, I like Mirhawk, and I like Sir Cakes. I also really like TicTac's first post.

I am not a fan of Sakura, or Davesaz.

@Sakura: (per post #64) did you

really

think that I was advocating for a "policy" lynch of all Hydras? Really?

@Davesaz: please explain to me how you feel I "pulled back" on "the Hydra thing" (post #69). Do you think I am advocating for a policy lynch of all Hydras?

Wrong Lynch is fine

Unvote

. Pied Piper is also fine. Friendless Seniors hasn't done anything.

@Beeboy: when you say you know how Friendless Seniors would react to you, are you talking about one of the hydra heads in particular? Or is this a Hydra that you have played with before? I don't get your conviction given that Seniors hasn't done much of anything.

I'm not sure why you have different reads on THE WRONG LYNCH and Sakura here; if I remember correctly, both of them thought that your "policy lynch of all hydras" thing was serious, and that's the only reason you give for disliking Sakura.

I agree with the Mirhawk and Sir Cakes reads at this very moment; I thought Mirhawk's aggression was pretty reasonable towards dave early game (although I don't really agree with it; dave is like that sometimes), and I like SirCakes bucking against beeboy early game, considering he was the only player who was active and aggressive at that time and bucking against it seemed like a pretty decent move if scum.

Tictac what part of my read on seniors is fake and scummy?

The part where you have a strong read on a slot that hasn't done anything.
How is this difficult to get?

Originally, you said that beeboy's push seemed exaggerated to the point where it wasn't supposed to look serious, hence not alignment indicative. I agreed with this; when did you change your mind?

True Ogre's entrance post is pretty balls.
Withholding vote is fine, ESPECIALLY not after beeboy tells him to vote us and then ogre does.
Look at how terrible withholding vote is there. Ogre OPENLY admits to being unsure of people that they want to sort, that they are considering to maybe be scum, and then just... doesn't vote. nope.
"I will entertain Sakura argument" is basically saying "I don't want to commit yet (which is fine) but i'm not gonna do anything about it (which isn't fine)"
"keeping an eye on axelrod" uh huh.

I don't like this read.
True Ogre's entrance post said that he was town reading beeboy and considering following him onto seniors. He also says that he's considering Axelrod as scum. Beeboy, his townread that he's considering sheeping says "beeboy! sheep me!". He follows. What exactly is unreasonable about that?

That's stupid sorry

PEdit: It's fine for an initial read but I'm not buying that people are being convinced by beeboy's other points and I don't really like some people's behavior around the wagon (i.e Pied Piper)

What about Plot's behavior around the wagon did you dislike?

@Nacho: Weren't you on Disney Upick? hiplop was there (town him at least).

I am guessing you saw a Plotinus post and thought it was me, although I'm confused by this question in general since it implies I said I didn't play with hiplop when both Plotinus and I have.

Does my lack of vote bother you, then, or something else?

I feel like you devoted more time to meta talk than was necessary. hiplop hasn't really done enough yet for that discussion to be useful and it looks like filler content. Reminds me of scum!Plot in History where you kinda droned on about things that didn't matter.

Your fixation with tictac specifically is weird too? Like you bombard him with questions right from the get go for no clear reason. It makes me think you want to stroke beeboy's ego and goad his tunnel by nitpicking at someone who isn't really buying into it.

What do you think of my point that not doing anything is, in itself, scummy?

And I don't buy that you feel this way less than 24 hours into the game.

And Nacho hasn't really done anything that looks town so yeah I'm voting you

For the record, the reason I responded to this as harshly as I did was because Plot was bothered by someone telling them that they were "droning on about things that didn't matter" when they were trying their best and I know very well how infuriating that is so I dropped in the game to defend them. Thank you for getting the memo and backing off.

I was going to complain about the lack of Sakura posts, then remembered Sakura is V/LA

ATM scum reads of varying degrees on Tictac, Seniors, Ogre, and Beeboy.

"scumread on the people beeboy is pushing AND beeboy"

this guy is fencesitting, stirring the pot and trying to get momentum on our wagon for seriously shoddy reasons.

VOTE: sircakez
sorry ep, this is the guy who needs to die

I don't really think that scum reading both sides of the argument is impossible or unreasonable from town.
I did like your "I don't think how much we're being discussed" post because it's not something I think you would say as scum to a wagon without anything behind it?

These stances make no sense. Like, he is basically scumreading anyone making any sort of impact in the game. This is a super opportunistic position in the game and needs to be lynched.

You have this backwards; scum reading anyone making any sort of impact in the game means that he's scum reading anyone with the ability to push lynches in the game which means that he's scum reading the people he should be buddying up to which means that he's probably town.

this is you looking surface at my scumplay and not actually understanding how people play as scum. I look ath things that i find objectively scummy and push them. If you cared to read the deadthread in invaders you would actually know that. Do your meta research, don't go "oh hey EP did this one thing as scum in one game I played with them so they must be scum ya ya?"

I liked this post too.

this is a mindbogglingly bad readslist. I have no idea how you're looking at the game this way.

The only read you seem to disagree with Cakez about is beeboy.

being tunneled on by two of the most stubborn players =/= fun

You are appealing to cakes here.

This accusation is dumb. Why would hiplop appeal to the player he is currently trying to mislynch and also a player without any real sway?

I'm not sure I feel great about a hiplop scum read right now; don't like the slot's main pushes yet but I've liked a few things tonally and hiplop being frustration and not having any fun feels pretty real and so I don't like continuing to push there right now.

There were plenty of different ways to answer those questions. The second one was so open ended you could have said just about anything and still answered it.
What is it about my push that's not null? Because from here that looks like a poorly justified omgus vote to me.

But this push is starting to get stale; right now, it feels like you are happy to continue a push on davesaz that no one really cares about while much, much bigger things are happening (beeboy-Seniors). Needs more pizzaz.

being tunneled on by two of the most stubborn players =/= fun

like this actually pisses me off

Don't ignore valid concerns I have and pass off calling you out on it as tunneling and stubborn

This feels town, but I would like to say that hiplop is just feeling sort of frustrated and overwhelmed early game which is why he's being as harsh as it is. It can be annoying early game to have to fight back against someone who doesn't feel like they are actually reading and comprehending their posts because they think they caught scum based on something small and stupid and people are buying into it for god knows what reason.

I don't really get why calling Snarky's vote a "push" instead of a vote was a big deal. Do you think that voting someone for silently sheeping onto a wagon led by someone who was obviously loud and not budging was unreasonable just because Snarky was lynchbait?

@Seniors
Also, what the hells up with that Snarky business?

Whats weird? B has a point as well, do you not remember him from the game you just played or did he play differently in that game?

I don't like that you were ignoring the "null meta business" but suddenly become a little more interested as the wagon gains momentum.
I wouldn't really mind it if you just started scum reading Seniors based on hiplop's latest post but "that Snarky business" makes it seem like you don't know what's going on with it and just because Snarky was scummy as town in a different game means he's an invalid push in this one.

I haven't seen millers immediately claim flavor in games I've played with them, so I'll follow suit. You'll know when it's relevant. Or when I'm dead, whatever comes first.

I liked that Pistachio refused to claim flavor; if she was fake claiming miller as scum as a gambit, she very likely would have had flavor to back it up so refusing seems strange for scum.

Yooooooo

VOTE: beeboy

I'm a miller.

Tip: if you want to fakeclaim Miller as scum, you should probably wait until everyone else has posted so you can be sure nobody else is an actual Town Miller.

VOTE: pistachion

Would be impressed if this is a scum gambit by Amihan. It seems completely possible to me that pistachio decided to fake claim miller as a scum gambit but decidedly less possible than Amihan did. Don't really have a significant read on Pistachio yet.

What are your thoughts on me and seniors Sakura?

Still not done reading.
But while your push on me was bad, i think that probably both of you are town.

I'm following why you think beeboy is town thanks to the Wisdom comparison, but why do you think Friendless Seniors is town?'

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller?

I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

Not really sure what you mean by the bolded?
Do you mean that you're not comfortable with Amihan's alignment if Pistach flips town?

beeboy Seniors read is exaggerated to the point that I don't think it's even supposed to look real. Crosses over into not alignment indicative.

A whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing. Comes into what seems like an accusation at beeboy's read and nullifies it with the end.

I disagree that this was the case; I thought that tictac's observation that Beeboy was pushing hard enough on nothing where it "wasn't supposed to be real" was actual a surprisingly insightful one, my problem was backing away from this later.

I wanted to make a really really really long wall but I'm starting to chicken out because I'm afraid no one will read it if I don't split it up, so reluctantly splitting it up

[The Pied Piper]

No he obviously did realize it, and then decided it looked bad and backtracked on it two posts later. Yeah that's a thought process people have, I've done it before as scum.
No voting there sucks because there was definitely enough to make scumreads from at that point. He didn't say anything about changing his mind until prodded pages later, he just naked voted.
Yeah I am

True Ogre said he was leaning that way and was holding his vote. bee boy then asked him to please vote seniors and he did. I don't see that as backtracking. Soemtimes people vote when people ask then to early game. He didn't change his mind pages later. bee boy asked him and he voted. You don't need to have reasons with the vote as they were in his earlier post.

Be prepared to scum read me then because I am the waffle queen.

True Ogre said he was leaning that way but had concerns because of the Sakura push, but beeboy's pedited post erased those concerns and made him more comfortable following.

[The Pied Piper]

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

This strongly reads like scum preparing for what they know to be a pistachion townflip.

I don't think that it's natural that Mirhawk questioned the claim in the way that he did and ended up following along anyways; the earlier votes made sense because they didn't really consider the two millers possibility and they didn't really consider the idea that Amihan was scum counterclaiming but Mirhawk did and he went forward with it anyways.

I'm not really sure it requires a pistachio town flip, though; sure, he could have been doing it because he got greedy and wanted to cash in on two mislynches instead of just one but I could also see him expressing skepticism and voting along to throw mud at you without looking scummy for defending his partner in case she was going to be lynched soon after.

Are you a miller or not?

Stop implying you've a miller and spit it out.

Are you a miller?

Pfft. I don't think Ami's even a miller.

It doesn't make sense to post these things and still have your vote on Pistachio.

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

I now see that I interpreted your first post incorrectly; why did beeboy's Sakura push bother you so much?

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

VOTE: Mirhawk

Going to vote and then talk to GM about it. If she feels differently we will certainly change our vote, but I am frankly starting to see not-town here.

I'm not sure how if she doesn't believe that Ami cc'd, but is willing to jump onto the building train that was happening that early page on.

I'm certainly a lot more sure of Mirhawk being scum than I was when I was reading early yesterday.

~M

I am revoking my town read on you.

Can we talk about why Mirhawk is your strongest townread? I can maybe understand a townread on his early play and I guess it's possible to townread his later play a little bit, but strongest townread? Really?

It reads to me as an implied CC without explicitly stating that she is indeed a miller.

She told pistachio that she shouldn't claim miller when there is an Actual Town Miller in the setup.
She asked someone what they thought about "her claim".
She referenced the possibility of two millers in the setup a couple of times.

You really shouldn't need more than that; when she's implied that she is miller as heavily as she has, it's not like she's going to get away with retracting and going "I never said I was town Miller so no one can be mad at me!!".

I am with Mirhawk Ami was being incredibly weird about the claim tbh.
+ the follow up push on Mirhawk was really baseless.

Oh look both Mirhawk and Beeboy saying the same thing yet both of them voted Ami's CC on Pistahio. Both of them had the same actions on wanting a flavor claim && a claim.

I'm positive that one of these two are probably not town.

~M

Except that when beeboy started having doubts, he unvoted and went elsewhere. Mirhawk didn't.

I did not like Mirhawk's reaction. It smelled of not wanting to get caught believing the CC too easily. But I have often had the same attitude of not being sure when I'm town, so that leaves me with mixed feelings.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with not being sure, but I do think that it was weird that he seemed to be really unsure but then voted Pistch like he believed the claim and then left the vote on Pistach despite obviously not believing the claim at all. Although, couldn't tell you the scum motivation for it other than maybe he's one of those people who is really crappy at faking read switches?

Sorry for any excessively delayed responses, I'm currently out of town.

Just reading over everything that's happened, I'd like Ami to clarify themself on what exactly they're trying to say pertaining to Pistachio's Miller claim. Is it a CC? A hinting at it? Just trying to see how people react?

My current scumreads at this time would probably be somewhere in the block of Hiplop, Cakez, and Beeboy. I have a question for you three: What if Pistachio is shot and flips town? What does this suggest about Ami, and would that warrant an instant vote?

@the late RVS matter, I can only be around early morning and laaate evening for this week. Sorry about that.

Why did you have those three scum reads and why are you specifically interested in that question?
This post makes it seem like you just picked three scum reads out of a hat and asked some questions just to make it look like you're doing something; it really doesn't look like there's any form of legitimate thought process behind this at all.

EP I have a question about this post. When you made it you expected me to react to, to avoid beating around the bush normally I get really pissed off. If I got pissed of by your remarks which is what you expected me to do, what would you have done if people started to scum read me and push me? I really don't see the motive in you trying to get me to react to you calling my wagon shit.
Like it is really bothering me I can see tons of reasons why scum would do it but literally 0 reasons town would.

here are several examples of what I would expect someone to respond to me.
1. Justify your push on us based on the reasons that I have attacked.
2. Respond to my attack on your push.
3. Be convinced that your push is bad.
You have done none of these.

throwing out some townreads: spiffeh, beeboy, wronglynch, amihan.
i'm going out so I won't be around. This is just a quick post, i only did a skim of the most recent pages.

-EP

If the goal here is to get beeboy to stop tunneling you, it seems smarter to engage him on the few points than he's brought up as opposed to calling his post garbage and then asking him to do something about it.

On a side note though, liking the new rap battle persona.

We see the popular stances being taken in 452 which isn't necessarily bad but it's a scum puzzle piece.
455 picking and choosing the contentless beeboy posts, ignoring the actual reasons (no matter how terrible they are, they're still reasons) then says "hey I'll come to my own conclusions, I'm a free thinker!!! Townread me!"

Check this out too. I don't see a difference between dramonic's axel posts and the posts that podo picks out of beeboy's iso. But no "hey dramonic you suck" from podoboq HMM? HMM?!?

455 was focused more on an attitude than beeboy's push as a whole.
I don't understand the "I'm a free thinker townread me!!!!!" point even a little bit; I think that podo didn't like beeboy being condescending and was telling him that he wasn't going to sheep just because beeboy told him to.

Disagree with the Cakez push.
Just played with town-cakez and the quality of his day 1 reads really isn't alignment indicative.

Why do you think that his reads are bad?

Unvote;

Vote: pistachi0n

Unless Amiham comes back and says her claim was, in fact, some kind of gambit, this is just what needs to happen. I don't believe in Two millers.

Will say that I think that it's pretty foolish to push for pistachio just because she was counterclaimed; I don't like that she's done nothing except claim miller the entire game so far, but this is an easy vote and easy place for scum to hide and will leave us in the middle of nowheresville if we're not looking at behavior.

Ami posted before I claimed Miller, didn't day anything about it until she CC'd me. Odd.

And why isn't she voting me? Because she knows I'll flip town, making her look suspicious?

What?

Why would Amihan counterclaim as scum unless she wanted to mislynch you?

I like pist's reaction to the claim. I don't think scum would actually counter by saying "well technically you DID post first" especially when that was factually incorrect anyway.

I think that was probably a genuine mistake regardless of alignment. Don't you?

And which I was hoping was him kicking into gear (and which I was town-nudging him for). I have a fairly specific way of reading him relating to certain types of trolling and aggression under pressure. I can't say I've seen it yet but I recognise and appreciate his town-play when it is present.

I can see why you thought that was me, but it wasn't, and I'm perfectly capable of playing a calm, reasonable game with a minimal amount of trolling. I am more than just a one trick pony, True Ogre.

[The Pied Piper]

I'll townread Ami for now since she says it was a gambit for reaction-testing.

I agree Mirhawk's reaction was scummy, but one thing I notice along with it was Mirhawk's reaction when I first claimed miller--"ugh" followed by "I had a bad experience." So the combination of those posts makes me think he just doesn't want to play with a miller. Mirhawk--what was your experience and how has it shaped how you play the game?

I'm going back to beeboy for now, though.

VOTE: beeboy

How was Mirhawk's reaction not scummy even if he hadn't played with millers before?

True Ogre's entrance post is pretty balls.
Withholding vote is fine, ESPECIALLY not after beeboy tells him to vote us and then ogre does.
Look at how terrible withholding vote is there. Ogre OPENLY admits to being unsure of people that they want to sort, that they are considering to maybe be scum, and then just... doesn't vote. nope.
"I will entertain Sakura argument" is basically saying "I don't want to commit yet (which is fine) but i'm not gonna do anything about it (which isn't fine)"
"keeping an eye on axelrod" uh huh.

Can you put this into English though?

What's wrong with him not voting?

I asked this question too!

If your case is based on being able to read them really well then the overgeneralized stuff is not necessary and I need to cut through stuff I don't buy into to see something that makes sense.

The only part of beeboy's push that makes sense is the part where he said that hiplop was going for an easy push, which is why hiplop's frustration with everything makes as much sense as it does.

It seems pretty clear to me that it is a genuine push, though.

I am starting to get tired so will try to continue to channel being Zen and thoughtful, but if I end up missing a bunch of things and speaking gibberish then that's why.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm not sure you understand me.

[The Pied Piper]

If you were in Pistach's shoes, noticed that the person who counterclaimed you posted first without claiming miller (and claiming miller in your first post is site standard), then counterclaimed after you claimed, would you point it out if town? If scum?

[The Pied Piper]

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

I now see that I interpreted your first post incorrectly; why did beeboy's Sakura push bother you so much?

So much? No. Interested because I liked Sakura's entrance and also wanting to sort you, which I actually relate to a sakura-town with you in the game? Sure.
I was wondering where beeboy was goint with that push. Came in to give a couple of opinions. Beeboy backed off sakura (who I was happy to see their sort on you).
Shrugged and voted seniors.
However I'm still kind of waiting for sakura's sort on you because I'd like to compare notes.

I'm mostly wondering how your uneasiness with beeboy's push on Sakura translated into not wanting to follow beeboy onto Seniors.

[The Pied Piper]

Ami posted before I claimed Miller, didn't day anything about it until she CC'd me. Odd.

And why isn't she voting me? Because she knows I'll flip town, making her look suspicious?

Is your point that the error here doesn't point to either town or scum because the error seems genuine either way?

If so I agree on that. But I don't think a scum pistachion would choose to fight a counterclaim by calling it a suspicious scum fakeclaim and voting me, rather than trying to either posit that 2 millers is possible or that I was gambitting a miller claim as town.

Ah, gotcha.
I don't agree that she wouldn't try to fight you; if you're scum and someone claims role evidence that points to you as scum, I don't think it's an unnatural response to point to the other person as scum.

Does that make sense?

[The Pied Piper]

Can we talk about why Mirhawk is your strongest townread? I can maybe understand a townread on his early play and I guess it's possible to townread his later play a little bit, but strongest townread? Really?

Uhh you basically just said except I must like his early play more than yours.

What?

[The Pied Piper]

Off the top of my head, I like you, Spiffeh, Amihan, Cakez, Mala/GM. I like some other people for other reasons, but those are the big ones.

[The Pied Piper]

The trolling I've seen has only ever been scum-aligned. Smiley faces, schmoozing, dancing over the thread and not engaging. I'm taking this most recent with a small grain of salt because obviously when it's pointed out as scummy, a behaviour changes if scum. That said I appreciate your direct engagement.

In my opinion, the only one of these things that is actually a scumtell is "not engaging".
I'm interested in who you are because a lot of my recent scumgames have been breaking the meta of "Nacho only trolls as town".

[The Pied Piper]

And if you don't like me but you like mala/gm how come you ignored me asking you to talk to me about them when I was concerned with mala?

What?

[The Pied Piper]

Hmm good morning's posts look 10 times better than mala's which is weird.

Nacho when you get here talk to me please?

I haven't gotten to this post yet.
I never said that I didn't like you, but I haven't really gotten to you posting anything yet.
I have a feeling I'm going to end up town reading you because of the Mala things that seem to be brewing, but I'd rather wait until I get to it.

[The Pied Piper]

In either case I totally called that shit and whoever it was that said I was setting myself up to say that (TWL?) Can eat me cause I was totally right.

Anyways just realized pretty much every person on my wagon (except maybe cakes) is my scum pool (which kind of shitty but whatever).

Dave's scum. I'll probably say a bunch of stuff about it later when I have access to a pc.
Unvote
Vote: Davep

Why didn't this happen ages ago?

I don't like how you just move back to the vote you were pushing at the very beginning.

(I did not remember posting the stuff on Page 24 at all.)

Post like 582 don't come from Nacho but are Plotinus' bread and butter.
However if Nacho would like to trollfuck the game out with his funtimes pretending to be his partner he's welcome to alienate me. I have an idea of who's writing what but unless each of you want to take credit for what you post I'm going to have a hard time reading you.

I'm also willing to drop it. What are your thoughts on Axel?

Heh.
I liked "trollfuck the game out with his funtimes", but I haven't quite pretended to be Plotinus yet, although I am purposefully keeping our posting styles enjoyably similar.

My style still comes across in my writing, no matter how I format it. If me typing like Plotinus and you missing out on reading a bunch of the tonal or trolling things that you can't read anyways and actually focusing on my reads and content produced, then that will probably end up being a good thing.

I don't really have an Axel read yet; I didn't really see him do anything outside of vote Pistach and Friendless Seniors, which isn't exactly revolutionary. Why are you interested in him?

[The Pied Piper]

I'm mostly wondering how your uneasiness with beeboy's push on Sakura translated into not wanting to follow beeboy onto Seniors.

And then following? Sorry don't get it.

I might just be not explaining myself very well, hold on.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm mostly wondering how your uneasiness with beeboy's push on Sakura translated into not wanting to follow beeboy onto Seniors.

beeboy pushes on Seniors.
Reading beeboy as town.
Reading Seniors as potentially scum.
Reading Sakura as town.
beeboy continues to push on seniors but pushes on Sakura.
??? waiting. Post my first post
beeboy retracts push on Sakura. Didn't actually expect that, but it strikes me as town-thinking to change opinion.

Followed beeboy onto seniors, at a whim actually. Liked him, disliked Seniors.

I'm obviously going to need to check out Seniors better than pure sheeping soon. However I'm comfy here right now.

It was my understanding that you were thinking of following beeboy onto Seniors but was uncomfortable with doing so because of beeboy's read on Sakura. What did beeboy's read on Sakura have to do with you trusting beeboy's read on Seniors?

[The Pied Piper]

I'm sorry waht? Are you having trouble reading my first post and the second post?

I don't know what you're confused about and because I'm town reading you and don't have a particular need to get this addressed let's drop it and talk Axel.

[The Pied Piper]

I don't really have an Axel read yet; I didn't really see him do anything outside of vote Pistach and Friendless Seniors, which isn't exactly revolutionary. Why are you interested in him?

[The Pied Piper]

Ah.
Thank you, that makes sense and answers my question.

[The Pied Piper]

And while I really don't want to leave at this moment, it's way past my bed time and I need to go.

My two big scum reads right now are Swords and Mirhawk; I think the way Mirhawk handled the pistach situation (in particular not believing Amihan at all but still voting pistachio) was really really weird and I had a really bad reaction to Sword's post where he gave three seemingly random scum reads and then asked them all a generic question because I couldn't see any sort of town thought process behind it but I could see new scum thinking that it looked like he was doing something.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm liking it. The plot part in your hydra I don't even based on the engagement we've had so far. That seemed absolutely irrelevant to finding scum. What's your take on Axel. Plot avoided it.

You said I avoided Axel but I didn't. I am townleaning him:

I'm also willing to drop it. What are your thoughts on Axel?

I liked the big musical splashy entrance because it reminds me of anti's thing where he quotes song lyrics at the beginning of games and that was cool. I didn't like him getting bogged down in talking about hydrae in place of scumhunting but once he started scumhunting I was pleased.

I think he's on the wrong side of Mirhawk vs davesaz, but it's understandable because part of their argument was about him and Mirhawk was defending Axel from davesaz.

I can understand his points against Seniors and I like that when he lends his voice to beeboy's push, he does it with his own points instead of just signal boosting things that have already been said, though as I said, I'd like to give Seniors a bit of space to see what they do with it.

I don't think Axelrod makes sense as being scum together with Mirhawk or Seniors or Swordsworth (who nobody seems to be pushing at all in spite of his lacklustre posting).

@podoboq regarding 726 oh i haven't read that game yet beyond post game commentary / seeing somebody talk about it somewhere (in a mafia discussion thread i think but I can't remember which one) and saying something about scum losing because they didn't know they were scum and played too town and I just assumed that was you. thanks for the correction.



There's another post of podoboq's that I wanted to reply to but I don't have it in me right now.

Mala, I saw you replied and I appreciate it and I will reply when I can <3

[The Pied Piper]

Anyways just realized pretty much every person on my wagon (except maybe cakes) is my scum pool (which kind of shitty but whatever).

Picked up on something else that bothered me that I forgot to mention last night: when did Amihan and TWL end up in your scum pool and why? There's not really anything in your posts about why you were scum reading either of them.

Eh.

(And I don't even like sircakez that much.)

Why not?

Where did the misreported occur?

Mala said that she was more sure of Mirhawk being scum today than yesterday (which doesn't imply that she was scum reading yesterday), while beeboy said that he had a problem with her saying that she was scum reading Mirhawk yesterday.

Cakez, can you clarify for me your read on Sakura and beeboy? I know that you think beeboy waffled, and I agree with you, but where does that leave you on reading their alignments?

Sakura has been solidly town for me pretty much the whole game.
Beeboy is a slight scum read for me, he's improving past his initial waffle/Seniors tunnel.

I think by "clarify", podo meant "give reasons for thinking the way you are thinking".
How is Beeboy improving? His play looks almost identical to the early game play that you disliked unless you're seeing some interesting evolution that I'm not.

Where were the few times you explained it? Pretty sure you answered and I responded. I haven't played much with Sakura either, but her wanting to sort nacho right away is standard. If you haven't played with someone I don't know why it would even spark your notice. Furthermore, you pointing out that nothing was out of the ordinary when he hadn't posted beyond a couple rvs posts feels off.

Right now my concern is that you are either scum with nacho and you did some early discrediting to stop someone from sorting him or you're scum trying to get on his good side.

I'm not really sure I understand what point you're making here.

It seems a simpler answer to me that Mala misremembered Sakura's early approach towards me in games (which was what her initial response to you was about); if we were scum together, I think that I probably would mention to her the people who I was expecting to be specifically trying to read me, and if she was trying to get on my good side, I don't really think that it would look like this?

Saying that I hadn't done anything out of the ordinary is equivalent to me not doing anything alignment indicative which means you two are saying exactly the same thing about my early posts unless I'm missing something big.

I'm liking Amihan's latest posts a lot for weird reasoning I can't quite articulate now, but I'll try again tomorrow.

Hey Nacho,

thoughts on FS and Mirhawk and tammy please

~M

I'm not really sure on FS, but I'm leaning town there on the moment based on some of EP's posting.
Mirhawk seems scummy to me.
Tammy's town.

Hey Nacho,

thoughts on FS and Mirhawk and tammy please

~M

yayayay

Does this mean that you're final admitting you really don't know how to read me after?

(Not being bitchy, this really does make me happy. It's a lot lot lot easier to deal with someone suspecting you when they admit they can't really read you than when they think they can and you're as town as you can be and you're dealing with suspicion.)

I feel zippidy doo dah!

I'll respond to your post later. In the middle of something right now. But I do want to ask why you thought I was scum reading the Pied Piper?

now while i know you didn't intend it this way, this was a post that wasn't leading anywhere productive.

[The Pied Piper]

I think by "clarify", podo meant "give reasons for thinking the way you are thinking".
How is Beeboy improving? His play looks almost identical to the early game play that you disliked unless you're seeing some interesting evolution that I'm not.

I mean, his tunnel died off mostly and I haven't seen any more waffling so it was an improvement to me.
Skybird where did we play together before where you scumread me and I wasn't scum O.o

Why were you town reading Sakura?

[The Pied Piper]

Anyways I'm just trying to engage Nacho into the game. He seems to be ignoring it while posting in another thread and that's bothering me. :\

Can't really respond to this directly, but the reasons I avoid a thread are usually more meaningful than "I am avoiding the thread because I am afraid to post because I am scum!".

Oh but I will say this. I don't have a scum read on Pied Piper and I never said I did. My vote is on my rvs vote because I haven't decided where I want to move it to. Which I stated when I said I was withholding my vote for now Saturday morning.

I think Mala thought you were scum reading me because of your post that looked like you were considering a me/Mala team. I do think that Mala's initial response to your questioning was a little too sensitive but I don't really think it was an odd response considering history.

You were absent and then you started after me re: Sakura/Nacho and then when I stopped posting you picked to what seemed to be a fight with Beeboy.

I don't think either of these pushes were intended as picking a fight with or getting after people.

[The Pied Piper]

Nacho!

I will warn you right now that my #1 goal is to get caught up and then pass out, so if you have specific questions in mind, that's cool but if it's a "let's sit down together and talk about our view of the gamestate as a whole", now is probably not the time.

[The Pied Piper]

and as soon as I got done saying that, I read my catchup post.

whoops.

[The Pied Piper]

Ah.
Thank you, that makes sense and answers my question.

I have no idea which of you posted this.
Thanks for giving me nightmares.

Ah.
Thank you, that makes sense and answers my question.

I have no idea which of you posted this.
Thanks for giving me nightmares.

If it makes you feel better, I read 609 and I thought that it was my post around here and was incredibly confused for longer than I'd like to admit.

[The Pied Piper]

But now you seem to be convinced enough that you're at the stage where the first thought about someone defending me is that they might be a scumpartner. The first assumption isn't even that podoboq is just wrong on, but that someone defending me makes for a potential scum team association! That is so weird to me.

I found the scum team observation a bit strange, but I don't think that the post implies that Skybird is so confident that you are scum that she is looking for your partner, and I very strongly doubt that you are going to be scum's mislynch target for today so scum having you as their planned scumread for the day seems off. Skybird just feels like she's drifting in the ethers right now; it doesn't feel great but generally she floats a bit until she finds something to latch onto and when she latches onto something she doesn't seem that difficult to read, although this is coming from someone with approximately zero memorable experience with her scumgame.

I'm sorry waht? Are you having trouble reading my first post and the second post?

I don't know what you're confused about and because I'm town reading you and don't have a particular need to get this addressed let's drop it and talk Axel.

What
The
Heck?

You've never asked someone a question that they didn't understand and then reworded it and they didn't understand it and then tried again and they didn't understand it and then threw your hands up and said "fuck it"?

[The Pied Piper]

ehhhhhhhhhhh I still don't really get it
what was your mentality behind your lack of vote on us in your entrance
that being said your recent posts are okay

Egh sorry.
I was reading the thread. Liked beeboy's push. seemed genuine. ISO's Seniors. seemed shitty.
Read a bit more. beeboy changed his vote to Sakura. Huh? Sakura seemed okay. Waiting to see what beeboy followed up with.
Posted. beeboy cross-posted. Changed his mind on the Sakura push. Asked me to sheep him on Seniors.
OK.

I thought that explained it pretty solidly. You didn't?

did I hallucinate the part where I quoted the points that I thought were bad and told him they were bad and why
because if i did then i'll be happy to do that now.

You probably didn't; I'll follow up on this when I don't want to sleep so badly.

[The Pied Piper]

IDK why it felt out of place, but it did. Doesn't matter about the history. I agree with you about Beeboy. I already said prior to GM townreading him that a lot of it was noise. (I brought it up before tammy though<3.)

Eh, I think there's more people deserving of votes or even scummier that I would rather lynch over a forced policy lynch. I'm okay with Mirhawk as a lynch and actually more recently I'd be okay with a FS lynch too. There's other players not really playing that are more of a /better/ policy lynch than Beeboy.

I'm not really sure that Dav being an easy target? IDK I'm pretty sure that if he wanted to pick an easier target he could have

I can see where you're reading into the Beeboy v FS. I'd pretty much be okay with one of the lynches today being {FS or Mirhaw}.

That's what bothered me most about the Mirhawk post around the miller claim. It felt like he saw right through it and that he was fencesitting himself to go either way and kinda show that he knew Ami was lying.

If Mirhawk flips scum; I'd prob say that FS could potentially be a huge partner.

What exactly do you want to know regarding my Mirhawk push?

~M

(ugh i can't really speak today. idk why im rattled, but if that didnt make sense let me know)

Hey Mala

Fair enough about Sakura. About beeboy, you probably did bring it up first; I was going from memory.

I'm not interested in seriously lynching beeboy, it was more an expression of frustration with the way he was playing than anything. I'm townreading him and I'm glad that he's toned it down recently. I'm also not interested in policy lynching anybody when I have serious scumreads but hypothetically who would you be interested in policy lynching?

Davesaz being an easy target is something I sort of picked up from games of his that I've read that he tends to get wagonned early on for playstyle stuff or approaching the game differently than other people and so he feels himself to be an easy target, but he feels himself this way as both alignments. He wasn't the player I was focusing on in the games of his that I read, though, so I don't really have a feel for him. Are you both townreading Davesaz or just goodmorning?

Nacho asked me if I thought Mirhawk should know this stuff so I looked it up and they haven't played together before. I can retract that point I guess, though I still think Mirhawk is scum.

I didn't have a question about your Mirhawk push; when I said I was interested in it, I was trying to say that I was interested in supporting it and helping you lynch him, I just didn't phrase it well.

Which three players does Sakura remind you of?

Hope things get better for you.

[The Pied Piper]

@Cerberus: hi Cerberus and belatedly welcome to the game!

Do you think beeboy is scum or just bad town?

96% is very specific number. How did you arrive at it?

What's your read on Cakez?

[The Pied Piper]

You literally ISO'ed me and picked at a bunch of random shit nobody had mentioned yet.

Why is coming up with your own original points against somebody instead of regurgitating other people's arguments a scumtell?

(I won't comment on the rest right now because I don't want to get between you two but this jumped out at me.)

[The Pied Piper]

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

Do you have ideas yet about who are tiptoeing around this lynch or is that still a work in progress?

[The Pied Piper]

To sum up where I'm at with this - I really have had a peripheral vision on Seniors themself while events have revolved around them. I've read what they've posted since their awkward entrance and I'm wondering whether the interest in their lynch denotes scum tiptoeing around getting a cheap lynch and if someone else will do the work for them.

Do you have ideas yet about who are tiptoeing around this lynch or is that still a work in progress?

I would have to go back and ISO/investigate Seniors and I've just finished with the davesaz read and mental-flavour-rolling.
My next thing to do was look back at Skybird but I tend to spend so much time thinking that I was almost going to be lazy about the whole thing and cook dinner instead.

I tend to think about games I'm playing while making dinner/taking shower/getting groceries/etc. Sometimes stepping away for a bit helps me clear my head and see something I wasn't seeing earlier. Have a good supper.

My thoughts there primarily are the fact that by the time I voted I think there were only 2 votes on the wagon. But I'm almost positive more people had voted or expressed interest and and then moved away before that.

This is correct; if every player who had expressed suspicion of or willingness to vote Seniors were actually voting them, they would have already been lynched with 12 votes quite some time ago.

It's almost like when you get those early wagons that are guaranteed to go nowhere? Even though my vote on Seniors is stale, I don't have a read on them right now.

What are you thinking about that early activity and the way the wagon shaped itself? If anything.

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts and I'm not sure which is correct, but some of them are (off the top of my head so some numbers may be somewhat off)

I don't think there were ever more than 4-5 votes on Seniors at a time, but a lot more people were willing to vote them. If Seniors are scum, I'd look for more scum in the people who were willing to vote without voting.

I simultaneously don't think that beeboy is bussing Seniors (because I've been townreading beeboy) and think that early game wagons are unlikely to go through especially in a game of this size, especially when the wagon starts in post 6. It's rare to get a wagon of lynch momentum going in RVS, though beeboy tried very hard. Generally the first few wagons of the day are safe because people will decide okay we've had our fun RVS wagon now let's move elsewhere and then wagon a few more people before finally lynching somebody else entirely. As such, if beeboy

were

bussing, that'd be a pretty clever move because no matter how hard he pushes it, it's almost certainly not going to go through.

In my first scumgame, I spent 54 pages death tunnelling my buddy who was obvscum and town wouldn't lynch him because they thought it was a TvT. Cakez was saying something about him and beeboy doing scum theatre all game long in Borderlands and I might want to read that later if I have time but my ability to pay attention to anything at length is impaired right now.

I don't think beeboy is scum, though.

Goodmorning's comments about Friendless Seniors and A Midsummer Night's Dream are also sticking with me. I was just spectating that game and I didn't scumread them; they were slippery and my eyes would slide off of them and kept looking elsewhere, but I think she's picking up on something I'm not.

Some things Cakez has said recently have made me want to take a hard look at his ISO; I might have townread him too easily.

I'm only scumreading a couple of the people who were willing to vote Seniors: tictac and Swordsworth. A bunch of my null reads are in there too, though.


I think the lynch of the day is going to be between Seniors, Swordsworth, and Mirhawk. Almost everybody is willing to vote Swordsworth but 0 people are actually voting him, but we'll see what happens with the replacement.

What do you think of Mirhawk?


pedit:

Reading Seniors' ISO has been like gargling liquid PCP and just falling short of swallowing the whole mouthful.
I'm struggling to figure out if that comes from town or if it's a caricature of what town behaviour is supposed to be.

lol

[The Pied Piper]

I've seen RVS wagons succeed in a few games, including some I played in like this sad little micro where I spent 3 days thinking up an RVS joke for my friend and he was lynched before he could laugh at it , but those were 9 player games. It's a lot easier to get 5 people to vote for something than 11.

[The Pied Piper]

Mm, I can relate to that about wanting to see what people do; I feel like a lot of the time I can read people well enough just by sitting back and watching; diving into the fray sometimes you get lost in the details but I've sometimes had success with just stepping back and squinting at the game like one of those Magic Eye picture things.

Or maybe sometimes I just get lucky, idk.

pedit: how large was the game? I've seen it happen in a few newbie games, including my second newbie game in which I learned a Very Important Lesson about counting (and spent the next month afraid to vote anybody after midnight), and a few micros.

[The Pied Piper]

Podoboq: i'm sorry it's taking me so long to reply to this post of yours; I've been meaning to but it was posted right around the start of my v/la.

No, not really. In the One Night Werewolf game, a townie gave up on contributing early because he didn't like the mechanics of the game, being that players can change alignments, or not know their alignments. That's different from giving up because there's a wagon on you.

Okay. I think your stance on this makes sense if it's not something you've seen before. The first time I saw somebody just give up,

Titus

in WDPT, I lynched her too. I think this is the kind of thing where until you've experienced it first hand it just looks dumb and fake. Sometimes a game reaches through the screen and grabs you in real life in an unexpected way and the thought "but it's just a game" makes it worse.

In the blitz game that some of us keep talking about, both town and scum responded to the game's toxicity in a variety of ways: giving up, replacing out, active lurking, melting down, etc.

I think it might help for you to read some more games. The blitz that I linked was a terrible experience, but I think it was terrible in an educational way. Spoil yourself and read it knowing the alignments of the players and try to see the emotions of the players and how everyone responded to frustration differently. The game contains about 3 examples of scum giving up and about 7 examples of town giving up. And yet town won. Everything was terrible and it continued to be terrible and then like magic town came together and found each other and won. There's a lot of overlap between that playerlist and this one so it'll also help you get to know us better.

(There are some other lessons in that game as well; the dynamic between

KT

-

Phantom

-

Expedience

was particularly interesting. Look at how upset KT and Expedience were that Ranger and I had enough experience with Phantom to know that he was town. That's what scum being deprived of an obvious mislynch looks like.)

He suggests lynching pistacion, then suggests not lynching Amihan in retaliation if pistachion flips Miller. That could be protecting a scum partner (Amihan) or more likely, getting town cred for suggesting not to lynch someone he knows will flip town (Amihan), knowing that if we follow through with the pistachion lynch we would definitely lynch Amihan next. Again, these lines of play have changed since Amihan claimed it was a gambit, but that's where town was when he made that post.

If somebody flipped town,

would

you give towncred to the people who suggested not to lynch them?

It's less what they've said about FS and more what FS has said about them. I think FS's post on Cakez being scum for his readslist is bullshit, and I don't like the way they've acted about beeboy. Basically, I wouldn't expect town!FS to have the reads on those two players that they do. So I looked into Seniors because Cakez and beeboy clearly thought that was a tree worth barking up, and in my ISO, I had a problem with Seniors' perspective on Cakez and beeboy.

Honestly, I think beeboy's "You didn't buddy me" reasoning is hollow, but Seniors' response to it is lacking.

Would you expect townSeniors to townread Cakez and/or beeboy in response to being attacked, or do you expect townSeniors to have a more nuanced read on Cakez and beeboy than they do?

The only out I give FS to get me off their back is to engage with town. If FS is scum, engaging with town will give us more opportunities to read them. If FS is town, then I can encourage them to rejoin the game. So I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and extending an olive branch.

What do you think of Errant's latest posts? (ErrantParabola is the head that signs as -EP and writes longer more thoughtful posts. hiplop is the head that does one liners and forgets to sign his posts.)

[The Pied Piper]

ugh, Agreement.

which part?

[The Pied Piper]

oh okay, thanks for clarifying.

[The Pied Piper]

Hi Ranger!

[The Pied Piper]

(Nacho-head) needs to go on V/LA for a couple of days in order to work on something site-related.

It's good to see you, Ranger.

[The Pied Piper]

The Pied Piper (Plotinus/nachomamma8) (both heads)

I don't mind being counted in this list because I have read enough of your games that I'm comfortable vouching that this is indeed your playstyle but I don't remember playing with you before. *looks* I spectated Game Shop, duckcakes, zakk's game, star trek...oh you were in elemental mafia! That's right. That was a long time ago, wow.

I don't think i could say anything intelligent about what

is

alignment indicative for you but asking questions, prodding people here and there without making strong pushes before you're ready is just you being you, and you have made some pushes this game: against Mirhawk and dramonic.

Plenty of inferences can be made from it, granted. I just have a preference for straightforward "Joe is scum because of X,Y,Z" type posts.

You may prefer this when you're reading but you don't prefer this when you're writing.

But this is where I think that you're at with this game right now, correct me if I'm wrong:

Your main scumreads are dramonic and mirhawk, in that order. You're getting suspicious of Axel or are in the process of trying to sort him right now. You were scumreading one of amihan/pistachi0n before the claim was retracted but haven't interacted with them since.

Your biggest townreads are me and True Ogre, maybe beeboy too but you've had that read for a long time and I'm not sure whether it's still existing or if it's gone stale. You're townleaning tictac too.

You were defending seniors early on (90, 92) but you backed down pretty quickly in response to pressure and haven't interacted with them since. I'm worried that this is a result of beeboy taking the stance that everyone who supported his tunnel was town and everyone who resisted it was scum because beeboy was making a lot of noise and you may have worried that beeboy's guns may be turned on you. You've been explicitly townreading beeboy since 463.

Everyone else is a morass of null for you but gun to your head you are more suspicious about this half of the players (S -> W): mirhawk, dramonic, Axel, spiffeh, skybird, cakez, podoboq, snarky, amihan, pistachi0n,
and more trusting of this half of the players (S -> W): True Ogre, Us, beeboy, tictac, The Wrong Lynch, seniors, cerb, tammy, sakura, ranger

Do you think Mirhawk and Dramonic are scum together, or are your reads on them independent? Is Dramonic bussing Axel?

You said that you have trouble reading Spiffeh, is this in both directions? Do you tend to townread him as scum and scumread him as town, or do you tend to scumread him as both alignments?

Which reads of yours did I get wrong?

pedit @Ranger: That is true of Mirhawk though slightly less true; there haven't been 11 people willing to vote Mirhawk at once yet. There is still time though!

[The Pied Piper]

Ranger, how confident are you in your ability to read newbies?

Semi unrelatedly*, why is Snarky so high, they are a minimalist like you but they are capable of doing more than literally nothing: in Miller's hollow, which I have virtually no recollection of because of how sick I was that game, but I do remember that they had a lot more impact on the thread even though we were getting 20+ pages per day in a mini (and wound up having a 90 page day one). I feel like they also had more presence in Machina than they've had here. Is your townlean on Snarky tied to your scumread on Seniors (and if so how much stock do you put into the "newbie scum tend to vote their buddies in RVS" tell?) or is it unrelated?

*snarky is still new enough but they aren't incompetent and this isn't their first large, or their second non newbie game or a completely unfamiliar playlist to them. As such, the question about newbies is more regarding the newer newbies in this game.

I'm okay with the rest of it for today; I don't agree fully but I think I can see how you got there well enough and I'm happy with your lynchpool.

[The Pied Piper]

Yeah, we should look at Ranger's slot, but it's awfully bold to intend to vote someone who hasn't posted at all.

Is bold a town thing or a scum thing? And why?

[The Pied Piper]

podoboq is brand new to mafia without offsite experience and with 1 completed newbie game and 1 completed game of one night ultimate werewolf (in which he was scum). He doesn't know anybody yet.

Your predecessor was either newnew or was an alt playing the newbie card in their previous games that I looked at but I was leaning actually new on them.

Tictac doesn't have any completed scumgames and only has 3 completed games on this site (2 newbies, 1 mini) and were town in those games. This is their first large and an unfamiliar playlist for them.

pistachi0n isn't newnew but she doesn't play a lot either. She does have some completed scumgames. I wouldn't call her a newbie but this is her first large game and a lot of unfamiliar players for her.

Amihan doesn't have many completed games but clearly has offsite experience of some kind, but I'm leaning new-to-MS not alt. Most of the playerlist is new to her and this is her first large.

True Ogre is alt, not new.

Axelrod is not new. He has a 2005 joindate but doesn't seem to play very often; he may be used to an older site meta. He probably doesn't recognise most of the players. The last time he played a large was in 2012 and it was over in less than 90 pages.


I don't think anybody else meets any definition of new (new to mafia, never been scum before, new to ms, new to larges, new to this playerlist.)

Players in their first large may be having trouble keeping up with the number of pages or keeping track of this many players. Players new in any sense of the word may have trouble following arguments based on meta. + some other considerations.

[The Pied Piper]

@Rob: nacho's v/la too now for a couple days so our whole hydra is v/la

(Nacho-head) needs to go on V/LA for a couple of days in order to work on something site-related.

[The Pied Piper]

I know some people (Mala, hippyloppy, Spiffeh, tictac, maybe a few others) have reached out to me specifically and I've been trying to reach out in return but it's hard to find the words, but I appreciate it, thank you.

Hi, I'll be VLA until Monday. I did not anticipate this, so I'm really sorry that it came up and especially sorry to hiplop. If anyone has urgent questions for this head, then please direct me to them as I'll be checking rather infrequently.

-EP

I hope everything's okay for you.



I feel like I have a lot of live stitches dangling right now but I intend to pick all of them back up before they ladder.

[The Pied Piper]

There's not a binary answer to this.

Good, there shouldn't be.

I've definitely townread people who have me as a scumread. A person scumreading you should not automatically result in you scumreading them. Town's scumhunting shouldn't be localized onto the people who are scumreading them.

I think that while this is true in an ideal sense, there's something like the cocktail party effect where neurotypical people just notice their own name a lot more sharply than they notice other people's names; in a noisy environment even if they're focusing on something else and tuning stuff out, if somebody says their name, their ears perk up.

Ideally a person should branch out beyond themselves as much as they can but it's natural and understandable if the parts of the thread you remember the most are the parts that are about you.

I think that Seniors OMGUSing their entire wagon is something that can come from a town mindset because scum, in my experience, are typically more self-conscious and thus would be more aware of how ridiculous that looks.

That's a hell of a lot more than we've gotten out of him this game, and it happened within the first week. We've waited a week here and the best we got is this:

Did Cakez ever reply to this point?

Hmm. Cakez umm. I need to look at him more closely? I'm being pretty floaty this game. I pushed the one thing that was a red flag for me, and nothing else so far has really jumped out at me without requiring in depth analysis I haven't done for anything in this game yet.

Finally got around to ISOing him earlier today like I'd been meaning to; made a map to try to get into his head. Didn't like what I saw. How's the floaty going? Is it getting better? I've been pretty out of it lately myself. I'm paying attention but i'm gonna start nattering about coloured threads if i try to explain what i'm thinking.

Ah, that's fine actually. I thought this was more of that business where I knew it was a gambit because I'm scum.

The way podoboq explained it is the way i was thinking of it too.

Making stuff up to defend yourself is towny now??

Why do you think she made stuff up rather than misremembered?

I like how he's engaged with other players. He mentions things he finds scummy, asks about them, and requires that people justify their actions. That's how I play the game.

I like how he was hard on beeboy for the Sakura waffling, specifically.

Are you townreading everybody but dramonic and snarky then? Everyone else is more or less scumhunting.

Yeah, we should look at Ranger's slot, but it's awfully bold to intend to vote someone who hasn't posted at all.

Pistachi0n, I would still like it answered whether in your experience bold is a towntell or a scumtell.


i'm all out of words for today. maybe get a refill on words tomorrow. still have a couple days, want to try to do as much as we can.

[The Pied Piper]

Snarky, can you make a readslist?

[The Pied Piper]

did I hallucinate the part where I quoted the points that I thought were bad and told him they were bad and why
because if i did then i'll be happy to do that now.

Hey Errant,

While I don't think that you didn't do this, I think that the way you went about it wasn't going to result in a productive response. Yes, beeboy's push on you was sort of needless aggression and nothing else, fighting fire with fire that is not as intense but isn't fire isn't exactly a recipe for a reasonable talk about your alignment.

This is EP

This is EP's scum game dodging parts where he isn't comfortable and coming in with walls

haven't read everything but holy shit this might be the most harebrained accusation that i have ever seen. and i've seen some shitty cases.

"HEY EP WASN'T HERE AT THE START OF THE GAME MUST BE SCUM!!!"
"DISREGARD THE FACT THAT EP WASN'T POSTING IN ANY OTHER GAMES"
"OR MIGHT HAVE HAD OTHER SHIT TO DO"
"YEAH THIS IS EP CLEARLY DODGING START OF THE GAME"

seriously beeboy? Do you want to rethink your life or your play?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=175

EP in the game I played with him when he was scum he avoiding pushing all the primary wagons early on.

this is you looking surface at my scumplay and not actually understanding how people play as scum. I look ath things that i find objectively scummy and push them. If you cared to read the deadthread in invaders you would actually know that. Do your meta research, don't go "oh hey EP did this one thing as scum in one game I played with them so they must be scum ya ya?"

-EP

DAMMIT
FUCK

[The Pied Piper]

If the goal here is to get beeboy to stop tunneling you, it seems smarter to engage him on the few points than he's brought up as opposed to calling his post garbage and then asking him to do something about it.

honestly nacho, it is SUPER difficult to have a reasonable discussion with a crazy person screaming in your face frothing at the mouth. He started it based on lies and continues it based on lies, I pointed those out and am uninterested and pushing this any further

Ogre's stances this game make no sense. However, I actually think hes town from it. I don't think hes reading the game very closely, and seems to be hard skimming in a sorta townie way.

I don't get why Cakez is being allowed to skid along like this

Which of Ogre's stances don't make sense to you?

[The Pied Piper]

You really do need to listen to the people who have played with me before. Not that one vote really matters that much, but wasted effort that doesn't go into finding scum becomes harmful after a point.

This post seems a lot more town than not; I'm not sure dave would be treating a player incessantly tunneling on him like this if he was scum.

People in the middle: Pistachi0n, Pied Piper, Tic Tac, TrueOgre, Sakura Hana, Skybird. The Miller claim is kind of null to me. If pistachi0n had done it before most of the people in the game had already posted it would have been a stronger play, but the delayed entrance made it a much less risky proposition as a scum gambit. and then he was away for another day after, and by the time he came back Ami was no longer even voting for him. He hasn't done enough of anything else to give me a strong feeling about him. TicTac I thought had a strong entrance, but then the rest of his posting has been kind of meh. Sakura it's possible there's a language or cultural thing going on there but the whole exchange with him was just weird. The way he jumped on whether or not my random vote was serious did not make any sense at all. Skybird hasn't done much of anything. I kind of liked Ami's point about him, so he might be more a leaning scum than a total null.

Why is it that we ended up in the middle without a nod in our direction? I figured you would be at least somewhat interested in working with me (Nacho) after Classic, and I'm always surprised when people who haven't played with Plot before don't townread them immediately.

No.
I meant that if we assume she was scum then we have to assume she is playing badly.
If we assume she is town then we are making assumptions about the game setup that we cant back up and have no way to confirm.

I don't like either of those choices.

The way that you're pushing at this probably means that there's something about your mindset that I don't understand, but.

Amihan claims miller in response to Pistachion claiming miller. If she is town, this doesn't automatically mean that Pistachion is scum. The only way that this leads to an incredibly crappy response is if town blindly follows Amihan's claim to a lynch (which is what you were doing), that's "making assumptions about the game setup that we can't back up". Voting Pistach even though you were decently confident that Amihan makes absolutely no sense, and "maybe I was wrong" doesn't clear things up at all for me. Maybe you were wrong, yes, but you felt it was more likely that you were right so don't you usually make the plays that are the most likely to be right?

[The Pied Piper]

is this nacho or plot? I'm going to go back and look. I've forgotten what that was about, in all honesty.

Nacho

Unfortunately, I'm still like 40 pages behind and am now fighting to catch up and be a real player again.

[The Pied Piper]

Ranger, talk to me when you have time. You don't have to answer all of this; leave out the parts you don't think are important and I'll pursue them or I won't, but I'm trying to see where you're coming from.

Spoiler: questions for ranger about her catchup posts

{Tammy, SirCakez}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird}
{dramonic, Axelrod}
{beeboy, Friendless Seniors}
{Spiffeh}

One.

Why were dramonic and axel sharing a tier on page 1? Was Seniors so low because they suggested a policy lynch or for some other reason? Was Spiffeh on the bottom for claiming town or some other reason?

{Tammy, SirCakez}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird}
{dramonic, Axelrod}
{

Sakura Hana

}
{beeboy, Friendless Seniors.

The Wrong Lynch

}
{Spiffeh}

Two.

(Bolded the changes)
What was wrong with Mala's posting on page 2?
Is Sakura's postition primarily based on 38 or a different one?

{Tammy, SirCakez}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird,

SnarkySnowman

}
{dramonic, Axelrod,

davesaz

}
{Sakura Hana,

Mirhawk, beeboy

}
{Friendless Seniors. The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh}

Three.

Is beeboy rising because he was making so much noise?

{Tammy, SirCakez,

beeboy

}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird, SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod,

Sakura Hana

}
{Mirhawk,

davesaz

}
{Friendless Seniors, The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh}

Four.

Why does beeboy jump to the top on page 4 specifically?, sakura goes up a notch for questioning a townread on her or something else?, davesaz is falling a little due to other people being rearranged or some other reason?

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy}
{The Pied Piper}
{Cerberus v666}
{Skybird, SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana}

{davesaz}
{Mirhawk}

{Friendless Seniors, The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh}

{True Ogre}

Five.

Is davesaz a little bit towner than mirhawk on this page because of the false dichotomy thing or something else?
Is True Ogre at the bottom because of how late their entrance was? Because of withholding their vote? It feels like True Ogre's stances in 123 were fairly similar to your own stances. Did the post feel like testing the waters to you or something else?

VOTE: True Ogre.
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy}
{The Pied Piper,

Skybird

}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz}
{Mirhawk}
{Friendless Seniors, The Wrong Lynch}
{Spiffeh,

tictac

}
{True Ogre}

[snip]...six.

True Ogre vote because of their vote at the top of page 6 or?

Almost

asked hey why isn't swordsworth on your readslist. Then I felt dumb!
Skybird is towner because of her questioning of Ogre or?
is tictac scummy for the things they're missing in 138 or the things they're noticing?

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz}
{Mirhawk}
{The Wrong Lynch,

tictac

}
{Spiffeh,

Friendless Seniors

}
{True Ogre}

8.
If Spiffeh is supposed to be obvtown, so far, it's not showing.

tictac a little townier for 162? seniors a little scummier for errant's wall? Do you think there's probably exactly one scum in each of these lists:

town: tictac, beeboy, mirhawk
scum: cakez, dave, ogre

Tonality-wise, though, page nine does give a glimpse of what might be a town-Spiffeh.

That gets me to this:
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz}
{Mirhawk}
{

Spiffeh

}
{The Wrong Lynch, tictac}
{Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

Because of his interactions with us or something else?

Nothing else on page 9 affected your reads on any other slots?

337 is enough.
VOTE: Friendless Seniors.

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy,

Amihan

}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman,

pistachi0n

}
{dramonic, Axelrod, Sakura Hana,

davesaz

}
{Mirhawk}
{Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, tictac}
{Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

You're voting Seniors but you still have Ogre beneath them in your readslist. Is this intentional? Is pistachi0n's place here solely due to her miller claim? Is Amihan's place solely due to the miller gambit? I feel like Spiffeh got towner on page 11. You didn't? Why is Mirhawk's position unchanged? There's very little motion in your readslist around this time. What would you attribute that to? 337 is a naked vote on pistachi0n in response to amihan's counterclaim. Why was this vote worse than the other votes that were piling on at this time? (This is partially answered in your 1278 but why are naked votes from hiplop surprising to you? If you can tell that the naked voter was hiplop, and I agree that was almost certainly him, that means that naked voting isn't surprising from hiplop except in this case it is?)

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n,

Sakura Hana

}
{dramonic, Axelrod, davesaz}
{Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, tictac,

Mirhawk

}
{Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

Should waited until the

end

of page 14 before making a list.

Okay, so Mirhawk got a little worse in 349, but they didn't get worse before that? I feel like they were already worse before 337.

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
{dramonic, Axelrod, davesaz}
{Spiffeh,

The Wrong Lynch

}
{tictac, Mirhawk}
{Friendless Seniors}
{True Ogre}

398 also feels like a scum-Errant for what it's worth.

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
{dramonic, Axelrod, davesaz}
{Spiffeh, The Wrong Lynch}
{tictac,

True Ogre

}
{Friendless Seniors,

Mirhawk

}

Same page, reordering accuracy. This is a more accurate reads list.

Can you talk some about your Cakez read? I realise it hasn't changed since page 1 but that's part of the problem I'm having with it. What did you like about Ogre and Mala's posting on page 16 in particular?

475, minus beeboy (as Spiffeh said, beeboy's town), plus Mirhawk (but

not

pistachi0n), is basically where I'm at now if you couldn't tell.

Unfortunately, I have to leave soon (just enough time to read the current posts), so I'll leave with half the game finished, and a reads list currently looking like this:
Untouchable town: {Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
Decently-strong town: {The Pied Piper, Skybird}
Rogue tier: {Cerberus v666}
Town: {SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
Mostly town: {dramonic, Axelrod, davesaz}
Town with minor reserves: {The Wrong Lynch,

podoboq

, Spiffeh}
Probably scum: {tictac, True Ogre}
Most definitely scum: {Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

Cerberus is honestly a rogue tier. He could be placed in any tier above tictac that's not the untouchable-town tier right now, and it wouldn't be out of place honestly.
Other than that, the tiers are approximately: {Untouchable, decently-strong town, town, mostly-town, town-with-minor-reserves, probably scum, most definitely scum}.

(i edited the labels into the tiers to make it easier for myself to follow.)

Snarky isn't falling a little? I know that Cerberus is a rogue tier but did his predecessor's "18 pages holy moly" affect your read in any direction?

Is your town read on podoboq partially based on how cute he is?

Is your dramonic read meta based or?

What do you think of the rest of Cakez' seven scumreads? You pointed at his 475 and said what you thought of them but he was also considering pistachi0n, mirhawk, and you.

{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird}
{Cerberus v666}
{SnarkySnowman, pistachi0n, Sakura Hana}
{dramonic, davesaz,

podoboq

}
{The Wrong Lynch, Spiffeh,

Axelrod

}

{True Ogre}
{tictac}

{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

Is podoboq improving because of posts like 477 where he's looking past things he doesn't like to townread people in spite of antitown behaviour? Because of the jester questions on page 21?

What did you think of goodmorning's entrance? I notice it didn't leave a mark on your readslist.

What did you think of snarky chiming in to the jester conversation and continuing to ignore everything going on in the thread?

Given that Seniors is/was one of your strongest scumreads, what do you think of this vote count which occurs right after Amihan has retracted her miller counterclaim but before anyone has really had time to unvote. How does this affect your read on Amihan? I've been townreading her until now but I've got this sudden worry that we're underestimating her. At the time of her counterclaim, Seniors had 5 votes on them, Cakes had 3, and then there were a bunch of vanity wagons. At the end of it, pistachi0n was the leading wagon, Mirhawk was starting to look bad with 4 votes on them, and the only people left voting Seniors were Snarky, Ogre, and beeboy.

The time to do something crazy is when multiple members of the scumteam are in trouble because things can hardly get worse and they might get better. This would make Mirhawk and pistachi0n both likely town, and Seniors, Cakez, and Amihan all scum. Axel too, maybe, for 538.

Is Ogre looking better for mixing up the heads in my hydra on page 22 or something else?

What did you think of pistachi0n's 550?

This is a page 24 readslist. I feel like so much has happened in these 4 pages that isn't reflected in your readslist.

875 means I can

finally

stop orphaning my Cerb read.
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird,

pistachi0n, podoboq, Cerberus v666

}
{SnarkySnowman, Sakura Hana}
{davesaz,

Spiffeh

}
{The Wrong Lynch, Axelrod,

dramonic

}
{True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

Most of these are reads getting stronger, but True Ogre looks more town (still more likely to be scum than not, just less likely scum than before) and read atrophy is why Axelrod and dramonic have dropped a few pegs.

Was 670 a large part of why podoboq moved up?

I agree that Tammy's town but it feels like you've written her off as town.

Dramonic did post during this time actually and so did Axel. Why don't you have read atrophy on Snarky?

Why is 875 enough to make Cerberus town? Have you played with scumCerberus before? Is he that bad at it?

/page36

Ugh I feel like I have too many townreads and someone is dogging me

This is one of the reasons dramonic and Axelrod have dropped in my reads.

Another being I hated Axel's reads when he did give them.

Speaking of which,
{Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan,

Cerberus v666

}
{The Pied Piper, Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq,

Sakura Hana

}
{

SnarkySnowman

}
{davesaz, Spiffeh}
{The Wrong Lynch, dramonic}
{

Axelrod

}
{True Ogre}
{tictac}
{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}
Now the orphaned read is SnarkySnowman. My stance on Cerb now applies to him; he could be anywhere above Axelrod that's below untouchable.

This is your final readslist for when you were caught up. I know you've made a few since then but I haven't had time to examine the pages they're based on in depth yet.

I'm sort of running out of steam to be reskimming the parts of the game that i'd already read when I desperately need to get caught up myself, and I don't even really disagree with this list as such because it's pretty similar to what my own lynch pool was looking like around that time and I do think there's scum in [mirhawk, seniors] though I don't think they make sense as scum together right now.

But at the same time, and maybe it's an artifact of reading so much in such a short time but I feel like there are some eddies in the thread that didn't leave ripples in your readslist.

[The Pied Piper]

Omg Ranger's reads are pretty fantastic.

Were Ranger's reads fantastic primarily because they agreed with yours? What read of hers did you find most surprising?

Lol sure. I'm not the one who you're going to have to justify this to later anyhow. I already think you're scum.

Are you scumreading Pistachi0n for more than miller claim?

There were three scum replace outs in a Mini Theme I just finished and no town replace outs.

My mini normal also had three scum replace-outs and no town replace-outs, too. Incidentally, Mirhawk replaced in.

I have deliberately been avoiding comparing this game to that game because it's a whopping sample size of one, but for what it's worth, there are some strong elements of the same game Mirhawk had there in here.

My mini had 1 town pregame replace out. My micros had 1 and 2 town replaceouts. My blitz had two town replace outs. One of my newbies had two town pregame replacements and the other had 1 town and 1 scum replacement. In the game where I backup modded there was 3 town replacements and the large where I replaced in as moderator there was 1 town and 3 scum replacements.

Orphaned read: I don't really have any definitive place for SnarkySnowman, and am hoping to see more of him. I liked his early posting, which got him that high in the first place, and his posting since then hasn't made me think "could be scum", I just don't have anything right now that gives me an idea of where he'd be on the town scale, he's just somewhere in there.

What about Snarky's early posting did you like? What kind of posting would you have expected from scumSnarky early on? It looks like the game you played with scumSnarky was multiball.

Or don't vig me tonight, that would be nice. I take a while to get into large games, and I'm not quite feeling this one yet.

I want to sympathise with this because I remember my first large and how long it took me to get my head into the game (an entire month) but this isn't your first large. As far as I can tell from your ISO, your readslist is:

SnarkySnowman's Readslist

{Ranger}
{Amihan, Axelrod, beeboy, Cerberus v666, davesaz, dramonic, Mirhawk, pistachi0n, podoboq, Sakura Hana, SirCakez, Skybird, Spiffeh, Tammy, The Pied Piper, THE WRONG LYNCH, tictac, True Ogre}
{Seniors}

That's certainly a start. I know your wiki says that you hate day 1. I used to hate day 1 too. You've played with some of us before, though:

• In Fire and Ice,
  you
  played with
  beeboy
  and
  Ranger
  .
  
• In Midsummer Night's Dream,
  you
  played with
  Goodmorning
  ,
  Spiffeh
  ,
  Friendless Seniors
  , and
  beeboy
  .
  
• In Machina, your first large,
  you
  saw
  Ranger
  ,
  Nacho
  ,
  Tammy
  , and
  Spiffeh
  .
  
• In Miller's hollow
  you
  saw
  Plotinus
  . Miller's Hollow wasn't a large but it might as well have been with 40 pages in 2 real life days and a 90 page day 1.
  
• In your first newbie game,
  you
  met
  Cakez
  and
  Goodmorning
  was your IC.

You don't have to compare our play with previous games if that's not your thing. You can keep it to this game if you prefer, but I think it's not an accident that the two reads you do have are on players that you've met before. I'd like you to try to have reads on at least a few more slots and familiar faces can be easier than strangers sometimes, so what do you think of

beeboy

,

spiffeh

,

the wrong lynch

,

cakez

, and

the pied piper

?

A good goal is to be transparent about your thoughts. If you have a bunch of thoughts on things, bring them up even if they sound a little ridiculous. If you don't have thoughts on things, say so.

How can I understand what your motivations are if you don't explain what stances you have or why you have them? I personally think it's more likely that you're having trouble faking reads (since it's harder to fake reads than form them naturally) than you simply not having any.

[The Pied Piper]

Plenty of inferences can be made from it, granted. I just have a preference for straightforward "Joe is scum because of X,Y,Z" type posts.

You may prefer this when you're reading but you don't prefer this when you're writing.

I do try to make reasons clear for my scumreads, though it would not surprise me a bit if they are less clear for others. One of my RL struggles is difficulty in getting my assumptions right about what other people understand. Also available time varies a lot plus I do know how to strategically use a weak push for reactions...

It's okay, but you've only used "because" 5 times in your ISO to explain your thoughts (the other 16 times it appears are from quotations or questions.) You did explain your reads more than 5 times but sometimes you leave off the because or sometimes when you're just asking questions it's hard to tell if you're also scumreading the person you're questioning or if you think they're town and are trying to compare notes or something in between. I'm not always the best at reading between the lines but I probably don't really need the level of resolution that I prefer.

No read on tictac at all. And "biggest" is relative, I typically don't have someone in a strong townread this early and this game is no exception.

That makes sense.

You were defending seniors early on (90, 92) but you backed down pretty quickly in response to pressure and haven't interacted with them since. I'm worried that this is a result of beeboy taking the stance that everyone who supported his tunnel was town and everyone who resisted it was scum because beeboy was making a lot of noise and you may have worried that beeboy's guns may be turned on you. You've been explicitly townreading beeboy since 463.

Defending Seniors is incorrect. I didn't have a read at that point. It is more accurate to say that in 90 I was questioning the method used by beeboy. There was no point in followup because it was obvious that beeboy was going to tunnel the point. 92 is a weak scumread of Snarky. No fear involved, I feel confident that this playerlist is likely to read me correctly (after getting it wrong multiple times in the past). As noted below, beeboy is more "not scum" than "clearly town".

It did occur to me that Seniors could've been null for you at that time. It fits with you backing down too: there's a limit to how far a person is willing to go to defend a null read from attacks.

Trusting a playerlist who has misread you multiple times in the past to get it right this time feels like a townier stance than not.

Everyone else is a morass of null for you but gun to your head you are more suspicious about this half of the players (S -> W): mirhawk, dramonic, Axel, spiffeh, skybird, cakez, podoboq, snarky, amihan, pistachi0n,
and more trusting of this half of the players (S -> W): True Ogre, Us, beeboy, tictac, The Wrong Lynch, seniors, cerb, tammy, sakura, ranger

Spiffeh on the nulltown side, cakez is stale and needs review, amihan is much more town than that, tictac is much lower, seniors somewhat lower. Ranger could do this as scum so I'd start her in the middle and will need to see post-catchup activity to determine whether this is a strong town entrance or a masterful scum one. I'm warming up to the Ranger style reads lists, with fewer tiers, vs the S->W method. In fact enough players have town S->W and scum W->S, or vice versa, that I didn't interpret the town list correctly on first read. Tammy and Sakura would be higher, I haven't put much effort into sorting your slot and you'd be lower due to that, and it's most accurate to say that beeboy doesn't look scum but I wouldn't sheep.

The reason I thought you might be scumreading Spiffeh was -?+?892 -?1045, -1047, -?=1092.
Your only mention of Amihan was in 463; I figured that you not asking her anything after the miller thing was due to you townreading her but I wasn't sure to what extent or how much to read into the silence. Looking at my map, I think that accounts for all the differences in placement. Thank you for your responses to this.

For me, trouble reading means a player stays null for a long time and it's never really strong either way.

I think that's a better kind of trouble to have than the kind where you can't help townreading someone you know you shouldn't or wind up with a scumread that you know is based on non alignment indicative things but it's hard to push through that and see what's

is

indicative, both of which are problems I have sometimes.

[The Pied Piper]

She's slotted every person into what appears to be a fairly solid read with little to no justification for almost any of them.

This is bog standard Ranger, but in my experience, she is capable of providing reasoning if reasoning is desired.

Also where the heck is TWL?

I haven't seen anything of substance from them since 751.

They said in the signups thread (and reiterated it the multiple times that someone brought it up), that they would have limited access. Mala works long hours and is also going to school. It is not scummy for her to not be able to post frequently. It's important to read her on the quality of her posting, not the quantity.

This is not a fair attack to make.

I need to interact with people other than [Mirhawk]/FS, right now the game is revolving around too few people for me to be comfortable with the game state, but I feel as though my initial read through was too hasty and I don't have a firm grasp on the nuances of things.

Do you still feel this is the case?

Ranger's entrance and catch-up feels town to me.

It kinda does to me??

I don't really like the fact she put Tammy up at a top tier when she was absent for like pages at a time and before that her posts didn't really sway me either way.

Idk.

It's just feels made up

~M

I think Tammy being absent for pages at a time is a result of her IRL schedule, just like yours is. I think the page 1 townread of Tammy was premature and I went and looked at Mafiception where Ranger also townread Tammy pretty early but I didn't get as much out of this exercise as I thought I would.

Why did this games activity quarter?

I don't know but I really appreciate it because the thought that I could be 72 pages behind instead of 18 is nightmare fuel. Thank you everybody for your efforts to only post when you have something to say.

And, yes. This is the peak of my town game. Maybe I've been more town than in this game in some prior game, but subjectively, I can tell you I've never felt more town than this game before. The question isn't whether I'm town or scum, it's whether I'm accurate-town or inaccurate-town

This is how I felt in that horrid blitz. And how I still feel about my play there. I don't think I'll ever be as town as I was in that game, and nobody could see it. Perhaps that's what made me so town.

Ugggh i don't have time for another side project when I am eighteen pages behind

Am I a sucker or is this a townpost?

@Ranger: whose lynch and flip provides the most information for town? Is there another metric that we should use to determine who we lynch today?

Well, those two give the most information in my opinion.

For instance, a lynch on Mirhawk will elevate Amihan and pistachi0n to truly-confirmed-town, among others. It also would reveal many of the strong Mirhawk pushers as being town. (I'd have to skim to name them all and why they're not bussing.)

A lynch on Friendless Seniors would serve a similarly-informative purpose.

They give the most information, they have the highest chance of flipping scum, they are the two leading wagons. For day one, you literally could not ask for better lynches.

In my experience, all of the times I thought I would get information out of lynching somebody, I didn't.

"they have the highest chance of flipping scum" is the only point in here that I find compelling. Have you talked about why they're scum together at any point?

Yes I suppose we have a couple of times. Your read on me is wrong which actually matches you as town. Your entrance of sorting and ignoring outside happenings matches you as town. I'm jsut not a fan of your "night on untouchable town" list, mainly.

because of Cakez or somebody else too?

I was waiting for a votecount. I have one. If the votes haven't changed since then, I will move to you. If they have, then I'll see who they have moved onto and who was moving and evaluate from there.

Ranger, this is reminding me of something you said in Blitz 19. Can you tell me what that thing was and why it is reminding me of that thing?

I think Ranger is town here tbh. Her play is reeking of her town game, I read Mafiaception and her play is nothing like it was there.

Can you explain this meta read with some more words?

So I think Ranger is obvtown here, but even if she isn't, what does it honestly matter for today's lynch? We were probably going to lynch Mirhawk or FS anyway.

I suggest we proceed as normal. If today's lynch flips scum, what does that say about Ranger? If they flip town, we can reassess.

In case this is some super complicated bussing, I'd suggest FS as our lynch tonight since Ranger is voting Mirhawk. Plus, this way we can get beeboy on the wagon.

VOTE: FriendlessSeniors

If there's a flaw on this logic, someone please point it out to me.

If you think Ranger's town, then you think she's not bussing. If you think she's bussing, then you think that she's scum voting her partner, so you vote the person that she's not voting because?

I'm enacting skim the game agogo

I wish I knew how to skim

(this is more likely than the quote stripe reading :/)

I wasn't given pause by beeboy, but this is making me reconsider. I still think the best course of action is to continue as normal for the day, and reevaluate during the next day. One of Mirhawk or FS is almost definitely scum, and scum!Ranger would probably deflect onto the townie, so why not move forward with the person who wasn't her target in case it's a ruse?

Okay, this makes more sense but here's what you're considering as I understand it:

• Ranger is town because effort and high resolution of catchup.
  
• Ranger could be scum bussing.
  
• Ranger could be scum trying to derail a wagon off a scum player onto a town player

This is true: Ranger is definitely [scum or town] and Ranger is definitely voting [scum or town]. But that doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

If you think the most logical option is that she's town, which I'm guessing you do because you started your earlier post with "Ranger is obvtown", then your vote means that you think she is town who is wrong about her reads. Why do you think this is the most likely of the four options?

Then she stepped in the midst of Sakura's sort by telling her you hadn't done anything out of the ordinary. It just did not feel right.

That makes sense to me.

Do you like amihan's posting because you want to give her a hug for being adorable? That's why I was town reading her.

At the time this was posted, I think that was playing into my read on her; not sure about nacho. How do you feel about podoboq's posting? I keep wanting to talk to him the way I wished someone had talked to me in WDPT.

beeboy wanted reads on a few people, so I just decided I'd post a read on the whole town,

On a scale of 1-7 where 1 is obvscum and 7 is obvtown. X is a person (or hydra) who I basically have no read on either because I haven't paid enough attention to their walls, or I'm just completely torn.

Of note, I scumread prolonged inactivity, especially when paired with useless posts and prod dodges. Sorry 'bout you, Snarky. Also, hydras have been hard for me to get a read on.

Amihan - 7
pistachi0n - 7
beeboy - 6
SirCakez - 5
Tammy - 5
Axelrod - 5
Sakura Hana - 5
tictac* - 5
davesaz - 5
Mirhawk - 4
Spiffeh - 4
Ranger - 4
Skybird - 3
True Ogre - 3
Friendless Seniors (hiplop/Errantparabola) - 2
SnarkySnowman - 2
dramonic* - 1

The Pied Piper (Plotinus/nachomamma8) - ??
Cerberus v666 - ??
THE WRONG LYNCH (Malakittens/goodmorning) - ??

This was super on the cuff, and obviously, all subject to change.

Is your townread on pistachi0n based solely on her miller claim or on something more? Can you point to some other posts of hers that you liked?

Can you talk some about the reads you're having trouble with, saying what you like about us and what you don't like or what your reservations are that are holding you back from a more solid read? It's okay to be unsure; waffling isn't a real scumtell.

I've found that sometimes thinking out loud about a read can help me make up my mind or help me figure out what I need to do to get a stronger read.



...I spent literally all day reading 9 pages. At least i'm only 16 pages behind now. This game is dense.

I hope it goes quicker tomorrow.

[The Pied Piper]

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[The Pied Piper]

So if Ranger is town, I think FS and Mirhawk are both equally good options. This is what I consider the most likely possibility.
If Ranger is scum, she is has narrowed her choices down to be the two highest scum reads of town (at the time). I think that this would be a play to get towncred. In this situation, let's assume that one of FS or Mirhawk are scum and the other is town. She would choose the push the town's wagon instead of the scum's wagon. So on the low chance that she's scum, lynch the person she ISN'T targeting, because in the case she's town, both options are equal anyway.

I don't think that Ranger is wrong about her reads, I just read Mirhawk differently. Either I'm wrong about my read on Mirhawk, or Ranger is scum. I think the former is more likely. I'm more confident in my townread on Ranger than my townread on Mirhawk, so if it came down to it, I would follow Ranger on this.

Ok, this does make more sense taking into account your own separate reads on FS and Mirhawk. You think Ranger is probably town, but if she's scum then it's more likely that she's voting town, and you happen to have a stronger scumread on the person that she's not voting, so it fits together.

Is your townread on pistachi0n based solely on her miller claim or on something more? Can you point to some other posts of hers that you liked?

Can you talk some about the reads you're having trouble with, saying what you like about us and what you don't like or what your reservations are that are holding you back from a more solid read? It's okay to be unsure; waffling isn't a real scumtell.

I've found that sometimes thinking out loud about a read can help me make up my mind or help me figure out what I need to do to get a stronger read.

Yeah, I'm townreading pistachi0n because of her (not countered) claim. Maybe that's the newb in me showing. I honestly haven't seen anything else form pistachi0n I'd consider indicative enough for me to read her, or maybe I missed something in skimming.

As for the people I can't read, this comes mostly from skimming on my part. I'm not reading everyone's walls in depth usually unless they're asking me questions. If I had to guess, I've liked you (PP) and TWL on the most part, and disliked Cerberus. I'm gaining more confidence in my read on Cerberus because of his attack on Ranger for switching between FS and Mirhawk.

I know that's not a complete answer, but it's the best I have at the moment. I'm expecting after n1 to have a lot more direction in ways to go about doing reads. In party games (which are most of my experience with mafia) we call this part of the game day 0, and people aren't expected to actually form reads of any kind. This part of playing the game is new to me, so I'm putting a lot of weight into concrete things (like pistachi0n's claim), and still learning how to get actual reads from more nuanced things.

I think it's okay to townread her for the claim on day 1, or to have her in the pile of things to be dealt with later. I've seen uncounterclaimed millers of both alignments before, but it's not something we need to resolve right now.

Generally if I'm townreading somebody for one reason I like to see if I can approach that read in a few other ways too. If I like one or two things about them and the rest is null then that's okay but the more reasons I have to like a person, the happier I am.

Thanks for the explanation of the rest. Day 1 takes practice. I think you're right that things will make more sense on day 2. 21 people is also a lot to keep track of; it's okay to focus in on a smaller group of players, too. I find in larges a lot of people just focus in on a handful of people at a time because it's too much to take in at once. As long as everybody doesn't pick the same handful, it's fine.

[The Pied Piper]

Axel, on your homesite, is it customary to claim at L-3?

[The Pied Piper]

@Spiffah
I don't really think either of them is going to catch up before the deadline.

Prepare to think otherwise.

[The Pied Piper]

I JUST WANT TAMMY AND NACHO TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO

IS THAT SO HARD

Why are we voting Ranger?

[The Pied Piper]

I'M GONNA DO IT I PROMISE

[The Pied Piper]

The only reason that I've seen and remember for why Ranger is scummy individually is that she had the top two lynch choices as her lynch candidates with is reasoning I disagree with because I don't think either of those reads are unreasonable I don't think.

[The Pied Piper]

Cakez and Ranger in particular are way too complacent with the most popular wagons today being their top two scum reads and doing no further digging beyond that

Why should they be doing further digging? If I feel good about the top two wagons being scum then I'm probably pretty happy with where the town is going in general so digging elsewhere doesn't make sense.

[The Pied Piper]

VOTE: Mirhawk
Back to this since tictac wagon was a no-go

defunct?
take this ogre

[The Pied Piper]

(by the way I don't know if I want to lynch Mirhawk, he looks better as of 35 pages ago)

[The Pied Piper]

Like especially since saying I caught her in Mafiaception is just wrong

It looks like she made up a reason to town read me because scum reading me wasn't going over well/gaining any traction

I don't know whether you did or did not catch her in Mafiaception but why isn't it possible for her to believe you did/did you scumread her?

Other thing is I can't imagine Ranger as scum scumreading a universal townread and not expecting pushback, so that point confuses me.

[The Pied Piper]

And Nacho I'd prefer you not explain why I'm wrong

Just give me someone you think is a better target and explain why if you're not satisfied

PEdit: Because there are 3ish more scum left

brb, catching up

[The Pied Piper]

Ew

Why?

[The Pied Piper]

Vote: Ranger

[The Pied Piper]

But, assuming you're really asking "Why do you think Seniors is the best vote right now (beyond what you already said in the post where you voted for him)." I don't know what else to say. His first vote was essentially an OMGUS vote on a lurker. He then made one decent post (#190), and went right into the series of post for which I voted him. (#252 and sequence). Those posts were all just bad.

I think that it would help me considerably if you dove into why these posts were bad; as it stands, what you've posted so far was just directing me to posts you dislike which doesn't really do much for me (I can't really tell if you'd like a post or not but I can figure out whether I think you're likely to believe something for the reasons you've given).

The reasoning overall is sound, but it's starting to feel too much like people harping on a town logic error. Mirhawk's responses don't even sound that bad (I might even be starting to like him read-wise), and how people from all across the board just enter taking only a short time to vote Mirhawk... I'm getting the impression that scum really like this wagon.

I probably can't word it very well right now, but I do think that the way that he defends himself sounds town (like he doesn't understand where his attackers are coming from, like he's just waiting for one little thing to be explained and then everything will be okay) even if the substance of his defense is still garbage.

In short what I'm saying is I'm seeing a scenario that Mirhawk is conveying (somewhat) but that others are ignoring: he had negative personal experience with Millers and instinctively didn't like my claim, and just didn't fully think it through, as town. I think there is a decent chance of that having happened.

His back and forth posts with Spiffeh where it's like they're talking past each other (mostly Spiffeh having to try and get Mirhawk to understand his point of why it looked scummy) seem to lend this credence.

My problem with this line of reasoning is that I see no reason why instinctively not liking a miller claim would force him to vote along with it like he believed it, and I don't really think any of his explanations get at why that particular line of thought was so wonky. You are absolutely correct that most Mirhawk conversations about the Miller bit feel like we're just talking past each other, so I guess I'd rather back off for now and look elsewhere.

[The Pied Piper]

Wait did you just go from disagreeing with the Ranger lynch to voting her in the same page or am i seeing things.

I feel better about games when I'm caught up and know what's going on; I had sort of hoped that I could talk to Spiffeh and get a quick read someone and lead a wagon, but, again, I'm a lot happier in my play when I'm actually looking at everything instead of trying to force a magical read. As a result, I'm catching up. I'm fine voting Ranger for now because Swordsworth was a reasonably strong scumread of mine; if I see something while I'm catching up that I feel strongly about, I'll change it, but not until then.

[The Pied Piper]

Nacho do you agree with my assessment of TWL's most recent post?

Not really, no.

As disengaged scum, I'd imagine Mala's top priority would be making sure that a scumbuddy didn't get lynched here.
As disengaged town, it makes sense that she would prioritize reading Tammy/I; I don't think she'd be expecting to find a strong scumread outside of Ranger/FS and then have the clout to push it through.

Does that make sense?

[The Pied Piper]

I had sort of hoped that I could talk to Spiffeh

What happened with me requesting you to talk like ages ago.

Spiffeh was engaged and pushing a strong read. You weren't.
My interest was finding a scumread that I could feel good about and push immediately in a reasonable amount of time; talking to Spiffeh seemed like it had a chance of doing that, remembering that I flaked on us talking ages ago and then talking about (what exactly, it's not like I have a solid grasp on what's going on) didn't.

[The Pied Piper]

All of these PP posts have been Nacho, correct?

Yes.

[The Pied Piper]

No, I actually did dodge it, and then disappeared when pressed again. Mirhawk already pointed this out when he returned afterward.

THANK YOU.

God this makes me feel so much better.

This feels undeniably genuine, though.

I'm really sorry to do this to everyone, and I detest replacing out, but I should not have joined this game. I've been out travelling and I haven't had the time to read before posting.

Good luck, fellow townies.

Saying he hasn't had time to read before posting is kind of like subtly pinning the blame on why he might seem scummy on not reading, which is... ridiculous, and makes his "here's a list of top suspects that are my scumreads and here's a generic question to go along with them" make even less sense.

[The Pied Piper]

I had sort of hoped that I could talk to Spiffeh

What happened with me requesting you to talk like ages ago.

Spiffeh was engaged and pushing a strong read. You weren't.

So me trying to read you isn't important?

You trying to read me isn't important as me trying to end up with a lynch that I'm happy with, no.
Do you think it should be?

[The Pied Piper]

I'm going to jump on the Mirhawk wagon.

Pistach, this post reads kind of weird to me. Like, you post that you're jumping on Mirhawk and then give reasons why and then don't do it? Were you still deciding at this point whether you wanted to vote him or not?

Ugh I feel like I have too many townreads and someone is dogging me

I'm starting to think I townread Mala/gm too easily

Weirdly enough, I agree with this when I read it this time; I don't have a scumread on the slot but I'm probably giving underestimating both by townreading them at this point.

That's partially why. His recent Dram push sucks too.

What is awful about his dram push?

I think it is pretty plausible for anyone unfamiliar with dram to be scum reading him.

That could explain the initial push. But I explained how Dram always plays like this and he's still pushing it.

He also explained why "Dram always plays like this was a dissatisfying answer. Why did you disagree with that?

[The Pied Piper]

hello, this is EP.
something very emotionally difficult has happened to me and I hope you understand that I don't think i'll be able to really spend time on mafia for the time being.
thank you for being understanding, especially to hiplop.
I will be more than willing to do an awesome catchup when I get back.

I'm really sorry to hear this. ((((Errant)))

[The Pied Piper]

VOTE: Friendless Seniors L-4

There's still time to make this happen.

[The Pied Piper]

If anything, it's the opposite; my established scum meta in half my scum games has been attacking players who were hard targets. (Masons and Mafia, Machina Mafia, Mafiaception, Mexican Standoff, maybe Blitz 26, for a start.)

Your main scumread was Imperium in Machina. They didn't have the thread presence they normally do in that game but you probably would've known that they were capable of being a very hard target. I think Wisdom/Titus might've been a harder day 1 target in that particular game but Imperium is always a hard target.

Lowell

was

really town in Masons and Mafia, that's true. (you didn't have time to do very much that game, your buddies screwed you pretty much by being too trigger happy and forgetting how many masons there were. Nightless games are hard as scum.)

I feel like I should remember Mexican Standoff better since I was spectating it and it only just ended but it was one of those games that I had good reads early on and then i was reading along but not paying all that much attention to what i was reading. I knew you were scum because of Persivul's meta.

In Mafiaception you were on Drixx/Porochaz/Spiffeh (a little bit). I feel like pepto's and dong's early posting just outed the entire scumteam in that game. It was just obvious who all of you were from their short ISOs and there was nothing you could do about that. (I kept trying to replace in and getting ninjaed.)

About blitz 26 I'd have to see if persivul and titus were unusually town in that game; they can be pretty lynchable sometimes.


(I do want to reply to your longer posts but I need to get lunch and I don't think replying to it

right now

is the best use of the last 15 hours of this dayphase; I feel 1965 is a sufficient tl;dr of what I think of it though!)

[The Pied Piper]

I thi she recently did the not claiming today as scum.

This doesn't really factor into my vote change either way. It's something about the rigor with which she responded to my questions about her catchup and was able to point to specific things, show me where I guessed wrong about why she was reading someone a certain way, the points she conceded. I felt while reading it that I could see the game through her eyes and I liked what I saw.

Surprisingly, I liked her response to my vague question about Blitz 19 (which was a towngame of hers); it wasn't an answer that I considered when I was thinking about how I'd interpret different responses to that. I think I would've disliked her finding something that was superficially similar to what I was saying but wasn't right but when she didn't remember what I was talking about I thought that if she

had

known exactly what I meant then I might have to worry she was doing it on purpose.

In Blitz 19 (open setup, fire and ice) on day 1,

Ranger

was townreading

rkvothe

. On night 1, he was crosskilled. Ranger entered on day 2 with saying that she thought he was the doctor and that's why she was townreading him so hard. Then she asked for some time to go looking through ISOs to recalibrate and find rkvothe's buddy. Town lynched her because they thought that scum would open with "hey you know that guy that died well i totally would've killed him because i thought he was a PR" because scum are always open and honest about their thoughts and feelings and motivations in the public thread. I am using sarcasm right now!

I thought she'd remember it because when I welcome people to my dead threads I try to always tell them what I liked about their play or commiserate or anyway try to find something that is both kind and true, which is sometimes difficult but it wasn't in Ranger's case. Anyway, I thought she'd remember it because she put onto her wiki the welcome to the dead thread PM in which I talked about how dumb her lynch was.

I felt that a lot of her posting about how she'd be willing to vote either Mirhawk or Seniors, in spite of them conveniently happening to be the two major wagons, and her honesty about not caring which of them got lynched was towner that not. It felt like "well my reads are my reads and i'm not going to manufacture more convenient ones just because you don't like them because i'm town."



Additionally, there was a brief moment in the last newbie game that I modded when both scum were at L-1 and there were no counterwagons at all (let alone viable ones) and that moment did not feel like this moment. The thread energy was different.


Also and I don't feel like going into details on this but there was something in a few of her posts that gave me a feeling of a bunch of things clicking into place at once that I'd seen this thing from her as town a bunch of times and couldn't remember seeing it from her as scum, and it's the sort of feeling that i get when i'm about to have a meta tell on somebody but I need to actually do the research to see whether I'm seeing a real thing or not (which I don't have time to read all of her games right now and i'm going to have to actually read her ISOs in entirety not just skim a few posts here and there but i'll make it a project soonish I think).

It could just be pattern matching but I don't think it is.

VOTE: Friendless Seniors L-4

There's still time to make this happen.

Well the hero returneth.

What do you mean "There's still time" when you yourself voted Ranger before I left for work today, tipping the balance? Seriously.

VOTE: Seniors

Also, Cerberus, I don't think you've as much as sneezed in my direction before. Saying that I created two wagons you're not interested in is crap and I think you know that.

*grgrrrgrrrrhmmm*

He very clearly wasn't (and isn't) caught up with the thread (neither am I for that matter; I'm winging it with only 58 pages memorised and another 20 pages that I'm not done digesting yet). You can see that from his 1903 when he doesn't understand why Ranger is being voted and 1919 where he votes her that the vote is more about getting his head into the game than anything, though he was aware of what my reads were and stuff. I was okay with the Ranger wagon at the time -- not completely sold on it, just okay with it -- before her posting today.

He was trying to engage with people in real time, then realised he needed to read the thread, got started on that, and then was called away.

I don't believe his vote on her tipped the balance, but maybe i'm wrong; he was the 7th voter on her wagon, beeboy was the 8th, you were the 9th. He was moving us off of Mirhawk at the time.

Meanwhile, a lot of content has appeared from Ranger that took me from "I need to talk to Ranger about my concerns" to "yeah we're not lynching this." I want to talk to her some more but I'd rather do it early in the day phase because I'm moving away from wanting to scumhunt her and towards wanting to sync with her. But time that I could spend syncing with Ranger right now is time better spent lynching somebody else.


Are you sheeping Tammy on Cakez to make a point or?


I could do Cakez if Cakez were viable but I really don't think he is. I've got a half written case on him lying around in our hydra PT though!

[The Pied Piper]

We do have our own hydra thread. It is 25 pages long. Both of us were v/la for a while and I'm more caught up than he is. He knows what my reads are and I caught him up to the best of my ability but there's nothing like reading the thread for yourself and that's what he needed to do.

I fully understand why you're paranoid of me. It's okay. It doesn't bother me. Either you'll see the light or you won't. I've been trying to give you space about it because I get it. Your paranoia is part of why I'm townreading you because I figured that when you didn't know that I knew who you were you wouldn't bother to fake it as scum.

The question about sheeping Tammy was less about the sheeping and more about...you've been talking a lot about the looming deadline and how we really need to lynch somebody and that Tammy needs to move her vote to somewhere useful because the wagon she's currently voting is at L-10 and then after your discussion with her in which you don't seem to be convinced and are still worrying about deadlines, you vote Cakez and bring that wagon to L-9 and I just find the entire thing confusing but you do you.

pedit: it's okay, i wasn't offended.

[The Pied Piper]

You mustn't understand me very well then and I'm not all that surprised. Just for the fact that sometimes I don't understand why I go in certain directions even though I -could- rationalise it afterward.

I don't think I do. One of the reasons I play is to practice understanding people.

Why did Nacho vote Ranger then? Or is this particular lacking to the point you need to guess at it? What were his previous reads on Ranger?

Nacho voted Ranger because we talked about which of Seniors/Ranger I preferred and at the time I was preferring Ranger though my mind wasn't really made up: I had concerns about Ranger but I was waiting on her answers to my questions.

I thought beeboy's comment had merit when he said that people were giving Seniors space after we talked about how sometimes people get boxed in as town, but people weren't giving Ranger that same space, though I also wasn't seeing signs of distress from Ranger that I was seeing from Seniors (which I didn't think were alignment indicative but I did think they were genuine; I've played in games that were toxic to me as both alignments.)

He said that he was dropping a vote on Ranger, hoping for reactions, and then a bit later he said that he felt he didn't understand the game as well as he would like to because of the pages he hadn't read and he needed to get caught up to find the right direction. It's one thing hearing about events second hand from me or reading posts that I found important enough to quote into our PT and it's another thing reading the game yourself and seeing things in order.

He went back to where he had been, spent an hour reading 8 pages and then he needed to take care of something elsewhere.

His previous thoughts about Ranger were that he was bothered by Swordsworth's 127, so he was mostly sheeping my read there when he voted her. The last comment in his catchup was about a post on page 45, which was before Ranger entered because she entered in the 1200s somewhere so page 49 or 50 i think.


Now that we're both back from our respective V/LAs we are looking forward to getting caught up and staying caught up to interact in real time. I was dealing with something difficult in my personal life but I'm starting to bounce back from it now and he was busy working on something site related. You'll be seeing more of both of us soon.

Do you seriously think I'm attempting to start a wagon on Cakez? I don't think anyone one else does. I want to read that naïveté in you as town plot but I just need some reference point on you that I simply don't have.

I don't. I think you were making a statement of some kind to Tammy when you voted Cakez. I didn't understand the statement, but I didn't think you sincerely believed you were going to get him lynched either.



I'm sorry you alt-slipped; I hadn't told nacho who you were beyond that he hadn't played with you often or recently (in the past couple years).

I keep track of people's reads as both alignments; it's one of my primary means of scumhunting. It is true that I rely more on my ridiculous chart as scum and more on ISO mapping as town but I use both as both. When I was a newbie in my first game, I kept having this problem where people would ask me what I thought and I kept saying what everybody else thought instead. I was town, I just didn't understand how to answer what I was being asked. Eventually I figured out how to turn that weakness into a strength.

I don't remember if you had us as true null or cautious townread that you don't trust as far as you can throw us. I think you were happier with nacho's posting than mine, and you're unhappy that we're hard to tell apart. If you see an american spelling you can know it's him.

[The Pied Piper]

Amihan, what do you think of Ranger's recent posts?

[The Pied Piper]

Yeah it's like 11am tomorrow my time and it's currently 9pm.

True Ogre probably isn't awake yet; it's about 4am there now.

[The Pied Piper]

ugggggh this fucking game.

I hated the way Amihan dismissed my ranger towncase so quickly it was like she didn't even read it. I'm mad at a bunch of dead people too but ranting about it won't do any good so I'll skip it. I'm mad at myself for falling asleep at like 8:30 too.

Ranger only had one more vote on her than seniors at the time all of you were insisting that Ranger was the only viable wagon and that the seniors wagon had fallen apart.

In addition to Davsto in Paint Mafia, massive was a scum fruit vendor in Butterfly and I was a scum fruit vendor in Tarot. In Tarot I could send youtube videos of my choosing and I convinced a townie to loverise himself with another townie and hammer himself with this youtube video. I got more scum utility out of my fruit vendor ability than I did out of my reflexive roleblocking (was never targetted) or my doctor (the town vig never shot anybody). Nobody would fakeclaim fruit vendor if they're not a fruit vendor but it's not a town-only role.

That said, I can't find anything in Spiffeh or Tammy's ISOs to suggest that they were lovers with each other and hiplop would've definitely killed Tammy, not Spiffeh. That is enough for me to not be interested in Seniors toDay.

I don't believe that [

Ranger

/Seniors/Mirhawk] are all town and I hated Mirhawk's posting towards the end of the day.

Cakez, Mirhawk, and Cerb looked the worst at the end of the day to me but Cerb shares my wrath about the Ranger lynch so we can be growly buddies for now.

I have a weak reason to think that tictac might be town but I'm not ready to share it with the class; in time it will either become a strong reason or I'll lynch them.

I'm okay with the pistachi0n wagon but I have a half written case on this in my hydra PT left over from day 1:

VOTE: Cakez L-8

[The Pied Piper]

Piper I have a question for you, remind me tomorrow when I'm back.

Okay

[The Pied Piper]

ty, probs 24 hours or so.

Thoughts on TWL if any?

I didn't mind what I was seeing from them early day 1; I didn't mind their end of the day behaviour either. Mala was clearly not caught up but she was trying to be around and she seemed to believe people who said that Ranger was the only viable wagon.

I'd like to see more from them. I think the night kill analysis case on them is okayish but I think pushing them for inactivity is lame.

I still feel like Mala would have been posting differently early on if she were scum together with my scumreads, even though I have different scumreads now than I did the last time I said that.

I'm still townleaning them but they're sort of in the middle of my reads list. I only have four people who aren't at least "town enough i guess," though, which isn't the right number.

I want to read the last forty pages with the amount of attention to detail they deserve but it's going to have to happen on a day that I'm less underslept. tomorrow, perhaps.

[The Pied Piper]

Really don't think Seniors is scum here. This isn't an elaborate game like Tarot, I don't see something like that being put in.
^ post from Tictac was terrible. Literally no commet on anything but Seniors is town from claim (obvious) and going back to an ancient Pist scumread to wagon.

i have Seniors as townish from NKA but I don't see how you'd arrive at "not elaborate" with the amount of role PMs a town player has available to them at this point in time. It's not role madness from the Ranger flip, but fruit vendor is a role that can be given to either side. Paint and Butterfly weren't role madness either and had an ordinary amount of VTs.

[The Pied Piper]

Scum fruit vendor is a standard role. In tarot, fruit vendor was only a part of my role, but in butterfly it massive's entire role and same for davsto in paint.

37 results for mafia fruit vendor

29 results for town fruit vendor

so yeah. it's a confirmable role that can be of either alignment.

[The Pied Piper]

Probably, but I'd imagine the amount of false feedback would be the same for both alignments.

If I limit it to the first post of the game, 4 mafia fruit vendor and 7 town fruit vendor.

This will of course leave out any games where it was called something else (visitor, wig vendor, ice cream vendor or where the player survived to endgame and the mod didn't update the op...you'll notice paint and tarot aren't in the mafia results there. but it's good enough.

[The Pied Piper]

Yeah I agree about Seniors in particular because they would've killed Tammy not Spiffeh.

The confirmable role != confirmable alignment thing is more of a pet peeve than anything. I'll stop arguing about this now.

[The Pied Piper]

Also, I don't think you or Nacho covered off why you were switching between Ranger and Seniors yesterday. That was some really weird behaviour there and I'd like some explanation from your hydra which isn't "I guess the other head was thinking ..."

My vote from Seniors to Ranger was because I wanted to engage with the game at the end of the day and that's where I thought we had a better chance for a scum lynch based on what I'd read up to that point. The reason my play around that time looks so weird is because I was mostly just flailing about - I stopped posting near the end of the day and instead worked on catching up again because I didn't like what I was posting and felt that the most important thing that I had to do was finish the catchup and let Plotinus take control instead of flailing and hoping that I would get lucky.

I'm not sure this makes sense because I'm tired and hungover, but, if it doesn't, I'll just take another stab at it tomorrow.

[The Pied Piper]

I should've gone v/la on Friday; I haven't been feeling well and it's affecting my communication. I can make sentences today but I can't make sentences that mean what I want them to.

[The Pied Piper]

i owe you a response when i can words again but in the meantime I am okay with

VOTE: Pistachi0n L-7

[The Pied Piper]

Unvote

I need a little extra time this week to catch up, would rather not lynch pistach quickly (even if the explanation/claim doesn't check out) so that I can be back to 100% for this game. I know I've been in perpetual catchup mode but I've been in perpetual catchup mode in a lot of things lately and I'm starting to see the sun breaking out from between the clouds, so hopefully that carries to here.

EP, your question is directed at a Plot post; I'll let them answer when they feel like it unless the answer is in the hydra QT which I also am behind on (>.>)

[The Pied Piper]

I haven't found any scum hunting from the Cakes slot that I actually like.
Discuss.

I was scumreading him for playing similarly in a different game, he flipped town. I'm not sold yet.

I don't actually think that beeboy's accusation of Cakes is particularly reasonable; the major accusation that beeboy had against him seemed to be that he was picking on shallow reasons as opposed to things that were actually scummy, and the two main points that he brought up in order to back that accusation up was Cakez disliking his waffling and Cakez calling Sword's replace out scummy. I thought Cakez backed up why it was a scummy replace out well (there are several players I play with where they hate playing scum and often collapse under pressure, if Swords is a scum player like this, I can see why Cakez would dislike the replace out + he wasn't the only person who called it a scum replace out), and I thought the scum motivation behind waffling that he offered, while it wasn't something that I agree with personally, made enough sense and was something that I could see someone genuinely believing.

The only part of Cakez's side that I find a bit hard to believe is him finding beeboy's waffling on Sakura scummy when beeboy was pushing FS with pretty dogged determination and conviction, and beeboy ended up changing his reads quickly enough where there is no way he could have been "changing them to fit the gamestate". So, the explanations for why he thought the things he was pushing were scummy meshed well enough, but the actual implementation of his reasoning didn't.

Pistach, my big problem with this commentary here is that it's shallow, doesn't really match up with the rest of your play; the only two times that you mentioned Cakez were to agree with the podoboq town read in 737 and to ask a fairly neutral question in 1070. What in Cakez's ISO do you think is shallow scum hunting or approaching things at a bad angle?

What solid discussion? You voted and unvoted within 8 posts.

And to expand on my last Cakez point, I also found this as a reason for disliking the vote switch to be more reasonable than the original waffling charge; it was a quick change, it didn't really seem to have any followable logic behind it; this followup makes me feel like the waffling charge originally seemed weak initially more due to poor wording than weird intent.

Geez I suck at engaging scum reads.

Ok...I side-eye any sort of self-deprecating post in this game.

This is what I generally envision a potshot to be; it looks like you just drew out that beeboy's post was self-depreciate it and clocked him a few scum points even though he doesn't seem to be a significant scumread of yours and you were just agreeing with him about Cakez.

What scum motivation is there behind beeboy saying that he sucks at engaging scum reads? What do you think the intent behind that statement was?

You literally ISO'ed me and picked at a bunch of random shit nobody had mentioned yet. Despite the effort into making the post it feels super lazy as well. I don't think you looked very closely at the posts I was responding to, which if you had a problem with my responses you should have.

This is a reference to pistachi0n's 1067, which is her case on Mirhawk. I don't really think that this is a poor interpretation of her case against him, fact checking work is below:

Pistachion's first point in 1067 is that Mirhawk saying that all dave does until his vote on Mirhawk is make sidelong glances at wagon's is a reach, which isn't something I agree with (and I don't think anyone who read dave's early posts would agree with either, even if they had a town read on him). Dave's early play is pretty passive, and I can see where Mirhawk can see dave trying to egg on major wagons (example: 88, which came on the heels of TWL's push on Axelrod not three posts before).

Her second point against Mirhawk is saying that him pushing dave is hypocritical because he's made comments on wagons too, which is pretty much completely wrong; Mirhawk's play, as he notes, is pretty much the opposite of dave's in that he has a lot of aggression in an unpopular target and is much more focused than dave (see: 82).

The other stuff in her attack is mostly agreeing with others or criticizing him for blanket dismissing suspicions, so I'd classify the significant thrust of the case (as in the one with the majority of pistachi0n's original thoughts) as those two points above.

Also wondering what Pistach's read on dramonic is at this point.

[The Pied Piper]

I didn't like the way you sidled up to the Seniors vote and then came in with a big definitive assessment of what made them scum in 298. It seemed overjustified considering you'd already been saying that Seniors were worth a vote. And while I acknowledge that could have come from some suspicion of beeboy and then a reverting of heart from you, I find it rare that town articulates their conviction behind a vote, by way of a long and strong post in that manner.

I think, if I'm interpreting this correctly, you're missing some context here.

46, which is the Axelrod post where he says that he thinks Seniors was worth a vote, he also asks if FS was a better vote than the RVS vote that he had down. If I was a gambling man, I'd bet two shiny Laprases that Axelrod only said that they were worthy of a vote to set up the more right than Wrong quote.

As for the big post in general, I don't think that it's rare for old-timey players to express their suspicion for long and strong posts in the manner that Axelrod did. As for the actual points he brought up, I didn't think they were bad; I know that many people agreed with the "one post is not a push" line, and I can understand why he would find hiplop's frustration weird based on what didn't really seem like a significant or overblown post at the time.

Overall I think I remember the intial strong push on Mirhawk coming from events surrounding the Miller claim and I think a lot of that was overblown. As in the individual points to me didn't matter so much (and that's not entirely related to pushes on Mirhawk actually).

This is interesting to me, actually.
What was your opinion of Mirhawk's behavior around the miller claim? The reason that I've been coming around to a Mirhawk town read is basically because of everything else except for the miller situation which I still can't really wrap my head around; I think his scum hunting looks genuine, I think the way he defends himself looks genuine (I don't think he ended up defending himself excessively considering the strength of the push against him originally).

Well I really hate this. That thing I said about focusing your scumhunting elsewhere....yeah.

I didn't really understand what you were driving at here; this was a response to Errant's push on Axel in response to his push on him. What about focusing scum hunting elsewhere and why is it scummy?

On Dramonic: Cakez says this is just how Dram plays. If that's just true, and Dram is town, fuck him anyway

VOTE: Dramonic

. He's contributing nothing. Call it policy, because it is. Dramonic doesn't deserve to survive into day two if he insists on being useless. If he's scum, we get no opportunities to read him. If he's town, he's the most expendable member of town.

I entirely expect him to come in with a oneliner about how I'm scum, and so are the other people voting for him.

Dram, if you're actually town, and you're seriously so dense that you assume we're all scum for disliking this play, then ISO people and start giving some logic that town can use.

Tonally, I like this post.
I don't think this timing is something that comes from podoboq as scum; if I remember correctly, dramonic wasn't really getting significant heat at this point in time, and I can see how podoboq would be led to getting annoyed with dramonic all over again when seeing someone who he thought had a reasonable push on Dram being pushed for it.

[The Pied Piper]

@Piper - my question specifically was - do you think Cakez as scum comes in as soon as the thread opens to push a wagon on tictac expecting to get away with that? It seems to me to be unorchestrated, which I'm associating with town.

I do; in Borderlands, Cakez opened day 2 by bussing beeboy. Day 3 doesn't really count because he was sheeping a guilty in multiball but he voted within an hour of the thread opening, but on day 4, he opened by voting the SK. I think starting a day phase with a vote is probably not alignment indicative for Cakez.

Also, I don't think you or Nacho covered off why you were switching between Ranger and Seniors yesterday. That was some really weird behaviour there and I'd like some explanation from your hydra which isn't "I guess the other head was thinking ..."

I had already answered [url=hhttp://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7815129#p7815129]why Nacho voted her in the first place[/url], and he has since weighed in.

The reason I moved our vote to Seniors was based on Ranger's subsequent posts, which I don't think anybody bothered to read in any detail. If you open up the long post in which she explains her reads in one window and load the game thread in another window and have them side by side so you can see what she's talking about it's very clear that her reads weren't faked or manufactured at all, that they made sense given what was going on in the game at that time, that her explanation for the things that I was concerned about makes sense and fits. I don't think anybody even read it. They just dismissed it because they didn't care.

As a result of my engagement with her, she became one of my stronger townreads.

I wrote a towncase for her that I think nobody read even though I tried to format it as legibly as I could.

I have been on the fence about seniors for a long time and even when i voted them I felt that they were the wagon that was most likely to be scum that was actually attainable at that stage in the game; I didn't have the stamina to go after stronger scumreads who were widely townread by then. I'd been up late the night before and fell asleep early. There wasn't time.

Ranger tends to have good reads when she's town; there's a reason she's been nominated for paragon this year, and she seemed really sure of Seniors/Mirhawk. Beeboy, Ranger, and goodmorning all saying the same thing about Seniors meta was also a factor in my read. If one person is saying something about meta then that's not very interesting but if everyone who has played with them recently is saying it then that's another thing entirely.


So I was thinking toDay that seniors might be town because I'm pretty sure that hiplop would've kill Tammy because he respects her towngame quite a bit but the way they've engaged with me today has felt a lot like the way hiplop engaged with me during that blitz. I made a post where I didn't connect all the dots in my logic because I wasn't feeling well and instead of asking me questions about it he just calls me scum for it and in my experience scum are more likely to jump on me for not communicating well than town.

It's like people think the difference between my town and scum games is that when I'm town I take extra care to polish my posts so that there's nothing even slightly incoherent about them and when I'm scum I don't bother to keep up with appearances...and that's just really not true.

I'll likely do more investigation on plot before I really do anything to push that

I did like this, though. This isn't something you did in the blitz when you were scum, offering to investigate me further. Did anything come of this? Did you do any digging into my meta? What did you learn?

piper, I gotta question for you involving what you say and the vote you place in 2399.
You think that there's scum in Mirhawk and us.
You think that Mirhawk and Cakez looked bad.
Common denominator is mirhawk- why vote cakez?

And I like that Errant is at least asking me questions. The reason I voted Cakez is that I have more than one scumread. I think that there's scum in Mirhawk-Seniors because of wagon dynamics and the feeling that the thread had as wagons were rising and falling and that's all very nice but it's not something that's about you specifically. I don't have the time right now to go through your posts and make a case in either direction.

Cakez is the player whose in thread behaviour bothers me the most right now, the one that nobody seemed to be looking at and who I thought I'd have the stamina to go after toDay but then I completely fell apart because of IRL stuff and didn't have the language to make that case after all. The case is still in bulletpoint form in my hydra PT waiting for me to be able to polish it up and take it out.

tl;dr: I voted Cakez because he was my primary scumread.

tictac/pied piper make the most sense as scum there, I'd think

VOTE: pipes. really clumsy wagon handling

Nacho is behind on the thread. He knew there was a guilty on pistachi0n and that day phases with guilties tend to go quickly and he wanted to have time to get all the way caught up before the end of the day phase and he also wanted to give me some more time to recover.

Additionally, nothing about either of our scumgames is clumsy. If you're voting us because of the coincidence that Nacho happened to unvote before it turned out that pistachi0n was town then that's lame.


This post is too long but I'm still not languaging well enough to make it shorter. I'm sorry.

[The Pied Piper]

no, your scum game is very calculated plot. And this feels sorta like it.

but you voted us for my wagon handling
what was wrong with my wagon handling?

[The Pied Piper]

i'm lurking around until friday when i have time to bring the sky down.
until then, i'll be watching and waiting in my corner.

[The Pied Piper]

hi itlepip!

@dram: he

is

endearing, you're right. why are you scumreading such an endearing creature?

@errant i read the first 38 posts in your iso and it took me 3 hours and then i ran out of reading comprehension but maybe soon there will be more reading comprehensions. i'm having a lot of trouble using language lately, just short windows of clarity that aren't long enough to get everything done in but i'll keep trying.

[The Pied Piper]

yo plotty was 2660 towny or scummy? Cause I'm pretty sure it is super alignment indicative I just keep on flipping on which way.

wooooooords words words

but i think, that i thought, that it was a townpost when for the first time i read it through?

would be towner if it used

Code: Select all

[post]142[/post]

instead of #142 to reference posts (i am telling a joke but i campaign for use of post tags seriously too)

i dont have the reading comprehensions for this right now but i think, that i'd remember if it bothered me earlier. he seems to be trying to understand and looking for extant truth rather than forging a new truth. that is good.

axel, gun to your head, in conclusion, you have weak townlean or weak scumlean on tictac? what would your read be if null weren't an option?

[The Pied Piper]

It's gonna be a little late and I'm not going to be up forever, so I'm going to catch up on Day 2 tonight and fill in the cracks tomorrow.

VOTE: tictac
Wagon here asap

From the point of mine that it is uninformed as it is, I do know that tictac is a vote that shouldn't be made today. Don't vote tictac; you make angels cry every time that you do.

Spiffeh's final non-Ranger pushes were on Tictac, Axel and TWL. Very confident in scum there.
Snarky was obv a vig shot, sucks that he was town but he's gone at least, and he was Hated too.

Sorry Ranger my gut was right about you but I couldn't stop the lynch

1) When were in the middle of saying that you knew Ranger was town but you couldn't stop her lynch, you also said that her lynch would break the game open in terms of reads. What did you mean and why wasn't there followup on it today?
2) I don't remember you suspecting any of these three overly much yesterday and, while I understand considering dead town's reads, following them seems a bit shallow and pre-planned. Reassure me; what are your current reads on these three and why?

TWL needs to post more. If Mala can't, GM can.

I understand frustration when a player is lurking and you want them to get engaged in the game but generally when Mala is busy she's just flat busy. She's not more active as town than she is as scum and this is a bitch of a game to get caught up in when you're behind (myself as a prime example), and so I'm not really dinging her that much for being inactive. The one post that Spiffeh brought up about TWL that makes sense to me is her focus near deadline, but I pointed out why I thought that the point specifically didn't hold with her. The reason why I got aggressive (with you, I think) was because it's annoying as hell to be attacked for lurking when there's not shit you can do to change it/when you're a capable enough player that possesses the magical ability to post as either alignment.

No. Vig if it exists was always going to shoot Snarky or dramonic. Mirhawk was under suspicion as it was and could be lynched.

Different power roles play different ways and I don't even know why this is an argument in the first place.

I'm trusting Cakez to be more accurate than me at this stage.

Also I want to hear from pistach now I've accused them of being scum.

Why exactly are you choosing Cakez in particular to rely on?

Skybird who is basically today's lynchbait.

Where did this come from?
I don't know how "they haven't explained it" somehow makes them wrong and you/Cakez right when you/Cakez also haven't explained anything at all.

I still kind of think Seniors is town.

You're probably right. I don't think your wagon analysis piece was going to result in anything productive; two town counter wagons doesn't really mean much with how the scum team was behaving.

Really don't think Seniors is scum here. This isn't an elaborate game like Tarot, I don't see something like that being put in.

Something elaborate like a... flavored fruit vendor? What?

OK yea I get the point it's not impossible. I just don't think it's the situation here unless something else comes up to change my mind.

I also don't exactly understand your perspective here.
You say that Mafia Fruit Vendor is unlikely because it's "too complex". Plot points out how that makes absolutely no sense. You go "yeah, you're right, I just still believe my original point!".

I really am not liking pied piper. This looks like Plotscum. Nacho looks town but I really am having a hard time shaking plot-scum here.

I am currently both Plotinus and Nacho; come talk to me. I remember in the future that hiplop says something like he didn't like Plot's clumsy wagon handling but that doesn't exactly seem like a scum tell to me (and especially not like a Plotinus-specific one); did you have a different reason for being uncomfortable with Plot? What did you think of their reads?

Why is everyone so opposed to Tictac all of a sudden?

Do you have a reason for wanting Tictac all of a sudden, or did you just decide that yesterday you would call out tictac and then you'd be able to get them lynched tomorrow?

@Piper - my question specifically was - do you think Cakez as scum comes in as soon as the thread opens to push a wagon on tictac expecting to get away with that? It seems to me to be unorchestrated, which I'm associating with town.

Yes.
What was so magical or exciting about Cakez pushing tictac at the beginning of the day? Why did you think he was more likely to be accurate because of it?

Why is this game dead all of a sudden
Spiffeh y did you have to die with your great activity ugh
For the tictac case - just look at his posts on the last page and tell me that's not scum.

While I'll commend Cakez if he's scum here because this post is pretty decently ballsy, this post also feels pretty incredibly fake. As I've said before, I don't mind when people read into dead town's reads and all that good stuff but following them blindly when you didn't really follow the player that closely the day before is pretty fucking iffy, and these sorts of "I'll miss you Spiffeh!" posts never really ring true to me.

[The Pied Piper]

I am engaging you as much as I am because you are my strongest town read by play and additionally the person whose opinion I care the most about at this point in time. If you'd like to experience magic with me, you're going to have to understand how I work (when I have a read, it is obvious when reading my posts. if you ask who my reads are and I give you an answer you didn't know before, I am scum.) and you're gonna have to put a little extra into working with me because I can be a very high-maintanence partner at some times. If you think me questioning you re:Cakez is unreasonable or ridiculous, let me know; I don't understand what you're seeing in him early this day and I don't know if you're crazy or I am.

[The Pied Piper]

Nice pedit.

[The Pied Piper]

But, instead of just voting me and declaring to the world that you think you know how to read me,

engage me

- I'm here, I'm talking, I'm posting things, and I'm not going anywhere. You know that there's not any way in hell you're getting me lynched regardless of my alignment without paying at least a tiny bit of attention to my actual posts.

[The Pied Piper]

VOTE: tictac

I'm OK with this, but for the benefit of town, Cakez, you should make a real case.

In going through your ISO, you had tictac as a 5 on your scale from 1 to 7 with 7 being town. (post 1445) I don't see a case against tictac in your ISO. How about you making a case if you are OK with voting tictac.

Dave, talk to me about why we need more dram votes please.

I don't really think that either of these posts are legitimate inquiries into anything; the only thing that you're doing here is telling other people to do more work, you're not reading either of them and you're not giving any opinion on who they are pushing. Like, if you're OK with it, why don't you make the case?

Dave, talk to me about why we need more dram votes please.

You guys... this isn't town. This is scum trying to be helpful.

I don't think so. I see her as town wanting to get a grip on whether I'm on to something solid in my dram push. Right now there isn't much behind my dram push, but I'm reasonably certain that Skybird's actions come from town.

I've followed most things that you've said this game, but this piece in particular doesn't really make sense to me. I don't think the way Marquis worded his point made it something game changing or anything, but this is you saying that you believe her because you believe her. Mind elaborating?

You brought it up as a scum point against me. I'm responding with the truth.

This post looked pretty solid though.

And here in particular, pushing to lynch someone based (at least in part) off of it (or even chain a series of lynches) is especially bad.

I'm in complete agreement with this piece; SirCakez brought up a tictac lynch at the end of the day when it was being offered as a flash wagon that probably wasn't going to go through and then immediately moves into lynching them because ???

[The Pied Piper]

My initial thoughts on Cakez is fairly obvious given what I've already claimed and goes to the nature of my own result. Which is why I don't really want to talk about it and I thought you'd be clever enough to pick up on it.

I'm drawing a blank on it right now, but I'll think on it later and maybe I'll be cleverer then.

Regarding Skybird being lynch-bait - I thought I had an almost-sure thing in pistachion being scum. Therefore I was reading into associatives too much especially regarding an Amihan/Marquis connection. When that was proven false I reverted to being a bit concerned and then had a read of the follow-ups she decided to post back to me. I'm not sold on her town but I think I have a town-tickle there.

This makes sense to me.

[The Pied Piper]

This is a little similar to Cakes post, but not as bad.

Expressing surprise at a kill is fine. But Cakez floating the idea of a tictac wagon yesterday and then using a dead!Spiffeh as a reason to instantly wagon tictac is not so fine.

Opinion of Skybird plummeting.

I am also not a fan of TicTac so far.

What bothered you about that Skybird post? The implication seemed to be that you thought she was scummier because she didn't understand why you were voting dram and that implication, if true, is a crappy one.

Also wondering what's bothering you about Tictac.

K time to analyze that crappy Pist wagon.

All right

*cracks knuckles*

Let's see what there is to see.

tictac/pied piper make the most sense as scum there, I'd think

VOTE: pipes. really clumsy wagon handling

My initial wagon was to attack Cakez some more for even caring about that wagon in particular, but now I find myself confused that so many people suddenly decided that yes, wagon analysis for this wagon would be a good idea. Someone who was a town read for many claimed an investigative result on the miller who hasn't done anything. The people who voted were likely the people who were around and who read the post; I'm pretty sure Marquis didn't but he's having fun with his Skybird thing and I'm pretty sure that Cakez didn't for god knows what reason.

Why was this wagon the wagon?

Also, why are you so... serious? I don't think there's anything helpful in that comment to Mirhawk; it just feels unnecessarily rude. But then you made a snarky comment to me so at least I know you have a sense of humor, if reserved for yourself.

I liked this post!

[The Pied Piper]

And I liked it not that I thought the point was fabulous or anything but because I don't think that is how Marquis as scum approaches True Ogre. I think that as town he sometimes has the tendency to push on things that most people wouldn't focus on whereas as scum he's far more image-conscious and tends to try to curb that tendency; this is one of those weird town Marquis things.

I saw Axelrod's wagon analysis but only skimmed his Ranger wagon analysis stuff. Unfortunately, I only realized that he was doing Ranger wagon analysis (and not pistachi0n wagon analysis) when I hit vote #5, so will probably do his posting a little more justice in the morning.

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

Like with words! Not just unvoting.

This is another Cake push that I don't really like.

So I got a question for you. Your "result" was that she "wasn't miller". So you got "innocent child" as a result? And this was something to wagon? I'm trying to figure out a non-bastard way you could receive that result and have it lead you to believe it was worth a vote.

True Ogre is smart enough where, as town, he wouldn't push a player in the way that he did unless the result very strongly pointed to scum. He's also smart enough where, as scum, he wouldn't do something as monumentally stupid as faking an investigative result in order to mislynch pistachi0n would have to be.

Eh that's acceptable. Truth be told that's what I thought you would say anyways.

Why was that acceptable? The only reason you had a more significant response than Skybird did is because you were questioned and I know that you don't see any legitimate point in Cakez's "skybird didn't use words to describe why she was leaving the wagon even though it was self-evident!" point.

Like seriously, this is the second time you mis represent my actions based on events that are going on which should speak for themselves.

This is... weird.
I don't think Axelrod's "how do we know you read Spiffeh's ISO" was a good one, but Axelrod didn't misrepresent you and it wasn't immediately obvious you agreed with Spiffeh's case when you didn't say anything about it.

SpyreX sure.

I miss Spyspy

I'll put it this way Ploti. I'm not townreading your slot. And I probably should be given Ranger's reads. I'm back to several superpositions regarding Seniors/Mirhawk. On Cakez - I don't get the cases so far but on the other hand he hasn't done anything I feel advances himself today aside from the initial vote out of the gate.

Do you see perspective on Cakez a little more now? I understand that it's probably annoying to follow my reasoning through quote stripe walls but it's the only thing that I can do to catch up and read things properly.

No, it's gotta be rolecop. I'm betting Pistachions role (miller+IC) has a nonstandard name.

Why?
Granted, this looks town as fuck but why?

I am REALLY worried about you saying this, plot.

Why?

I think cerb's last post was him being scared of my read on him so he is already discrediting it.

YES! That's the spirit pip! You channel all that beeboy slot aggression into tunneling me, and I'll either ignore you or start playing mafia properly!

I like this post far more than I should.
I got all perky and excited when True Ogre started attacking me, probably partly because I thought it would be the foothold into the game that I was missing before.

I'm too tired to read things but I've skimmed up to 113 and I've seen a bunch of votes on Cakez and that makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Vote: SirCakez

True Ogre, this is your answer.

[The Pied Piper]

Yep!

[The Pied Piper]

Although you don't really need to respond to all of that, the parts that are particularly important to me involve your opening to the day (what happened to Ranger lynch bringing a bunch of information and why did you follow Spiffeh in the way that you did), what your Skybird vote was about because it sucked, and what your response to the pistachi0n wagon was about. You said you missed the claim investigative result and that's good and well but I don't understand why you didn't say anything about the pistachi0n wagon while it was happening if you thought it was such a piece of shit wagon.

[The Pied Piper]

Good morning Cakez!

[The Pied Piper]

I didn't think my questions were probing and in depth enough where you need a concerted block of time to respond to them, but maybe I'm just getting impatient in my old age

[The Pied Piper]

Cerb, everything okay with you?

[The Pied Piper]

What do you mean by the bolded PP? How do you know how the scum team was behaving?

Mirhawk's point was that he expected the scum not to look outside the major wagons and not to shake up the gamestate; I said what I said because I don't think that two town counter wagons would radically change how scum behaved. If they were the type of players to try to get something started outside of the two major wagons, then they probably would. If they weren't, than they wouldn't.
Does this make sense or are we still misunderstanding each other?

If I had to consolidate, it'd be on VOTE: Axel for his posts reeking of effort concealing motivation.

Not the biggest fan of my wagonmates but I'm not too fond of the other wagons.

Still mostly V/LA; will get access again later tonight.

I'd be happier with Skybird than Axel; why don't you like the Cakez wagon?

[The Pied Piper]

i don't see how podo could be any townier than he is right now

[The Pied Piper]

it's very unlikely that i'm going to want a dram lynch today, but the way he's pushing it is town town town town town town town

[The Pied Piper]

he came to his senses.

[The Pied Piper]

What is GI?

[The Pied Piper]

-Ranger info

Lynching Ranger will basically explode open this game in terms of reads so even though I have this sick feeling she's going to flip town lynching her is the right play here.

What I was looking for here was for you to explain this quote, not so much look at Ranger's wagon and analyze it. I'd expect that if you were as town you'd have a specific idea wrt her wagon in mind (the only way she could get lynched as town is if there was a bunch of scum on her wagon) that would explain why you'd have a bunch of reads as a result of a Ranger lynch, but, if scum, I'd expect you felt a little bit awkward about joining the wagon of someone who you town read and so you posted this to justify jumping on it. Was what you meant by that quote simply that you thought Ranger's wagon would be very analyzable? Why?

-Spiffeh

At the beginning of the day today, you said that you were going to sheep Spiffeh's reads. The reason why that felt weird to me is because you said that if Ranger was town, you wanted Spiffeh to be your voteslave (suggesting that you thought your reads were better than Spiffeh's if Ranger was town). Could you talk about that?

The cause of that vote was because of the unvote and not commenting on anything else, which I find pretty bad considering an IC just revealed who was the leading wagon which means you should be reanalyzing and Skybird didn't.

Just because a player isn't reanalyzing in the same post that they unvoted doesn't mean that they aren't going to do any reanalyzing at all.

"Just sorting someone" is an excellent excuse to join a wagon without seriously committing.

"Getting this sorted" was a reference to the Ogre-Pistach interaction which did indeed need to be sorted.

That's straight up backtracking.

Well, yeah, but I'd find it weirder if Skybird didn't backtrack on her vote after Pistach revealed to be an IC... Wouldn't you?

[The Pied Piper]

GreyIce

Axel might be scum by a GI tell is what you're saying here?

[The Pied Piper]

I want to scum read Mirhawk but I am going back and forth on this read. Part of the reason I want to scum read him is because he is scum reading me and I agree that is a really shitty reason to scum read someone. I don't think he's right on Dave being scum. I have Dave as town. Most of the things Mirhawk has pointed out against Dave are him asking meaningless questions and not taking strong stances. But town is going to disagree on who we think are scum so again, this isn't a strong reason for scum reading him.

I see what you mean when you say that she's saying things that look good but probably isn't anything that someone actually feels and I think that this post is a great example of that.

Vote: Skybird

[The Pied Piper]

This feels awful like plot scum

If that's what you truly think then you don't know my very well after all.

[The Pied Piper]

This feels kinda like the way you attacked me in the blitz.

[The Pied Piper]

We asked you some questions a few pages back.

I am currently both Plotinus and Nacho; come talk to me. I remember in the future that hiplop says something like he didn't like Plot's clumsy wagon handling but that doesn't exactly seem like a scum tell to me (and especially not like a Plotinus-specific one); did you have a different reason for being uncomfortable with Plot? What did you think of their reads?

I am REALLY worried about you saying this, plot.

Why?

[The Pied Piper]

ib4 piper faux votes me

I'm not interested in voting you right now. I'm happy with our skybird push.

My time/energy/language/concentration/etc have been extremely limited lately but I did spend several hours rereading the first 30 posts of your ISO a few days ago before I put it aside for a better language day, but the result was that I'm happier with our skybird vote than voting you. I don't like the way you've been sniping at me for a while without spitting it out what your problem is, and parts of it do feel similar to the blitz, but I'm not sure you're scum for it yet. There were enough townish things in my reread to offset it.

But you've only played with me twice and both of those games were unusual for various reasons.

[The Pied Piper]

hi dwlee, it's nice to see you, too. Thank you for letting me know that your vote is just a pressure vote and not anything I need to take seriously. It's nice when people spell things out.

[The Pied Piper]

okay my vote is now serious lmao

that's the spirit lol

[The Pied Piper]

i don't see how podo could be any townier than he is right now

Not going that far.

You will when you're older.

[The Pied Piper]

ib4 piper faux votes me

We aren't voting you today beautiful. We're voting Skybird.

[The Pied Piper]

Why is Skybird lynchbait instead of scum?

[The Pied Piper]

And you do realize that people use all types of pushes to get their preferred lynches through and that the more emotional methods are hints to an emotional investment in the push and thus are more likely to come from town?

[The Pied Piper]

Spoiler: map of skybird's ISO

skybird 3078

Axelrod

+24 -?465 -636 ☾ -=2567

Cerberus v666/millar13

+975 +=1752 +1753 ☾ =2649

davesaz

++==128 ++==697 =1230 ☾ =2469 ++2567 ++2659

dramonic

-465 -636 ++==697 ☾ +2469 +2567

dwlee99/Sakura Hana

+991 =1196 =1230 ++1444 ☾ +2650 +3078

Friendless Seniors

+128 +465 +697 =1019 +1087 -?1091 v--==1444 --1499 =1721 --1726 -1834 +1947 --2001 ☾ --2599 --2659 =2925

itlepip/Jim/beeboy

-128 -465 =635 -==697 -=1091 =1724 ☾ =2406 +2466 +2649 -2881

Marquis/Amihan

-691 -695 -697 --711 --723 ++==1018 =1444 ☾ +2454 -2881 =2922 =2925

Mirhawk

=966 -=974 =1225 -1230 =2331 ☾ --==2659 ++2781 ++==2925

pistachi0n

=1265 ☾ =2454 -2489 -v2490 -2491

⌾

uv2534 +2565 =2568 =2913

podoboq

--711 -1230 ☾ -2468 -2491 +2567 -2881 -2919 --2922 -2925

SirCakez

v23 =974 =994 =1018 uv1021 -?1091 -1834 ☾ =2490 =2565 --2781 --2810 -v2811 -2913 -2916 -2920 -?2925 -2955

The Pied Piper

=828 ++829 -991 ☾ -2810 -2881 -2882 -3077

THE WRONG LYNCH

=697 -=829 =1230 ☾

tictac

☾ -2369 ==2406 +2468 +2491 --2599

True Ogre

=128 -?828 ++829 ++2026 ☾ +2565 =2599 =2659 =2913

---

Ranger/swordsworth

+1196 +1264 ++1372 ++1444 ++1499 ++2001 ++2331 ✝

SnarkySnowman

-1087 =1225 ✝

Spiffeh

++697 =966 ++974 =1230 ✝

Tammy

++635 ++697 -=829 ++974 ✝

I feel like she's mostly playing by scanning the thread for mentions of her own name.

Her first serious vote is in 1444 on someone she calls a scumlean not a scumread.

1499 is really sticking out to me because this was 5 days or so before the end of the day phase so this was before the deadline scramble, long before, and friendless seniors asks her why she votes for them instead of ranger, a false dichotomy, but she doesn't call it out as such. why are those the only two options? (and this is a tangent but why is seniors responding to a post in which she says she's townreading ranger and scumleaning them to ask her why she's voting them instead of ranger?)

2369 ew.

It's weird that she asks Dramonic why he thinks podoboq is scum in 2567 when she's been scumreading him herself.

Her reads reversal on tictac in 2599 is also disturbing because she'd previously been defending tictac for more or less the same reasons that she's now scumreading him.

I think Marquis and/or Nacho complained about this too, but I don't think any of the points in 2659 that she brings up about Mirhawk have anything to do with Mirhawk's alignment. She tells us she's going back and forth but she doesn't show us, or rather what she shows us doesn't look like a genuine back and forth.

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

Skybird, have you ever seen a situation in a game of mafia where a bad guy voted one of his scumfriends?

In 2913, she accuses Cakez of confbiasing but that's a townthing. Town confbias, scum misrep.

2925 I don't understand what podo agreeing with marquis has to do with mirhawk agreeing with cakez. I feel like she's probably making a deeper point than "why is it wrong for me to agree with somebody, you agreed with somebody too" but I'm not sure what it is.

Mirhawk is the only slot she has a reads progression on. She asks a lot of questions of people (mostly denoted with a -), but the answers don't seem to affect her reads at all (denoted with a ++, --, or ==).

pedit: so many pedits T.T

[The Pied Piper]

@Marquis: interesting. I looked for crumbs after the flips, but it's not really the kind of role that you crumb. There are three mentions of the word love in Tammy's ISO and zero in Spiffeh's, and none of them felt like a crumb (except the one where she crumbed her flavour to nacho.)

I think the core of my case is solid, but apparently nobody gives a shit about that.

I think he's scum too, we're just more interested in Skybird right now. I've been working on updating my ISO map of him when I have time, but it's slower going because his ISO is much longer (he posted about 120 posts since the bulletpoint format case i had in the hydra PT)

[The Pied Piper]

why are we looking for crumbs from the lovers who already flipped?

At the start of the day phase, I looked through both Tammy and Spiffeh's ISOs to see if there was anyway a scumteam who wanted to kill Tammy could have known they could shoot at Spiffeh instead to make it look like it was Spiffeh who was the threat to them with really it was Tammy. That would screw up night kill analysis, if so. If they had blatantly crumbed their roles or had weird interactions with each other, that could have tipped them off. But Tammy and Spiffeh didn't interact all that much and neither of them posted anything that looked like crumbs to me. She mentioned him about ten times in her ISO (ignoring quotes where other people mentioned him), and he mentioned her only 17 times in 239 posts.

Does that make sense?

pedit: ugh i missed that. Marquis wins at crumbhunting. my ego wants me to point out that i caught bella's fake jailkeeper crumbs in post 270 in The Odds back in December.

[The Pied Piper]

unless we're doing nka i feel like this is pointless

A few people did nightkill analysis and some of them thought that [axel, mala, tictac] might be scum because of Spiffeh's reads, but we have a reason to believe that tictac is town.

Actually, looking back through the end of Tammy's ISO it seems she shared quite a few reads with Spiffeh so they might've had a neighbourhood.

pedit: It's a good thought, Marquis. I'll keep an eye out for similar patterns.

[The Pied Piper]

Spoiler: map of skybird's ISO

skybird 3078

Axelrod

+24 -?465 -636 ☾ -=2567

Cerberus v666/millar13

+975 +=1752 +1753 ☾ =2649

davesaz

++==128 ++==697 =1230 ☾ =2469 ++2567 ++2659

dramonic

-465 -636 ++==697 ☾ +2469 +2567

dwlee99/Sakura Hana

+991 =1196 =1230 ++1444 ☾ +2650 +3078

Friendless Seniors

+128 +465 +697 =1019 +1087 -?1091 v--==1444 --1499 =1721 --1726 -1834 +1947 --2001 ☾ --2599 --2659 =2925

itlepip/Jim/beeboy

-128 -465 =635 -==697 -=1091 =1724 ☾ =2406 +2466 +2649 -2881

Marquis/Amihan

-691 -695 -697 --711 --723 ++==1018 =1444 ☾ +2454 -2881 =2922 =2925

Mirhawk

=966 -=974 =1225 -1230 =2331 ☾ --==2659 ++2781 ++==2925

pistachi0n

=1265 ☾ =2454 -2489 -v2490 -2491

⌾

uv2534 +2565 =2568 =2913

podoboq

--711 -1230 ☾ -2468 -2491 +2567 -2881 -2919 --2922 -2925

SirCakez

v23 =974 =994 =1018 uv1021 -?1091 -1834 ☾ =2490 =2565 --2781 --2810 -v2811 -2913 -2916 -2920 -?2925 -2955

The Pied Piper

=828 ++829 -991 ☾ -2810 -2881 -2882 -3077

THE WRONG LYNCH

=697 -=829 =1230 ☾

tictac

☾ -2369 ==2406 +2468 +2491 --2599

True Ogre

=128 -?828 ++829 ++2026 ☾ +2565 =2599 =2659 =2913

---

Ranger/swordsworth

+1196 +1264 ++1372 ++1444 ++1499 ++2001 ++2331 ✝

SnarkySnowman

-1087 =1225 ✝

Spiffeh

++697 =966 ++974 =1230 ✝

Tammy

++635 ++697 -=829 ++974 ✝

Did you actually go through Skybirds entire ISO and note every time she mentioned another player in this game? By hand?

Or is there some kind of program that does that for you?

By hand. It's my thing. It's kinda relaxing. I do it in almost every game I've played, and sometimes in games i'm not playing but just spectating. It helps me look at how somebody's affecting the game state and how they're approaching the game. It takes less time than you'd think, though still quite a bit of time, but it also slows down my reading a lot and makes it so that I can't skim but have to really think about everything the person is saying.

I don't have maps of everybody yet, but by late game I will. It gets more useful once there are scum flips, but I can get some things out of it even like this.

[The Pied Piper]

+ deadline scrambles are annoying especially when the day phase ends at 3am for some of us.

[The Pied Piper]

By hand. It's my thing. It's kinda relaxing. I do it in almost every game I've played, and sometimes in games i'm not playing but just spectating. It helps me look at how somebody's affecting the game state and how they're approaching the game. It takes less time than you'd think, though still quite a bit of time, but it also slows down my reading a lot and makes it so that I can't skim but have to really think about everything the person is saying.

I don't have maps of everybody yet, but by late game I will. It gets more useful once there are scum flips, but I can get some things out of it even like this.

I wanted to say "there's no way in hell scum actually takes the time and effort to compile a post like that" but are you admitting you do it as scum too

I do it as both alignments and it helps me as both alignments, though I get different things out of it. Effort is not alignment indicative for me.

[The Pied Piper]

@cakes/itle/podoboq/tictac/whoeverelse: argh the colours thing inside other people's quotes is contagious. Today I am going to teach you guys how to quotestripe. It's really easy you type [/quote] when you get to the part where you want to type your own words and then you can still use colours if you want but now it's easier to follow along with, and then when you want to resume their quote you type [quote] again.

pedit @mala: in the newbie that equinox modded? that was a fun game. I think derailing that wagon off of almost-confirmed-scum in mylo was the most alignment indicative thing i've ever done, though.

[The Pied Piper]

Not gonna catch up today, so I'm doing this and then going to bed. Promised a list, but since you made a case you get this instead:P

I feel like she's mostly playing by scanning the thread for mentions of her own name.

Paying attention to ones own name is a human-tell not a scumtell

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Her first serious vote is in 1444 on someone she calls a scumlean not a scumread.

Yeah? How is being honest about the strength of her read a scumtell?
I know being all absolute surety so people are more likely to sheep is the mafiascum-meta, but that's not the only way to play. I've even read newbie-guides that advocate honesty instead. I find the refusal to conform refreshing.

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1499 is really sticking out to me because this was 5 days or so before the end of the day phase so this was before the deadline scramble, long before, and friendless seniors asks her why she votes for them instead of ranger, a false dichotomy, but she doesn't call it out as such. why are those the only two options? (and this is a tangent but why is seniors responding to a post in which she says she's townreading ranger and scumleaning them to ask her why she's voting them instead of ranger?)

That's burden of proficiency. Not everyone sees what you see.

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aww shucks tell? Seen it more from town than from scum.
Or do you mean intending to vote me while not having paid attention to me?
Aren't you townreading podos sheeping? At least Sky says she'll do her own research before she votes. Also, she didn't. In 2491 she has done the reading and decided not to.

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It's weird that she asks Dramonic why he thinks podoboq is scum in 2567 when she's been scumreading him herself.

It's weird that she wants a better read on Dram? I don't think so.

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Her reads reversal on tictac in 2599 is also disturbing because she'd previously been defending tictac for more or less the same reasons that she's now scumreading him.

I'm pretty sure she wasn't townreading inactivity, and that is what she scumreads in that post.
It's a thing newbs scumread.

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I think Marquis and/or Nacho complained about this too, but I don't think any of the points in 2659 that she brings up about Mirhawk have anything to do with Mirhawk's alignment. She tells us she's going back and forth but she doesn't show us, or rather what she shows us doesn't look like a genuine back and forth.

That's two points I think
1. Thinking non AI things are AI. This is a newbtell.
2. back and forth. Yeah, she isn't going back and forth in that post, obviously, cause going back and forth is a thing that happens in time, while a post is a static thing.
What she is doing is explaining her thoughts on the matter. Again, not forcing a read in one direction is a good thing, just not one site-meta agrees with.

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After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

Skybird, have you ever seen a situation in a game of mafia where a bad guy voted one of his scumfriends?

Townreading people for being convincing is def a thing newbs do. Heck I don't even know if it's a bad tell in all cases.

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In 2913, she accuses Cakez of confbiasing but that's a townthing. Town confbias, scum misrep.

Burden of proficiency again. Terminology.

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2925 I don't understand what podo agreeing with marquis has to do with mirhawk agreeing with cakez. I feel like she's probably making a deeper point than "why is it wrong for me to agree with somebody, you agreed with somebody too" but I'm not sure what it is.

Not a scumpoint

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Mirhawk is the only slot she has a reads progression on. She asks a lot of questions of people (mostly denoted with a -), but the answers don't seem to affect her reads at all (denoted with a ++, --, or ==).

She addressed this in 2925. I thought it was a good defense.

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Also, I do the colors, cause I think it's easier to read. It's also really easy to do. Ya should try it.

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[The Pied Piper]

Seniors, when are you going to answer the questions we asked you earlier, we were talking and then you disappeared even though you were posting elsewhere for about an hour but I forgave you because it was late in your timezone but here you are again. If you don't want to engage me, that's fine, but I'm going to ignore you if you're just gonna tunnel.

pedit: good, podoboq

[The Pied Piper]

It's weird that she asks Dramonic why he thinks podoboq is scum in 2567 when she's been scumreading him herself.

It's weird that she wants a better read on Dram? I don't think so.

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I disagree with this. I townread Cakez, but still wanted him to justify his instant push of tictac with a case, even though I also had a slight scumread on tictac.

Also, you're right. The gradient is annoying. It's pretty, but it makes quoting you SO hard.

If you highlight some text with your mouse and press quote, it will quote only that part of the text (and get rid of the formatting, but that's fine.)

I probably won't be using the gradient very much, though.

[The Pied Piper]

Who am I pushing for forgetting something?

[The Pied Piper]

I am currently both Plotinus and Nacho; come talk to me. I remember in the future that hiplop says something like he didn't like Plot's clumsy wagon handling but that doesn't exactly seem like a scum tell to me (and especially not like a Plotinus-specific one); did you have a different reason for being uncomfortable with Plot? What did you think of their reads?

It is. they are playing very akin to butterfly mafia. And I expect yall to be going after someone...better than skybird? who is like consistently mislynched in games? It seems very planned, which is the defining quality of plotscum. Someone else said this is nachscum sooo.... their ways of interacting with me just seem way off!

other one is for ep, idk

What do you think of Marquis case on Skybird? Skybird is capable of doing more than she's doing. I don't think there's anything unusual about being underwhelmed by someone that you know is capable of doing more than this. I haven't played with her before, but Nacho played with her in a couple games (Smite, Twilight Zone). Did you look at the game that Marquis linked? What did you think of it?


Butterfly was an unusual game for me. It took me several months to recover from it and I very nearly siteflaked because of some things that happened in it. I was V/LA for most of the game because of IRL stuff and I was distracted. It's not a very good game to meta me based on because I was barely there, unless "barely here and distrated by IRL stuff" is part of your case?

The town game that I played with you back in January/February was also unusual it that it's been a couple months and I am still recovering from what happened in it. I was having trouble with blitz deadlines and with health problems and the game was moving too fast for me to play the way I normally do. As such, you are seeing my normal town playstyle for the first time.

Butterfly was easily my second worst scumgame and the blitz was one of my worst towngames. It feels weird for you to be judging me based on those games that I was barely present for and then in 3264 calling me spectacular. It doesn't make sense to me. I wasn't spectacular in either of those games.

I also feel like I'm in a damned if I do damned if I don't situation with you because on the one hand you're calling us clumsy and saying we're acting like newbies and making dumb mistakes but on the other hand you're accusing of me being super calculating and clever and planning things out to an insane degree. You can't have it both ways. If I'm playing a superplanny game then you're not going to catch me on level 0 stuff and if I'm so new at this that if I get a scum role pm then I just have no idea how to pretend scumhunt, then how would I be able to do calculating and advanced moves?


Also, and self meta etc, but I don't tend to go after low hanging fruit as scum. You would know this if you were paying attention in the blitz because the topic came up there when I was going after KTthecreeper, who was actually scum in that game. In Hitchcock, I replaced into an unwinnable situation and immediately started trying to lynch Nacho. In Handwriting, I spent two weeks in 3p trying to get Nacho to lynch the most obvtown newbie you'd ever seen (and Nacho is good at reading newbies), before the newbie gave up and voted Nacho. In Clowntardis, I lynched people that I thought were playing the townest town games I'd ever seen. In History, I tried to lynch Metal Sonic the mason for a while before he got banned; after he was banned we were drowning in mislynches and there were no hard targets to go after.

As scum, my goal is to get rid of as many threats as possible, as quickly as possible, and I use both my nightkill and the daily lynch to accomplish that. As scum, a player who is drifting along the way Skybird is? Not a threat. As town, a scumplayer who is coasting along like Skybird is? A threat, and I'm lynching this one. I have other scumreads that I will lynch after I'm through with this one. I'm worried about the thread dynamics and the way people are resisting this wagon but every game there is one town aligned player who insists on tying themselves to the scumteam via their bad reads (itlepip was that person in The Odds), and this game I think it might be you. We'll see if I still think that when the dust settles.

pedit: Skybird forgetting things has very little to do with my case on her. Reducing our case to that is ridiculous. I'm having trouble taking you seriously.

Beetlejuice? Seriously? It's morning, I just woke up, I checked my games, I haven't even had coffee yet. (btw if anyone wants to replace into a newbie game, please PM Plotinus; I need 3 people )

Cerb, I do want to interact with you and talk to you about stuff I just haven't made the time for it. I was surprised to see you had 133 posts when I looked at the activity overview yesterday. It feels like you have less than that. You're in the "I could be interested in seeing how a wagon on them would progress and I might join one if one were started" section of my readslist at the moment but you just haven't been a priority. I'm sorry, though, you were one of the people I was looking forward to playing with too and then IRL happened but I'm starting to feel like myself again.

pedit: thank you itlepip.

[The Pied Piper]

Mirhawk is in the "I would not try to derail their wagon if they were being lynched¹" section of my readslist, and I think Nacho thought some of their posts seemed town a while back. I need to make coffee and breakfast and then I'll look through your Mirhawk case in more detail.

pedit @Cerb:

I understood 3268 to be a response to 3265, but it's possible I misunderstood:

Who am I pushing for forgetting something?

Skybird.

I had thought this was your only ongoing game that you're alive in but I remember now that you're in another two. I feel you; I'm alive in two as well and it seems my limit is closer to one.


[1] I think I will keep this naming scheme in the future, too. I have thought up all sorts of clever names for tiers, some of which don't even have people in them.

[The Pied Piper]

*another game, too

gah.

[The Pied Piper]

It's possible there was more than one conversation going on at the time, yeah, and i just got confused.

I know we were pushing Mirhawk some early day 1, around the time of the miller thing. I don't think we've pushed them since then. We've probably interacted with them and asked them stuff but they haven't been our primary focus for a while now. I feel like the miller point has been talked to death by now, but I think there was more (I skimmed when I woke up and I didn't take all that much in but I am armed with coffee and a banana now!)

(Is that a banana in your pocket or are you just happy to see me? Actually, it's a banana!)

I always want to sync up my games so that I'm never deadline scrambling in more than one at a time but instead what happens is I'll be in 4 games and they all go into night phase at once and suddenly there's nothing to do. I think my limit is actually two, it's just that a large counts as 2-3 games all by itself.

[The Pied Piper]

Okay, itlepip I think I've found your mirhawk case but if I'm missing any parts of it let me know.

24- Kinda awkward.

-- oh this post isn't a case against Mirhawk, because this is a Skybird post in which she admires Axel's song lyrics thing. I don't really care about this post or think it's alignment indicative for her. What did you find awkward about it? Do you think awkward is a towntell for her or a scumtell or something else?

128- good start but questions at end are bad.
Lot of filler questions.
697- Dram read is weird. Beeboy read could be town actually though.

I agree.

711- Super bad and scummy, association based on a 1 post defense is kinda insane

She could be tying one of them to the other; if one of them is scum the other is probably town. I don't mind people who scumhunt with associatives even before flips because trying to call the scumteam without help is fun but this doesn't feel like that. She doesn't go anywhere with it.[/quote]

829- solid

I agree with everything in that post: True Ogre and I are town, Tammy and Mala were being Tammy and Mala and probably would've had that conversation regardless. But why did she get a townread on True Ogre and my slot out of our discussion when she didn't out of Tammy vs Mala? What was the difference between those two conversations? Why wasn't it noise when it was Ogre and Me?

1196- awkward again, if either flip scum the other is going to be under scrutiny

When you said awkward earlier about her interaction with Axel, did you mean it the way you mean it here, that you're seeing a connection between the two of them?

Podo, Ranger and Ogre posts are pretty towny.
Cakez revote is weird.
Semantics defense is shit but I actually kind of like Sky on reread.

Sorry guys.

VOTE: Mirhawk

Pretty sure this one is actually scum though.

What I don't understand is that you went through Skybird's ISO and saw a lot of things that we saw and brought up some new points of your own, and you think she could be scum together with a few other people, and the conclusion you draw on her is that you kind of like her in reread. Do you know what you like about her? It feels like we're seeing some of the same things and having the same reactions to the same posts but we're reaching a different conclusion.

I feel like this is the coasting scum slot. I really should have been pushing this earlier but given where the game is at right now I can't ever see Mirhawk being town right now unless I am super wrong this game.

Ok.

@Cerb the jist of it is that his later day pushes by deadline doesn't feel like town especially given that he just abandons his Dav push. His early day is all just 'dav is scum dav is scum dav is scum' he votes pistach, and then goes back to dav after the whole Amiham slip thing. Then deadline hits and in short succession he calls ranger, Cakez, Skybird, all scum based on which one is the most popular at the time and never even mentions Dav again in any sort of negative light for the rest of the game. I don't understand why a town player would ever think that he has a clear caught scum, and then give it up not only due to deadline panic, but then the next day he completely forgets that this player was ever considered scummy by him. It is something I have done as scum by accident, but I can't ever imagine as town just giving up on a scum push that I was death tunneling because meh. Like he never actually says that Cakez is worse than dav or anything like that, he just seems to forget that Dav is even in the game after his last case against him.

Full disclosure I was hoping for worse answer from him regarding dav but the answers he gave don't invalidate my case at all imo. Its a bit complicated and I'm on a phone so the full thing will appear later tonight.

I couldn't find the full thing, link me if I missed it.

I'd have to reread the end of the day one myself (so many things on my todo list T.T).

Spoiler: mirhawk's posts about davesaz from page 2 of his ISO

OMFG Dave

Has anyone OTHER then me looked at his iso and noted how he hasn't done ANYTHING useful today.

Mirhawk, Dav read ASAP.

I have a flip flop read on him.
Overall I'd say it's a light scumread, but I'm not all that convinced in the accuracy of it.
I still stand by the bit I originally scumread him for as I usually view indirect pushing of wagons as an explicitly scummy activity. But apparently this sort of attitude of asking leading questions and not pushing hard is kinda Dave's thing.
He's not really scumhunting, and he's not really pushing the reads he has, but again that's apparently not unusual either.
He has the occasional post that looks a little bad, but they feel townish mostly.
People keep saying that the things I was scumreading him for aren't indicative for him so I don't know.

fuck me I just realized that FS and mir are confirmed the same alignment. Mir still needs to answer the question but yeah...

yeah just realized that the fruit vendor isn't automatically weak.

Man, I hadn't thought of weak fruit vendors as even being a thing.
That being said, if you want a reason to tie the two of us together I would start with the fact I've spent the entire game townreading him for reasons that amount to "gut".

When precisely, I'm not sure.

There was never a moment when I decided he was no longer scummy. It was more like I pursued other scumreads for so long that I eventually stopped really thinking about him as one.

Also, I've seen manipulative shit from lots of town players all the friggin time. Marquis fakeclaimed miller yesterday for lol's and reactions.

Also If that's what Pistachion's role name is then I have literally no idea what went down with Ogre's night action.

I think that in a 21 player game, putting something on hold to focus on another thing isn't terrible, and that it can happen that you end up focusing on the other thing for long enough that you stop really caring about the original thing. For example a month ago I cared about Seniors vote on SnarkySnowman because I agreed that they should know that Snarky is Just Like That^TM but I don't care about it anymore, because even though I still agree with that point, it was talked to death and there's nothing new to say about it and a lot of things have happened since then.

I have a scumread on Cakez that is on hold because I'm focusing on Skybird right now. I was scumreading Mirhawk around the time of the miller thing but that's another thing that was talked to death and he's done a lot since then. Seniors had asked me to sort them so I started working on that but I had so much else on my plate when I wasn't feeling well and I didn't have the energy to get a more solid grip on a nulltownlean when I was in the middle of something else. You're asking about Mirhawk and I'd have to make an ISO map to give an answer I'd be happy with. The short answer is that he just isn't bothering me enough right now to derail my attention from the stuff already on my todo list.

I only have 4 names at-or-below my "i would not derail their wagon" tier, which is a situation that I'm unsatisfied with right now. The tier above that one is labelled "idek mafia's hard" and I'm unhappy that dwlee replaced into the slot that was in that tier because he's not the easiest kid to read. Mirhawk's in the bottom 4 but I can't lynch 4 people today and we're coming up on a deadline again.

My playstyle takes forever but I need to do my thing if I want to be confident in something and realistically speaking I'm not going to get through my todo list before the deadline hits, but I will add Mirhawk to the list because I think it's pretty cool how you're approaching this game with your circle thing and I respect you but I need to get there myself, if that makes sense, and I don't think I'm going to have time to get there myself today. I would vote them to prevent a no lynch, though I'm unlikely to be awake near the deadline.

pedit: we have each posted cases on skybird. could go back to cakez. i have had so many emotions this game, i'm just trying to keep them out of the game thread because they were over the top. people always call my emotions fake when i have them and that tends to hurt worse than whatever i was originally upset about so i've been trying to walk away from the thread when that happens and i've had to do that a few times already this game. i've also been trying not take my IRL stuff out on the game and I know that a lot of the moodswings i've been having are caused by IRL things. There have been a bunch of days that I didn't post anything because the only thing I was capable of doing was melting down and I think it's healthier for the gamestate if I don't.

[The Pied Piper]

Real life is null, but it was kind of eclipsing my ability to have emotions about anything else. I want to give you huge hugs too, especially for your posts in that one zulfy thread when you were just making so much sense and everyone else was being dumb. maybe i'll pm you about it after the game.

129 was me and I posted that readslist in that format partially as a way to say hi to goodmorning because I'd used that readslist format in The Odds when we hydraed together, because of her tendency to be reticent about her reads early on in the games she ICs to prevent the newbies from sheeping her too early; she gets better reads if she can see what they come up with on their own and also how they attack her for withholding her reads before she dives in. We were in the 5% slot in the Odds which meant we only had a 5.5% chance of being scum and we were treated like a pseudo innocent child in that game (and were actually town), so it was playing with the dual meaning of IC as well in that game. In this game it was just a throwback to that and a way of saying "hi, I'm me."

But the other reason I posted my reads list in that format was because I wanted to see if anybody would follow up on it or try to guess who was in what category; I'd got some things out of it in the Odds, a few people did try to guess. But not being an innocent child in this game means that people are treating me differently than they were treating me in that game for obvious reasons.

A lot of my posts have little easter eggs like this that are references to previous games because it amuses me.

I left a translation in my hydra PT:

Ok. I have:

• 3 scumleans <--
  axelrod, friendless seniors, swordsworth
  
  
• 3-5 townleans <--
  mirhawk
  , true ogre,
  the wrong lynch
  ,
  sakura hana
  , sircakez, davesaz (roughly in that order, but true ogre isn't a public townread and sircakez/davesaz are too weak to mention, so i've bolded the 3 that i'd admit to in public.)
  
• 1 current wagon that i'm okay with <--
  Friendless seniors
  
  
• 1 current wagon that i don't understand <--
  SirCakez
  
  
• 2-3 people that I'm thinking about but I want to see more from them (this is distinct from the large group of people who haven't posted enough yet or at all) <--
  beeboy, davesaz, skybird
  
  
• ~5 people that I think that if they are town they would be easy mislynches for scum. There is a little overlap here with my scumleans) <--
  snarkysnowman, spiffeh, swordsworth, axelrod, davesaz
  
  
• 2-3 people that I think will be hard for me to read based on their playstyle so far this game or previous experience with their playstyle. I expect this number to grow once more people are posting. <--
  beeboy, spiffeh, davesaz
  
  
• A bunch of people that I'm excited to be playing with. <3 <--
  you, hippyloppy, errant, cakez, tammy, tictac, mala, goodmorning, pistachi0n
  . There is no one I dislike on this playlist but these are the people that i know well enough to be excited about them.
  
• 1 awesome hydra partner <--
  nacho
  !

The reason you weren't a public townread at that time was because it was meta based and I didn't yet want to admit that I knew who you were and I wanted to see more from you to firm up the read. cakez and davesaz were very very weak townleans at the time that I felt like if I admitted to them in public people would think they were stronger reads than they were and I was remembering being deathtunnelled for 90 pages because PhantomCobalt made me laugh on page 2 and I granted him a weaktownlean and I just didn't want to deal with that again.

The easy mislynches category was primarily meta based.

Wait - was that post you Plotinus? I seem to remember fucking one of them up. It seems VERY nacho.

Yeah, that was me. What felt most me about it was the "or something else?" tag that I tend to put on the end of questions because I can get trapped in false dichotomies easily when i'm not languaging well and I want to take care not to do it to someone else.

But the reason I at the time felt that you should know who it was, was because I mentioned my Persivul push in ClownTardis, but looking back I just said "last game" and for all you knew it could've been some other game with Persivul and Mala. Sometimes things seem clearer in my head. At the start of ClownTardis, on page 1, I was pushing Persivul as scum because he

wasn't

doing something that he'd down twice as scum early on in games I'd been in with him. I was saying "you're not doing the thing that you do when you're scum. does that mean you're scum?" which was nonsense, but it was the kind of nonsense you can get a game started with, and I was scum who needed to look like I was doing something.

I was saying that beeboy's push on seniors for not buddying them felt as stupid as my push on persivul. I abandoned the persivul push pretty quickly and I thought it was weird that beeboy kept it up for 40 pages (we're still on page 6 at the time of this post so I don't know if I was bothered by the duration of it yet.)

I used the word "genuine" because nacho says it a lot, about 6 times a month on average, (not counting hydra games).

Roughly when does Seniors become a townread of yours, Piper?
I'm up to post 709 and I know it doesn't happen before Day 2.

A few days ago when I was starting to go through their ISO because they asked me to finally sort them and I only got 30 posts in because I wasn't a good language day, but most of what I wrote about it in the hydra pt was townleany type words so that helped me figure out that it was a townlean. There was a period during day 1 when i was feeling kind of directionless and Nacho had pointed out some things of seniors that seemed townish but he wasn't around very much at the time. neither of us liked Ranger's predecessor and we had initial concerns about Ranger but I really liked her response to my concerns.

I was trying to give Seniors space because I wanted to see what they'd do with that space if people would stop tunnelling them for a while, but I was underwhelmed with the results of that at the time and towards the end of day 1 I was trusting Ranger's read on them.

I do need to finish sorting them I just have too many things on my todo list.

[The Pied Piper]

Podoboq just brings out my inner IC. I read his posts and all I can think of is that bbmolla quote from WDPT that I want to quote about somebody everygame and this game it's podoboq:

Just seems like new town. He's just a boy. Still has that "Oh we're playing mafia! How exciting!" spark to him. He hasn't hit the "fuck im just gonna post like once a day saying fuck you cause i hate everyone" stage yet.

Reaching out to newbs who are lost in their first large is something I feel moved to do because I remember being a lost newb in my first large. I think it's really neat what newer players bring to the game because a lot of the time they are looking outside the box and they're not accustomed to site meta so they can look at things with fresh eyes and see things in a new way. In my first large, I actually caught like 3-4 scum, completely by accident, in my very first readslist, based on skimming some ISOs and staring at a list of claims that i didn't understand, with reasoning like "it says on the wiki that you shouldn't claim vengeful if you're town" which isn't compelling and nobody was going to follow me, but the way scum reacted to being scumread for the wrong reasons should've tipped off the more experienced players.

We weren't townleaning him yet I don't think (we are now; he's in my "if someone claimed a guilty on him i would assume there was a bus driver in the setup" tier). Watching him interact with the others and watching others react to him has affected my reads.

-- about alt stuff --
I was interested in you because I knew who you were. I was metadiving people while the game was still in signups because I had 0 ongoing games at the time and I was really really really excited to be hydraing with nacho and I looked through your previous games and saw that you had altslipped previously and you are somebody that I know, somebody that I have fooled as scum twice, someone who was rightfully paranoid of me in the blitz, someone who I expected to be treating me like a box of live snakes, but here you were on an alt, with no reason to know that I knew who you were, and if you were scum why bother faking all that paranoia when you don't know how it would come across me without the context of who your main is, so yeah I was interested in you and how you would interact with me if you didn't know that I knew who you were.

Marquis was dead in WDPT by the time I replaced in and he was in the blitz for a while before he replaced out but we haven't interacted very much at all, I haven't tricked him before so I didn't expect him to be wary of me. When he alt slipped I wasn't sure if I believed the explanation or not that he was "Marquis' friend" but his newbie impression was really spot on so I was sort of inclined to believe it. You'll notice I was starting to get paranoid of him towards the end of day 1 after it was revealed (it's mixed in with my extended conversation with Ranger) but Nacho has a lot more experience with Marquis than I do and now that Nacho's caught up on the game, I'm trusting Nacho's townread there.

I think also that's where my confidence in the Skybird push is coming from: I'm hydraing with a wizard and also sheeping Marquis and lending my voice to theirs.
----

I'll let Nacho reply to the parts that were about him I guess, but I'd invite you to read Wedding Invitational or Another Eclipse, Shaman Mafia (which I wouldn't consider one of his trolly games; but he was adopting a different writing style in that game as well and some people scumread him for it), maybe Gameboy Advance too though he was hydraed with Sonic in that one which accounts for some of it, also Tarot where he was hydraed with Syryana but they're hard to tell apart. (I know that's quite a few games, and his ISO is pretty huge in some of them; this isn't a homework assignment and I'm not going to ask if you read them later, but it's worth skimming some of them. I made learning to read Nacho a project back in October, and it's not easy; it took me a while to understand why he was town in Oldie Mafia, but learning that he was town in Alfred Hitchcock helped. There's one game that I'm not sure why he was scum in it, there was the absence of some towntells but he didn't do the thing that he does when he's scum. Someday I'll be town against him and can put my tells to work; I've been scum against him six times now.)

764 was Nacho's first major post of the game where he was trying to get his head in the game and get caught up and was responding to things that were catching his eye because he knew I was going to be backseat driving for a while. He'd made some appearances before then but it was mostly me.

pedit: I haven't read Fire Emblem yet. I'll put it on my todo list. i'm sorry about clowntardis. Mastina had a tell on me and I was playing around with her tell. Who do you think that we should be pushing that we're not? Is there anyone we're ignoring that we shouldn't be?