New York 195: Adventure Mafia - Game over!

[projectmatt]

Sup.

Titus and Icher are town.

I'm going to ignore the arguments that have already taken place and vote for the actual mafia.

Vote: TehBrawlGuy

[projectmatt]

The whole statistics discussion is stupid and doesn't read natural. Feels like a poor attempt at distancing to me, as does Ircher's "go vote shotty". VOTE: Ircher

Copper case has no real merit imo. Copper had no reason to unvote/vote anyone else, but also no reason to actually believe Ircher was more likely to be scum than anyone else at the time.

Primarily because in this post, he is setting himself up to vote for both Shotty/Ircher as opposed to taking one side. It looks like he's trying really hard to agree with both players at the same time.

Also, I want to see him under pressure.

[projectmatt]

I could go there but my read there would be conditioned on Copper scum most likely.?

Is there anything else that points to Copper being scum to you other than the inconsistency you pointed out near the beginning? I don't exactly townread Copper, but I don't buy your reasoning as a solid reason to vote for him.

[projectmatt]

Fair enough. I'm keeping my eye on Copper but I'm not really inclined to cast my vote on him yet.

[projectmatt]

Also townvibes from ETL, lessening townvibes from titus.

Would you share what is giving you lessening townvibes from Titus? I'm asking because something in particular made me start to scumread him slightly, and I'm curious if we have the same mindset here.

I'm currently rejecting the Ircher wagon primarily because I actually read his desperation as town. The over-defensive, "give me one good reason why I'm mafia!" reminds me fondly of the way that I/a lot of new players tend to play when they first joined the site. It seems like he's suffering from a fair amount of over-confidence, but that confidence actually inclines me to think that he's town.

The Copper wagon is also very weak.

EspeciallytheLies became a pretty strong town-read during the last few pages.

Also, TehBrawlGuy, in regards to #171, your defense doesn't seem strong because it doesn't matter whether or not they were both viable wagons. My point was that they were both arguing, and you basically said "yeah, both of them seem pretty bad". It seemed like you didn't want to take a side so that you could potentially vote either one if either became viable.

I'm going to wait to cast my vote, as I don't feel very comfortable with any of the wagons.

[projectmatt]

I'm going to wait to cast my vote, as I don't feel very comfortable with any of the wagons.

i didn't want you to be scum matt. but you are.

That's too bad =( What was your issue?

I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed. Day 1 is about lynching the scummiest player regardless though. Can you tell me why Ircher is so obvtown?

Egg, I really like the amount of analysis/questioning you do, but I'm struggling to actually see if you've gotten any reads/results from your questioning. In terms of your reads, where is your head at right now?

@
@Project, you like none of the wagons really?

Not really, no. I mean, at the time of my post, my vote was still on TehBrawlGuy, but none of the other wagons actually seemed worth joining. Would you care to tell me what wagon you think

is

worth joining?

Interesting.

Still though, zakk is town this time

Why?

Killthestory

- funny, but annoying. no idea on alignment. wouldn't mind lynching in the first 2-3 days or so if he keeps being like he's being.

This might be a personal pet peeve of mine, but I really hate this.

[projectmatt]

Ah, I almost forgot.

Unvote

Vote: cytheflyguy

[projectmatt]

@Egg, thank you. Would you please tell me why you have a light-scumread on Lowell, and a light townread on Titus?

[projectmatt]

fuckin A man... i just read Seth's ISO and it just sounds like newbiespeak but it really also sounds like newbiescumslippingspeak too.

all of you are scum i swear to god

Would you care to point me to a few specific posts? I get a strong newbie town vibe from him, but not any scum vibe.

I'm going to figure out my reads tomorrow, because I've let myself become incredibly disorganized and unsure of my own thoughts.

Unvote

[projectmatt]

The further this game goes on, the more I become suspicious of Killthestory/of the belief that he very well might be scum. I initially kind of read his aloofness as coming from a town place, but it looks like he's using it to coast. However, I'm only not super inclined to vote him primarily because him flipping would give us very little information, since his actual stated reads/interactions are generally pretty small.

I'm also still not a fan of the Ircher wagon. I mean, yes, the strange numbered system he has is pretty weak, but I'm pretty positive that most scum would not be so bold as to consistently post a bunch of "scored" reads that only he can understand, and insist that it's very important. I think that a lot of you are confusing "weird and unexperienced play" to somehow be likely to be scum play. This is really silly, and I've seen no actual reason to suspect anything of Ircher. Adding on to that, I'm cynical about #491, because it seems like an easy way for Persivul to weasel into the bandwagon while not stating any reads of actual substance.

I'm becoming more sure that Zakk is town with practically almost every post. Same with EspeciallyTheLies. That said though, I think EspeciallyTheLie's accusation of Titus teaming Ircher is kind of weak.


I initially put a lot of pressure on TehBrawlGuy, but I'm actually going to list him as a mild town read now, because he's held himself pretty well/he's come off as far more town than he did at the beginning of the game.

I also don't feel as strongly about Cytheflyguy being scum, because I'm now reading a lot of his posts as coming from confused town.

This is by far the best vote I can conceive of at the moment, though.

Vote: SethYazuka

I might do a full reads list later if I feel motivated.

[projectmatt]

Correction because I spelled his name wrong:

Vote: SethYazura

[projectmatt]

It doesn't work that way. You have to give to get.

[projectmatt]

I think you are scum with Killthestory because you feel the need to justify why you aren't voting him, discuss.

Sorry you feel that way. I have a question for you: what do you make of KilltheStory's interaction with EspeciallytheLies in the last few pages? I'm actually reading his justification for why he plays the way he does/general tone as a towntell. Why is he scum to you?

It's null because scum can also be weird.
This (your post) is a scumtell if Ircher is town and it makes it seem like he is, townreading someone for wifom because you know they're town. Same as what Seth just did

The thing about Persivul is fucking terrible and you are scum.

Eh. I've literally townread Ircher from the very first post that I made in this game. It's not like that read is a secret. Him doing the weird points thing only adds to my townread when taken into consideration with the rest of his posting. Being weird itself is null, but taken with the context of the game, it's a townread IMO.

Yes, because they're both town aren't they.

Zakk and EspeciallytheLies? I'm inclined to think so!

And okay, Seth, I'll try to make a list of reads later tonight.

[projectmatt]

Also dislike the vote on Seth in 640. Read that post again. Tons of words indicating why some players aren’t scum. Not a single word related to why Seth is scum. In fact that vote is the first time Seth’s name has appeared in Project’s ISO.

Admittedly, this is partially my fault for keeping a lot of notes to myself in my head but not outlining them very well on paper. I've been considering Seth - I actually initially read him as newbie town. However, I felt prompted to give him another look, as you can see in 567. After reading through again, I actually considered him to be more likely to be scum. I'll try to expand on that and my other reads in a compiled "big wall of text post" with all my thoughts and reads together.

[projectmatt]

Massive post coming tomorrow. I promise!

[projectmatt]

By "content tomorrow", I actually meant "day after tomorrow" because I had a surprise job interview I had to prepare for. I will be back in the loop soon!

[projectmatt]

Okay. Here's some stuff.

I still think

Ircher

is town - and I've expanded on the reason why many, many times so I'm not going to explain it again.

I initially voted

SethYazura

because some of his posts - in particular, post #182 that had phrases like "my fellow town" and post #378 came off as very forced/awkward, and the way that he speaks is absurdly ...not something that comes off as natural. However, my scumread on him has also weakened slightly. This is because I recently realized that he's also new to the game - and while being new does not excuse scummy play, it does kind of excuse some of his stuff coming off as forced/weird. I know that I was the same way when I first started playing, so I'm not sure if I can really, honestly say that I scumread Seth for valid reasoning. Because of that, I'm going to

UNVOTE

him.

My inital scumread on

TehBrawlGuy

has turned into a town read, especially in light of posts like #1178. He had an awkward opening to this game that I called him out on, but it seems like he's found his voice - and his analysis, aggression, and general demeanor come off as town to me. He also handled the pressure on him tremendously well.

I think

Shotty

may be town. At first, I read his play as nonsensical and silly - but as this game goes on further, I'm understanding the kind of playstyle that he's going for. In particular, it seems like his play is based heavily on this idea of putting a lot of pressure on certain people, and basically dialoguing with people "in the moment" to get reads. That playstyle itself isn't inherently town - I really dislike his tunnel on Ircher. However, his actions do make sense coming from a town perspective. In particular, his recent unvote on Ircher to a frustrated revote almost immediately after came off as sincere to me, and generally more spontaneous than most scum like to try.

I dislike the

Copper

wagon, primarily because the reasoning behind it that I can see is very, very silly. I don't think that Copper has particularly scumtold, and a lot of his questioning/attempts at scumhunting come off as sincere. I can list specific examples if needed, but I'm too lazy to get them without prompting.

I hate

Nadhia's

tunnel on Ircher. Like, it sucks. It reeks of trying to come off as way too confident when the substance behind the read is really small. In particular, I dislike her trying to paint Ircher's point system as somehow scummy. At the very worst, that's a completely null tell. On the other hand though, we actually sort of hiveminded on our read on Anen, and I actually think her read is solid even though I really wish she would give more logic for it. I also like her pretty solid questioning of Titus. I think maybe my issue with Nadhia is that our playstyles conflict - so I'm not really willing to say that she's scum. In light of the push on Anen that seems to be coming from a town place, she's far more likely to be town.

When it comes to

Aneninen

, I initially thought his catch-up posts were pretty great, and called out a lot of my own similar reads. However, since he's caught up, it feels like he's kind of been flailing/coasting, and his reads are coming off as weaker and weaker as the day progresses.

For example, his post #569 comes off as weirdly, oddly forced after having sounded completely natural before it. His substance-less attack on Shotty by basically saying "no, you!", his "gotcha!" moment on Zakk that really just seems like a twist in wording, and his weird questioning to the mod about whether or not scum have daytalk comes off as pretty forced towntells. From there, his posts kind of fall off awkwardly, and kind of culminate in the worst way possible with his comment to the mod about how the scum must have encryptors. It's weird, and it's forced.

I'm inclined to think that

Egg

is town. My only concern with him is that he asks a lot of really important, interesting questions, but it seems like his questions don't really lead him to any conclusions, and I worry that could be used as a filler. Otherwise, he's a townread.

Zakk

and

EspeciallytheLies

are still town, as I previously covered.

Titus

is town too. I don't think I need to explain these, but I can if needed.

Persivul

is probably scum too. His attacks are super weak and it seems like he's grasping at straws to find reads - particularly in posts #950, #986, and #792 all come off as really, really desperate.

I could be sold on

heuristically_alone

being scum, especially because his recent reads list is a lot of words with little reasoning/substance.

I'm gonna call that "good enough". If anyone has specific questions about a read, feel free.

Anyone that I didn't mention is null/scum.

[projectmatt]

Vote: Aneninen

[projectmatt]

No problem =) I'm glad to see u in this game

[projectmatt]

@ProjectMatt - Why are your reads so bad? HA's wall had reasoning. Why do you think HA's readwall lacks reasoning, but TBG has depth?

TBG handled the pressure on him extremely well? Are we even reading the same thread? 1178 is a pile of hypocritical garbage.

Anen's behavior is fine and I even referenced a game to compare to.

Nahdia read is right for wrong reasons.

HA's readwall because it has stuff like:

Titus- I’ve played with Titus in his scum game, and she is really hard to read as scum. Titus is really good at making any player she wants appear scummy if she wants. While I’ve seen scum and town reads, I don’t see any attempts to make elaborate pushes bringing up evidence for it, so I want to say town lean.

that comes off as slightly illogical and like a very, very weird meta read. The reason HA has you as town is because you haven't tunneled anyone so far, which is weird.

What's hypocritical about #1178? It looks pretty solid to me. I don't see where he has flailed under pressure at all. I'd love some examples.

I don't think Anen's behavior is fine, for reasons I listed.

[projectmatt]

As a correction to that previous post, HA's readwall is bad because of the thing that I quoted above.

[projectmatt]

I also now see your reasons for disliking #1178 after looking again, but I don't find them particularly solid.

[projectmatt]

Matt I think that quote is what we would call well poisoning.

Can you elaborate? I know what well poisoning means in this context, but I don't see how it relates.

[projectmatt]

Are you saying that HA set that up so that if Titus later attempts to push for the actual scum, HA can discredit it by referencing his read? Interesting.

[projectmatt]

The block is a silly idea, IMO. I know that the intention is noble, but it sounds like a really easy way for players to coast or not form reads of their own based on the idea of "voting in a block". Also, I highly doubt that the majority of the people in that block will agree on one vote.

[projectmatt]

I'll post tomorrow!

[projectmatt]

Page 50:
Projectmatt, do you think scum is pushing Copper or do you just disagree with the points being made?

If I recall correctly, the majority of people who attacked Copper are actually people who I townread. I believe that the points made against Copper were bad, but thankfully his wagon seems to now be a non-starter.

Off the top of my head, the read walls as she was catching up. I don't really see a scum motive for that, when she's very clearly not playing for townpoints in every other post. The fact that they hardly changed is indicative of a real reads list to me, as I think she if she were faking it, she would have been more apt to change her "reads" more.

@

Projectmatt

– I’d love to hear you response to this comment. I really would.

It's bad logic. I actually think his logic is very silly, and I generally find unwavering confidence in reads to be a bad thing. That said though, I'm not looking up to TehBrawlGuy as the pinnacle of good logic/agreement. I also don't think bad logic is inherently scum.

Page 50 – 52

Three whole minutes to back away from his twice strongly stated Brawl Town read. Brawl flips scum and Matt should be first up against the wall following him.

Well, that's a disappointing accusation. It's also really weird and makes me feel like you're intentionally misrepping me. I said that I understood why Titus disliked a post, but I also said that I didn't agree with him. My townread on TBG is still the same.

I'm a stubborn player, so I'm stubbornly staying on the Anen wagon. However, it looks like I might have to compromise and go for my other scum read (Persivul), since he's a close second on my list. I'll see if that is the best option after I get off work tomorrow.

I still really don't understand the Brawl wagon. Can someone please explain to me their case on him?

[projectmatt]

I was planning on posting content tomorrow afternoon/evening, but I didn't realize how close we were to the end of the day. Granted that Persivul has been my 2nd top scumread for the majority of the day, I am both okay and pleasantly surprised with the wagon. I don't intend to hammer on it yet though.

If the day is still going on, I'll be around tomorrow afternoon/evening to post my thoughts, or at least observe what's going on.

[projectmatt]

Okay.

I just finished catching up with everything I missed, and I don't understand the weird last minute resistance to the Pers wagon. It's actually making me rather uncomfortable with him not being lynched today. I'm seeing a lot of attempts to derail the wagon onto other VI-ish players like Killthestory based on what seems to be policy, but no actual substance or ability to decipher if the counter-wagons are scum.

I'll be awake for probably another hour, but I won't be able to check back tomorrow until the evening, so I'm seriously considering hammering the lynch tonight because I fear pretty heavily what you guys may do if it get left unattended.

Although I've dropped off with my own reads in the past few days or so, my consistent scumread on Pers throughout the game has stayed the same and only been soldified, while I'm not comfortable with KTS even though I find them insufferable in many ways.

[projectmatt]

Oh, I somehow completely missed him getting off the wagon.

[projectmatt]

In that case:

Unvote

Vote: Persivul

Really not feeling comfortable with a KTS counter-wagon.

[projectmatt]

I'm going to avoid the temptation to gloat about the fact that all of my townreads were right, and suggest this:

Vote: Aneninen

[projectmatt]

Nahdia idk why you gotta be that way but it's ok because you're voting scum w/me

[projectmatt]

yah you were like "hah matt is scum" after i did my catch-up/analysis post but i'm not sure why. as long as you continue to have other reads that don't suck, i'm not particularly bothered by it.

[projectmatt]

Anen, that was a really ugly OMGUS that I'm too lazy to counter right now but probably will tomorrow. Would you care to expand on that logic? What specifically about the content of my reaction toward the Pers wagon threw you off?

[projectmatt]

I'm not going to lie - Copper's vote "analysis" where he is basically just tracking the votes reads as so strange and weird to me that I can't figure out what the town motivation is for doing something like that. Is there something I'm missing? What's the purpose? (I'm p. sure someone already called him out on this but I'm lazy and don't remember).

Also I should probably be more active and a large force in this game, but every time I look through this thread I pretty much think to myself "huh, yeah, my reads are still fairly similar. cool.", and I'm not sure what to post. I'll probably try to pull off some more analysis/in-depth reading for the sake of my own reads/.

[projectmatt]

@Anen, once again, your attack feels less like a sincere attack and more like a really bad OMGUS due to the fact that I've been pushing on you the most severely. Your misrepresentation of my post is also really, really bad. I claimed that I couldn't see a town motivation for Copper's post, and I wanted him or someone else to explain the rationale behind it. I never claimed that my reads don't evolve - I said that they've remained the same in the past 5 or 6 real life days. Furthermore, I've stated my thoughts (as far I know) on all of the things that you've mentioned - and I find it silly to repeat myself unnecessarily. I still feel perfectly OK with my vote on you. Just for your sake though, I'll tell you more about the things that I believe I've already spoken about tonight when I get off work.

[projectmatt]

pmatt doesn't feel like a newb at all guys

I took a break for like a year, but I'm not really new. I think that I have a propensity to be generally suspected regardless of my alignment, and I think that's because I read/say things that tend to be more honest about where I'm coming from/my perspective, and they tend to get read as classic "scum tells" by other players.

I'm not saying that to whine or to excuse myself from anything I say, BTW. I'm not particularly bothered by Anen's vote on me, because he's scum. I just find it interesting that I generally come across that way.

[projectmatt]

I actually have a day off tomorrow.

So, stuff then.

[projectmatt]

My motivation is dead, but here's a few things:

@Magna, why do you now believe that I'm town? What was your post #1433 about? In particular, you asked me my thoughts on somebody talking about how reads change, and you said in post #1800, that you would know judging by my response whether or not I was scum-Matt.

Your question was clearly in reference to a game that was on-going at the time, (Fire and Ice Mafia, that just recently finished) as it related to a scumtell I pointed out from you that I had used to get you lynched. (I was mafia.) Now that the game is finished, it looks like your conclusion should be that I'm also mafia in this game, as my logic is slightly similar. So, what changed?

I'm asking because I found your questioning and reading about an on-going game to be really weird.

I'm going to go ahead and re-examine my read on Copper soon, as many of my townreads going after him is making me think that I've missed something. Would someone care to explain what about Copper makes him worth the vote?

I need to examine KOP's slot. I had a scumread on Seth for most of the game that kind of dwindled because I convinced myself he was simply new/VI, but I've not really paid much attention to KOP's posts at all - and it's come to my attention that he has apparently posted some pretty weak things.

[projectmatt]

Also, my scumread on Anen still hasn't ceased, and I'm a little frustrated that nobody seems to feel the same way. Do I need to make a large case on him? I guess I could do that.

[projectmatt]

Oh yeah, now that I'm looking at his ISO - I remember that I've actually been reading Copper as town in the past few days. What's the argument against him?

[projectmatt]

What? Why? That's about the first time you've even mentioned Magna in the game, apart from at the very beginning. Is it because I just lightly attacked him?

[projectmatt]

Projectmatt, were your reads on the dead players really so good that your reads didn't change for Day 2? I'm asking because I legitimately don't remember yourreads on those four players.

I mean, my reads have still had the same solid basis (Anen is scum, Ircher is probably town), but I've gone back and forth pretty heavily on a few of my reads (like Copper and KOP and now Liger - because his vote on Magna right after I lightly attacked him seems like such a weird jump.)

I'm still waiting to understand the case on Copper. For those who think he is scum, could you please point me to either your case on him that I may have missed, or post one?

Page 105:
I don't like projectmatt playing the lynch bait card. I don't think of him as lynch bait

Historically speaking, I feel like I generally am. I try to rise above that, though. In general, it's hard for me to bring the topic up of "people tend to read me as scum very easily, and I'm not 100% sure why" without sounding like "I'm a crybaby mafia that got caught and is trying to appeal to emotions."

Kop (6) - Expedience, Lowell, Ircher, MagnaOfIllusion, Nosferatu, Aneninen

Likely scum pushed wagon

That's a strong statement. Who on the wagon do you think is scum? I believe that you scumread Magna, but who else in order for it to be a "scum-pushed wagon"? What are your thoughts on Anen?

I could compromise on Kop, considering the wagon looks to be all town. I just think Seth was town.

I think Zakk is still much better though.

For the most part, I townread you, but posts like these make me feel uncomfortable because it feels like you're very easily setting yourself to vote for Kop as a "compromise", while framing it in the way that "when Kop is town, Zakk is still the best choice."

[projectmatt]

Considering that Copper has been one of your primary lines of attack for this entire game, I'm not comfortable with you saying that you'll make a case on him -later-.

[projectmatt]

Association with who? You need to elaborate.

Another question while I'm reading through ISO'S:

Lowell,

you've had Anen as a scum-lean for most of the game. Why have you refused to consider voting for him/interact with him even though you have a scumread?

I'm asking because I've been claiming that Anen is probably scum for most of the game, but it seems like even those who agree are weirdly distant from him, or scared to vote him. I don't get it.

[projectmatt]

Additional notes to myself: I read through Zakk's ISO again after townreading him earlier, but it literally goes right through me. I don't know how to read his playstyle at all, and so I don't know what my read on him is. I'm pretty sure I read his earlier posts as pretty town-motivated and full of life, but right now I'm reading them really apathetically. I am unsure why.

Nosferatu is probably mafia that's been overlooked, because his content looks really terrible to me after a cursory readthrough. I should probably look more into that.

Titus is still coming off as town - I'm inclined to think that most of the scumreads on him are based on paranoia.

Shotty is still town too, even though I still really loathe his playstyle. It comes off as disturbingly useless.

[projectmatt]

Kop, is it not obvious who I was refering to? It's just like how someone jumped on me earlier when I said us clearly refering to Titus and me in that context.

But that's not right at all. It can't be an association read completely. You scumread Copper near the very start of the game, long before KOP was even a factor.

You obviously have reasons to vote for Copper other than him being associated with KOP, or you're bullshitting.

[projectmatt]

Okay. Good response. You can remain as town, then. My only question is it about the way you're reading the game that makes Anen very likely town?

Also, I want to persist with my "Ircher is clearly town, and you guys are stupid for voting him" shtick, but his sudden silence after I just called him out on presumably lying is very telling.

[projectmatt]

That seems like an exaggeration - I just ISO'd Nosferatu and he's attacked Anen several times but refused to vote for him. That's part of why I scumread Nosferatu - because it feels like he's trying to set himself up for future credit if Anen flips scum, while still refusing to vote for Anen.

Regardless though, I'll try to compile what I specifically dislike about Anen.

[projectmatt]

I agree that Nahdia was someone who started the Anen wagon - I simply think that Nosferatu didnt't.

Funnily enough, the reasons that you read Nahdia as scum are the reasons why I partially read her as town. I'm also waiting for her catch-up content as well.

[projectmatt]

But that's the thing. Nosferatu is sheeping Nahdia in words only. He has claimed that Anen is scum, but refused to vote for him. He's attacked Anen but not without quickly backing off.

I don't think they have a common agenda. Nahdia actually voted for Anen and wanted him lynched, and Nosferatu just talked about how Anen is scummy.

[projectmatt]

Fuck.

I feel really vindicated. Anen flipping scum also means that I have to stop tunneling him and figure out who else is most likely scum, though.

I have an 8 and a half hour shift tomorrow so I'll probably not be able to post anything substantial until Monday, or late tomorrow night.

Zakk, would you mind making a case as to why Titus is scum? I'm struggling to see it.

[projectmatt]

idk I don't remember you posting anything substantial about Titus but I probably missed it, so thx

[projectmatt]

I was wrong

[projectmatt]

Ok content really soon, maybe tonight actually. My super long work week is over!

[projectmatt]

ok if i don't post solid A+ content tonight, u should policy lynch me. (this is my only way to stay motivated to post content in a game that i've become weirdly unmotivated toward.)

[projectmatt]

My top scum-read is actually

Nosferatu

. Here's the short version:

The first thing I noticed about Nosferatu when I read through his ISO is his tendency to go very heavily with the popular/easy to push on votes. In post #154, he votes for Copper with the specific reasoning that he believes that Titus's case is strong.

His very next "content" post is post #441. In this post, he lightly attacks Copper and then proceeds to vote for SethYazura. At that point in the game, guess who the only other vote on Seth was?

Copper.

Meaning that in his first 2 posts, Nosferatu attacked Copper strongly, voted him, and then proceeded to vote for the person that his top scum-read was voting. That's weird, and it comes off super awkwardly.

It was no secret that I thought Copper was pretty town throughout most of this game (save for a few moments of doubt), and I'm inclined to believe that Copper was being used as an easy target for scum to attack and quote as a "possible lynch", even though Copper didn't have any particularly strong scum-tells. Nosferatu's vote leads me to believe that he was doing the same, because his reasoning was "yeah, Titus is right", when Titus's reasoning was just straight up lame.

Oh, by the way - Nosferatu never voted Copper again during the course of this game, but only lightly attacked him or said that he was a possible choice for a lynch. This contributes to my theory that Copper was an easy target to attack without having to commit to logically stating -why-.

The rest of Nosferatu's posting is very tonally awkward/non-committal/going with the flow kind of play, but there's some very choice things about his vote on Anen that makes me suspect he is scum as well.

For one, Nosferatu has done the same thing with Anen that he did with Copper - he has lightly posted scumreads on Anen while

never

voting for him. This is bothersome because it looks like lightly bussing scum that was afraid to commit to the Anen wagon. If Anen really was one of his top scumreads, why didn't he join me or Nahdia on the vote? Why didn't he post anything substantial about Anen at all?

And look, I could excuse some of this stuff, if it wasn't for this post:

That seems like an exaggeration - I just ISO'd Nosferatu and he's attacked Anen several times but refused to vote for him. That's part of why I scumread Nosferatu - because it feels like he's trying to set himself up for future credit if Anen flips scum, while still refusing to vote for Anen.

Regardless though, I'll try to compile what I specifically dislike about Anen.

you're absolutely fucking right I'm taking credit post-game when anen flips scum, cause I scumread that shit and the rest of the town didn't. I'm an egotistical bastard and that's what I do.

I'm not refusing to vote for anen, but I won't be today, because anen can be vigged or can be hit by cross kills. Kop is a much more realistic risk. When you've got two people who commit a crime, do you indict the construction worker who killed a man or the med-tech executive who committed fraud? The med-tech executive, since he's a flight risk! A commuter is objectively higher in priority in lynches because you can't vig him, unless you try over and over again, and at that point you're wasting vig targets.

Look, this is

bullshit.

You aren't going to get any towncred for correctly suspecting Anen, when you did absolutely nothing to help the cause of lynching Anen. You posting this only further confirms my suspicions that your motivation for suspecting Anen was so that you could get "towncred" when he flipped.

I think this post frustrates me the most because it's somebody trying to take credit for "reading Anen correctly", when doing that is completely empty if you don't take any kind of action.

So yeah, to put it shortly, Nosferatu is all talk and no action. I think he's scum.

I'll post other stuff in a sec too, but I want to keep this post separate from the rest.

[projectmatt]

Oh and for the record, I see his reasoning in post #2828 for why he didn't vote Anen. It just reads like a lame excuse to me.

[projectmatt]

I still think that Titus and Zakk are both town. I understand the case on Titus, but I honestly can't shake my townread on him no matter how many times I comb through his ISO. His play sincerely reads to me like somebody trying to earnestly find scum, and I don't see any particular kind of fake/made up style of play in his methods at all. Zakk has also made himself fairly clearly town to me during this day especially. Unless he's ridiculously good at faking content/tone, my townread is still the same.

I guess that Lowell is conftown.

I still think that Nahdia is town too - but her playstyle always comes off as really awkward/lazy to me. She has 2x the amount of posts of me, but a lot of her ISO was totally devoid of content. That said though, some of the stuff that initially read to me as weird posturing now kind of reads as a sincere attempt to find scum. Also, there's the whole her and I hiveminding on Anen thing. I'm feeling OK with calling her town, but not strongly.

Look, my ego will not allow me to call Ircher scum. I also admit that my ego is probably giving me rose-colored glasses of his ISO. I've been defending him since the early game, and I still don't think he's scum. I think that some people (like Nahdia) are confusing newbie tells for scum-tells. Like, when he is reliant on the wiki as to why there must be a scum in the neighborhood, I don't read that as scum. I read that as somebody trying really, really hard, and mistakenly using a source that isn't accurate. I'm pretty sure I've delved into why he's town before as well, so I'm not going to explain it again.

I'm beginning to second-guess my townread on Egg. I initially thought his analysis was incredibly town and impressive. However, him being perpetually behind on catching up reads to me more like a crutch to not contribute than it is an actual attempt to be up to speed. Maybe Egg and I have different styles of play, but he doesn't need to go through every single page and give a detailed response. If you're behind on the game, read through and it give a summary of all your thoughts. I really hope that he picks up the play and engages with the current game soon, because I really dislike his recent output. Unfortunately, the V/LA isn't inspiring me, and cynically makes me feel like he'll use it as a reason to become even further behind.

Sometimes Magna comes off a little awkward or forced to me - like his aggressive attacks on Copper yesterday that came off as a little bit weak/far too confident. But his analysis of interactions with Anen today has been A+ material, and he handled his response to my questioning pretty well. I lean town on him.

I want Shotty dead. But I don't think Shotty is scum. I'm also not willing to lynch Shotty. I just think his style of play is so aggressively terrible, and I don't get it. I'm sorry if that seems harsh, but I'm just really annoyed by his style. His reads look like he's jumping from wagon to wagon without actually reading the game, and he rarely states thoughts that actually come off as coherent. That said though, I regretfully still think that he's town, and I really wish that I didn't.

I scumread HA a pretty fair amount when this game started, and that makes me also read Shaziro in a little bit more of an aggressive light. I have the same complaint about him that I had about HA - a lot of his content comes off not like actual scumhunting but rather posts that specifically are looking for the next person to attack. I don't know if that makes sense. In my head, scum and town play the game pretty differently. Scum look for people to target or suspect and try to frame it as scumhunting, while town don't normally have an underlying agenda. His posts come off to me like they have that agenda, and that they are aggressively looking for someone to push on.

I'm conflicted about Liger. I really dislike his vote on Magna yesterday (because it came weirdly after I had questioned Magna) and his vote on Ircher today also feels forced. But his reconsidering about Ircher today comes off like a possible town move. I'm waiting to see more content from him today. A reads list would be great.

[projectmatt]

Short version of that wall:

Town:

Titus, Zakk, Nahdia, Lowell, Ircher, Egg, Magna, Shotty

Scum:

Nosferatu, Egg, Shaziro, Liger (?)

I'm not gonna bother with the vig exercise right now.

Vote: Nosferatu

[projectmatt]

did you actually read that post and think that I wanted town cred from anen flipping? I was going to get town cred post game? lmao

this is a bad non-response, also of course if you say "i want credit post-game for calling out the scum when no one else did", you'll want credit when they flip scum during the game.

[projectmatt]

Egg - is perpetually catching up and I don't like that.

This is mainly me being egotistical, but I am sad that you totally stole my language to describe Egg. I thought "perpetually catching up" was a cool way to put it, and I felt cool & original.

I'm beginning to second-guess my townread on Egg. I initially thought his analysis was incredibly town and impressive. However, him being

perpetually behind on catching up

reads to me more like a crutch to not contribute than it is an actual attempt to be up to speed.

I'll fight u, Egg/AKA plagiarist!!

[projectmatt]

Wow, I meant: "I'll fight u, Nosferatu/AKA plagiarist!!!". My sleep deprivement betrays me.

[projectmatt]

So, your response to me saying "I think that you were bussing Anen for town-cred" is to say "Nah, I wouldn't do that!", which really doesn't help me. I don't think I need to explain the benefits of bussing but not committing to the bus like you did.

[projectmatt]

So, your response to me saying "I think that you were bussing Anen for town-cred" is to say "Nah, I wouldn't do that!", which really doesn't help me. I don't think I need to explain the benefits of bussing but not committing to the bus like you did.

Do you see how you're accusing me of busing anen for towncred? And how you were suspicious of me before the anen flip? Do you see how the choice in bus targeting here nullifies the point of the bus in the first place? QED.

No, because the chance that someone (like me) may have suspected you of bussing your partner before your partner flipped does not in any way diminish the potential benefits of bussing.

[projectmatt]

why did u ignore my big wall of content attacking nosferatu and instead ask about my in-jest comment to him? =(

[projectmatt]

i basically wanted to hear your thoughts about it, but i'll call that good enough for the moment! i would strongly suggest ISO'ing him on your own and letting me know what you think as well.

[projectmatt]

i also think you (and shotty... maybe even more shotty) showing up right after i noted in particular that your activity was low, and then showing up, was kinda ...

beetlejuice-y, as anen wrote about nosferatu in 1295.

coincidence? let's find out.

that's fair, but i've also been promising content for the last few days, so tonight was finally the night that i -actually- decided to deliver. it wasn't because of you. (although when people call me out for lurking i feel guilty and become more inclined to contribute.)

also, my avatars cuteness is actually like 40% of my gameplay strategy, so no can do.

[projectmatt]

Nosferatu, I'd love to see a response to my accusations against you. (I know that you briefly responded to the Anen thing, but there's way more than that.)

Also you giving me some "town points" for having "good reads" when you clearly didn't read my post until Zakk mentioned it bothers me, but w/e.

[projectmatt]

also yes zakk, i am not proud of the fact that i tend to slump pretty hard during games. but hey, i got back together. for now.

and shotty has been posting but he isn't actually been posting content so it's p. much as good as being silent

[projectmatt]

regarding my switch from copper to seth, I felt more confident in my own observation skills than sheeping titus's in this case, copper was looking at bit more townie to me on a first glance.

I could buy this if you didn't proceed to still FOS Copper pretty strongly throughout the rest of the game, and never once actually state that he looked more town to you. This reads like a silly excuse to me.

I posted what I believe to be substantial posting about anon (my responses to his case on me), but yeah I didn't vote him at the time. Why? The closest answer I can give you is partially self-doubt and partially just "I dun wanna".

What??? This is not true!

In this post:

I'm not refusing to vote for anen, but I won't be today, because anen can be vigged or can be hit by cross kills. Kop is a much more realistic risk. When you've got two people who commit a crime, do you indict the construction worker who killed a man or the med-tech executive who committed fraud? The med-tech executive, since he's a flight risk! A commuter is objectively higher in priority in lynches because you can't vig him, unless you try over and over again, and at that point you're wasting vig targets.

You literally gave your reasoning for not voting Anen, and it was nothing close to "self-doubt" or "I dun wanna". Boo!

I swear my point went over your head so fast, so high; you looking up and trying to make sense of it made your nose bleed right onto your keyboard and typed this post. The idea is that with the number of people suspecting me and the small chance of anyone changing their read because of the way I approached anen's wagon makes busing a waste of two scum members.

I understand your point, I just don't think it's true. Your argument hinges on bussing Anen being a big waste of time, when in most cases, it likely wouldn't be.

[projectmatt]

Matt – so your conclusion as far as this section goes is that Nos treated Copper and Anen the same (weak attacks without a major push), they flipped opposite alignments, and both make Nos look more like scum?

Yeah, but for different reasons. His attack on Copper looks scummy because he did it with little reasoning and as an easy line of attack, but he backed off when Copper's wagon wasn't getting as much traction. His attack on Anen looks scummy because he gave a long case against Anen, but weirdly distanced himself at the same time.

So for the sake of argument pretend Nos is off the table – which of the others would you be most likely to support? Because I think you are Town and have similar reads on the other three but don’t see myself going after Nos.

Probably Shaziro, as he's my most confident of the reads apart from Nosferatu, and I want to give Egg a little bit of a chance to catch up and post content. If he doesn't, then he'll become my primary target. (after Nos, of course.) Why can't you see yourself going after Nos?

Shotty further confirmed my townread on him in the last few pages.

Everything else is still the same. Cy's readlist is so painfully bad, but w/e.

[projectmatt]

Didn't even realize it had been 48 hours.

I'm really happy with the fact that the Nos wagon is gaining traction.

Maybe I'll post more content tonight if I don't feel too lazy.

[projectmatt]

Also, no matter how much I try, I simply can't see Titus as scum. I'm sorry. It just doesn't work for me.

[projectmatt]

Sort of a prod dodge. I'm very content with the Nosferatu wagon and I'm going to repost my case on him in case anybody wants to know some of why I find him so scummy:

My top scum-read is actually

Nosferatu

. Here's the short version:

The first thing I noticed about Nosferatu when I read through his ISO is his tendency to go very heavily with the popular/easy to push on votes. In post #154, he votes for Copper with the specific reasoning that he believes that Titus's case is strong.

His very next "content" post is post #441. In this post, he lightly attacks Copper and then proceeds to vote for SethYazura. At that point in the game, guess who the only other vote on Seth was?

Copper.

Meaning that in his first 2 posts, Nosferatu attacked Copper strongly, voted him, and then proceeded to vote for the person that his top scum-read was voting. That's weird, and it comes off super awkwardly.

It was no secret that I thought Copper was pretty town throughout most of this game (save for a few moments of doubt), and I'm inclined to believe that Copper was being used as an easy target for scum to attack and quote as a "possible lynch", even though Copper didn't have any particularly strong scum-tells. Nosferatu's vote leads me to believe that he was doing the same, because his reasoning was "yeah, Titus is right", when Titus's reasoning was just straight up lame.

Oh, by the way - Nosferatu never voted Copper again during the course of this game, but only lightly attacked him or said that he was a possible choice for a lynch. This contributes to my theory that Copper was an easy target to attack without having to commit to logically stating -why-.

The rest of Nosferatu's posting is very tonally awkward/non-committal/going with the flow kind of play, but there's some very choice things about his vote on Anen that makes me suspect he is scum as well.

For one, Nosferatu has done the same thing with Anen that he did with Copper - he has lightly posted scumreads on Anen while

never

voting for him. This is bothersome because it looks like lightly bussing scum that was afraid to commit to the Anen wagon. If Anen really was one of his top scumreads, why didn't he join me or Nahdia on the vote? Why didn't he post anything substantial about Anen at all?

And look, I could excuse some of this stuff, if it wasn't for this post:

That seems like an exaggeration - I just ISO'd Nosferatu and he's attacked Anen several times but refused to vote for him. That's part of why I scumread Nosferatu - because it feels like he's trying to set himself up for future credit if Anen flips scum, while still refusing to vote for Anen.

Regardless though, I'll try to compile what I specifically dislike about Anen.

you're absolutely fucking right I'm taking credit post-game when anen flips scum, cause I scumread that shit and the rest of the town didn't. I'm an egotistical bastard and that's what I do.

I'm not refusing to vote for anen, but I won't be today, because anen can be vigged or can be hit by cross kills. Kop is a much more realistic risk. When you've got two people who commit a crime, do you indict the construction worker who killed a man or the med-tech executive who committed fraud? The med-tech executive, since he's a flight risk! A commuter is objectively higher in priority in lynches because you can't vig him, unless you try over and over again, and at that point you're wasting vig targets.

Look, this is

bullshit.

You aren't going to get any towncred for correctly suspecting Anen, when you did absolutely nothing to help the cause of lynching Anen. You posting this only further confirms my suspicions that your motivation for suspecting Anen was so that you could get "towncred" when he flipped.

I think this post frustrates me the most because it's somebody trying to take credit for "reading Anen correctly", when doing that is completely empty if you don't take any kind of action.

So yeah, to put it shortly, Nosferatu is all talk and no action. I think he's scum.

[projectmatt]

I believe Titus's claim, and I'm not particularly surprised by it. Every time I see Liger post more, I get a little bit more suspicious of him as well.

P
I don't like projectmatt and Nos thinking my buying a house, moving, and working 16 hour days is scummy. That's effectively what you are saying when you scumread me for being behind. Just FYI.

Lol, talk about a misrep. The reason that I find you scummy has nothing to do with you being busy. I'm really busy too!

Obviously, you have time to invest into this game in spite of your busy schedule. My problem is that you've been spending that time making long wall-posts about stuff that happened beforehand, and never allowing yourself to catch up. You don't need to share your thoughts on every single page. That's why it looks to me like you're coasting.

I like your recent output too, but this is annoying.

[projectmatt]

hi matt [:

hi nahdia =) how is it going??

Hmmph, pm thoughts on egg?

As I think I mentioned before, I think most of his posting in the past day or so has been terrible and his perpetual catching up seemed like a way to coast on the game. His recent posts have been okay, and now that he's "caught up", I'm waiting to see where his reads/ideas fall. In other words, he's still a scumread but that read can develop based on how he actually plays the game now that he's caught up.

[projectmatt]

Prod dodge until I post more stuff tomorrow.

[projectmatt]

I need to look over everything again.

Cy, unvote.

Nobody should be voting yet. Don't be stupid.

[projectmatt]

Okay, cool. I'm a VT.

Why did you want -me- specifically to claim first, Nahdia?

[projectmatt]

Liger
Egg
Magna
Zakk

I'm going to leave out Cy, Titus, and Nahdia out of the picture since they are all town. (I'm so glad that Nahdia is conftown because I was about to paranoia suspect her).

I want to quickly jump the gun and basically just be like "Zakk is town, so it's Liger, Egg, and Magna", but I'm pretty sure I'd be doing myself a disservice if I immediately jumped to that conclusion without ISO'ing him again. I feel like it's gonna be quite hard for me to lose my Zakk townread though, given that him and Titus have been strong townreads since pretty early on.

It only throws me off because I also had a townread on Magna pretty reasonably strongly. So, there's a scum in Zakk and Magna that I missed, and I need to figure it out.

Even so though, my lynchlist today is definitely these two:

Liger
Egg

Because I'm like 98% sure that both of them are scum.

[projectmatt]

Pmatts Nosferatu case

+

What did you like about my Nosferatu case? It turned out to be wrong.

[projectmatt]

Eh, that's a fair point. Liger is at the top of my list, but would you be willing to compromise on Egg if the situation calls for it? If not, what do you think about Egg?

[projectmatt]

Eh. I just worked two 11 hour shifts. Give me until later tomorrow night to gather my thoughts coherently. Don't be stupid and lynch yet, please.

[projectmatt]

[quote="In post 4091, cytheflyguy" Imo, PM has the most case against him
[/quote]


?????

I'd definitely be interested in hearing

[projectmatt]

So now we are in a holding pattern so ProjectMatt can provide content. I need to find a cool helicopter reaction pic ..

Lol, this looks like a lame excuse to not provide content. How are you guys being put in a holding pattern by me needing 24 hours to post content? We have 8 days until the deadline. It's an incredibly stupid idea to lynch so soon, even if we had a confirmed mafia. The idea is that more discussion leads to a lot more stuff to analyze/better reads.

A few things:

Egg is obviously, blatantly scum. I'm leaning him being partnered with Magna because of this post:

No. I don't do that.

who do you think is scum.

My best guess is Magna but my confidence is pretty shattered in this game.

In which he awkwardly tries to bus Magna but in a way that's non-committal so that he doesn't actually have to vote -for- Magna.

There's also this gem from yesterday:

Damn, why am I still alive =(

I kinda wanna lynch Magna but my reads have been shit.

Which makes a Magna pairing even more likely because he is once again awkwardly suspecting Magna without even remotely needing to commit.

Also, Magna's really terrible push on Copper that I initially read as town v town makes a lot more sense now if it was town vs scum.

The scum-team is still Liger, Magna, and Egg, because my townread on Zakk hasn't waivered.

I'm amused but frustrated that the majority of people now attacking me are people who haven't had scumreads on me for pretty much the entire game. I think it's because on days like this, it becomes a lot harder to attack the "big players" like Magna or even Egg, but I'm p. sure that the scumteam is those three. (assuming that we have 3 scum, anyway).

I wanna talk this stuff out with some of you guys.

[projectmatt]

projectmatt, i have no idea what you were doing all game, but good job not being lynched until D5 at least haha

lmao, my strategy was basically "you're going to get lynched/die later in the game so be super ambiguous about who your partners are and try to get the town lynched as much as you can" , i guess it kind of worked

good game, and good job zakk/magna/anen!!