New York 195: Adventure Mafia - Game over!

[Shaziro]

Hi folks! I'm headed to a Team Trivia game in a bit here, but once I'm done with that I'll be looking through what's up. Is there anything in particular that people want me to look at right now, would you prefer I not bother? I can say that through my first 10 pages of reading, I think I have some ideas.

[Shaziro]

Alright. Based on what I've seen I also think I'll look into Irch and DMS, unless something big happened that makes either of those not worth the effort?

P:edit- I always ISO and then if I see a post that pings, I go to it and look for the context. Doesn't everyone?

[Shaziro]

2. what "important" stuff did i miss? seems like a pissing match between you and someone else again.

You missed the big picture again - why would scum!pers choose to go up against town!Titus on D1? It makes absolutely no sense. You waved it off as wifom, which can be applied to 90% of this game.

I will say right off the bat before I head out, I really don't know what to think of this re-use of the "theoretical scum!pers" thing after being told it looks scummy. Town who doesn't care, scum sticking to his guns, etc. it's a lot of WIFOM to me but maybe one of you more experienced folks can elaborate, or maybe it's just null.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: ETL

sheep me on this read if you want to win

I just got back and I see this? Look, even I know that just saying "this is scum follow me blindly" is terrible. Half of the game is finding scum, the other half is convincing the rest of the town of that fact. You aren't doing the latter unless there was a whole lot of convincing before that you for some reason didn't vote on and I haven't seen yet (On page 22 so far, I did a bit more reading during Trivia), in which case I'm not convinced you're doing the former either.

[Shaziro]

Are Jesters considered bastard, or could that be a thing?

[Shaziro]

I'm going to leave KTS and ETL's stuff aside for now, looking at his ISO it got very heated and while I think the demands to townread him before you get anything is dumb and I don't feel like it's an effective reaction test like I think he was suggesting, it's just a big jumbled mess that I can't get a read on. Still catching up, but I don't know that KTS is scum. Not to say he can't be, just that I haven't come across any damning evidence yet.

[Shaziro]

While I'm doing this, can somebody tell me why Seth got dropped for the SK/Goon thing? They made it clear they aren't hard claiming SK...why did they specify hard claiming instead of just claiming? That seems like they typed it up quick and were thinking "I'm soft claiming", does it not? And then they also may have said they're a goon...Why is this not getting pushed right now? Was it pushed and resolved already?

[Shaziro]

I'm leaning town, apologies for the weird wording. If Jester isn't a thing, it just seems like a pointless argument and some petty squabbling among two players, and what actual play he has done that I've seen seems town beneficial.

[Shaziro]

Alright, right now I'm not a huge fan of Percivul, I'm gonna want to see how this troll account thing got decided, and I'm suspicious of Ircher, I think. That said, I'm about too tired to keep reading. When I misread the same post 5 times, I know it's about that time, y'know? I'll bench my readthrough for now, finish it in the AM, and get on the ball.

[Shaziro]

Alright, I started skimming some more because deadlines are scary. I'm not a huge fan of how ETL jumped to defend the pattern in voting Titus claimed to see, it almost seemed like trying to bury that point, but I don't have a good way to see if the pattern applied to him because it'd involve looking at the timing on all the votes in the game and, to be honest, ew. That said, I don't like Persivul's "Well I knew there might be scum in the neighborhood, so I did this scummy thing -because- of the scum potential!" argument. It seems kinda poorly thought out, and while that could mean he just didn't think much about it when he decided to do it, I see it more as a somewhat twitchy reaction.

I also read Persivul's 1513 1671 contradiction. I'm not convinced that wasn't a big flag by the "Oh, I meant to say town" thing. What kinda keyboard do you have where your o is near the c and the w is by the u?

As ETL pointed out, trying to keep ETL and Titus at odds is either scummy in game terms, or a bit of a rude strategy. I don't like it. Even if you think one is scum and you're trying to stop buddying, I think it'd be better to watch the interactions and see if it isn't scum coaching scum, right?

I think Shotty is worth looking into as well. Seems like at least by 1717 he's defending for Persivul, but trying to frame it as one of those "Oh I don't think so, I'm not convinced" kind of defenses. I pulled that one in a Skype Mafia game, it worked wonders when RC finally gave up on trying to argue it. I'd like to not see us get duped by it here.

[Shaziro]

Ohp. Meant to VOTE: Persivul

[Shaziro]

Can you two please avoid the personal attacks? I think y'all might do well to do what ETL and Titus set up early game, take a break and come back with some kind of safe word to avoid things getting too heated?

[Shaziro]

I have literally no clue what you're saying, and I'm starting to get the impression that you're scum trying for the "There's no way scum would be that obvious and trollish" thing. You're trying to shout at me about content, but you are providing little to none yourself, and are spamming up the thread. If you're town, I'd appreciate you cutting it out, but it comes off as scummy as hell to me. I had you as a townlean, but I'm on a scumlean now having experienced your play in the field rather than observing the past.

[Shaziro]

So you're going to just dismiss me saying that I think you're acting scummily and trying to both spam the thread and bluff people because I said I didn't understand what you were trying to say at the start? And you're going to ignore that you're being hypocritical in saying that somebody who just replaced in last night hasn't got much content, but you haven't provided much either?

[Shaziro]

No lynching day 1 is almost always detrimental to town, isn't it? I believe I read that or something.

[Shaziro]

Ohp. Meant to VOTE: Persivul

I am.

[Shaziro]

No lynching day 1 is almost always detrimental to town, isn't it? I believe I read that or something.

This is...I don't know. Anyone have experience with this guy? I'm dying to cast a vote here, this looks as contrived as anything I've seen.

Just this morning I finally completed my first newbie game, link at the bottom. I saw somebody suggest no-lynching, and I was confirming that it was a bad idea with others before trying to parse out if it'd be worth it today. Given that I then saw that Titus had said it was, in fact, a bad idea, I left it at that.


In this game, I was Town 1-shot Bulletproof

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66318

[Shaziro]

I don't get replaced usually cuz at one point or another I'll start doing something, and my reads will be so good they'll have to keep me in so scumteam doesn't straight win.

Pers is straight town though please don't vote him

Ok, I'll bite. I haven't seen what you see in the ISO, but I'll look through it again. In the meantime, can you give a -reason- you feel he's town?

[Shaziro]

Ok, so I can kinda see the tone thing with his "I knew there might be neighborhood scum so that's why I did X" thing. I still don't like 1671 and 1513 though. Are you seeing something there I'm not? In my newbie game, we caught somebody contradicting themselves like this and let it slide despite them just saying "Nah it was just a mistake". He was scum, and made it to endgame. I also still don't like the dividing ETL and Titus stuff. What were your thoughts on it?

[Shaziro]

I don't get replaced usually cuz at one point or another I'll start doing something, and my reads will be so good they'll have to keep me in so scumteam doesn't straight win.

Pers is straight town though please don't vote him

Ok, I'll bite. I haven't seen what you see in the ISO, but I'll look through it again. In the meantime, can you give a -reason- you feel he's town?

He's too focused on out of game situations rather than grabbing needless towncred. When I stated I knew his town meta, he focused on saying that his meta is unreliable rather than trying to appeal to me by either playing exactly to his meta, or him just pushing me in general. I also like his general content, and his tone is good. Overall solid town

saying the meta is unreliable is just as bad as appealing by changing his play to fit it.

I almost feel like saying it's unreliable might be worse? Seems like that'd be a scumflail, whereas changing your play could be town trying to do better?

[Shaziro]

Hence why it was part of my reason for voting. I actually didn't notice it on first glance at the ISO, but when looking for context on things I saw it'd come up and seemed to be quickly brushed under the rug.

[Shaziro]

Well with one day to lynch, wouldn't it be better just to lynch someone over not at all?

Or should we go to no lynch today?

In 99.99999% of circumstances, we lynch Day 1.

Are you townreading Persivul?

More or less, but I don't mind getting on a wagon for him.

what....?

[Shaziro]

Pers is at L-2

[Shaziro]

Wait that was a reaction test? I just assumed you were putting him at L-1 and making a joke about it.

[Shaziro]

I think that's a good thing!

I'm not gonna lie I don't get Ircher's points system, but I don't see anything inherently scummy, other than maybe trying to put stuff he can be linked to or not depending on if it is convenient for him down the line, but that'd rely on people not reading it, and we clearly are.

[Shaziro]

Neat

[Shaziro]

I don't buy it. You're also clearly detached from the game or faking it.

This is very apparent.

[Shaziro]

Well now that the VC has outed that, what was your aim with the fake hammer?

[Shaziro]

Yes, but who's reaction?

[Shaziro]

Her vote was the on the wagon and she has been constantly saying things like "come back to me", and there was already a claim. That's a very opportunistic vote there ETL.

[Shaziro]

It seemed very much like you were gearing up to try and start a fast wagon because the deadline is close. I don't like it. My vote is staying put though, because we don't need to no-lynch.

P-edit: I believe he claimed bland neighbor, did he not?

[Shaziro]

Oh hey. We got a kill lol. Let's see how he flips.

I'm not a fan of the "We got a kill" thing either...that seems scum-mindset.

[Shaziro]

I figured it was a fake hammer when I realized it was your vote. It only made sense that you were on the wagon, as you were the one pushing for it.

[Shaziro]

Oh hey. We got a kill lol. Let's see how he flips.

Defend this scummy ass shit.

[Shaziro]

Persivul needs to full claim.

Why do you assume there's more to be claimed?

[Shaziro]

Fair, seemed worded as an assumption. My apologies.

[Shaziro]

I didn't really bother, no. I figure my play will speak for itself. Would you recommend that?

[Shaziro]

If you're town more than your own play you should be concerned about what others are doing and looking at what from your perspective are incorrect pushes is a place to start. Assuming you are town:
1) Do you find the previous owner of the slot scummy (unfortunately you may be biased here, try to minimize it)
2) If yes, then which pushes seem like genuine town being suspicious? => you have a town read
3) If no, then which pushes seem opportunistic and indicative that the player pushing is doing so with an ulterior motive; i.e. that player is scum aligned. => you have a scum read.

I'll look through everything he said and responded to in the morning, as it's 1:11 AM right now and I'm largely just here to read sitechat and try to half-read things that pop up through a sleepy haze. I'll try to answers these for you though!

[Shaziro]

...I want you to explain that hammer and the circumstances that led you to make it.

[Shaziro]

You didn't hammer. Expedience was on the wagon, voted Nahdia and then immediately went back to Pers. That was a bit scummy of you though. I'll look that over again in the AM as well.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: Unvote So he can't try to recover that failed lolhammer.

[Shaziro]

Morning all. Now that everyone is up,
VOTE: Persivul

and I'll get to answering those questions.

[Shaziro]

Oh hey. We got a kill lol. Let's see how he flips.

Defend this scummy ass shit.

No o:

Also, can we cop this slot please?

[Shaziro]

I guess that makes sense, but can you agree that their behavior so far has been very scummy? I figured it would be better to see if they were actually scum or just a VI. In the former case, yay we've got scum to hang, in the latter we won't make the mistake my town did in my first game. Two mislynches because of scummy, scummy behavior by VTs.

[Shaziro]

Alright, so looking at my slot I can see some scummy behavior of his, mostly around the inactivity and the stuff with Cy. I think he was on the money with Cy acting scummy, but given that he had 17 posts in a page that has gone to 86 pages in day one, I'm willing to assume he was just not interested and wasn't paying attention. This would make sense as to why he double-voted. I also don't think the double vote was that scummy because of that, and I'm a bit suspicious of zakk for latching onto it like he did. Tacking a joke on to your vote isn't scum motivated, as Zakk proceeded to do the exact same thing -in the post he voted HA in-, what with his "we have cookies" joke. I think his point on HA joking about not liking to be read was fair, but I can't explain why HA felt that was wise. So I'm on a slight scumread on Zakk for that.

TBG quoted Zakk's reasons, but gave his own in that he felt HA was coasting. I feel like he may have seen Zakk's reasons as valid at first glance because he was already annoyed at my slot for what he felt was coasting. Again, I feel like it was just disinterest or maybe being overwhelmed by a large game, so I can see his reasons. Null to slight town on TBG.

Lowell is very similar to TBG's case, but I'm not sure I like that he came back and threw shade at me for...confirming the strategic value, or lack thereof, of no lynching? Null on him.

[Shaziro]

EBWOP: In a thread* not In a page.

[Shaziro]

Alright, I started skimming some more because deadlines are scary. I'm not a huge fan of how ETL jumped to defend the pattern in voting Titus claimed to see, it almost seemed like trying to bury that point, but I don't have a good way to see if the pattern applied to him because it'd involve looking at the timing on all the votes in the game and, to be honest, ew. That said, I don't like Persivul's "Well I knew there might be scum in the neighborhood, so I did this scummy thing -because- of the scum potential!" argument. It seems kinda poorly thought out, and while that could mean he just didn't think much about it when he decided to do it, I see it more as a somewhat twitchy reaction.

I also read Persivul's 1513 1671 contradiction. I'm not convinced that wasn't a big flag by the "Oh, I meant to say town" thing. What kinda keyboard do you have where your o is near the c and the w is by the u?

As ETL pointed out, trying to keep ETL and Titus at odds is either scummy in game terms, or a bit of a rude strategy. I don't like it. Even if you think one is scum and you're trying to stop buddying, I think it'd be better to watch the interactions and see if it isn't scum coaching scum, right?

Those are my major reasons, as of right now.

[Shaziro]

Just a thing I wanted to bring up as I was looking through his ISO, is it normal for Zakk to respond to a bit of doubt on his votes with "it was just a reaction test" / does it look like it actually was? He seemed very genuine with his vote to me.

Also splintering up like this so close to deadline is bad, we need to find a wagon and stick to it.

[Shaziro]

cy can go too

[Shaziro]

Whoever jumped on cy get back on pers, this is ridiculous

Obv there is opposition to his wagon

Pretty sure the jumpers all went to KTS

[Shaziro]

It's a bit scummy, I'll agree, but I think it might also just be worry that somebody will drop -off- again and cause a no-lynch.

I think this, because I'm feeling it too.

P-edit: Nope, he's just after a lynch nownownow. Not a fan of that.

[Shaziro]

So since you're pushing it, are you saying that if he flips town then you are likely scum?

[Shaziro]

Obviously I know I'm not, but yeah, from a neutral perspective, if KTS is Town that doesn't reflect well on egg/kop/me, especially if Pers is Scum. I don't think my reads are that far off though.

I like this response for town. Very level-headed and reasonable. I don't agree that we should do a KTS wagon, as I really do feel like Pers is scummy. I'm getting townvibes here though.

[Shaziro]

v\k n a i

???

For real, what the hell is this? I know Cryptography is not allowed.

[Shaziro]

Better yet. You claim that it's a thing you always do. Why don't you prove it with links to other cases in which you did it, Nos? Don't claim it's your meta if you're not willing to prove it, right?

[Shaziro]

I think it's kinda funny that the counter wagon only formed after somebody said "There's no counter wagon". Maybe we should look at who said that, and who then followed them blindly, as it could be team-indicative?

[Shaziro]

Better yet. You claim that it's a thing you always do. Why don't you prove it with links to other cases in which you did it, Nos? Don't claim it's your meta if you're not willing to prove it, right?

Look for it yourself, pretty sure you could find a case where I scum read someone and didn't vote them while they were being lynched.[/quote]
Burden of proof is on you, you're the one who claimed it was part of your meta. If it's that obvious, why can't you do it instead of telling everyone else "Oh it's there, just trust me"?

nos you think Pers is scum? If he doesn't flip scum know that I'll deathtunnel you.

if he flips town I'll deathtunnel myself

I'm very interested, gonna follow through on this? I doubt it, but it's interesting that you didn't even mention it.

[Shaziro]

Messed up the quote formatting there...somehow.

[Shaziro]

Even I have minor reservations on the Persivul wagon, but there's no way I am going for KTS. This is the wierdest collective response to a fake hammer in my recollection.

VC please

ETL, the reads you wanted to give please?

ok I've got shaziro, you, nahdia, liger, magna as town Zakk and pers as maybe town
copper maybe scum. shotty is ??? maybe scum? cy maybe scum less nulls than before but still more than I'd like atm. hang on. need to look at my list. (I'm mobile)

egg maybe scum. HA scum. expedience town. ircher kop are both still unknown. ircher because I don't know what I'm seeing in his ISO. prob lean more town on him than kop. I think Lowell might be town and tbg is null for the same reason ircher is. I can't make up my mind tbere. stuck.

Not sure if anybody else noticed, but since I replaced HA, ETL's reads there were kinda wonky. HA was scum, but I was town...I don't think that's how replacing in works. And it's not a matter of her thoughts changing over a bit of time...because it was literally two posts later, the one in between just being me pointing out that the "That's definitely VI, don't worry about it" reasoning got my town the loss in my last game. I can't tell if this was her not paying attention to the game or what.

[Shaziro]

I mean, it's pretty much a null point because we know ETL was town, but it still makes me feel like the read on my slot has gone without much thought, as nobody else pointed it out. I just noticed it because of Nahdia's quoting. Don't scum typically want the newbies to make it to endgame?

[Shaziro]

I'm saying that if ETL made that mistake it means that people are likely not paying attention to my slot. There were other people saying HA was scum, who I believe have now said I'm town. I'm saying that I think it would make sense that HA, who is more experienced that me, would make a good mislynch target, and then I would be better to keep to endgame because it's more likely I'll be misled. Does that make more sense?

[Shaziro]

Assumedly by self-voting. Again, I get that you won't do it, it was a stupid thing to offer, but I think it's interesting that you -did- offer it. As for burden of proof, all you saying "Oh it's not weird, it's a part of my meta!" and then refusing to prove that it's a part of you meta does is show that you're being disingenuous. It honestly seems to me like you're just saying things to get lynches on people other than you and then hoping anybody who would question it gets killed or forgets.

VOTE: Nosferatu

[Shaziro]

A perfect example would be your telling KTS to vote Percivul because "If he's town I'll death tunnel myself". Obviously, you wouldn't do that, because either way it'd be playing against your win-con unless you're a jester, which is apparently not in this game. KTS, however, went ahead and voted Pers because of it. That is you saying something to get somebody lynched.

[Shaziro]

Do you not feel like Nos is trying to avoid having to defend their own claim about their meta? Or that them trying to push KTS to vote Pers (Who I had also voted against, I'm not trying to deny that) by offering to deathtunnel themself (Which in actually I basically boil down to "If this is town, lynch me tomorrow" which is...still playing against your win condition no matter what?) and then trying to fling shade my way for pointing it out is scummy? I haven't made a claim without backing it up. They have. I find that scummy, so I put a vote there. I don't see what's wrong about that, Lowell.

[Shaziro]

I didn't push kill

This is 100% true, upon looking back at that exchange. My apologies. I'll go and check your meta once I get off mobile and back at home. I'll remove my vote if I find that kind of meta, because I thought of one potential reason you wouldn't be willing to give links that would still have you as town after realizing my mistake. Otherwise it's parked.

[Shaziro]

That's actually different than the reason I thought of, but I'll do that.

[Shaziro]

Alright, so the oldest games of yours that show in the search for "Vote" are 2015. I scanned and really couldn't find any behavior like this...except for one that was in a mafia PT. In that, you told your fellow scum that you really wanted to vote for somebody (itlpip in this case) to put them at L-1, but didn't want to because there was no resistance. You then asked them to throw some defense out. -That- fits this situation very well, honestly, as there was no resistance to Persivul's wagon and you were refusing to vote. I'm comfortable with my vote where it is right now, but I'd like to see if you can remember any games in particular you would like me to look over for your town behavior around not voting for somebody you want lynched despite being town.

[Shaziro]

The reason I thought of, by the by, is going to stay quiet for now for your own sake. I can say it if you particularly want, but I'm going to leave it mum unless you ask because it might harm town to say.

[Shaziro]

Ok so I looked at soccer spirits. You seemed to vote rather freely, honestly. It was also for some reason difficult to -find- Soccer Spirits, as one that I found as actually not the Soccer Spirits thread but I guess one for a sequel to it or a pre-sign up or...something? It was weird, and only 3 pages. But yeah, no. I don't see a case there where you said "Oh this is definitely scum" and then didn't vote. I also can't see any town motivation whatsoever in not voting somebody you think is scum.

[Shaziro]

So what you're saying is, if Nos changed their meta in other games to fit what they were claiming in this game, it would suggest they wanted you to see that and assume it was normal, which would be scummy?

[Shaziro]

Titus claimed to have shot TBG?

[Shaziro]

That seemed more like a reaction test to me. Interesting.

[Shaziro]

I just can't see Titus ever asking people for their opinions of her actions if she actually did them. I don't think she needs the validation and I think she would have better, non-self-outing methods of finding out.

[Shaziro]

@shaz, you got pretty excited for a minute there when you thought someone had claimed something. Anything else you're interested in?

It's "getting excited" to ask if a claim happened when somebody says it did? I had the same reaction when I saw people talking about neighbors, but I was able to look and see the origin of that back in the thread. I couldn't find where Titus had claimed a vig shot, so I asked for confirmation.

[Shaziro]

Why did it seem like a reaction test to you?

As Ircher said, the way you phrased it, asking what their reaction would be. It seemed to be more of a "Hey, this is just me getting a feel for what people are thinking of me while also waiting to see who runs with the assumption" kind of thing.

Who said anything on validation? Suggesting information can generate reads.

What do you think I am getting from my reaction test?

I think you were waiting for somebody to take that as an assumption that you were the vigilante and act differently towards you because of it, which is why I said "Interesting" about it being assumed that you were claiming it there.

If it is, don't out reaction tests. That generally ruins them.

I didn't say anything about it at the time, just like I didn't with the fakehammer earlier. Is it still too early to call it a reaction test when it was that long ago? I don't think you're really going to get any more reactions to it, and if it was a reaction test doesn't it benefit town to have them now know what it was and therefore be able to look at the reactions with that knowledge in mind?

[Shaziro]

No.

[Shaziro]

No.

Why not?

Two reasons, the first of which is that I don't feel like you'd claim like that. The second is for ~reasons~ that would be bad for town to be outed atm.

[Shaziro]

Do you think I messed up your reaction test by mentioning it too early, and if so is that just in this one case or was that too fast in general?

[Shaziro]

My problem with the Zakk vote is that I don't like that Shotty is on it, as I'm not really liking Shotty for town this game.

[Shaziro]

Couldn't decide if it was a bus, scum trying to find a potential other scum team, or scum on town. Fair enough, but I'm gonna leave a heavy

Finger of Suspicion: Nosferatu

for now.

VOTE: Zakk

[Shaziro]

I reserve the right to go back to Nos at any time if that wagon gains more serious legs.

[Shaziro]

I don't recommend taking things in the game personally. Seems that's where most of the big arguments are long-term grudges form, from what I've read, and I don't like seeing that kind of thing.

[Shaziro]

Lowell's scumhunting feels genuine, though obviously I don't agree with his case on me. I can understand where he's coming from, despite him being wrong.

I didn't like shotty's fake dayvig, honestly, as I don't really think "reaction tests" like that are ever effective and it seems like noise. He made a point of doing the "*comes in, sees people I don't like, leaves*" post. That honestly just seems like trying to make a joke about the fact that he is lurking, despite having been called out for being detached from the game. I think you could easily be on a scumteam with him, partly because of your early interaction with him like when you threw in the "You can't vote you're dead" thing. Yes, it was a joke, and I'm sure I'll be told that I'm "reaching and grabbing on to throwaway comments", but I do think that scum might be more likely to make jokes sided with their partners without thinking too much about it.

[Shaziro]

How is Cy not scummy as hell to you? If I felt like a vote on them wouldn't effectively be a wasted vote because for some reason nobody is voting that, I'd be all over them.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: shotty
@shaz, eh I've seen shotty so much worse. Other than the lingering thought that maybe we're being played with the whole shotty/irch double-tunneling thing, I don't really see too much scum here lately.

You either mean he's been much more obvious as scum, or he's lurked and made noise worse. In either case, I don't think that just because he's been worse, he can't be scum now. Honestly, I would expect people's scum games to get better over time, wouldn't you?

[Shaziro]

Yes, I am. Why should I believe you?

there is literally no reason to trust me. but you should anyway.

as far as me being pro-town that should pretty much speak for itself. i protect the people i have town reads on and i try to lynch the people i think are scummy.

i kinda disregarded you as spam in the first few days of the game, and didn't really look back.

after i had to reshuffle things you came out pretty scummy because you're kinda hanging on the periphery, not being a heavyweight like me and titus and ETL and such, but still making a lot of posts and a lot of noise (which is something i do as scum)

ugh this was a town response!
VOTE: titus if it wasn't there.

Ok fine let's join together and lynch titus

Ok so I'm guessing these two are a scum team?

[Shaziro]

Because I think your reasons for assuming one another are town look fabricated and as an excuse to more openly work together without suspicion. The fact that you are both targeting Titus, who reads you both is scum and is very good at getting her scum reads axed ties it all together.

[Shaziro]

Also I love that when zakk's wagon got some legs, you switched off. Seems like you got nervous about bussing him.

[Shaziro]

Seems like you got nervous about bussing him.

[Shaziro]

"I want you both dead, so I am jumping off of the one of you that has traction in order to work -with- that one to get you".

[Shaziro]

I reserve the right to go back to Nos at any time if that wagon gains more serious legs.

Couldn't decide if it was a bus, scum trying to find a potential other scum team, or scum on town. Fair enough, but I'm gonna leave a heavy

Finger of Suspicion: Nosferatu

for now.

VOTE: Zakk

[Shaziro]

I am strongky considering a Shotty wagon instead right now.

I think zakk might be best first. If they -are- a team, it's possible that the one which makes a bigger show of defending the other is vanilla or a less useful PR, and wants to take the rope first. Then again, that could just be WIFOM logic.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: shotty
@shaz, eh I've seen shotty so much worse. Other than the lingering thought that maybe we're being played with the whole shotty/irch double-tunneling thing, I don't really see too much scum here lately.

You either mean he's been much more obvious as scum, or he's lurked and made noise worse. In either case, I don't think that just because he's been worse, he can't be scum now. Honestly, I would expect people's scum games to get better over time, wouldn't you?

I...guess? Is this an argument against meta-gaming entirely? I'm on board if it is, but I'm curious. I'm sure as shit not going to go back and ISO you, but if ever you referenced another game as a reason so-and-so means so-and-so, I call you a hypocrite, sir.

No, I've definitely used meta, but I tend to prefer to look for either things that I can see as a trend that hasn't changed, which tends to be a specific aspect of a person's personality, or things that are very recent so it isn't likely they've changed. Your "I've seen shotty so much worse" comes off as more of a "I played a game a while back" kind of thing, and what I was saying is that it's entirely possible that over the time between that game and now, he has gotten better at hiding his scum game. You didn't give a link, so I was left to give that weird sort of "you mean something like this, right? Either way, stuff changes" response.

Hey I made a vote count by ripping the last one and updating it enjoy!

Spoiler:

zakk (4) - Lowell, Titus, Shaziro, Ircher
Nosferatu (1) - Aneninen
Aneninen (2) - projectmatt, Nahdia
Titus (2) - cytheflyguy, drmyshottyiszik
Lowell (1) - zakk
Kop (1) - copper223
Shaziro (1) - Ircher
drmyshottyiszik (1) - Kop

Not voting (7) - Liger_zero, MagnaOfIllusion, Expedience, Egg, Nosferatu

With 17 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch someone.

(expired on 2016-06-21 09:44:00) remain until day end.

MagnaOfIllusion is V/LA until June 11.

[Shaziro]

Then it is beneficial to your win condition to prove you are town. It is beneficial to -everyone here- to prove that they are town, which is why saying "nah I don't wanna" is scummy.

[Shaziro]

I'm not here to defend Titus, but I have reason to believe that isn't a concern, Cy.

[Shaziro]

Also yes shotty I accept your offer

Vote: Titus

"Hey, at least she's better than trump"

I'm getting v tired of this game
V annoyed at 4 deaths and no scum flips

This seems like an appeal to emotion, trying to get people to play you way. If you are genuinely not having fun, I'm sorry you aren't having fun.

[Shaziro]

My point is why is he taking the time to defend you as well? He is trying to protect you.

Hi, I'm catching up right now. When I saw you do the "US? Who is your partner?" thing, I thought you were making a joke about the idea that you're grasping at straws. This is you saying it wasn't a joke. You just proved Copper's point. If you don't get the rope today, I know you should get it tomorrow.

[Shaziro]

@copp and zakk, ya'll ain't lynching me. move along.

why are you including copper in this

Especially given that, when called out for not including you, Lowell (whether it was on purpose or not, IDK. I think it might've been a mistake that he's for some reason trying to call a reaction test now? I don't know why town would lie about that either), he called you town.

[Shaziro]

My point is why is he taking the time to defend you as well? He is trying to protect you.

Hi, I'm catching up right now. When I saw you do the "US? Who is your partner?" thing, I thought you were making a joke about the idea that you're grasping at straws. This is you saying it wasn't a joke. You just proved Copper's point. If you don't get the rope today, I know you should get it tomorrow.

No, he proved my point. Copper reads such interactions as genuine.

I think that's what I meant. I was pretty tired when reading that wall of Vote Analysis.

I feel like copper was trying to help town? I don't know how helpful it will be, to be honest. I know I can't quite chew through it well to get to his point. I would be interested to see a normal reads list of his though.

[Shaziro]

...Kop -was- missing. What's your reason behind that, copper?

[Shaziro]

btw if this is multiball 90% sure there's a representative of every scum team in the hood, so we should be looking for scum in the hood, not the scum in the hood.

Is this a balance thing, or a ~reasons~ thing?

[Shaziro]

btw if this is multiball 90% sure there's a representative of every scum team in the hood, so we should be looking for scum in the hood, not the scum in the hood.

Is this a balance thing, or a ~reasons~ thing?

It's a "I've played in a large game with a neighbourhood before"

Ah, Option C, an ~experience~ thing. I'll actually give you some town points for that.

Also, is the Zakk wagon just dying? If so, I don't want to push Nos just yet, but I don't know that PM is super scummy either. Shotty might be the best target in my mind. Thoughts?

[Shaziro]

Because I'd rather not mislynch 3 times in a row and lose like my first game, to be honest. I thought I was doing well until we lost big time, and I don't wanna make that mistake again. The "Right now" was not a "let's wait until later to push that" it was a "now they're looking null and I was potentially wrong, so I'm gonna leave that be".

[Shaziro]

Well see, the mistake I made was thinking that a very major slip/tell/whatever that a scum had made wasn't as big as I thought it was. I was convinced of this by his scum partner, who I had pegged for town. I'm trying to improve my hunting and reasoning, so I'm genuinely sorry if I do a poor job of it.

[Shaziro]

...You developed scum reads day 1 and they haven't evolved at all? Where have I heard that before...

[Shaziro]

Nos, can I get a reads list from you? Don't feel like you have to include everyone, I mostly want a current look at who you think is most scummy and who you think is most towny.

[Shaziro]

I've seen a lot of town coming from both of them. Can you make a case on each one in turn for me to look at? I'm thinking you're town-ish too, so I'd like to see your reasons.

[Shaziro]

Doesn't have to have any quotes if that's not how you play, just give some good reasons and I can look for the quotes myself. I just need somethin' to go on other than "I don't like 'em, kill 'em dead"

[Shaziro]

Seth's ISO (part of Kop's ) is really bugging me right now.

I'd also prob. be able to see that I see a pretty strong association between him and Copper.....

What part of it?

[Shaziro]

So mostly Seth? He was off to me too but I was told he was just a troll account.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: cytheflyguy

I think this is scum. Looked through his ISO and I can't get a read that says town. And that vote seems more opportunistic than a genuine vote.

Here's an opportunistic vote. And whoa do I know opportunistic votes.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: kop

Still happy to vote zakk if we can. But since it's going nowhere, here's another idea. This reads very much like "shit who can I find who is a plausible vote, but not a current bandwagon, and isn't likely to come back at me." Even the way it is worded "I can't get a read that says town" is equivocal as whoa. It looks vaguely like coaching, but I don't think it is. I think just kop is scum.

Are you thinking that Kop was trying to pull people off of Zakk's wagon because they're town? I just woke up so I'm trying to take all this stuff in.


Also, Shotty, somebody already said that if you are on a very small scum team, you are likely to assume it is multiball. That is how you would "know", assumedly.

[Shaziro]

Magna, I asked you a question, need it repeated?

[Shaziro]

Wow. Want to know how tired I am? I asked Lowell a question and thought I was quoting you. I may as well ask you too though, do you think a Zakk/Shotty team is likely?

[Shaziro]

...but that is something that somebody else actually said though. I think a few people have said it, in fact. I answered a question, and to say that means I'm trying to call...whoever said that scum would assume it's multiball if they are on a small team, I guess? Trying to call them scum? I'm not getting the leap there honestly.

[Shaziro]

Responding to somebody calling question to something I said is scummy? I don't understand that logic either, to be honest. This comes off more as you trying to latch on to something I've said being questioned in order to discredit the fact that I think you're scummy.

[Shaziro]

There's a difference between thinking that you're scum and thinking that a wagon on you right now will work, and a vote on a wagon that isn't going anywhere is -also- not going anywhere. I do have people I want to push, those people being my scumreads. You know, get a wagon on somebody who you feel is scum, get them to claim, lynch them if you don't believe the claim or somebody counterclaims. Why is that scummy?

[Shaziro]

I felt it was a bit scummy at first because I can understand the fear of a no-lynch, but when he said he just didn't want to "draw things out" it came off as him wanting to shut down conversation and just get a lynch through, which I don't tend to like seeing. Does that make sense?

I'll say that Egg's notes look pretty fair, and I'm seeing a lot of town motivation for them. Hopefully, though, Egg will get caught up soon and we'll see some realtime responses/reactions.

[Shaziro]

jumping ship fuck this

And this was a scummy reaction to that claim. (I'll elaborate it if needed.)

That wasn't a reaction to a claim, shotty posted that all over the site anywhere he was fairly active. He was jumping ship from the whole site. Check his Recent Posts.


I'm gonna do a once-over again on Seth and Kop, but I'm probably about to put a vote there.

[Shaziro]

So right now I'm thinking Ircher is trying to avoid answering questions, which I hate. I think it would be worth wagoning Kop, because I don't like that Seth's awful scumminess is getting slipped past as "Oh he's just a troll", and if he flips scum I'm going to be looking fairly hard into the people who were trying that excuse to be honest. Kop hasn't done anything that really improves his image to me (Including a roleclaim this early), so
VOTE: Kop

[Shaziro]

The fact it's 2-Shot further suggests its a scum commuter.

Why?

This is scum Copper protecting scum Kop.

[Shaziro]

I did. First you tried to avoid answering by shouting "SCUM BUDDY", then you gave an answer with no explanation, then at being pushed even more you tried to just argue that the modifier makes it more likely to be scum. That is very much you avoiding giving an answer, when it takes you that long to give one to a fairly simple question, and could easily be you trying to think up a reason while you stall.

[Shaziro]

Ircher. You literally -didn't- provide a reason to start. Then, you gave a "It's more likely because power levels" answer, without explaining that either. -Then- you explained. I'm not misrepping, I'm stating that you took your sweet time finding a reason.

Zakk, that's actually a good point...

[Shaziro]

hey the kop wagon is actually happening. I'm a trend-setter. You're welcome, world.

Kop (6) - Expedience, Lowell, Ircher, MagnaOfIllusion, Nosferatu, Aneninen

Likely scum pushed wagon

projectmatt (2) - cytheflyguy, copper223

Likely reason why the Kop wagon picked up steam now and not yesterday when it made a bunch more sense.

Titus (2) - zakk, drmyshottyizsik
zakk (2) - Titus, Shaziro

Likely town screwing up and cross OMGUSING each other.

copper223 (1) - Nahdia
Aneninen (1) - projectmatt

Likely scum waiting to see where the wind blows before moving from old wagons.

Not voting (1) - Egg

this is here to signal wtf are you doing.

Try to remember this snapshot of the game-state if I flip and/or if the players I am scum reading start flipping as expected.

VOTE: matt

I'm ready to buy him as scum. I read again and I'm worried I've grown too lenient on explaining away scum as newbtown. newbtown still applies to cy, though

I'm inclined to believe Kop claim as town. On the one hand, it's kind of a who-gives-a-shit role, as far as I can tell. However, everything about Kop's ISO looks like someone who has a claim that can bail them out and isn't so worried about a lynch because of it. I'm more inclined to think town would play this way. Frankly, I've done this. Had a good, clear, town claim and sort of pissed around most of the day knowing that if I got anywhere near mislynch I can just spout my claim and everyone will move on. I think that's what this is.

red

= what Lowell wants people to see as his reason for switching his vote

blue

= what i see.



lowell is scum.

[Shaziro]

That was just me changing the colors but I buggered it up. Red is what he saw, purple was the reason Lowell wants him to see. Not going to edit it again because spam.

[Shaziro]

Pedit: Sure, scum Qdodge too, but scum are often more careful. I'm most certainly am when I'm scum. Yes, I was thinking up a good answer, but that's cuz I say stuff like that without thinking.

-That- is a much more reasonable answer.

[Shaziro]

My biggest problem with it is that it was completely unsolicited. Wasn't even at L-1. It seems to me that he got really nervous of the wagon on him and wanted to throw some decoy flares out to distract and, if not get the wagon removed, give some time for scum to potentially daytalk and find a better escape plan.

[Shaziro]

I'm actually uncomfortable with that too...and I think you had a good point with 2290 too.

Also, what copper meant was in the scenario he was presenting, Titus was town. The whole scenario was "if we assume Titus is town", was it not?

UNVOTE:

[Shaziro]

What the votes say, assuming Titus is having a bad game and being used as a battering ram to take the heat, by scum:
Titus: town by definition in this world.

I was 100% ready to disagree with you, to show this quote and say "Oh, hey, see? Copper said 'assuming Titus is having a bad game and is being used by scum', so the point is that the base assumption was that Titus is town. I think that -was- the base assumption of the scenario...but Copper you offered to do the opposite scenario VCA, assuming Titus was scum. I don't see that anywhere. And you've had quite a bit. Care to explain?

[Shaziro]

I'm actually uncomfortable with that too...and I think you had a good point with 2290 too.

Also, what copper meant was in the scenario he was presenting, Titus was town. The whole scenario was "if we assume Titus is town", was it not?

UNVOTE:

Please don't leave a wagon just cuz.

I understand we all have conflicting top scumreads, but we got less than a week left in D2, and while I can compromise on Lowell and Copper right now, I think it's better we lynch the scumread most of us hold in commmon: Kop.

It might prove difficult to find support for another wagon.

Just unvoted because the wagon was dead and I knew I wanted to change it, just wasn't sure where to. Honestly the Kop wagon seems like the best one, but I'm gonna hold my vote until I've got a bit more spare time to re-read stuff. Consider my vote there for all intents and purposes, though, as that's what I'll be voting if nothing changes too drastically.

[Shaziro]

I did. First you tried to avoid answering by shouting "SCUM BUDDY", then you gave an answer with no explanation, then at being pushed even more you tried to just argue that the modifier makes it more likely to be scum. That is very much you avoiding giving an answer, when it takes you that long to give one to a fairly simple question, and could easily be you trying to think up a reason while you stall.

He's voting the same person as you so what's the problem?

Because if something pings me as scummy, I'm going to call it out. If it means they are buzzing, awesome, if it means they are trying to roll with a mislynch, that'll get sorted and stopped if we realize that's their goal, and if not its just more rope to hang them, right? Did I miss some mafia theory thing here?

Also,
VOTE: Kop

[Shaziro]

Wow, I didn't realize when I unvoted that I was on Kop. I thought I was unvoting off of Zakk. I really have had too much on my plate lately! Copper, can you explain your scumread on Nahdia? You may have done so already, but I either missed it or don't remember it.

[Shaziro]

Alrighty then! Nos, apologies for misreading you. I get the feeling I've been misled at this point, and I can drop a vote now but I'd rather have the night to look over interactions and reconsider thoughts. I've been busy all day working on Father's Day stuff, or I'd say I'd have it done later tonight.

[Shaziro]

Bugger it, I've got some tea in myself so I'm a bit more awake. I feel like I was sheeping too much, and now I know that at least one person I was fairly ok with following was scum. I think Seth's slot may well be town, because of the blow-up at Anen. It didn't seem fake, but I assumed it was mad scum yelling at town. I want to hear from Lowell about why he's playing dumb like that when I believe somebody said he's been around for quite a while and therefore should know better. I've been around for a very short time, but I still know that self-proclaimed "lolhammer"s are awful. Also, I want to see something from earlier...another quick post incoming, once I match a name to a quote.

[Shaziro]

Yeah, so someone should vig Copper prob. if we don't lynch him.

Here's the quote. So this is you suggesting that somebody should off Copper, and he flipped town tonight. You were wrong, and were directing PRs to an incorrect target. The reason, I assume, was that I brought up that he never did the "If Titus is scum" half of his big analysis thing. That is what he agreed was bad just before painting a target on copper. Now, Copper may've been a scum kill and he may have been a town kill, we don't know. But we do know that Ircher put the target there. What's up with that, Ircher?

[Shaziro]

...D'oh

Can you tell it's been a long day yet?

[Shaziro]

I'll have better reads on Titus, Zakk, Nos (though I am fairly sure this is town), and Ircher in the AM, especially once Ircher answers me.

[Shaziro]

Alright so looking back at Titus and Ircher's interactions, I could see that being distancing. It looks like Ircher was going along with Titus, and Titus didn't mind and was defending Ircher, but the moment somebody mentioned it Titus switched into hardcore "NOPE DEFINITELY NOT LINKED TO THIS PERSON SHHHHH" mode. Ircher tried to explain things, and Titus slammed on the gas again. Even with daytalk, I can see them definitely wanting to show everybody that distance between them and drive a hard wedge in that thought. That's not looking good. Ircher, the scum motivation for directing town PRs to a town target would be eliminating town, and eliminating the odds that a town PR kills you or your scumbuddy. That should be blatantly obvious to you, and asking me to "show you the scum motivation" in that is ridiculous. What's the current Vote Count looking like?

[Shaziro]

And that makes me think Zakk might be town. Because he was dead on the money if that is right. I definitely sheeped too much, partly because of being intimidated by the size of the thread, partly because I was busy in other things. Let's fix that. Soon as I get a VC, I'll drop a vote somewhere, and we can kick into high gear.

[Shaziro]

You're assuming that I'm going to vote -you-, and not the person that I have been talking about so far. That's just defensiveness. I also didn't say you were coaching, I said he was sheeping you and you defended him. Those are objectively true things that happened. It is also objectively true that, after people brought it up, you started distancing hard, telling him to do his own thing. We know that scum had daytalk, so you wouldn't have to be coaching him. But he would be following you, and you defending him, if you were coaching him in a daytalking PT. Which is exactly what we've seen.

[Shaziro]

If you are scum, then you know that they are not alligned with you. This means they are either scum that wants you dead if multiball, or town. Given the number of kills, I believe we're assuming multiball (multiball being scum vs scum vs town or scum vs SK vs town etc, right?). Either way, if you are scum, you know that they aren't on your side, and want them dead.

[Shaziro]

Because I can't see any good town motivation for the way you acted.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: Lowell

Yeah, this is scum.

[Shaziro]

if no vig CC's Lowell, I'm gonna assume he's either real or they're planning on shooting Lowell tonight.

UNVOTE:

which is why you should vote titus not lowell. if he's scum it'll work itself out.

If we aren't voting Lowell, then Titus or Ircher should go up. Do you think Titus would be a better lynch for information?

[Shaziro]

Why are

you

saying that Shaz given your day 2 admissions?

I've already made my case against you and Ircher. Lowell looks scummy as hell now too. If we're waiting to see if Lowell gets vigshot, then I think you and Ircher are the best choices for a lynch. Which one is a more important lynch is entirely based on which would give us the most information based on their flip, but I'm not good at figuring that out, so I'm asking others.

[Shaziro]

So why are you engaging in that bullshit rather than scumhunting?

This would be you trying to ignore the fact that I -am- scumhunting, probably because the scum I found were you and Ircher. Claiming I'm not scumhunting won't stop people from seeing that I -did- catch you two out, or stop the wagons on you, so this is a really bad discredit attempt. Sorry.

[Shaziro]

@Zakk, 3 kills in a night

strongly suggests

a vig no?

100% yes

however, caveat:

if by some thing there are 2 scum teams and an SK

and if town has more blocky-healy-protecty type powers to counter-act balance stuff

then SK could easily claim vig and get away with it




another reason why it's

not

good to speculate and lynch due to speculation, however

still is good

to speculate, and figure out what may be happening, and decide to

let things resolve themselves

based on proper evaluation of said speculation, and educated guesses based on what might be the proper course of action





and let me know where i lost you, because i'm sure i did, yea?

SK claims vig putting a target on his back to both factions and you would call that easy to get away with? That serves no purpose for an SK whatsoever.

You're trying to speculate to remove ways of town recognizing each other and that's not cool.

So why did you choose to ignore the part where he specifically said that, in that case, town would have blocky-healy powers to counterbalance? In that case, town would be more likely to protect the SK who was claiming vigilante, because they consider them conftown. You're now misrepresenting him too. You're flailing.

UNVOTE: Lowell
VOTE: Titus

[Shaziro]

I heard you. Problem is, that sounds like Titus is a scum PR and you want her to use her ability another time.

[Shaziro]

I heard you. Problem is, that sounds like Titus is a scum PR and you want her to use her ability another time.

Another time? You crumbed pretty hard that you role blocked me night 1.

Uh...no I didn't? I haven't crumbed roleblocker at all, because I'm not one.

[Shaziro]

I think I've been consistent?

I believe his problem is that you went Ircher instead of Titus.

[Shaziro]

Now you're rolefishing. No, I'm not a jailkeeper. I wasn't crumbing, those weren't my ~reasons~. Interesting that you assumed they were though. Gonna need a minute to figure that all out, preliminary thoughts are that if you're town, you were worried you'd be a target on nights that you couldn't do whatever thing you need to do, so you wanted the defense. If your role is odd night and important enough that you need to not be blocked, that would mean it'd be bad to make you claim. If you're scum, obviously you just wouldn't want to be blocked on nights when you can do your thing, whatever that may be.

[Shaziro]

I did explahy I couldn't say my ~reasons~, that it would be bad for town. Now you're pushing for something bad for town, and rolefishing, and flailing. Christ alive.

[Shaziro]

EBWOP: Explain Why*


P-edit: You're -still- fishing after I called it out? Lol.

[Shaziro]

You're assuming that you knew my reasons. You're assuming that you know what's going on in my mind. That's just dumb, to be honest.

[Shaziro]

I mean, seriously. "YOU CLAIMED THIS ROLE" "No, I didn't. That's not what I was suggesting at all, in fact, you're wrong" "BUT YOU CLAIMED THIS ROLE".

[Shaziro]

Christ alive, Ircher, I've made it very clear that it is bad for town for me to explain it. You're either scum who actively wants town to suffer, or just a VI who can't accept that he's wrong. Either way, I'm not explaining more than I already have, so stop fishing.

[Shaziro]

You've decided I was claiming a role. I've made it clear that no, that's not what I was doing. You're refusing to believe that for no other reason than what appears to be an inability to accept that your assumption was wrong. I'm done with this. Vote me if you want, hell, make an actual case and you can lynch me, but I'm not elaborating more. When I've made it clear that it'd be bad for town and you're still pushing it, I'm done trying.

[Shaziro]

Clearly, Titus, it wasn't obvious to me. Again, I'm done here. The two of you are either just absolutely refusing to accept that you're wrong by a mile, or you're trying to get any information you can for your scumbuddies. I'm done.

[Shaziro]

I don't have much to comment as of lately. Been busy.
I would be okay with a Ircher wagon as of lately reading his posts.

Elaborate on this when you get the time please, hoping to see something new rather than repetition of stated reasons, even if it's just pointing out tone.

[Shaziro]

So, Shaz-Zakk-??? team

And who else? Perhaps pmatt, he hasn't been very useful tbh.

4. would the ??? not be aneninen? you know, the flipped scum?

So let's talk about this point, and the fact that it suggests that Ircher -knows- that if Zakk and I were a team, Anen wouldn't be on it. Odds it's because Anen was on he and Titus' team, probably high. Odds them having daychat therefore explains why he was sheeping Titus' votes and Titus was defending him up until somebody mentioned it, and then she tried to hard distance in thread to break that notion? Probably high. The fact that they both got real quiet once it was mentioned? Probably means they were hoping it'd be forgotten. I am perfectly comfortable in my vote at the moment.

[Shaziro]

With Titus' whole thing about me "crumbing Roleblocker", you people can't see the forest for the trees. I refuse to believe that Titus, at the bare minimum, has no clue what she's doing. Re-read the conversation, Magna. I have no clue what MoIputer is, but actually give it a read and think about it without thinking about what Titus has said, as she's very, very wrong.

[Shaziro]

Sorry, missed that being a question to me. I don't know how setups work to be balanced, my experience with Mafia has been a newbie game and Town of Salem, along with a weird offsite thing. Town having lots of protectives and scum having lots of kills makes sense for balance though, does it not? I would assume 2-3 people per Mafia team, one team at least obviously had day talk so would it make sense for both to have it, in that scenario?

[Shaziro]

I'm mobile posting from d&d night, I'll look over what you said more closely when I get home tonight Magna. I will say that yes, it makes sense, I need to crunch through it though. Also what the hell is a MoIputer? Just your name for your VCA?

[Shaziro]

I'm making fairly quick updates in my games and then heading off Mafiascum for the night. I'm tired as hell. I'll talk with y'all in the AM.

[Shaziro]

Why is everyone ignoring Shaz's bullshit?

My guess is that they actually went back under the assumption that you were wrong to humor me, re-read, and saw exactly where you got it twisted.

[Shaziro]

VOTE: zakk
that is a scum move man

I was going to do it and see what he was angling at, how is it scummy?

[Shaziro]

...I actually agree with Titus. I think I'm easier to lynch than Titus, just because Titus is apparently a very slippery lynch-dodgy kind of player, but even then...I don't like agreeing with Titus, especially after what honestly looks like her trying to push me to roleclaim and asserting her interpretation of what was said as absolute fact...Titus. Look back at that conversation, assume that I've been 100% honest and that I didn't realize you were crumbing odd night, what I've said I'm not, ETC. Try and figure out what I -was- saying. Look at my behavior. See if it makes sense. I bet it will.

[Shaziro]

...I'm sorry are you saying that calling you out for forgetting that Kopslot is dead is a misrep? Like, I missed that too earlier...but that's not what a misrep is, if that is what you are saying.

[Shaziro]

You said that Kop needed to stop lurking. Kop was dead. I don't think anybody was particularly suspicious of it...but you getting this defensive over it has me suspicious, to be honest.

[Shaziro]

I'm seeing him as townish now, to be real with you. Especially in his talking about where he was right and where he was wrong. I definitely don't think if he was scum with an encryptor, he would have effectively gotten it called out and brought to surface. It's possible that he's on a scum team against another team, and wanted to see if they had one when his team didn't, but I'm thinking town. Why are you preferring an Ircher lynch over Titus? What do you think about him outright saying "Lynch me first instead of Titus" knowing that Titus has claimed odd-night now?

[Shaziro]

I'll do that. I've been mostly skipping past you posts because I'm not a fan of your perpetual catching up. I'm waiting for your big wrap-up.

[Shaziro]

Egg I need you to explain why him saying to shoot him first looks town, and couldn't be him trying to ensure that Titus gets to use her odd-night power again. I'm willing to be wrong here, but nobody has actually made a point as to -why- they think it is wrong.

[Shaziro]

Which honestly just reaffirms to me the idea that you are partners and he wants to defend you but you want him to distance. Don't want to go down with the ship mentality, that.

[Shaziro]

Titus I genuinely don't believe you could be missing the point at this point, I think you're scum being deliberately obtuse. You're better than this, from what I've heard.

[Shaziro]

You're going in with the assumption that I am lying and not that you may have latched onto the wrong ~reasons~.

[Shaziro]

You're still being obtuse. You -can- be wrong, you know.

[Shaziro]

Because the actual solution is much more simple.

[Shaziro]

No.

Why not?

Two reasons, the first of which is that I don't feel like you'd claim like that. The second is for ~reasons~ that would be bad for town to be outed atm.

I did explahy I couldn't say my ~reasons~, that it would be bad for town. Now you're pushing for something bad for town, and rolefishing, and flailing. Christ alive.

Christ alive, Ircher, I've made it very clear that it is bad for town for me to explain it. You're either scum who actively wants town to suffer, or just a VI who can't accept that he's wrong. Either way, I'm not explaining more than I already have, so stop fishing.

You've decided I was claiming a role. I've made it clear that no, that's not what I was doing. You're refusing to believe that for no other reason than what appears to be an inability to accept that your assumption was wrong. I'm done with this. Vote me if you want, hell, make an actual case and you can lynch me, but I'm not elaborating more. When I've made it clear that it'd be bad for town and you're still pushing it, I'm done trying.

It. Would be. Bad. For Town. I have said this time and time again, and if you can't accept that, it's fine, but I'm not going to say more than that, and pushing for me to do so is anti-town as hell.

[Shaziro]

Bad for town is your conclusion. That's just circular as fuck shit. I'm town. Don't push my shit because I'm town and I say it's bad for town. Therefore it's bad for town.

If that's true, SCUM already know so there's no harm in telling me. If it's not true, it's a defense you're hiding behind to refuse to explain why you lied/crumbed the wrong role.

If you're really town, then it's important to get town work together rather than this anti-town bullshit you've spewed since Day 1.

Or, scum don't know, and they're being just as hardheaded as you. WIFOM for you is WIFOM for them too, especially if you are scum like I expect you are. Get over it.

[Shaziro]

You're ignoring that there is a much more simple answer.

[Shaziro]

You're ignoring that there is a much more simple answer.

I am not ignoring it. I am asking you to say it.

Nah, there's no wagon on Shaziro. He doesn't need to claim just so you can understand what he meant.

And he wouldn't need to if the solution is simple.

I caught him in a lie and cannot gt a wagon. Don't you think if he was town at least a couple scum would wagon him?

"CLEARLY HE IS SCUM, NOBODY IS VOTING HIM!"

Well, I guess that means that we have 8 scum. Awful logic.

[Shaziro]

So you're going cosmic coincidence?

Titus. If you were town, by now you would realize that this is going literally nowhere and might even realize that you probably don't know what you're talking about (I don't take you for somebody who is so conceited as to not be able to see that they can be wrong and look for alternate answers without demanding them be outed publicly when you've been told that would be bad for town), and would be looking elsewhere for now with the intention to come back to this later. Even if you do think I'm lying, even if you do think I'm scum, you cannot possibly think I'm the only scum in this game. Why are you slamming your head against this wall, intent on acting to the detriment of town just so there isn't something you don't know, instead of scumhunting?

[Shaziro]

I'm not going back down this conversation, Titus. You are wrong. Go find where you went wrong like an adult, or accept that you don't know yet, and get to hunting some actual scum instead of throwing a fit because you were wrong and I won't detriment town just to satisfy you.

[Shaziro]

I keep trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, you keep acting scummy. You haven't changed my mind and are just shouting more and more that you're definitely town and you deserve to know. I've told you more than o probably should have because I fell for your role fishing. I'm done. Either re-read me and find some way to prove that you are town, or I'm happy with you being today's lynch.

P-edit- oh look, town!egg

[Shaziro]

If you can't prove that I am wrong and you are town, then I think you are scum. You're misrepresenting what I'm saying in order to make me sound unsure or opportunistic. I'm being very straightforward.

[Shaziro]

I'm not going back down this conversation, Titus. You are wrong. Go find where you went wrong like an adult, or accept that you don't know yet, and get to hunting some actual scum instead of throwing a fit because you were wrong and I won't detriment town just to satisfy you.

[Shaziro]

Suspecting me is scummy.

On the other hand, does stuff like this EVER come from scum?

Who has Titus scum meta for me to read?

Believe this was her trying to mock me.

[Shaziro]

@Magna, I usually do it on Day 4. I have Ben wanting to do it sooner but I am in a why bother wasting my time in a thread full of people who treat me like a child to be ignored mood.

"Do this thing that's bad for town to satisfy me or I won't act like town." Is scummy as hell. Magna, I'm liking egg for town in this honestly, now that he is caught up.

[Shaziro]

Magna, I'm liking egg for town in this honestly, now that he is caught up.

Let me guess - it is because he Town reads you, right?

Nope, because instead of hopping on Titus' failtrain he has told her to chill the hell out in a manner I find pro-town.

[Shaziro]

Christ's sake, Titus, I didn't mean claim when I said do something town-ish.

UNVOTE: Titus

Alright, I'm gonna need some time to re-evaluate shit. Not sure what this means for my Ircher read if it's true, to be honest, because a chunk of it was based on his interactions with you. There's no way he could've known your role and wanted to buddy you on Day 1, right?

[Shaziro]

Titus. It is still bad for town for what I was talking about to be revealed, and it would be if you were a modconfirmed town just the same. It's nothing to do with -you- knowing meaning it's bad for town, it's -scum- knowing, and even if that claim is totally legit and you are what you say (which I as of yet don't disbelieve), scum are still in this game. I'll say one thing (if only to get you to do something more productive), and that is to look more specifically at my wording. I never said I knew you didn't kill anyone.

[Shaziro]

Tell you what. I'll explain, in full, my ~reasons~ next day phase. But we've got to get there. How sure are we that Nos is scum? I'm honestly not seeing it so much anymore.

[Shaziro]

I like Egg's caught-up posts, and I believe I'm on the record as saying that I wasn't a fan of the eternal catch-up routine. I've explained what I think of his recent posts when MoI tried to discredit my read on him by suggesting that it was only because he was townreading me. As for the case on Nos, the most convincing thing I've seen is projectmatt's reposting of his previously stated case, but even that just has me unsure. I'm more convinced of Ircher at this point, but I don't think that is happening. Nos, if your lynch is a mislynch, who do you think is pushing it/being opportunistic about it? (I realize this is assuming he is town, I'm giving a hypothetical.)

[Shaziro]

i dont know why shaz liked egg's catchup posts but i'll jsut say that i agree with shaz on them bc i'm too lazy to come up with a reason i like them.

I said caught-up posts, not the catchup ones. The infinite catching up was somewhat scummy to me, but now that he is up to date I have liked his recent posts.

[Shaziro]

Imp isn't in this game either.

[Shaziro]

Imp isn't in this game either.

[Shaziro]

I explained that my nos scumread died at the start of this game, it's nothing to do with him town reading me. You're attempting to make up associatives when there are none there. Gross.

[Shaziro]

Start of this day*

[Shaziro]

An associative is saying that two people are connected, isn't it?

[Shaziro]

Yeesh, I apparently used the wrong word, chill. You appear to be trying to link Nos and I with false information. You did the same with Egg. I've explained why I townread both of them, and you're electing to ignore that to push your narrative.

[Shaziro]

That was to Magna, not you.