Newbie 1717: Newbies Through the Looking Glass (Game Over)

[snoe]

'Sup y'all - gimme a little time to catch up please

[snoe]

UNVOTE: unvote
Thanks Acct. Everyone, I'll have thoughts/vote in about 11 hours - gotta sleep. We did get 48 hours extension.

[snoe]

Hi everybody … this game is a lot more complicated than it looked when I checked it out after Pants’s first prod-dodge. Sorry it took me so long to go through it.

I’ll start with my vote, explained in my reads below:
VOTE: postie

Here are my reads:

Town leaning:
Harkonnen (Meepo): Meepo’s posts stink of sincere newbie town, and Harkonnen has added to that impression.
Grace: Biggest point against her is relative inactivity. Come back, Grace!
Simoyd: over-reaching on his reads on Meepo and Accountant, but I see it as sincere efforts to solve the game.

Conflicted:
Accountant vs. RC:
Overall, I think Accountant has contributed to the town game and RC has not. However, Accountant has also done some things I don’t like. 1) Aggressive play against newbies (Meepo and Grace) mixed in with IC statements during page 1-2. 2) Post 114, claiming they haven’t done any reaction tests. If that’s a sarcastic response, fine. But later responses suggest it’s a straight claim, and it seems false to me. Waiting for more from RC.

Lycan vs IV:
Lycan’s case against IV is based on IV’s page 2 post challenging the sudden serious turn during RVS, and IV’s responses to Lycan’s challenges. I agree with IV that it was weird to get so serious so fast. Scum hunting early on Day 1 is fine; it is weird for it to get so deep in the weeds with only a few players posting. I don’t think this was anyone’s “fault,” but the combo of Accountant’s aggressive play and newbie uncertainty made the dialogue focus on that more than was healthy.
Some of IV’s responses these challenges seem weak: post 52 (responding to Mizz), 262 (OMGUS read on Lycan).

Scum leaning:
Mizz/Postie: Sorry, Postie, you seem nice, but Mizz’s play seemed scummy to me. Especially posts 30 & 51 in early game; sheeping Acct in 81 & 82.

Finally, here are my notes on reading through the game. They are long - sorry. But I think it’s worth posting them because …
1) One of the few benefits of getting a replacement player is getting a new set of eyes looking at the game. Might help?
2) I need to give you all SOMETHING with which to read my slot. Pants, bless him … didn’t.
3) I usually phone post (meaning I don’t do giant formatted posts like this often) - would like to have this available when I’m on my phone.

Here are the notes - the spoiler sections each end with a vote count, except the last one:

#5-45:

Spoiler:

Posts 5-8: Innocent RVS play by Mizz and Meepo
Post 9: Accountant kicks off a bunch of hurt and confused reactions by challenging Meepo’s vote and Grace’s response. Good responses from Grace & Meepo as they figure out how Acct is playing, Good response from IV in #27 questioning the whole dialogue. Acct plays pretty hard. Don’t like #24 accusing Grace of lying.
(IMHO, it was kind of bad sportsmanship by Acct to mix aggressive play with IC-role posting, but YMMV on that; it turned out to be instructive, certainly.)
#30: post by Mizz that tries too hard. Mixes scattershot attacks with defensiveness. Don’t agree with the reaches in reasoning in the final synthesis paragraph.

8 - @Meepo, why the random vote on me, as opposed to anyone else? And if it's not a serious vote, why give a serious sounding reason for it? I personally like RVS wagons, it's one of the efficient ways to get out of it.

11 - @Grace, I was going after innocentvillager. I never implied Meepo was culpable for anything.

12 - @Accountant, why didn't you pick up on the above?

13 - You gave up the acting smart act quick. Generally i find people trying to look smart don't back down so easily. Sounds fake

16 - @Grace, is Meepo town?

18 - @Grace, seems to me more like you want us to think you aren't clever - or at least you've mentioned that more? Why?

20 - I read this as Accountant being intentionally overblown for reaction but thinking there was something potentially scummy there. The aim of silly voting is to get out of silly voting and into serious discussion.

21 - @Grace, Apart from missing that I never accussed Meepo of anything, Accountant seems calm and rational. What did you hope to gain from a made up case?

25 - @Grace, Is Accountant worried or agressive? These don't seem to naturally go hand in hand for me. And why should you have voted for someone who wouldn't have taken it seriously, what benefit does that have for town?

27 - @innocentvillager, Deadly. You have a problem with how the day has progressed so far?

28 - Sometimes it doesn't get serious this quick, but the quicker it does the better it is for town. To me wanting to move into serious stuff is a good thing. And attacking serious sounding made up cases is a good thing.

29 - @Meepo, you nervous if they aren't?


Don't like innocentvillager's post coming from an SE. Even if it's not his style of play I'd expect an SE to be aware this what start of day can look like. Not sure if Grace looks more like newbscum or newbtown, but she hasn't handled pressure well so I'm not that worried about sorting her in time. Main thing I don't like is someone who was supposedly starting this game trying to look clever keeps falling back on not being clever or on being new - that behaviour seems contradictory to me. Biggest thing making me think newbtown is a possibility is that I think newbscum is less likely to go for the IC, and scum in general is unlikely to admit they made everything up - though the latter is tempered by the fact she is using being new as a defence. Meepo is nullish - I would like to see more from him. Accountant looks like town scumhunting, with the caveat I'd be surprised if the IC looked like anything else this early in the game. Still, happy to go with Accountant as town for now until something questionable presents itself.

I think I will leave my vote where it is until we see more from innocentvillager, though I don't feel opposed to voting Grace. If this is what we get with some questioning and one vote, I'd love to see what happens with more.

Kicks off back and forth with IV and Grace about whether it’s normal for RVS to get so real so fast, plus back-and-forth with Meepo about some of Mizz’s points.
41: RC shows up, pokes Acct with a stick.

Vote Count 1.1

It’s no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.

Accountant

(2): Grace, RadiantCowbells

innocentvillager

(1): Mizzytastic

Mizzytastic

(1): Meepo

Grace

(1): Accountant

Not Voting

: Simoyd, Lycanfire, Pants98, innocentvillager

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 07:25:57)

Post 46-77

Spoiler:

#46: Lycan provides their take. Interesting that they see IV manipulating pace, as Mizzy said in #30. I disagree with both; it seems pretty natural to be surprised by the pivot into seriousness that Acct kicked off. But I don’t know IV’s meta and Lycan claims to.
51: Mizz pushes IV on not scum hunting yet; IV complains about the “noise” level in the game; IV’s response bugs me as fake:

Yeah but it was just so much so fast and sometimes games like this have a lot of noise that makes it annoying to read. It's foreshadowing that this is going to be an extremely long game, which I don't really like.

I'm like goldilocks and the three bitches. Too much activity and I sit back and skim like a bitch, too little activity and I'll fill the thread with bullshit, otherwise it's just right

#60: Pants shows up in my slot, votes RC with some inside joke. Simoyd shows up. Grace and Pants throw some shade. Sim throws shade back at Grace, Lycan. Calls out IV on his meta in #71. Really dislike posts 73-74 from Sim:

I am pretty sure

Deferring your certainty until it matters? Setting the stage for future slips?

there's not a whole lot of seriousness other than this. Not sure what else to ask.... I'm liking Grace and Meepo for scum right now... Meepo started it so...

VOTE: Meepo

I'm off to play with my oculus. I'll be back later tonight

I like Lycan’s response in 75 for tone.
76: Acct OMGUS votes RC

Vote Count 1.2

But I don’t want to go among mad people.
- Oh, you can’t help that, we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.

Accountant

(2): Grace, RadiantCowbells

innocentvillager

(2): Mizzytastic, Lycanfire

RadiantCowbells

(2): Pants98, Accountant

Mizzytastic

(1): Meepo

Meepo

(1): Simoyd

Not Voting

: innocentvillager

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 07:25:57)

Posts 78-

Spoiler:

78: Acct gives reads. Grace town, Meep scum, IV null, Mizz scum. Votes Mizz. Excellent post, except I do not see the case against Meepo at all.
81: Mizz responds with a half-sheep by switching vote to Meep. Also deflection to Grace as well with this BS “trying to look smart” business.
82: Mizz sheeps Acct’s criticism of Lycan’s use of meta.

Lycan, you seem to be relying a lot on meta. I dunno about IV but I know you've not seen my scum game because I've not seen my scum game. What makes you think this is town aggression and not just me aggression?

#84&85 are also bad pushes.
88: Meepo defends, 89 Acct accepts defense. Feels genuine both ways?
92: Lycan responds to Mizz/Acct, gives reads:

I was hoping to be pushed back by now. IV said he didn't have time to post much, left a low content post that I didn't like. I called it and he spoke about being burnt out and hasn't been helping us any since.

Town
Meepo

Lean Town
Accountant (IC)
Simoyd
RadiantCowbells (SE)

Null
Mizzytastic
Grace
Pants98 (SE)

Lean Scum

Scum
innocentvillager (SE)

97: Simoyd presses Mizz on post 81, Mizz defends pretty well in post 100, Sim pushes more in 101.
#102: Pants strikes again: pushes Mizz on pushing lycan on pushing IV using meta. Not one of our prouder moments, especially because Mizz kind of slid into that position by sheeping Acct.
#104: First long post from IV. Slight town reads on Lycan, Accountant, whoops there goes the town read on Lycan! Votes Lycan. IV kind of promised a lot and delivered a little with this post, but that’s NAI to me.
106: Lycan pushes back. Tone is sincere but there is some bad reasoning that smacks of tunneling.

You thought my first post was fine, ignore the premise, tunnel heavily on the meta portion to the point of giving me towncred, and then when I dismiss meta as primary motive you suddenly want to make it about metagaming again.

I never claimed "extensive meta research" on you. I claimed 1 town game of yours to 1 town game of Mizzy's, while skimming through your ISOs of other games to save time. I didn't need to compare a scum game to your town game to call your town game out of character here(to which you somewhat agreed). You were behaving more strangely than Mizzy, and that's why you're the one I placed my vote on. The moment you stopped posting was the moment I thought lean scum was too tame, because while waiting others did not cease accusing each other. Scum aren't in a hurry to contribute here if accused as each new post they aren't involved in offers opportunities. So, what about town? It would be in a townie's interest to make a meaningful post ASAP if they were the one being accused.

104: Acct pushes Lycan’s response

Vote Count 1.3

How do you know I’m mad?
- You must be, or you wouldn’t have come here.

Accountant

(2): Grace, RadiantCowbells

Mizzytastic

(2): Meepo, Accountant

Meepo

(2): Simoyd, Mizzytastic

innocentvillager

(1): Lycanfire

RadiantCowbells

(1): Pants98

Lycanfire

(1): innocentvillager

Not Voting

:

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 07:25:57)

Post 111-

Spoiler:

VOTE: Accountant

I consistently don't like the direction of your reads. I think you can only hide behind reaction testing for so long... Still a long time left for today so things might change, but you've definitely made my top scum read.

I've never done a single reaction test this entire game, and I don't know why people thought I did.

Okay, Sim’s scum reading based on disagreement, which … I disagree with, but Acct straight up shameless in response. Unless “reaction test” means something different than the obvious definition.
Then Sim ISOs Acct:

Accountant:

Post 9 looks like you might be bussing your partner, innocentvillager. You certainly don't think this is enough to wrap up the game. If not bussing, then is this a reaction test?

In post 12 through 26 you're tunneling really hard on Grace. I feel that post 13 and at the very latest post 16 clearly show her true colors, and continuing to tunnel seems to have yielded very little, if any value. I just get the impression that your motivation to tunnel was to keep up the bussing facade and not to find scum like town would.

How is post 76 not a reaction test? Why would town OMGUS (post 80)?

post 78 you flip around and write a pretty big section dedicated to not only defending innocentvillager, but trying to make people feel stupid for reading him badly. Why defend? Didn't he already basically say everything you said already, other than making other people feel stupid? And making people feel stupid like that isn't a reaction test how?

In the same post you also attack Mizzy, saying her post 30 is bad when 80% of it basically just looks like parroting of your own opinion earlier in the game, other than attacking your buddy innocentvillager. How is anyone expected to strike the heart of someone at this point? Why is jabbing and poking any different than what RC has done? Why no mention of that being bad for RC? So again, what is this then... reaction test? How do you differentiate between Mizzy appearing to look active and actually looking active at this point in the game?

For post 89 I think you're right and are trying to get RC to help you drive the town in the wrong direction. Since when does town ever ask someone to sheep them? AGAIN is this a reaction test? What is this? Why did you say this?

post 90: again defending innocentvillager. This seems to be a reoccuring theme...

post 98: for all the seriousness you've been portraying why say this? Maybe I'm missing something here. @Lycanfire: was post 99 serious?

post 103: Liking me is the obvious scum choice because I'm terrible at this game and obvious newb town. Attacking mizzie again for no good reason... I think the meepo wagon has really bottomed out and there's not really anything to push. This is besides the fact that I was voting meepo and not pushing either, but you like me?

post 105: I would like to see a detailed explaination on why you think that post seems nowbie townie and meaningful... I think IV is your buddy. You immidiatly respond positivly and defend him again in 107 the moment he's under fire... What is that!

Hm. Sim is missing humor in some of Acct’s posts or else I am wrong in finding them funny. Overall bad reads but the tone is townish. I think. This is a little cute: “post 103: Liking me is the obvious scum choice because I'm terrible at this game and obvious newb town. Attacking mizzie again for no good reason... I think the meepo wagon has really bottomed out and there's not really anything to push. This is besides the fact that I was voting meepo and not pushing either, but you like me?”

Then Acct in 124:

You certainly don't think this is enough to wrap up the game. If not bussing, then is this a reaction test?

It certainly was enough to wrap up the game if Meepo had been serious. But he later said he was joking.

I just get the impression that your motivation to tunnel was to keep up the bussing facade and not to find scum like town would.

I tunneled on Grace because I wasn't sure of her alignment yet. 13 and 16 may have been enough for you to determine her true colors, but it wasn't enough for me. People respond under pressure - that response shows me their alignment. Afterwards I townread Grace since her respond was townie.

Why would town OMGUS (post 80)?

Because I knew that RC's initial vote on me was just him playing games as usual, so I voted him back to show my displeasure. In addition, this was something of a placeholder vote, and after I completed my analysis I ended up voting Mizzy.

Why defend?

Because people were attacking him unreasonably and I wanted to put a stop to that.

And making people feel stupid like that isn't a reaction test how?

Please explain how my post made people feel stupid.

In the same post you also attack Mizzy, saying her post 30 is bad when 80% of it basically just looks like parroting of your own opinion earlier in the game

Indeed - just because someone is sheeping me doesn't mean that their posts are magically good.

How is anyone expected to strike the heart of someone at this point?

I don't expect Mizzy to strike at the heart of anyone. If she doesn't have something real to scumhunt, she be honest and say that she can't find any openings to question rather than trying to look good by jabbing aimlessly.

Why is jabbing and poking any different than what RC has done?

RC's meta isn't to jab and poke, it's to make naked votes and one liners or 20 pages and then jump on someone and deathtunnel them. In addition, I'm wary of trying to sort RC early because I find him difficult to read.

How do you differentiate between Mizzy appearing to look active and actually looking active at this point in the game?

I assume you meant actually "being" active here. My response is that the difference is the intent and direction of her questions. I don't see the pointedness and the "driving" that would lead me to believe she has a concrete idea of how each question helps to sort player alignments.

Since when does town ever ask someone to sheep them?

What is wrong with town asking someone to sheep them? To "sheep" someone means to follow their lead and vote who they vote - if a town member is confident they've found a good player to vote, they should want the rest of the town to vote with them.

again defending innocentvillager. This seems to be a reoccuring theme...

Of course I'm defending him. He's literally awol and people are rushing to jump down his throat.

Liking me is the obvious scum choice because I'm terrible at this game and obvious newb town.

Liking you is the obvious

town

choice, too. If you're obvious newb town, that means that I, as a town member, should want to read you as town.

This is besides the fact that I was voting meepo and not pushing either, but you like me?

I think you were doing this in a sort of clueless town way, rather than Mizzy's deceptive manner.

I would like to see a detailed explaination on why you think that post seems nowbie townie and meaningful...

You misunderstand. IV, in his post, questioned why I townread Meepo. I said that Meepo as a whole seemed genuine.

I think IV is your buddy. You immidiatly respond positivly and defend him again in 107 the moment he's under fire... What is that!

Why do you think that me defending IV means that we both have to be scum together? That's a ridiculous line of thinking. All town would defend another player who they feel to be unfairly attacked, which IV was. My actual read on IV is nullish, so anyone who reads him otherwise is either seeing something I don't(unlikely, since there's nothing much to see from 1 post and some V/LA declarations) or outright wrong.

In Conclusion

I feel that your erroneous scum read on me is due to a number of misunderstandings about my play and horrible misconceptions about how town should react. Your logic and hasty pre-flip associatives are bad and do not hold in the face of closer examination. You also seem to fundamentally misunderstand the point of many of my posts, like declaring them to be reaction tests when they're anything but. In the light of this, there can be no further reason to suspect I am scum.

This actually kinda stinks. Taking Sim’s half-baked ideas seriously? Saying that you were seriously tunneling Grace on page 1 of the game? I hope this is like high-level sarcasm.
125: IV sees 124 like I did.
126: Acct plays it cool. IDK. Then pushes Mizz in 128.

Vote Count 1.4

Begin at the beginning, and go on till you come to the end: then stop.

Accountant

(3): Grace, RadiantCowbells, Simoyd

Mizzytastic

(2): Meepo, Accountant

Meepo

(1): Mizzytastic

innocentvillager

(1): Lycanfire

RadiantCowbells

(1): Pants98

Lycanfire

(1): innocentvillager

Not Voting

:

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 07:25:57)

{/spoiler]

Spoiler:

130: Lycan suspects Acct’s “defend IV so hard”; this is really stretching
Pants takes Acct to L-1 in 132 without saying anything. Takes deserved shit from Acct, Meepo, Lycan, IV.
148: IV pushes back on IC’s response to Sim in 124.
155: RC hits Acct again with nothing. “Note that Accountant hasn't said anything to me.” Well, there was not much to respond to.
156-163: Lycan and Sim push Acct more
164: Acct makes a good response

I don't like his newest post#154 because it sounds like a "validate my scumread" post.

If Grace goes "hey Mizzy is obvtown" and lists a bunch of reasons wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of it?

Does scumAccountant have anything to lose at this point?

scum!Accountant has quite a lot to lose. The wagon on me was dead in the water after Grace backed off; like you said, nobody was applying a lot of pressure. It makes no sense to characterize this as a desperate move.

168-179: lot of back-and-forth between Sim and Acct. Acct is making stronger cases, but there is a coolness of tone that seems forced.

Vote Count 1.5

Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.

Accountant

(3): RadiantCowbells, Simoyd, Pants98

Mizzytastic

(2): Meepo, Accountant

Meepo

(1): Mizzytastic

innocentvillager

(1): Lycanfire

Pants98

(1): innocentvillager

Not Voting

: Grace

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 07:25:57)

Prodding

Pants98

and

Meepo

.

181-187 more of same
188: grace returns, sincere-sounding reads
194-199: back-and-forth between RC, Acct, and Lycan about RC’s relatively low interactions. Acct challenges Lycan’s challenge of RC. Possible that Lycan was sheeping Grace’s scum read on RC, Acct is challenging that”
203: Postie replaces Mizz, says Acct needs rope. Reason:

Because you began the day by immediately pushing a load of contrived-sounding terribleness to advocate for a lynch on obvtown.

Agree that Acct’s aggressiveness towards newbie players right out of the gate was not good; also think it’s a weak reason for lynch 7 pages later. But Postie makes good point in 214

I've never done a single reaction test this entire game, and I don't know why people thought I did.

Nevermind found my answer.
Yeah you're just scum sorry.

224: Acct challenges RC, again based on meta/prior games. This may be totally correct, but does not help players who don’t know RC make up their minds.
229: IV questions RC’s unvoting of Acct. To me, RC’s decision makes total sense; don’t leave a player at L-1 if you’re unsure and going to be away. Except Acct was at L-2. RC comes back at 231 to explain, makes sense.

Vote Count 1.6

Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?
-That depends a good deal on where you want to get to.

Accountant

(2): Simoyd, Pants98

Mizzytastic

(2): Meepo, Accountant

Meepo

(1): Postie

innocentvillager

(1): Lycanfire

Pants98

(1): innocentvillager

Not Voting

: Grace, RadiantCowbells

Deadline

: (expired on 2016-06-22 07:25:57)

I am seeking replacements for both

Pants98

and

Meepo

.

post 242-

Spoiler:

242: Pants is back! promises to be back soon.
244: Lycan null-reads Grace. Don’t agree with reasoning but this post seems townish, just misguided:

@Lycanfire: What is your read on grace?
@RC: What is your read on grace?

Even if it's just off the top of your head...

Null. I don't like her constant shucks posts-ok this is a newbie game but riding that horse attempts to invoke empathy. If I do that will I be more likely to see her as town? Yes.

I'm at work but in my data I believe she has never interacted with IV (still my tentative top scum choice until I see more) while IV has interacted with her once. Or it's the other way around-I can't access the file.

Lycan also continues with scum reading IV.
248: IV responds to Lycan. This jumps out at me:

Accountant's defense of me, while slightly odd I agree, was completely right. I didn't need to do any more defense of myself when Accountant had given basically the same defense I would've given, why put in the extra time?

I don’t think Acct’s defense was “slightly odd”. It made sense.

251: Harkonnen enters, with reads. Totally agree with his town read on Grace. Town read on Simoyd thinner - I don’t think challenging the IC is necessarily so scary for scum. Town read on RC - mmm, okay, but I see RC as more “don’t give a fuck” about this game (sincere or fake). Overall, liking the post. Liking the slot, because Meepo seemed town. Bye, Meepo
256: RC says Acct needs rope, again.
255 & 257: Lycan asks if there’s a better lynch than Pants, Acct answers just RC
258: Hark calls OMGUS on Acct’s RC lynch call
260: Lycan continues on IV. I think Lycan is tunneling here, but it may be townish tunneling. Lycan says “Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv”, which is true but ignores that IV may be as busy as Lycan is.
261: IV disrespects the life of a retail worker. This is so wrong: “Bruh how long does it take to read briefly through one or two scum games and get an impression? Probably way less time than it takes to write that post of yours. “
262: IV posts reads. The scum read on Lycan strikes me as OMGUS.
263: RC posits an IV/Acct scum team.
266: Lycan posts an association-based take on the game so far, rejecting a Pants or Acct lynch. IV responds. I think these two are talking past each other.
269: Lycan says “You're still ignoring my tell I pointed out in my first post. If you called my premise silly rather than complain all game I would have unvoted you ages ago.” The tell in question (I think) is

'm reading him as manipulating the pace of the game.

273: Postie says:

I don't let people into my townpool willy-nilly. I can dig through IV's ISO and find what he said to make me townread him if you like, but I'm fairly sure he's town.
It's either Accountant/Pants or Accountant/Lycan.

274: Acct asks “why Lycan”
275: Postie says she’s town reading everyone else but Lycan and Acct and Pants
279: Pants prod-dodges again

[snoe]

What Postie said: why me & Lycan?

[snoe]

Okay, so the only way I see any of this as town is that he felt the need to take comprehensive notes, so he must've written these notes first and then drawn his reads from looking at these notes, right

Exactly what I did, except I did some last-minute ISOs before coming up with reads.
Look, I parachuted into a slot that at its most charitable reads extremely lazy town. I don't judge here - pants may have had all kinds of real-life drama going on.
I thought giving my moment-by-moment reactions would do something to help make up for Pants's inactivity.
It was a call I debated making, believe you me.

When I get home and can do a detailed rebuttal to the rest of your critique, I will. Few hours.

[snoe]

"Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv"

^ Can someone explain this to me. I guess I'm missing the obvious but wouldn't scum be more motivated to defend themselves because they have more to lose from dying? Even in this game people have commented that forced or excessive defending is a scum tell. How is the opposite (not posting, so not defending) also a scum tell??

Simoyd, can you give context for the quote? I'm not sure who said it. I'm pretty sure it wasn't me, but it could've been.
(As to the point - I guess scum have more to lose and hence a greater incentive to defend themselves in this setup, but every townie KNOWS they're town and knows nothing else. It makes sense for them to defend themselves too. Did I miss your point?)

[snoe]

Maybe you missed the last clause of the sentence:

but every townie KNOWS they're town and knows nothing else. It makes sense for them to defend themselves too. Did I miss your point?)

[snoe]

But like IV said, you contradicted yourself:
In post 310, snoe wrote:
260: Lycan continues on IV. I think Lycan is tunneling here, but it may be townish tunneling. Lycan says “Scum don't have incentive to post while pressured, obv”, which is true but ignores that IV may be as busy as Lycan is.

In post 323, snoe wrote:
I guess scum have more to lose and hence a greater incentive to defend themselves in this setup

P-EDIT:
snoe wrote:
Maybe you missed the last clause of the sentence:

In post 323, snoe wrote:
but every townie KNOWS they're town and knows nothing else. It makes sense for them to defend themselves too. Did I miss your point?)

Yes you said that, but you still clearly contradicted yourself. You're still saying that scum have a greater incentive to defend themselves, and only that "it makes for townies to defend themselves as well". This clearly shows that you think scum have more incentive to post while pressured, yet you agree with Lycan's "Scum don't have incentive to post when pressured, obv" statement.

The fact that you contradicted yourself isn't even that scummy (although it definitely is), but your refusal to admit that you messed up makes it worse.

Oh, I get it now. Okay. If you want to be reductive, I have contradicted myself. However, I would suggest that it’s totally possible that these things are simultaneously true:
1) Scum have incentive to lie low when under pressure (paraphrasing Lycan)
2) Scum have strong incentive not to get lynched in this setup (paraphrasing Sim)
3) Town have strong incentive not to get lynched in this setup (paraphrasing IV and Sim saying I contradict myself)

In all these cases, I was agreeing with (and, I think, putting up counterarguments to) people making cases based on responses to challenges/questions.

If you want my overall take on this issue, it’s that defending yourself (or others) is NAI in and of itself. There are good reasons for scum to defend and not defend, and for town to defend and not defend, in the kinds of cases I think we are referring to. When someone puts you at L-4, and you're busy, there's no big pressure to defend yourself, in other words.

[snoe]

Okay, the scumteam is very likely Lycan/snoe.

Why?

I've made my case on Lycan multiple times; I really don't want to do it again, but you want, I can.

Pants's L-1 vote was horrible and way too scummy for an SE.

Agreed, but I will point out that I am an "SE," with gigantic scare quotes, just because this is my fourth game on MafiaScum. I have a feeling that some of the newbies have/had more experience than I do.

Snoe is doing a great job of appearing town, but it looks fake.

At least I'm doing a great job at one thing, but not really.

Finally, here are my notes on reading through the game. They are long - sorry. But I think it’s worth posting them because …
1) One of the few benefits of getting a replacement player is getting a new set of eyes looking at the game. Might help?
2) I need to give you all SOMETHING with which to read my slot. Pants, bless him … didn’t.
3) I usually phone post (meaning I don’t do giant formatted posts like this often) - would like to have this available when I’m on my phone.

Okay, IMO this is just him begging to be townread. If this isn't fake I don't know what is. It's basically posting useless shit {snip}

I

am

begging to be townread,

with reason

- my slot looks pretty bad right now! At least I gave you all something to work with as you decide whether or not to lynch me.

{snip}
Take his read on Mizzy, for example:

Especially posts 30 & 51 in early game; sheeping Acct in 81 & 82.

He does explain 30, 81, and 82 in the notes, but where is 51?? He makes no real mention of 51 in his notes.

I mentioned it here:

51: Mizz pushes IV on not scum hunting yet; IV complains about the “noise” level in the game; IV’s response bugs me as fake:

[/b]

The notes themselves just give me a huge scumvibe. There's so many accusations and random "I like this post!"s just being thrown around with no weight. As scum, I notice people when they make scummy posts, because I'm really making an effort to look for them. I'm thinking, I know everyone here is town, so every post seems extra towny. The moment I see something not townie, I point it out, so I can come up with an excuse to find people scummy. But that's all it ever is: accusations that die. There's no life to his accusations, no desire to look more into these conflicts, only listing them as conflicts. He picks the one scumread he had for the 3 pages or so since that happens to be the easiest, safest choice without stirring up conflict especially since Mizzy was a) pretty widely accused but more importantly b) has literally replaced out, so there's no one to take the blame. He doesn't even attack Postie at all, just Mizzy for like 3 posts that weren't even that bad. So he's done all this "analysis" where he's throwing scumreads everywhere in his notes, tries to stay impartial to the major conflicts going on but just lists them as "conflicted". This right here, while maybe a bit intangible, is a big deal breaker for me.

Look, I'm calling it like I see it w/r/t my vote for Mizzy/Postie. The scumreads I'm throwing everywhere are the kind of scumhunting signals I would have commented on (or thought about commenting on) if I had been in the game from the beginning.

As far as snoe and Lycan being a scumteam together, I initially thought I saw snoe subtly buddying Lycan, despite listing him under "Conflicted" which was a huge association tell for me (SUBTLE buddying is an association tell, HARD buddying is NI). But I realized while reading through this that he's done this to all four players listed under "Conflicted".

Consider - for a moment - the scenario where I am not sure who's scum. I know it's shocking to have doubts about your own judgment in this game (/s), but what would you do in my shoes? Flip a coin? Pretend you know who's what? Maybe you would. I wouldn't.

[snoe]

Scum have incentive to lie low when under pressure

Can you elaborate on that incentive? I don't understand why scum would be motivated to do that.

On day 1, you can escape lynching by having people forget you exist. Make sense?

[snoe]

Addressing various posts:

Good response from IV in #27 questioning the whole dialogue

So he says this.

51: Mizz pushes IV on not scum hunting yet; IV complains about the “noise” level in the game; IV’s response bugs me as fake:

Yeah but it was just so much so fast and sometimes games like this have a lot of noise that makes it annoying to read. It's foreshadowing that this is going to be an extremely long game, which I don't really like.

I'm like goldilocks and the three bitches. Too much activity and I sit back and skim like a bitch, too little activity and I'll fill the thread with bullshit, otherwise it's just right

But then says this. He agreed with me that it was good to question the dialogue, but he finds it fake when I complain about the noise level?? In what world does that make sense?

I agreed with your argument in #27; I thought you over-sold it in #52. Make sense?

262: IV posts reads. The scum read on Lycan strikes me as OMGUS.

What SE still uses OMGUS as a scumtell? This is a tell that maybe a beginner mafia player would use.

This is my 4th game on MafiaScum or anywhere - so I am still kind of a beginner. But I didn't use it as a scumtell - I noted it as I read the thread and looked at your interactions.

But even so, this has nothing to do with OMGUS. I had been scumreading Lycan for most of the game, and I gave reasons for my scumread and voted Lycan before I made that reads post. You admit yourself that Lycan's initial case on me was asinine and a stretch.

261: IV disrespects the life of a retail worker. This is so wrong: “Bruh how long does it take to read briefly through one or two scum games and get an impression? Probably way less time than it takes to write that post of yours. “

I never disrespected the life of a retail worker. I've worked a couple jobs at the same time before, and it sucks. But while Lycan claims he's so busy, his post count and posting frequency would disagree with that. You can't deny that Lycan has been posting a fair amount, so no matter how busy he is, he clearly could have taken time to briefly read a scumgame of mine instead of post once or twice in the thread. It REALLY does not take that long, and should be what a townie would do if he's so intent on me being scum.

IMHO, it is much less time-consuming to type out a comment than to read through a game - or two games. I shouldn't have taken the "retail worker" dig - I was one too, for many years, and though I'm out of retail I still have to deal with shitty hours etc. So fist-bump on that, all 3 of us. But the LARGER POINT is that calling someone out for not going outside the game to get a meta-read on someone is BS. That is a good thing to do if you have time. However, it can also be a waste of time - I've done it before, and you and others just did it on me, and it sounds like we all got zilch out of the exercise.

[snoe]

Vtown: {Grace}
Towny: {Postie, Harkonnen}
Nulltown: {IV}
Nullscum: {Simoyd, Lycanfire}
Scummy: {Snoe, Accountant}

Snoe, what do you think about my reads?

My big disagreements are
1) Me (Pants/snoe)
2) Postie/Mizz
3) Accountant
I can see a soft scum read on Sim and Lycan. IV is pissing me off, but since he was already scumreading my slot I guess it's semi-fair.

So RC - what's so scummy about Accountant?

[snoe]

Snoe, map out your read progression on Accountant from game start please.

Really? I can give this a shot tomorrow morning, but I would like to know WHY you're asking for it.
The off-the-top-of-my-head version is that I had serious issues with Acct's play early in the game, but these issues were not alignment indicative overall. There have been some posts that read as unnatural to me, but by and large Acct is playing as I would expect as town. The problems are with the exceptions.
I can try to map it out tomorrow morning. I am guessing you won't give your acct=scum case until I do?

[snoe]

Why would an accountant townflip make you scumread me?

You were shitting on him really hard without communicating your justification. Everything you said for the first while was basically "I vote accountant" over and over. Not sure how this is different from pants getting his free ride, other than that you're associated with accountant. My understanding is that getting a free ride is a scum tell. This would let town fight and lynch each other.

I 'got a free ride' because I was V/LA and people townread my playstyle.

Pants didn't get a free ride at all and was in fact heavily scumread.

I'm not following you.

Not liking how RC turns Sim's question onto Pants. RC also turned my question about RC's read of Acct back on to me.
Seniority =\= authority unless you earn it.

[snoe]

Snoe, map out your read progression on Accountant from game start please.

Really? I can give this a shot tomorrow morning, but I would like to know WHY you're asking for it.
The off-the-top-of-my-head version is that I had serious issues with Acct's play early in the game, but these issues were not alignment indicative overall. There have been some posts that read as unnatural to me, but by and large Acct is playing as I would expect as town. The problems are with the exceptions.
I can try to map it out tomorrow morning. I am guessing you won't give your acct=scum case until I do?

The appeal to authority is ... something I should've expected.
Let me know if I should actually spend time on the map you requested, RC.
And if you'll answer my request.

[snoe]

Snoe, you said that Pants98 wasn't really active and didn't give us much to read him. Did you share those notes of yours and summarize what has been happening this game so we can read your slot better?

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly it. Believe I was explicit about that in post 310.

[snoe]

I don't like this at all, snoe.

Pants was unreadable. His was genuinely inactive, not just lurking. (this can be further supported by the fact that he posted without knowing he was replaced)

Why are you feeling the need to make us townread you when your spot wasn't being really scumread in the first place? It looks to me like you worry too much about how we perceive you.

VOTE: snoe

I didn't read Pants the same way you did, and he was getting votes before replacement. I felt the slot needed defending.

[snoe]

I'll respond to IV's wall tomorrow. Looks like a wall o' bullshit to me, but I'll try. Thanks for the tissues, by the way.

[snoe]

Finally, here are my notes on reading through the game. They are long - sorry. But I think it’s worth posting them because …
1) One of the few benefits of getting a replacement player is getting a new set of eyes looking at the game. Might help?
2) I need to give you all SOMETHING with which to read my slot. Pants, bless him … didn’t.
3) I usually phone post (meaning I don’t do giant formatted posts like this often) - would like to have this available when I’m on my phone.

1)This reason is good in general, but not in the case of your notes. It's helpful to get a new set of eyes giving us reads, not repeating what has already happened in the game.
2)You want us to townread you
3)Extracurricular reasoning, NAI

So, snoe, do you think Pants was scummy?

Pants did 5 posts and they were lazy and prod-dodging. Scummy in a larger sense - they contributed nothing.