Mini 1802: Paint Mafia Sequel - Game Over!

[Something_Smart]

Hi!
I'm pretty excited by this playerlist, though I'm probably the worst player here
Catchup thoughts will come tomorrow.

[Something_Smart]

So, catching up is not my strong suit (but whose is it, really) but I have some reads that I think are at least reasonable.
My top two scumreads are pieguyn and Zulfy, for a couple of reasons.
Just briefly, Zulfy's and UTL's posting was all-around icky and I would gladly pull quotes if I weren't on mobile.
I agree with whoever said that at least one scum was on the Ari wagon. The way pie pushed Ari does meet the standard description of a bus. And there were enough people conspicuously off the Ari wagon, even when Ari's posting got downright desperate, of which Zulfy is one.
In the earlier pages I was townreading pie, until I saw Ranger's list with pie at the bottom, and I realized that that was very possibly one of those easy, hollow townreads that scum tend to pick up.
I feel more confident about this because Ranger agrees and she is town. If Ranger were scum gambiting for time, this is definitely not how she would do it.

[Something_Smart]

I agree with whoever said that at least one scum was on the Ari wagon. The way pie pushed Ari does meet the standard description of a bus. And there were enough people conspicuously off the Ari wagon, even when Ari's posting got downright desperate, of which Zulfy is one.

this is actually horrendous.

go on, in what way does me basically just death tunneling him until he got lynched when I had about a thousand opportunities to push people elsewhere and when it would have been completely unnecessary to do this as scum meet the "standard description" of a bus? what would I have even had to gain as scum from doing that? if there's one thing I most assuredly do _not_ do as scum, it's bussing my partners for literally no reason, because it's horrible scum play; bussing someone who is pretty much screwed is fine, but Aris was basically off everyone's radars entirely except for a few people going "he's kind of off because he usually does more than this when he's town" and none of them were really pushing it.

and you think scum was conspicuously staying away from the wagon, yet you then turn around and claim I apparently just bussed him for no reason?

WTF?

Well, basically, you pushed lala for a while, and then you were like "I don't think lala would be doing what they are as scum :/" and then you switched to Ari. Before 528, you hadn't really said much about him outside of "he hasn't done anything", then that is suddenly the reason for a major scumread. It doesn't feel like a natural read progression.

And yeah, I was tired last night and on mobile, so I didn't put all my thoughts down, but I was basically thinking that one scum was conspicuously off the Ari wagon or at least trying not to be on it (because so many people were), and the other was therefore strongly pushing it to compensate and to avoid creating connections between the two.

And I think your description of Ari's situation was pretty inaccurate. He had no content, and when he did come up with content, it was terrible. There's no reason to believe that he would have responded any better to pressure had it come later in the game, and at any rate there is no way town would let him live until LYLO. So I think he was in fact a prime target to bus.

Oh also, I was going to ask this before.

@TBG:

What is your current read on Dwlee? Do you still believe beeboy townslipped?

[Something_Smart]

And I think your description of Ari's situation was pretty inaccurate. He had no content, and when he did come up with content, it was terrible. There's no reason to believe that he would have responded any better to pressure had it come later in the game, and at any rate there is no way town would let him live until LYLO. So I think he was in fact a prime target to bus.

at some point later in the game, potentially. on D1 when literally no one had figured it out with any amount of confidence or even attempted to put serious pressure him yet? absolutely not.

look at it this way... the only reason you're even talking as if it'd be a foregone conclusion that his content would be terrible is because of how I pushed him D1. without that, he may have been able to coast a few more days, or otherwise come back at some point and generate content in a way that was more comfortable for him (due to it not being basically forced out of him), or something along those lines... that is exactly part of the reason blind bussing is such shit scum play

Or he may not have. Bussing is a gambit; it's a bet that the towncred you earn will be enough to offset the loss of a partner. There is no empirically right answer. Maybe he asked you to bus him because he knew his content would continue to suck? I don't know.

I think you're making the same mistake that ... someone who _would_ blind bus in that position ... would make, and thinking with the power of hindsight that Aris was basically unsalvageable and would need to die sooner or later. and you're not thinking about the more important question, which is "what do I have to gain at this point in the game from doing that as scum", which in that case is pretty much nothing.

Noting this (will address it below).

there are other factors at play, too, i.e. the fact that this is a quiet game that's very lacking in direction, meaning if I as scum were to do something ridiculous, I'd have to explain why me who's supposedly so obvtown and one of the only real "leaders" per se is still alive all the way on D5... no matter how town I thought I could look, that isn't a position I'd want to be in as scum, ever (like yeah, I'm arguing against it right now, but think about it: as scum I have to do it today, and tomorrow, and every day after, and it gets harder and harder to do the longer I'm alive and the more improbable it would be for me to actually be left alive that long). or the fact that it was D1 and that he would have been a prime target for investigative roles overnight due to how much of a lurker he was... if you think this isn't the case then you need to fix your theory game.

In my experience, those accusations are easy to deflect. I don't think I've ever seen "why are you still alive" be used effectively. And even if it were to apply, why would that be different if you didn't bus? If you're scum aiming for as much towncred as possible, that problem could theoretically arise whether you bussed or not.

And yeah, I was tired last night and on mobile, so I didn't put all my thoughts down, but I was basically thinking that one scum was conspicuously off the Ari wagon or at least trying not to be on it (because so many people were), and the other was therefore strongly pushing it to compensate and to avoid creating connections between the two.

you're making a mistake in thinking about things this way - in practice, a lot of scum don't really give a shit about forcing the votes to be a certain way, explicitly because doing this requires forcing votes and not pushing people "naturally" (me included when I do draw scum; actually, when I'm scum I usually explicitly prefer to vote with my partner/s when I can because a lot of people think scum won't vote together, but that's beside the point). it's OK for when someone makes a vote that looks really forced and you're trying to figure out for what reason they would have gone out of their way to force a vote, but if you're using it as a driving point behind your view of the day, not so much.

Yeah, that's fair enough, but it was less about appearances and more about "if one scum was avoiding the wagon and pushing elsewhere, why did it still go through?"

Well, basically, you pushed lala for a while, and then you were like "I don't think lala would be doing what they are as scum :/" and then you switched to Ari. Before 528, you hadn't really said much about him outside of "he hasn't done anything", then that is suddenly the reason for a major scumread. It doesn't feel like a natural read progression.

there is some context here you should probably be aware of: I've seen Aris' scum game before and he generally lurked a lot and was really hedgy/careful about his opinions, and while I had (and still have) no completed games with town-Aris, I've heard he is a player who prefers playing town over scum. thus, at the point where I made 432, that was sufficient to make me think he had a fairly good chance of being scum. also, this is another instance of you just assuming I had to push him at that point with the power of hindsight instead of considering what I would actually gain from doing it ... for what reason would me-scum have drawn that much attention to how he was playing at that point in the game?

I will definitely concede the first point. I have played only with town-Ari, though I have noticed that he tends to get lynched D1 a lot as scum, so I assumed his scum game was fairly noticeable. (From what I saw in this game, it seems to be.) However, that doesn't explain the sudden switch of noticing Ari's lack of posting and deciding immediately that he must be scum for it, just at the same time as you decide lala is probably town for a small point after making a big case on them.

Overall, I don't like the way you're pushing this. Essentially, you're pushing two contradictory statements:
1. You are essentially confirmed town for your push on Ari.
2. Scum has ABSOLUTELY no reason to do what you did.
You're turning possibilities into absolutes in a way that just doesn't make sense. If you were actually confirmed town for the push, then of course scum would have every motivation to do it, and then your whole argument falls apart.

And although I may have made it look like it last night, the Ari push is not the reason I am scumreading you. The main reasons are more nebulous and I only touched on them last night because it's kind of gut. (Although I will elaborate further, to be sure.)

Anyway, what I meant by saying "standard description of a bus" was the way you made the push. Not the fact that you made it or the timing of it, but once you started pushing Ari, it seemed like it could have been a bus. Your last point quoted above deflected my comment about the suddenness of your read progression, both about Ari and about lala. Even if you can say that your push on Ari makes you overall less likely to be his partner, it in no way makes it impossible as you are suggesting.

[Something_Smart]

how much mafia experience do you have, S_S?

basically everything you're saying here are things that are so nonsensical I would treat it as a hard scum tell, except for someone who is complete shit at the game and has no idea how logic works. you don't strike me as that type of player at all, even though you're fairly new.

I definitely see where you're coming from. I have 19 completed games, though my play is very inconsistent; sometimes my reads are good, and sometimes I just get my head completely up my rear end. (That happens more frequently than usual upon replacing in.)

I think the reason you find my arguments are so ridiculous is that I'm trying to argue one thing and you're subtly (and probably unintentionally) strawmanning and leading the argument further off the course of what it was originally intended to be. The original bussing charge (perhaps erroneously) disregarded your likelihood to bus in the case where you are scum, and instead focused solely on your push of Ari itself.

I don't know whether or not you would bus Ari in that scenario. I don't think "it's a needless risk" is a valid argument why not to. This is the crux of WIFOM: intentionally making it harder for yourself, just because people wouldn't expect you to make it harder for yourself. However, I don't want to go into it further, because you've made your point clear, and I simply don't agree with it.

One thing that I do want to address is your allegation to have "strong-armed" the Ari lynch. Looking through your ISO I can't see much more than you saying that Ari is scum and that he hadn't done anything towny, without much elaboration. And it doesn't seem to me that you pushed him the whole day either; AFAICT, you didn't scumread him at all until 528. So am I missing something, or are you playing up your involvement in that lynch?

[Something_Smart]

I think the reason you find my arguments are so ridiculous is that I'm trying to argue one thing and you're subtly (and probably unintentionally) strawmanning and leading the argument further off the course of what it was originally intended to be. The original bussing charge (perhaps erroneously) disregarded your likelihood to bus in the case where you are scum, and instead focused solely on your push of Ari itself.

no, I find your arguments ridiculous because I find your thought process behind it to make no sense. I think there's about a 0% chance of me being lynched here, so it is not my goal to convince you; it is my goal to scum hunt your thought process.

976 in particular is a completely separate issue from whether what I did D1 looks like a bus: your angle there basically amounted to "there's scum off the wagon, and it's impossible for a town player to push through a scum wagon with scum off the wagon, so it must have been a bus", which... where the fuck did you even get this from? it makes no sense and I'm questioning you on it because it makes no sense. it reads more like you're trying to spin this narrative about "omg it must have been a bus" in order to make the reads you want to push more credible, rather than looking at how it went down and coming to any sort of natural conclusion.

Point taken. I heard somebody say that the Ari wagon probably had at least one scum on it, and I was like, "seems legit", but it's definitely not a foregone conclusion, so if I was treating it as such, I won't anymore.

as for the thing about pushing Aris, I don't really think you could be reading objectively and come to that conclusion: I literally told you a few posts ago I was scum reading Aris since before 528 (which you seem to be ignoring), after I voted him I called multiple times for people to vote him with me, when people tried to wagon Katsuki at the deadline I shut that down before it got anywhere, and when he came back and started posting again I pointed out why I took issue with his posts. it is also disingenuous that you would claim that I "didn't do that much" to push Aris when, duh, he was doing jack shit most of the game... which of his nonexistent posts, exactly, were you expecting me to attack? when he did make posts, I did break them down and criticize them. apart from that, calling for people to explain town reads on someone is an excellent way to push a lynch and it's baffling that you don't seem to realize this is what I was doing.

I think we're both guilty of narrow-mindedness here. I read your ISO, and I didn't see, relative to what I am used to from other games, a strong push. It's definitely true that you asked people why they were not scumreading him, but you didn't do much to try to change those reads beyond saying "just look at his content."
Now I will concede that this is a special case because Ari had little content to address, but it seemed as though once the wagon began support for it sprang up from everywhere.
The lynch would probably not have gone through without you. I'll take your word for that since I don't care to go back and analyze things that thoroughly. But you should be able to at least see where I'm coming from here.

(P.S. I use this style of scumhunting relatively frequently; I make some very strongly stated points and then PbPA-war my way to a compromise. It usually helps me get a read that I feel more confident on than my one before.)

I don't know whether or not you would bus Ari in that scenario. I don't think "it's a needless risk" is a valid argument why not to. This is the crux of WIFOM: intentionally making it harder for yourself, just because people wouldn't expect you to make it harder for yourself. However, I don't want to go into it further, because you've made your point clear, and I simply don't agree with it.

if you're one for self-meta, my aversion to bussing unless I feel it's necessary is well documented throughout all of my scum games since 2015. I think it's outright stupid scum play to bus unless you have something to gain from it, and I mean more than just "lel town cred" because as I tried to tell you come D5 or so people aren't going to give a shit that you lynched scum all the way back on D1; I mean an actual positional advantage in the game.

That's good to know. One of my flaws as scum is that I have trouble fabricating wrong reads believably, so I tend to WK and bus as much as the situation will allow. I definitely understand that you're smart enough and good enough to produce good results without bussing.

also also, if you don't think I "strong-armed" the lynch: who led the Aris lynch if it wasn't me?

I seriously have 0 idea how you can read how that game day went and come to that conclusion. I can see thinking I wasn't 100% of it (which it's very rare for anyone to _actually_ be 100% of any lynch), but if you don't think I was at the least among the people who led it, who did?

You'll have to keep in mind that, at least for me, reading 38 pages that I've never seen before without taking notes (I don't have the time nor the multitasking ability to take useful notes) is not going to give me a clear enough understanding of the game to be able to answer this. I do think you were one of the leaders of the Ari lynch. But "strong-armed" to me implies that you made forceful and strong arguments and absolutely refused to consider anything else.

[Something_Smart]

Ok, brief explanation of my reads.

Town

RadiantCowbells:

Ranger: I absolutely can't see Ranger pulling a gambit like this as scum.

Nahdia: I don't know if scum would flip Nahdia blue? I feel like, unless her partner were someone like pieguyn (and I seriously doubt that), they couldn't have expected the Nahdia flip. And I mean her tone is very towny, although I have seen her pull that off as scum. (I do feel like it's different. Also, Ranger was in that game and I don't see Ranger making the same mistake twice.)

Dwlee99: Beeboy was really towny, and Dwlee has been coming up with reads and not really pushing them (showing that he's trying to solve the game more than manipulate it), and he seems to have the same air of not knowing what's going on as he did the last time I played with him (when he was town).

itlepip: Itlepip gives me a hard time because half the time there's no telling what goes on in his head. Pretty sure the way he's being aggressive and jumping on small things is characteristic of his towngame though.

Null/town

lalaladucks: I agree with their reads, I disagree with pieguyn's case, and I understand the whole "reasonable/unreasonable" thing and it sounds like something scum wouldn't admit to. I feel like a lot of the things they are being attacked for are things that could come from a town mindset. Someone with meta of them would be really helpful though.

Null

Bellaphant: Bella's like a Silent, I read her posts and I don't remember anything about them when I look away. I just feel like most of the things she says could be easily said by either alignment.

Null/scum

Katsuki: I got gut pings from TSQ. Katsuki's reads are pretty weird and they're not doing much... this read could easily change, it's half a real read and half a placeholder.

pieguyn: Yeah ok so bussing Ari would have been a stupid move. I still have my eye on you, though this could just be one of my terrible reads... I just feel like she's saying a lot but none of it is really that profound, and I don't like the way she pushed Nina/TSQ as TvT. I also didn't like the way she suggested Ranger could be a TPR, it sounded a little like fishing.

Scum

Zulfy: I said I'd get quotes for this one, so:
I didn't like how UTL just kinda sniped at everyone without really explaining stuff (103, 118, 290, 292, 296, 522).
Zulfy just had a bunch of ugly posts. 581 was unnecessary. 607 is an accusation based on a nonexistent tell. 615 is taking Nahdia's post out of context to paint it as a scumslip; pieguyn had asked her if she had a townread on lala the post before, so making that error was understandable. 619 is bad and looks like an excuse to jump off Ari when he realized he was voting to lynch. 620 doesn't make any sense either. 663 is such a bad reaction to the fake gladiate. Then he kinda settles into not doing much for a while, and 941 only makes sense from a town perspective if said townie has done and said certain things, and hasn't.

Intentionally omitted

TehBrawlGuy: I want a little more elaboration on the beeboy thing before I place this read.

@TBG:

You didn't say beeboy towntold. You said he townslipped. Either something is a townslip or it isn't. If it is, then Dwlee is 100% town. Do you still think it was a townslip? If not, what changed your mind?

[Something_Smart]

I'm tabling Dwlee discussion until TBG responds (I'll answer it then, though, don't worry.)
With lala, it's juts that they sound genuine, their reads are good even if they sound faked (and I don't think they sound that faked), and I like the way they're engaging. I'll look for quotes to back it up, if you want.
Idk what I need from you I just have trouble reading you. I guess you could try to explain your reads more, it's hard to follow your thoughts.

I mean, I'm not scumreading you, so why do you think I need more from you?

[Something_Smart]

Is that referring to my hydra with Lilith?

[Something_Smart]

It's just a name, a bit of self-deprecating humor that I came up with.
I don't know Lilith irl; I know she's smart and I know I'm smart (at least about some things ), but that's it.

[Something_Smart]

I don't like how TBG refuses to admit he was wrong about beeboy yet is still implying he was wrong about beeboy (by not reading Dwlee town).
I saw people discussing whether or not it was towny for TBG to call beeboy's post a townslip and I thought "if he maintains that it was a townslip later and uses that to significantly affect his Dwlee read, then it's scummy, but if he either admits it wasn't or uses other evidence to back up that read, then it's towny." And he's doing the former. If RC makes a strong case on TBG I will definitely follow it.
Anyway, what I was going to say about Dwlee is that the strength of that read comes from beeboy (I've heard that Dwlee is a strong scum player, and I don't trust myself as much to read him while catching up), who did several towny things and several town-beeboy things (I don't think the "townslip" was a townslip but it was somewhat towny).

@pieguyn what are your thoughts about Zulfy's pushing of Nahdia's alleged scumslip?

[Something_Smart]

TBG thought so in 127.

[Something_Smart]

Don't mind Lilith; she's just so excited about the prospect of hydraing with me that she can't control herself

@pieguyn what are your thoughts about Zulfy's pushing of Nahdia's alleged scumslip?

it's completely stupid, but I thought it looked town. I like the fact that he specifically singled me out as the person who should have been able to understand it and didn't; the last time I encountered him as scum I caught him pushing a fake "scum slip" on his partner, and it read like he was expecting me to see that what he was doing here was different from there. I like that even after everyone told him he was unequivocally wrong about it he didn't give a shit and continued pushing it anyway, I liked the follow-up push for what he saw as Nahdia attempting to oversell her scum read on him, which was actually pretty reasonable and didn't read at all like scum stretching to find shit to push, and I liked his demeanor and conviction surrounding it in general.

I think most of what you said about him in general, this included, are null-at-worst posts that you're just fitting scum motivation to because you think he's scum. feel free to ask if you have something else you specifically want me to comment on, although making a Zulfy-town case is something I'd like to do when I'm

not a lazy shit

less busy

I'm like to hear that case, if possible. In the meantime, do you think Zulfy would honestly call something a scumslip without bothering to read the context? (Because that's my biggest problem with that whole push; you had asked her about a townread just the post before.)

Also, what did you think about UTL?

[Something_Smart]

Ranger targeted my slot N1.

I don't really trust the color flip at all at this point, so would be fine with just about anything.

Why not at all? I feel like a blue flip would still give us a decent amount of information.

Just came in to say that I think Dwlee just town-slipped.

How?

[Something_Smart]

Wouldn't we want to flip somebody whose color is unlikely to have been tampered with? I feel like there are other people whose color flips would be more trustworthy, at least.

[Something_Smart]

I was thinking Bella, or maybe Zulfy.

[Something_Smart]

Know how I wanted pie flipped yesterday?
Yeah, if scum have the ability to grant a color-flip, I don't see anyone else they'd use it on. This, regardless of whether he's town or scum. If he's scum he'd be painted blue; if he's town he'd be painted red.

Mostly this. I think scum might be afraid of her becoming conftown. (And there were a few people pushing on her yesterday, and they might have thought they could get people to reevaluate her after lala's flip.)

Re: Zulfy, the logic is that if he is town, scum are not going to want to paint someone who's likely to eat a lynch regardless, but there is an annoying amount of WIFOM there to be sure.

I do want to hear who other people think should be color flipped though.

[Something_Smart]

Why do you want someone widely townread color flipped anyway?

[Something_Smart]

Zulfy can you please explain the townslip now?

[Something_Smart]

Oh, and S_S, your predecessor scumread Bella. If you're town they're conftown to you. Look into it and give thoughts.

I mean, so do you and so are you. Spiffeh didn't explain a lot, and the one post that did explain that read (487) described stuff that I've seen town-Bella do too. I'd say she's just a player whom I have trouble reading, so I would sheep you and Spiffeh on her.

Also @RC what do you think of pie's arguments regarding why she wouldn't bus Ari?

[Something_Smart]

I changed my mind, I think I prefer an itle lynch rn. also, Katsuki might be scum.

bella is still town.

What changed your mind about itlepip?

And where did you say why Bella was town before?

[Something_Smart]

Well, he's V/LA. Is there anything specific pinging you or is it just kind of a "wait where did he go" like it was with Ari?

[Something_Smart]

I think we should lynch Pieguyn today actually.

I do to... but at the same time, she has a point. Checking her wiki, she really doesn't bus; I don't think she's even let any of her partners get lynched in the last few years.

Do you think she would deviate from that in this game?

[Something_Smart]

*do too
god dammit

[Something_Smart]

Do you think scum!itle would intentionally do the same thing that got his partner lynched?
Do you think, if it's just a "too busy to keep up in all his games" thing (and I know he does have a habit of signing up for more games than he can handle), he would put more effort into his town games and less into his scum games?
Why do you townread Bella?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Katsuki
I still don't think this is the best flip but I'll trust RC on it.

[Something_Smart]

I hate 1167 for some reason.

I agree that kraska is town.

@RC: I want to agree with you but can you come up with a reason why pie would choose this game to bus?

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: pie
RC if you could answer this it would make me feel better though.

@RC: I want to agree with you but can you come up with a reason why pie would choose this game to bus?

[Something_Smart]

in what universe does town come to the conclusion that RC is scum here..?

In what universe does scum decide to call the conftown scum?

[Something_Smart]

How is everyone scum or literally mind blowingly bad at this game?

I'm not!

@TBG: why do you townread pie?

@Cheetory: what's the rule on drawings related to the game?

[Something_Smart]

they've been the biggest source of leadership/activity in the game

not indicative of alignment

pushed through a lynch onto scum

not enough to justify a strong townread, especially given that immediately afterward she used the towncred she got from the first lynch to push through another lynch onto town.

[Something_Smart]

not enough to justify a strong townread, especially given that immediately afterward she used the towncred she got from the first lynch to push through another lynch onto town.

I find this fucking hilarious. your argument here basically amounts to "it's scummy that she lynched a town player", which... what?, and you're making this argument directly after conceding earlier that in no way would I have needed to bus in order to navigate this game as scum.

you're not genuinely attempting to read or sort me. you've decided that "she bussed Aris D1" would be a good somewhat-believable angle for feigning a read on me and are bending over backwards inventing reasons to justify it, rather than attempting to read my play.

I haven't fully explained the reasons I'm scumreading you. The fact that you pushed Ari is the only thing that makes me think you might be town.

Being the driving force keeping this game from stagnation is absolutely alignment indicative - scum!pie could take a backseat and watch town flounder. It's an age-old strategy that would work very well here if Pie was Scum.

Taking the one mislynch that heavily against Pie is a massive jump in logic to me. It's would be extremely unlikely for

any

Town leader to hit Scum 100% of the time. Pie being town and getting one right and one wrong is by far the most likely scenario - especially given that lala gave us very little to work with.


Let's talk about

you

, though. Earlier, you posted this:

Null/Scum

Katsuki: I got gut pings from TSQ. Katsuki's reads are pretty weird and they're not doing much... this read could easily change, it's half a real read and half a placeholder.

pieguyn: Yeah ok so bussing Ari would have been a stupid move. I still have my eye on you, though this could just be one of my terrible reads... I just feel like she's saying a lot but none of it is really that profound, and I don't like the way she pushed Nina/TSQ as TvT. I also didn't like the way she suggested Ranger could be a TPR, it sounded a little like fishing.

indicating that you had pie and kat both in your top 3 scumreads. You then joined in the effort to colorflip Kat.

After this, Kat flipped red, and you:
Proceeded to vote pie with no reasoning
Completely dismissed your

red-flipped scumread

with "scum doesn't call conftown scum", when clearly the only reason ANYONE would call RC scum is that they forgot she was conftown, which is entirely NAI.
Spend your effort on questioning

[person who's voting you]

on why he thinks

[person who's spearheading your wagon]

is town

There's just no town motivation behind this. Town!S_S doesn't colorflip Katsuki, his scumread, have them flip red, and then randomly drop them completely. Scum!S_S does, because he needs to get behind RC's loud voice to get the heat off of himself. I think your weak play of calling Kat's slip on RC townie proves this. It's not a genuine opinion, it's one fabricated to give you a reason to pivot onto Pie.

We've agreed that red-flipped doesn't mean anything. However, pie very strongly seemed like she knew Katsuki would flip red.
I didn't dismiss my scumread on Katsuki, and I never called Katsuki town. I wanted an answer to 1255, and I got it.
There was no heat on me until after I did the things you described. Sorry, your narrative doesn't live up to reality.
And why would I need another excuse to pivot onto pie? I already had the huge bussing argument, I could have just said "yeah you were bussing regardless of how stupid you say it would be, it's all WIFOM anyway" and voted her there.

In what universe is flopping on your scumread...
after he flips red...
with extremely flimsy reasoning...
to back a more probable lynch...
on the player who's pushing your wagon...
NAI?

It's like S_S fucking ordered the Jumbo Combo at McScumtells.

Okay, then. Tell me what my read is on Katsuki, since you clearly know so much about it.

You know what? I almost think TBG is less likely to be scum because of the sheer amount of crap he and pie will get if this lynch actually goes through.

[Something_Smart]

Why do you not trust RC on me?

[Something_Smart]

It's more informed than yours.
It's also more accurate than yours.

[Something_Smart]

Me neither. My scumread on you isn't going to change.

[Something_Smart]

If I get lynched, pie and TBG will both catch a huge amount of flak for how hard they pushed me. Therefore I'm not sure if they'd let that happen if they were partners.

[Something_Smart]

I haven't fully explained the reasons I'm scumreading you.

The fact that you pushed Ari is the only thing that makes me think you might be town.

Gosh, it's almost like you're not genuinely interested in scumhunting!

I'm scumhunting, all right. I'll admit I haven't been interested in explaining my reasons thus far. (Just because I haven't explained them doesn't mean they don't exist.) But then again, nobody's asked me to.

I didn't dismiss my scumread on Katsuki, and I never called Katsuki town. I wanted an answer to 1255, and I got it.

Ah, right, completely not mentioning a player and pushing an entirely different wagon isn't dismissing anything.
Also, saying "why would XXX do this as Scum?" absolutely implies that the player is Town. It's a loaded question.

I mean, it was a counter question to Nahdia's question implying that Katsuki's action was illogical for town, showing that it was just downright illogical.
And, news flash, there's multiple scum. Just because I'm pushing one person does not mean that I can't scumread another.

Okay, then. Tell me what my read is on Katsuki, since you clearly know so much about it.

Given that you yourself said he was null/scum and he hasn't done anything of note between them and now, I don't need to be psychic to say probably scum or null/scum.

No, you don't need to be psychic to say that. I'm not sure what you'd need to be to say that I think Katsuki is town.

[Something_Smart]

Incoherent town is the best kind of town.
I could see pie/Katsuki but Katsuki is at L-2 I think? so I won't vote there yet.
I feel like it's not worth it making a case on pie because nobody would listen to me anyway

[Something_Smart]

^ Hey you're not scumreading whatisname anymore? Bc that's what your reads list that brawl guy quoted said. I'm missing a good chunk of the thread So idk if your read on him changed

Who?

[Something_Smart]

Oh yeah. I guess so, other people have been acting scummier and I think some of that read was (unintentionally) due to his playstyle anyway.

[Something_Smart]

I was going to take the time today to make a case on pie, but with RC's replace out it seems the odds are one to zero against her being lynched in the near future.
I can still make the case if you guys (primarily TTH) want, but I'd rather look again at the TBG/Katsuki/Zulfy slots if my work would be pointless anyway.

@kraska: Are you referring to the cryptic stuff I said about TBG right after I replaced in? If so, then that was related to how he called beeboy's post a townslip while maintaining that Dwlee could be scum.

[Something_Smart]

Because I didn't want to take the time to do so and because I didn't see it as necessary yet.

[Something_Smart]

Once some major wagons began to develop, aka, yesterday.
Hence post 1411.

[Something_Smart]

He didn't have a predecessor.
And who's your scum #1?

[Something_Smart]

@kraska: you're hiplop, lol

@pie: tbh I kinda expected more people to sheep RC. So when I saw that wasn't happening (and other wagons were building up instead), I was going to make a case on you.

[Something_Smart]

@pie: tbh I kinda expected more people to sheep RC. So when I saw that wasn't happening (and other wagons were building up instead), I was going to make a case on you.

SS seems to be doing his best to prove I was wrong about him.

About what?

[Something_Smart]

If you think he's scum, who do you have as possible partner? Do you not agree katsuki would have flipped blue if he were teamed with tgb?

Bella
I don't agree at all and I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion.

Well, TBG claimed color miller, so I don't see why scum would bother painting him blue...

[Something_Smart]

Anyway not feeling scumtgb...he's like a secondary consensus scumread for everyone and secondary consensus scumreads are usually town
Still think katsuki is the best lynch for today

The only reason he's a secondary scumread and not a primary one is that I don't see him being with pie.

[Something_Smart]

@Mod: I'll be V/LA from Friday to Tuesday.

I'll still have mobile access though, so no worries.

[Something_Smart]

I could see a TBG/Nahdia team.
Just throwing that out there.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: TBG
Why does that make you less likely to be his partner?

[Something_Smart]

Because presumably I wouldn't doubtcast my partner's early miller claim if that's how he's planning on playing the entire game, dorko.

Why not?
Would you expect people to take it seriously?

I don't have any issue with flipping Nahdia, but her Aristo vote was a <1 hr deadline scramble and I'm not sure what she's done that we see as scummy.

The slip I pointed out and her reaction, what do you think of that?

It wasn't a slip, and tbh I think most of what you posted on her is silly.

VOTE: itle.

I'm still fine with Nahdia flip but it's not my preference.

Why would TGB not want to flip my color if we'd painted me blue the night before.

Clearly he didn't want to flip you, that's why he voted you not thirty posts later.

[Something_Smart]

You were town as hell in Open 629.

[Something_Smart]

oh, well why didn't you just say so
Anyway, answer my question in 1488.

[Something_Smart]

So you guys wanna color flip me? I'd rather we do zulfy or Bella slot tho

Do you think we can trust either of those flips?
I think we get more information from VOTE: pie.

[Something_Smart]

Why is Nahdia conftown?

[Something_Smart]

What about flipping pie?

[Something_Smart]

What about flipping pie?

I'm almost certain katsuki is scum
And Pie's behaviour and reactions to katsuki being wagoned makes me think she's probably town. Associative too strong and obvious to be real. Just like with tbg
Do you think she's scum?

Meh... I kinda do, but there's no way she's getting lynched anyway so I'm kinda assuming she's town on the grounds that if she's scum we've already lost. (Doesn't make me not want to flip her.)

Uhh maybe i should ask first: Do you think katsuki is scum?

I'm scumreading him, but none of my scumreads are that strong, so... sort of.

[Something_Smart]

Zulfy did you figure out who TBG targeted?

[Something_Smart]

wow...
Uh, well played and sorry I had to replace out. (My fault but not my choice.)
This game was tough because it was based entirely around a mechanic about which very little information was provided, leading to a crap-ton of uninformed setup spec and modWIFOM. And I am still annoyed by TBG's Miller claim (though my slot was the save? I did not expect that... I thought it was 75% RC and 25% Ranger).