Mini 1805 [C'est fini!]

[petroleumjelly]

Very tired, and I have not read the game as closely as I would like. My take-aways:

1.)

I am undecided on Eggman.

But I do not believe the seemingly popular Creature-Eggman connection. Creature was really the first player to draw attention towards Eggman's posting in Post 91 which led to him looking more in-depth in Post 95. It looks natural, as does his unvote. While I agree Eggman did not technically crumb vanilla, I can believe the intent was there and that Creature was working from that intent when he unvoted.

Given how players seem to agree it is a bad idea from anybody to crumb vanilla, I am surprised at how many people have nevertheless theorized that a mafia partner might have directed Eggman to do so.

2.)

Robbnva has pinged my radar

many

times. I will just copy-paste some of my notes (with a single pro-town mark):

Post #28: Robbnva "I'm not scum but... you're on my watch list"
Post #94: Robbnva suggests he needs to "calm down" (does not sound like somebody with 135 games under his belt)
Post #154: Robbnva "missed" Creature's case on Smithereens and will "read it later" despite constantly posting (why not "read it now" or read it before posting) => trying too hard to look engaged
Post #326: Robbnva calls Creature unvote (preventing hammer on Eggman) "weird" and says Smithereens has "good points" against Creature
Post #430/431: Robbnva is "worried" about players who do not have a read on him, and implies atm487 is not "playing the game" for not having previously mentioned his misgivings about Robbnva
Post #435: Robbnva again uses language to make atm487 look bad ("nonsense," "confus[ing]," "laughable")
Post #488: Robbnva tries to make it look ridiculous that Creature is "scumreading a vacant slot" (when Creature is clearly using process of elimination)
Post #534: Robbnva seconds Creature to stop asking for prods (... really?)
Post #542: Robbnva has questioned "at least ha[lf] the player list" (running theme of pointing out his own accomplishments in-game)
Post #545: Robbnva explains doubts on Eggman lynch (fair post+)
Post #610: Robbnva votes crab and requests investigation on Creature (?!)
Post #822: Robbnva votes Smithereens and "will ignore from now on"

3.)

Dragon of the West seems to have transformed starting around Post #632. Prior to that he seemed to jump in to make inane comments, or comments seemingly designed to keep the day going in the direction it was already going (i.e., an Eggman or Creature lynch). I was ready to call him out for textbook active lurking. Now he has "softened" his read after the wagon has substantially ebbed.

Dragon of the West, do you feel like your play has kicked into gear lately? Why?

4.)

Smithereens has been putting unusual pressure on certain players for votes (i.e., trying to get Creature to put Eggman back at L-1, and then trying to get Robbnva to vote for Creature in exchange for a crazycrabman on Day Two). I

really

have not liked it.

~

I have more, but I need sleep. Expect questions. A busy weekend coming up, but I will try to make time when I get home at night. For now:

Vote: Robbnva

[petroleumjelly]

To condense my Robbnva vote into a few points that are not just snippets of notes:

Robbnva is immediately dismissive of suspicions on himself (starting as early as Post #18 where he rolls his eyes at Dwlee99 for placing a serious vote on him). For example:

Since I'm not scum not have I done anything remotely scummy it would be just plain stupid to vote me but hey whatever floats your boat

Lol how did i go from null to scumlean?

I haven't done anything townie yet?

Calling out a weird 180 and doing research to catch a player in a lie isn't townie?

Dude my posts scream town. Saying I haven't made any townie posts is like saying Jeremy Lin is the best player to
Ever play in the nba.

There is literally no way you can read my posts and think I could be scum right now.

Yeah I'm calling foul.

1. I didn't do anything scummy

There are a few more 'subtle' ones (such as pointing out how he has looked into games other than this one, pointing out how he has questioned ha[lf] of the player list, indicating how engaged he is, etc.). Of course, all of this rather contradicts the following gems:

I'm not worried about how my actions are perceived.

I'm genuinely worried that at this point he doesn't have more reads. Tbh I have posted enough I should be more than a null for anyone. People should be able to tell if they think I'm townish or scummish. the fact that anyone is null reading me still is worrisome. As for not having anything AI in my posts, I find that quite amusing. I fee there's plenty I've said that can lead people to determine my alignment.

Robbnva

is

fairly concerned about how his actions are perceived, or else he would not immediately jump in to dismiss people who find him suspicious. And apparently, everybody should have an opinion on Robbnva, but the only possible opinion conceivable is that Robbnva is Town.

~

For somebody with 135 games under his belt he has been prone to seemingly not understand very basic things. Off the top of my head:

->

a.)

He seems to consistently not understand how Creature can use process of elimination to narrow down players into a suspect pool. (This is done by putting everybody think is Town in the Town pool, and then everybody

not

on that list goes in the Scum pool).

->

b.)

He very badly attempts to direct investigations:

Fuck it

vote: crab

Somebody please investigate creature. Clearing that slot would make me sleep better

And he has attempted to direct investigations a second time as well in Post #848.

This is basic mafia theory. In fact, I had a post about this over ten years ago that is still applicable. For somebody claiming to have played in 135 prior games, this is fairly egregious.

~

I do not like Robbnva's assessment and push of Eggman's lynch for a few reasons.

First, he attacks Creature's unvote of Eggman as being "weird." It should be evident that removing a player from L-1 is prudent play for any player with doubts about the lynch, but this goes unaddressed.

Second, he fails to consider Eggman's relative newness to the game when assessing Eggman's claim / "crumb":

If anything VTs should try and give off a vibe they are a pr rather they are a vt

Essentially he tries to hold Eggman to the standards of an experienced player, and then using Eggman's failure to meet those standards as evidence of Eggman being scum.

Third, he puts Eggman back at L-1. When he moves his vote, it is while attempting to connect Creature to Eggman (as Smithereens hypothesized). His efforts thereafter go towards lynching Creature. While he

did

go to lengths to effectively state he was not trying to set up lynches (i.e., "lynch Creature today, lynch Eggman tomorrow"), I

do

get that impression from his vote switch.

[Note: Smithereens has very similar offenses when it comes to Eggman / Creature].

~

Stopping there. Will try to write up another post or two about other things. It's past midnight and I'm getting tired.

[petroleumjelly]

Responses first. Trying to respond to Robbnva's Post #847 and Post #848 feels unwieldy and going line-by-line would likely be confusing. I will just make a few comments.

->

a.)

Robbnva, you seem to be going out of your way to show how 'helpful' and 'engaged' you are, hence my issue with the wording of some of your posts. In fact, you made fun of Dwlee99 for "trying so hard" to look Town ("ladhst") while doing the same yourself. Your reaction to his serious vote on you was "I'm not scum but... you're on my watch list." You then were apparently so engaged by page 4 of the game that you had to "calm down." You were

then

so engaged and posting-on-the-fly that upon discovering you "missed" Creature's case on Smithereens, instead of simply reading it you said that you'll "read it later." What I don't like here is that you were actively and constantly posting; you could have just and gone back and read it instead of explaining you were going to do it. I just see "look how engaged I am!"

->

b.)

I am not defending atm487, but I

am

attacking the way in which you dealt with atm487. He is a new player, and your language while speaking to him was rather insulting. You go so far as to state that he could not be seriously suspicious of you

now

or else he should have mentioned his feelings

earlier

.

First, that's not how this game works. People very much

can

keep opinions to themselves for multiple reasons. And newer players in particular can be nervous about attacking players (especially vocal / abrasive ones).

Second, atm487

did

mention his suspicion of you (see, e.g., Post #100).

Third, while insulting him, you also claimed to have never voted for atm487. Except you atm487 was your first non-serious vote (see Post #107),

and

you voted him (without explanation) directly after he expressed suspicion of you.

->

c.)

Berating somebody for asking for prods is bad; asking for prods is

good

.

->

d.)

Claiming that you will ignore players is also bad.

->

e.)

I am unsure of Eggman because I have trouble reading newer players. I would not consider attempting to crumb a vanilla townie, for example. And I do not know how I could put myself into a "newbie mentality" any more. While I do not think his play was

good

, I have a hard time deciding if it is

scummy

.

->

f.)

I can pressure who I want in the order I wish. Your criticism that I should be pressuring Dragon of the West or Smithereens over yourself are noted.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

atm487,

->

a.)

Why did you use the language that you "know for a fact" Creature is Town?
->

b.)

Could you please rephrase your Eggman vote? Do you have anything to add to this vote now?
->

c.)

Why do you seem so eager for an Eggman lynch? (See Post #405 and Post #573)? And further, do you agree that there is an "objectively sound case" on Creature?

I realize you are likely on vacation.

2.)

Dragon of the West, could you please summarize the contents of your Neighborhood discussion with Robbnva? Please avoid direct quotes.

3.)

Smithereens, to make it formal:

->

a.)

What were the "faulty assumptions" you made about Creature early in the game?
->

b.)

Why did you propose a "trade" of Robbnva helping you lynch Creature today in an exchange for a crazycrabman lynch tomorrow? Do you make a habit of trying to order lynches?
->

c.)

Why did you attempt to pressure Creature into putting Eggman

back

to L-1?

4.)

crazycrabman, why were Robbnva and Creature knocked down in your updated 'chart' to a scumlean?

Relatedly, could you please elaborate on these posts:

I believe that Creature and some lurker is scum. I believe creature is scum because his attitude fits that of scum and his posting style. This is a result of a flawed strategy so take it with a grain of salt. I know you are going to say t re-read the game with a different mindset but anything different besides the one I have used and am using right now would be lying to myself.

Also, many things changed between creature's early game and now. Early on he acted like he did in my first game with him, where he was town. Now he is acting a lot different, a bit like atm in that first game. I did like his posting style before, but not now.

~

Sleep now.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

@petroleum: Do you think some of the point again robb could be explained by a very different playstyle as opposed to him being scum? Cause I'm not really seeing the scum motivation for his actions

To an extent, yes. I have played with Robbnva once before while he was under a different name, and it was one of the singularly most unpleasant games I have participated in. I would much rather not interact with him at all, and I would not have offered to replace if I had known. But I'm here. Given this backdrop, I actually did take a step back and decide whether I am being influenced by annoyance or suspicion.

He is trying too hard to make sure we remember how involved he is in the game. He claims everybody should have an opinion on him but he is dismissive of people whose opinion is suspion (and this contradicts his attempts to say he "doesn't care" how he is perceived). He keeps acting like he has made silver-bullet cases against people (catching them in "lies") when at best he has hit on some potential contradictions.

He has tried to direct investigation targets twice, which is something he should know not to do with his level of experience. Now he has also outed his Neighborhood, which if Town is

obviously bad

. If both Robbnva and Dragon of the West are Town, that just gives the scum a much better perspective of what they are dealing with. The reveal did not even accomplish anything. So why do it? It looks to me that it was largely in response to having somebody expressing genuine suspicion of him (i.e., me) and trying to vaguely suggest perhaps we should poke at Dragon of the West instead.

I have not liked his votes, which have been: vote atm498 afer being called a slight scumlean on page 4; putting Eggman at L-1 on page 17 (i.e., never switching his early vote until it puts somebody near death); switching to Creature after a Creature-Eggman team was discussed; putting crazycrabman at L-2 (while requesting an investigation on Creature); voting for Smithereens while arguing over Eggman-Creature connection; and now voting No Lynch to 'make a point.' He basically held on to his vote early until he could put a player close to being lynched, then switched while connecting that player to another player, then put a third player close to being lynched, and now he's starting to get erratic after those lynches did not go through. His two latest votes have essentially involved him putting his fingers in his ears (claiming he should "ignore" Smithereens, and voting No Lynch because apparently there's something "wrong" with us).

Players who play "emotionally" can still be scum, and you can expect them to act emotional when they are scum.

2.)

Infinity 324, can you explain Robbnva's position in your list:

From scummiest to towniest, it goes something like this:
Derek, Mario, petroleum, dragon, crab, atm, robb, dwlee, eggman, f-oh-ex, smith, creature

Robbnva is one of the few players you have actually expressed and explained your suspicion on. Otherwise you have said you have a potential "gut" read on Derek12 and MarioManiac4. Has something about Robbnva changed your mind on him since your entrance into the game?

Additionally, could you please attempt to explain your gut reads of Derek12 and MarioManiac4? You have given some explanation for your Derek12 suspicion (in Post #835), but not MarioManiac4.

3.)

Dragon of the West, I am having serious issues of your treatment of Eggman's vanilla townie "crumb." While Eggman was at L-1 you basically tried to push through the lynch by attacking his "crumb" for multiple posts, including:

the dessert question may have been on purpose, but at this point it doesn't make me believe that eggman would do that as vanilla townie.

it feels like a scum leaving an easy crumb for themselves to claim

And two minutes later, you crumb Neighbor:

OOC: what was that show from the 90's with the guy who would always say

"howdy neighbor"

? Was that the one with Tim Allen talking to his

neighbor

over the fence and they never showed his

neighbor's

face? I've been trying to figure it out all day and it's killing me

Mind explaining? This looks an awful lot like an "easy crumb for you to claim." And neighbor is mechanically about the weakest role possible after Townie. Even if you are a Neighbor (which I believe), it says next to nothing about your alignment.

[petroleumjelly]

He has tried to direct investigation targets twice, which is something he should know not to do with his level of experience.

Thanks for proving you are a bad player if you are town. Cause that's factually wrong. There's nothing wrong with giving investigative advice.

Sigh.

Giving investigatory advice implies you are not a Cop (which is bad). If a Cop listens to your advice, it gives scum the opportunity to kill the player being investigated (which is bad). If the Cop does not listen to your advice, then your request was at best pointless and at worst indicative of your role. And of course, the faction that has the most incentive of knowing who is going to be investigated on a given night is obviously scum. Townspeople do not need to know who is going to be investigated at all.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Dragon of the West, in your last game of mafia (which I understand was also your first game), you put a player at L-1. You later showed concern about leaving players at L-1 where they could be hammered, and you in fact unvoted that player to prevent it:

does someone want to unvote just to be sure? or are we okay with him sitting at L-1 trusting no one will just hammer him?

Is tojam at L-2 or L-1? I unvoted because I was afraid at[m487] would throw on his vote after my explanation and accidentally hammer

You did not seem to have the same mentality with Eggman today. If anything, you ramped up the pressure once Eggman hit L-1/L-2. You have only recently shifted your vote, but that was only after the wagon had died down. Between you, F-oh-ex, Smithereens, and Robbnva roundly criticizing Eggman's "crumb," there was clearly enough conversational momentum that an Eggman lynch was in sight. This was particularly evident given that a votecount put Eggman at L-1 in Post #404, which was followed by atm487 calling for a hammer, and then crazycrabman (a potential hammer vote) posting that Eggman was his strongest scumread in Post #415.

Why were you content to leave your vote on Eggman?

2.)

Dragon of the West:

I play by considering everyone to be mafia at the start. Guilty until they convince me they're innocent

This is pretty clearly not how you actually play. Why did you say it, then?

3.)

Dragon of the West, both of your serious votes in this game were in large part because you wanted to "hear more" from certain players:

I don't like eggman's posts so far in general and i'd like to see more defense/scum hunting from him. Until then, VOTE: Eggman

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

While I don't have problems poking at quiet players, is there a reason you have not placed votes on your main scumreads?

4.)

Robbnva, could you summarize your Neighborhood conversation with Dragon of the West? Please refrain from direct quotes.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

I think petroleum meant to say "scumread eggman" instead of "push the lynch through", and I think the distinction between those things is a nitpick.

I meant what I said.

2.)

Dragon of the West:

I play by considering everyone to be mafia at the start. Guilty until they convince me they're innocent

2) It's literally how I look at the game. I don't understand your argument of that is not how I play, because it is. Find the people i think must be town, and the rest are in a possible scum list. then widdle it down until I have the scum team. it's just another way to say process of elimination

Nope. Your posts show you hunting using scumreads, not eliminating based on townreads:

While I think creature is my strongest scumread at the moment, I'm still suspicious of others and I think Robb is right to say we should use more of this day to put pressure on different people and get more ideas on them.

My read on eggman has shifted towards a soft scumlean. I like the way he handled all of the votes on him.
I think robb is fairly town although I'm suspicious about him.
Crab seems lost the past couple days and his defensive posts didn't make much sense to me so that's a scumread.
The inactives make it tough because any of them could be scum but we have no way of reading that.
I have mixed feelings on atm. I don't want to say it's a null read, but it could go either way. He could be VI but that's the same way he played last game when he was scum so I don't like it.
Bottom line is not many people have seemed very towny up until this point

Main suspects being the 3 people that have had a wagon on them so far

I think a lot of people agreed aside from you and creature that it was a weird crumb to begin with(fohex and robb especially), so I don't think it's unreasonable that I originally disagreed and read that as a scum!egg move. But I realized the point you and creature made and agree it's possible for town!egg to do that. This made him no longer my strongest scumread, who is now mario, but egg is my 3rd

Perhaps the most telling reason for why you are not playing that way is the fact that you have called Creature "hilarious" for using such a process of elimination style:

I am thinking the whole scum team is in {Akigoku, crazycrabman, MarioManiac4, Robbnva, Smithereens, stelo}

You're putting a person that has never posted onto the scum team? For real?

There is. He never posted. He's scum reading a vacant slot

Lol yup I find that hilarious

If you

really

played like everybody is scum unless proven otherwise, you would

also

have players who have never posted in your scumpool.

So the question is,

why

are you acting like you play with that mentality? I think the answer lies in the post you made the claim:

I don't like eggman's posts so far in general and i'd like to see more defense/scum hunting from him. Until then, VOTE: Eggman

I agree that his posts are funny but not being that actively scum hunting doesn't mean he's scum. I for instance aren't that active but I'm still town.

Doesn't mean he's scum, but I still want more from him. If you're gonna have weird feeling posts then you have to give me a reason to think you're town. I play by considering everyone to be mafia at the start. Guilty until they convince me they're innocent

You basically said it in order to justify keeping your vote on Eggman.

~

Unvote: Robbnva

Vote: Dragon of the West

I think you were scum trying to push through an Eggman lynch. I think if you were Town you would have shown at least

some

concern about Eggman being so close to L-1 (especially since you explained that there

was

a quick hammer vote in your first and only mafia game here); but because it was in your interests you chose to ignore it. You instead joining the crowd criticizing Eggman's "crumb."

And

while criticizing Eggman for breadcrumbing such a useless role, you effectively did the same with your mechanically useless Neighbor role two minutes later. You have since claimed it was not

meant

to be a breadcrumb, but there is no question that had you been forced to claim later in the game you have doubled-back to that post to support it.

~

I think a lot of people abandoned the Eggman wagon earlier. He handled the pressure of all the votes on him well. While he's still a scum lean for me for now, he's not near my top. I think some others were reading him closer to null/town even. Creature still bothers me because of the blatant lies and shotty reasoning to back off the Eggman wagon so early. His reason was the crumb claim. While it's possible this really swayed him, his logic was completely faulty.

That makes me feel like he was hoping for an Eggman lynch to get himself some town cred once egg flipped town.

While I think creature is my strongest scumread at the moment, I'm still suspicious of others and I think Robb is right to say we should use more of this day to put pressure on different people and get more ideas on them. Especially with a few inactives that we're waiting to get replaced. That being said, the day can always end up going back to a lynch on creature after we've gotten more reads on everyone else

I think the player who was

hoping

for an Eggman lynch was you. How

annoying

it must be to see somebody unvote the easy Day One lynch for "completely faulty" reasons.

~

I actually want to move on to a couple other players, but I really have to sleep. Hopefully will get there tomorrow night.

[petroleumjelly]

I believe this is the most current vote count:

crazycrabman - 4 - Derek12, Eggman, Dwlee99, Smithereens
MarioManiac4 - 4 - Dragon of the West, Creature, Robbnva, Infinity 324
Creature - 2 - F-oh-ex, crazycrabman
Derek12 - 1 - MarioManiac4
Dragon of the West - 1 - petroleumjelly
Eggman - 1 - atm487

Given the deadline and the requirement that we need a full seven votes to achieve a lynch today, I will move my vote to either crazycrabman or MarioManiac4. Going to read each of them first. If there is an alternate wagon that actually looks promising at hitting seven votes, I would likely to be willing to support it as well.

[petroleumjelly]

Go with the crabman wagon. The MM4 one is a pure newbie wagon it seems.

Mind using reasons besides pointing to the voters? If I were to base my vote on that alone, I would not pick the wagon being supported by both Robbnva and Dragon of the West.

[petroleumjelly]

There are literally four votes on crazycrabman and four votes on MarioManiac4; I would say there definitely

are

votes on MarioManiac4. There is

quite

a bit wrong with that logic.

[petroleumjelly]

FoS: Smithereens

[petroleumjelly]

This post is a bit of a mess, so apologies in advance. I just don't have time to organize my thoughts or my post right now very clearly.

~

From MarioManiac4's catch-up posts:

->

a.)

In Post #1002 I do not agree with his summarization of Derek12's play. MarioManiac4 paints Derek12 as spending all of his time pursuing crazycrabman ("he doesn't seem to be posting about anyone but crab"), while Derek12 has very clearly been poking at other players and asking them questions. He also states that Derek12 seemed to push the Eggman wagon at it's peak, and that does not appear to be true at all.

I agree that Eggman seemed much more involved and proactive in Celestia Mafia at a glance (and see below).

And I do agree that crazycrabman claiming to have a "strategy" is concerning in itself (since by and large, only scum really think about "strategies" to get through the Day). But I think this comes down to the use of the word "strategy"; I think "playstyle" is more accurate for what crazycrabman is describing.

->

b.)

I also don't understand why Smithereens was included (and then not analyzed) by MarioManiac4. He later mentioned that Smithereens was "first on the playlist," but if that was the determining factor I would think he would continue going down the playlist, which he did not do.

->

c.)

In Post #1105, MarioManiac4 criticizes Creature for trying to meta Eggman from "1 game," which is a strange criticism seeing as MarioManiac's analysis of Eggman just earlier seemed to be based on "1 game" (Celestial Mafia).

~

While scanning Eggman's posts in Celestial Mafia (see above), I came across a couple interesting tidbits:

Biscuitoid: He's just giving me newbie vibes. True Neutral. (Although, claiming VT on Day 1 is a bad bad move, for future reference.)

Claiming VT is useless. I don't know about you guys, but as a mafioso I would never claim VT.

I am a Vanilla Townie. Oh, only other acceptable time for VT to claim: in "roleclaim or die", or LYLO.

From the looks of it, Eggman was eventually run up Day One, claimed Townie, and eventually hammered himself in order to help Town achieve a lynch. On the one hand, given the above quotes, I am less inclined to think Eggman is scum in this game. But on the other hand, Eggman really

was

much more proactive and helpful in that game than this one. Eggman, could you please elaborate on your thoughts of claiming Vanilla Townie on Day One? And if you do not think it is acceptable to

claim

Townie on Day One, why do you think it is acceptable to

crumb

Townie on Day One?

~

Additionally, Creature, I noticed you were scum in that game, so I trust you are more familiar with Eggman's play. Do these quotes from Eggman influence your opinion of him? Did you remember them while playing this game?

[petroleumjelly]

I don't know what to think of crazycrabman. There is far and away a single quote that I think is probably the most telling of his alignment:

Yeah, I was pretty hyped the first game as I waited awhile for it and I got a power role. This game I'm a bit low on energy as that hype is burning off.

In crazycrabman's finished game (Newbie #1715 -- the same game I looked at Dragon of the West, in fact), he pulled a Cop role and pegged a scum with an investigation Night One. That scum counter-claimed him. The game lasted a total of about nine real-time days. I can definitely see how this game would be comparatively less exciting. So the main question to me is whether crazycrabman would similarly be excited/hyped to get a

scum

role in this game.

Another thing that caught my eye in that game was crazycrabman's post-game agreement that scum, even when all hope appears lost, should not give up:

Except Atm487, you need to stick it out to the endgame. Don't ever give up, even when we are saying we know you are scum. I had no idea you were scum but I just acted like I did to see how you would react. If you would've kept trying to prove you're town you could've convinced me to (maybe) vote Dwlee99 tomorrow

Yeah, never give up, never surrender!

Which is a bit different from how crazycrabman has acted in this game:

I see there's four votes on me now. I really can't argue against this wagon because it is concerning the strategy I was testing this game. I can't edit all my posts so hey fit another strategy and just saying "I'm town" won't convince anyone. I could try to justify my reasoning but I already tried that and that didn't work so what else can I do?

You see? Nothing I can do. I guess i'll ride this one out...

So I don't know. crazycrabman

has

seemed to return with a big of a renewed vigor, and I am not sure what that says about his alignment given the context.

~

For now I'm going to do some packing for my trip and think about things. I will be sure to cast a vote before I leave.

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: MarioMaker4

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Okay so scum team is dragon, crazy and eggman. Thoughts?

So you think the scumteam in a 13-player game would be three people?

I WAS looking for an answer there, although the intent seems to have not come across. Every mod can do things differently, as well, so I wouldn't know the exact ratio of a 13-player game, hence the question.

Would like to revisit this now. Eggman, were you of the opinion that a 13-player game would have a two-player scum team? Did you think there would be multiple scum teams?

2.)

atm487, please answer my questions from yesterday:

1.)

atm487,

->

a.)

Why did you use the language that you "know for a fact" Creature is Town?
->

b.)

Could you please rephrase your Eggman vote? Do you have anything to add to this vote now?
->

c.)

Why do you seem so eager for an Eggman lynch? (See Post #405 and Post #573)? And further, do you agree that there is an "objectively sound case" on Creature?

3.)

Creature,

F-oh-ex, wtf, if there's an SK we're literally on a MyLo.

Mind explaining why you think this?

4.)

Eggman, could you summarize your case on Smithereens?

5.)

MarioManiac4, could you try to honestly summarize how you think you play as Town, how you think you play as scum, and then how you think you have played this game?

Additionally, what would you say you more commonly claim when you are scum? Do you tend towards claiming power roles?

[petroleumjelly]

F-oh-ex, wtf, if there's an SK we're literally on a MyLo.

I find it very unlikely a vigilante would shoot Dwlee99 or Robbnva, therefore I believe there's an SK.

6:3:1
Mislynch
5:3:1
2 town deaths
3:3:1

And then we're kingmakers (we could still win but that'd be complicated).

Let's add some definitions. MYLO means "mislynch and lose." This is different from LYLO ("lynch or lose") in that MYLO does not

require

a correct lynch; No-Lynching may theoretically be the best option. There are some issues with your statement:

First, in the situation where there is a Serial Killer, you are assuming the opposing scumgroup is three people. It is very possible it is two people.

Second, you are assuming in the case of a mislynch today that there will be two town deaths, as opposed to potential crosskills, prevented kills, or a double-kill.

Third, you started Day Two with a vote for atm487, but then chastised F-oh-ex for placing the first vote on you because we are "literally in MYLO." There are all sorts of issues with this:

->

a.)

It takes six votes to reach a majority today. Why are you so concerned about a single vote on yourself? Even if we were in LYLO (which to be clear is much worse than MYLO), we would still be safe having two votes on a single player since even a scumgroup of three players could not force through a lynch.
->

b.)

If you're so concerned with single votes, I would think you would not also start off the day with a vote (especially before you are done 'gamesolving'). You also did not chastise Eggman for his Smithereens vote.
->

c.)

If you are concerned about

multiple

votes on yourself, why did you not chastise Dragon of the West for placing the second vote on you?
->

d.)

There is no proof we are "literally in MYLO." Even in the worst-case-scenario of 3 mafia and 1 Serial Killer, you are assuming the worst-case-scenario in nightkills. That is not how MYLO works.

~

Your exaggerated concern for MYLO is just making me think you have more information about the set-up, which implies you are scum.

What are your thoughts on Eggman?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

petroleumjelly

2 mafia members + 1 serial killer in a 13 player setup looks anti-mafia.

Then I don't trust your definition of balance very much. You also rather ignored all of the other reasons why even assuming there is a Serial Killer this is not "literally MYLO."

And please answer my question: what do you think of Eggman?

2.)

On one hand SK will probably try to target Mafia. On the other one, eliminating him would get us rid of one NK.

In just about all cases we are

much

better off lynching mafia over a Serial Killer. If you need a more detailed explanation, please ask.

3.)

Did anyone read either as scum?

Please just read the game. While I agree with the sentiment that scum are more likely to hunt for a Serial Killer, it is similarly likely that scum would hunt for a hints at a potential Vigilante, which your questions are skirting.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Dragon of the West, your thoughts on Smithereens/DrippingGoofball?

2.)

Dragon of the West, why did you not attempt to chat with Robbnva during Night One? You went so far as to try to get his attention in the middle of Day One, and I would think you would have more to say after the crazycrabman lynch and flip.

3.)

Eggman, why did you vote for crazycrabman on Day One while offering up one of yourself and Creature on Day Two?

So, based on what I've seen of other people's opinions, it seems that you consider Creature to mutually be scum with either Crabman or me.
VOTE: Crabman,

FoS: Smithereens (un-FoS Crabman)

I propose lynching Crabman today, seeing how he flips, and if he's town lynch me or Creature tomorrow.
Because I don't get the cases on Infinity and Dragon, which also (to me) seem a little OMGUS-y (didn't Infinity call out DotW in the first place?)

Based on your Day One posting your top scumread was Smithereens (and I see that is apparently still true based on your recent vote), so I don't understand why you would resort to a sort of 'gambit' offering like that.

4.)

Eggman, in explaining your case on Smithereens you said:

5. MM4's defense seems very much like one of the scum variety

Could you explain this?

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: DrippingGoofball

[petroleumjelly]

PJ you always manage to convince yourself I am scum and you are always wrong.

You're wrong again.

Even now I do not believe you have read the whole game. But you are acting like you have.

[petroleumjelly]

Except you just acted like you had previously read and had thoughts on Post #1282, which was on page 52 of the game and literally a page before crazycrabman was lynched.

Yeah... when I read that I thought they were scum together... but he flipped town.

There are so many small issues with your posts since replacement it is almost difficult to parse it out.

->

a.)

It is not believable you joined the game and did not realize crazycrabman was lynched Day One. It strikes me as deliberately "look how crazy I am, I'm DrippingGoofball!"
->

b.)

In the same vein, your first two posts are completely at odds (you called Creature Town but then generalized that players "hunting for SK" are scum, when Creature was pretty much the only player who was actively making theories about who the SK could be).
->

b.)

Your "placeholder" scumreads as of "Page 10" are not very believable because many of the players in your "MKAY" and "SCUM" had a comparable amount of posts -- that is to say, hardly any.
->

d.)

After you voted for MarioManiac4, Creature pointed out a concern as to why MarioManiac4 might be Town. In response, you said that quote made you think MarioManiac4 might be scum with crazycrabman. Which -- beyond the fact that this suggests you have read that far into the game -- is rather a non sequitur given that crazycrabman has flipped Town. It does not address at all whether MarioManiac4 would still be scum in the event crazycrabman is Town. Essentially, you said nothing while dismissing a potential reason for thinking MarioManiac4 might be Town.

You are acting purposefully obtuse.

So what all have you

actually

read, then?

[petroleumjelly]

Mod

: Could you please prod atm487, Eggman, and MarioManiac4? Thanks.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

One of my best guesses for scum is actually atm487, but he has never gotten around to answering my questions and now he's being replaced. MarioManiac4 being replaced actually seems like a slight Towntell to me, though I don't think the reasoning for why is very 'good.'

2.)

I have not been terribly interested in the Infinity 324 v Dragon of the West argument. I think Infinity 324 has been overselling his arguments against Dragon of the West, while Dragon of the West is similarly overselling his defense. In other words: I do not think the case against Dragon of the West is particularly

strong

, though I do think there are points against him; Infinity 324 seems to be acting like there is more than there is. Dragon of the West has responded to these concerns, but is acting like he has somehow "proved" the case against him is wrong (when really, he has just responded to it). Dragon of the West has also made a couple of posts today where he has used the logic "I am Town, therefore your statement that includes me as scum is wrong in that respect and logically means X" that have not been great.

I will ask a question, though:

3.)

Infinity 324, could you please quote and explain why you think Dragon of the West has been "

over

defensive"? And why does that make him scum?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

One of my best guesses for scum is actually atm487, but he has never gotten around to answering my questions and now he's being replaced. MarioManiac4 being replaced actually seems like a slight Towntell to me, though I don't think the reasoning for why is very 'good.'

Can you explain why you think Mario being replaced is a towntell? regardless of how good the reasoning is

Because there is Daytalk in this game. If MarioManiac4 was simply lurking in-game while posting more frequently in a scum QT, I think the Mod would be less willing to replace him. Not great reasoning, and not reasoning I would hang my hat on if pushed.

I still do have a slight Townread on him, though. I have tried to compare his play in this game to some of his posting in Mini Normal #1744 Mafia Forum. In that QT where Daytalk was also available, MarioManiac4 seemed to have spurts of posting every few days and seemed fairly aware of in-game events. His play in the game itself (see Mini Normal #1744) generally seemed aggressive and revolved around interactivity (i.e., with a gameplan / coordination). That seems to be lacking in this game (i.e., he seems more lost / lacking motivation). Of course he

could

be scum who is similarly disinterested in the game, but the whole picture makes me lean Town on him.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

One of my best guesses for scum is actually atm487, but he has never gotten around to answering my questions and now he's being replaced. MarioManiac4 being replaced actually seems like a slight Towntell to me, though I don't think the reasoning for why is very 'good.'

Can you explain why you think Mario being replaced is a towntell? regardless of how good the reasoning is

Because there is Daytalk in this game. If MarioManiac4 was simply lurking in-game while posting more frequently in a scum QT, I think the Mod would be less willing to replace him. Not great reasoning, and not reasoning I would hang my hat on if pushed.

Mod said in first post that replacement happens if a player requests a replacement or gets prodded 3 times. Prods happen if a player doesn't talk in game and I don't think QTs matter. You're grasping straws which is scummy.

"Grasping at straws" for what? My

slight

Townread on MarioManiac4?

Additionally, MarioManiac4 has only been prodded twice over the course of the game (not three times), and there is no indication he requested replacement (unlike Smithereens, who the Mod explicitly told us requested replacement). By the rules of the game, it does not appear that MarioManiac4 should be replaced yet.

[petroleumjelly]

FoS: F-oh-ex

1.)

You still throw in something that undermines him. The fact that you claim townreading him is even more suspicious in conjuncture with it.
Wouldn't THIS time be the third prof for MM4=sub?

I'm not following the logic as to why this is "suspicious."

And no -- the prods that I recently requested on atm487, Eggman, and MarioManiac4 involved the second prod on MarioManiac4, not the third. You could have easily looked this up yourself.

2.)

Since we're on the topic of MarioManiac4, how about you explain your end of Day One vote?

As the deadline neared and directly before I left for V/LA, I broke the 4-vote tie between crazycrabman and MarioManiac4 by voting for MarioManiac4. You then hopped online and voted for crazycrabman. This brought the game to a 5-5 tie. You then looked into the situation and concluded that if a lynch is going to happen, somebody was going to have to compromise and switch their vote:

I think it's safe to assume that crazy and MM4 will crosslynch, unless they don't post at atll together. That would make the deciding vote... atm, who's on a leave of absence.

That means someone will have to switch wagons for the lynch to happen.

You

had the power right there to put MarioManiac4 at six votes, but you did not. As far as I can tell, you never even offered to.

Why?

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Ad. 2. If you had read my previous posts, you would know that I scumread crazy quite strongly while MM4 was a townlean to me. You think I need to "explain" why I voted my scumread over my townlean? And yes, I never offered to switch, quite a few people were sitting on the fence and offered to switch while my mind was made up.

I have read your previous posts, and I am aware you claimed to have a "Townlean" on MarioManiac4 and a "Scumlean" on crazycrabman. And I did read that you would shift from Creature to crazycrabman. Your reasoning seems to boil down to a single quote:

MM4 is somewhat of a townlean to me but that might stem from the fact I strongly scumread Creature and I don't see them as a duo. Compare and contrats with my scumread of crab who is mutually exclusive to be scum with Creature.

As far as I can tell, the fact that you did not think MarioManiac4 is paired with Creature was your only reasoning for thinking MarioManiac4 is Town. Which is not particularly strong reasoning when we were pushed up against a deadline and just need to lynch

somebody

. The fact that you set yourself up from switching from Creature to crazycrabman does not explain why you were seemingly unwilling to switch to voting for MarioManiac4.

2.)

And yes, I never offered to switch, quite a few people were sitting on the fence and offered to switch while my mind was made up.

That actually does not seem terribly accurate with the timeline. Before you made your post saying that "somebody has to switch," the only person who seemed on the fence enough to switch their vote was Dragon of the West:

Ah crap I didn't even get to check if the server was back up today. I spent all of yesterday constantly refreshing my browser. Due to the deadline being so close I'm gonna keep my vote on Mario while it has the most votes. I'm open to voting for a crazy lynch as well if it is the closest to getting the majority of votes needed near deadline. I'll be back in the morning to reread the thread from today and post final thoughts before deadline

Only afterwards did Eggman and Creature offer potential switch votes:

Intent to Hammer: MM4

If he's town, that would reluctantly make me townread Smithereens, who I've had suspicion on all game. If not, hooray.

I'll hammer whichever wagon gets 6 votes when the deadline is close, but if both are on 6 votes, I'll give preference to hammer MM4.

The basic gist here is that at the time you realized somebody had to compromise between crazycrabman and MarioManiac4, you made no move towards compromising.

3.)

F-oh-ex, what is

current

read on MarioManiac4? Additionally, can you go into more detail about what specifically you found scummy in my thinking there was a slight Towntell on him? Were you trying to imply that I am scum with MarioManiac4? Or that I was trying to establish a "fake" Townread on him?

4.)

Sorry, when I updated my ruleset, I somehow removed the explicit info that players will also be replaced after failing to respond to a prod (which you do by posting in the gamethread within 24 hours of receiving the prod), which was the case with the last 2 replacements. Mario has yet to even read the PM (I'm pretty sure I didn't miss some VLA notice).

For the record, this does remove the potential Towntell for MarioManiac4's replacement.

[petroleumjelly]

I would like f-oh-ex to explain his reads more, but petroleum, can you explain why what you pointed out is alignment indicative?

Please be more specific with your question.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

You said f-oh-ex gave weak reasoning for why he scum reads crazy over mario, I don't really see how that is alignment indicative.

I'm also not sure why not vote switching to compromise is scummy, I and a few others did the same thing even though it was clear someone had to switch. I was really hoping mario would get lynched.

I don't remember saying it was necessarily alignment indicative. For now I am asking questions. He could be stubborn Town; he could be scum with an agenda.

2.)

Creature, you have ignored this question twice. But I find I still want an answer to it. What do you think of Eggman?

[petroleumjelly]

Not sure I really have time for this game. If I can't make time to read and post in the next couple days, I will request replacement. In the middle of buying a house (among other things), so my time has been severely crunched.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

For the players (Titus and DrippingGoofball) who have asked what they should read from Day One and do not plan on reading the entire game, I would suggest:

->

a.)

The Eggman wagon. The first vote was placed by Creature in Post #197. The wagon started to fall apart at L-1 after Robbnva unvoted in Post #441.

->

b.)

As the Eggman wagon subsided, there was a slight push on both Creature and crazycrabman you can look at after the Robbnva unvote.

->

c.)

After the forum was down for a few days, there was some frantic posting as the deadline neared. The votes really start flying when Dwlee99 points out how close the deadline is in Post #1187. I would suggest at least reading from that point until the end of Day One.

Of course there are also some one-on-one arguments I am glossing over, but to me most of them seemed to be players talking past each other (e.g., Creature "lying" about Eggman crumbing; Infinity 324 "slipping" because on his list of players his "third scummiest" was a Townlean). I personally find the votes (or lack thereof) and pushing for votes more interesting.

2.)

Eggman, please place me in your latest Read List. Also, I will ask you not to color code your reads like that -- I have a particularly difficult time reading your yellow text without highlighting it.

3.)

Eggman and Infinity 324: you have both pressed on Titus for not reading the entire game. Is there a reason you are not similarly pressing DrippingGoofball for not reading the entire game? They have both literally said they prefer to hunt through direct interactions.

4.)

I'm not sure who the third mafioso could be, but I'm pretty sure on {DGB, NJAC}.

A question to the more experienced players from a newb: I know the consensus day 1 was that there are 3 Mafia but since it's apparently a multiball or SK exists, can we be still sure of this? I don't think it's a scumslip per se but this post rubs me wrong.

Technically, there are three possibilities. There could be a Scum group (of 2 or 3 players) and a SK. There could be a Scum group and a Vigilante. Or there could be two separate Scum groups of 2 players each.

Right now, it is largely not necessary to determine which of those three worlds we live in. Likely the only time it would become relevant is if (i) somebody posts in such a way to indicate they have more knowledge about scum than a Townsperson should (or they seem to be pretending to

not

have such knowledge), or (ii) somebody claims to be a killing role.

The base assumption should be that there is a 3-player scum group and an additional killing role, if only to avoid everybody having to caveat everything they say.

5.)

Eggman, how do you know about Neapolitan (Cop) roles? And why have you only seemingly noticed F-oh-ex mentioning his favorite flavor is Neapolitan

now

, as opposed to earlier in the game? Has something changed?

6.)

Somebody sell me on the Creature case. I have a Townlean on him. Why is he scum? I do not find the "lying" about the Eggman crumb persuasive in the slightest. I do not think his Day One hunting by "process of elimination" is scummy. I assume there is more meat on the bone?

[petroleumjelly]

We have less than three days until deadline.

I personally like the DrippingGoofball wagon.

Smithereens had three strange pushes on Day One for lynches: trying to get Creature to put Eggman back at L-1; trying to bargain with Robbnva to lynch Creature Day One in exchange for lynching crazycrabman on Day Two (which is also 'setting up lynches'); and trying to get me to vote for crazycrabman at the end of Day One over MarioManiac4 because the players voting for MarioManiac4 were 'nincompoops'. All of these pushes felt like there was an agenda behind them, and Townspeople on the whole do not play with agendas. Coupled with Smithereens' point-of-view that players should always play "towards their win-con," this suggests that Smithereens pushes are even more likely to have an agenda (or pushing towards a win-con). DrippingGoofball's replacement into that slot has not inspired me for reasons I have already mentioned, and her latest antics ("help me bus my scumbuddy!") do nothing to help my opinion of her.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Have I asked for a more detailed explanation already? To me it seems lynching SK is great too because we drop from 2 NKs to just 1. Or do YOU have something against lynching SK?

Suppose there is 3 Scum and 1 SK.

If we lynch the SK today and there is a nightkill on Town (the only reasonable assumption), we drop down to 8 players with 3 Mafia remaining which puts in a constant state of Mislynch-and-Lose (assuming a nightkill is not prevented or missed).

If we lynch mafia today, then we suddenly open up another way for us to kill scum: by scum killing each other at night.

Put another way: if we lynch SK, then we also probably have to manually lynch every scum in the game without being wrong once. That is incredibly unlikely. Instead, we need to bank on the natural balance of the game, which in effect relies on scum nightkilling each other. A single crosskill is as good as a correct lynch; and a correct lynch followed by a crosskill is even better. The best part is (for us), is that is also to the scum's advantage to attempt to crosskill. Having three factions in a game has a way of oddly 'balancing' because each faction has to keep the other factions in check. Having more nightkills definitely takes things out of our hands to an extent, but it actually increases our chances of winning on the whole.

2.)

I don't see how "setting up lynches" is as horrible as you make it out to be.

Setting up lynches is quite bad when there is not information to support it. Here, Smithereens made a bargain to lynch one player Day One (with presumably no information) in exchange in lynching another player Day Two (based on no information while also promising to essentially ignore information gained during Night One). In this case, Smithereens offered to lynch Creature in exchange for lynching crazycrabman. We already know that lynching crazycrabman was not going to work in our favor, and it's possible Creature is Town as well. If Smithereens is scum it's a path to victory; if Smithereens is Town it was tying himself to a bad bargain for bad reasons. It is bad play.

There

are

situations where "setting up lynches" is fine, but those generally involve using logic based on known information --

not

as a method of bargaining.

3.)

Also, you accused me of not wanting to shift lynch and now you accuse Smith of tryign to persuade you to shift?

I am uncertain if you are purposefully playing dense.

You

realized that people

needed

to shift their votes in order to help reach a lynch. You had the power to put a player at L-1 instead of tying the votes. And yet you never offered to do so. That is at best antitown.

Smithereens

actively tried to get other people to join particular wagons, going so far as bargaining/setting up lynches to do so. The argument put down at the end of Day One was especially bad:

discounting the voters on the MM4 wagon who know how to read MM4, there isn't anyone voting MM4. So not much of a wagon in other words. There's nothing wrong with that logic.

Both players literally had four votes on them, but Smithereens tried to act like there was not a "real" wagon on MarioManiac4 as an argument for voting for crazycrabman instead. Given that crazycrabman was lynched and flipped Town, this reflects rather poorly. Also of note, the end of Day One was literally the

first time

Smithereens had ever directly mentioned MarioManiac4. And rather than talking about MarioManiac4, Smithereens instead attacked the people

voting

for MarioManiac4.

4.)

Couple that with MarioManiac4's analysis of Smithereens:

Smithereens- nothing really of note.

... and I think there is a

more

than plausible scum-pairing. You (F-oh-ex) actually seem like a very plausible third, given that your entire game has pretty much been (i) attacking Creature and Eggman, (ii) switching to crazycrabman without offering to vote MarioManiac4, (iii) softly defending MarioManiac4 a few times during Day One, and (iv) what looked like a

very

strange attempt at tying me to MarioManiac4 just earlier by accusing of me of "grasping at straws" and being "suspicious" for considering various factors in whether MarioManiac4 might be Town or Scum.

To clarify, the soft defenses:

Okay then.

I think Mario is acting different from when I played with town!him, do you think he's showing hesitance in his reads?

That's your second read (after atm) where your only base is your previous game with that person. I don't feel like trusting this too much.

...

Akigoku is most likely going to be replaced.

Eggman's posts feel like scum questioning, but at least he's trying.

MarioManiac4's reads look pure noise.

Smithereens looks opportunistic, but I am open to believe he might've misrepresented me.

stelo did an RVS vote but hasn't commented in the discussion I had with Robbnva.

The only reads MM4 gave were on atm and Derek. Not much of a noise. In fact, he posted 3 times total.

And you pretty much haven't otherwise talked about MarioManiac4 except to mention that he is a Townlean. From the looks of it, the three of you are playing a game of "don't touch each other." But I think you're busted.

~~~~

I think there is at least one scumpair in {DrippingGoofball (Smithereens), F-oh-ex, and MarioManiac4 (NJAC)}. These are my preferred votes. I feel strongest about the Smithereens/DrippingGoofball slot.

// Edited formatting error on request - Sméagol

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

petroleum, how about we lynch NJAC today, and when he flips scum, we can look into DGB? I think DGB and smith displayed a careless attitude that's more likely to come from town, but it's possible you're right.

If my analysis is correct, it largely hinges on Smithereens (now DrippingGoofball) being scum unless it is F-oh-ex/MarioManiac4 (now NJAC). I otherwise have a slight Townread on MarioManiac4's (now NJAC's) slot. That said, I preferred MarioManiac4's Day One play to NJAC's play. I may be overdue in adjusting my read.

2.)

Does vig instead of SK change your theories at all?

No. I am hunting for the scumgroup.

3.)

Also PJ, aside from me, if you were a vig, who would you vig?

On Night One, I would have vigged Robbnva. If you are asking who I would vig tonight (assuming I had a second shot), then that is not a question I am going to answer.

4.)

One more for you PJ.

I die and flip town. Who is the scum then?

I would need to reassess the game. But the first players I would at least look at are F-oh-ex/MarioManiac4 (NJAC), atm483 (Titus), and Dragon of the West.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Dragon of the West, earlier you balked at switching from Creature because he was the "wagon with the most votes." Now that Creature does not have the most votes you are still preferring to keep your vote on him as opposed to switching to NJAC. Why?

2.)

F-oh-ex, what are your thoughts on NJAC/MarioManiac4 today?

3.)

F-oh-ex, what are your thoughts on Dragon of the West?

4.)

F-oh-ex, what are your thoughts on DrippingGoofball/Smithereens? You mentioned that DrippingGoofball "shook" your Townread on Smithereens but that you were going to "hold on your final opinion" until you read the slot more closely.

[petroleumjelly]

Your avatar is so adorable I want to be friends with you but I don't think that's happening :c

And I asked you some questions. Please answer them.

[petroleumjelly]

I preferred MarioManiac4's Day One play to NJAC's play

Why is that?

Largely because MarioManiac4 did not crossvote with crazycrabman at the end of Day One. It was a little gesture that makes me think he is more likely to be Town. I can believe he was a Townie disinterested in the game. I had semi-compared his play here to another game where he was scum, and near the end of Day One I asked him questions specifically to try to compare his play here to there.

Since you have replaced in, your play has largely consisted of promises to read the game (which you still have not done) and sarcastic comments towards players' reads. You are now the second player in that slot who seems to be in a constant state of "needing to catch up" and based on your posting you likely won't start giving helpful reads until we are pushed up against another deadline.

[petroleumjelly]

I preferred MarioManiac4's Day One play to NJAC's play

Why is that?

Largely because MarioManiac4 did not crossvote with crazycrabman at the end of Day One. It was a little gesture that makes me think he is more likely to be Town. I can believe he was a Townie disinterested in the game. I had semi-compared his play here to another game where he was scum, and near the end of Day One I asked him questions specifically to try to compare his play here to there.

Since you have replaced in, your play has largely consisted of promises to read the game (which you still have not done) and sarcastic comments towards players' reads. You are now the second player in that slot who seems to be in a constant state of "needing to catch up" and based on your posting you likely won't start giving helpful reads until we are pushed up against another deadline.

Correction: I did not ask MarioManiac4 questions to compare his play near the end of Day One. That was done at the start of Day Two. His answers (Post #1404) sound honest enough (and boil down to "I play every game a bit different depending on the situation"), and are not very alignment-indicative. That was also the last day he posted, and he has not posted on the site since that day. On the whole it looks less like lurking and more like disinterest.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

I dislike how he has stayed on the sideline with an icky vote on dgb, furthermore from what I just isoed he didn't enter the main wagon on that crabmeat yesterday either. Suspicious stuff all around

Let's expand on this:

Why is my vote on DrippingGoofball bad/suspicious? How have I "stayed on the sideline"? Why was not voting for crazycrabman suspicious?

2.)

Really wishing I could push a wagon on F-oh-ex at this point. He seems to be actively avoiding me in his recent posts, and has added pretty much nothing to the game (except apparently 'prodge' posts) for the last week. It's looking to me like he's waiting out the replacement/deadline.

[petroleumjelly]

I believe the vote count is:

NJAC - 4 - Eggman, Titus, Infinity324, Shiro
Shiro - 4 - F-oh-ex, Dragon of the West, Derek12, DrippingGoofball
DrippingGoofball - 1 - petroleumjelly, NJAC

~

1.)

DrippingGoofball, your vote is on Shiro (Creature) and yet you have most recently said we should "hammer" NJAC. Why isn't your vote there, then?

2.)

DrippingGoofball, I fail to understand why your vote is on Shiro (Creature) in the first place. Here is what you have had to say about Creature's slot over the course of your replacement up to your vote:

Creature is town

Placeholder reads... I'm only on page 10.

TOWN

Smithereens < DGB
Creature
Dragon of the West

MKAY

F-oh-ex
Derek12
Eggman
petroleumjelly < stelo
Infinity 324 < Akigoku

SCUM

atm487
crazycrabman
MarioManiac

And, seriously? Two people are voting Creature???

VOTE: crabman

Creature, who is scum, I will sheep.

Right now we have this:

DrippingGoofball [1]: petroleumjelly
Creature [3]: F-oh-ex / Dragon of the West / Derek12
NJAC [2]: Eggman / DrippingGoofball
Dragon of the West [1]: Infinity 324
Titus [1]: Creature

I will theorize that were Creature scum, scum would bus and the lynch would happen faster. No scum is dead yet and the scum must be hungering for towncred. Why don't F-oh-ex / Dragon of the West try moving their votes around? Or anyone else?

OK NJAC is town

VOTE: Creature

Please explain to me how you went from all your posts declaring/assuming Creature is Town to suddenly voting for them when it actually matters.

[petroleumjelly]

Please explain to me how you went from all your posts declaring/assuming Creature is Town to suddenly voting for them when it actually matters.

inorite

I keep changing my mind

I'm like a dog at the squirrel zoo

Hahaha, that's so funny!

Now please explain why you voted for Shiro (Creature).

[petroleumjelly]

Please explain to me how you went from all your posts declaring/assuming Creature is Town to suddenly voting for them when it actually matters.

inorite

I keep changing my mind

I'm like a dog at the squirrel zoo

Hahaha, that's so funny!

Now please explain why you voted for Shiro (Creature).

Creature posts a lot but was lurking at the time.

Wrong. At the time you placed your vote, the deadline had been rescinded specifically because Creature was in the process of being replaced. So why did you vote for Creature?