Mini 1805 [C'est fini!]

[MarioManiac4]

five pages already. why do you do this to me mafiascum

[MarioManiac4]

Well other than a slight(EMPASIS ON SLIGHT) scum read on Robb, I can't think on who to vote for

I was going to vote for atm based on Page 3 but his recent posts are much better, so this is where I'm at right now.

[MarioManiac4]

Well, most of you are right that there's content. The problem is the serious lack of alignment-indicative content.
Derek, though, has a muddy ISO. Most of it is trying to "stay in the flow" and joke with Dwlee. His f-oh-ex vote is bad. He hasn't posted real content at this point, yet criticised Fox for doing so.
VOTE: Derek12
I'll be chilling here.

[MarioManiac4]

VOTE: MarioManiac4

Let's go here, his play here is WAY different than his town play I know.

Shocker; I don't play the same way every game.
The last game was blitz, so I wanted to get the ball rolling- and I saw something I could do it with. Here, we had two weeks.
I think you'll find most of my games are like this, but I guess you just want to base your meta off very few games!

[MarioManiac4]

I want more from Dwlee on his crab case because I'm really not seeing it.
I'm definitely going to be more active this weekend, but I should be here more tonight too.

[MarioManiac4]

I want more from Dwlee on his crab case because I'm really not seeing it.
I'm definitely going to be more active this weekend, but I should be here more tonight too.

I think it's safe to say we all want more from you. Pretty ballsy to ask others for more info when you haven't done much.

Not really. I haven't posted much mostly because I don't have many reads from this scenario. He established a read and is bandwagoning it but isn't really offering an explanation.

[MarioManiac4]

I want more from Dwlee on his crab case because I'm really not seeing it.
I'm definitely going to be more active this weekend, but I should be here more tonight too.

I think it's safe to say we all want more from you. Pretty ballsy to ask others for more info when you haven't done much.

Not really. I haven't posted much mostly because I don't have many reads from this scenario. He established a read and is bandwagoning it but isn't really offering an explanation.

[MarioManiac4]

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

Interesting... why did you think this is true?

[MarioManiac4]

Hi guys, been following the thread, here are my thoughts so far

Eggman - Looks like noobtown to me, I don't like how fast the wagon on him formed, and crumbing VT seems more like silly town than weird scum
Creature - Probably my strongest townread, he seems to be very open with his thoughts and actively scumhunting. His thoughts on leaving the egg wagon mirrored my thoughts at the time.
Dragon of the West - Also seems open, brings up good points and genuine-looking thoughts
atm - Probably confused town but I'm not sure
Dwlee - Really liked his activity early on so he's probably town, just wish he would stop being lazy
Derek - null. I like his pushes, but some of his posts don't seem to be doing very much and my gut says he might be scum
MarioManiac - null leaning scum for gut
F-oh-ex - Probably town because the depth of his analysis is more likely to come from town and his emotions seem genuine
crazycrab - I was scumreading him up until recently, but the thing about him trying to change his playstyle doesn't seem faked, and his comment along the lines of "I don't know what I can do to make you townread me" is very classic town frustration for being wagoned.
Robbnva - null leaning scum, it's kinda worrying that he hasn't done anything particularly towny yet since he's been very active. Also, his logic-based scumhunting style seems almost too easy--he's very experienced so he should know that town often uses bad logic, perhaps more than scum does.
Smithereens - null leaning town, for his aggressiveness. Something feels off about him to me, not sure what it is though

VOTE: MarioManiac let's do it.

PEdit: What's up creature

So you have two scumreads- me and Robbvna. You say that i'm null, leaning scum because of gut, and then give legitimate reasons for scumreading Robb. Why?
Or are you hopping on a bandwagon you saw pop up?
I notice you say later you want to crack Creature- so why don't you vote him yourself?

[MarioManiac4]

You aren't even trying to establish reads. Right now your play is p.much textbook active lurking

I haven't actually been that active, as people have noted about ten million times, and I'm trying to correct that this weekend. C'mon, if you're going to apply useless buzzwords to my play at least make them correct.

[MarioManiac4]

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

Interesting... why did you think this is true?

Which part of it? Getting you to give more or thinking they can't be on a scum team together?

The vote getting me to give more. I don't see how it would work.

[MarioManiac4]

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

Interesting... why did you think this is true?

Which part of it? Getting you to give more or thinking they can't be on a scum team together?

The vote getting me to give more. I don't see how it would work.

The idea was for a few people to put a vote on you and maybe get you to respond to those votes and put forth something useful. I feel like that's pretty self explanatory and it was worth a try

But you literally said that it was just to pressure me in the public thread.

[MarioManiac4]

Well, here's my reads if people want them.
Smithereens- nothing really of note.
Derek- this was my first scumread and I still maintain it. He's spent almost all of his time voting crazycrab, although he seems to be active. He then seems to push Eggman primarily while the wagon was the most popular- after it fades away his attention on Eggman vanishes and he goes back to crab. He doesn't seem to be posting about anyone but crab. I can understand this if he has limited time online but it doesn't seem like he is, and even if he is I've found as scum, when I do have limited time, I focus on mostly my push and trying to validate it without pushing any other cases, rather than trying to generalize and find good cases (which is what I would do as town)- I'm not the same person as Derek but I think it's an instinct many would have. This is a somewhat bad scumread but it's lower than null nevertheless.

Eggman- "do you think there are 3 scum in a 13p game" is bad. I dislike 199, specifically the part where he says "I wanted to make a post to show that I was reading." Town don't really feel like justifying anything, but scum are generally always on the lookout for their own survival- or newer ones are anyhow. In 267 he says he's not aware of how to scumhunt. This is kinda a serious problem and you'd think he'd have figured it out in his three completed games. Sure enough, a quick look at "Celestial Mafia" where he is actively trying to scumhunt. He is aware of how to scumhunt. This strangely seems to drop, with Creature coming in with a townread on Eggman with a read that doesn't make sense.

crazycrab- I can see the scumminess of this slot when I open the ISO but it isn't hard to put into words- I might be seeing something different. crazycrab is commenting on different light reads. Post 173 is especially over the top, with "feel" appearing twice, along with its old comrade "from my experience". Yet he does make a good point about Eggman- although that isn't hard to fake if Eggman is town. He then follows this up by defending him slightly- this could indicate they are scumbuddies. His #254 is valid, but #173 is still bad. Later on, #515 is bad. If he thought the push was stupid, why didn't he say so instead of just saying that it was probably a SvS and the two most discussed players at the time were his top scumreads, along with those who hadn't posted?
"I think the problem we are having is that while many people read just off people's ISO, I believe that we should consider all the possibilities before we make a decision. I don't know if this is a good strategy because I have only tested it on one game, but it is what seems most fair to me."- this means that he has tested this strategy he is apparently using before. He makes the next few posts about his strategy; a musing by Fohex on crab's Dwlee read turns into a criticism on his strategy, and then says that he was "testing" a strategy in this game? 1)- you said you'd tested it before? and 2)- what's all this talk about strategy about? This game is a scumhunting game, and just because people thought your explanations weren't good enough doesn't mean you should hide your reasoning so that you can keep reads that are unsatisfying to other people?
Y'know, this makes me think- what is he planning to do this game if not explaining his reads? Explaining reads is the way to get your scumreads lynched, and if he's not planning to explain his reads, is he just planning to just state his reads and skate by the whole game? This post's scummy.
#600- why does he listen to a few criticisms of his strategy?

I'm going to post this to get it out there and aim to get the rest of my reads up asap.

[MarioManiac4]

Well, here's my reads if people want them.
Smithereens- nothing really of note.
Derek- this was my first scumread and I still maintain it. He's spent almost all of his time ivoting crazycrab, although he seems to be active. He then seems to push Eggman primarily while the wagon was the most popular- after it fades away his attention on Eggman vanishes and he goes back to crab. He doesn't seem to be posting about anyone but crab. I can understand this if he has limited time online but it doesn't seem like he is, and even if he is I've found as scum, when I do have limited time, I focus on mostly my push and trying to validate it without pushing any other cases, rather than trying to generalize and find good cases (which is what I would do as town)- I'm not the same person as Derek but I think it's an instinct many would have. This is a somewhat bad scumread but it's lower than null nevertheless.

Eggman- "do you think there are 3 scum in a 13p game" is bad. I dislike 199, specifically the part where he says "I wanted to make a post to show that I was reading." Town don't really feel like justifying anything, but scum are generally always on the lookout for their own survival- or newer ones are anyhow. In 267 he says he's not aware of how to scumhunt. This is kinda a serious problem and you'd think he'd have figured it out in his three completed games. Sure enough, a quick look at "Celestial Mafia" where he is actively trying to scumhunt. He is aware of how to scumhunt. This strangely seems to drop, with Creature coming in with a townread on Eggman with a read that doesn't make sense.

crazycrab- I can see the scumminess of this slot when I open the ISO but it isn't hard to put into words- I might be seeing something different. crazycrab is commenting on different light reads. Post 173 is especially over the top, with "feel" appearing twice, along with its old comrade "from my experience". Yet he does make a good point about Eggman- although that isn't hard to fake if Eggman is town. He then follows this up by defending him slightly- this could indicate they are scumbuddies. His #254 is valid, but #173 is still bad. Later on, #515 is bad. If he thought the push was stupid, why didn't he say so instead of just saying that it was probably a SvS and the two most discussed players at the time were his top scumreads, along with those who hadn't posted?
"I think the problem we are having is that while many people read just off people's ISO, I believe that we should consider all the possibilities before we make a decision. I don't know if this is a good strategy because I have only tested it on one game, but it is what seems most fair to me."- this means that he has tested this strategy he is apparently using before. He makes the next few posts about his strategy; a musing by Fohex on crab's Dwlee read turns into a criticism on his strategy, and then says that he was "testing" a strategy in this game? 1)- you said you'd tested it before? and 2)- what's all this talk about strategy about? This game is a scumhunting game, and just because people thought your explanations weren't good enough doesn't mean you should hide your reasoning so that you can keep reads that are unsatisfying to other people?
Y'know, this makes me think- what is he planning to do this game if not explaining his reads? Explaining reads is the way to get your scumreads lynched, and if he's not planning to explain his reads, is he just planning to just state his reads and skate by the whole game? This post's scummy.
#600- why does he listen to a few criticisms of his strategy?

I'm going to post this to get it out there and aim to get the rest of my reads up asap.

Robb we can.compromise on infinity or we could lynch the scum picking all the low hanging fruit andbscum reading them and for some reason just mentioning smithereens??

Umm...
1.smithereens was the first in the playerlist so I started with them.
2. I am actually going to read some more people. These came to mind as the people who have had wagons- people gave their opinions on them earlier, so I decided to look at them earlier. You're sorely mistaken if you think I'm not gonna scumread anyone else.

[MarioManiac4]

VOTE: MarioManiac4

I don't think you're trying to comment on the current situation.

You'd be somewhat correct. Your ISOs are long things. Luckily for you that's happening tonight.

[MarioManiac4]

Robbvna- Early points and post 80 are good. And after this, I see practically nothing scummy in the slot. Robb is asking questions, and there's not much leverage for a strong read apart from the strong feeling he's trying to solve the game.
Creature- Starts the Eggman wagon. He then tries to meta from 1 game- do you think this is particularly useful Creature? His case on me is that I don't use the same style every game- not that I was using a style at that point. I don't particularly like that at all but it might be bias. So he goes on a crusade against lurkers, and he says it's unlikely scum was claim VT. He calls him a mislynch bait after 1 game in which he was mislynched and he thinks the crumb couldn't be planned- this is bad too.
In post 404:
"Let me see:
- stelo and Akigoku did absolutely nothing.
- MarioManiac4 has just talked about his meta but stopped giving contributions.
- It's creepy how much tunneling there were.
- We have 7 days.
- I still think Eggman will flip town."
1. And this is scummy, unusual or worth mentioning?
2. I was bogged down with irl at that time. I didn't have much time to read through, and most of what I did see seemed null, so I defended myself from wrong accussations. You're trying to make it seem as if I was talking about my meta, rather than reply to your reason for voting me?
3. What? People looked at Eggman because he was scummy; I don't particularly think there was much tunnelling?
4. Correct, but we don't have to use all of it. That just creates apathy and more time for scum to discuss their nightkill; if the day's over make it over.
5. He crumbed VT in an obscure way that he could point to- do you think Eggman couldn't think of that? I think he could.

His POE list is NAI.
Smith asks Creature questions and the results are telling to me. The push on Smith is related to Smith calling Creature a newb, which doesn't really discredit his reads.
@1006; I mean, when I looked at the Smith ISO I mostly saw reads and comments; nothing solid to grasp on. A bit like Rob actually.
"I don't think you're trying to comment on the current situation."- and that is scummy, how?

Also, I'm catching up which you might see if you read my posts, instead of me being busy and finding things null for a while being OMGSCUM. Yeah, I doubt all the people you've called "active-lurkers" have flipped scum.

[MarioManiac4]

Normally I'd call that beetlejuice but idk if he could have typed that up so fast.

Catchup posts won't change my mind though cause those are easily faked. My vote will change when the inactivity stops and there's real effort being made in an attempt to interact and scum hunt.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7889613 if you want an example of me getting bogged down irl, although it's not as extreme.

you want my thoughts on the current situation? just from reading the topic review i can tell you that you should calm down and that neither rome or a scum lynch was built in a night. I'm going to have to disagree with infinity's sig here and say that looks a lot like AtE. my thoughts should expand tomorrow tho

[MarioManiac4]

I'm Vt, catching up after forum was down.

[MarioManiac4]

@2127, when establishing fact I only need one piece of certain evidence. Someone gave intent to hammer btw

[MarioManiac4]

Just to be clear, because I think you referred to me among others, by saying "Creature and Crab are mutually exclusive scumreads" I mean that I have a scumread on both of them but I do NOT see them as partners so one of them flipping scum would be a towntell for the other one in my eyes.

Yes. So if Crabman flips scum, then we can call Creature town.
(Of course, I forgot about MM4. If that lynch gets traction, I'll support it, because Smithereens.)

Why are you jumping on my wagon over something that's easily explained.
To clarify; Smithereens was top of the playerlist so I started there, but I changed my mind once I realised I wouldn't get through everyone in one night. So I reviewed my previous scumread and players who had been subject to attention in the past, intending to then move onto the present.

[MarioManiac4]

wtf

If you're townreading atm487, why you want to policy lynch him later?

you don't understand this? really?

[MarioManiac4]

This post is a bit of a mess, so apologies in advance. I just don't have time to organize my thoughts or my post right now very clearly.

~

From MarioManiac4's catch-up posts:

->

a.)

In Post #1002 I do not agree with his summarization of Derek12's play. MarioManiac4 paints Derek12 as spending all of his time pursuing crazycrabman ("he doesn't seem to be posting about anyone but crab"), while Derek12 has very clearly been poking at other players and asking them questions. He also states that Derek12 seemed to push the Eggman wagon at it's peak, and that does not appear to be true at all.

I agree that Eggman seemed much more involved and proactive in Celestia Mafia at a glance (and see below).

And I do agree that crazycrabman claiming to have a "strategy" is concerning in itself (since by and large, only scum really think about "strategies" to get through the Day). But I think this comes down to the use of the word "strategy"; I think "playstyle" is more accurate for what crazycrabman is describing.

->

b.)

I also don't understand why Smithereens was included (and then not analyzed) by MarioManiac4. He later mentioned that Smithereens was "first on the playlist," but if that was the determining factor I would think he would continue going down the playlist, which he did not do.

->

c.)

In Post #1105, MarioManiac4 criticizes Creature for trying to meta Eggman from "1 game," which is a strange criticism seeing as MarioManiac's analysis of Eggman just earlier seemed to be based on "1 game" (Celestial Mafia).

~

While scanning Eggman's posts in Celestial Mafia (see above), I came across a couple interesting tidbits:

Biscuitoid: He's just giving me newbie vibes. True Neutral. (Although, claiming VT on Day 1 is a bad bad move, for future reference.)

Claiming VT is useless. I don't know about you guys, but as a mafioso I would never claim VT.

I am a Vanilla Townie. Oh, only other acceptable time for VT to claim: in "roleclaim or die", or LYLO.

From the looks of it, Eggman was eventually run up Day One, claimed Townie, and eventually hammered himself in order to help Town achieve a lynch. On the one hand, given the above quotes, I am less inclined to think Eggman is scum in this game. But on the other hand, Eggman really

was

much more proactive and helpful in that game than this one. Eggman, could you please elaborate on your thoughts of claiming Vanilla Townie on Day One? And if you do not think it is acceptable to

claim

Townie on Day One, why do you think it is acceptable to

crumb

Townie on Day One?

~

Additionally, Creature, I noticed you were scum in that game, so I trust you are more familiar with Eggman's play. Do these quotes from Eggman influence your opinion of him? Did you remember them while playing this game?

a- There was notes for different times. At the start he was mostly just pursuing crabman, but he did do other things too.
b- Explained this in a post I just made, if anyone's too lazy to look back I started with Smith, didn't think I would finish and resolved to put out my contribution to past discussions.
c- Wasn't analysis, simply a fact I checked.

[MarioManiac4]

Intent to Hammer: MM4

If he's town, that would reluctantly make me townread Smithereens, who I've had suspicion on all game. If not, hooray.

This is the post I claimed for fyi. I was on phone at that time.

[MarioManiac4]

I'm Vt, catching up after forum was down.

@2127, when establishing fact I only need one piece of certain evidence. Someone gave intent to hammer btw

Can't believe this is all you got to say.

It isn't really. I just dont have much access at GMT evening/night.

[MarioManiac4]

If anyone's here I'd appreciate it if you could post so I can discuss live. It actually sorta helped when I was on at the same time as robb. If it was in the past it'd be hard to analyse but in the current moment it appeared town to me.

[MarioManiac4]

I notice you're online Creature.

[MarioManiac4]

I'm here but don't have much to say atm. You have been active lurking all game and the posts you have made don't make me feel better about your slot.

Do you believe "active lurking" is actually useful? To me it's really just a bland buzzword. I couldn't find a foothold in the game and everything just looked neutral, so I've never got that involved. But you wave the word around as if it's a cop guilty.

[MarioManiac4]

MM4

Why aren't you voting your counterwagon?

Because crab could be a PR, and I doubt people are going to reconsider their reads on me.

[MarioManiac4]

alright, so let me just butt in here.
are you guys going to listen to what i say at all? are you going to consider not instawagoning me on d2 if crab flips town, which is definitely a possibility?
because if not, it might even be better to just lynch me now. better a town slot is dead than a town slot alive that cannot contribute.

[MarioManiac4]

5.)

MarioManiac4, could you try to honestly summarize how you think you play as Town, how you think you play as scum, and then how you think you have played this game?

Additionally, what would you say you more commonly claim when you are scum? Do you tend towards claiming power roles?

I think my play as Town varies depending on the gamestate. Sometimes I just fail to get in, sometimes I chase someone looking to get out of RVS and sometimes I just chill and pick out things that are scummy. I can't really give you only one answer for that.
As for scum, I usually pick out someone to tunnel and pick on them actively for the first few days.
I think in this game, life has got through, I haven't got a foothold, and my play has been poor as a result.
As scum, I've never really been in a position where I were to claim D1 but if I were, I could claim VT or PR depending on the situation. Like, if PRs had already claimed I would claim VT, but if we had safeclaims I'd claim PR. In the majority of games in which it'd be even I would most likely follow my scumbuddies.

[MarioManiac4]

petroleum makes an excellent point in #1400, by the way. now that it's very likely we have a SK, the chances of egg being both sk and mafia rise, because if there are 2 mafia, and he hasn't played a 13p before, he might not bother to find out the normal number- or he might think that when there's sk there should be two mafia.

in which case he was entirely correct. 9v3v1;
*Mafia gets lynched; 9v2v1
*Two town die; 7v2v1
*Mafia gets lynched; 5v2v1
*Two town die again; 3v1v1
*Mafia gets lynched; 3v1
*A town dies; 2v1
Just like that, without mislynching, town is in LYLO. 3maf/1sk puts the game into nightplay way too much and needs some serious townpower to counteract it even if mini normals didn't already lean towards being scumsided.