Mini 1805 [C'est fini!]

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: Dwlee99

[Dragon of the West]

Hello, everyone! General question: what's your favorite dessert?
VOTE: Creature (I won't lurk this time if you don't.)

I really like brownie bottom pie with vanilla ice cream and whipped cream

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: Dragon

ayyeee he's here

[Dragon of the West]

More votes on Smithereens would be good.

are you trying to start a wagon or just get more out of them? (seeing as they only have 2 posts and i frankly can't get enough from that to place a legitimate vote)

[Dragon of the West]

I'll give Dwlee benefit of doubt and assume he's being antagonistic for the sake of arguments/activity. Not an ideal tact imo given all the activity, so take the hint.

he's gonna play that way regardless of what you say to him

[Dragon of the West]

More votes on Smithereens would be good.

are you trying to start a wagon or just get more out of them? (seeing as they only have 2 posts and i frankly can't get enough from that to place a legitimate vote)

agree with this somewhat, however the post he made about creature I agreed with so I don't see what creature's issue is unless it's omgus.

yeah i didn't have a problem with Smithereens' thought on creature early. Creature did try to make a case on smithereens though so let me go back and read it

[Dragon of the West]

First Thoughts: 'Damn 3 pages already this game is hella active'
*reads the game*
3 people engaged in small chat... :\


VOTE: Creature
Somewhat serious vote, not entirely RVS. There's absolutely no way you're getting a town read from the very first post a person makes in the game. If you could I'd just copy/paste that post everywhere I went as scum and you'd be none the wiser. Possible that Creature is buddying, I don't like how he talks about 'early town activity' or some shit like that as if he's trying to seem a part of it.

This post fits perfectly a scum being opportunistic. Robbnva is having problems with early townreads, so what would stop scum from supporting him and make stupid lynches?

if you're arguing that scum is supporting him when he's having trouble with early reads, that would make scum exposed and we could just look at people jumping onto wagons with no real information. also, they made a legitimate argument given how early we were in the game when they posted this.
And what would stop them from making stupid lynches? hopefully everyone else needing information before blindly jumping on wagons. i dunno man, your point feels forced

[Dragon of the West]

He did? Oh I missed that post somehow. I'll have to read it later

i didn't like the case he made

[Dragon of the West]

I think the point creature is making is that scum were taking advantage of robbnva having issues with people having town reads and using it as an excuse to try to push a lynch through. (Which is a decent argument imo)

That makes more sense i was misunderstanding what creature originally meant by "problems with townreads". Either way I'm not sure that was Smithereens trying to jump on and push for a lynch. iirc creature didn't even have a vote on him that wasn't from rvs and robb didn't place a vote on him during that squabble. if there were more votes on creature i could see it as scum pushing for a lynch but being the first legitimate vote on creature doesn't convince me fully.
I would like to see what Smith has to say though considering we're now days in and they've only posted twice.

[Dragon of the West]

lol i forgot i had this on still xD VOTE: Unvote

[Dragon of the West]

I think the point creature is making is that scum were taking advantage of robbnva having issues with people having town reads and using it as an excuse to try to push a lynch through. (Which is a decent argument imo)

That makes more sense i was misunderstanding what creature originally meant by "problems with townreads". Either way I'm not sure that was Smithereens trying to jump on and push for a lynch. iirc creature didn't even have a vote on him that wasn't from rvs and robb didn't place a vote on him during that squabble. if there were more votes on creature i could see it as scum pushing for a lynch but being the first legitimate vote on creature doesn't convince me fully.
I would like to see what Smith has to say though considering we're now days in and they've only posted twice.

robbnva was hinting at a creature scum read / lean

i realize that but still he didn't have his vote on him. while i'm fine with saying that makes smith feel scummy (because it does), i don't think I'm ready to say only scum!smith does that and puts a vote on creature there. This is obviously all contingent on smith's response

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: Robbnva
Actually 100% serious this person is probably scum
pedit creature wtf I used brackets last game we played..

this was the first serious vote

bold move to have a serious vote post 16

[Dragon of the West]

Early townreads on Dwlee99 and Derek12.

Why?

Because of their pushes.

Crabs are the worst seafood

VOTE: crazycrabman

Dwlee sheep me

VOTE: Dragon

Sure

I'm in a league game I'm busy

But seriously

VOTE: Creature

Serious vote.

VOTE: Crazycrab
Consider yourself sheeped

Town {Derek12}
Null {Everyone else}
Scum {Eggman, Crazy}

Town {Derek12}
Null {Everyone else}
Scum {Eggman, Crazy}








Very scum {Dragon of the West}
VOTE: Dragon
@Derek sheep me
pedit can we not rsq with stupid questions please? thanksss

Okay so scum team is dragon, crazy and eggman. Thoughts?

VOTE: Robbnva
Actually 100% serious this person is probably scum
pedit creature wtf I used brackets last game we played..

Cant tell if creature is being serious or naw.

ladhst

vote this please

The only magic word I know is actually three words: Very buttery popcorn
So..
vote robbnva very buttery popcorn?

[Dragon of the West]

@Creature, your stated reason for your town reads is that you don't think scum would push like that. This 'push' you referenced was literally their first post. I'm not sure what Robbnva has to do with this either.

"referenced"

Would like to see where I referenced the first post.

See above, post 38. Although, you aren't referencing their literal first post or push, but it was early

[Dragon of the West]

I will say while there are multiple pushes that they made, I only count one of Derek's as legitimate after RVS and then maybe 3 of Dwlee's. Definitely more than their "first post" like Smithereens said it was

[Dragon of the West]

But i don't think that is only scum!smithereens that would use hyperbole in an argument like that. I think they may just disagree with reads that early

[Dragon of the West]

I don't like eggman's posts so far in general and i'd like to see more defense/scum hunting from him. Until then, VOTE: Eggman

[Dragon of the West]

But i don't think that is only scum!smithereens that would use hyperbole in an argument like that. I think they may just disagree with reads that early

but the way it was positioned after robbnva's problems with early town reads gives me the heebie jeebies.

Fair enough. But that's like arguing anyone that jumped on your side after you questioned Smithereens is scummy because they agreed with you after you made an argument on someone else and could possibly get smithereens lynched. Idk

[Dragon of the West]

I don't like eggman's posts so far in general and i'd like to see more defense/scum hunting from him. Until then, VOTE: Eggman

I agree that his posts are funny but not being that actively scum hunting doesn't mean he's scum. I for instance aren't that active but I'm still town.

Doesn't mean he's scum, but I still want more from him. If you're gonna have weird feeling posts then you have to give me a reason to think you're town. I play by considering everyone to be mafia at the start. Guilty until they convince me they're innocent

[Dragon of the West]

I don't like eggman's posts so far in general and i'd like to see more defense/scum hunting from him. Until then, VOTE: Eggman

I agree that his posts are funny but not being that actively scum hunting doesn't mean he's scum. I for instance aren't that active but I'm still town.

Doesn't mean he's scum, but I still want more from him. If you're gonna have weird feeling posts then you have to give me a reason to think you're town. I play by considering everyone to be mafia at the start. Guilty until they convince me they're innocent

[Dragon of the West]

oops, no idea why that posted twice

[Dragon of the West]

do you have a point to make about that post creature or are you just quoting it to put it out there?

[Dragon of the West]

don't forget fox, stelo, and akigoku. Too many people that we haven't heard from

[Dragon of the West]

The dessert question can be totally on purpose, but doesn't prove anything. He could do that to crumb vanilla townie but...it's kind of a weak crumb and vanilla townie is probably the role least likely to crumb because they have the easiest role to claim with an impossibility of a counterclaim. Also, what was already mentioned holds true, scum crumb as well so that they have something to point to later if they need to claim before a lynch

[Dragon of the West]

But I don't think Egg is the kind of player that does that.

but why would he crumb vanilla townie in the first place? someone pointed out early on he never has done an RQS in any of his games before. regardless of alignment

[Dragon of the West]

I also hold the belief that a VT claim is incredibly useless, so crumbing my role in the form of that RQS would lend a little bit more credence.

I think the claim of VT in itself is fairly useless, but a realistic one. Especially early on before anything has been revealed, it's good for scum because it isn't prone to counterclaim and even better if you can fake a crumb towards that claim

[Dragon of the West]

But I don't think Egg is the kind of player that does that.

in all of your "vast" experience with eggman, he cannot be a player that fakes a crumb?

[Dragon of the West]

OK, now even I'm confused by this whole ordeal, which may or may not has been your intention.
I put the question so I could follow it up with "mine is vanilla ice cream", but you guys started a wagon on me while I was away and I had to claim before answering it.
I think Dwlee got it right.

You made multiple posts before a wagon formed on you though. I also don't understand why you wouldn't ask the question and give your own answer first.

I still don't understand why a vt would need to crumb vt to begin with.

thissssss

[Dragon of the West]

it's a crappy crumb if it is one considering it's not convincing, he's claiming the least risky role to claim if he is scum, and vanilla townie is probably the least crumbed role

[Dragon of the West]

the dessert question may have been on purpose, but at this point it doesn't make me believe that eggman would do that as vanilla townie. it feels like a scum leaving an easy crumb for themselves to claim

[Dragon of the West]

OOC: what was that show from the 90's with the guy who would always say "howdy neighbor"? Was that the one with Tim Allen talking to his neighbor over the fence and they never showed his neighbor's face? I've been trying to figure it out all day and it's killing me

[Dragon of the West]

I can only see him doing that as scum if someone told him to.

but you see him doing it as town? when he has never done an RQS ever before

[Dragon of the West]

I agree but I'm not sure why you quoted Smeagol thing

[Dragon of the West]

I'd discount the number of people voting him, but honestly his crumb is pretty much genuine, so he's either VT or was planning to claim that, but I don't expect him to plan his claim tbh. Also, he's actually trying to contribute, which is a towntell for someone that looks pretty much mislynch bait (I've already played with him).

>A VT does not claim VT, on Day 1, before being pressured. It's anti-town, contrary to town thought processes, town don't do it etc. Not even town newbies do it. Newb scum do it.

>I'm contributing more yet you scum read me. Contribution, which he definitely is not doing, is not AI.

>Could you reply to my post re:your claims?

He has been pressured and dwlee actually called for him to claim. i think he was L-1 or L-2 at that time

[Dragon of the West]

I can only see him doing that as scum if someone told him to.

but you see him doing it as town? when he has never done an RQS ever before

Yes, as he's often lynched D1, he should be ready when it comes to him to claim.

Links please, I suspect you're making shit up.

we already discussed this I believe. Creature and robbnva talked about Eggman's 3 games

[Dragon of the West]

Okay that's more the path I'd want to go down. I don't want links to those things I'd rather him defend the slip-up. There could be a motive but honestly I wouldn't put it past town!creature to white lie just to make people agree with him. I could see town!creature doing that especially after playing with him in my last game where he was town. He's very aggressive and sure of himself and his reads. Doesn't mean scum!creature wouldn't do this, I'm just saying I'm going to weigh it appropriately unless he gives it a poor defense

[Dragon of the West]

I don't think someone being mislynched in a few games leads them to crumb vanilla townie and I also don't think that means you can throw away scum reads on them

[Dragon of the West]

im not fully caught up yet so I don't have opinions on a lot of people yet. Im also not one to give out all my reads either.

But dragon I'm kind of conflicted on for reasons

.

back atcha

[Dragon of the West]

Neil Breen

wat

[Dragon of the West]

8 happened after you made that statement so that technically doesn't count
6 is a list read and doesn't get considered as scum hunting
so basically 5 is his only scum hunting post? It's weird you think it's a good post and to me it looks like a post that anyone could fake.

so you town read him off basically 1 post yet later you said this about somebody else

Two posts is not enough to judge anyone on.

so how can you judge somebody off 1 post (even if I include his number 8 iso that makes 2) but you can't judge somebody else off 2 posts? seems weird to me.

as for atm, so it's meta based off 1 game? meh but ok for now.

I would like to see more fo

For the record, that one game where atm was apprehensive and wouldn't put out reads, he was scum. But atm just seems clueless to me in general so I really don't put much weight on anything he does. I feel like he's a liability even when he would be town so who knows

[Dragon of the West]

atm487:

Do you have any scumreads that aren't Eggman currently?

so far, no, i'm still looking at all the posts, but other than Robb(only slight read) i can't think of anyone

I have had quite a few posts. You haven't been able to get a stronger read on me yet?

Or every active player so far

[Dragon of the West]

Also, I feel Robbnva is either very set in his ways and doesn't like people not agreeing with him, or he is trying to push ways of thinking which points him as town.

Pushing ways of thinking isn't town to me. Scum would definitely try to use suddle logical fallicies or misrepresent ways of thinking to get mislynches or people on their side

[Dragon of the West]

I am thinking the whole scum team is in {Akigoku, crazycrabman, MarioManiac4, Robbnva, Smithereens, stelo}

You're putting a person that has never posted onto the scum team? For real?

[Dragon of the West]

There is. He never posted. He's scum reading a vacant slot

Lol yup I find that hilarious

[Dragon of the West]

Also, I feel Robbnva is either very set in his ways and doesn't like people not agreeing with him, or he is trying to push ways of thinking which points him as town.

Pushing ways of thinking isn't town to me. Scum would definitely try to use suddle logical fallicies or misrepresent ways of thinking to get mislynches or people on their side

Yeah, that's the scum side.

But you said that pointed him as town sooo...

[Dragon of the West]

I am thinking the whole scum team is in {Akigoku, crazycrabman, MarioManiac4, Robbnva, Smithereens, stelo}

You're putting a person that has never posted onto the scum team? For real?

Are you even reading?

I've been working my way through and commenting as I read rather than go through ALL of it just to go back and quote/comment

[Dragon of the West]

Also, I feel Robbnva is either very set in his ways and doesn't like people not agreeing with him, or he is trying to push ways of thinking which points him as town.

Pushing ways of thinking isn't town to me. Scum would definitely try to use suddle logical fallicies or misrepresent ways of thinking to get mislynches or people on their side

Yeah, that's the scum side.

But you said that pointed him as town sooo...

No, the town side is him very set in his ways and not liking when people go against that. The scum side is him pushing his way of thinking.

Pedit- Ohhhhh, I just read my post. That was a mistype. Sorry

Okay yeah it was just that last word that got me

[Dragon of the West]

He's so shocked he has 2 mouths

[Dragon of the West]

I think a lot of people abandoned the Eggman wagon earlier. He handled the pressure of all the votes on him well. While he's still a scum lean for me for now, he's not near my top. I think some others were reading him closer to null/town even. Creature still bothers me because of the blatant lies and shotty reasoning to back off the Eggman wagon so early. His reason was the crumb claim. While it's possible this really swayed him, his logic was completely faulty. That makes me feel like he was hoping for an Eggman lynch to get himself some town cred once egg flipped town. While I think creature is my strongest scumread at the moment, I'm still suspicious of others and I think Robb is right to say we should use more of this day to put pressure on different people and get more ideas on them. Especially with a few inactives that we're waiting to get replaced. That being said, the day can always end up going back to a lynch on creature after we've gotten more reads on everyone else

[Dragon of the West]

^That was kind of in response to smithereens

[Dragon of the West]

No, I didn't forget abut them, I was asked who I thought the scum team was I believe (or that's how I interpreted it), and that's who I think it is.

Are you still scumreading Eggman and Robbnva? If so, please explain your scumread on Robbnva because you haven't really touched on it much from what I can tell.

ffs you're mature af. If you want me to talk to you in the same way I'd talk to a challenged person, that's fine too.

What caused you to stop scum reading Eggman/Creature?
What caused you to move to Crazy?

I might try to explain later, right now I'm too busy feeding in league with mah boi norbert who sets francis on me as support viktor taking all my farm. feelsbadman

It's later.

@DotW:

Are you scumreading anyone but Creature or Eggman right now?

My read on eggman has shifted towards a soft scumlean. I like the way he handled all of the votes on him.
I think robb is fairly town although I'm suspicious about him.
Crab seems lost the past couple days and his defensive posts didn't make much sense to me so that's a scumread.
The inactives make it tough because any of them could be scum but we have no way of reading that.
I have mixed feelings on atm. I don't want to say it's a null read, but it could go either way. He could be VI but that's the same way he played last game when he was scum so I don't like it.
Bottom line is not many people have seemed very towny up until this point

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

[Dragon of the West]

Hi guys, been following the thread, here are my thoughts so far

Eggman - Looks like noobtown to me, I don't like how fast the wagon on him formed, and crumbing VT seems more like silly town than weird scum
Creature - Probably my strongest townread, he seems to be very open with his thoughts and actively scumhunting. His thoughts on leaving the egg wagon mirrored my thoughts at the time.
Dragon of the West - Also seems open, brings up good points and genuine-looking thoughts
atm - Probably confused town but I'm not sure
Dwlee - Really liked his activity early on so he's probably town, just wish he would stop being lazy
Derek - null. I like his pushes, but some of his posts don't seem to be doing very much and my gut says he might be scum
MarioManiac - null leaning scum for gut
F-oh-ex - Probably town because the depth of his analysis is more likely to come from town and his emotions seem genuine
crazycrab - I was scumreading him up until recently, but the thing about him trying to change his playstyle doesn't seem faked, and his comment along the lines of "I don't know what I can do to make you townread me" is very classic town frustration for being wagoned.
Robbnva - null leaning scum, it's kinda worrying that he hasn't done anything particularly towny yet since he's been very active. Also, his logic-based scumhunting style seems almost too easy--he's very experienced so he should know that town often uses bad logic, perhaps more than scum does.
Smithereens - null leaning town, for his aggressiveness. Something feels off about him to me, not sure what it is though

VOTE: MarioManiac let's do it.

PEdit: What's up creature

Hallelujah, an active player

[Dragon of the West]

Eggman - I don't like how fast the wagon on him formed

Ok I remembered wrong the wagon actually formed quite slowly

That said I don't like smithereens' or atm's jumps on.

I don't like just about everything atm does

[Dragon of the West]

Yeah but he seemed like VI in the last game creature, crab, dwlee, and I played with him. All of day one we just thought he was a dumb town member and then he ended up being scum. It just makes me weary of him and his play. It's frustrating

[Dragon of the West]

But he seems to be trying to actually contribute here.

I haven't felt them to be actual contributions. More like someone asks him something and then he says something along the lines of "I don't know" or "I don't have a read on them" and then moves on

[Dragon of the West]

Thanks I already read through his full ISO. Very different is a bit of a stretch but he's not exactly the same. I wouldn't expect him to employ the exact strategy as last time though considering it's a good amount of the same people...

[Dragon of the West]

watching you Dragon~

O.o

And why's that?

[Dragon of the West]

Surely, if they were an average player I would push him harder, but compared to Newbie 1715, he looks very different.

What if he is an average player and he's just very manipulative?

You said you read parts of Newbie 1715 right? I skimmed it for fun a bit before this game started, and it makes me highly doubt this.

I doubt it too. But I still disagree that he's "very different"

[Dragon of the West]

If Rob's town, then he isn't too concerned about the town win con, and he clearly shows it. Otherwise he's scum.

like this part right here can no way come from a rational thinking townie.

I am playing against my win condition because I think it is better to pressure people instead of limiting the search to 1/2 people especially when we have a bunch of inactive people, people doing jack shit, and even lurkers?

the fact that you want to stay focused on creature/egg and ignore everyone else actually worries me if you are town. it shows you are close minded and town should not be close minded, they should be open minded.

Concern about our wincon is shown when a player get's excited about a discovery of scum they have just made, or concern about other players backflipping on their reads for shit reasons.

It doesn't matter what you believe about open-mindedness when I'm actually claiming that your apathy towards Creature (which you're construing as 'open-mindedness') is actually a scum tell.

I find this to be blatantly wrong. I think as long as you're willing to go back to the initial scumread, there's nothing harmful about pushing different wagons just to get reads and reactions from people early. Especially when those extra conversations and reactions are exactly what glean useful information after a flip and as the game goes on. Once everyone has had their say or you feel like you've gathered as much info as possible you can always go back onto that initial read. If he backs down from the creature wagon when it reforms without good reason, THAT'S when it appeas scummy to me

[Dragon of the West]

@Robb don't you think it would be helpful to pressure creature more to try and make him crack?

As a person that was on that wagon, I didn't see us getting more useful information at that moment(especially with, at the time, 3 lurkers/inactives). I personally plan to go back to that wagon but I don't think we would get Creature to somehow "crack"

[Dragon of the West]

Disappointed that you refuse to see reason, I'll lay it out in syllogism then.

1) A scum case based on behavioural differences between games is valid insofar as it remains consistent
2) It is not consistent
C) It is not valid.

>You are diverting attention away from a scum lynch because your reasons to vote creature far, far outweigh your reasons to vote Crab, yet you insist it is better to be voting Crab.
>

I haven't talked about Creature as if he was about to be lynched

. However it is quite obvious that a wagon requires votes in order for a lynch to occur, and you are most certainly going to stick with Crab until he is lynched, at the cost of Creature surviving into the night.
>Crab hasn't said anything AI. Please re-check your reads
>Creature isn't going to get close to a lynch because people like you are voting on crap wagons. Now you're saying that you'll vote creature if he gets close to a lynch, but conveniently ignore the fact that that can't happen if people are going to vote randomly.

You also need to stop thinking that I'm town reading Crab.

Reason. A player who is uninformed is likely to stick to a person who they've discovered is scum with a high degree of confidence. Moving off it simply shows how little profundity the discovery actually made on the player. If Rob's town, then he isn't too concerned about the town win con, and he clearly shows it. Otherwise he's scum.

you are just talking out of your ass at this point.

Confirmation bias cannot be beaten, end of story. Townies should be showing all the flaws that an uninformed player should exhibit, including over confidence in a read that they believe confirms the guilt of another player. You however dropped this tangible and highly convincing case against Creature in favour of poking a far less suspicious player for a reason that I've already demonstrated is absolutely not AI.

I

'd say you panicked when it appeared that Creature was about to get lynched

, and now you're trying to get pressure off him.

what in God's fucking name do you call this then

[Dragon of the West]

Disappointed that you refuse to see reason, I'll lay it out in syllogism then.

1) A scum case based on behavioural differences between games is valid insofar as it remains consistent
2) It is not consistent
C) It is not valid.

>You are diverting attention away from a scum lynch because your reasons to vote creature far, far outweigh your reasons to vote Crab, yet you insist it is better to be voting Crab.
>

I haven't talked about Creature as if he was about to be lynched[

/b]. However it is quite obvious that a wagon requires votes in order for a lynch to occur, and you are most certainly going to stick with Crab until he is lynched, at the cost of Creature surviving into the night.
>Crab hasn't said anything AI. Please re-check your reads
>Creature isn't going to get close to a lynch because people like you are voting on crap wagons. Now you're saying that you'll vote creature if he gets close to a lynch, but conveniently ignore the fact that that can't happen if people are going to vote randomly.

You also need to stop thinking that I'm town reading Crab.

Reason. A player who is uninformed is likely to stick to a person who they've discovered is scum with a high degree of confidence. Moving off it simply shows how little profundity the discovery actually made on the player. If Rob's town, then he isn't too concerned about the town win con, and he clearly shows it. Otherwise he's scum.

you are just talking out of your ass at this point.

Confirmation bias cannot be beaten, end of story. Townies should be showing all the flaws that an uninformed player should exhibit, including over confidence in a read that they believe confirms the guilt of another player. You however dropped this tangible and highly convincing case against Creature in favour of poking a far less suspicious player for a reason that I've already demonstrated is absolutely not AI.

[b

]I'd say you panicked when it appeared that Creature was about to get lynched

[/b], and now you're trying to get pressure off him.

what in God's fucking name do you call this then

[Dragon of the West]

@Robb don't you think it would be helpful to pressure creature more to try and make him crack?

I have already seen enough of creature though. His 180 for weird reasons, his "lies" (put that in quotes since some people don't consider it a lie ), and his weird attempts at deflection makes me think there is no way he is town. I honestly don't think I can pressure him anymore than he has already been pressured.

Do you think pressuring him might convince other people more though?

PEdit: Makes sense

I think both of you are town and we approach this game in very different ways so that's where the conflict is coming from

This is extremely fair. Although the more smithereens goes on, the less I'm inclined to believe what they say

[Dragon of the West]

@Rob, you explain the point well, however it simply becomes more clear that you've recognised the fact that the evidence against Creature is empirical, and the evidence against Crab is conditional. Putting your vote against a player for not giving good reasoning does not motivate that player to give better reasons. That fundamental study on human behviour is why the death penalty has been abolished in so many countries: The threat of punishment does not change behaviour.

The only useful place for a vote is to kill scum, and atm you're hoping it will do things that it clearly isn't going to do by pursuing a side show to Creature.

@Infinity, I don't fake annoyance, this is simply how I talk, and IRL I don't feel annoyed at all since I understand perfectly why people would disagree with me.

Lol there's a difference between a criminal doing a crime that may face the death penalty and a person playing mafia who, if town, still wants to win(you can win even if you get mislynched) and mostly doesn't want to get mislynched. If they are town, they should try to give every good piece of evidence they can and defend themselves. Their flip then dictates what you make of the evidence they give you. Even if you aren't lynching that person, the pressure and the threat of it should motivate them to give you more so they don't get lynched. the logical fallacy you just used is called false analogy, just so you know

[Dragon of the West]

I don't pay attention to my posts Dragon, if you read on you'll see that's why I lean town on Rob. He doesn't do it either. However, someone is wrong on the internet and it's my destiny to correct them.

Sorry if i ever comment, quote, or say something that's already been talked about. the way i catch up is usually work my way from the last post i saw, if i see something i want to point out or respond to i quote it and respond on the spot out of fear that i'll forget what i had to say or miss it when i go back to make all my comments. it's also helps me make my read as the game happens and keep everything in order in my head rather than see everything as a big jumble

[Dragon of the West]

FFS this is a false analogy: Peeling a banana is like ripping the skin off a person, therefore it is wrong to peel a banana. However let's not get sidetracked, I'm surprised you're taking issue with trivial points.

that's just like this analogy: Death penalty is a punishment like being lynched. threatening death penalty doesn't change the way people act so it doesn't work. threatening to lynch people to get them to change the way they act won't work

[Dragon of the West]

up then

every time i get back on there's like 3 new pages so yeah, i'm almost always catching up

[Dragon of the West]

Disappointed that you refuse to see reason, I'll lay it out in syllogism then.

1) A scum case based on behavioural differences between games is valid insofar as it remains consistent
2) It is not consistent
C) It is not valid.

>You are diverting attention away from a scum lynch because your reasons to vote creature far, far outweigh your reasons to vote Crab, yet you insist it is better to be voting Crab.
>

I haven't talked about Creature as if he was about to be lynched[

/b]. However it is quite obvious that a wagon requires votes in order for a lynch to occur, and you are most certainly going to stick with Crab until he is lynched, at the cost of Creature surviving into the night.
>Crab hasn't said anything AI. Please re-check your reads
>Creature isn't going to get close to a lynch because people like you are voting on crap wagons. Now you're saying that you'll vote creature if he gets close to a lynch, but conveniently ignore the fact that that can't happen if people are going to vote randomly.

You also need to stop thinking that I'm town reading Crab.

Reason. A player who is uninformed is likely to stick to a person who they've discovered is scum with a high degree of confidence. Moving off it simply shows how little profundity the discovery actually made on the player. If Rob's town, then he isn't too concerned about the town win con, and he clearly shows it. Otherwise he's scum.

you are just talking out of your ass at this point.

Confirmation bias cannot be beaten, end of story. Townies should be showing all the flaws that an uninformed player should exhibit, including over confidence in a read that they believe confirms the guilt of another player. You however dropped this tangible and highly convincing case against Creature in favour of poking a far less suspicious player for a reason that I've already demonstrated is absolutely not AI.

[b

]I'd say you panicked when it appeared that Creature was about to get lynched

[/b], and now you're trying to get pressure off him.

what in God's fucking name do you call this then

please respond to this

[Dragon of the West]

I already did. It's AI and it's town AI. However you haven't played mafia long enough to know that it appears.

This is my second game of mafia ever so....no

[Dragon of the West]

nevermind. i misread what you said

[Dragon of the West]

I hope to get more than just your opinion on what ways that can be AI. I hope you understand

[Dragon of the West]

maybe. or maybe not. depends on the scum, although i understand your point. No reason to belabor it

[Dragon of the West]

PEdit: nope, smith is town too

If you had to vote for someone right now, a lynch vote not a pressure vote, who would it be on? You've called all the main suspects your townreads

[Dragon of the West]

Main suspects being the 3 people that have had a wagon on them so far

[Dragon of the West]

Do you think it's town saying everything can easily be faked and suggesting someone of not playing to their win condition?

Here's how I weigh scum:
Are they pushing an agenda that progresses town's wincon? Y/N.
If Y, don't lynch, If N, do lynch.

You and every other player here don't give enough attention to reading posts in the context of the wider game. You can't possibly read motives without considering which team they benefit. I appear to be the only one with these thoughts which is slightly disappointing to understate it.

Here's the problem, you can't always tell exactly which wincon a person is supporting. Especially when you don't low who all of the scum are. If someone has a strong read on 2 people and is almost certain they're scum and then says those are two that need to be lynched is that town win con? For a town player it is. But if both of those lynches flip town, that player looks scummy and looks like he's playing towards scum wincon because he called for mislynches. But then he's really town and he was just trying to lynch who he thought was scum which is town win con. Oh wow by looking at wincon alone they've now mislynches three people. Super awesome

[Dragon of the West]

You can't possibly know what win condition everyone is playing to all the time. That's kind of the point. That's what makes this game more in depth then blindly following whatever the hell you think wincon looks like in that moment

[Dragon of the West]

Hello, are you scum?

lol

[Dragon of the West]

Very tired, and I have not read the game as closely as I would like. My take-aways:

3.)

Dragon of the West seems to have transformed starting around Post #632. Prior to that he seemed to jump in to make inane comments, or comments seemingly designed to keep the day going in the direction it was already going (i.e., an Eggman or Creature lynch). I was ready to call him out for textbook active lurking. Now he has "softened" his read after the wagon has substantially ebbed.

Dragon of the West, do you feel like your play has kicked into gear lately. Why?

Yes for 2 reasons. 1) This only my second game ever so I'm still kinda figuring it out and even within this game stuff has started clicking more for me. And 2) I had a couple days off work in a row so I could literally be more active

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

Interesting... why did you think this is true?

Which part of it? Getting you to give more or thinking they can't be on a scum team together?

[Dragon of the West]

This only my second game ever

Really? You seem to know a lot of mafia theory for only your second game!

Thanks I read up on it a decent amount prior to my first game on the wiki and a lot of the theory is just some form of logic and that stuff clicks well with me

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

Interesting... why did you think this is true?

Which part of it? Getting you to give more or thinking they can't be on a scum team together?

The vote getting me to give more. I don't see how it would work.

The idea was for a few people to put a vote on you and maybe get you to respond to those votes and put forth something useful. I feel like that's pretty self explanatory and it was worth a try

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

Interesting... why did you think this is true?

Which part of it? Getting you to give more or thinking they can't be on a scum team together?

The vote getting me to give more. I don't see how it would work.

The idea was for a few people to put a vote on you and maybe get you to respond to those votes and put forth something useful. I feel like that's pretty self explanatory and it was worth a try

But you literally said that it was just to pressure me in the public thread.

Yeah and if you didn't respond appropriately I'd consider lynching you. Congrats

[Dragon of the West]

Egg I don't quite understand your question can you rephrase it for me?

[Dragon of the West]

This response is confusing. Is it town? Smart play? Are the two mutually exclusive? Robb?

Not sure why it's confusing. Yes it's town, yes it's smart play, imo yes they are.

Objection! According to my words, it can either be town OR smart play! But thank you for your other responses.
PEDIT: I'm asking if the reasons you were scumreading Creature were the ones I pointed out: the crumb claim and the reason he left my wagon.

Yes those were the reasons. Especially since I was suspicious about him even prior to all of that. The more time that goes on, the more I think he really did a 180 because of your "crumb". While I disagree with it, I can see creature and his cocky self changing his mind so certainly after something like that

[Dragon of the West]

As far as egg goes, I don't think I'd want to lynch him today. Creature I'm still undecided on. If we can make a good case on someone else, I'm all for that as well.
Yes, Robb and I are neighbors and the reason I've been concerned about Robb was because from my understanding, it's more likely to have multiple alignments in neighborhoods to avoid the power of it being masons. This made me think Robb might be scum. Now there may be a third person lurking in the neighborhood since we don't know who or how many people belong in it, and that makes me uneasy

[Dragon of the West]

it's more likely to have multiple alignments in neighborhoods to avoid the power of it being masons.

This is such bad logic…

The power of masons is that they are confirmed.

When I read the wiki I thought that it's more likely that there are multiple alignments though But yes I guess a lot of the power is in it being confirmed

[Dragon of the West]

If it were up to me, we would be lynching derek…

I'll vote robb or crab at deadline though cause those are my weaker town reads

Really wanna get more out of mario.

Derek has been in and out recently, I don't like the past couple days from him. And I can agree about the Mario thing. At this point, even if he is town he's a liability or at best worthless

[Dragon of the West]

@petroleumjelly, our neighborhood conversation has been EXTREMELY sparse. I didn't post in it for about the first two days because I legitimately just forgot about it. I had the tab for it open on my comp to remind me to post but early on I was only using my phone for this game because I had been working, leading to me forgetting to post in it. Our only real conversation following that was him asking to bounce ideas off each other despite the fact that he "couldn't get a read on me". He asked me what I thought of creature and who my scum reads were. Besides that: nothing

[Dragon of the West]

If it is he's not using it to that end

[Dragon of the West]

@petroleumjelly, That crumb wasn't intended purely as a crumb. I posted that in hopes to jog Robb's memory of the neighborhood. Like I mentioned before, I forgot to post in it for a few days. When I finally did post in it, he didn't respond. That OOC post was to remind him to check because he hadn't responded in three days since my first post. He posted in the neighborhood thread that night, so I took it that it worked to remind him.
As for the Eggman crumb, I just felt uncomfortable about it. I wouldn't ever see a reason to legitimately crumb VT but that's me. I realize now that it may have just been something Eggman may do, while I do still take issue with it in general. Finally, I never tried to "push the lynch through". I solely was supporting my reason for my vote on him. Not trying to convince anyone to hammer in that moment

[Dragon of the West]

I don't think I ever tried to push a hammer vote through. I just said that eggman was my main target to lynch day one at that moment. And I think it's fair that I would support my reads if I'm arguing why someone is scum. Please quote where I said we should hammer RIGHT THERE if you really think I did say that

[Dragon of the West]

Yeah I just went back and I never once said we should hammer him. If you go on further, I support the idea that we should move pressure around to gain more info prior to lynching anyone. So I REALLY don't know what you mean

[Dragon of the West]

Say what you'd like, but you're imagining that. You said you thought something I said in that post set off your scumdar and the only thing I can see setting that off is if you thought I lied about not trying to push a hammer through. If that's not the case, please clarify what made that retort to petroleum scummy, because it's not clear. And that's not "overdefensive", that's explaining myself after an accusation

[Dragon of the West]

1.)

@petroleum: Do you think some of the point again robb could be explained by a very different playstyle as opposed to him being scum? Cause I'm not really seeing the scum motivation for his actions

3.)

Dragon of the West, I am having serious issues of your treatment of Eggman's vanilla townie "crumb."

While Eggman was at L-1 you basically tried to push through the lynch

by attacking his "crumb" for multiple posts, including:

This is where he accused me of trying to push through the lynch. Soo...you were saying?

[Dragon of the West]

e

[Dragon of the West]

rip quote

[Dragon of the West]

First of all, neither I nor petroleum said you were trying to get someone to quick hammer, and you making the distinction between calling eggman scum and trying to push the lynch is a nitpick and unnecessary defense. I also didn't like your odd justification of why you changed your mind about the eggman crumb. Now you're just getting overdefensive and assuming things I didn't say.

Yeah I'm having serious doubts about dragon.

[Dragon of the West]

Still think Infinity 324 is town.

That's fine. My read on them right now is around null/townlean. I don't want to lynch infinity today. I'd much rather lynch mario

[Dragon of the West]

I never said that I removed egg from my scumreads entirely. He just moved up slightly and is no longer the person I would like to lynch most today. Lol yeah he crumbed to claim, I crumbed to get Robb's attention. You can't compare the 2 instances.
Also, he said "push the lynch through". That's different to me than just "pushing for a lynch". But regardless of that, I didn't think making sure I explained myself well would be a problem, sorry if it was a bit wordy for your taste.
I think a lot of people agreed aside from you and creature that it was a weird crumb to begin with(fohex and robb especially), so I don't think it's unreasonable that I originally disagreed and read that as a scum!egg move. But I realized the point you and creature made and agree it's possible for town!egg to do that. This made him no longer my strongest scumread, who is now mario, but egg is my 3rd

[Dragon of the West]

1.)

Dragon of the West, in your last game of mafia (which I understand was also your first game), you put a player at L-1. You later showed concern about leaving players at L-1 where they could be hammered, and you in fact unvoted that player to prevent it:

does someone want to unvote just to be sure? or are we okay with him sitting at L-1 trusting no one will just hammer him?

Is tojam at L-2 or L-1? I unvoted because I was afraid at[m487] would throw on his vote after my explanation and accidentally hammer

You did not seem to have the same mentality with Eggman today. If anything, you ramped up the pressure once Eggman hit L-1/L-2. You have only recently shifted your vote, but that was only after the wagon had died down. Between you, F-oh-ex, Smithereens, and Robbnva roundly criticizing Eggman's "crumb," there was clearly enough conversational momentum that an Eggman lynch was in sight. This was particularly evident given that a votecount put Eggman at L-1 in Post #404, which was followed by atm487 calling for a hammer, and then crazycrabman (a potential hammer vote) posting that Eggman was his strongest scumread in Post #415.

Why were you content to leave your vote on Eggman?

2.)

Dragon of the West:

I play by considering everyone to be mafia at the start. Guilty until they convince me they're innocent

This is pretty clearly not how you actually play. Why did you say it, then?

3.)

Dragon of the West, both of your serious votes in this game were in large part because you wanted to "hear more" from certain players:

I don't like eggman's posts so far in general and i'd like to see more defense/scum hunting from him. Until then, VOTE: Eggman

VOTE: MarioManiac4 I want to hear more from him and I really feel like the only way to do that is to start putting some votes on him. I'm on board with both the creature and crazy wagons though as they're still my main scumreads. I don't think they could both be part of the same scum team though. I'll go through their interactions in a bit to see if I'm wrong, but just from memory it seems like they've both taken decent cracks at each other

While I don't have problems poking at quiet players, is there a reason you have not placed votes on your main scumreads?

4.)

Robbnva, could you summarize your Neighborhood conversation with Dragon of the West? Please refrain from direct quotes.

Please nobody derphammer without any last words from tojam

^^^^

I was sincerely worried about a derphammer. Especially since it was a newbie game and I really didn't trust atm

does someone want to unvote just to be sure? or are we okay with him sitting at L-1 trusting no one will just hammer him?

How about you...

haha i could, but it wasn't a request for someone to. just me asking the guys who haven't voted yet if they would feel better if someone did. I'm content with Tojam sitting at L-1

Here I said I was fine with him sitting at L-1 because I didn't have a problem with the lynch, but I was still worried someone hammering before Tojam got to give his final thoughts and reads. Then atm asked for more evidence against tojam before he put his vote on him. to which I responded with:

Okay sorry for the inactivity so far I've been busy the past two days. The vibes I'm getting so far are creature and tojam as the most scummy. Just reading over the thread creature seems to make a lot of cases that feel forced. Tojam has been iffy between being scarce and having early posts that didn't make much sense (although I may have just misinterpreted them). I haven't gotten a decent read on anyone else besides crazy's townslip.
VOTE: tojam L-1

Thanks for calling L-1, it helps us a lot, shame that one of you is probably going to lynch me now, then immediately think Creature is scum for pushing my wagon so hard, which could be correct, though it's unlikely as most of you have pointed out.

Please do not use the word 'vibe', it means nothing in terms of the game and often leads to town lynches. If you do know for sure that a person is scum (or the whole partnership) say it out loud, especially if its LYLO (essentially you have to lynch and if you lynch wrong it's game over) or MYLO (lynch town and it's game over).

Fortunately I'm a Vanilla Townie (VT) so there's still 1 or 2 power roles left in town, if you are a PR, check Creature, but don't say if you are a PR now.

@atm, ultimately, this was his defense when he was at L-1. No one (including myself) thought this was a very good defense of himself. Since pressuring him further he hasn't responded or given a more sound defense. That is why we've still been pressuring and looking for further responses. Ultimately it's a guessing game but Tojam is our best bet. We don't want to lynch him yet since we have more day to work with, though. and if he surprisingly flips town we can take whatever reads he has into consideration

Because of this, I thought that if atm saw my argument and agreed he might end up derphammering without realizing it. After this is when I took my vote off as a precautionary measure. If you would actually read through the game rather than quote the little sections that are convenient for your argument you would have realized this. Also if you read on in the game, atm DOES end up derphammering(which turns out to be a scum hammer) and even says he'd take his vote off Tojam because he didn't realize a hammer vote is final, so my fear was somewhat justified. This game, however, I trust most of you realize how the hammering system works and atm has specifically learned

[Dragon of the West]

So that is why I was content with L-1 being on egg earlier in the day.
2) It's literally how I look at the game. I don't understand your argument of that is not how I play, because it is. Find the people i think must be town, and the rest are in a possible scum list. then widdle it down until I have the scum team. it's just another way to say process of elimination
3) Considering eggman AND mario come out to be a main scum read for me, I'd say that method panned out. So I have, in fact, placed votes on my main scum reads and it is on my main scumread at this moment

[Dragon of the West]

Petroleum's and infinity's cases against me are not making sense to me. They're pretty easily debunked and it's like they aren't paying attention enough to their own points and evidence to realize the obvious holes within them. I can't tell if that's a scum move to set up a future mislynch since i was already in the middle/scummy on most people's reads or if that's town legitimately hunting. Either way it doesn't make sense to me that infinity has soooo many townreads despite how scummy this game feels to then get one defense from me, misrepresent it, and be convinced I'm where they want their vote

[Dragon of the West]

fohex what do you think about infinity?

[Dragon of the West]

I would still rather lynch Creature today.

I don't think I want to lynch Creature today. You might be able to convince me down the line but he's not my day one lynch

[Dragon of the West]

I never said that I removed egg from my scumreads entirely. He just moved up slightly and is no longer the person I would like to lynch most today. Lol yeah he crumbed to claim, I crumbed to get Robb's attention. You can't compare the 2 instances.
Also, he said "push the lynch through". That's different to me than just "pushing for a lynch". But regardless of that, I didn't think making sure I explained myself well would be a problem, sorry if it was a bit wordy for your taste.
I think a lot of people agreed aside from you and creature that it was a weird crumb to begin with(fohex and robb especially), so I don't think it's unreasonable that I originally disagreed and read that as a scum!egg move. But I realized the point you and creature made and agree it's possible for town!egg to do that. This made him no longer my strongest scumread, who is now mario, but egg is my 3rd

The fact that we are even having this conversation is the scummiest part about it. Town shouldn't be worried about someone saying a post looks scummy. And the problem definitely was not that it's too wordy.

I have a day cop inno on dragon, can you stop now, infinity?

If you're town, you're not helping anyone.

--------------------------------------------

petroleum had some pretty good point about dragon, I think they're town for pushing on people that would be hard to lynch. Also their tone didn't change between the first post and the others.

ISO'd dragon and crab again. I can definitely see dragon as scum, he seems to be on the sidelines a lot. The overdefensiveness here is really bad too.

Crab seems to be trying to scumhunt, despite not giving very defined reads, and brings up very good points.

Man I just want a flip -_-

"The fact that we're having this conversation is the scummiest part" is a terrible argument and doesn't refute any of the counter arguments I made. You're grasping at straws and have nothing of substance against me, but that's your perogative I guess.
The only part of your post I agree with is that I'm looking forward to see how whoever we lynch flips

[Dragon of the West]

His point was that what dragon was doing was contradictory, whether dragon is pushing an immediate lynch or not the point is the same. It's pretty clear.

I've already said this, you push on me out of the blue makes no sense coming from scum when no one else suspected me.

The two contradictions were how I treated an L-1 in my last game versus how I treated it in this game and how I "crumbed" neighbor after not liking how Eggman crumbed. I showed why both of these were not the case, yet you still want to claim that me being "contradictory" is the problem. I don't get your line of thinking if I've proven all of your and pj's points to be incorrect. You're only response has been along the lines of "even having the conversation is scummy, so disregard that we were wrong about everything we said. he's still scum anyway". It's such a bad vote and push I'm tempted to vote you back just for your complete absence of actual reasoning

[Dragon of the West]

1.)

I think petroleum meant to say "scumread eggman" instead of "push the lynch through", and I think the distinction between those things is a nitpick.

I meant what I said.

2.)

Dragon of the West:

I play by considering everyone to be mafia at the start. Guilty until they convince me they're innocent

2) It's literally how I look at the game. I don't understand your argument of that is not how I play, because it is. Find the people i think must be town, and the rest are in a possible scum list. then widdle it down until I have the scum team. it's just another way to say process of elimination

Nope. Your posts show you hunting using scumreads, not eliminating based on townreads:

While I think creature is my strongest scumread at the moment, I'm still suspicious of others and I think Robb is right to say we should use more of this day to put pressure on different people and get more ideas on them.

My read on eggman has shifted towards a soft scumlean. I like the way he handled all of the votes on him.
I think robb is fairly town although I'm suspicious about him.
Crab seems lost the past couple days and his defensive posts didn't make much sense to me so that's a scumread.
The inactives make it tough because any of them could be scum but we have no way of reading that.
I have mixed feelings on atm. I don't want to say it's a null read, but it could go either way. He could be VI but that's the same way he played last game when he was scum so I don't like it.
Bottom line is not many people have seemed very towny up until this point

Main suspects being the 3 people that have had a wagon on them so far

I think a lot of people agreed aside from you and creature that it was a weird crumb to begin with(fohex and robb especially), so I don't think it's unreasonable that I originally disagreed and read that as a scum!egg move. But I realized the point you and creature made and agree it's possible for town!egg to do that. This made him no longer my strongest scumread, who is now mario, but egg is my 3rd

Perhaps the most telling reason for why you are not playing that way is the fact that you have called Creature "hilarious" for using such a process of elimination style:

I am thinking the whole scum team is in {Akigoku, crazycrabman, MarioManiac4, Robbnva, Smithereens, stelo}

You're putting a person that has never posted onto the scum team? For real?

There is. He never posted. He's scum reading a vacant slot

Lol yup I find that hilarious

If you

really

played like everybody is scum unless proven otherwise, you would

also

have players who have never posted in your scumpool.

So the question is,

why

are you acting like you play with that mentality? I think the answer lies in the post you made the claim:

I don't like eggman's posts so far in general and i'd like to see more defense/scum hunting from him. Until then, VOTE: Eggman

I agree that his posts are funny but not being that actively scum hunting doesn't mean he's scum. I for instance aren't that active but I'm still town.

Doesn't mean he's scum, but I still want more from him. If you're gonna have weird feeling posts then you have to give me a reason to think you're town. I play by considering everyone to be mafia at the start. Guilty until they convince me they're innocent

You basically said it in order to justify keeping your vote on Eggman.

~

Unvote: Robbnva

Vote: Dragon of the West

I think you were scum trying to push through an Eggman lynch. I think if you were Town you would have shown at least

some

concern about Eggman being so close to L-1 (especially since you explained that there

was

a quick hammer vote in your first and only mafia game here); but because it was in your interests you chose to ignore it. You instead joining the crowd criticizing Eggman's "crumb."

And

while criticizing Eggman for breadcrumbing such a useless role, you effectively did the same with your mechanically useless Neighbor role two minutes later. You have since claimed it was not

meant

to be a breadcrumb, but there is no question that had you been forced to claim later in the game you have doubled-back to that post to support it.

~

I think a lot of people abandoned the Eggman wagon earlier. He handled the pressure of all the votes on him well. While he's still a scum lean for me for now, he's not near my top. I think some others were reading him closer to null/town even. Creature still bothers me because of the blatant lies and shotty reasoning to back off the Eggman wagon so early. His reason was the crumb claim. While it's possible this really swayed him, his logic was completely faulty.

That makes me feel like he was hoping for an Eggman lynch to get himself some town cred once egg flipped town.

While I think creature is my strongest scumread at the moment, I'm still suspicious of others and I think Robb is right to say we should use more of this day to put pressure on different people and get more ideas on them. Especially with a few inactives that we're waiting to get replaced. That being said, the day can always end up going back to a lynch on creature after we've gotten more reads on everyone else

I think the player who was

hoping

for an Eggman lynch was you. How

annoying

it must be to see somebody unvote the easy Day One lynch for "completely faulty" reasons.

~

I actually want to move on to a couple other players, but I really have to sleep. Hopefully will get there tomorrow night.

So if I have a group of players I think are town, which leaves a group of possible scum, of that group I'm not allowed to have a strongest scumread?
Secondly, I already explained that I was afraid of a

derp

hammer last game and that was the sole reason I unvoted in that situation. Are you all dumb enough to accidentally hammer and think you could unvote? I trusted you guys a bit more, which I've already said.
Thirdly, forced to claim it? why the hell would i need to claim neighbor? We already all agreed that it is in no way AI because both scum and town can be neighbors. Not only this, but I told you that it was just to get Robb's attention and it worked because he finally checked the neighbor thread and responded that night. So it was not a crumb for a claim
And no, I was not eager for a quickhammer. I think VT is a worthless crumb and I still think Creature seeing a crumb that even eggman admitted wasn't there is faulty reasoning

[Dragon of the West]

Ah crap I didn't even get to check if the server was back up today. I spent all of yesterday constantly refreshing my browser. Due to the deadline being so close I'm gonna keep my vote on Mario while it has the most votes. I'm open to voting for a crazy lynch as well if it is the closest to getting the majority of votes needed near deadline. I'll be back in the morning to reread the thread from today and post final thoughts before deadline

[Dragon of the West]

The last time crab posted was Sunday. What day did the server go down?

[Dragon of the West]

I may or may not be around to switch my vote before deadline, I hope you guys will take care of it~ I really think the lynch should be Mario, he hasn't made much of an attempt to scumhunt and crab's thoughts all look genuine to me.

But I don't like that crab hasn't been active since before the server even went down. It's like he ran away and doesn't want to give anything up. Idk, I like both wagons but the longer crab stays silent the more likely I am to move my vote to him

[Dragon of the West]

Alright no one's budging and someone will eventually have to switch to get a lynch through. I'm okay with both lynches so, VOTE: crazycrabman
L-1

[Dragon of the West]

Hello, everyone! General question: what's your favorite dessert?
VOTE: Creature (I won't lurk this time if you don't.)

I really like brownie bottom pie with vanilla ice cream and whipped cream

Bad.

?

[Dragon of the West]

^ I think mafia killed Dwlee99 because:

- SK would see Robbnva more as a threat to him rather than mafia who's just eliminating strong town reads and keeping WIFOM in the game.

- I don't think a vigilante would shoot Dwlee99, some showed paranoia but I don't see someone doing a hero vig here.

I don't understand this post.

[Dragon of the West]

Aaaaaand they're mostly shitposting, w-w-wow.

Not sure how you can say it's mostly shit posting. Lots of game discussion has taken place in the past 2/3 pages.
What's your opinion on these discussions? The serious votes on me, the serious vote on creature, the refusal to give opinions on those 2 things by atm?

Any thoughts at all?

Let me read it 2-3 times and I'll present my opinion. I'd rather not form a serious opinion on spot after one read if I weren't there while the discussion was happening at all. When I am forced to catch up (and I often am due to time zones), I prefer to take a few horus to read everything carefully a few times.

"I'd rather not form a serious opinion on spot after one read" Scum
"When I am forced to catch up" Town

so, net neutral? this contradicts itself

[Dragon of the West]

VOTE: Dragon

ayyeee he's here

Why am I getting the feeling Dragon overreacts when stelo/petroleumjelly mentions him?

I know stelo (almost) irl. He goes to school with my little brother and we play league while we skype. He joined mafiascum because of me and my brother were talking about it one day. this was his first game (not super surprised he didn't play), but that's why I said "Ayyyee he's here"

[Dragon of the West]

I'll give Dwlee benefit of doubt and assume he's being antagonistic for the sake of arguments/activity. Not an ideal tact imo given all the activity, so take the hint.

he's gonna play that way regardless of what you say to him

Huh what?

antagonistic. He'll play that way no matter what you say to him. I know dwlee irl

[Dragon of the West]

Robbnva looks more likely to screw the SK than Dwlee99 does, while mafia don't have to worry so much about Robbnva.

Nvm, I think Robbnva got widely town read at the end of D1.

so you're saying that either SK or mafia could have killed either robb or dwlee?

[Dragon of the West]

Welp, Dragon's confirmed as a neighbor now. I'm assuming the neighborhood is day-and-night talk, so: Dragon, did Robb tell you his results?
Also why so many posts Creature?

It is day-night talk. We didn't post in it once throughout the course of the night. The last post was by me, July 1st. He couldn't have told me the results, he got NK'd

[Dragon of the West]

That flood gave me cancer. Also, SK is virtually confirmed because why would a Vig shoot either Dwlee or Robbvna? That "if" looks like trying to force a "townslip".
Also, you point out Derek is Town to you then you say "nvm Derek is Town". Consistency?

VOTE: Creature A shame his wagon died yesterday.

I was going to say that it seems mafia saw a push towards me yesterday (infinity and/or petroleum pushing and either could be mafia imo), they NK dwlee who was townreading me strongly and defending me against infinity, and decide creature should try to hard push for my lynch today since i was somewhere in between on most other people's spectrums. VOTE: Creature

[Dragon of the West]

petroleumjelly/Dragon of the West/atm487

SK: Smithereens

Calling it now

This is wrong because I'm town. And the only reason I only responded to you is because you were the only one that had posted since start of Day 2

[Dragon of the West]

Okay, let's see how well everyone else can gamesolve.

I am calling petroleumjelly/Dragon of the West/atm487 with Smithereens as SK currently.

[/unvote]atm487[/unvote]

Replace me with infinity or yourself and I think you may be right

[Dragon of the West]

also, is it mylo? because if we mislynch but SK kills scum it'd be 4:1:2 wouldn't it? Do we lose as town immediately if it goes to 3:1:3(which is worst case scenario for this day)? because technically there's a way for town to come back there

[Dragon of the West]

Okay, let's see how well everyone else can gamesolve.

I am calling petroleumjelly/Dragon of the West/atm487 with Smithereens as SK currently.

[/unvote]atm487[/unvote]

This also doesn't make sense because petroleumjelly is the one that started questioning me and then infinity jumped on his back to scum read me. After this, petroleumjelly restated his suspicions. Why would petroleumjelly start the heat on me and then not back off even when infinity pushed further? I know there are wifom and bussing arguments but I don't think there's a reason for scum!petroleum to do that to scum!me

[Dragon of the West]

Dwlee99 having a bad scumgame makes me feel safer.

excuse me?

Maybe not that bad, but enough to see a difference between his town and scum play.

*cough*
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=65515

My trust in Creature's sure-of-himself reads is pretty much non-existent

[Dragon of the West]

SK-hunters are scum.

Creature was trying to figure out who the SK was though

[Dragon of the West]

On one hand SK will probably try to target Mafia. On the other one, eliminating him would get us rid of one NK.

I get that, but the scum is always more worried about SKs than town.

No one is considering a vig for the second kill?

It might be, but I don't know who in this game would target Dwlee or Robb as a vig

[Dragon of the West]

1.)

Dragon of the West, your thoughts on Smithereens/DrippingGoofball?

2.)

Dragon of the West, why did you not attempt to chat with Robbnva during Night One? You went so far as to try to get his attention in the middle of Day One, and I would think you would have more to say after the crazycrabman lynch and flip.

3.)

Eggman, why did you vote for crazycrabman on Day One while offering up one of yourself and Creature on Day Two?

So, based on what I've seen of other people's opinions, it seems that you consider Creature to mutually be scum with either Crabman or me.
VOTE: Crabman,

FoS: Smithereens (un-FoS Crabman)

I propose lynching Crabman today, seeing how he flips, and if he's town lynch me or Creature tomorrow.
Because I don't get the cases on Infinity and Dragon, which also (to me) seem a little OMGUS-y (didn't Infinity call out DotW in the first place?)

Based on your Day One posting your top scumread was Smithereens (and I see that is apparently still true based on your recent vote), so I don't understand why you would resort to a sort of 'gambit' offering like that.

4.)

Eggman, in explaining your case on Smithereens you said:

5. MM4's defense seems very much like one of the scum variety

Could you explain this?

If there is an SK, I think smithereens would be one of the top suspects for it. Now that he's replaced out, I'm going to keep that impression until DGB posts more content. I haven't seen much of substance since the replacement.
To answer your question about the neighborhood, it's because robb seemed disinterested in discussing anything with me after that first conversation. Also, I didn't feel comfortable with it just being robb and I. I was seriously concerned about a possible scum lurker hiding in the neighborhood getting info about our reads and using that to their advantage. I think Robb felt that way too if you read some of his thoughts on the neighborhood

[Dragon of the West]

@DoTW

: What are you current thoughts on MM4 and Eggman?

MM4 was suspicious for me day one because of the way he was posting just enough not to get prodded. The posts he did make didn't feel like they were town AI so he still remains a scumlean. I'd like to see more from him today now that we've had a flip and two NK's. Depending on his play day 2, I could see him swinging either way.
Let me ISO Eggman and get back to you in a bit

[Dragon of the West]

After the ISO, I feel pretty comfortable with Eggman sitting as a town lean. After that early wagon on him I feel like his play has been town especially from the depth of his reads and attempts to find links. He's consistent with his suspicions and his thought process feels genuine

[Dragon of the West]

Look who's been paying attention...
Derek, are your ISOs coming along?

I'm null on DoTW now. I'm having a really hard time getting a good read on him currently. I kinda feel like he's going to flip opposite to infinity.

Eggman is town. Didn't really like his early posts, but they feel better for me recently. I don't really agree with some of it, but they seem genuine.

I got too lazy to ISO you and mostly just skimmed it. I'm townreading your posts today though, especially 1347. I'm wondering if you still think MM4/Creature aren't a duo, and if so why?

Then infinity is scum. It doesn't surprise me. Scum may have tried to create some wifom here but I couldn't help notice Dwlee and robb both agreed to lynch infinity and now they're dead. Robb was adamant and Dwlee said he'd trade a lynch for a lynch. I think his day 2 lynch request was MM4 in return

[Dragon of the West]

Notice I didn't put my vote on you? I should have said "it wouldn't surprise me". Lol I'm willing to accept that you're scum based on your out of the blue push on me day 1 right after saying you have so many townreads and the fact that you refuses to substantiate your argument with anything besides "having this conversation is scummy"

[Dragon of the West]

Notice I didn't put my vote on you? I should have said "it wouldn't surprise me". Lol I'm willing to accept that you're scum based on your out of the blue push on me day 1 right after saying you have so many townreads and the fact that you refuses to substantiate your argument with anything besides "having this conversation is scummy"

Nope, I gave my reasoning about 10 times yet you refuse to listen.

Guess DGB already gave up.

That was fast.

VOTE: DGB

???

I am now seeing DotW as town and Infinity 324 as scum.

Why the sudden change? Do you not agree that dragon has been overdefensive this game?

Lol. Please quote your reasoning that you gave 10 times. I'd love to read it in all its glory on non-existence

[Dragon of the West]

EBWOP: of not on

[Dragon of the West]

Then I proved each and every one of these points wrong and explained thoroughly why this was misconception on your part. On top of which, PJ said that you misrepresented what he said when you tried to put words in his mouth about what he meant by "pushing the lynch through". Your only remaining response to my defense was that I was overdefensive and having the conversation was scummy

[Dragon of the West]

Why I justified: it was brought up as me being contradictory when, in fact, I wasn't actually crumbing in the traditional sense. I've already stated that multiple times.
I asked what about that post you found scummy, not that I was concerned you found it scummy. As town, it is my goal to be townread by other town members so that they trust my reads as genuine and don't mislynch me. I don't think wanting to understand what you found scummy in order to refute that point and show you that I am town is in itself scum behavior.
I don't care if you don't believe me about why I stopped pushing eggman; it's the truth so I can't say anymore about it
It wasn't out of proportion. You exclaimed I was scum for those reasons and I went on to disprove you by responding to the actual points. You then ignored the points I made in retort and continued to call me scum by saying the conversation itself was scummy. You're ignorance of my previous arguments and absolute misrepresentation of what I've said is why I think you are scum

[Dragon of the West]

an entire day of one post? this game is dying. hopefully replacements get this going

[Dragon of the West]

1.)

One of my best guesses for scum is actually atm487, but he has never gotten around to answering my questions and now he's being replaced. MarioManiac4 being replaced actually seems like a slight Towntell to me, though I don't think the reasoning for why is very 'good.'

Can you explain why you think Mario being replaced is a towntell? regardless of how good the reasoning is

[Dragon of the West]

I would love to just list lynch targets but honestly I can't narrow it down into a top 3 until I see atm's replacement, MM4's replacement, and more from DGB. DGB has been around but just adds a quick sentence and then is gone again. Doesn't add a ton of new info and at the moment is just saying we should go ahead a lynch a practically empty slot(atm)

[Dragon of the West]

MM4 i still think is scummy. He basically dipped out after narrowly escaping being lynched. And I never felt like he gave a satisfying post towards the end of day 1.
Eggman is a townlean but I'd like to ISO him tomorrow and give you more in depth thoughts on him

[Dragon of the West]

@DoTW:

What do you feel about Creature's play today, and more specifically his thoughts on you?

To be honest, didn't really feel comfortable with the flood at the beginning of the day. But I think that might have just been him being eager and worried after seeing 2 nightkills. I do, however, worry about how his reads seem to fly in every direction at some point. They feel like they just change on a whim not only about me but about several others as well. This isn't enough for me to force a wagon on him at the moment but I'm very likely to be open to a creature wagon if anything else develops on him during this day.
For his thoughts on me: If Infinity is town, I wonder if scum!creature would see infinity as a more viable lynch than myself which is why Creature shifted around his reads on us, especially after you saying that either infinity or myself is probably scum. Unfortunately I don't think it's AI enough since town!creature could obviously have just changed reads

[Dragon of the West]

As Creature pointed out, we have a week. Let's not be hasty.
(I like your town game more than your mafioso, Creature.)

After an admittedly quick eggman ISO, I feel good about him being town. Following the VT crumb claim his play improved. Walls like 897 looked like they were from town PoV and his thought processes seem genuine

[Dragon of the West]

Just read the game Titus so we don't have to explain everything that's already happened.
I'm not saying his VT crumb was good, I'm saying his play following that point in the game seems improved and more towny. As for 897 and his other wall posts, they seem to come from a natural thought process and seem like legitimate reactions from what's happening in the game. Especially taking into consideration his lack of experience, I don't see scum!eggman creating walls that feel so earnest

[Dragon of the West]

As Creature pointed out, we have a week. Let's not be hasty.
(I like your town game more than your mafioso, Creature.)

After an admittedly quick eggman ISO, I feel good about him being town. Following the VT crumb claim his play improved. Walls like 897 looked like they were from town PoV and his thought processes seem genuine

lol i didn't even realize i quoted this

[Dragon of the West]

If there are no gut reads then there is no mafia game

[Dragon of the West]

petroleumjelly

2 mafia members + 1 serial killer in a 13 player setup looks anti-mafia.

9:3:1 looks like a terribly unbalanced setup, too swingy.

Which is it

[Dragon of the West]

I'm not sure who the third mafioso could be, but I'm pretty sure on {DGB, NJAC}.

Fantastic, help me bus my buddy!

@Egg and @DGB:

Why are you voting me?

Because you're my buddy and I am bus'ing you.

Eggman's reads are a hot mess and he's my other scum buddy.

Da fuq is this

[Dragon of the West]

Well Eggman's who I am suspecting so I don't get why you would think I am tunnelling on Creature. #confused

That was to Derek, silly

@Eggman,

Pick one. No reasons.

Are you overconfident or not subtle?

What's the point of this question?

You should know the answer to this

[Dragon of the West]

dragon, mario, eggman, titus, petroleum (for SK), derek, f-oh-ex, DGB, creature

You moved up because I looked over gunslingers again and I saw you were playing similarly. I would like to see more from you though that's not tunneling on creature.

Frankly, I think it's weird you care about him tunneling creature at this point. If he thinks he hit scum then I'm fine with him sticking to it and I'm willing to say creature could be scum. If this lynch goes through and creature flips scum, I want infinity lynched next. If we can't get enough for a creature wagon then I think we should lynch infinity. VOTE: Creature

[Dragon of the West]

dragon, mario, eggman, titus, petroleum (for SK), derek, f-oh-ex, DGB, creature

You moved up because I looked over gunslingers again and I saw you were playing similarly. I would like to see more from you though that's not tunneling on creature.

Frankly, I think it's weird you care about him tunneling creature at this point. If he thinks he hit scum then I'm fine with him sticking to it and I'm willing to say creature could be scum. If this lynch goes through and creature flips scum, I want infinity lynched next. If we can't get enough for a creature wagon then I think we should lynch infinity. VOTE: Creature

I have a problem with him tunneling creature since it fits the pattern of a scum tunnel more than a town tunnel. Why so eager to defend him? Why wouldn't I have a problem with someone tunneling my top townread?

I don't get why I should've known the answer to the question to titus

I guess I don't understand the patterns of scum vs. town tunneling, but derek12 is a townread for me and since he's tunneled I like to think he's sure of himself. And it's pretty obvious if you just read it

[Dragon of the West]

EBWOP: tunneling not tunneled

[Dragon of the West]

Not sure I really have time for this game. If I can't make time to read and post in the next couple days, I will request replacement. In the middle of buying a house (among other things), so my time has been severely crunched.

Congratulations PJ!!! That's really awesome. Also you're conftown, thanks.

I have surgery tomorrow and I came hoping to add something intelligent to the game but I think we are kinda running in circles. That suggests that the scum might be coasting and trying not to rock the boat? Though the townies are doing the same.

Right now we have this:

DrippingGoofball [1]: petroleumjelly
Creature [3]: F-oh-ex / Dragon of the West / Derek12
NJAC [2]: Eggman / DrippingGoofball
Dragon of the West [1]: Infinity 324
Titus [1]: Creature

I will theorize that were Creature scum, scum would bus and the lynch would happen faster. No scum is dead yet and the scum must be hungering for towncred. Why don't F-oh-ex / Dragon of the West try moving their votes around? Or anyone else?

Shake things up a bit. Like a mid-game RVS.

Why specifically f-oh-ex and myself? You want us to take our votes off the wagon with the most votes on it, which is on a person you've said is scum iirc, to try to get scum to bus? This doesn't make any sense

[Dragon of the West]

Why was my naked vote enough for you to decide to go on Creature? Creature didn't post between these two statements and my reasoning for the Creature wagon was stated beforehand.

Because NOTHING is going anywhere, we need to start forming cohesive wagons to move the day forward before deadline so we don't have to make a shitty compromise wagon, and because I've been open to a Creature wagon if that's what's available. Between you and f-oh-ex, that's the most cohesive wagon at the moment(sadly, two people on someone is the most serious wagon)

[Dragon of the West]

@NJAC:

...alright, where are they?
We need 3 more votes to lynch NJAC; since Creature's being replaced, I suggest... having the people from Creature's wagon hop over to NJAC or DGB and allowing Creature's replacement to get their role during the night?

@petroleumjelly

: Vote NJAC - while it seems DGB is both of our top scumreads, I feel like the NJAC lynch has a much better chance of happening today.

@F-oh-ex:

I never managed to ask this. How do you feel about MM4's defense of Smithereens, given it seemed to you that Smith was your toppest townread?

Why would we switch votes off of Creature to lynch someone else? Getting himself replaced doesn't get him a clean slate. I find it weird that you would suggest trying to get someone else closer to a lynch while waiting for a replacement for the slot we think is scum.
If creature lynch happens and he flips scum I'm gunning for eggman

[Dragon of the West]

@DotW: Egg is Town though. This idea was still horrible.

Let me get back to you on this

[Dragon of the West]

@egg: how do you feel about the creature wagon? Is he a possible lynch candidate for you today? And what would you say about me wanting to jump right on your wagon following a Creature lynch if he flips scum?

[Dragon of the West]

This game is really frustrating

[Dragon of the West]

replacement slot

[Dragon of the West]

1.) Dragon of the West, earlier you balked at switching from Creature because he was the "wagon with the most votes." Now that Creature does not have the most votes you are still preferring to keep your vote on him as opposed to switching to NJAC. Why?

I balked at switching because he both had the most votes and is who I wanted lynched. My argument to eggman was that it didn't make any sense to take my vote off just because he was getting replaced. I still don't like the NJAC wagon over the creature wagon, so I'm reluctant to switch

[Dragon of the West]

Ready for some new life in this game. Welcome to the silent thread that is Mini 1805. How are you Shiro?

[Dragon of the West]

hahaha infinity was scum that whole time

[Dragon of the West]

Meh

I was 2-shot vig

Sorry PJ

Your read on me was bad

Did you shoot Dwlee or robb N1?

[Dragon of the West]

wait...wut

[Dragon of the West]

NOOO

[Dragon of the West]

God damnit why the quick lynch on yourself

[Dragon of the West]

If he doesn't flip scum imma be piseed

[Dragon of the West]

If he doesn't flip scum imma be piseed

EBWOP: *she

[Dragon of the West]

well too bad tones don't come through over typing. I'm honestly pissed. I really wanted a push on a particular player today that wasn't DGB and instead he gets quicklynched without many associatives made at all today

[Dragon of the West]

Well this sucks

[Dragon of the West]

well too bad tones don't come through over typing. I'm honestly pissed. I really wanted a push on a particular player today that wasn't DGB and instead he gets quicklynched without many associatives made at all today

This better be expanded on soon, whether today or tomorrow. You had around 3 days to do this, you can't really complain. You also posted at day start so you could've easily just started pushing them then.

Yeah it was a lot of my fault; I should have V/LA'd for those few days. I was working a lot and trying to do laundry/pack to get ready to go back to school. I wanted to see how the day started unfolding before I started my push. It ended up being wrong anyway. I wanted to push Shiro/Creature slot in order to get at the very least a claim out of them(which you had agreed with the previous day)

[Dragon of the West]

well too bad tones don't come through over typing. I'm honestly pissed. I really wanted a push on a particular player today that wasn't DGB and instead he gets quicklynched without many associatives made at all today

Who did you want to push on? Did they vote DGB?

Shiro/Creature

[Dragon of the West]

Alright so being new to mafia, I have to ask a theory question. When mafia has day talk, should we be less inclined to mass claim because they can talk about what claims to make and whose claims to call B.S. on?

[Dragon of the West]

I think it's possible that she didn't claim a kill on Infinity in order to send Mafia searching for a Serial Killer,

That doesn't make sense. If she shot infinity and there wasn't SK, scum would have had to be the ones to NK PJ and then scum would know she was lying about shooting PJ

[Dragon of the West]

How do you feel about Derek's slot?

[Dragon of the West]

I think I'm doing a 180 on my read of him. I townread him really heavily for a while, but after Shiro flipped town and rereading Infinity's ISO I think he may be scum.
Infinity seemed to have him as a top scumread for a while despite not having a ton of reasons laid out. Then, while having Derek as top scumread, says he wants to lynch MM4. Then continues to have a scumread on Derek while still not saying much more than "he's playing from the sidelines". It just felt like failed bussing and a weird read for infinity to have for what was happening in the rest of the game

[Dragon of the West]

dragon, mario, eggman, titus, petroleum (for SK), derek, f-oh-ex, DGB, creature

You moved up because I looked over gunslingers again and I saw you were playing similarly. I would like to see more from you though that's not tunneling on creature.

Okay so I've reread some more and this is around where he changes his read on Derek. I don't feel like scum infinity would go over old games of Derek's to find a reason to change his read which leads me to believe Derek could point him to that game as a game to reference during day talk in the PT

[Dragon of the West]

I feel like the more I read the more I give in to confirmation bias, but whatever.
This is him having a problem with Derek's tunneling while having Derek somewhere in the middle of his reads list.

I have a problem with him tunneling creature since it fits the pattern of a scum tunnel more than a town tunnel. Why so eager to defend him? Why wouldn't I have a problem with someone tunneling my top townread?

Then this post just irks me...a lot

Town tunneling usually involves yelling at people for not seeing someone is scum, scum tunnel is usually to avoid discussion about other stuff. Thorough derek talked a little bit about other stuff...

[Dragon of the West]

seeing how we're at LyLo

how are you sure about this

[Dragon of the West]

@DotW It's 3v2 or 3v1v1 or 2v2v1. The first two scenarios are straight-up LyLos, whereas in the third one we need to lynch Mafia.

for the 3v1v1 isn't it still possible for town to win with either a no lynch or a mislynch though? The possibility of crosskill between scum and SK could lead to a town win, no?

[Dragon of the West]

I want to lynch Dragon I think.

Lynching group scum is the best scenario but it's like playing with fire. Miss and we certainly lose.

Alright.
VOTE: Derek
I'll sheep anyone who has a good case. Going with Dragon for now, since I was also sorta scumreading Derek.

VOTE: Derek

Dragon can hammer if he wants.

How did you get from lynch me to sheep me?

[Dragon of the West]

I'll have access to my laptop in ~12 hours from now. I'll be checking from my phone every once in a while.

looking forward to this

Actually, you didn't. I unvoted.
Will ISO in a few minutes.

also looking forward to this

[Dragon of the West]

Egg could you do the Derek ISO? I care about that one more to see if you see similar things as I do. Thank you for being the lone responder today