chilledtea's Mini Normal Review

[Marquis]

I agree with Ether here - even with stronger Mafia PRs and an 8-day deadline, the ratio of PRs to townies is a bit too high for comfort. I like the limitations you've placed, but it doesn't negate how scum will be up against a wide variety of threats from more than the usual amount of different players that are then made harder to kill at once. In other words, spreading out power like this amongst the Town just weakens Mafia because they can only lynch and kill one potential threat per phase anyway, regardless of X-shot modifiers.

[Marquis]

I like the Mafia PRs in isolation, so if you wanted to do that while removing some PRs and buffing most of the remaining ones (say, 4 PRs leftover) it'd definitely be better. And easier to judge balance for accurately.

[Marquis]

Oh hi I forgot to bookmark this

^same, sorry

"I don't want predictibility to affect the game." definitely agree with you here, and I think you've done a good job at avoiding that.

Maybe 1-shot tracker, 3-shot gunsmith, 2-shot vigilante, bodyguard, 5 vanillas - Town

Doctor, goon, vanilla cop - Mafia ?

Who is more powerful in practice? Gunsmith, or tracker?

Here, Tracker would be because you have 1 false positive and 1 false negative. It'll be a bit misleading, and I think the town is a bit too weak here due to being unable to trust their actions, as well as the vig being both positive or negative utility. It's a good PR distribution, but I'd say the Tracker needs to be buffed to at least 3-shot (or just make it a regular tracker) or just outright replace it with a watcher if we have this many actions going on.

Also, not sure if you settled on whether to let mafia use night actions or not, but. yeah

[Marquis]

Well, I guess I kind of think in a mini game the difference between a 3-shot tracker and a tracker is pretty much nothing. but i'm okay with this either way.

My thoughts.^

I'd like to see the full updated rules/first posts, including the Mafia action clause in it, but otherwise I'm ready to approve.

[Marquis]

You can use it as a mod thread.

That looks good, though. We still do need to see the final role PMs, rules, setup info, etc. already edited to reflect the changes (which is what I think the others have been waiting on too).

[Marquis]

I'm good with this and am ready to /approve.

Just remember that in the instance of a Tracker tracking another PR to the Ascetic, even if that action was ignored by the Ascetic, the Tracker will still see them visiting that target. Just in case, because that's the only real non-straightforward case of Tracker results. The rest as you probably already know are "visited XXX" or "didn't visit anyone" or "no result", etc.

[Marquis]

I wouldn't exactly call the bodyguard mislynch bait - if there were a power role you would consider removing it'd be that, imo. Looking at the setup again, scum is really relying on the Doctor's existence, and if it dies early it'll strengthen the BG claim/Gunsmith/Vig.

I can see both points, and personally I think I'm a bit biased by how lately 13p games have skewed in scum's favor. Or in better wording, scum have won a lot of recent games despite notions of what we've thought was balanced, and in general for any 2-scum-PR setup I'd want to give town more PR agency of its own.

Also, I think the setup would be better off if both of the 3-shot PRs were just simplified to infinite (no modifier). Otherwise it could lead to a situation where they trust/confirm each other more due to the matching X-shot count. Which isn't exactly a reliable way to trust a claim, but it's happened and if we're concerned about town steamrolling (which is more likely than scum steamrolling, even though I think this setup is fairly close to balanced) better to give them less details to check off in other claims.

[Marquis]

2-shot limits the vig, but 3-shot is effectively infinite in a 13p especially with that vig even existing. It won't really make it harder for town and I'd rather see it removed.

And coming back to the Bodyguard, I think it might be better if you wanted to remove or 1-shot that role as well. Taking a bullet still lets one of the strong PRs get results, and come claim time the BG hurts scum, for reasons including that a Bodyguard claim can be more or less checked by GS anyway.

[Marquis]

Can you give a quick role distribution summary of where we're at now? still would also like to see 3-shot simplified by just removing the x-shot modifier in that case, makes for a more open ended game setup spec wise.

thinking back on it again 1-shot bg seems too weak, so I'd be fine with Night X- (as in usable up to a certain Night (Night 3- would be usable Nights 1 2 and 3), Odd or Even Night, or Non-Consec for the BG instead. I don't like a case where he can without a doubt just camp on a publicly claimed PR each Night.

[Marquis]

I think I'd be okay with that. Tracker can be unlimited.

More and more I'm seeing mini balance as volatile, influenced mostly by playerlist experience and familiarity with each other. I didn't think that meta was so important in the past, but I think lately it's been camaraderie and familiarity among town that gets them grouped up and working together most often.

Idk, I'm rambling. Scum have been winning more often than town and it's hard to diagnose that. I don't think this setup skews too much in town's favor - as in, I don't think I'm intentionally balancing too far in town's favor here, but if Ceph or Ether have more points to make I'm still open to hearing them. Right now the setup looks fine to me, except that the Mafia will be reliant on their Doctor to live (or rather, the existence of which not be revealed for the sake of setup spec) moreso than the usual Mafia power role. I don't think it's that major of an issue though.

[Marquis]

feel free to poke her - I'm still good with this

[Marquis]

shoot her a PM

[Marquis]

I'll talk to N and sort something out.

[Marquis]

and/or I'll try to contact her on Skype

[Marquis]

"Mafia do not have the ability to privately communicate during the day, except via means of a power role."

echoing support for this.

[Marquis]

i don't want it to be like i'm telling you how to run the game but posts like these

i really hate insufferable cunts like you that deathtunnel me JJD.

i have justified my reasons for lynching michel, you're just a fucking ignorant twat.

are not acceptable. in particular calling others c***s and t***s as that's language that is intended to offend and absolutely unnecessary on the site. there's no reason why you shouldn't force replace him for those alone, especially if multiple others are at the least uncomfortable with his conduct.

[Marquis]

yeah "no personal attacks" is in your rules, so follow up on that

[Marquis]

Just for reference sake, if transcend is reported for these posts would he get banned/warned?

I'm only one listmod and as such I can't definitively answer this question on my own, but my last few posts should hint at my choice on the matter.

[Marquis]

WOTC is for signups, but force replacement isn't something that needs an excessive amount of formal justification. As a mod, you have full control of who plays your game, and if you feel that a player is "over the line" then it's a choice within your jurisdiction to make. (An exception would be when a player is reported and we take action while they're still in the game, though when we decide on what action to take, what games the action would affect are taken into account.)

But my point is that "no personal attacks" is a part of your rules, and in putting it there you've committed yourself to enforcing it. I'm still not sure how you stand on that, but the rule should never be implemented just for show.

[Marquis]

In the way that modkills for role PM screenshots or whatnot are done in order to help repair the integrity/health of the game, so are force replacements for behavior. Just noting that, as I personally don't think it should be a very difficult decision to make.

[Marquis]

the last option. you also want to secure this replacement before night ends so that the slot has a chance to make an action (whether or not it actually is a PR/scum), so working overtime to send feelers out to anyone you know would be good.

it sucks but it's just something you have to do as per your rules if someone notices they haven't picked up the prod.

of course, if they pick up the prod overnight before a replacement is found, they can stay.

[Marquis]

ah, well it's at your discretion of course. feel free to do either, the players won't mind either way

[Marquis]

bodyguard would still die since they targeted someone also targeted by a kill.

[Marquis]

bulletproof doesn't stop a kill attempt from occurring, but only prevents the actual death from occurring.

also, passive abilities are largely reactive rather than proactive - ascetic and bulletproof only really matter in response to outside triggers. there's no set order to NAR other than "apply actions that affect other actions before the actions they affect and actions that affect nobody else"