Newbie 1730 - To The North (Game Over)

[karnos]

Hi.

VOTE: ironstove

Let's wagon this scum.

[karnos]

Karnos and Skold seem kind of suspicious voting off the bat like that, unless there's something about this that I'm not getting. That said, Karnos accusing someone of being scum without them even posting is really weird. Either they aren't thinking before they post or they are scum and made a little slip at the beginning. hmmm. I'll be paying attention to them.

You should be paying attention to everyone.

As the game goes, the first few pages of a thread are usually dominated by "RVS", Random Voting Stuff. Typically nobody will ever have a super strong real scum read at this point, nonetheless it's an important part of the game. If you don't participate, then it stifles discussion and doesn't give as much stuff to read from to make more serious votes later in the game.

That said, there is sort of an oxymoron in the meta, as some players will scream loud and clear that you should NEVER vote someone unless you think they are scum. Taken to the extreme, that sort of thinking would seem to indicate that RVS is a bad idea, and you shouldn't participate in it, yet without going past the RVS stage there is very little to read anyone on.

That said, my personal perspective is that voting someone, whether town or scum, is a good thing early in the game, because you can get a wide range of reactions depending on how much pressure they feel. In some cases I'll even vote someone I *think* is town, because I want to confirm my thoughts. Perhaps ironically, voting for pressure doesn't provide any benefit at all if you admit you are actually just voting for pressure, so even in those cases I'm not going to limply vote and say something to undermine my attempt at creating pressure.

[karnos]

VOTE: innocentvillager

I don't like his iso.

[karnos]

VOTE: innocentvillager

I don't like his iso.

What specifically do you not like about his ISO?

He was spending a lot of time writing "IC stuff" and clarifying the basics of the game and very little time actually scum hunting. The scum hunting I do see from him seems flawed, in the sort of way a scum would see the game. That said, I've never played with him before, so it might just be his play style.

[karnos]

I'm a little preoccupied right now, can't make a detailed iso analysis post. But basically the issue I have is the ratio of theory/IC posts vs scum hunting posts.

I can accept a small number of scum hunting posts if the player is just low activity overall, but when he is making half a dozen IC posts he obviously had time to potentially make a similiar number of scum hunting posts, and choose not to.

Besides that, I find his scum case towards Enefpe to be a bit weak, but this has already been addressed by others.

[karnos]

Reason I switched from Mori to Karnos is that Mori might legit be AFK town while Karnos has posted a bit, and what he has posted has been utterly useless and he still continues to afk. Also weak excuses for being AFK. Anyway if Soula votes Mori tho, I'll go with Soula.

I don't have much to say right now. I'm voting my scum read. I'll try to make a stronger case on him later in the day if he doesn't change my read of him, but we have plenty of time for now.

[karnos]

Serious question: This is my first game on mafiascum so IDK what the normal is, are games always paced like this? This feels like a ridiculously slow game, but maybe for the rest of you it's just the more of the same?

Nope, it varies from game to game. These one seems a bit slow, in my case it started up while I was on vacation so I wasn't as active as usual.

It can be pretty random though. One slip or big accusation in the early game can lead to lots of content and make for a very active game, while lack of such can result in a slow and stagnant game.

[karnos]

Please kill Karnos, enf, or mori. Guys as a mafia collective let's train these guys and go next because it's reaching the point for me where I'm asking myself why I keep recheck in a thread that gets two new posts every day.

So you complain that nobody is posting, and then you request a lynch of 2 of the players who actually are posting. What kind of message are you really trying to send?

Also, Mori is replaced. Give the replacement some time to post before you demand a lynch please.

[karnos]

No, I read the mod list on page 1. It says "Mori *, rep. RAR4703" RAR4703 hasn't posted yet.

[karnos]

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

[karnos]

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

Um

Why is your vote on me then

There is no continuity in this post

It's a scum read based on Soula having inside knowledge that you will flip town. Of course if you actually flip scum, then that will show the read for just being a red herring as many reads are.

It wouldn't make sense to switch votes now, it's a conditional read on Soula based on your flip- which we haven't seen yet.

[karnos]

Iv I would read too much into his accusations the guy is just probing cuz it is d1 n getting reactions n reads. He's just walking around sniffing everyone's butt to see who is the liar

Are you referring to yourself in the 3rd person?

[karnos]

Wow pretty scummy. If you don't claim now I'll hammer you then.

UNVOTE:

Premature hammering like this isn't helpful. I'm not unvoting because I suddenly think IV is town, but I'd rather not see him hammered so early.

[karnos]

Karnos, is your only reason for voting me the ratio of IC to "scumhunting" posts? Which is a laughable accusation when most of said posts were 3 pages in and there was a lot of newbie-confusion going around.

Karnos can you answer this?

It seems like a silly question, but sure I'll humor you.

It's a reason, is it the only reason?

No.

[karnos]

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

How is it a scum flag if I believe Transcend is scum? I mean he's targeting IV as HIGH SCUM when I barely get anything negative from IV, except that IV is trying to be a helpful town. I mean, jeez. I'd like to nail Transcend as mafia in round 2 and honestly it doesn't do me any good to do this as mafia anyway. I'll just guarantee that I get killed if Transcend flips green.

You think Transcend is scum, so you decide to vote with him? WTF kind of logic is that? Why are you helping scum lynch someone?

[karnos]

ironstove reminds me of me in my first newbie game. I wonder if he will hammer Transcend?

[karnos]

So my question here is, why does ironstove look like you in your first newbie game (I'm assuming you were town in that game)? I'm assuming you're referring to his later D1 play since you said it recently, which I can reconcile with newbscum play. I'm trying to figure out if ironstove actually has scum!motivation behind these posts or is just confused accusatory townie.

Going by memory, I am not taking the time to revisit my first newbie game and do a post by post comparison.

I came to play here after playing the game on another forum (anandtech) which occasionally ran a game. On that forum, it was essentially what is called a "blitz" game over here, each game day was 24-48 hours. Lynches were usually whoever had the most votes at deadline (majority did not end the day early), and nights were short as well. Lots of crazy power roles. Very quick, random games. Reads were a minor part of the game compared to here.

So for my first newbie game, I was in a huge rush to lynch someone, I jumped to conclusions, I assumed any shady behavior was scum (when it can also be gambiting town, or town trying to get a reaction), and ultimately I helped scum win by lynching town.

From what I read, it sounds like ironstove came from a similiar environment of faster paced games, and his style just reminds me of mine.

Now, it could be scum ironstove, sure. But the determining factor to me is what he actually does, not what he says he does.

i.e., acting reckless and voting around wildly and threatening to quick hammer looks scummy, but if he doesn't actually quick hammer, maybe it's just what he considers to be some sort of reaction test. If he *actually did* quick hammer, then I'd have to revise my read and say it does look a lot more like a scum play style.

[karnos]

FOS: Soula

This is incredibly lazy of me, but I am starving and trying to check each of my games before going to lunch, so I can't take the time to do a proper vote count, otherwise I'd probably be placing a vote here.

[karnos]

EnT: can you pretty please get an avatar?

[karnos]

no.

You just got minus 50 karnos points.

[karnos]

{Soula, innocentvillager, Enefpe} There has to be at least one scum hiding among these, maybe two.

[karnos]

Use a different browser for your hydra.

[karnos]

Transcend, I just checked your read, you are: 9988

[karnos]

VOTE: Enefpe no Time

I like this lynch more now especially with innocentvillager resisting it.

L-1 btw.

[karnos]

It's a tasty little piece of cheese. Any scum want to hammer and collect it?

I'll trade town!Enefpe for a scum. It's a perfectly fair deal.

[karnos]

Also iv is lying, there can only be one pranay, and it is i

What?

[karnos]

You know, I wouldn't even be sad if Enefpe was quick hammered. Refusing to get an avatar and just general douchebag posting style is almost deserving of a policy lynch. Almost.

But he might just be scum, so it's not a policy lynch.

[karnos]

Everyone unvote Enefpe immediately and move on to your next top scumreads. Deadline is in less than 3 days, and this game is slow and inactive, and deadline lynches always go horribly wrong.

You are going to look real bad for this comment when Enefpe flips red.

[karnos]

I don't see a contradiction there. I don't like Karnos' "gambit" (or whatever the fuck he's trying to do). This implies that I think he's either scum or bad town. And I'm reading him as bad town.

It's not a gambit. It's called a win-win situation.

I think Elephantpee is scum. I want him lynched.

But if he isn't scum, there is a chance scum might quick hammer- and that would be okay too because then we caught scum.

Win-win. We only lose if stupid town quick lynches town Elephantpee, but I'm banking on the idea that we don't have any town that stupid.

[karnos]

My bad, karnos is a SE. But I still get newbie energy from him (dont take offense, I consider myself a noob aswell)

I don't mind. I think it's an evolution.

[karnos]

It's a tasty little piece of cheese. Any scum want to hammer and collect it?

I'll trade town!Enefpe for a scum. It's a perfectly fair deal.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

I also spent a little more time reading over Karnos' relatively low number of posts, and the first didn't really strike a chord with me until rereading the second one. This looks a lot to me like what Karnos was accusing Soula of doing in reverse.

"Only scum will hammer this, so anyone who is town now cannot hammer the lynch without getting lynched the next day."

It makes me think that Enefpe + Karnos team is a very real possibility.

Nice try.

Town can still give reasoning, give intent, and hammer after sufficient time. Look at the context. I put enefpe at L-1, and some people freaked out because he previously claimed PR. I can only assume the freak out was because scum could quick hammer, so my post was in response to that possibility- I don't consider it a serious concern. Either scum quickhammers and we found scum, or they don't and there is no reason to panic about someone being at L-1.

[karnos]

Alternatively, if you think I am scum partners with Enefpe, please vote him and help me bus!

[karnos]

Intent to hammer. Not my favorite lynch, but better than going no lynch for the day.

[karnos]

Low weekend activity sucks. To be more specific, I'm going to hammer tonight before going to bed (I'm EST), because I will not be around for actual deadline. If anyone on the wagon is having second thoughts, this is your chance to jump off.

[karnos]

I was gonna, but I see I have been beaten.

Lets see a red flip please...

[karnos]

Oh hey PenguinPower!

[karnos]

That wasn't an easy day 1 lynch. Almost hit deadline.

Question is was innocentvillager scum desperate enough to see a lynch go through that he hammered, or was he just town hoping for a scum flip?

Question 2 is, who was scum on the wagon?

fiddlercrabontheroof

(5): ironstove, Harkonnen97, Transcend,

Skold

, innocentvillager

[karnos]

Do you think it's likely there was no scum on the wagon at all? Meaning both scum are among {karnos, Joushi, Enefpe no Time}?

I think the potential town cred of not being on the wagon is pretty much zero, while the gain to scum of getting an extra townie killed is rather significant, so my personal thinking is that scum were either already on the wagon or waiting and ready to hammer at the last minute.

[karnos]

MAN WAS THAT GUY OBVIOUS TOWN

Who? Skold, or fiddler?

[karnos]

I'll trust you for now. I think Transcend is probably town.

But I prefer this lynch over IV:

VOTE: Harkonnen97

[karnos]

innocentvillager might well be scum, but one thing nags at me, is he could havbe just held off and let me hammer. Or if I didn't hammer, he could have the perfect case to push me as scum today.

He didn't have to hammer himself, and if he was scum he would have known the inevitable town flip would make his hammer look a little scummy. Why take the heat for that if he could instead sit back and let me hammer? I'm not saying he is clearly town, but that action does push him down a bit on my scum ratings, and hark's iso looks very scum to me.

[karnos]

VOTE: PenguinPower

Oops. Penguin replaced into the scum slot, that sucks.

[karnos]

Enefpe really hasn't done anything to make him look more town to me, and the fact that he wasn't NK'd is pretty surprising to me. Number one scumread in my book.

I really like this line of thinking. Like, he gave himself an out by not claiming a specific role, so like he might be bulletproof or something, but I think scum would have tested that and we wouldn't have seen a NK last night. That scum didn't even try to kill him is surprising.

[karnos]

My guess is we're in one of the setups with a roleblocker for mafia and scum blocked entsc action

Why? He hasn't even posted D2 yet, so what are you basing this on?

Actually I noticed some MAJOR flaw in Enefpe's previous claims and postings. If he doesn't come on and clarify shortly we should just lynch him.

[karnos]

VOTE: Enefpe

claim, and explain yourself.

[karnos]

Actually I noticed some MAJOR flaw in Enefpe's previous claims and postings. If he doesn't come on and clarify shortly we should just lynch him.

What was the major flaw?

Well, it depends on his response. There is potentially one valid town response, but I'm obviously not going to tell him what it is so he can fake it if he is scum. I want to see his claim and whatever else he has to say about himself first.

[karnos]

Okay, well I wanted to wait and see Enefpe's claim, but it looks like he is getting replaced and IV is making annoying noise again.

The whole issue I have had with his "partial claim" is that there is a very good chance the partial claim is actually a full claim for scum. By claiming we are in "setup C", if scum have a roleblocker they know exactly what setup we are in and what Enefpe's role is. If scum don't have a roleblocker, they know it's much more likely that Enefpe is a tracker.

Either way, his stupid "almost claim" is giving a lot of information to scum already, they probably know his exact role and setup, while it just confuses town. Of course if he is scum then that wouldn't be a concern, and I find it interesting that VI is opposed to a claim, as if he was scum he probably already knows Enefpe's exact role- either because of setup knowledge, or because Enefpe is actually his scumbuddy.

I'd be okay with a VI lynch today given his last post, but I really want to see what the new Enefpe has to say.

[karnos]

So, I get what you're saying, but how is that a major flaw and how does that point to Enefpe being scum? IV's post 591 makes more sense than what you have said, tbh.

The point is it's bad play. The whole point of not sharing your role is to keep scum from knowing what it is. The "i'm a PR" post was bad, but could be excused because it puts scum into a situation of no wanting to try to kill because the PR could be bulletproof and missing a night kill would be bad, but then he goes and says we are in setup C which is just way too much information to give scum.

If I knew Enefpe's exact role as scum, don't you think I would just kill him?? As opposed to letting him live even if he got down to a claim today?

See, this is flawed reasoning. If you know his exact role as scum, you have a roleblocker, so you don't really risk anything by keeping him alive, you can just block him every night. Alternatively, maybe you know his role as scum because he is your scum partner.


I think it's a perfectly plausible scenario that IV & Enepfe are our two scum.

[karnos]

VOTE: innocentvillager

Switching while we wait to hear from new!Enefpe

[karnos]

I don't disagree it was bad. But since when does "bad play" = "major flaw" that should result in lynching?

Well, I originally said there was a potential correct town answer that I could find acceptable. With proper reasoning and explanation I could see it from town.

Which is why I was trying to hold of on commenting until Epenfe came back... but too late for that now.

[karnos]

Get off of Enomis now. I swear I will quit mafia for a year (and finish current games) if Enomis flips scum. There is no way that slot is scum. Please.

Notice that this is

not

innocentvillager speaking with his IC cap on.

In other words, he could be lying here. I think there is a reason he is reading enomis differently from pretty much everyone else.

[karnos]

Of course, it could also be that scum!innocentvillager knows enomis is town because scum know those things, so he is going for town cred on a likely lynch.

[karnos]

See, I disagree with karnos's assessment that scum know what role enomis is. Firstly, that setup C claim was silly lol, and everything that follows rests on the hypothetical that he actually knew what he was doing when he was claiming "setup C". Even if you buy it, the only way they would know is if there is a RB, which is improbable (1/3 chance). That means that there's a 2/3 chance that they don't know whether he is Doc or Tracker (if you buy the "setup C" thing).

So he was getting pressured, he made a PR claim, and the claim is a lie, and we should let off all pressure because of that? Lying about a power role makes you town read someone?

Alternatively, he wasn't lying, he is a doctor or a tracker. If scum have a roleblocker, they know he is a doctor, AND they know we have a cop. That is the perfect reason to not kill him at night, and also the perfect scenario where scum know the entire setup but town does not. OTOH, if he is a tracker scum have a pretty good idea (if they don't have a role blocker, it's guaranteed that a tracker exists in the game, and if it's not epenfe it's someone else). Either way, scum has a lot of information thanks to the partial slip.

What happens if epenfe fully outs? He could actually be read as town by those who distrust him, this is huge. I still don't see him getting night killed, because scum would rather kill the cop if one exists. If he is night killed, it's still not the end of the world- epenfe.slot being lynched today, as town, would be catastrophic for town, but if he comes clean and claims a believable role and no counterclaim occurs, that means 1: we get a chance to lynch actual scum today and 2: scum can't nightkill someone else if they want to make sure he dies.

[karnos]

If you are still here, IV, if you, me, & enomis are all town who is the scum team?

[karnos]

Penguin & Transcend?

[karnos]

VOTE: innocentvillager

Switching while we wait to hear from new!Enefpe

We've heard...what are your thoughts now?

VOTE: enomis

This still needs to claim.

[karnos]

Sorry, I'm not scum this time. Penguin might be, or he might just be a bit paranoid after our last game. Fair enough...

Thing is I want IV & enomis lynched. That is why I didn't immediately change my vote back, because I'm a bit torn and I'd be perfectly happy seeing IV get lynched first. But you reminded me that enomis has flatly refused to claim until he is at L-1 with intent, so lets get that going first and then decide who to lynch.

[karnos]

Penguin & Transcend?

Interesting thing is I posted the above, and then shortly after Penguin voted me. Maybe I hit a little too close to the mark?

[karnos]

I think you may want to lynch both...but the explanation on switching back to enomis is weak. So, enomis claims PR, and you're back to where you started, but with a bit more info. Right?

I think you know it's not that simple. Depends on how the claim matches up with past actions, if it all makes sense. And who knows? Maybe he will claim VT or something.

[karnos]

Ok. That claim sounds plausible to me, I think enomis is town.

Back to:

VOTE: innocentvillager

I asked you a question yesterday ( 662 ), and then you mysteriously went away. Yes, you were V/LA, but you were posting minutes before and a short while after, you just completely ignored my question.

I realize there might exist some reality where you and enomis are both town, it's possible, but knowing my own alignment that really limits the choices for our scum team. Who is scum in the scenario that enomis, you, & I are all town?

[karnos]

Innocentvillager is probably scum roleblocker. He didn't need enomis to claim because he knows the exact setup.

[karnos]

I think we got this. Lynch IV today, penguin tomorrow after IV flips scum.

[karnos]

karnos (2): innocentvillager, PenguinPower

That is the only thing that gives me pause. I don't think scum would wagon up on me like that without a townie in there. Stranger things can happen though.

[karnos]

karnos (SE)

--- Probably Town:

enomis, rep. Enefpe no Time ***
ironstove
Transcend (SE)

--- Possibly Town:

Joushi

--- Probably Scum:

PenguinPower, rep. Harkonnen97, rep. Soula *
innocentvillager (IC)

------ Town:

fiddlercrabontheroof *, rep. Mori *, rep. RAR4703

Skold (SE)

[karnos]

Lmao

Well how do you feel about her explanation posts? The 143 might be the biggest reason I'm somewhat town reading that slot.

Honestly if you think someone is scum you should want to engage them even more, not plug your ears and shout "scum" "scum" like a child.

Are you guys fucking serious

Did you fucking maybe enomis claim

I told you fuckers to stop

VOTE: karnos
VOTE: karnos
VOTE: karnos
VOTE: karnos
VOTE: karnos

That was just rolefishing. You of all people should know better as town.

Lynch karnos or lose.

Do what I say, not what I do?

[karnos]

Interesting. I must be wrong about one of IV or Penguin, because Joushi basically just claimed scum.

[karnos]

Joushi & innocentvillager team makes a lot of sense actually, after re-reading Joushi's ISO with the possibility in mind. Maybe I want to see it because I'd prefer a town penguin, but I definitely see something there.

Heck, his first post is a classic chainsaw defense for his partner.

But really, his ISO is loaded with defenses for innocentvillager that don't seem to be warranted at all.

@Joushi: why were you defending IV so strenuously if he isn't your scum buddy? Where did this unshakable townread of him come from?

[karnos]

If it's not plainly obvious, this is the case for scum!Joushi:

Initially he thought enefpe & I were scum, because he thinks I would bus my partner. Okay.

Then he said he thought he was suffering conf bias, and maybe I'm not scum. Okay whatever.

After enefpe's replace,

"1.2. Getting Enomis to claim was ultimately beneficial to town, as it gives the village a near guarantee that one conftown between Enomis and Stove will make it into D3, regardless of what happens today or tonight"

I did that! And yet, somehow the fact that I did this thing that Joushi is calling beneficial for town makes him reconsider his read of me, and now I am scum?

The weirdest thing to me is that there is a perfectly valid reason to reconsider that I am scum- my flip on my read of enomis. I was voting him hard and ready to lynch him, and now suddenly I am reading him as town, WTF? If I wasn't me, and I was previously considering enomis+karnos as a scum team, seeing karnos flip his opinion like that certainly wouldn't make me think I was wrong, I'd just think that karnos decided he didn't need to bus, and could instead save his partner by town reading him.

Ultimately, I find your change of reads on me to be highly manufactured, not natural in any way.

[karnos]

And one other thing.

If he thought I was busing my partner enefpe, and now I am switching to innocentvillager and I am still scum in his mind, why doesn't he think I am busing my partner innocentvillager?

Clearly, because such talk could lead to innocentvillager getting lynched, and that is what Joushi is trying to avoid.

[karnos]

If you think A is scum and B is scum because of A, lynch A. Not lynch B.

Agreed.

You all should probably stop speculating partners.

Nonsense. It's a perfectly valid way to scum hunt, and it can be a helpful town-tell when someone has no clear potential scum partners.

[karnos]

I thought transcend was a cop or tracker.

You guys should have lynched joishi, i had the best case on him.

[karnos]

I hate trackers. The role, not the player. I think it's almost negative utility if you don't lynch scum on day 1, because it's so unlikely to get a hit.

I did have both scum called out as scum right before I got lynched, I just also had IV stuck in the group. I guess it's easy to nail the scum team if you call everyone scum at least at some point in the game. I am surprised IV was town after how strong he was against enomis coming out. I don't see how that was an anti-town play in any way, town needed to trust him or rule out the possibility of him being scum, while scum had a pretty good idea of his exact role already.

[karnos]

Also, I thought transcend was playing like he was because he was a cop or tracker.