Newbie 1730 - To The North (Game Over)

[ironstove]

VOTE: innocentvillager

No one is innocent in this world and anyone who says they are is obviously lying

[ironstove]

VOTE: InnocentVillager

[ironstove]

I'm new to this site, so this is my first game. I've played about a half-dozen or so games on other sites, though so I'm not completely newb.

I'll try my best to be helpful to the game

[ironstove]

I'm a VT!

I think it would be an appropriate start to a newbie game to accidentally kill a town by hammering in RVS XD

[ironstove]

I'll start with some questions! Feel free to answer if you'd like to get the game rolling:

1. How long have you guys been playing mafia?

I just started about 2 months ago, I was playing on a gaming forum and I liked the game enough to read wikis on setups and past games in mafiascum. Games played here are quite different from where I play in terms of setups and people being more aggressive, flaming, and activity (Days are usually 36-48 hours, nights 12 hours). I got the urge to register and try a game here to see how I fare in the slower environment.

2. In a 7v2 setup like this, what do you feel is the best approach to finding the scum?

I find that larger games where town outnumber mafia like this is much easier to mislynch on D1, so I don't give a lot of credence to scum reads on the first day. Once we have everyone post and gather information, we can go for a quick hammer and go into the next day to gather more information. Scum are much easier to fish out as the days go longer and we're in no danger of lylo occurring in the first 2 days, only after 2 mislynches would we be in lylo on D3, which I've found isn't as dire as it sounds because by that point it's very easy to spot who is scum.

3. Is your playstyle more engaged in posting or do you like to sit back and follow activity of others to get your reads? Do you have a different style when you play mafia or town or is it the same?

I would say I'm more of an engaged poster, I will take the time to go back and run ISOs on people every day, but it's not my bread and butter.

[ironstove]

Still waiting for the following players to make posts:
Soula
Enefpe no Time
innocentvillager (IC)

[ironstove]

I think the afk are scum hoping we Lynch ourselves :3

[ironstove]

I think the afk are scum hoping we Lynch ourselves :3

Hey Stove, I understand you're new (and my strongest townread at the moment), and I'd like to ask a little more from your posts. A lack of content in this post isn't really helpful other than showing activity, and our greatest weapon is information. The more information we have available the easier it is to find scum.

There's a couple ways you could help us with your next post. You could start pressuring people by asking them questions, you could give us your current take on what many of the players involved have already said and whether you think they're town or scum, and you could answer some of the questions people have already asked. Some of the questions that would be helpful for us include:

1. Was there a reason behind the relatively unprompted VT claim?
2. What is your take on differing activity levels of players between games?
3. Do you think it's helpful for us to lynch today or not? Why or why not?
4. What is your opinion of Soula? Both Innocent Villager (who I accidentally referred to as IC instead of IV in my previous post) and Transcend seemed to assume that Soula is town with very little information, where I don't think we have enough information to make that judgement call off of her first and only post so far.

Knowledge is power! Ask questions, or pose questions for yourself and answer them!

1. Well, I was 2 from hammer so I decided to role claim because I didn't want to wait until I was 1 from hammer and accidentally got meme lynched in my first game here.

2. I think people are always evolving and trying to improve their play styles. Maybe a person lost a few games and after analyzing they decided that being too active gave too much unnecessary attention, so they decided to tone it down, and vice versa. I don't read too much into changed activity necessarily being reflective of a changed faction or role.

3. If we can get by with a no-lynch then I'd like to go that route, generally I think it's a very mafia-esque thing to push for a policy lynch when it's not going to a plurality vote when EOD arrives. The longer the game goes the harder it becomes for scum to hide as they need to constantly tweak the smallest details behind their lies and it becomes easier and easier to find the loose thread in their story that unravels everything. With that said, I see days are going to be up to 2 weeks here so I could understand doing a policy no-lynch majority before that time arrives.

4. Not sure about him. I'm not very good at reading people LOL... My greatest strength and weakness is that regardless of whether I'm town or 3rd party trying to scum hunt, my reads have always been horribly off, my tunnels always lead to towns getting killed (This works out great when I'm mafia though!), and I usually figure out who the scum is from POE if I make it to end game... This is actually what I'm hoping to improve the most in my mafia game because stronger players are always able to sniff me out by end game if I am mafia, and I'm still getting fooled by the same players end-game.

I won't be shy about applying pressure though, but with that said I guess you can assume that whoever I am become certain is scum is probably going to turn out to be a town because I'm finding that the 'scum slips' which I point out are actually lazy/bad town players. Feel free to critique the posts I iso on, I'd appreciate knowing what it is I'm doing wrong.

[ironstove]

ironstove is solid town, if he's mafia a big fat loss is something I endure this game.

Trying to pocket a new player already?

With that said: Don't claim your role unless you're at L-1 (1 vote away from being lynched). Especially if the vote is in RVS. None of the 3 votes on you were legitimate votes and now scum have a better idea on who the PR's (power roles i.e. non vanilla townies) are.

Scum read. A vote is still a vote and waiting to claim 1 before hammer is risky. Pushing town players to wait until 1 from hammer is scum because on the off chance that mafia haven't voted yet and can hammer in a lynch, they will and can blame the town players for starting the train and optimally get another mislynch set up.

Also, claiming VT is nowhere near as bad as claiming a PR. If I was a PR, I would still claim VT. If I was a VT, I would claim a PR in some situations to in order to bait a shot from scum. I very well can still be a PR or VT, so claiming VT is meaningless and is equivalent to stating that I'm simply 'not scum'.

Scum ALREADY have a significantly ENORMOUS higher amount of information than town does since they know everyone's alignment in this game. It's best to withhold as much information from the scumteam as possible (i.e. claims) or else that just makes their win a lot easier.

Disagree again. Claiming is the right move in some situations, and having this binary view is either very weak town mentality or a scum play to push onto the newer players.

chill it with the walls please

a wall every once in a while is fine, but walling in every single post is going to make some players (me) not want to read you.

This post is another scum tell, trying to silence other players who are inciting activity and pulling players in to be engaged... Other posts you've made have come off scummy as well.

Based on this, you're scum... I'll let the rest of the town decide if they agree with me on this or not. Seems like very straightforward scum play.

VOTE: Transcend

[ironstove]

chill it with the walls please

a wall every once in a while is fine, but walling in every single post is going to make some players (me) not want to read you.

try condensing your posts

I like this guy

I like you too

I have a gut feeling that 1/2 or 2/2 of the players here are scum. I can see someone as a scum player writing this post sarcastically.

There's no chance that I'm town that correctly town reads you?

You sound nervous and you're deflecting the questions by implying I'm mafia for asking them... 100% scum.

[ironstove]

I think I agree with this. If you're a PR and you think you might get targeted and lynched quickly, it's better not to wait.

Disagree on claiming a PR role though. That just adds confusion to Town and the other PR. If you claim PR and you aren't one, the real PR Town will think you're suspicious, unless they have a way to verify if you are Town or not. And since the setup is random there's no way to guarantee a setup where you can promise they will check you and make sure you're Town first. It seems like it could very easily end up in lynching you if the real Town PR claims and presumes you mafia because you claimed. So not sure why you would say that; can you explain why that's a good idea to confuse Town like that?

But anyway, how the heck is claiming VT a meaningful gesture? VT stands for Vanilla Town, yes? If so, then why the heck wouldn't anyone claim to be Town? Just seems silly to say that. Like...it doesn't mean anything really.

Fake claiming a PR as a VT might seem anti-town, but I think it's a useful tool for validating other people's claims, taking pressure off yourself, and granting space for the actual PRs. I'm not saying this is the play and you should do it every game, but there are times when it is right. A good town player with a PR will know better than to CC because thinking a little further about it, it would be a bad mafia play to blindly claim a PR that can so easily be CC'd because even if you convince the town to mislynch the PR, you are gonna be lynched immediately after.

I don't mind people fake-claiming PRs if they know what they're doing and they have the capability to be town read afterwards.

The reasoning behind not claiming VT early is because other players said it helps mafia find the actual PRs, but I made the case that even as a PR I would still claim VT, so it's a meaningless claim in the end. I don't think mafia should be the only ones lying to town, sometimes its in the interest of town to have a player tell a lie to try to apply pressure, set up a play, or fish for/validate another player's information, my 2 cents on this.

Apologies for being long-winded, I normally don't take the time to discuss mafia theory like this but since this is a noobie game I figure I should explain myself a little better although I think doing such a thing is also extremely counter-productive to town as it draws attention away from the scum hunt... I would normally view this as a subtle scum tell by trying to incite meta discussions, but I'll lay back for now since we're still only on page 3

[ironstove]

VOTE: Transcend

[ironstove]

VOTE: innocentvillager

I don't like his iso.

What specifically do you not like about his ISO?

[ironstove]

Transcend and enefpe are mafia

[ironstove]

Mori's replacement, rar is most likely town.

[ironstove]

Do mafia have a day/night chat?

[ironstove]

Scum having day chat is something I take into consideration when scum hunting.

Having played mafia both with and without day chat I can tell you it makes a big difference.

I don't see how that post looks forced.

[ironstove]

@Joushi, also don't know why you think my town reading mori is scum. It's a meta read because scum usually don't get subbed out.

[ironstove]

i assuem you tr her because you fos us

stove answer pls buddy

I said it's a meta read, most times I've seen people subbed out they are town.

[ironstove]

What's nai?

Also Karnos post above me feels very scummy. Idk if activity in another game is reason for suspicion I've seen town players do it.

I don't think iv is the Lynch I haven't seen enough reason to Lynch one of the more active players in the game

[ironstove]

I think mori or karnos are good lynches for D1, I'm fine with lynching mori. Him and karnos are null reads but they've both been useless so far in the game and I'd rather remove the nulls beforehand in order to progress the game.

VOTE: mori

[ironstove]

Actually, I changed my mind.

VOTE: karnos

[ironstove]

If you think I'm scummy, then vote me. There's been momentum on me. Why have you pursued shit-lynches like Mori whom you don't even fos over me who you do fos?

Ridiculous. Pretty much all of the scum tells have been laughable up to this point. People just keep harping on little things and seeing what they want. I voted Enefpe because she/he made accusations and then wouldn't back them up, which I could easily see a newbie mafia doing without realizing how obvious that makes them. That's a lot more reasonable then going after people because you interpreted their posts as scummy. I voted Mori because I don't like the unknown factor. I followed a game where some players were more or less absent the whole game or subbed out only to turn mafia at the end. That totally ruins the game. If wanting to avoid that makes me look scummy, then I've pretty much lost interest in this game. And feel free to vote me.

And honestly, I don't think you're scum at this point. Scum-reading me over one little thing is a little annoying, but your play-style has been too overt and prickly for mafia. You're making yourself a target and that doesn't really make sense to me. It would just make the game a lot harder for you to do that. It doesn't add up. But if you are doing that and manage to pull it off, I'll be impressed.

No, I'm sticking to Mori for now because I want them to post and join the game; otherwise I want them gone for the huge annoying unknown factor. If that makes me scummy, so be it.

Solid post, I agree with this reasoning.

I'll sheep soula's vote.

[ironstove]

Reason I switched from Mori to Karnos is that Mori might legit be AFK town while Karnos has posted a bit, and what he has posted has been utterly useless and he still continues to afk. Also weak excuses for being AFK. Anyway if Soula votes Mori tho, I'll go with Soula.

[ironstove]

Serious question: This is my first game on mafiascum so IDK what the normal is, are games always paced like this? This feels like a ridiculously slow game, but maybe for the rest of you it's just the more of the same?

I don't mind the long day phases, but I've finished 4 mafia games on other sites since this one started. If this is the regular pace for all games on this site, then maybe it's not for me. I keep checking back in on this thread and I see no new posts.

Maybe this isn't for me, because I'm getting impatient with the lack of progress. I want to just BW on a lynch to get the game progressing or get mod killed because people come by and post here like every 3 days or something.

[ironstove]

Please kill Karnos, enf, or mori. Guys as a mafia collective let's train these guys and go next because it's reaching the point for me where I'm asking myself why I keep recheck in a thread that gets two new posts every day. Idagf if you guys think I'm scum for trying to run a train I'm getting sick of being in this game with a guy saying he's gonna go camping got the next few days. When I sign up and confirm for a game I treat it as a commitment and I don't waste other people's time going afk for days because I can and mess with the Ux of others.... But yes that's just me. Apparently I can't sign for more than one game because I don't meet the experience requirement zzzz

Mafia please kill me.

[ironstove]

Choo choo!!!! Chugga Chugga Chugga Chugga!!!!!

[ironstove]

Maybe mafia can be gents and kill the inactive vts on n1 as well and then we can actually start playing a real game? I'm reaching out to you mafias out there to look past our differences n put factions aside n do what's best for the overall community by axing the people who litter on the streets, kick toddlers, lift puppies by their tails, and idle carelessly after signing mafia games... these are overall just bad people with poor moral fiber n they need to be eliminated.

[ironstove]

We as town will have more fun as your legs flail about frantically above on the gallows, you as mafia will feel more fulfill as you kill are killing a real person rather than murdering a comatose vegetable, a person in a state many would consider to be worse than death. Where is the joy in that?!?!

[ironstove]

Sorry my phone LOL autocorrect so awful

Sorry about the spam but this thread is dead anyway

[ironstove]

You obviously aren't even reading because mori hasn't been replaced LMFAO

[ironstove]

Exactly, you haven't even read the thread. Mori came back before he was replaced and you're claiming that 2/3 people I want lynched are active posters? LMAO.

I think someone pointed out that collectively the three of you have less posts on this thread than the moderator posting lynch counts.

[ironstove]

Just take one for the team and self-lynch because you're a useless town player anyway, you have the audacity to come here and write a post criticizing my lynch choices saying that I'm wrong to call them out for being inactive/indifferent when you yourself haven't even read 7 pages of posts on this thread to realize that the OP is inaccurate.

[ironstove]

You said when you came back you'd write more detail on your lynch picks, you haven't done that. You're only pop in continuing to be useless saying my picks for lynches are bad because they're active players. GFY. You're 100% CERTIFIED USDA SCUM.

VOTE: KARNOS

[ironstove]

Skold is the mafia.

You want the town to become complacent so you can sneak by and snag an easy win.

What's the fun in that skold? You're not even challenging yourself, how can you improve as a mafia player if you are always running away from difficult times?

VOTE: SKOLD[/B]

[ironstove]

WHOOPS

VOTE: SKOLD

[ironstove]

Such horrible scum tells, like why are you making this so easy? If town weren't a bunch of zombies, then this game would be over already since I solved the entire game for them, just need them to get out of their coffins and cast votes.

[ironstove]

Nice manufactured rage trying to town tell. Obvious scum is so obvious with the linear brain strats.

[ironstove]

Xalxe are you throwing in those quotes as plugs for us to listen to your podcast? =)

[ironstove]

If I hammer iv and he flips town will you all stop with your awful reads please?

[ironstove]

Just hop on my Tokyo bullet train headed to Lynch city with its first stop at karnos' neck

[ironstove]

Nice manufactured rage trying to town tell. Obvious scum is so obvious with the linear brain strats.

Ironstove, I suggest you stop this attitude as well. I'm not seeing the "obvious scum" that you accuse Skold of, and you are not helping your case by not explaining or pointing out specifics. It seems like you, along with Enefpe, may be too entrenched in confbias to evaluate accurately. If not, show us with specific quotes and reasoning.

Dude just trust me, you think I'm town. He is scum... Karnos is 90% scum so he's the Lynch

[ironstove]

Iv I would read too much into his accusations the guy is just probing cuz it is d1 n getting reactions n reads. He's just walking around sniffing everyone's butt to see who is the liar

[ironstove]

A man does not respond to a question from a scum.

[ironstove]

Lol this guy reads soula as hard scum LMFAO LYNCH HIM HE'S SO BAD AT SCUM.

[ironstove]

BTW I feel this is obvious but just in case I'll mention: if you're L-1 n a pr you need to out.

[ironstove]

Wow pretty scummy. If you don't claim now I'll hammer you then.

[ironstove]

I scum read karnos because I caught him blatantly lying about reading the thread when he justified his lynch. He's also been AFK up until I started applying pressure on him and now he prob feels the need to come out and defend himself.

The lynch on you out of the blue with no reason is scummy. Trying to run a train is also scummy. He also scum reads my highest town read soula.

Skold is not as heavy of a scum read, I fos him due to his unhelpful attitude, trying to shut down tunneling, reduce pressure and make town complacent. He hasn't helped at all in the scum hunt, he's just jumping in and out criticizing people's choices saying why they have the wrong person, this is something mafia do a lot to appear engaged but not contribute anything useful.

Tbh I also scumread IV, if he was really town he would have just asked to be lynched knowing the people who FOS him are suspect, and karnos trying to jump off the lynch train is also FOS because he knows if IV got hammered he would be next.

I was bluffing about the hammer, I wanted to see your reaction and it was still pretty scummy.

[ironstove]

I think it's too early to bus a teammate, so if IV flips town then I'm tunneling karnos/skold like fuck.

I really want to lynch karnos today.

[ironstove]

It should be moderately obvious that stove-kun is town. Righteous energy, lots of it. I dont see what you see in soula.

Transcend have you played em your name sounds familiar?

That's stove-sama for you.

[ironstove]

That soula post @ #183 is actually disgusting.

[ironstove]

I iso'd Soula and I think he's maf. I was wrong in town reading him.

[ironstove]

MY MAFIA SENSE IS TINGLING.

VOTE: SOULA

[ironstove]

VOTE: karnos

[ironstove]

Karnos is the most scummy Lynch but iv Lynch gives the most information I think.

[ironstove]

I thought enf might be playing cop poorly but iso'ing his posts that's not the case, he's not cop.

[ironstove]

What happens if we lynch our IC? Is that like killing jesus?

[ironstove]

I think Soula is more scummy than IV, I still am not sensing a heavy scum read from IV. I'm getting more towny vibes from Karnos and Skold.

[ironstove]

Why do you have multiple MS accounts?

[ironstove]

I town read IV, I don't think he's the lynch. Although I do think his lynch provides a good cache of information to use in determining who is mafia in this game.

I am getting scum vibes from: skold, soula, and enefpe

null reads from joushi, transcend, karnos, and fiddler.

Enefpe, what are your reads so far this game?

[ironstove]

VOTE: Enefpe

[ironstove]

unlynch

[ironstove]

I town read IV, I don't think he's the lynch. Although I do think his lynch provides a good cache of information to use in determining who is mafia in this game.

I am getting scum vibes from: skold, soula, and enefpe

null reads from joushi, transcend, karnos, and fiddler.

Enefpe, what are your reads so far this game?

Bud.

You're supposed to make reads based off of content IN the game.

Not content from random.org

This is my first game on mafia scum, I don't know what a mafia scum mafia looks like. Everyone here is so civil and calm, I'm used to people flaming each other in all caps and people who aren't typing all caps are generally hard scum reads.

Dearest oni-stove-chan,

Didnt i literally just post my reads

I dont see how you could see anyone as null at this stage. Unrelated, why do you see me as scummy? Aside from say, bein a weirdo

I don't have a strong scum read on anyone except soula. His tone seems really fake, although he made one post that made me TR him hard.

For newbs you guys play pretty well, I'm just a mangy dog who crawled out of the dark alley and feels awkwardly out of place in the brightly lit dog park surrounded by my well-groomed and better-behaved peers.

[ironstove]

The thing about all-caps was half joke btw. Like you should see the game I'm in on another forum, it's only been open for about a day and it's already 32 pages long and has more flames in it than the firebombing of Dresden XD

[ironstove]

Sorry I can't definitely say with confidence who I think is town or scum. I've played enough games to know my town reads end up being scum and my scum reads end up being town... Sorry about the splurge earlier as well, I was getting a little impatient, but in my defense I do get the feeling that I was partly responsible for kick-starting the activity back into this game as well

[ironstove]

Nice omgus

You're fucking scum mate

>>>I hard claim Vigilante. Vote Transcend or I'm shooting you tonight<<<

What is this post? Why would you fake claim a vigi? All of your posts up until this point seemed very serious and then you throw out a rando fake claim of a role that isn't in this setup.

Also, why does everyone town read me so hard? Is it because of that 'I'm a VT' post I made on P1? LOL. Is it really that easy to appear town to people?

[ironstove]

Oh yea? Don't think I have the balls huh? Why don't you lynch me and find out???

[ironstove]

fiddler replaced mori and has been a veg

VOTE: FIDDLER

[ironstove]

Don't get too full of yourself mate. I'm townreading you because I don't think you have the balls to do that as scum.

BTW this kind of reasoning sounds scummy.

[ironstove]

I'm excited I get to play with a burst of activity and my top scumread actually has someone voting for them again

That said, I didn't notice this before you posted Hark, but I'm surprised Stove (who said "EnT isn't cop") just kind of accepted the pr claim. What changed Stove?

He claimed PR, why would I lynch him? I don't think he's cop, but he could be a different PR. Unless someone CC's him? TBH, I kind of want him to hard claim because I still think enefpe is acting very scummy.

I went back to read the interaction between soula and enefpe, and I thought soula was overreacting/acting dramatic as scum, but because she actually replaced herself, mmm I guess that's towny enough for me.

[ironstove]

Prod fiddler plz

[ironstove]

I'd like to lynch fiddler today because he's been mega afk, and I want to eliminate the null reads. We're not in lylo or mylo, there is a chance fiddler is town, there is a chance he is mafia, but he has given almost no information so I am certain he needs to be removed today, I don't think we can progress this game with someone like fiddler still in the game.

I don't think enfpe is the lynch today if he is claiming PR.

I will also vote for Hark or Transcend.

I have my vote currently sitting on Fiddler.

[ironstove]

So please put aside your tunnels for now and vote fiddler IMO.

[ironstove]

I don't have any opinion of him atm, it's still D1. Seems towny enough to be town, but almost too towny. Anyway I don't read him as town or scum atm.

[ironstove]

Yep, that's hammer.

[ironstove]

Yea the skold kill doesn't make sense. I would think someone like the PR claim (enefpe) or the person who is being town read by other players (arguably me) would be the best target.

Not sure how you guys are town reading me, because in other games I sign, I always get lynched LOL. Dumb town telling? IDK. With that said, my win rate on EM is abysmal as mafia, it's like <20%

[ironstove]

Is it possible that he is actually town (Whether or not he's PR is a different issue) but the scum decided to keep him alive in the hopes that we would lynch him because he looks like a suspect for not being dead?

[ironstove]

I think enefpe needs to hard claim today. I'll wait on his response.

[ironstove]

I don't think he does.

Can you explain why?

FMPOV, he claimed a PR already, at this point what benefit does it serve him or town to not hard claim his role? He could be mafia just lying about being a PR, and if he is caught fake-claiming we can lynch him today.

[ironstove]

Should probably put this out there

VOTE: Enefpe

Are you lynching enefpe because you believe he is scum lying about being a PR or for a different reason? If the first, how certain are you that he will flip scum from a scale of 1-10?

[ironstove]

Because, if he was telling the truth, it would help scum know exactly - or at least narrow it down to two - what setup we're in. That helps scum, but doesn't help town. If he's caught fake-claiming, the it outs a true PR which will almost certainly be NK'd.

This just feels like extremely weak, almost forced reasoning. In what situation would scum knowing what setup they are in help them? I'm looking over the 3x3 matrix of roles and enefpe basically declared he was either doctor or tracker when he said that we're in the 'column C' setup.

What short of telling mafia whether he is doctor or tracker makes it a big difference? That they know the other PR is either bulletproof, tracker, or cop? Still not buying this reasoning as a good enough excuse to let him get away with the way he has played, so I am not relenting on pressure until he responds.

[ironstove]

Actually I noticed some MAJOR flaw in Enefpe's previous claims and postings. If he doesn't come on and clarify shortly we should just lynch him.

What was the major flaw?

[ironstove]

Not related to the game, but where did you find the page with the win rates? Can you give a link?

[Nerd Talk] I think it's very interesting that column A and row 3 both have such horrible win rates for town, the only common variable is the 1-shot BP, you'd think that it's lack of good PRs, but Row 1 (Jailer + VT) is almost identical, and arguably worse than Col A (Jailer + BP), yet the gap in win rate is ~15%. I'm hoping the page you link has more information on this.
[/Nerd Talk]

[ironstove]

even if he says yes he won't self vote instead he will fos another player lol

[ironstove]

Like I said, I'm done trying. I've been trying to get this guy lynched since about page 1 no joke and I haven't given up yet. He is textbook motherfucking scum and either you guys are gonna trust me or just ignore me. You let this guy escape rope D1 and we lynched town.

Can you explain why he's scum? What posts make you convinced he is mafia?

[ironstove]

IV do you mind posting your updated reads on the players in the game ? Is there anyone you're town or scum reading?

[ironstove]

Again, my answer is no.

You're gonna blind trust me and lynch him.

Or you're not gonna blind trust me and not lynch him.

I don't care at this point.

What have you done thus far to deserve my trust and respect? Nothing you've said thus far has carried any merit, and you can blame it on me for being a bad player, but it's actually on you for being awful at communicating your ideas. No one here is going to be able to go into your head and understand what it is that you're thinking and in a game that is based on lying and manipulating people's trust, expecting me to blindly follow you is stupid. Can you understand why what you're saying is really stupid and why I'm not taking you seriously?

[ironstove]

Transcend, if you were in my position what would you do?

[ironstove]

why is it a load of crap?

[ironstove]

just is

i'm bad at explaining myself, hence why i'm banking on you just trusting me

I don't like this at all. Your tone is completely different than what it was in the beginning of the game. Comparing your posts now to pages 1-6, you went through in more detail than now on why you were acting the way you were.

Your initial scumread of IV is that you don't like how enefpe was townreading skold more than IV, and scum reading IV/joushi.

Going through more of your posts, you didn't provide further reasoning, you just kept tunneling IV and proceeded to not give any more details besides that initial post about how the post he made on page 2 of this thread seemed mafia.

[ironstove]

Anyway, my scum reads so far this game are:

enefpe, transcend

town reads are:

joushi, innocent villager, penguin

still not sure about karnos. doing another read of this thread, karnos' has a really scummy entrance, but he slowly gives more town reads as the game progresses.

[ironstove]

Joushi, when you are making those number URL posts, are you adding the links in manually by typing the number and copying the link to the post or is there a faster way to do this?

[ironstove]

town reads are:

joushi, innocent villager, penguin

when the latter two people in this list are seen laughing their asses off in a private topic on this site postgame will you sheep me in future games?

No, not at all because you're not trying in the least to convince me you're town, if not this game then at some point if i keep lynching you you'll eventually land scum and i'll be right.

[ironstove]

Well if there is a rb there is a chance maf kept him alive because they knew they could RB him and target someone else in the hopes of hitting a PR rather than using a kill on someone they know they could block anyway.

If mafia have roleblock it makes more sense why enefpe is still alive.

[ironstove]

With that said, if we are in the setup with roleblock, we're in row 2 so we have a cop/doc however outting cop at this point if enefpe is doc is quite useless as well because we know that they will rb doc and kill cop, so unless cop has a guilty on someone, I don't think he needs to out yet but I do think D3 if cop is still alive he needs to out with his reports so we at least know who is clear.

[ironstove]

@Enefpe's replacement (If I'm not here) DO NOT CLAIM (especially if you are Diagonal PR, but also if you're protective).

Can you explain why not outing his PR claim is +EV for town? I agree with karnos' assessment that mafia most likely already know what the PR is, and hiding his PR at this point is more harmful to town than anything else.

[ironstove]

Also IV, another question why does it matter if he's a diagonal ? I'm missing the significance of this detail.

[ironstove]

Man, that explanation from enomis is so bad.

There is a possibility that if enefpe was claiming PR and column C, he only did so because he was hoping someone with an actual PR would CC and then he could target and kill them.

However, this is such a bad mafia play as well, I can't understand the reasoning behind it besides not caring about the game anymore.

For example if a jailkeeper or town cop are in the game mafia could hope that they try hard to push a lynch on enefpe in order to find who is softing a PR and target them for a NK. Any good PR would not hard claim and say something along the lines of 'hey this guy isn't a PR because I'm either cop/jailer keeper, he's so full of sh*t we need to lynch him'

Maifa would pay attention to who was pushing a lynch after the PR claim.

If you ISO skold's posts, you can see he still attempted to lynch enefpe after enefpe claimed PR and column C, this to me indicates that mafia believed skold was a PR which is why he was NK'd, this also explains why enefpe was not killed (I also indicated the possibility that there was a RB in the game for mafia, which is why enefpe was kept alive, so I was waiting to hear enomis' response before making my decision about this).

Yes, there is a chance enefpe is a PR, but enomis still refusing to hard claim when the majority of town are pushing for it and his reasoning (or lack of reasoning) on why hard claiming beyond implying he is either doctor or town tracker feel really flimsy. What possible gain does town have at this point to not know the actual PR? If mafia do have a RB, they will RB him again and he still won't provide us with any information if we keep him alive while they still target the other PR amongst town.

I am not hard-claiming until i am at L1 and someone intent to hammer. Here's why

Case 1:
I am vanilla townie. Me claiming now would not give any additional info.

Case 2:
I am PR and i have not made any significant check that i think will give town additional info. I also did not , jail keep , save anyone or shot by anyone who were significant last night since two town were killed.

-----------

Also, i think enefpe action of soft-claiming PR actually pushes him more towards town than mafia,(If i look at it objectively and i will explain that in the next post.)

So your explanation for not hard claiming here is that you don't have any useful information, hence there is no reason to hard claim despite the fact that mafia already know you are a PR? This is just dumb. You're either a really, really, really bad mafia player, or you're mafia. I'll give your skills the benefit of the doubt and say that you're mafia.

VOTE: Enomis

[ironstove]

I also REALLY don't like how IV has been adamantly trying to defend enomis, that post was utter shit. There is nothing to defend there.

Also LOL @ enomis saying he is reading enefpe's play is more town than mafia and criticizing us all for not agreeing with it, he also did not make any comments on the interaction between himself and soula, and trying to provide any reads on the information that interaction had.

Obvious scum here in panic mode trying to get us to town read him and knows if he hard claims he will be royally screwed.

[ironstove]

IV has also ignored these two posts I made directly addressing him, IV please respond:

@Enefpe's replacement (If I'm not here) DO NOT CLAIM (especially if you are Diagonal PR, but also if you're protective).

Can you explain why not outing his PR claim is +EV for town? I agree with karnos' assessment that mafia most likely already know what the PR is, and hiding his PR at this point is more harmful to town than anything else.

Also IV, another question why does it matter if he's a diagonal ? I'm missing the significance of this detail.

[ironstove]

Am I misreading the setup? I thought there were 6 possible setups, not 9, where do you even get 9?

It says the setup is chosen based on 1 row or 1 column from the grid, so that's a possible of 6 different choices. It doesn't say anything about diagonals, and even if you do include a diagonal, that's only +2 more possible setups.

HOST/MOD: Can you please clarify how many possible setups we have in this game?

[ironstove]

Not PR claiming btw, I honestly am just very certain he is town.

Why are you certain? You seem to have a strong town read on him, has enefpe made posts which you can highlight that are strong town-tells? I didn't see anything that made me read him one way or another strongly besides the PR claim.

Also, I'd like you to explain why hard claiming a PR at this point hurts town and helps mafia from your point of view because FMPOV it's +EV for town and neutral to mafia.

[ironstove]

IV can you go back and answer the questions I and Penguin asked you in the last two pages when you have a chance?

[ironstove]

I already explained the play: The play is that if he claims setup C, and there is a jailer or cop in the game, they will sus his claim as PR and either try to counter his claim outright, or soft a claim by pushing a lynch on him, which is what Skold did, and skold is now dead while you're alive.

I'm not moving my lynch on you until you claim, and if it's -EV for town to do so then I guess that's the way it's going to be and you can thank enefpe for putting you in this situation.

[ironstove]

Here's the thing though, if he's mafia why would he be so adamant about not lynching enomis if enomis is town? To make himself appear more town in the process? Actually, if enomis ends up flipping town with IV not explaining why he is TRing enomis so hard, then I would FOS him at that point because only a player who has information that a town player shouldn't have and doesn't want to share i.e. mafia would have the confidence to go against a lynch like this.

[ironstove]

Everyone just lynch enomis and make him claim.

[ironstove]

I don't know.

[ironstove]

enomis, there is no reason people should be town reading me so hard, and the fact that both transcend and IV are so adamant that I am a town makes me FOS them both.

We very well could have a transcend/IV team here with transcend busing IV from the start of this game.

[ironstove]

Yes it is. Enomis, you claim now.

[ironstove]

I was going to wait a bit, but I'm pretty convinced at this point. I'm going to keep my thoughts on your scum buddy to myself for now.

VOTE: karnos

You're playing your scum game right now.

Why are you convinced karnos is scum?

[ironstove]

Karnos, is this true? Is this how you would play your scum? If not, then how would you have played the situation instead?

[ironstove]

UNVOTE: enomis

[ironstove]

If tracker outs, we have another clear + doc can hit tracker and tracker can hit doc.

(Insert wifom here where maybe because we declared this strategy we don't necessarily follow it because mafia know it now and they don't want to try to waste a kill on either tracker or doc).

[ironstove]

We don't necessarily have to follow the above strategy, just pointing out that this combination will almost guarantee us 2 clears going into the next day and avoid wasting time trying to lynch a PR on D2. However with doc outted, if we have a tracker, he would be targeting doc regardless, and if we don't but have a cop, he should not out.

I think it's the better play to out tracker if he is in the game because mafia already know if the other PR is tracker or cop. If tracker is out, then doc and tracker should both survive to D3... Obviously if there is a cop in the game then we don't out... but I don't see a point in hiding tracker.

[ironstove]

there's a 0% chance we're gonna have any tracker go on the doc.

Why is there a 0% chance that tracker would not target the doc? And in the situation of a tracker being in the game, why would we not out the tracker to save the doc?

With that said, I have a feeling that we're in the setup with a cop because assuming enomis' claim is legit and he's not dead, he was probably role blocked so that means our other PR is a cop.

Anyway, I don't think there is any more reason to discuss this then unless tracker reads this and decides he wants to out to guarantee 2 clears going into day 3 when it is going to be MYLO. Narrowing down the scum tomorrow if we mislynch today will help tremendously.

[ironstove]

I am getting bad vibes from iron stove man... Omg

No, tracker do not follow me. What's the point, scum will just kill me once we decide on this plan. If I do not get cced I am like fking town. Can the people who want me to claim tell me now what we get from my claiming.

Tracker is not watcher

If tracker is on you then he will out one of the 2 mafia, how is this not a good play?

[ironstove]

Alright nevermind, I got tracker mixed up with another role, I thought tracker gets a report of who visited their target during the night. Disregard everything I just said.

[ironstove]

That's right mafia, I'm not tracker.

[ironstove]

IV, are you town reading me for the same reasons that transcend mentioned above?

[ironstove]

And were you reading enomis' slot as town for the same reasons? If not, what was the reason you were so sure about enomis being a confirmed town?

[ironstove]

IV is looking less and less towny.

[ironstove]

The angel brushed my thigh.

[ironstove]

You ignore questions, answer selectively, and don't provide reasons for your town reads.

Can you post your read list IV?

[ironstove]

Seems like you're pretty dodgy with pressure

[ironstove]

They're both scum reads for me, Transcend has been a scum read for me from the start, while IV was someone I had a strong town read on, but IV is not answering why he town read me, or town read enomis' slot, and isn't answering questions about his thought process, he's ignored my questions towards him for the last 3-4 pages, which is drastically different from the way he has played at the start of the game.

I know he said he will be going on vacation, so maybe the vacation planning/preparation has him distracted, but he could also just be trying to dodge the pressure.

[ironstove]

Hmm, I'm not scum tho, but I agree that asking that question is dumb however in my defense the OP doesn't specify if scum have either day or night chat, and I was asking about day chat because I've played scum with a day chat and I know it impacts how scum play for example, you're less likely to see a scum tunnel his partner for a lynch on D1 prior to agreeing to it, so knowing this, once a person flips scum, I look back on their D1 chat to see who they applied very weak to no pressure on.

Karnos initially came in scummy, but he feels more and more towny as the game has progressed. I still think transcend is scummy, joushi has been flipping between null/town for me, and IV was a town read to me for the most part, the only problem is that some of his emotional posts seem a little fake considering how calm of a person his other posts make him out to be.

Still not sure who to lynch right now.

[ironstove]

But i don't think he will be a good lynch today so i am gonna ignore him. But make sure u all reassess your reads of him tmr because i am going to die regardless. I think.

You might still be alive... Enefpe made it to D2 after outting himself as PR which is why I fos'd him, my suspicion for this was that he was either mafia lying about PR in a closed setup, or he had been roleblocked and mafia instead chose to hit someone else hoping they would hit the other PR.

If that's the case, then we have a cop and the mafia will probably roleblock you again and try to hit whoever they feel is cop in this game.

[ironstove]

IV why are you scum reading me? POE?

meta defense: I am too awful of a player when I roll mafia to have survived this long without someone suspecting me as a strong scum read

[ironstove]

If IV was mafia, why did he not blitz Transcend (Assuming he is town) when Joushi (Assuming he is town) parked his lynch on Transcend?

I understand the time difference between the posts was about 1 hour, but it's interesting that day starts @ ~1 PM, Joushi makes his post and Transcend immediately follows up asking Joushi to remove the posts like within 15 min, but he follows up with a post:

Fucking hell Xalxe i stayed up all night to make sure to tell no one to vote and you start the day late.

If you stayed up all night to tell everyone to not vote, I mean, you had 6 hours to do so, but you conveniently popped up immediately after Joushi.

Anyway, if that's the case then I think IV is town, if IV is town, then Joushi is scum. If Joushi is scum, this confirms for me that Transcend is town.

[ironstove]

I think 1 hour is more than enough time to blitz sometime, I'll admit I hadn't checked on the thread because 3 days of night is ridiculously long and I am signed in other games, I forgot to check on this one.

I'd also like to ask for a fast night, I didn't know that was an option.

[ironstove]

I suck at end game, I wish mafia had just killed me N1 lol

VOTE: innocent villager

[ironstove]

If IV flips mafia, please kill me as well.

[ironstove]

Well, at this point I can't read anyone as town, and I give more cred to Joushi as being town throughout this game than IV.

I also took into account Transcend's point that IV could not blitz if he wanted to because PP wasn't on.

Also a possibility that Transcend is mafia, but I don't see a transcend/IV pair, also no way it's a joushi/IV pair, so it's prob IV/pp if IV flips mafia, otherwise I think it's Joushi + Transcend, but I think the PP/IV pair is more likely.

[ironstove]

Can we hammer this? You guys were both voting him so just vote and end le game plz if I'm wrong and you guys are mafia.

[ironstove]

UNVOTE: iv

why was it a risky move?

[ironstove]

Yea, that's fair then I'll wait before making my vote, but I'm pretty much decided on lynching one of the cc's today, it's either joushi or IV.

[ironstove]

so let me get this straight, you wanted IV lynched, I lynched IV and now you're saying my move is dumb? how interesting.

[ironstove]

IV why are you scum reading me?

[ironstove]

IV why are you scum reading me?

this

[ironstove]

IV why are you scum reading me?

this again

[ironstove]

IV why are you scum reading me?

quoting this one more time so you don't miss it

[ironstove]

LOL you think i'm butthurt

VOTE: Innocent Villager

the hurts are real.

[ironstove]

nice call transcend.

[ironstove]

I just got sick of this game tbh, transcend really killed it for me, glad this is over.

[ironstove]

I was pretty pissed that I missed ironstoves first IV vote. I was on 1 minute before he voted and then had an hour in the car where I couldn't do anything. Glad he voted again

yea i revoted iv because he said i was a butthurt scum, i just wanted him to realize he was wrong in his call, didn't care about losing at that point. transcend and IV both deserve the loss, esp transcend for being so tunnel vision.

I know what I needed to do this game to improve, hope the other two learned a lesson.

And very WP joushi, I only sus'd you near the end due to POE and how bad your claim was in comparison to IV.

[ironstove]

LOL you think i'm butthurt

VOTE: Innocent Villager

the hurts are real.

Why did you do this

Why do you make rash decisions like this

You need to calm your emotions or whatever next time, I'm serious

I know you're new, but please never do this again

It's ok, because I'm scum remember? Scum wins!

[ironstove]

Well, I was almost certain IV was town based on the fact that he was town reading the enomis slot for no reason, that pretty much explained it to me, however I play with transcend on EM and I wouldn't be able to deal with him raging at me if I didn't lynch IV and he was mafia, so I was happier with losing and having transcend being wrong, than losing and having transcend being right.

[ironstove]

The guy has pretty good reads on EM, so it's hilarious that he would tunnel a PR from D1 and cost the game.

[ironstove]

Um you're the one who got blitzed homes.

I'm just following your lead. You told me to sheep you!!! hahahahahahaha

[ironstove]

Did you not say you were 100% he was scum for the past 3 weeks? Damn............ Now this is my fault? LMFAO

[ironstove]

Let's be honest here, would you have lynched Joushi over IV today transcend? I really don't think so. and I wasn't in the mood to fucking argue about this for another 5 days to reiterate all of my cases on why IV is town versus joushi, so I gave you what you have been practically begging for, and now it seems like you're pretty unhappy with the result. I wonder why????

[ironstove]

Oh, I guess that wasn't your lynch parked on him in D3? LOL

[ironstove]

The thing that bothers me the most about this result is that it wasn't transcend who hammered, I'm almost certain he would have done it for you all had you given him the chance to prove himself.

[ironstove]

never listening to transcend again.

[ironstove]

I blame myself for not just manning up and taking accountability. I should have voted joushi and went afk. That would have been the play of the game, altho I'm pretty sure A. Joushi would not have been lynched and B. I probably would have been lynched LOL.

[ironstove]

soula started to wolf it up hard before she (i hope it wasn't strategically) replaced out. hark was scummy the whole time. penguin was scummy too. i just could not get off my iv tunnel. sfjsfsfjsdkfsjfks i just never fosed joushi at all.

It wasn't. And I'm sorry for quitting like that as mafia, but I didn't play this game to be personally attacked. Enefpe can go to hell. I think I'd enjoy a game that's faster and has more activity, less scrutiny of every little thing that someone does and more focus on reading playstyles; I don't have the patience to sit back and carefully do what Joushi did.

I think I'm too sensitive for this shit or I don't like the asshole factor. I don't know.

/mafiaisnotforme

tbh, if that interaction between you and enefpe made you rage quit, I'd agree that mafia just ain't for you.

I regret rage voting IV when joushi made the most scummy post on the planet that made me sus him since D2 782

1.1. Stove is town. Pretty confident here. Like, I don't think you could convince me to vote for him this game short of a scumclaim

[ironstove]

Transcend, you're pro as hell on EM and I'll continue to sheep you in games on that site but you've lost all of your cred to me when it comes to MS......

[ironstove]

I'm not sure why that would set off alarm bells for you honestly. If I was the only one who said that kind of thing I'd understand, but for the majority of the game that was a pretty popular opinion

It wasn't that you were town reading me, but because you were town reading me so hard to the point that you said you wouldn't lynch me that made me sus you. Also your D1 was a little scummy but it was strongly overshadowed by enefpe.

[ironstove]

Anyway Joushi, you were not on my radar until the last day. I honestly thought it was between IV and Transcend until you cc'd IV, then I had to revisit everything again and your counter claim in comparison to his wasn't quite as good.

Transcend tunneling IV from D1 had a very big impact on why I decided to vote IV, which I regret, but you did an excellent job, and I think barring the cc (If all PRs were dead), you would have won the game regardless even without me rage hammering on IV.