Newbie 1730 - To The North (Game Over)

[Joushi]

VOTE: Ironstove

What is dead may never die, and your name reminds me of the iron price.

nah but seriously,

VOTE: InnocentVillager

and

I'm new to this site, so this is my first game. I've played about a half-dozen or so games on other sites, though so I'm not completely newb.

I'll try my best to be helpful to the game

are both pretty small posts hours apart. YOU TRYNA SNEAK SOMETHIN' PAST US HUH?

Hello friends! Just a headsup, my sleep schedule + work schedule means I'll probably be posting at odd times, like 3-4am PST. I'll try and keep up with things on my phone, but since I prefer to make longer posts, I'm not likely to actually make them from my android.

[Joushi]

VOTE: Vote Ironstove

Oh hey this site has a vote tag? That's cool. Still though, where's the hello in post 1?

[Joushi]

Ayy so work is slow. Let's see if we can get a full post in!

I'm not sure how relevant it is, but I've started looking through some people's games history. Am I allowed to link these or no? I saw a discussion somewhere about referencing out of game stuff but I'm not sure where it is.

That in mind...

VOTE: Transcend

1. How long have you guys been playing mafia?

Well my old account is over 5 years old here, but it's also been like 5 years since I've last accessed it. I'm used to playing a lot of in-person, but there's a significant difference between playing in-person and forum mafia. The ability to directly quote people is crazy!

2. In a 7v2 setup like this, what do you feel is the best approach to finding the scum?

I've always specialized more heavily in games with lots of roles, I tend not to be as good in a game with a lot of vanilla roles, simply because it's harder (and often times less fun) for me to track threads in people's posts over the course of days than it is to track where people are pointing as to what they supposedly did last night. Other than my mother of course.

Keep track of how people think though, flip-flopping around can mean a lot of things depending on how they're doing it.

3. Is your playstyle more engaged in posting or do you like to sit back and follow activity of others to get your reads? Do you have a different style when you play mafia or town or is it the same?

When I get the time, I prefer to make longer posts simply because it's more interesting and I'd rather format them in ways that makes sense to me rather than do anything else, so often one or two larger posts a day with small bursts of small posts when a bunch of people happen to be on at the same time.

I feel like I try and play the same way, if anyone is familiar with the game The Resistance, I'll always vote no if I'm not on the mission regardless of my alignment. Personas persist between games, whether you want them to or not.

[Joushi]

1) When did you start looking at peoples' game histories (like before the game started, during the game, right after it started)? I'm guessing you're referring to the players in this game?

I started earlier today after the game started because I saw an interesting discussion in another ongoing game where people were mentioning (and linking) other games that they had played together and thought hey that's a pretty good idea. So far I've only had the time to look through Transcend's stuff, since 14 was one of the most neutral looking posts I've ever seen which struck me as odd.

2) What are you impressions from what you've seen from other people?

I'm assuming that threads that are in "endgame" are considered to be over here, so please let me know if I can't link them in the future! They all have the reveals done already so that means it's not ongoing to me.

Anyway the threads that were particularly interesting to me are this one and this one, both of which Transcend was a VT. The first one also contained Karnos but I haven't analyzed his posts as much yet because I haven't had the time and he's literally only made the first post so far.

In the other threads, most of his posts are fairly rapid-fire around 6am/6pm PST and rarely more than a few sentences long. There are a couple exceptions, often when there's been several pages of discussion missed, but there are also a number of posts that are a single word. They also tend to be fairly aggressive.

In this thread, 2 of his 4 posts show considerably more effort than I would have expected based on reading the others (9 and 23), one of them is one of the most neutral posts I've seen (14), and the other is just a tack on to a larger post which also kinda just repeats what IV said in his previous reads post 24. The timing of the posts is also a bit unusual, with only one being around the 6pm/am bracket that I was noticing as a trend in the other games.

To me, this is implying more effort than normal, which implies scum.

I'll be on sporadically over the next few hours, otherwise probably won't see me til tomorrow night.

[Joushi]

Yeah, no.

It's not enough for me to hammer someone, but it's more than enough to vote for them in RVS. I'm not sure what you mean with "actions tend to be NAI" because you're kinda claiming we can't make reads (not reliable reads, but reads at ALL). Appealing to WIFOM is... weird since it just means "hey if we assume everyone is playing perfectly it's just a 50/50" which relies on the flawed assumption that everyone is playing perfectly. I don't agree with that statement at all.

I understand what he means by this tho. I've noticed in experienced that OVERALL (not all the time) scum tend to be a bit more tryhard than town because of several reasons.

Your defense of me accusing you is... interesting. I'm not sure what to make of it honestly. I'm keeping my eye on you, based on what I've seen, you seem to be playing outside your MO.

Also thanks! My avi's a picture of my fluffball

[Joushi]

Town don't necessarily HAVE to be active but wanting to play the game is NAI. Activity really, REALLY shouldn't be used for tells for a couple reasons.
It is the easiest thing to fake in both directions.
And if you punish activity you basically destroy mafia as a game.

Ok I understand where our disagreement comes from. I'd keyed on in the word "actions" you used in in 29, as opposed to the word "activity". I don't want to punish people simply for being active, that's not fun and definitely this early in the game isn't worth lynching someone over whatsoever. However people's ACTIONS definitely are potential lynch reasons. People's ACTIVITY generally aren't. Though the fact that ENT and Rar haven't shown their faces at all is disappointing. It doesn't look like either of them have made any visible posts outside of the recruitment thread though.

Could we get a prod on these players?

---

It's also interesting to me that both @IC and @Transcend pegged Soula as town based off her only post 18, where as @Stove (who hasn't posted since Soula), @Skold, and @Karnos haven't really commented on it at all. It mostly reads as newb-town to me at best (and most likely), but I feel like newb-scum would also just be afraid of getting lynched D1 and I'm just getting a null read off of it. Care to explain your thought process at all?

[Joushi]

I think the afk are scum hoping we Lynch ourselves :3

Hey Stove, I understand you're new (and my strongest townread at the moment), and I'd like to ask a little more from your posts. A lack of content in this post isn't really helpful other than showing activity, and our greatest weapon is information. The more information we have available the easier it is to find scum.

There's a couple ways you could help us with your next post. You could start pressuring people by asking them questions, you could give us your current take on what many of the players involved have already said and whether you think they're town or scum, and you could answer some of the questions people have already asked. Some of the questions that would be helpful for us include:

1. Was there a reason behind the relatively unprompted VT claim?
2. What is your take on differing activity levels of players between games?
3. Do you think it's helpful for us to lynch today or not? Why or why not?
4. What is your opinion of Soula? Both Innocent Villager (who I accidentally referred to as IC instead of IV in my previous post) and Transcend seemed to assume that Soula is town with very little information, where I don't think we have enough information to make that judgement call off of her first and only post so far.

Knowledge is power! Ask questions, or pose questions for yourself and answer them!

[Joushi]

chill it with the walls please

Sorry, this style of play was ingrained in me to start, I'll try and reduce length.

---

@Stove, good job on the content with that post! I'm rather tired, so I'll see you all tomorrow. Hopefully we'll get our 2 missing members by then!

[Joushi]

First page in joushi and innocent are scumreads

Joushi heavy

Care to elaborate? You made fairly sweeping accusations in 54 without a lot of quotes, and specifically I really dislike

will probaby make a rebuttal to this post with a wall and ask me if im a newb (i may even be accused of being antitown for going after the ic).

because it just feels like saying what you're doing CAN'T be newbish or anti-town, even if it is. If/when someone does accuse you of that, you'll just go "hah, but it's not because I pointed it out first."

[Joushi]

Also yay thanks for joining us. Hopefully Mori will pop in soon as well!

Also @Transcend and @Innocent Villager, might've missed it, but I'm curious as to how you guys pegged @Soula as town? What did you see that I didn't in 18?

The reasoning behind not claiming VT early is because other players said it helps mafia find the actual PRs, but I made the case that even as a PR I would still claim VT, so it's a meaningless claim in the end. I don't think mafia should be the only ones lying to town, sometimes its in the interest of town to have a player tell a lie to try to apply pressure, set up a play, or fish for/validate another player's information, my 2 cents on this.

I'm also gonna be honest, this feels like an ex-post facto explanation.

---

My reads in order from scummiest to least scummy:
Transcend
EnT
Soula/Skold/Karnos (not enough to read imo), IV
Stove

Not included:
Mori due to nothing to go off of

[Joushi]

Care to elaborate? You made fairly sweeping accusations in 54 without a lot of quotes

Innocent's reaction to me scumreading him is to weirdly focus on the fact that i townread skold. Evasive, tactical behavior. This dude is scum.

Skold is very non constructive in his tone, seems genuineish, hence town.

Joushi and innocent seem to be having weird interactions also

sweeping accusations without a lot of quotes

[Joushi]

You seem to be under the delusion that i am the type of player who makes walls or inclined to address every little non issue that arises. I actuall have given quite a bit of information about my stances, my playstyle, and why i think the way you do. I dont think any "accusations" were made perse, just some pretty on point observations. If you look at your interactions with innocent, they do feel weird. This is my opinion. Im sorry that this flusters you? Its actually quite scummy to insinuate that i have given "no" reasoning.

How is anyone supposed to agree or disagree with what you say if you give basically no explanation for it? I'm not saying what you're doing is scummy, I'm saying it's bad play.

52 lists scumreads with no explanation. 53 is barely a post. 54 has some basic explanations, but there's hardly any good pressure put up there.

I agree, IV's response to the pressure is odd, but until 74 you just made unsubstantiated and incredibly general claims about everything.

Your play isn't scummy, it's just anti-town. I really hope you actually start putting actual effort into the posts you make or we're gonna lose.

[Joushi]

Also Mori where are you

Xalxe, do we have a deadline on this player? I guess technically this is 24 hours though...

[Joushi]

For the record, I really hate the complete lack of specifics in every post after 87 but it seems to me like that's just the playstyles I'm gonna have to deal with this game. :sigh:

The scum hunting I do see from him seems flawed, in the sort of way a scum would see the game.

could you expand on this? my reread of his posts are kinda showing me an overeager IC more than scum. What are you seeing I don't?

Will give you dog treat if you unvote me.

Scoooooby snacks? You're currently still my #1 scumread, though. I'm rather convinced that you and EnT can't both be scum together though, as 53 is just too dumb to actually do as scum, but you two are definitely 1st and 2nd on the list.

A lot of people are fos'ing IV, and there's no way I'm putting him at L-1 while he's V/LA.

VOTE: Enefpe

L-2, voting for tunneling on IV and fairly unsubstantiated claims in 54, and super minimal answers/dodging questions in 74 and 81

[Joushi]

also yay thanks for finally joining us Mori, we finally have a full game

[Joushi]

Most scumtells don't help us find scum

Single scumtells I agree don't help, but I'll attribute consistent scumtells to scum more often than not.

That looks forced.

@Stove, it feels like you're working hard to undermine the hard townread we have on you. With 102 in mind, 40, the 2nd part of 45, 59 (which I called out in 64), and 93 all seem weird and somewhat forced to me.

While the reasons most people have pegged you for town still stand, I'm becoming less convincs

[Joushi]

Damn phone...

*forced

102, 40, 45, 59, 64, 93 for the lazy

[Joushi]

Didn't even fix the word I meant to fix, jesus not sleeping is not helping.

*convinced

Probably won't post again until tomorrow btw, running a tournament today + 2 hours sleep = very tired Joushi

[Joushi]

@Joushi, also don't know why you think my town reading mori is scum. It's a meta read because scum usually don't get subbed out.

it's a significant leap to think that someone is hardcore lurking intentionally instead of just having never seen the message because they never came back to the site. it doesn't matter if they're scum or not if they never saw their role pm

[Joushi]

Okay, but that doesn't help you find scum. I'll promise you it doesn't. Scumtells don't mean much honestly, because town make just as many poor decisions as scum.

I disagree with that assessment. Even if they're not always indicative of scum, they're definitely worth pressuring. Especially on D1 when we just need content.

While you said D1 might as well be random in 72 but most of the rest of your posts don't seem like they're putting pressure to get content when you also just said you wanted 15 pages. Pressure gets content.

---

It's also worth noting that Karnos (who's voting IV atm) has almost no posts in this game, but has posted in other ongoing games. (pinned post implies this is allowed to me).

Could you (Karnos) answer IV's request?

[Joushi]

I can accept a small number of scum hunting posts if the player is just low activity overall, but when he is making half a dozen IC posts he obviously had time to potentially make a similiar number of scum hunting posts, and choose not to.

Hmm I guess that's fair, I hadn't really thought about that. We should still wait until Monday to put him at L-1 though imo

What's nai?

Non-Alignment Indicative

Also Karnos post above me feels very scummy. Idk if activity in another game is reason for suspicion I've seen town players do it.

Activity in other games isn't suspicious by itself, it's only suspicious if they have high activity in other games (especially concurrent ones) but low/no activity in this one.

If it came down to either being the popular vote, I'm willing to lynch either to get a high potential mafia.

I must be reading this wrong, because the grammar isn't making sense to me right now.

[Joushi]

VOTE: Mori

Actually, I changed my mind.

VOTE: karnos

Ugh both of these don't sit well with me. I understand the sentiment of wanting to lynch people with low activity for that alone, but neither of them are striking me as particularly scummy to me. Could @Stove give a little more context to the switch? I'll let Transcend push the other line

So do we still have 7 days left for Day 1? or is it going to end soon? Confused

Yes. I'm on my phone but if this is a long day, these newbie games are probably not what you're looking for. You could try getting into some theme games or other queues, I remember those as having higher activity levels

The higher the person is on the list the more likely I think they are to be town.

{ironstove}
{Skold, Joushi}
{Enefpe no Time}
{Mori, karnos}
{Soula}
{innocentvillager}

Thoughts?

At what point does the list transition from town to scum?
Do you think IV and Soula are a scumteam? If not, who are their most likely teammates?

Longish post coming in like an hour or so when I'm back at my pc

[Joushi]

Alright let's preface this by saying that the mod has more posts than 3 of our players. Karnos (who has at least responded to every time they're specifically prodded to my knowledge), Mori (replaced rar something) and Enefpe have a combined 14 posts. I understand players are playing multiple games, and that real life is (and should) take precedence over any games you play online, but this game will take forever and be less interesting without more activity. Thank you Xalxe for doing your best to prod those players who have not been active.

That said, Transcend is still topping my list of scumreads. My post 25 is still something I stand by, but the slow change in playstyle to something a lot closer to what we saw in previous threads does reduce how striking the difference is.

His ISO of then going after IV, who I read null before his V/LA and still stand by that read, over issues that seem small don't sit well with me. The argument in 67 is overall broad and I don't see how the "tone" of IV's posts are pointing towards scum. 89 and 90, while funny, also seem like random AtE to me. 112 and 121, while not necessarily scum-indicative are also very anti-town. "No more logic and pressure, I want deaths!" I don't agree with the read, and some of the posts make me believe it's more antagonistic than actual scum-hunting. While not bad by itself, the lack of affirmation of Karnos' 126 doesn't help.

My vote is also on Enefpe because he's my second scumread, and it's more likely we'll see Enefpe lynched today than Transcend (0 on Transcend with Stove's vote change and still 2 on Enefpe). Case can be found in 84.

Pedit: How does this qualify @Soula? I haven't had anything new to go off of on Enefpe because they've been gone and support for a Transcend lynch just disappeared. Stove seems very newb and very town overall, and I don't have strong reads on the other players, and IV only leans town imo because Transcend is pushing hard for a lynch and that would be one hell of a bus if it was one.

[Joushi]

At what point does the list transition from town to scum?
Do you think IV and Soula are a scumteam? If not, who are their most likely teammates?

@Joushi

Karnos and Mori are entirely null.

Everyone else I townread with varying degrees.

Everyone below those two I scumread.

Is that a yes to the second question?

[Joushi]

Readlists are a lazy way of contributing and that list is completely arbitrary.

This is hardly less lazy.

Goin to be camping the next few days.

Ugh...

Serious question: This is my first game on mafiascum so IDK what the normal is, are games always paced like this? This feels like a ridiculously slow game, but maybe for the rest of you it's just the more of the same?

This is pretty slow from what I can remember (5 years ago) and what I've seen in even other newbie games. I feel like we're getting really unlucky with this game in particular. I've been trying to get at least 2 decent posts in per day, but the apathy is slowly building, and nothing kills a game of mafia like apathy does.

[Joushi]

HOLY BALLS SO MUCH ACTIVITY

No, I read the mod list on page 1. It says "Mori *, rep. RAR4703" RAR4703 hasn't posted yet.

Mori actually replaced Rar for the record. Probably will be replaced again at this rate.

---

I'll respond to Stove more completely later on when I'm not at work, but couple things I've noticed in the past few pages:
-Attitude, like IV said, MS != EM. 215 was a great post, even if I disagree with some of the content.
-Nobody should ever want themselves to be lynched, besides the fact that it makes it harder for your team to win (1 player closer to losing regardless of side), you're also dead. Being dead is not as fun.
-I agree, I don't like Skold's playstyle. He's accusing people of being unproductive without necessarily being productive himself.
-Is Karnos/Skold your current scumteam? Remember, every scum has to have a partner
-Outing as PR on Day 1 is almost useless (depending on the role), as they'll just die at night anyway. There's a 2/9 chance of there being a doctor in this game, so they don't know they'll be protected

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

This is like... one of the most productive things Karnos has said all game and a sentiment I agree with. "Oh no, you've made me lynch a townie, darn"

That said, I have yet to see a case on me. I can't really defend myself without a clear case on me.

126 is the best I've seen.

All of this said, I think karnos needs some examination. I really don't like that he attacked Soula for putting me at L-1 trying to "ML" me. It looks almost as though he knows that I am town and that I am going to get ML'd, yet his vote remains on me. It doesn't sound like a town-motived player at all.

I've agreed with most of what you've said, but I disagree here. I think it sounded pretty townie to me, if a bit aggressive. Calling people out when all they do is give themselves outs is an important thing to do. You're more likely to try and leave yourselves outs as scum imo.

But yes, EM and MS are very different. I left EM a long long time ago because it's like in-person mafia minus all the actual in-person benefits. Silly comments like 212 might work there, but here you just come off as dick-ish and stubborn.

[Joushi]

Agreed.

Dearest IV,

young man

, I am releasing my bony fingers your neck. You have flopped around enough to prove you have a moderate amount of righteousness. You are free, for now.

His reaction to the wagon was a bit flaily but I think its a combination of being brainwashed by em theory and playing a newbie game with people who arent necessarily newbies.

vote: soula

IV should be watched

Holy. There are players who have playstyles I dislike, but I think yours takes the cake. Your vocabulary flops around a lot, as does your use of punctuation. You use weird metaphors, and why in the world is "young man" italicized? None of that has much to do with actual Mafia, more to do with how annoying, bizarre, and distasteful I find your writing style.

Everything in the last few pages is dumb and probably ought to be ignored. This is what happens when I don't bring sense to this nonsense. Nobody has anything in terms of evidence. Nobody is at all guaranteed to be any alignment except yourself. Stop spreading bad theory plz.

The notion of rationality and evidence from ms players always amused me. Perception will always be a shifting variable. Nobody is outright scumclaiming. Scumslips are rare. As long as people play to their win condition, any "evidence" someone offers is just going to be their own perspective. What matters is making people agree and see your perspective, your content doesnt matter so much (unfortunately this is just a facet of human nature!). Wall to wall interactions are especially low brow as far as the art of this game goes. If you are tunneling someone, you have nothing too gain by removing yourself from a position of superiority and bringing yourself down to the level of a pedant.

I personally believe intuition is nearly everything in this game! Intuition is just a deeper form of logic you cant really cognate consciously. Well, a few can. Some of the best players on MS are right-brained powehouses (say...faraday, fate), and know how the game works on a social level in a way that the left-brained players here (the majority imo) have a hard time conceiving. In many cases, there are much more subtle things going on than these players can imagine.

dat tangent

You've done this a couple of times now, where you try and put yourself in a position to just kind of pat the rest of us on the head and go "oh you're so naive", and it's driving the rest of us crazy. You're making weird appeals to some form of spirituality and pseudoscience, and it really doesn't help most of what you say.

"What matters is making people agree and see your perspective"
This is like the first thing you've said that I can give any credence to, and then you follow it up by just saying "oh it's ok that you will never understand, why can't everybody just be as smart as I am?" It's almost like you're trying to get us to disagree with everything you say via indirect insults. I'm doing my best to actually still read what you're posting, but you're actively going about telling people you're not going to provide evidence after making generalized statements.

Lastly, I particularly despise your appeal to WIFOM in this post. You previously mention that many players "flail" about, and yet "if everybody plays to their win condition" (plays perfectly), then nothing actually means anything ever. It's WIFOM. It's very rare for people to use this in a way that's pro-town, and this is no exception.

Overall your play is just so incredibly anti-town, on top of everything else I've said previously, that I just want to see you gone.
VOTE: Enefpe

Why is soula treating me like i abused him in a past life its weird af. I dont even want to address such an aggressive tonality. To say i havent been doing townie things and am some evil scum mastermind / evil evil man who believes in the power of intuition (apparently i cant be reasoned with, either) ergo im bad at mafia as well. So im scum and a terrible person, apparently.

my dudes i meditate my heart chakra is taking a beating here

I don't even want to address such a condescending tonality, yet I have to.

Not related to the quote above, but aren't you supposed to be V/LA? Camping even? Why is it that are you suddenly orders of magnitude more active in the period where you're not even supposedly going to be regularly posting?

[Joushi]

IMO, if we can't decide on a solid lynch, I think we should vote the lurky players so we can at least get a flip and hopefully figure out if there's a scum PR or not. Although, my slot looks to have been the least active, so maybe I shouldn't be pushing that lmao

IV is conspicuously absent from this post. Could you give us your thoughts there?

[Joushi]

Fiddler - liking this dude, well reasoned.

I bet he's a libra.

- town

Are you kidding me? Jesus christ.

Leaves me with skold, my read has changed on him, i see him running a lot of interference and being genuinely subversive.

I actually agree with this, as much as I hate to say it. He hasn't really posted much constructive content since 115, otherwise just going out of his way to tell everybody that they're John Snow and know nothing.

I have been less than impressed with IV since his grilling and he seems to have

dropped off the map a little bit since some of the pressure on him died down.

His response to transcend is very much coming from the mentality of feigned anger and like trying to point a finger at transcend's play.

How does this come off as scummy to you? The case has been like half of all content in the past several days, when the activity there dies down, activity would fall in general.

Also that condescending overtone is used by scum alot "ohhhh nice case bub, you finally did SOMETHING right" lots of tonal shifts from iv this game. Im fairly confident in my reads atm.

You are hardly one that gets to talk about condescending tones. If condescending tones was the only thing we were reading off of, you'd have been lynched already.

demands will get you nowhere...sweet kisses on the other hand...

can you like get this iv lynch happening already

(transcend and i are cheating em scumbuddies fyi, hence the buddying)

I aint got the energy for it

Just... what?
Bolded: That's one explanation for it, sure.

Dearest oni-stove-chan

Why?

I dont see how you could see anyone as null at this stage.

Easy, colloquialisms here generally tend to show that null roughly also means neutral or undecided.

Unrelated, why do you see me as scummy? Aside from say, bein a weirdo

63, 80, 84, it's not aimed at you but 145 mostly applies to you as well, and 276

You're still dodging the questions by scoffing, quoting pseudoscience, making condescending posts, and generally not actually being helpful.

Can you guys just trust me on this iv lynch. Please pretty please. Maybe if i say please enough someone might change their mind. Also holy shit wifom alert but if he is scum im practically confirmed town. Actually, following my lynches is probably a good idea because im a decisive character (plus my reads are pretty on point huehue)

umm if i ever alluded to you being scum im really sorry so so sorry uhh yea lets just get this nasty evil iv lynched so that we may become one together

Holy shit, WIFOM alert, automatically puts you on my lynch list, if you weren't there already.

Following your lynches is a good idea because you're decisive? That's demagoguery, not good reasons to follow you.

VOTE: Enefpe

[Joushi]

Im a pr fuck off

Unvote now

Joushi its like you dont understand subtlety or what it means to be tongue and cheek, youre so bizarre are all ms players this weird. You literally need me to explain a very obvious joke...its like lol??

Your play doesn't actually make any sense to me, and frankly, I don't believe the claim. You're not even at L-1 yet, and we've already been over this conversation with Stove about claiming this early.

The first prod, sure I can accept that you didn't see the thread had become active. The second prod after being a PR, and then the huge burst in activity while you're supposedly V/LA makes no sense to me. You do know what the V/LA is used for right? It's supposed to be when you won't have access to this site.

You also responded to a single point, which was the least damning of all of them. You even said earlier that it's important to get people to agree with you, and then it seems to me that you're arguing you're exempt from that because of your "subtlety". This isn't a tarot reading, this is a debate forum. Say what you mean or we will drill you for it. And at this point, I'm hoping for a hammer as well.

That's not good enough. A PR claim that goes no further leaves mafia a papertrail to justify a fakeclaim later. Full claim it.
Theory bit here - Docs and BPs should claim doc/bp because it WIFOMs mafia.

actually fuck that what am I thinking. don't full claim.

Not quite sure what to make of this either. Is it trying to give your partner advice? Is it legit theory discussion? Is it pressure on Enefpe?

[Joushi]

Holy moly welcome Harkonnen! Just need fiddler to be around a bit more. I just want to play Mafia, haven't played the game in several years now

But holy shit have things changed, sorry I'm on my way to work and probably won't be able to post before like 10pm PST. While at it I'll be gone most of 9/14 but should otherwise be pretty active over the next few days

[Joushi]

I'm excited I get to play with a burst of activity and my top scumread actually has someone voting for them again

That said, I didn't notice this before you posted Hark, but I'm surprised Stove (who said "EnT isn't cop") just kind of accepted the pr claim. What changed Stove?

[Joushi]

And i was at l1

Ok you're right I miscounted here.

Iv lynch isnt happening rn i guess. Its weird that soulas replacement hasnt commented on the fact that i made her rq. Maybe that slot is scum.

I've seen a lot more town RQ than scum. Many town just want to have fun and if you take that away from them, what reason do they have to stay?

Also i have to deal with the spergelord mod telling me not to make sexist jokes(as if suddenly ive crossed the line)i mean talk about the internet thought police im guessing he is with her

Im having a hard time believing joushi is that stupid unless he is rain man.

Ooops, missed quoting the spectrum comment. As someone else said, the harassment, condescension, and general unpleasantness really isn't appreciated around here.

A lot of the time i get bogged down by reading into subtleties too much. Its good with em because you have less data so yoi need to abstract as much as possible in a small time frame, but with ms its more simple, you have to keep reminding yourself "the majority of people are town" the subtle plays less of a role.

Joushi its like you dont understand subtlety

At this point, the only way I'm not voting for you is if there's a strong wagon on one of my other scumreads.

@Xalxe, just a heads up the last vote count was incorrect, Stove unvoted Enefpe in 316

[Joushi]

He claimed PR, why would I lynch him? I don't think he's cop, but he could be a different PR. Unless someone CC's him? TBH, I kind of want him to hard claim because I still think enefpe is acting very scummy.

What is there to counterclaim? "Oh you're not PR, actually I'M PR". Not only is that dangerous to claim since it shows scum easy targets, but most setups include 2 PRs (depending on whether or not you consider BP a PR)

I'm not dismissing Hark as hard town or even slight town. Moving him into null pool because I feel his fos on me was justified and it wasn't solid so he wanted to debate it with me.

He still had a few weird posts.

I don't quite understand what is actually being said here. I think you're saying "I'm not reacting to the point where I think Hark is town, just don't think he's scum anymore". Is that correct?

Oy vey

Thank you for your contribution.

[Joushi]

It's a tasty little piece of cheese. Any scum want to hammer and collect it?

I'll trade town!Enefpe for a scum. It's a perfectly fair deal.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

I also spent a little more time reading over Karnos' relatively low number of posts, and the first didn't really strike a chord with me until rereading the second one. This looks a lot to me like what Karnos was accusing Soula of doing in reverse.

"Only scum will hammer this, so anyone who is town now cannot hammer the lynch without getting lynched the next day."

It makes me think that Enefpe + Karnos team is a very real possibility.

[Joushi]

Massive wall detailing a stronger Enefpe/Karnos scumteam

Spoiler:

Already dealt with my thoughts with 336, 339, and 186 in my last post

Besides that, I find his scum case towards Enefpe to be a bit weak, but this has already been addressed by others.

Incredibly soft defense, doesn't want to seem too close to Enefpe. Honestly, as early in the game as it was, IV's case on Enefpe seemed pretty good. Even Skold, who Enefpe randomly decided to townread, was sufficiently weirded out by it.

You know, I wouldn't even be sad if Enefpe was quick hammered. Refusing to get an avatar and just general douchebag posting style is almost deserving of a policy lynch. Almost.

But he might just be scum, so it's not a policy lynch.

You are going to look real bad for this comment when Enefpe flips red.

Comparing these two posts (which are back to back), it's an odd switch of tone from "idk he might be scum, I don't like the way he plays" to a decently hard accusation with the assertion that Enefpe is scum.

299 is Enefpe's first comment on Karnos at all, and it's fairly dismissive. Doesn't bring attention to Karnos at all. He proceeds to not mention Karnos whatsoever until we get to 347, where he says...

vote: karnos

Bargain priced lynch right here

and...

Just vote for what is outright scummy. Idk who to vote honestly. Karnos just seems easy.

With no further explanation.

253, 254, 255, 294, 359, 386 all strike me as pretty standard distancing posts. Lots of "interaction" with little to no actual content.

Pedit: Not quite as long as I thought it would be, just lots of post links I guess.

[Joushi]

pretty sure he's town this time though.

Is this a reference to a different game? Could we get a link?

[Joushi]

Both?

[Joushi]

Compare joushis tone from when started the game to what it is now. Starting out it was like "gee wiz im just a silly newb xd wooooeos rainbows" now its like hes a jaded private eye with an alcohol addiction who beats his wife

Ima be honest and blame this mostly on you. This game has been less and less fun for me every time I've read your posts, and I'm about to add to the expressed reasons why.

Look at trans pulling back and catching himself

Dat higher level of awareness

vote: karnos

Im sick and tired of you noobs regurgitating the meme that im acting scummy. im really not and never have. alot of what you think is scummy is not; youre like a group of paleolithic primates who come across an outsider primate and start throwing rocks at him because he is not apart of the group. QUIT BULLYING ME REEEE

Your attempts at humor, if that's what you call them, are not funny, they're obnoxious since damn near every time they're a mixture of insults, condescesion, and random use of memes.

Alternatively, if you think I am scum partners with Enefpe, please vote him and help me bus!

In my "why in the world did i wake up this early" brain, I can see how much confirmation bias is in my last post. I'm gonna go back to sleep and then try and reevaluate some things in this game.

Until then though,

VOTE: Enefpe

Also yeah I agree @Xalxe, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is. @Stove confirm/deny?

[Joushi]

Uh did he get hammered

Pretty sure he's only at L-2 actually... Just me + Karnos as of 447 plus Skold only makes 3. Also links to the games or no?

Joushi is just an autist that keeps hate re-voting me

Alright now THAT one I'm actually going to report as being a personal attack after a long string of questionable comments.

We are in setup c. Watch them hammer me asap

So you claim Doctor or Tracker? That doesn't mean we are in setup C. There is no way for you to know in which setup we are in.

What could you know that we don't to know what setup we're in? The only way you could possibly know that is knowing at least 2 PRs in the game, which the only way you could be positive of more than one at this point would be out-of-game communication.

Which reminds me: Skold, why did you not announce that you are putting him at L-1?

I don't announce that anymore. For bait related reasons.

I really really dislike this. Even though Enefpe isn't/wasn't even at L-1 when you posted this, it's an incredibly risky strategy at best. People who are less careful could easily accidentally hammer (Fiddler as an example who could miss something due to having so much to catch up on)

@Everyone else Me or Hark. Vote one of these or we no lynch at this rate.
pedit: Well then you're stupid. I have no certainty you are scum and anyone who thinks they have 100% found scum on D1 is lying or deluded. Given the state of mafia atm probably deluded.

I really really dislike this as well. Not only the incredible black/white situation that you're setting up, but it's on a weird target. Why Hark over IV? Over Enefpe? Over Transcend? The argument you make against Hark seems somewhat spiteful and the argument you're making regarding Enefpe seems a little contrived. If the two of you were really our only options I'd definitely end up voting you.

Prod fiddler plz

He was.

[Joushi]

I don't like you either, I just dislike Skold more.

[Joushi]

Alright friends, been 8 hours since my last post and there's 28 hours to deadline and I won't be here for at least the last 4. Really hope we see some activity tomorrow

[Joushi]

Welcome Penguins! I wonder why Hark chose to replace out, too many games at once?

Question is was innocentvillager scum desperate enough to see a lynch go through that he hammered, or was he just town hoping for a scum flip?

Question 2 is, who was scum on the wagon?

fiddlercrabontheroof

(5): ironstove, Harkonnen97, Transcend,

Skold

, innocentvillager

Do you think it's likely there was no scum on the wagon at all? Meaning both scum are among {karnos, Joushi, Enefpe no Time}?

I think the potential town cred of not being on the wagon is pretty much zero, while the gain to scum of getting an extra townie killed is rather significant, so my personal thinking is that scum were either already on the wagon or waiting and ready to hammer at the last minute.

Not being on the wagon I agree doesn't mean much, since the votes all happened fairly quickly after each other. That said, looking at who wasn't on the wagon leads me to believe that we had a 1/1 split. Enefpe really hasn't done anything to make him look more town to me, and the fact that he wasn't NK'd is pretty surprising to me. Number one scumread in my book. My earlier post on the Enefpe/Karnos scumteam looks all kinds of confbias to me now so I doubt his partner would be you.

Enefpe/Stove? Doubt it
Enefpe/Hark? Maybe
Enefpe/Transcend? Likely
Enefpe/IV? Maybe

I feel scum would have ironstove or enefpe lol

Yea the skold kill doesn't make sense. I would think someone like the PR claim (enefpe) or the person who is being town read by other players (arguably me) would be the best target.

Not sure how you guys are town reading me, because in other games I sign, I always get lynched LOL. Dumb town telling? IDK. With that said, my win rate on EM is abysmal as mafia, it's like <20%

I feel like both of you are overlooking a pretty obvious explanation, Enefpe wouldn't kill himself. You're also always asking why we're townreading you and it's starting to seem a little weird. Pretty sure I said this before, but for my hardest townread, it's like you're trying to get us to scumread you.

[Joushi]

I mean a lot of things are POSSIBLE. I've already made my opinion on appeals to WIFOM known though, it generally hurts town because it assumes perfect play and just makes everything a coinflip when it really isn't

[Joushi]

Should probably put this out there

VOTE: Enefpe

[Joushi]

Because, if he was telling the truth, it would help scum know exactly - or at least narrow it down to two - what setup we're in. That helps scum, but doesn't help town. If he's caught fake-claiming, the it outs a true PR which will almost certainly be NK'd.

This just feels like extremely weak, almost forced reasoning. In what situation would scum knowing what setup they are in help them? I'm looking over the 3x3 matrix of roles and enefpe basically declared he was either doctor or tracker when he said that we're in the 'column C' setup.

What short of telling mafia whether he is doctor or tracker makes it a big difference? That they know the other PR is either bulletproof, tracker, or cop? Still not buying this reasoning as a good enough excuse to let him get away with the way he has played, so I am not relenting on pressure until he responds.

Knowing which setup we're in helps us a lot. Is there a roleblocker? Could cop safely claim without getting NKd? Does tracker have protection for their actions? Town also has drastically different winrates as well according to the wiki

Row 1: 56.0% (50 games)
Row 2: 56.8% (44 games)
Row 3: 41.3% (46 games)
Col A: 40.5% (37 games)
Col B: 51.1% (45 games)
Col C: 45.2% (42 games)

Unfortunately, he hasn't really helped us figure out what set up we're in. At best, he's told us that we're in one of 3 setups, and he could have just told scum exactly what setup we're in. It's really anti-town, especially because if he wasn't lying he has a huge target on his back now with no knowledge of whether he could even be protected or not.

I'll find quotes for the rest of my case against him in my next post when I have more time

[Joushi]

308 has most of the relevant links but 315 has some content too

426 and 451 have some content/rebuttals as well

Overall I'd say like an 8? If anyone is ever 100% confident about anyone else's alignment, they're cop or lying

[Joushi]

There's a link to it in 2, there's a link to it here. The discussions which had more analysis of the setup can be found here and here

[Joushi]

Enefpe's claim to be PR was really weird in terms of a couple of things.

The tone was really off, and that's saying something considering how all over the place his tone has been throughout the game.

He has clearly stated multiple times a lack of respect for MS players, and probably would believe that such a simple ploy would work. It seems like it did in all honesty, so on that count it looks like he might've been right. He clearly feels he doesn't need to substantiate a claim if people will just believe it at face value.

Spoiler: Lack of respect quotes

His reaction to the wagon was a bit flaily but I think its a combination of being brainwashed by em theory and playing a newbie game with people who arent necessarily newbies.

The notion of rationality and evidence from ms players always amused me.

Some of the best players on MS are right-brained powehouses (say...faraday, fate), and know how the game works on a social level in a way that the left-brained players here (the majority imo) have a hard time conceiving. In many cases, there are much more subtle things going on than these players can imagine.

You know what, since most people on ms seem to be on the spectrum, im going to refrain from making jokes. Especially em related ones

Also is he actually V/LA again? He seemingly used it initially when he was MOST active...

[Joushi]

How sure are you that IV is scum? Like self vote next day if you're wrong sure?

[Joushi]

I kinda feel like we're all waiting with bated breath to see what Enefpe says if/when they come back

[Joushi]

Ok let's try a different tact. I'm really not convinced IV is scum, but if he is, he needs to have a scumbuddy. Who do you think is that person?

[Joushi]

Spoiler: IV reads post 542

My guess is we're in one of the setups with a roleblocker for mafia and scum blocked entsc action

Why? He hasn't even posted D2 yet, so what are you basing this on?

Actually I noticed some MAJOR flaw in Enefpe's previous claims and postings. If he doesn't come on and clarify shortly we should just lynch him.

I want to see this.

I just don't see scum motivation for Enefpe to lie.

Maybe someone out there wants to catch Enefpe in a bad claim to test if he's really the right PR; idk, I don't think it's worth it. Let him wifom the way through. I don't think scum knows nor needs to know Enefpe's claim.

Enefpe and ironstove are definitely my top two townreads rn. Penguin/Joushi also feel pretty town too.

Which would suggest karnos/Transcend, but that doesn't feel right either.

[Joushi]

I just can't in good conscience just blind follow a vote like that when my reads are so different.

leaning a bit towards the soula/hark/penguin slot

like i don't see joushi karnos or stove as scum at all

enefpe is a pr, he's probably going to get subbed out and we'll have more helpful inofrmation.

Let's go back here though. What has that slot done? Which player made you think the slot is scum?

Then how does their play tie to IV's play that makes you think they're buddies?

[Joushi]

Spoiler:

I really don't know what to say to that

[Joushi]

Well, while I'm on and it looks like Stove's on, what are your thoughts on Enefpe, Transcend, Penguin, and I guess me for completion's sake. You don't want to lynch IV (at least without good reason)

[Joushi]

Joushi, when you are making those number URL posts, are you adding the links in manually by typing the number and copying the link to the post or is there a faster way to do this?

I'll use a lot of them in a moment as I finish my next post but the last tag is

Code: Select all

[post]1[/post]

will come out as 1

[Joushi]

God I couldn't imagine manually doing all that

[Joushi]

Also since I'm on, not tired, and kinda bored since Overwatch competitive is down, gonna see if I can find some useful information in Skold's ISO. This will be a long post.

Most of what I'm getting seem to be that we don't and can't know anything at all on D1. Curious what he would be like on D2.

Spoiler: You Know Nothing John Snow

29, 34, 72! 79! 101! 258, 415, 475

Wow that's some pretty serious repetition

Skold also seemed to put the most pressure on the following people yesterday, in order.

Hark (Penguin)
Enefpe
Transcend

Spoiler: Hark/Penguin

A lot of the pressure against Hark comes towards the end of the day when the two begin antagonizing each other. 464 leads into 467 where the vote comes. Fighting continues into 476 before finally voting for Fiddler and hopping on that errant wagon.

Normally 469 would imply to me that Hark and Skold are opposite alignments, but all of Skold's "we can't know who we're lynching, might as well be random D1" combined with 487 where he justifies his tunnel as it's the only other lynch he sees as "realistic" D1 which honestly assuages most of my fears here.

Spoiler: Enefpe

Starting in 65, Skold's vote on Enefpe lasted for 8 days before switching to Transcend in 387.
Started initially due to Enefpe's TR on Skold, and justifies it in 79 initially as "a gutread which stands head and shoulders above the rest of the bad vibes." Continues in 115 without significant justification.

Real justification shows up once again in 260 and 266, as some of the contradictory things that Enefpe says in 248. Not sure if it's relevant but 272 is at least entertaining

313 314 416 452 all come off as a little weird, especially contrasting 415 with 465

I'll leave the reaction tests and baits to you people, at least for this game.

I don't announce that anymore. For bait related reasons.

Spoiler: Transcend

First vote here starts in 387 for "stupidity" and "anti-town"-ness (really ringing a bell for me right now). Switches back to Enefpe in 452. Honestly not much to look into here imo

Some minor pressure on some of the weird things Stove said in 104

People Skold put minimal/no pressure on and did not vote for beyond telling us we can't know anything: Me, Karnos, IV

Assuming scum killed the people who were targeting them most, as they often do, I'm thinking that Enefpe and Hark-turned-Penguin are our two biggest suspects today. I don't think it would be surprising to people if I don't change my vote?

[Joushi]

Exciting activity levels guys. It's easy for scum to hide in a lack of activity "it's not lurking if everybody is doing it!"

Alright so just saying, Enefpe's replacement is gonna have to make a monumental defense to dig themselves out of the hole their predecessor left them. Honestly the disappearance over night as mafia is a strat that's pretty common on a different site I've played on. "It doesn't matter if I was there for the win as long as the slot wins"

At the same time, how does Skold's death implicate Karnos? Who is Karnos' supposed partner?

[Joushi]

The only person (people?) who could corroborate or deny his story also would be other PRs. As scum it's a good way to get them to claim/softclaim, especially in a newbie game. Easy way to paint targets

[Joushi]

Hey wow Enomis this is weird. That's the exact same tag a friend of mine uses, but you are very obviously not that person. Is it a reference to something? Because they just used random letters until they liked the way it sounded

Actual game related stuff now:

I really disagree with the way you are presenting your cases as though they all have equal probabilities. With such a vested interest in the outcome, an objective perspective is an ideal at best.

Firstly, he looked frustrated when he says something like "i am fucking pr, fuck off". I don't think newb scum would do this.

Whatever else you think about him, it's pretty clear he isn't new. This might be the first time he's played on this site perhaps, but not new.

Spoiler: Case 1: He is vanilla Town

Maybe the whole thing was a reaction testing farce? Maybe he became so frustrated that the person he thinks is so mafia isn't gonna be lynched/nobody supporting him so he decided to soft fake-claim to try to push his vote through. There are a lot of possibilities on this.

Alright after reading this in conjunction with the others, the tone of this implies that you are 100% not VT. The tone is so speculative relative to the others and the idea behind it fairly weak that in this game this case is completely thrown out.

Spoiler: Case 2:He is PR

According to him, we are in setup C. But there is no way of determining whether we are in setup C or not. Thus i think the most likely conclusion is that he misunderstood the table. Objectively, when looking at the table, i think the easiest way it is misunderstood is that there are only 3 Setup and not 9 in total. So in this case, he is either doctor or tracker and thought we were in setup C.

Only six setups btw. Assuming he is actually PR this argument makes sense to me. That said, he is clearly not new. Stove's questions and theory about the setup definitely show new thought processes. I don't know experienced players who just go in to a set up so blindly (closed set ups notwithstanding)

Spoiler: Case 3: He is scum

So, since he said we are in setup C, this means that he thinks that there are only 3 Setup. A,B or C. He knows whether there is a roleblocker or not. So him claiming Setup C means he knows that there is no role blocker. If not, it would be pretty to dumb claim Setup-C and get counter-claimed immediately by a 1-shot bulletproof townie for example.

As scum, claiming a setup isn't actually that risky, because if you're not actually PR it requires not just one, but two counterclaims (unless there's a JK). If I was Cop or BP, I'm not going to show scum where I am by telling a supposed town member he's wrong about the setup because the only way I could know that would be being a PR. My identity as PR is not worth correcting him. In turn that means that the only way he would be meaningfully counterclaimed as scum is if BOTH PRs are dumb enough to show scum who they are. Sure you might get lynched, but your partner now knows both people to NK.

I am not hard-claiming until i am at L1 and someone intent to hammer.

You heard him boys!

If Enefpe was actually VT he's an idiot. I'm not gonna directly insult him but he at least understands theory.

Spoiler: Case 2:

I am PR and i have not made any significant check that i think will give town additional info. I also did not , jail keep , save anyone or shot by anyone who were significant last night since two town were killed.

You're keeping options open as scum and playing to your outs. As long as you don't claim you can't claim wrong and get countered, and as long as you aren't countered the people who believe you at face value will never vote for you.

[Joushi]

So you are claiming enfp knew that there was 6 setup but pretended that there was only 3 setup?

What? No. I'm saying that the only way your argument makes sense is to assume he is new when he obviously isn't.

Your whole argument of what I wrote being shit is because you think he is pretending to know only 3 setup.

No YOU made the argument that he thinks/thought there are only 3 setups, I'm saying that that argument is bogus.

Also tell me, how does me claiming help town besides me keeping my 'fake claim' option open.

I'm not sure I understand the last half of that sentence, but right now people can either choose to believe the claim or not because it is impossible to verify and very difficult to disprove without outing other PRs. I don't believe the claim because the only way we can even begin to disprove it is if both of the real PRs are dumb and paint themselves as targets.

[Joushi]

Huh interesting coincidence about the names then! Good to know. Don't worry about if I don't understand the argument at first, I will always ask questions to make sure I understand the nuances

No I do not think he was the kind of person who would assume there are only 3 setups.

Naturally, the assumption you're trying to portray (oh of course I know I'm town) discludes the possibility of scum motivations, which I've already discussed elsewhere. The VT case I feel was already handled in such a way that it precludes the possibility of you actually being VT. I don't believe the PR claim, ergo, you must be scum.

The only reasons for a VT to claim PR so loosely like that are so dumb that I have a hard time believing anyone would do so.

As to where to focus, things I would recommend looking at are:
1: Skold's interactions with people (as he was NKd)
2: Enefpe's interactions since they will probably be really relevant D2
3: InnocentVillager's interactions with people as he seems to be the second most pressured person though I would argue for inane reasons

[Joushi]

Now do you guys see why EnT is town

Fuck off of Enomis plz

What? His arguments are weak at best

[Joushi]

What is +/- EV? I'm only used to hearing that term in relation to Pokemon Effort Values but I really doubt that's the case here

The biggest problems I have with the claim are as follows:
A. I seriously doubt that a player who has as much experience as he does would misunderstand the setup in that way. I mean, the first sentence in the setup description is "Each Newbie Game will be given a setup that incorporates either one row or one column." That's pretty clear
B. He didn't say "my role is found in Setup C", he said "we are in Setup C". That's a degree of certainty you don't often see from town
C. After claiming PR, he is still alive and there was in fact a NK N1, so it wasn't because he was protected, it's because he wasn't targeted

Given A and B, there has to be a reason for him to make the claim in the way he did, which I believe has already been sufficiently explained. If it was truly a misunderstanding I would be more inclined to believe the arguments you make, but that's not an assumption I think is a valid one to make

[Joushi]

Somewhat related, but I'm fairly confident that IV and Enefpe are opposite alignments. I'm confident that IV is town, Enefpe is opposite, ergo Enefpe is scum

[Joushi]

I don't have time for a full post right now but that last question cracks me up.

"Are you scum?" I mean, if it works hey good job. There's really only one right answer there though

[Joushi]

tone, genuine noob statements etc.

TBH Stove, pretty much everyone is townreading you for these reasons. Every time you say something that could be scummy you follow it up with just a very newbish statement.

[Joushi]

I am doctor. Happy now?
My predecessor send no action night 1.

Enefpe sent NO ACTION? That claim is almost so ridiculous to lie about that I kind of believe it from that alone...

Now to make the best of this situation, I think tracker should come out. But if you are cop you should not come out.

Actually no, there's no use in tracker coming out.
Can the people other than transcend tell me why they are on the iv wagon?

I don't like this immediate double back, we saw Skold do it D1 and I don't think it's necessarily scummy, but I really don't like the playstyle that accompanied it


I promised myself that I wouldn't trust the claim when it came because it would just be floundering to try and himself, but the way it was done just makes me question it so hard.

If I am doctor, I would want to pretend like I am tracker so the mafia will dodge me and kill someone else.

Like the claim in relation to this is really weirding me out but I think I really need to rethink this game.

UNVOTE:

[Joushi]

Yeah that's what I was thinking, as scum saying the previous player did NOTHING is so unbelievable that you'd make something up instead of saying it

[Joushi]

Joushi: there's is no cc, so I am prolly the doc??

What's there to think about so much

If I accept the premise that you're not scum (which is seeming much more likely now that everyone has posted since the claim and there's no CC) it means I've probably been wrong about this game's entire dynamics and I'll need to re-evaluate pretty much everything else.

Like, I almost want to lynch you to protect the worldview I'd previous developed[/joke]

[Joushi]

Karnos has actually not posted since the claim, and in 681 stated he wants to lynch IV and Enomis. I would like to see that CC/lack of CC before I devote the time to completely rethink everything I've thought thus far

[Joushi]

Wait Stove I thought Transcend was your number one scumread? Why are you now supporting him? Unless you think he's bussing?

[Joushi]

So things I'm still sticking to:

1.1. Stove is town. Pretty confident here. Like, I don't think you could convince me to vote for him this game short of a scumclaim
1.2. Getting Enomis to claim was ultimately beneficial to town, as it gives the village a near guarantee that one conftown between Enomis and Stove will make it into D3, regardless of what happens today or tonight
1.3. IV is town lean, his reactions to the claim seem really genuine to me and I'm honestly more inclined to trust his reads because of it
1.4. Transcend is scum lean
1.5. I REALLY dislike the way Enefpe plays Mafia. Like I don't think you understand how much more fun this game is for me without him

Things I'm not sure about anymore
2.1. 439 looks all sorts of confbias to me now, but I worry that after 520 I went too far and confbiased Karnos as town in the other direction. Right now it's a net scum lean
2.2. Soula seemed town to me, Hark seemed weirdly aggressive and kinda scummy to me overall, but I also like the way that Penguin is scumhunting, net town lean

Confident town: Enomis/Stove
Leaning town: IV/Penguin
Leaning scum: Transcend/Karnos who are scumteam by PoE

Mostly by PoE, and I think IV/Penguin is much more likely to be town than a scumteam:
VOTE: Karnos

[Joushi]

Alright so after whatever it is that Transcend did yesterday with that quickhammer (and my apologies for not mentioning L-1, I was pushing 24 hours without sleeping while seeing a friend off and it slipped my mind), I think it's prudent that I respond to some of Karnos' accusations.

And boy must I say there was a lot of misrepresentation going on, although since he flipped town I must assume were honest mistakes.

Spoiler: Response to 784

My first post 11 could be a chainsaw defense, I guess, if you disregard the attempt at humor.

To answer the question presented in 784 though, why would I defend him so strenuously if he isn't my scum buddy? Well it mostly comes down to who was pushing his lynch. Throughout most of the game, my number two scumread (Transcend) has been pushing IV's lynch, and throughout D1, when I was very confident in scum!enefpe, enefpe was voting for IV (starting in 54) for a full week, changing in 248 where it felt like giving up, before jumping right back on the wagon in 299.

When my two biggest scumreads are pushing a lynch, that person suddenly looks VERY towny. That thought process carried me through up to the point when Enomis claimed doctor, at which point IV went from "almost assuredly town" to "probably town" based on the interactions and as Stove has pointed out, seemingly uncharacteristic posts during that period.

Almost all of the arguments made against IV in the meantime have been resting on assumptions of tells that I either don't see or don't agree with, and I called them out as I saw them. Bad scumhunting is bad.

Transcend is, was, and likely will continue to be pushing IV's lynch and has since become my #1 scumread. If it's a bus, it's a masterful bus and well played sir.

That should cover 784, on to 785!

Spoiler: Response to 785

Either I didn't explain myself throughout D1/early D2 clear enough, it got swept away in confirmation bias, or it was an intentional misrepresentation after being put at L-1. I'm leaning towards the first one honestly.

There was like, a day, where I thought Enefpe/Karnos was a sensible scumteam, but when looking back on 439 reminds me too much of the bad scumhunting I pointed out earlier and rescinded it because it was bad scumhunting. When the pendulum swung back, I thought it swung too far because I had started to look at Karnos as if he could do no wrong, which was almost as bad as before. I'd rather remain suspicious of town than completely overlook scum.

The next few paragraphs are complete misunderstandings of the reasons I changed my vote on Karnos. At that time, I was thinking "eh Karnos miiiiiiiiiight be scum maybe" but I was still thinking Enefpe/Enomis and Transcend was the scumteam. When I discover that "omg Enomis is like almost definitely not scum" the pairing I thought clearly couldn't be accurate. Karnos was my #3 at the time, and when my #1 suddenly becomes conf-town, #3 becomes #2.

You (Karnos) changing your opinion on Enomis, as well as pushing to get Enomis to claim, are hardly why my opinion changed (and tbh it did not change that much, just the rest of the environment changed). Stove pushed for the reveal, I pushed for the reveal, Karnos pushed for the reveal, and even Transcend pushed for the reveal (which in hindsight I probably should have taken into more account). And, whoa, Stove unvoted, I unvoted, and you (Karnos) unvoted. Crazy that this then has nothing to do with why I voted for you is it?

Ultimately, like I said, it has so much more to do with the fact that my #1 dropped out of the scum-race and you as #3 jumped up to #2

Cool, that's done, let's see where we're at now.

There's only 5 of us left. Stove, near-conf-town from like page 1. Transcend, my #1 or #2 scumread since the first few pages. IV who has been near the top of my town list for forever due to the enemies he has made in the town. Penguin, who, like Karnos, jumps to my #2 because I don't think Stove or IV are more likely to be scum than Harkonnen. And me.

I'm still going to stick my guns and say that my vote currently rests with Transcend until something happens that makes me change my opinion. Do remember though we are now in LyLo so be careful and don't do what I did (put someone at L-1 unless you're SURE)
VOTE: Transcend

[Joushi]

UNVOTE:

[Joushi]

Sorry it's been a long time since I've played forum and didn't even think about that... I'm at work but it'll probably be slow so I'll pop in more when I can

[Joushi]

Yeah... no, I'm tracker

NV Enefpe/Enomis N1
NV Transcend N2

I think I'm allowed to vote now
VOTE: InnocentVillager

[Joushi]

Ok I'm at work still and don't have time for long posts but why would you even track me N1?

Also while it isn't likely to be made up on the spot, that kind of shit isn't hard to fake if you want to

[Joushi]

I wanted to out him because I got a NV on someone WHO COULD ONLY BE THE DOCTOR IF THEY WEREN'T LYING

what kind of doctor do you get a NV on?

[Joushi]

Alright alright alright, not closed but we're mostly empty now and boy like 2 pages have passed. Wall incoming.

Okay with regards to the setup C thing, why do you think I yelled at everyone to not make enomis claim??? Maybe because I knew EnT was obvtown, and he was claiming doctor! I didn't want to fucking out the doctor! Joushi on the other hand, made this obv fucking town doctor claim! I mean like what the fuck? How are you not seeing this?

Or... because you knew he was town and wanted to deny the rest of us information. To everybody else, he was at best probably-pr, and after my unexplained NV I would probably never have left that wagon. The town was quite divided, and while you may argue it is bad play it doesn't change the fact that Karnos, Transcend, and Stove were all pushing alongside me. Karnos already flipped town, and I think only you think that Stove is scum. You can't say that pushing the reveal is therefore indicative of scum, and the opposite is just as true.

Joushi did you crumb? Lol, I didn't think so.

I literally learned what crumbing was TODAY. As I said at the beginning of the thread, I haven't played mafia in FIVE YEARS. How the hell am I supposed to crumb if I don't even know what it is?

ALSO PLEASE ASK FOR A SPEED NIGHT. I DONT WANT TO WAIT FOREVER FOR SCUM TO KILL THE FUCKING TRACKER.

You can do this? I always thought scum was just taking as much time as they could to discuss things...

A real tracker will generally not just track their top scumread if both scum are alive, since the scummier person will generally not submit the kill.

Hey welcome to newbie games! Why do you think I'm playing in this queue when I have played before? Because I'm rusty as hell and didn't think that far ahead!

Note that the only reason Joushi was tunneling Enefpe D1 was because he didn't like his attitude. Yeah, sure, I didn't either, he was total fucking dick that had no respect for the mod or for the game. But does that mean he's scum? Absolutely not! Newbtown would realize this.

There is no pause in D1 for why he kept hardtunneing Enefpe other than stuff like general unhelpfulness, rudeness, etc., which clearly aren't scumtells. The fact that he didn't even question this makes Joushi either a horribad town player or newbscum that is looking for a reason to have a consistent read.

Enefpe was incredibly dismissive D1 without actually showing any evidence to the contrary of ANYTHING AT ALL EVER. In my experience that has generally been because they are hiding things. At the same time, you know who I didn't have any scumreads on throughout D1? Just about anybody except Transcend, who I am now fairly confident is town unless he has the most well done bus I've ever seen.

I do this a lot when I think someone is scum/town. I townread one, then scumread the other, then they cc each other. Naturally, I should just vote the scumread and be done right? He was scummy all game! Right, no, especially if the scumread was the one who told someone else to unvote me.

Unless I need townpoints before I make a false claim!

Then, what trumps your previous "read" on people, is what they've actually done as their role. Looking at all aspects of how they would have played as scum or said PR (2 angles per person) would be essential to understanding the true game that each player has been playing.

Bold added

Yeah I admit I went too hard.

Honestly, I just found out about a really upsetting RL event so I am kind of channeling my anger into this game, hence why I am more agitated than usual (also, I would've been heated anyway after being almost wagoned by a scum!cc and a probably townie). I apologize if I crossed in line in the past few pages.

The player in me hates it, but the person in me is fine with it. You're good on that front, hope things resolve there alright

I honestly thought that he thought you were maybe softing PR and didn't expect me to be the actual tracker here, especially after he hard townread me at the beginning of D3 lol, hence the quick vote on you.

It seemed too rehearsed. The day starts, and, boom, there's the vote on you.

I had you pegged for VT for forever in this game and had no reason to change my reasoning until you claimed tracker. Most of my first post of the day was prewritten in a response to Karnos since I expected it would be the first thing peopled started talking about. Everything else, I'm not in multiple games so every time I checked to see if the night was over I thought about the game. When the day started, hey look, the doctor died as expected! Whoa... I just put in writing what I'd be thinking for the last several days, seems rehearsed!

Spoiler: Things Transcend Already Said For Me

TRANSCEND HOW FUCKING BAD ARE YOU

I COULD'VE HAD YOU AUTOLYNCHED RIGHT NOW

I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU ARE THIS BAD

i don't read previous games

penguin hasn't responded to this thread before but he was online. stove was also online iirc.

neither of them have posted in the thread.

they might not be aware that the day even started.

okay iv: you have a solid point, but unfortunately it does not 100% clear you because if you have a scum partner they didn't post in the thread when you were both online simultaneously to quickblitz.

like i said, if you voted me when you were online (i didn't see pp or ironstove online at the same time) it would've been an obvious blitz attempt.

Spoiler: Miscellaneous

I wanted to out him because I got a NV on someone WHO COULD ONLY BE THE DOCTOR IF THEY WEREN'T LYING

what kind of doctor

should

you

expect to

get a NV on?

Please respond to this. (slight edits made in bold)

however, joushi: you do have to realize that you are sorta mechanically confirmed mafia to me.

but like my gut is telling me no.

I actually don't understand what you mean by this. Mechanically confirmed?

I explained why I tracked you n1.

I must have missed it. Link?

That's why I was on edge about Joushi N1 so I submitted the Joushi track pretty late into the night with the added plus that Joushi would have submitted the kill unless his partner was townier perceived than him. That's why he was an optimal track N1: I had some private reservations about Joushi, and he was relatively townread that an NV would make him-scum MUCH less likely. I didn't actually consider an ironstove/Joushi scumteam, I thought that was kind of ludicrous. But hindsight/confbias I guess, makes anything seem more obvious.

I really don't understand why my claim makes you suspect Stove

FUCK I DON'T WANT TO FORMAT ALL OF THIS FUCKING DEAL WITH IT

[Joushi]

Could you clarify what you mean by mechanically confirmed?

[Joushi]

I mean, assuming you're town and not bussing the hell out of IV, you said yourself that if he voted without his partner online would be like an obvious blitz

Neither of the other two have popped in at all and I wouldn't stick my head out in that situation without knowing my partner is active either so like sure I guess

[Joushi]

I'm not sure tbh, I haven't been so wrong about a game like ever before so I'm not sure what to think

[Joushi]

I was on the Karnos wagon, but I mostly voted there because I didn't think I could lead a wagon on you properly and compromised

I didn't vote for Fiddler

Enefpe/Enomis was doctor when I was so convinced otherwise for so long

IV is scum when he was my like my second townread behind Stove

I'm loathe to think I'm wrong on you being scum but I think I must be

[Joushi]

If IV was mafia, why did he not blitz Transcend (Assuming he is town) when Joushi (Assuming he is town) parked his lynch on Transcend?

We already went over this, and there's several reasons why he wouldn't do so. Let's go over them again here.
1. His partner was not online/not paying attention, therefore a blitz was impossible
2. Transcend is his scum buddy, so unless scum want to blitz themselves, that's not going to happen
3. He needs town cred in order to back up his upcoming tracker claim

The only way for a blitz to have happened in the hour and a half that my vote was up was if IV, Transcend, and I were all in perfect agreement as to who to vote

I understand the time difference between the posts was about 1 hour, but it's interesting that day starts @ ~1 PM, Joushi makes his post and Transcend immediately follows up asking Joushi to remove the posts like within 15 min, but he follows up with a post:

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Day 3 started at 3:49 pm PST, my post was 4:02 pm PST, and Transcend's post was at 4:19 pm PST. There hasn't even been hour between Xalxe's post and Transcend's post, let alone between Transcend's and mine

Fucking hell Xalxe i stayed up all night to make sure to tell no one to vote and you start the day late.

If you stayed up all night to tell everyone to not vote, I mean, you had 6 hours to do so, but you conveniently popped up immediately after Joushi.

See above, I'm guessing you're looking at timestamps when you look at the thread not logged in (which is 2 hours off for me) and comparing them to the time you see when you log in (whatever your time zone is). There was quite simply not that much time between the events you describe, and if that's the basis of your reasoning I'd really hate to lose the game because of it

Anyway, if that's the case then I think IV is town, if IV is town, then Joushi is scum. If Joushi is scum, this confirms for me that Transcend is town.

So like... what you said before is just factually false.

[Joushi]

I suck at end game, I wish mafia had just killed me N1 lol

VOTE: innocent villager

If IV flips mafia, please kill me as well.

Wait what

[Joushi]

Ok just like... as a player... I am really REALLY confused now. Didn't you just make a case that I was scum? Why are you then voting for the guy who CC'd me?

[Joushi]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Joushi]

Can we also talk about how Joushis post was right at the beginning of day like 13 min after Xalxe opened the thread? For such a long post and explanation on Transcend scum, he obvious prepped it overnight.

Now this isn't that scummy if he's VT, but he's Tracker, which doesn't get their result until the end of the night. Why would you prewrite a case on someone if you don't even know what Tracker result you're going to get yet? This can't make sense from a town PR perspective.

Alright now that's a misrep. The response to Karnos was already prewritten, literally all that needed to be written is the argument at the end. And, let's be real, if you're going to argue that I don't think about the only game I'm in at the time I'd be a little insulted

[Joushi]

On top of that, regardless of the result, I was going to be voting like that anyway, and that should really come as no surprise

Either I get irrefutable evidence I'm right, or I get circumstantial evidence that he MIGHT not be mafia. He's not cleared in the slightest

My positions on who was scum before D3 started should have been pretty clear, I don't know why the idea that it looks ready-to-go is causing you so much anguish

[Joushi]

Yea, that's fair then I'll wait before making my vote, but I'm pretty much decided on lynching one of the cc's today, it's either joushi or IV.

Well I mean yeah

so let me get this straight, you wanted IV lynched, I lynched IV and now you're saying my move is dumb? how interesting.

Your arguments look like they're condemning me and then you're voting the opposite, this is really really weird to me. Could it be some kind of bussing?

Alright now it's my turn to sleep, please don't do anything too rash while I'm gone

[Joushi]

GG everyone! Was fun and while I hate to take the game in that manner, we take those

I can't believe I fucking tracked both scum in the wrong order. How fucked up is that??

I laughed really hard when you posted your action list haha

Joushi did really well for a newbie, there was nothing in particular I could really catch him on. I still think there were wayyyyyy too many reasons to believe I was real tracker, but Joushi's fakeclaim was plausible from many angles and for a cc in general, let alone a newbie cc, that's pretty difficult. Props to the scumteam.

Thanks. If anybody cares to see the previous games I've played on this site they are Newbie 1076 and Open 288 as Kagetora so I'm not COMPLETELY new, just rusty as hell and looking to get back into things.

huh, interesting pt.

Another thing I should've pointed out that came as scummy but I forgot to is how Joushi literally COPIED my notation for the tracking results ("nv on ___ n1, nv on ____ n2"). The actual wording is pretty different, i.e. "X didn't visited anybody last night". The fact that he copied my exact format suggested subconsciously that he was copying all of me, i.e. my claim.

Haha I was trying to make the post seem rushed/written without careful reading of the rest of the posts since my own. I was at work, but it was actually pretty dead and I was pretty up to date on the thread the whole time last night

Penguin making the kill N1 was definitely weird, I would have insisted for Joushi to do it

Nah. You were pretty obvscum from my viewpoint so I knew I was going to have a lot to come back from. Rather risk me being seen than confirming Joushi. Worked out.

@IV: We actually had the opposite reasoning there, literally nobody was scumreading me except for Enefpe who I didn't think anybody would listen to so I felt that if for whatever reasons I was tracked in the night and confirmed scum, the game was over. Better to risk one player than the whole game. When we both went back to being reasonably town-read, we did go with the person who was more town-read. While maybe not the best strategy, it worked this time

Transcend I think I a couple more days without an IS vote I think I would've convinced you lol

I was actually pretty impressed you got him to unvote at all. I only CC'd you because of how confident I was that Transcend would vote for you

Also, I thought transcend was playing like he was because he was a cop or tracker.

Same, I consider myself pretty good at determining who PRs are because like people have said they tend to look scummy because they have something to hide. I was actually really blindsided by the VT -> IV tracker claims but we'd already developed a plausible story/plan for what would happen if anybody claimed tracker. The only person I wouldn't have CC'd was Stove

Also for the record, I actually didn't know what crumbing was until yesterday, Karnos case against me scared the shit out of me because of how on point it was, the game was wayyy more fun when Enefpe disappeared but I definitely chose to overreact to his playstyle instead of ignoring it,

[Joushi]

Also while I'm pretty happy with how I played most of the game, let me know what kind of things I need to work on if can think of them!

[Joushi]

I'm not sure why that would set off alarm bells for you honestly. If I was the only one who said that kind of thing I'd understand, but for the majority of the game that was a pretty popular opinion

[Joushi]

^ get ready to be cranked if you're in a game with this guy ^

Aww you make me blush, looks like we'll probably be in ChilledTea's Normal Game together unless this queue pops first (I try to only do one game at a time)

[Joushi]

oh shit

igmeoy already

Haha pretty sure a good chunk of the players in that game were also in this one so I wouldn't be surprised if I was D1'd

[Joushi]

Hey @Xalxe, is there a dead thread we could look through for this game or no? I'm curious what those players were thinking as the game was ongoing

[Joushi]

Skold in particular tbh, since the only reason we really killed him was to keep the discussion going in the same way it was and Skold would throw a huge wrench in things D2