Newbie 1730 - To The North (Game Over)

[Soula]

Hello Hello. I'm in Hawaii, so I might be posting at odd hours; just fyi and all that.

So the game started and someone is already close to being lynched on page 1? sheesh.

Friendly reminder: Ironstove is two votes from being lynched. Be careful.

Really guys, it just started. What good reason is there to lynch Ironstove at this point? Karnos and Skold seem kind of suspicious voting off the bat like that, unless there's something about this that I'm not getting. That said, Karnos accusing someone of being scum without them even posting is really weird. Either they aren't thinking before they post or they are scum and made a little slip at the beginning. hmmm. I'll be paying attention to them.

I'll start with some questions! Feel free to answer if you'd like to get the game rolling:

1. How long have you guys been playing mafia?

I played one on another forum, not really knowing what this was about. I did pretty bad, but found it interesting. Thought I would play here because they got really personal and angry over the game. Some people quit because they didn't like the atmosphere. I don't blame them. This should be a fun game, even if we're trying to find out who is lying. I hope it doesn't devolve into people feeling like they are being threatened or something, lol.

2. In a 7v2 setup like this, what do you feel is the best approach to finding the scum?

Honestly, I try to trust my intuition and look at the voting patterns. I'll try to understand a player from their perspective and see if everything they have been doing adds up to their modus operandi or if there are some strange inconsistencies. Some players are naturally inconsistent and some act scummy naturally. So someone who is consistently inconsistent is acting normally in my opinion. But that said, I prefer to get a feel for each player before going after people. But if that fails, I'll easily switch from popular targets to innocuous ones, since I know mafia will being trying to get town to go after each other, while also looking like a low-key helpful town. Well that's what I imagine anyway; I know that won't always be the case either. Just what I've seen in some games and the one I played.

3. Is your playstyle more engaged in posting or do you like to sit back and follow activity of others to get your reads? Do you have a different style when you play mafia or town or is it the same?

I need to get a feel for each player. I need to hear how they reason themselves when questioned and see how other people feel about them. I prefer not lynch until last minute, since that gives a lot more posts to work with and makes it easier for mafia to slip-up and leave some kind of trail in my opinion.

[Soula]

You should be paying attention to everyone.

Well of course. But some people stand out more than others. One thing I noticed from the one game I played is that one mafia player changed their style early on because they weren't used to the idea of being scum. I'm not sure if you are scum, but I'm going to keep you in mind depending on how you play and what happens. Maybe you are scum and maybe you aren't, but that might be a tell. I'll have to see how you play out...

As the game goes, the first few pages of a thread are usually dominated by "RVS", Random Voting Stuff. Typically nobody will ever have a super strong real scum read at this point, nonetheless it's an important part of the game. If you don't participate, then it stifles discussion and doesn't give as much stuff to read from to make more serious votes later in the game.

That said, there is sort of an oxymoron in the meta, as some players will scream loud and clear that you should NEVER vote someone unless you think they are scum. Taken to the extreme, that sort of thinking would seem to indicate that RVS is a bad idea, and you shouldn't participate in it, yet without going past the RVS stage there is very little to read anyone on.

That said, my personal perspective is that voting someone, whether town or scum, is a good thing early in the game, because you can get a wide range of reactions depending on how much pressure they feel. In some cases I'll even vote someone I *think* is town, because I want to confirm my thoughts. Perhaps ironically, voting for pressure doesn't provide any benefit at all if you admit you are actually just voting for pressure, so even in those cases I'm not going to limply vote and say something to undermine my attempt at creating pressure.

...hmm, all right, fair enough. I guess I just would prefer people had more reason to vote someone instead of just flat out voting them. I don't believe we need to vote people to get them talking at the start, but it's whatever I guess; doesn't matter as long as they talk and we don't prematurely vote.

ironstove is solid town, if he's mafia a big fat loss is something I endure this game.

Trying to pocket a new player already?

With that said: Don't claim your role unless you're at L-1 (1 vote away from being lynched). Especially if the vote is in RVS. None of the 3 votes on you were legitimate votes and now scum have a better idea on who the PR's (power roles i.e. non vanilla townies) are.

Scum read. A vote is still a vote and waiting to claim 1 before hammer is risky. Pushing town players to wait until 1 from hammer is scum because on the off chance that mafia haven't voted yet and can hammer in a lynch, they will and can blame the town players for starting the train and optimally get another mislynch set up.

Also, claiming VT is nowhere near as bad as claiming a PR. If I was a PR, I would still claim VT. If I was a VT, I would claim a PR in some situations to in order to bait a shot from scum. I very well can still be a PR or VT, so claiming VT is meaningless and is equivalent to stating that I'm simply 'not scum'.

I think I agree with this. If you're a PR and you think you might get targeted and lynched quickly, it's better not to wait.

Disagree on claiming a PR role though. That just adds confusion to Town and the other PR. If you claim PR and you aren't one, the real PR Town will think you're suspicious, unless they have a way to verify if you are Town or not. And since the setup is random there's no way to guarantee a setup where you can promise they will check you and make sure you're Town first. It seems like it could very easily end up in lynching you if the real Town PR claims and presumes you mafia because you claimed. So not sure why you would say that; can you explain why that's a good idea to confuse Town like that?

But anyway, how the heck is claiming VT a meaningful gesture? VT stands for Vanilla Town, yes? If so, then why the heck wouldn't anyone claim to be Town? Just seems silly to say that. Like...it doesn't mean anything really.

[Soula]

chill it with the walls please

a wall every once in a while is fine, but walling in every single post is going to make some players (me) not want to read you.

try condensing your posts

I like this guy

I like you too

I have a gut feeling that 1/2 or 2/2 of the players here are scum. I can see someone as a scum player writing this post sarcastically.

I don't know. I'm not seeing it. I agree with the wall of text thing. It's better if people are to the point and condense what they want to say. I don't want to have to sit here and decipher what appears to be in another language.

There's no chance that I'm town that correctly town reads you?

You sound nervous and you're deflecting the questions by implying I'm mafia for asking them... 100% scum.

This does seem a little scummy. I don't know how anyone can be sure about anyone at this point. We're only on day 1 and there's very little to go on, except random voting and people nit-picking little things that may indicate scum or could mean nothing. So this stands out to me.

Skold is pretty town.

VOTE: Enefpe no Time

Ehh, I don't see how that really indicates anything. But it is weird that Enefpe gives no reasoning for any claims made. Like he/she is trying to stir the pot or something and then just vanishes. Weird.

VOTE: Enefpe no Time

[Soula]

The way i do* above post was directed at joushi, last sentence @ soula

+

First page in joushi and innocent are scumreads

Joushi heavy

And you never explained why Joushi was a heavy read. So Yes you supplied no reasons (unless I misunderstood something) and you're really scummy right now because of it. My highest read. It's already the beginning of the game and you seem to be floundering. Care to at least explain why Joushi was a heavy read? Or did you think you'd just throw that in there and we'd all just go with it and find our own reasons? I mean dang, if you are Town, you have an

obligation

to convince us. Otherwise, what you're doing here is incredibly scummy imo.

[Soula]

Umm, so I need to post, but I'm not sure what to say. Transcend is being weirdly aggressive on IV and Enefpe hasn't returned. If it came down to either being the popular vote, I'm willing to lynch either to get a high potential mafia. But other than that, I'd probably vote Karnos because he/she hasn't commented on much and just argues that everyone should be focused on scum-hunting. I could see mafia-Karnos wanting to push people to go after each other and sit back like that; plus the opening vote Karnos made seemed kind of aggressive and serious for a random vote to get the game going...Mori is also suspicious because he/she hasn't participated really. Would rather eliminate someone like that to get rid of the huge unknown factor, even if they are Town.

But I'm just going to say it because it seems true more times than not from what I've seen. Unless you know a player to see if they are acting off, D1 lynching is unlikely to get a mafia. Town do all sorts of things that seem scummy. It's frustrating, but it's just how the game is. IMO, because it's hard to get mafia on D1, the best lynch for D1 is the one that gives Town the most information to work with regarding all the players.

[Soula]

Also, I'm not seeing how Ironstove and IV are scummy. Can someone explain to me why they are being aggressively targeted at this stage of the game?

[Soula]

If it came down to either being the popular vote, I'm willing to lynch either to get a high potential mafia.

I must be reading this wrong, because the grammar isn't making sense to me right now.

ohh, yeah I guess it is. I'm just saying I'm willing to vote them to get a lynch.

[Soula]

I think mori or karnos are good lynches for D1, I'm fine with lynching mori. Him and karnos are null reads but they've both been useless so far in the game and I'd rather remove the nulls beforehand in order to progress the game.

VOTE: mori

seconded. I think I'd rather vote Karnos though. But I can go for Mori, at least until Mori decides to participate.

UNVOTE: Enefpe
VOTE: Mori

[Soula]

I think mori or karnos are good lynches for D1, I'm fine with lynching mori. Him and karnos are null reads but they've both been useless so far in the game and I'd rather remove the nulls beforehand in order to progress the game.

VOTE: mori

seconded. I think I'd rather vote Karnos though. But I can go for Mori, at least until Mori decides to participate.

UNVOTE: Enefpe
VOTE: Mori

Ick this vote was smelly

whatever. I'm getting bored and almost got mod replaced because of it; I just want to progress the game. This is a LONG Day. There's not much to go on and at least getting rid of Mori eliminates any possibility of lurking as mafia. It's really convenient to not even participate in day 1 as mafia. Everyone just ignores them and then they pop up mafia later.

And that's rich coming from you, one of the scummiest players this round. Can you be any more random in your accusations?

[Soula]

So do we still have 7 days left for Day 1? or is it going to end soon? Confused

With 8/9 confirmations, Day 1 begins!

Deadline is 14 days from this post, or (expired on 2016-08-14 09:17:39).

[Soula]

If you think I'm scummy, then vote me. There's been momentum on me. Why have you pursued shit-lynches like Mori whom you don't even fos over me who you do fos?

Ridiculous. Pretty much all of the scum tells have been laughable up to this point. People just keep harping on little things and seeing what they want. I voted Enefpe because she/he made accusations and then wouldn't back them up, which I could easily see a newbie mafia doing without realizing how obvious that makes them. That's a lot more reasonable then going after people because you interpreted their posts as scummy. I voted Mori because I don't like the unknown factor. I followed a game where some players were more or less absent the whole game or subbed out only to turn mafia at the end. That totally ruins the game. If wanting to avoid that makes me look scummy, then I've pretty much lost interest in this game. And feel free to vote me.

And honestly, I don't think you're scum at this point. Scum-reading me over one little thing is a little annoying, but your play-style has been too overt and prickly for mafia. You're making yourself a target and that doesn't really make sense to me. It would just make the game a lot harder for you to do that. It doesn't add up. But if you are doing that and manage to pull it off, I'll be impressed.

No, I'm sticking to Mori for now because I want them to post and join the game; otherwise I want them gone for the huge annoying unknown factor. If that makes me scummy, so be it.

[Soula]

VOTE: Mori

Actually, I changed my mind.

VOTE: karnos

Ugh both of these don't sit well with me. I understand the sentiment of wanting to lynch people with low activity for that alone, but neither of them are striking me as particularly scummy to me. Could @Stove give a little more context to the switch? I'll let Transcend push the other line

Seriously? You can't even understand why those two have a high scum read?

Funny how Transcend puts you top on suspected Town and suddenly you're like his buddy and the more reasonable scum votes don't "sit well" with you. Is it that one of them is your scum buddy and that doesn't sit well with you? Hmmm...you've been playing really kind of hands off on scum-hunting, appearing innocuous and all that. Yeah, so you got any real reads or is it just posturing with you?

[Soula]

Pedit: How does this qualify @Soula? I haven't had anything new to go off of on Enefpe because they've been gone and support for a Transcend lynch just disappeared. Stove seems very newb and very town overall, and I don't have strong reads on the other players, and IV only leans town imo because Transcend is pushing hard for a lynch and that would be one hell of a bus if it was one.

Fair enough; thanks for providing some kind of reasoning behind your reads. I just don't understand why a mafia-Transcend would be so keen on making themselves a target; the game I played in before, I tunneled someone like that in the second round and they were Town, so I'm hesitant, but I don't know.

Since we have 7 days and it's only first round, I'll be back in a few days to hopefully see more posts with Karnos, Mori, and Enefpe and have something to actually work with.

[Soula]

Oh gee, I come back and wow, what do I see,

Enefpe decides not to participate.
Karnos still criticizing other people for making claims, while not claiming anything of his own.
Transcend still pushing IV, who is pretty much vacant at this point, yet criticizes me for doing the same. :eyeroll:

innocentvillager hardclaimed scum ccan you guys stop pursuing these shitlynches and lynch him already lol

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

[Soula]

^ Amended

VOTE: InnocentVillager

[Soula]

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

How is it a scum flag if I believe Transcend is scum? I mean he's targeting IV as HIGH SCUM when I barely get anything negative from IV, except that IV is trying to be a helpful town. I mean, jeez. I'd like to nail Transcend as mafia in round 2 and honestly it doesn't do me any good to do this as mafia anyway. I'll just guarantee that I get killed if Transcend flips green.

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

Um

Why is your vote on me then

There is no continuity in this post

VOTE: karnos

I just don't see a lynch happening on Transcend this round. And I'm pretty sure he's mafia at this point. I figured it would be worth it to lose you in round 1; you haven't even really been that active until now either, so it didn't seem like a big loss at the time.

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

Um

Why is your vote on me then

There is no continuity in this post

It's a scum read based on Soula having inside knowledge that you will flip town. Of course if you actually flip scum, then that will show the read for just being a red herring as many reads are.

It wouldn't make sense to switch votes now, it's a conditional read on Soula based on your flip- which we haven't seen yet.

Yeah, it figures you'd say that. You and Transcend are most likely mafia. Enefpe was more of a safe bet when I couldn't be sure.
I'm done with this nonsense.

VOTE: Karnos

[Soula]

Alright, got a chance to thoroughly read without having to defend myself first. So Post 187 wasn't directed at me. But my response is still valid.

[Soula]

Eh, Fine. If it's going to come to that. But once I flip green, don't forget about Karnos and Transcend. Even if I suck so bad to get outed in the first round, I'm happy if it helps get a mafia.

[Soula]

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

How is it a scum flag if I believe Transcend is scum? I mean he's targeting IV as HIGH SCUM when I barely get anything negative from IV, except that IV is trying to be a helpful town. I mean, jeez. I'd like to nail Transcend as mafia in round 2 and honestly it doesn't do me any good to do this as mafia anyway. I'll just guarantee that I get killed if Transcend flips green.

You think Transcend is scum, so you decide to vote with him? WTF kind of logic is that? Why are you helping scum lynch someone?

If you want to see it that way, fine. It looks bad. But if it gets a mafia in round 2, it helps Town's chances overall. Plus, I could be wrong about IV. If IV is mafia we get mafia round 1, if not, I can slam Transcend round 2 and get him. And I get that someone flipping Town doesn't mean all that much in itself, but he's so scummy at this point, I just can't ignore it.

I'm getting scummy vibes from enefpe, you, and Transcend, but one of you can't be mafia. Enefpe and Transcend both want IV's blood, so even though this looks scummy, I'm unvoting for now.
UNVOTE: Karnos

Everything in the last few pages is dumb and probably ought to be ignored. This is what happens when I don't bring sense to this nonsense. Nobody has anything in terms of evidence. Nobody is at all guaranteed to be any alignment except yourself. Stop spreading bad theory plz.

The notion of rationality and evidence from ms players always amused me. Perception will always be a shifting variable. Nobody is outright scumclaiming. Scumslips are rare. As long as people play to their win condition, any "evidence" someone offers is just going to be their own perspective. What matters is making people agree and see your perspective, your content doesnt matter so much (unfortunately this is just a facet of human nature!). Wall to wall interactions are especially low brow as far as the art of this game goes. If you are tunneling someone, you have nothing too gain by removing yourself from a position of superiority and bringing yourself down to the level of a pedant.

I personally believe intuition is nearly everything in this game! Intuition is just a deeper form of logic you cant really cognate consciously. Well, a few can. Some of the best players on MS are right-brained powehouses (say...faraday, fate), and know how the game works on a social level in a way that the left-brained players here (the majority imo) have a hard time conceiving. In many cases, there are much more subtle things going on than these players can imagine.

dat tangent

LOL. So basically you don't think you have to justify yourself and can fall back on claiming intuition as long as you can get people to agree with your perceptions.

WOW

JUST WOW. I should have trusted my read on you from the beginning, instead of thinking I could be smart about this.

Can we just lynch this obvious mafia now please?

VOTE: Enefpe

[Soula]

LOL. So basically you don't think you have to justify yourself and can fall back on claiming intuition as long as you can get people to agree with your perceptions.

WOW

JUST WOW. I should have trusted my read on you from the beginning, instead of thinking I could be smart about this.

Can we just lynch this obvious mafia now please?

VOTE: Enefpe

Just. Fucking. Think about it. Why couldn't town say these things? Why couldn't silly people say silly things or even smart people get trapped into an illogical loop. I don't especially care who we lynch today because it honestly could not matter less.

No, not even. Enefpe refuses to even engage on a level that meets other players eye-to-eye. But claims there's some "social" aspect that he gets and the rest of us don't. That doesn't sound very social to me. Then there's this huge reliance on intuition reading IV HIGH Scum (and let's not forget Joushi as well) and not backing it up with some kind of argument. He's just going to sit there, not really participating, letting Town eat itself. Enefpe has already had a chance to explain his reads, but just refuses. That's not really someone being silly; they are keeping their options open so they can say what they want and go after who they want without having their behavior scrutinized. How can you trust a player like this? Even better question, what good is it for a Town Enefpe to play like this?

(since a lot of times, they're wrong!)

PS IV: This is why scumtells are stupid, irrational and useless and you should join me in the ''lets make some fucking sense and try to figure this shit out'' club.

Well yeah of course. It's round 1 and you're not likely to make sense of the game until at least round 2. But sitting around expecting everything to be laid out in front of you or thinking you are going to make sense of everything sounds pretty scummy, like you want to avoid scum-hunting and setting yourself up for scrutiny. I'm surprised no one has gone after you for not scum-hunting. Maybe there's been too much other stuff going on. But you got any thoughts about the interactions going on here? Or you just want to not participate?

[Soula]

Alright genius. So IV, who has been pretty much absent and only made some meta-posts about the game, you read as hard scum? OH REALLY. Fine, I'll play your game. But if he flips green, you got some explaining to do.

Here is a read for you. The above is a huge scum flag, setup so you can miss lynch IV without being blamed for the lynch and turn it into a miss lynch on Transcend the following day.

How is it a scum flag if I believe Transcend is scum? I mean he's targeting IV as HIGH SCUM when I barely get anything negative from IV, except that IV is trying to be a helpful town. I mean, jeez. I'd like to nail Transcend as mafia in round 2 and honestly it doesn't do me any good to do this as mafia anyway. I'll just guarantee that I get killed if Transcend flips green.

You think Transcend is scum, so you decide to vote with him? WTF kind of logic is that? Why are you helping scum lynch someone?

If you want to see it that way, fine. It looks bad. But if it gets a mafia in round 2, it helps Town's chances overall. Plus, I could be wrong about IV. If IV is mafia we get mafia round 1, if not, I can slam Transcend round 2 and get him. And I get that someone flipping Town doesn't mean all that much in itself, but he's so scummy at this point, I just can't ignore it.

I'm getting scummy vibes from enefpe, you, and Transcend, but one of you can't be mafia. Enefpe and Transcend both want IV's blood, so even though this looks scummy, I'm unvoting for now.
UNVOTE: Karnos

Everything in the last few pages is dumb and probably ought to be ignored. This is what happens when I don't bring sense to this nonsense. Nobody has anything in terms of evidence. Nobody is at all guaranteed to be any alignment except yourself. Stop spreading bad theory plz.

The notion of rationality and evidence from ms players always amused me. Perception will always be a shifting variable. Nobody is outright scumclaiming. Scumslips are rare. As long as people play to their win condition, any "evidence" someone offers is just going to be their own perspective. What matters is making people agree and see your perspective, your content doesnt matter so much (unfortunately this is just a facet of human nature!). Wall to wall interactions are especially low brow as far as the art of this game goes. If you are tunneling someone, you have nothing too gain by removing yourself from a position of superiority and bringing yourself down to the level of a pedant.

I personally believe intuition is nearly everything in this game! Intuition is just a deeper form of logic you cant really cognate consciously. Well, a few can. Some of the best players on MS are right-brained powehouses (say...faraday, fate), and know how the game works on a social level in a way that the left-brained players here (the majority imo) have a hard time conceiving. In many cases, there are much more subtle things going on than these players can imagine.

dat tangent

LOL. So basically you don't think you have to justify yourself and can fall back on claiming intuition as long as you can get people to agree with your perceptions.

WOW

JUST WOW. I should have trusted my read on you from the beginning, instead of thinking I could be smart about this.

Can we just lynch this obvious mafia now please?

VOTE: Enefpe

Um lol? My position is a bit more nuanced than that but okay? Also wasnt it a bit obvious that i was just discussing theory rather than coming at it from any angle of justification? This is a very weird omgus, my vote feels right.

How is your position more nuanced? Your response is not only expected, but it's exactly the kind of thinking I'm talking about. All you did here is respond with OMGUS. Wow, GREAT EXPLANATION. It's not going to work. I hate to maybe agree with you on intuition, but I was right about you. I'm sure of it.

[Soula]

...?

Uhhh...wat.

[Soula]

Fyi, I'm requesting a replacement. Enefpe saying I think he abused me in a past life is my limit.

[Soula]

soula started to wolf it up hard before she (i hope it wasn't strategically) replaced out. hark was scummy the whole time. penguin was scummy too. i just could not get off my iv tunnel. sfjsfsfjsdkfsjfks i just never fosed joushi at all.

It wasn't. And I'm sorry for quitting like that as mafia, but I didn't play this game to be personally attacked. Enefpe can go to hell. I think I'd enjoy a game that's faster and has more activity, less scrutiny of every little thing that someone does and more focus on reading playstyles; I don't have the patience to sit back and carefully do what Joushi did.

I think I'm too sensitive for this shit or I don't like the asshole factor. I don't know.

/mafiaisnotforme