Mini 1820 — Lazy Summer Mafia (Game Over)

[Slandaar]

I have read but don't really have much to add. Will respond to some stuff later.

[Slandaar]

using meta data from other games is a good way to determine stuff, this is why I edit all my games into my wiki page so people can look over my meta.

Do you feel you're playing similarly to your recent games?

I am fairly sure Manuel is town.

VOTE: Raskol

Will go with this for now.

[Slandaar]

I do plan to explain Raskol, yes.

[Slandaar]

Just putting this out there; I find Slandaar really scummy right now; they lurked until we put votes on them and came back with; more content on monday. then when they returned on monday they havn't really mentioned the rest of the game and just tried to shade me :I

How did I 'shade' you?

You know the answer is no I presume. Why is this?

[Slandaar]

I don't find slandaar doing nothing scummy, it's not very helpful though. Town does that stuff all the time :/

Well you'd think he'd at least comment, and when he voted and said "i'll explain later" that was 2 hours ago nearly!? Like; Its obvious he voted and then went to do something. Like iso him and tell me if he has commented at all about the game :I

Yes I did go and do something else. What's the issue?

Do you feel you're playing similarly to your recent games?

This line here shades me, as it implies that i'm not playing like I have in other games yet provides no content showing that.

I do believe the answer is no which is what you're implying, but, it was a simple question to see what your answer was. You can play differently as town.

Why would you need to look?

I do plan to explain Raskol, yes.

Why hold off on explaining tho?

Sometimes I just don't feel like getting all the quotes and explaining things. I will show one for now:

The Rb thing is good in that it progressed the game; but as a reaction test idk. I see scum do both of these for towncred a reasonable portion of the time too, only DGB seems to question it (infinity kind of?).

Don't like this line. If she isn't sure maybe she should ask questions. It's very waffle waffle sit on the fence.

[Slandaar]

I do believe the answer is no which is what you're implying, but, it was a simple question to see what your answer was. You can play differently as town.

No thats what your implying and im calling you out for.

For? saying you are playing differently? You said you don't know if you are.

Specifically what are you calling me out for?

That's shallow slandaar...

Undecided town doesn't have to ask questions to be undecided. I don't think there was a question he could've asked to help him figure out the situation more.

You can be undecided but normally when someone is unsure/undecided about something they have questions.

Asking for a link to why rb would think you would call it out would have been something.

Finally As far as I remember you didn't post till after you had a vote on you on post 169 where you gave nothing.

I can't always be on ms. Are you trying to find scum or the players who don't have as much time as you?

[Slandaar]

LQ could be scum he has been a bit dopey/not really paying attention and agreeing with me is a good strategy but no-one 'misreps' like that without misremembering. It's more a question of if scumLQ/townLQ is more likely to do so.

Oh wait there's 3 scum. Forgot this is mini not micro.

Oh did you just try to fake townslip?

Why didn't you vote here?

[Slandaar]

I'm calling you out for implying I was playing differently without backing it up

You seemed more confident in the others.

No I'm calling you out for lurking and only posting when the spotlight was put on you and when not you just give nothing of substance at all. like if you can't post often at least comment about whats happening in the game not first post page 7 and only after a vote landed on you and literally say "I have nothing to add"

Not having time isn't lurking.

I posted when I posted what I wanted to post. Do you really think I post 'nothing to add' as scum but not as town

[Slandaar]

Raskol your case reads really well. But I looked at the second game and didn't see anything which matched (1st link didn't work). Can you link me to the exact posts you are referencing please?/Give me the post number.

Aristophanes is scum though. He reads really fake to me and the one thing which was going for him in my eyes was the depth of the naomi read (59 -> part of 63); usually people thinking that in-depth so early and unnecessarily/unprompted is a huge towntell, though even at that point I was wondering how he took it that far ("It's just a few things like that which make me think "towny." " makes it sound like he has a massive multifaceted read). But looking into aristo meta to he actually does this as scum!
mini 1781
micro 627

[Slandaar]

yeah but only 2 of your posts are not responding to people poking you and that is lurking.

That is not what lurking is. Not that lurking is a good tell to begin with. Your whole argument you are making is 'you didn't post anything for 2 days' which is true but does not have any bearing on my alignment.

[Slandaar]

My argument is that you didn't respond till people started pressuring and talking about you

I didn't post for a couple days. Nothing to do with anything else.

and you only come in to defend yourself

I don't see how my first posts are 'defending myself'. You can explain?

You are just creating a false narrative.

[Slandaar]

Try a different route I guess.

your first post came because 2 people voted for you after saying literally nothing.

Not a defence. You are misrepping. Why?

I am fairly sure I only had one vote too.

your second post had your read on Manuel and your vote on Raskol

Not a defence. You are misrepping. Why?

And a question to you.

your third post was saying you'd explain your vote later (which you havn't yet done nearly 24 hours later) after someone questioned you about it

Not a defence. You are misrepping. Why?

and every post there after was a direct response to me after I remarked on your weak line on me.

Not true although the majority, yes. I questioned you, you responded to me, I then obviously respond to you why wouldn't I?

i'd advise replacing out as they are not contributing to finding town by posting short posts to keep the heat off themselves

Don't advise people to replace out.

I think rb is town

Liquety & Slandaar are scum but rb says LQ is lynchbait so mmmmm

And yeah Aristo is scum too

I like Jarjar, I'm not buying the fake townslip reaction test either LOL

I also like Manuel - I don't like NaomiTan's case on him, it feels like scum making up shit

Right now I'm considering voting either Aristo or Slandaar

I'll iso and decide

You are not buying the fake townslip reaction test done by rb but think he is town eh? I see.

[Slandaar]

I'm not going to dignify this with a response.

apart from it all being true

despite him saying your miss reping me why repeatedly Everything I said was true IMO (though it might of been 1 vote but im pretty sure infinity was also on that train) and I'll advise you to replace out if you are town and don't have the time to commit to the game, because if you are town and are just too busy to contribute you should replace out, as its Anti-town and makes our life harder because you want to lurk and skate through the game.

It's factually not true ie you are misrepping. Just explain how any of those posts are defence as you say. I mean that is why you have responded this way because you know it's untrue. Unfortunately this is the route we must go as you are so blind to anything else.

You are advising me to replace because I don't play to your expectations. I find this unacceptable. I was nice previously now I am warning you - don't advise such things.

Anyway I have decided Raskol is

probably

town.

VOTE: Kraska

[Slandaar]

Someone asked why you voted with out information your defence was to say you'll post later, your misrepping me why?

Someone asked a question and I answered. That isn't a defence. If I ask you your name and you answer are you making a defence? no. I am not going to bother with the rest as it's similar but this should show you how you just want to create this false narrative due to bias and are trying to fit everything into it.

I'm not advising it because your not playing to my expectations

Below are your expectations, not the mods, not the sites, yours.

i'm advising it because its post 436 and you have responded 13 times total and have only said 2 or 3 things of relevance in all that time. Also you are saying things (other than defences) with no backing behind them; Like start contributing if you are town! you have a win condition your meant to be trying to obtain

Think more, talk less.

Advising people to replace is at best very impolite. I can demonstrate but I don't want to really I think you are just really naiive.

The top point shows everything I need to I won't be responding to anymore of your nonsense.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Slandaar

His lurking, his excuses, and his kraska vote are baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

I could switch to IPS if it comes to that.

What's bad about it exactly? You have Kraska as super town?

I think rb is town

I'm not buying the fake townslip reaction test either LOL

You are not buying the fake townslip reaction test done by rb but think he is town eh? I see.

I would like a response to this DGB. How exactly can you townread rb but not 'buy' the fake townslip reaction test?

[Slandaar]

I do not believe this is how town thinks:

i feel like he had the opportunity to capitalize on being townread and start pushing for something or start controlling town's perception of the game if he were scum, instead he backtracked on all the reads he started developing here(except for the one on naomi) and sort of took a backseat:

That is the reason to townread? really? it feels like scum making something up to me.

Can you show me examples of where scum have done this opposed to getting the townread and sitting back? Why wouldn't scum sit back and just ride the townread to victory or at least till later in the game? If someone is townread unanimously how much influence on the town do you think they have?

@Slander,

thoughts on my case?

I need to think about it. I don't agree with the conclusion though.

[Slandaar]

Ohhhh right or you think kraska is scum. She might be but I doubt it.

I am voting Kraska.

[Slandaar]

Oh nice, Slandaar doesn't agree with LQ's conclusion that I'm scum, but he disagrees with kraska's townread at the same time.

Yes.

I can disagree with the reasoning of the townread it doesn't mean I necessarily disagree with the conclusion. Maybe you realised this in the post after but just for clarity.

[Slandaar]

What can't you follow?

Scum are going to 'invent' reads. Some of those reads will be correct. It doesn't mean they were not invented.

[Slandaar]

Slandaar says the Rask case is good but fucking played with Aristo in the same game I did where I vigged the dude?

No, I said it read well, I have since checked it and disagree with the posts they were referring to. The case did read well if what they were referring to matched up, but, they don't the reads are not so indepth in the other games.

[Slandaar]

I worded it as I meant. I hadn't fact checked but it read well. I then fact checked.

[Slandaar]

You should probably check my conclusion to see I have done this or just to see if the case is good itself. I don't see why you're dismissing it based off a previous game where you thought he was scum but wasn't?

[Slandaar]

oh i see you fact checked and then it read well

Not what I said.

Raskol your case reads really well. But I looked at the second game and didn't see anything which matched (1st link didn't work). Can you link me to the exact posts you are referencing please?/Give me the post number.

Note the but. Posted before seeing:

mini 1781
micro 627

Yes first link is supposed to be http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7924457
key posts being http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7839869 + http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p7842350
defending VT vs wagon.
But like man I'm actually weirded out reading aristoscum meta. Usually looking when you know alignments it's like "oh of course its so obvious" because you look from that frame of reference but in this I keep seeing things which are usually towntells ewww.

That automagical appearance tho. Aristo you don't contest any of the meta points?

Seriously am I being fucked with? I make a case on how he tends to townread easily and excessively plus buddy people as scum and he responds calling my case the most beautiful one he ever saw and helps with the broken link. Smh the irony (of course from a guy named aristophanes too)

Which I looked at.

As said, you should check my conclusion.

[Slandaar]

i think you need to look at my conclusion before i look at you concluson bcause i fact cecked befoey ou facted chaecked and i see here that youre clearly in teh wrong when it comes to the fact checking because my fact checking is far superior to yours and by that i mean that i read it over well and it read well so but when i fact checked it you were in the same game and he was in the same game and i vigged him but yu said that somethin gariso aosmething and i thought oh yeah and so i was like mmhm mand he was like yeah dawg and thats what happened

That's nice.

I just explained away your point in a very straight forward way and so instead of having a look to see if I had indeed checked the posts and my conclusion is good you decide you are going to try to charisma out of the argument. My meaning is my meaning not the one you are making up.

VOTE: KTS

KTS is scum. Unfortunately he posted some huge walls so I expect I will be even more unpopular now.

Lots of people do left field naked votes but slandaar sounds like he really believes holding off explanations will help him fish useful reactions or prove a point or whatever

I do it as both. It's not alignment indicative one way or the other but it's pretty evident in this game I have been scumhunting if you look. I just like to figure out the scum I really don't care about winning these days.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Slandaar

His lurking, his excuses, and his kraska vote are baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

I could switch to IPS if it comes to that.

What's bad about it exactly? You have Kraska as super town?

DGB.

You are not buying the fake townslip reaction test done by rb but think he is town eh?

Yeah I'd like to hear goofballs explanation here.

I think it's weird but ultimately NAI

How can it be NAI if you don't buy the reaction test?

[Slandaar]

Rask's case on Aristo is something I'd do (but very likely less flashy, more like just LYNCH ARISTO OR FALL UNDERNEATH MY FOOT PUNY MORTALS) if I didn't have experience with Aristo. More notably, I vigged him in a game because he was acting awkward and scummy.

Yep. I even gave this game a break and came back.

This line is awful. 'I would do a case like that but I have played with Aristo before...' doesn't actually tackle the arguments in the case itself or even look at them. Dismissing based on some nonsense 'I read him scum once so I'm not here'

but fucking played with Aristo in the same game I did where I vigged the dude? He was scum there, too, and he pushed the Aristo wagon.

Combined with this.

What does that game have to do with this? the case is completely different, Aristo can be scum. (Ignoring the fact I didn't say it was good)

Just lynch KTS and thank me for playing so well in endgame.

[Slandaar]

Also KTS if you can show where you have replaced into a game and walled up like you have here that would be useful as it doesn't seem in character for you but I could be wrong.

[Slandaar]

Nah I'm not sheeping that.

Your judgement is completely clouded by getting wound up. You should sheep me.

Is KTS scummy or not?

He is scum.

Your interpretation of scummy and mine are probably going to be vastly different.

[Slandaar]

Slandaar's entrance felt off, but that's because I'm extremely wary of him due to the last game I played with him.

Like look at this nonsense.

My entrance was off BECAUSE of the previous game. I mean really. It's so easy.

Just lynch him and be happy.

[Slandaar]

Okay so why do you want him to link games if you have an opinion?

You had an opinion on page 2 of everyone so why are you still posting?

[Slandaar]

But what if he's my scumbuddy dude? I can't lynch my scumbuddy

P-edit: dunno why you keep trying to silence people who're trying to figure out the game. This is why I can't sheep you m8

What? I was making the point that you post to get a better read or more informed read etc.

Like if you already have this strong scumread I dunno why you're trying to doubly scumread him through linking a game. Why you try so hard to look like your case is good?

Not trying to doubly scumread. I can still reevaluate but I like this a lot. It is good. If you don't understand it let me know.

Ohhh he said ur scum or bad which is basically bad or bad because if ur scum ur getting scumread which is bad and if ur town ur just bad.

I think u are currently more wound than me and you should sheep me instead. Ty.

I hit a nerve it seems.

[Slandaar]

I'm trying to figure out what buttons KTS pressed.

All my other scumreads were kinda eh maybe. This one though

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Slandaar
Really I'm Tired of dealing with him..

I'm tired of dealing with you.

Thinking and not talking denies town information

I didn't say don't talk I said talk less. Rest of the paragraph is based on this wrong interpretation so is pointless.

It was advice to you personally not a general thing - Thinking more is better than saying stuff that just isn't thought out so has to be corrected constantly, wasting time and just filling the thread with junk. Like this exact post.

[Slandaar]

I'm town.

DGB/KTS/Maria

How anyone doesn't have DGB as scum I don't know.

[Slandaar]

Other than the flip on rb's fake townslip, what's scummy about her?

I'm pretty sure she plays like this regardless of alignment.

DGB? She is completely off her town meta.

VOTE: Slandaar

His lurking, his excuses, and his kraska vote are baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

I could switch to IPS if it comes to that.

What's bad about it exactly? You have Kraska as super town?

DGB.

You are not buying the fake townslip reaction test done by rb but think he is town eh?

Yeah I'd like to hear goofballs explanation here.

I think it's weird but ultimately NAI

How can it be NAI if you don't buy the reaction test?

Maria? Her accusations have been very weak + POE.

[Slandaar]

Explain more.

Meta wise DGB hasn't posted enough townreads, she hasn't shown anything to make someone town (in her opinion), she has been buzzwording it up an unusually high amount and the below just felt insanely off for her:

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

Explain all of your scumreads.

Fencesitting, followed by OMGUS

I know I'm good

How did I catch you so fast?

Combined with the unanswered mysteries lets call them and yeah.

Maria I don't have much to say. It's my less certain read by a lot.

KTS - it's exactly what I said, he tried to charisma out of the argument he got completely wrong but it just doesn't work on me. He hasn't come back to the argument or done anything since, he knows it, he didn't reevaluate so hes scum. Hasn't provided the walls when replacing in either as an aside.

[Slandaar]

Town
Infinity
Raskol
Manuel
Naomi
Unfortunately rb

Fairly town
Kraska

More like towneh
JarJar

Leaving
LQ, KTS, DGB, Maria, Aristo

Aristo kinda dealt with the case from Raskol well. LQ going for rb is kinda eh maybe.

Leaving
Maria, DGB, KTS.

KTS/DGB are definite.

Also LMFAO what is Manuel doing.

No wonder I can't read this game. There's more terrible votes than there are scum. Those of you that are town can u plz not?

Why are you voting me? do you have reasons? no. Just a bruised ego.

Stop being a waste of space and actually vote scum.

[Slandaar]

Lmao the LQ case is so bad. It's literally, "in this scum game we played I saw you do a kind of similar thing and I haven't necessarily seen you do it as town"

Fucking amazing. Play 2 games with someone, suddenly they're able to sort your alignment with meta alone LOL

If LQ is town he needs to stop being a pathetic scumhunter.

Seriously. Read your own posts. You're not good, you said so yourself, so stop putting others down.

Sort yourself out. You gave a good first impression but you have been wound up and lost the plot.

DGB has unanswered questions because she has no legit answer to them. She is scum.
KTS is scum he is not even voting anyone. /he has no thrust after coming into the game with loads of content. That isn't town.

I hope you have a revelation after this post but I don't hold out hope.

[Slandaar]

Am I a Scum read or just a PoE?

More very very slightly town.

[Slandaar]

LQ is 100% scum I can basically guarantee it

Then call him scum. Don't call him bad. Everyone is wrong or has bad ideas occasionally and sometimes they are only bad ideas in your mind but not actually bad ideas.
(yes I know he is replaced)

I tried to help you. Moving on.

Am I a Scum read or just a PoE?

More very very slightly town.

I'm guessing you have some pretty good reasons for such a specific read?

I wouldn't call them pretty good reasons. It means there are arguments for and against you but on balance I just think they very slightly point to you being town.

wait so your veiw on me switched to be the reverse? how come?

I never actually said you were scum. I suspected you for a brief period but if you look I said you were off meta and you were at the start. You are more confident now.

Slandaar, explain your JarJar read, I am not getting how they can be a Town read.

His vote on DGB was very good - DGB response doesn't make sense and she has not elaborated.

[Slandaar]

I'm a night two JOAT.

Claim the abilities.

Uh, slandaar is VI.

You know this isn't true. Even if I am wrong on you it doesn't make me a VI.

[Slandaar]

Nevermind didn't notice hammer. We will see then.

Getting him to claim abilites was kind of important though.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: DGB

[Slandaar]

Slandaar is still scum

Maybe I can help him bus his buddy though
VOTE: Killthestory

Seriously just lynch this.

[Slandaar]

Slandaar for one had a sr on the most obv person in this town

Who? You mean yourself?

trying to give reads with escape routes so incase any of his reads got sheeped and was wrong he'd always have a blanket to fall back on

Did I indeed? Show an 'escape route'.

I should most likely say why I hate reads lists why I'm here in my experience this is what happens with a lot of reads lists:

Player A (town) *makes reads list* Player B (Town) "Can I have you reasoning for Player D" Player A: Well this is kinda a hard townread/scumread for me to explain Player B: This guy must be scum his reads are weak and he can't explain them! *Player A is lynched*

Player C (mafia): Player B led a bw on Player A knowing he was town he's prob mafia! *Player B gets lynched*

Why do one then? You did one because you think it helps scum?

[Slandaar]

I think him claiming the role plus the specifics of this setup mean even if he was town the role has already essentially lost utility.

How can you argue this when you didn't get him to claim his abilities?

[Slandaar]

1) Naomi

I mean you accused me of not reading the thread...

3) I did one because I felt forced and I had to do one.

Hmmm. Who was making you feel forced to post one?

[Slandaar]

My reads are what they are. You are saying all my reads should be certain town or certain scum?

Do you think people would sheep my 'eh' reads? Am I trying to get people to sheep those reads?

[Slandaar]

When you were calling me scum in a few posts (like the one I quoted) did you read where I said "i'll say why they're scum later" Or did you miss that.

I just don't find it relevant. I didn't like how you had RB&Infinity as scum but liked their interaction. Then you voted LQ? I didn't really need further explanation. As said I didn't have you as super scum just most likely of everyone bar DGB/KTS.

[Slandaar]

My reads are what they are. You are saying all my reads should be certain town or certain scum?

Do you think people would sheep my 'eh' reads? Am I trying to get people to sheep those reads?

and to answer your other question I think people should out certain reads instead of eh reads but that's my personal pref

Indeed it is.

That doesn't answer my second/third question. (the more important part)

[Slandaar]

Do you think people would sheep my 'eh' reads? Am I trying to get people to sheep those reads?

[Slandaar]

No I don't think people would and no I don't think you are trying to get people to sheep them I haven't seen you push on any "eh" read

Excellent.

Here's a few here you keep going like this "could be town" "eh maybe" on this one more like a fall back being unsure on reads is a normal thing but not the way you're wording them

he went at it also trying to give reads with escape routes so incase any of his reads got sheeped and was wrong he'd always have a blanket to fall back on

I'm out for a bit need to work. Think about it.

[Slandaar]

I was talking with slanndaar I was saying his eh reads he can use to fall back

But they are my reads. You are basically saying I have to read people either Solid Town or Solid Scum I cannot have any inbetween.

Player A (town) *makes reads list* Player B (Town) "Can I have you reasoning for Player D" Player A: Well this is kinda a hard townread/scumread for me to explain Player B: This guy must be scum his reads are weak and he can't explain them! *Player A is lynched*

Manuel is saying I am player A and you are Player B.

[Slandaar]

I keep getting lynched everywhere lately

It has made playing mafia super boring

You were not lynched here
You were also not lynched here

I haven't bothered to look at any other games because there isn't much point other than to show you are greatly exaggerating you probably were lynched once or twice. If we look at this game and compare the two to here there is a difference in how you have played. Is it because you're scum? I think so yes.

You haven't posted anything of worth here at all. I can normally tell when you're town but I really don't think you are here. I suspected you way before I started pushing you yesterday to give you every chance to convince me otherwise but you didn't.

If you're not scum I suggest you go back and answer the questions I directed at you. You should probably just do that as scum too.

[Slandaar]

I guess what i'm trying to say is lets say you have someone in your "could be scum" pool and that player flips mafia being like: See I told you! THAT'S what would ping me

Alright but I haven't done that. Don't think it's a scum action anyways, town like to take credit but it's up to you to credit people appropriately.

[Slandaar]

UNVOTE: DGB

The day is young and I would like to see her response.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: DGB

[Slandaar]

Looking at his meta though I see similar as both unfortunately

You will need to explain this.

You need to use singlescum games as an example. SK/Multiball games are very different meta I don't feel like explaining why but it should be obvious.

[Slandaar]

Looking at his meta though I see similar as both unfortunately

You will need to explain this.

You need to use singlescum games as an example. SK/Multiball games are very different meta I don't feel like explaining why but it should be obvious.

Oh look scum doing the IIoA dance

Uhuh.

Anyone who has looked at my meta properly would know I am town here. Similarities don't exist.

So, what is it you are saying here DGB?

Raskol are you going to answer?

Manuel and slandaar claim roles please.

I am not claiming today.

Seems you have and you didn't answer the previous for some reason. Why did you claim?

[Slandaar]

PEdit: slandaar at least claim whether you're a PR, there's no downside unless you're investigative and scum won't know whether you are or not.

Lets think about it.

We have 2 dead PR (powerfulish)

Why would we claim the last 2-3 PR for scum to kill before they can take their action tonight?

And then when scum have PR of their own you are making the game too easy for them.

What are you doing?

Massclaim tomorrow. Claiming today is idiocy and I won't be a part of it.

[Slandaar]

I really don't feel like arguing it.

There are 11 alive - 3 scum = 8. Scum either shoot within 8 (depends upon lynch today could be 7) or 2-3

Shooting in the dark indeed.

[Slandaar]

They are lower if we don't claim. The end.

[Slandaar]

What I was saying is that posts I thought had towntells in your game turned out useless because I saw similar from you both alignments... in total reading into it was kind of inconclusive and it feels careless assuming I can read you after seeing those scumgames.

Yes. And what I am saying is I have very high suspicion you looked at games which are not relveant if you did look at any.

Also claim.

Your argument is you won't claim now because the claim was a bad idea in the first place but that doesn't really follow... with all that's out already there's no downside to finishing.

There is but lets reverse that. Is there an upside?

Don't like this stubbornness though; I feel you should know better?

Did you actually look at my meta?



We can all play that game. I feel the town as a whole should have known better than to massclaim. Don't like your stubbornness. You should know better than to not accept my stance? especially when your best argument is 'wah wah everyone else has claimed!' (not an argument).

[Slandaar]

Unless I'm missing something, here's what I have for claims:

DrippingGoofball - PR (Watcher)
Firebringer- VT
hiplop - ??????
Infinity 324 - PR
JarJarDrinks - PR
LicketyQuickety - VT
Manuel87 - PR
MariaR - PR
Raskolnikov - VT
Slandaar - ??????
Vedith - PR

Way too many PR claims if this is accurate but then 1 of DGB/Vedith is scum (DGB) so that is one. Another PR claim is scum at least.

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar you have to claim now. I think it was a shitty decision but the box has already been opened.

Why?

[Slandaar]

meta didn't help me

You are saying meta has heavily influenced you.

there are a few things I pickup which are usually towntells for me. Looking at his meta though I see similar as both unfortunately, altogether he looks really good with scum and I don't think I can reliably read him.

so you're between my scumreads and townreads.

In relation to the post in question that should not be true. I was in every scumteam you had even with DGB which now you are saying is unlikely? Ohhhhhhh Oh. Oh!

Found who I was wrong on

Organising again, these feel most likely
Hiplop(aristo), Slandaar, DGB <- #1

and you have a bad association with DGB so I think you're more likely town here

[Slandaar]

Scum killed VT claim as they are hidden in PR claims. Makes sense.

[Slandaar]

hiplop
slandaar
jarjar
firebringer
maria
LQ
rask
me
vedith

Objections?

Why didn't you put yourself last?

The actual order is:
Hip
Rask
Vedith
JarJar
Maria
LQ
Fire
Infinity
Me

I go last because I am obviously town - DGB voted me the entire game and everyone knows what I am claiming anyways.

[Slandaar]

DGB voted you?

[Slandaar]

Infinity doesn't.

I think there is a decent possibility you bussed Vedity, so no, you are not obvious town at all.

[Slandaar]

DGB was dead before the claim I don't think your claim is worth much. Claim was delayed, can easily concocted in chat once no-one else cc'ed.

[Slandaar]

You do. Did you not do something last night Vedith?

[Slandaar]

I claimed VT if you weren't paying attention.

No I didn't pay attention. That said everyone should still claim as it is final. I will take this as your claim though so you claimed first.

[Slandaar]

But considering that list is for people to claim, I'm not sure that I even need to be on that list.

You do. Did you not do something last night Vedith?

Just want to make it clear what this is replying to.

[Slandaar]

Why are you spamming the thread?

[Slandaar]

This is a game of mafia. I don't care what films any of you like or don't. You kids can discuss films elsewhere there are many places on the internet to do that.

[Slandaar]

Also I think wanting vedith and vts to claim again is kind of redundant.

Vedith was claiming again to claim result. Hardly redundant.

VT's are claiming again so that any PR who decided 'I will claim VT to avoid NK' can claim etc. It locks people into their claims no 'oh I'm an X' later on.

You have now claimed.

[Slandaar]

I will.

[Slandaar]

Hip -
Rask - Claimed VT
Vedith - Claimed Watcher targeting Fire
JarJar - Claims 'Guilty' on someone.
Maria -
LQ -
Fire - Claimed VT
Infinity -
Sland -

Make sure Hiplop claims if he turns up.

[Slandaar]

anyone that didn't claim yesterday (SLander and hiplop I believe) should claim as soon as they show up.

Luckily my name isn't Slander. Hiplop though I agree.

[Slandaar]

LQ
Infinity
Maria
JarJar
Me

Is the new order I think.

[Slandaar]

Yeah, I haven't posted in the 13 hours since Hiplop mentioned me at 1:49 am. How bad I must look. You should probably think more. It gives a bad impression when you don't hence your name I guess.

VT

Popcorn JarJar.

[Slandaar]

Eh it's Tuesday feels like Monday. Whatever. Still JarJar goes next.

[Slandaar]

Final scum is a pr claim obviously so you should lean a different direction. There isn't 7 town pr.

[Slandaar]

Mafia Voyeur

Town IC
Town Friendly Neighbour / Role cop / Neapolitan

Doc
Watcher
Tracker
Gunsmith
Infinity Claim

All effectively 1 shot but clearly too much as Voyeur is pretty weak.

Doc doesn't make much sense in a N2 setup as town can never take the numbers back to odd if they successfully protect with the current claims. Slightly depends on Infinity not claiming a RB type role/Vig but then Vedith is scum when that happens so meh. Not saying its definite but its something to consider.

[Slandaar]

Eh I was close to solving this on D1. I wish you guys hadn't lynched KTS after DGB voted him it was obvious what was going on.

I can say this now because the game is over

VOTE: Hip

[Slandaar]

There is a lot of bad logic in this thread. Will be back tomorrow to cover things properly.

1. Setups are not balanced based on town mislynching ccing doc claims
2. Infinity is not confirmed doc he could be any type of pr. He is only confirmed to be able to visit someone.
3. Infinity had to claim something. Name something other than doc don't say it doesn't make sense to claim doc.
4. There are 7 PR if all PR claims are town. Not 6 or 5.

Scum is probably infinity.

I think it is a really bad idea not to lynch infinity today.

[Slandaar]

2 Dead VT + Rask + Sland = All VT claims.

If one of us is scum there are only 3/10 VT. Really late for me though so am out now.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: LQ

Should we finish the claims first
also *Ahem* I TOLD YOU SO I TOLD YOU SO I TOLD YOU SO I TOLD YOU SO

I totally believe this is town.

holy shit wtf I was rdy to enter another game

zzz

Slightly less than above but quite town.

VOTE: hiplop

poor jarjar. you know you don't actually get the win if you don't survive?

Completely believe this is town. + VT claim.

Leaves Vedith and Infinity.

I mean you two have to trust I am town but I mean 7 PR claims including Friendly Neighbour + IC = Too much. It just is. If anyone wants to argue against please provide a game with so much town power even if everything is N2 only Friendly Neighbour(+Other Opions) + IC + N2 Gunsmith + N2 Watcher + N2 Doc + N2 Doc + N2 Tracker. It's just so much power.
(Balanced against Mafia Voyeur + Goon + X)

Infinity today. If it doesn't end the game Vedith tomorrow. I don't think I can be convinced to do anything else. Vediths posting yesterday after lynch was pretty bad as he was saying 'IF hiplop is town' which is ridiculous from my POV I was like 100% it was Hiplop scum:

If HipLop is town then this is scum.

It's probably infinity though 2 Doc's I really do doubt.

[Slandaar]

So you all know: there CAN be two N2 town docs. It doesn't happen very often but it can happen. There is usually a good reason for it though I don't see the reason for it here other than to mess with town.

[Slandaar]

They would just drop the town power level instead of doing that. They don't balance, as I have said, by messing up town with counterclaiming town PR's.

[Slandaar]

vedith saying they forgot role to then CCing DGB while saying LQ is town is mad wifom

Yes, as I said a couple days ago, due to scumchat it is possible that Vedith decided/was advised to bus DGB who was inevitably going to be lynched.

He claimed quite a while after DGB, long enough to make sure no-one else was counter claiming.

[Slandaar]

Slandarr why are you ignoring my question to you?

Didn't have time when I read that section and forgot.

Don't really care for the question anyways. It should be obvious why, you can see my read progression on DGB and she voted me the entire game almost. If you don't consider that obvtown then you shouldn't consider anyone obvtown.

[Slandaar]

DGB bussing both her buddies, she is generally averse to bussing.

How do you know this?

I don't/didn't know that and it's clear I know her meta better than you.

[Slandaar]

for a different reason

Suggest one.

[Slandaar]

That isn't a reason for TWO DOCS it's a reason for TWO PR.

[Slandaar]

Motion Detector. Bodyguard. Cop. Rolecop (remove it from JOAT) etc etc. There is a long list on the wiki. It doesn't need to protect. The setup already had Watcher/Doc (Watcher effectively protects)

[Slandaar]

It's impossible for me to be scum as I have a town PM.

[Slandaar]

That's not much of a case...

It wasn't a case.

And I feel if you were truly town you would bring up points today like me visiting Fire instead of others, or me hammering early yesterday.
What you are saying is that you think I am scum, but we should lynch Infinity first although he is proven to have visited me.

I think Infinity is scum. You are second most likely.

Where did I say otherwise?

[Slandaar]

This shows high doubt about Infinity

There is some doubt because I had him as town a long time so yes.

High doubt? not really.

You are just trying to pick on my wording.

[Slandaar]

If he was a Mafia doc, why would he visit me out of all people?
If they had a Mafia doc, they would be worried that town have a vig and protect themselves.
If he wanted credit for visiting someone not dying, then why visit the watcher?

He would claim Doc because it makes no sense for scum to claim doc.

It's really simple. You have to go by the setup today as we cannot ignore 2 Doc claims & There is no valid reason for 2 docs in this setup.

[Slandaar]

I should probably meta vedith.

Still not convinced a PR has to be scum because docs ccing helps put scum.

OK if you want to argue this show me a game where the town was balanced using 2 PR to cc each other

[Slandaar]

It's not pick on your wording.
Tell me that I'm wrong that scum Mafia can be the only role he will be to visit me, and he would have to be very bad at Mafia to visit the watcher.

He could be a mafia follower.

It makes sense.

Tracker town follower scum.

AND Watcher town voyeur scum.

Makes a lot of sense.

+ He targets you because it's a pointless role for scum when massclaim is coming today but it looks good if he is ... tracked.

[Slandaar]

That is just an example though I don't want a huge debate on this nonsense as it's clear there are mafia roles he could be.

[Slandaar]

Stealing Raskols Colouring...

There are a lot of similar roles ie:

IC + FN:
Killthestory,

Town Night 2 Jack of all Trades (Role Cop, Neapolitan, Friendly Neighbor)

, was lynched Day 1.
Naomi-Tan,

Town Night 2 Innocent Child

, died Night 1.

Gunsmith + Neapolitan
JarJarDrinks,

Town Night 2 Gunsmith

, died Night 3.

Voyeur + Watcher (Claim)
DrippingGoofball,

Mafia Night 2 Voyeur

, was lynched Day 2.
vedith

Town Night 2 Watcher claim

Leaves:
Rolecop
hiplop,

Town Night 2 Doctor

, was lynched Day 4.

mariar

Town Night 2 Tracker claim

(role vouched for by infinity)

Infinity

Town Night 2 Doctor claim

(role does in fact visit and doesn't roleblock)

Which don't really match up. You could also match Rolecop with Neapolitan leaving the gunsmith. Gunsmith and Doctor? Tracker and Follower?

Just pointing this out.

[Slandaar]

1805 is a brilliant example of what I was talking about. You can see the synergy with the double rolecop there. You can't here.

3 shot vig
1 shot bp
2 Rolecop neighbours

The game above is balanced because you can logically deduce both rolecops are town both being neighbours. The 2 docs here just don't make sense.

For full disclosure I felt infinity accusing rb of faking his annoyance of LQ was town. It just doesn't seem like the type of argument scum make.

One reason there could be 2 docs is so that if a protection happens (with IC/FN etc) you don't know who was protected but still feel that the two docs would mess town up way too much and so this reasoning falls flat. (It wouldn't be a debate about who is confirmed town/weaken the protection results it would be a discussion about which doc to lynch) so actually yeah not a valid reason.

All things considered I just don't see how Infinity can be town with his claim. The whole argument is the claim but I can't look past it.

VOTE: Infinity

[Slandaar]

Slandaar isn't watcher here more of an unbalanced setup than double doc though?

It's double Doc.

Most towns will lynch both Doc claims without much thought that isn't a sensible balancing strategy.

Vedith is the answer to the other question but I really think Infinity is the scum here.

[Slandaar]

This setup was insanely scum sided ruined game really.

[Slandaar]

I probably should have thought more about the double Doctors during review. It was pretty much inevitable in a setup like this; Doctor's not a role that has a high chance of hitting under normal circumstances, and there's more than one player who might reasonably need protecting overnight (several players had confirmable roles that could have been claimed). As such, the duplicate Doctors weren't much of a red flag for me, although I should probably have allowed for the possibility that there'd be no setup speculation experts in the town who could figure that out.

So you don't think if a Doc claims D1/D2 the other cc and we lynch through both every time? Like what?

Also, I'm surprised that the setup can be considered scumsided when two of town's strongest power roles died D1 and N1 (Killthestory had a Friendly Neighbour shot, there's no way you should be lynching that D1), and yet town ended up having three tries to find the last scum. I was very worried I'd accidentally made it too townsided while watching the game, but Maria did well to make her way through to the end.

Results oriented. This is an argument? From a Reviewer?

Setup expert indeed.

[Slandaar]

So you don't think if a Doc claims D1/D2 the other cc and we lynch through both every time? Like what?

It's not weird to have an N1 doc and an N2 doc. So why is it weird to have two N2 docs?

I am beginning to see...

You can assess how well town and scum played, then try to work out how you'd expect a balanced setup to end up given that. As such, seeing how the game worked out in practice can be a guide to balance, as long as you adjust for what the factions actually did. The setup ended up rather more townsided than would be expected for town lynching scum in the first two days but losing two major power roles in the process.

I see.

The gunsmith hit scum for the D3 lynch that doesn't always happen. You omit this from your 'arguments' and your 'analysis'.

You have no idea of balance so now I know.

[Slandaar]

So you don't think if a Doc claims D1/D2 the other cc and we lynch through both every time? Like what?

if your setup spec is based on the simplistic and arbitrary premise "there CAN'T be town duplicates" then... yeah ya'll deserved the two mislynches.

You make a very clever response. You didn't answer the question but I'm sure there is a reason for that.

I said in game it's possible to have the same role go check if you want. The point is though you know people are going to cc so you know the docs are getting lynched. The setup therefore isn't balanced.

The absolutely awful argument previously posed is N1 Doc + N2 Doc. Difference being you can logically decude as a N2 doc that there could be a N1 doc and so don't cc automatically.

It's all to do with town being able to work out both roles can be town and there isn't a way to do that here so you have a setup with 2 free mislynches for scum. Ridiculous really. Docs are anti town in this setup as is so having 2 is an absolute joke. If one protected on N2 you don't know which, you go to even numbers and then they both get lynched most of the time too.

You are balancing setups to be around 50/50 in the sites meta. You are not balancing for 5 year olds, you are not balancing for some other website where every one is a PR. The two doc is broken in scums favour in the sites meta. That is the bottom line.

Turns out your response wasn't so clever.

[Slandaar]

(you need more town power if you move from site meta to multiple of same roles are accepted as it is a big influence in previous games results in towns favour)

[Slandaar]

what is binding town to lynching both doc claims?

that's not being clever, i'm seriously asking

I am not bound to go to work but you know I will. Your arguments are just pointless.

Why wasn't one of the docs a tracker?

[Slandaar]

Slandaar is just salty. It's okay slandaar, I was wrong too.

Just a waste of time when the setup is 80/20. I wasn't really wrong.

[Slandaar]

AH, if you are so sure this is balanced, show me a normal game where scum and town had the exact same role and the scum wasn't lynched when claiming said role (scum must make it to endgame without being lynched due to role).

There must be a few around as you don't expect town to suspect the claim. Right?

[Slandaar]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=57689
there was 1 town neighborizer 1 scum neighborizer we didn't lynch either

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=23589
two town millers, didn't lynch both

They are both larges from years ago so relevance is ehh. Not really the same thing either; multiple miller is logical, multiple neighbourizer is whatever. How is multiple doc on N2 logical? I don't class them in the same category as doctor or similar you can't balance a game with roles like miller/neighbourizer only can you? they are not really power. Tracker, watcher, JK, Show something more relevant instead of basically examples which are not very similar to this at all.

Why didn't you explain why one of the docs wasn't a tracker?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=62944
this one's a theme, but i had a nearly identical copy of another townie's role as scum and didn't get lynched when i claimed and got cc'ed

Its a theme as you said so not relevant. We are not talking about themes, or football, or cricket... normals.

[Slandaar]

1805 is a brilliant example of what I was talking about. You can see the synergy with the double rolecop there. You can't here.

3 shot vig
1 shot bp
2 Rolecop neighbours

The game above is balanced because you can logically deduce both rolecops are town both being neighbours.

To further the point AH here was an example shown in the game with 2 of the same role but the difference here is they were neighboured up which gives you a hint. Like you can see how town can work it out. The neighbourhood is there for that very purpose right? seems obvious to me.

[Slandaar]

Why would they need a hint if town wouldn't just lynch a cc? Dear oh dear reviewers.

[Slandaar]

I shall summarise quickly and then done because you guys don't really seem to have an argument

You are trying to be too clever for your own good with this setup and didn't really understand what you were doing. It can't be balanced without changing the sitemeta. You can change this by adding setups like this to the meta but when you do that the first few will run hugely scum favoured until towns get used to it.

So, you are either trying to shift meta for what reason I don't know which is terrible and you should probably announce it to ensure some games don't run 80/20 or so. Even then your setups are not going to be balanced just based on the fact you are removing counterclaims (which is very protown) from the meta when all previous setups are based around using games within the counterclaiming meta.

I mean really.

Perhaps you didn't see the difference between 2 docs and 2 neighbourisers but now you should. As I say they are different they might be 'power' but only one of the roles can be used to balance setups properly. 4 Millers 4 Neighbours is what? 4 docs 4 trackers is something. Again if you had a setup with 4 millers 2 cops then people can deduce both cops are town, if you have 1 cop, 2 doc, 1 (scum) tracker, 1 watcher, 1 vig or whatever people are going to lynch the docs it's really obvious that is what happens which is why you wouldn't have the same setup but with 2 trackers one of which is town...