Kids TV Show Characters Mafia - Endgame

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Imperium

– serious issue … please tell me Tammy is actually participating in the hydra so I can get a super easy read on your slot.

I’m inclined to read Snarky as scum for 64 especially after all the commentary on how he’s not going to do anything.

The irony of Gribb’s 77 is staggering.

--

All I know is when I saw the game and saw the brain I was expecting cool cartoon characters I grew up watching, not something my son watches.

Could be worse. You could have a character that is too young for you and too old for your kid like mine is …

Why couldn’t I be Scooby Doo?

--

Just because someone has consistently exhibited a behavior and has never really acted on the contrary doesn't mean you can always assume that's how they will act. That's preposterous!

Given Snarky’s history I find this pretty preposterous itself …

Hey hey hey, we should start getting NU roles claimed. We don't want someone on day 4 claiming "omg I'm Miller so that's why I showed up as evil"

Negative utility.

e.g. Miller, PGO, ascetic.

Really just anything that could screw with the town. (Maybe [hopefully] meta has changed so that we don't out that anymore. I didn't like that part of meta, but maybe it's changed in the ~6 months I've been gone.

VOTE: Diamond

1. I'd suggest not hinting at flavors yet, just so that no information gets out before we decide for it to be.

This is pure LAMIST posting. Farside’s comment narrowed down her possible flavor to what, probably thousands of possible choices?

Don't ask me for reasons. Either trust me or not, but don't make me explain myself.

Oh look – pre-emptive “I can’t be held accountable for having any reasaonble thought process” to explain anything that doesn’t make sense from Town. I like me vote even for page 5.

Town faction is already shown to be called "The Good Guys". Death comes swiftly to those who lie!

Aside from the already mentioned fact that it is the Good Characters the way you worded strikes me as off. RVS fun and games showing letting slip that your role PM isn’t a Good Character?

@Kuroi Head of MJ

– what do you think of this in light of your slips in UPick Science?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Aside from the already mentioned fact that it is the Good Characters the way you worded strikes me as off. RVS fun and games showing letting slip that your role PM isn’t a Good Character?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Does that mean we really need to take down a miller because it's only a distraction? Well no. They still townie and outing them isn't good. (Cauz they are obvs a townie)

You claimed you have other Mafia experience? Is that correct because this response tells me it seems pretty sparse if that's the case.

1. Miller / Ascetics / Others Select Roles I Don't Want to Bother Listing should CLAIM immediately Day 1. Because they can cause problems with Town roles (Cops / Etc) properly deploying their abilities. So it is important to make that important information public before it can cause a problem.

What do you do when a Cop claims a Guilty on a player Day 3 and that player suddenly claims Miller?

2. No-one said they needed to be immediately lynched.

3. Have you never had experience with scum fake-claiming?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wouldn't you draw the opposite conclusion from that?
He was literally just given permission to lurk and decided not to.
What's the incentive to try and post more when you've been classified as a lurker and can get away with it?

Do you think lurking would get him through the game as scum? Nope. It never does. At some point he would be up for noose (if not Vigged / whatever prior to that point) for non-performance if associations are bad enough.

I think I'm pretty proficient at reading Snarky. At least as proficient as you can get with someone who plays as he plays. So far this is not Town Snarky in my mind.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

I’m not sure what to make of the Cheetory versus Fox back and forth other than to say it seems a little hyperbolic at points …

DS’s ISO still makes me feel content with my early game vote. He’s interested in posting in a way that looks reasonable (and thus presumed Town) but doesn’t look to be wanting to sort people. Take 184 for example – he’s already amassed five or so votes by this point. If the inference he is making here is that he was joking and no-one is seeing it then it stands to reason that at least one of those votes is probably scum. Yet no effort to parse the wagon and look at who might be scum other than some half-hearted poking at the Newbie. Take his “kdowns is scum WhiteKnighting / Chainsawing / Whatever tell he wants it to be” stance while voting Ceph for being annoying. I don’t care if it is early on if he truly believed that kdowns was possible scum (even with little conviction because it is early) he’d be voting him if he was approaching this from a Town perspective.

I also don’t feel very positive about hiplop (lack of) contributions so far.

Ceph can be Town.

--

.what slips?

Don’t be coy with me Kuroi – the fact that you tried to peddle situations (possibility of Multiball or SK) that couldn’t possibly be true given the set-up was publicized in an attempt to look uniformed. I can pull your posts and my responses if you’d like but I know you know what I’m talking about.

Again – your thoughts?

--

What would you say your track record is percentage wise with reading him?

100%. Here are my completed games with him where I am Town and thus have to actually try to read him –

Mini Normal Inspirational Mafia - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=66137

Both of us Town. I read him as “Not Scum” (because Snarky is never Town given his playstyle) and was able to leverage that read into driving the wagon on two of the three scum in the game.

Micro DC Dual Universe UPick - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=66399

I was scum on Earth 2 (but I didn’t push him even there). On Earth 1 I correctly read him as Town and push one of the two scum both Days I was alive (and the other was a strong push the second day along with Ranger).

Open 633 - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=65953

Both of us Town. I correctly read him as such and spent all of Day 2 (when Snarky got mislynched basically to ego massage Radiant Cowbells) trying to get a wagon going on scum Ranger.

Open 637 Fire and Ice - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66176

Both of us Town – Correctly read him as Town and identified 2 of the 3 remaining scum in my replace in first post. Was rewarded with being mislynched by Snarky because he’s just plain bad.

So yeah, it’s a small sample size and he’s never been scum but I feel comfortable so far. If Diamond isn't scum then his recent "He shouldn't be wagonned" would make me even more confident.

More than you wanted to read?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't know that there's any rule saying he's obligated to look at his own wagon. I know I wouldn't care terribly much about that in his shoes, anyway. But it's certainly valid that if he really is concerned about kdowns he should be voting kdowns and not me.

You clearly have not looked at your MafiaScum Rules and Regulations Manual in Section 7, Subsection A, Paragraph II then ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Again, I really have no idea what you're talking about. Give me more information. Give me a game that we were both in, because I don't know what you mean.

-K

Antihero's Science UPick

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66702

I already told you that is where it came from. And it isn't like this is from that long ago. My patience with you about this is rapidly wearing thin ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Magna, is it cool if I buddy you a bit?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm clearly like 10 pages behind atm or so, so

Yeah it happened on Page 13 so being 10 pages back is no excuse for not having seen it.

I have some other thoughts but those will have to wait til I am not VLA phone posting.

VOTE: Snarky

[MagnaofIllusion]

Catching up now …

[MagnaofIllusion]

I regret engaging Cheetory on Snarky when he first questioned my Snarky read if only because in hindsight I probably should have given Snarky some more rope to hang himself with. But that’s out the door. 64 is not a post Town Snarky makes. His complete lack of reaction to my post on my success of reading him in the past makes sense from a scum perspective. I had called him scum but my vote was still on Diamond. Best course of action is not to “poke the bear” and maybe let my early read wash away in the obvious tidal wave of posts every Large game gets Day 1.

On top of Snarky and hiplop I’d also be satisfied with a camntsuki wagon after that weak-ass entrance. After supposedly reading 24 pages of material.

@farside

– please positive confirm or deny Diamond’s assertion in 622 that you claimed a Negative Utility role on Page 5.

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Hiplop’s reaction to my mild prodding is also makes me lean scum on him. Looks like the fake outrage Radiant Cowbells is probably the best template for this type of play on-site currently. His follow-up to it was to toss out some buzzwords (“Throw Shade, Fencesit”) and cobble together a small case to support his OMGUS which ironically is an attempt to “look busy” given he accused me of that exact fact.

But let’s address something that I think got away in the hiplop’s initial spamming –

THE FACT THAT HE SAYS THE "OH THIS BIG FIGHT IS TVT" IS REAL FUCKING BAD

Suddenly the context of your initial supposed scum play on me just changed here. Fence-sitting is not taking any position. Calling the Cheet / Fox slap-fight a Town versus Town fight would be the exact opposite of that. The fact you can’t even be sure what I am supposedly scum for doing is a sign you aren’t scum-hunting but just looking to find things you can paint as scummy.

We know I never called it TvT so this quote is a lie. Furthermore several people actually did call it TvT and you somehow didn’t bother to call them scum for it. Why is that?

eh snarky gets lynched day one like literally every game

Nope. In fact he didn’t get lynched as Town Day 1 in any of my joint games with him. Try again to dissuade a wagon on him?

It just

never feels good to lynch that snowman

Yup you did.

snarky being lynchbait is irrefutable, is what I am saying

Ooo and again.

VOTE: snarky

trusting you. Can't read the snowman

And the 180 based 100% on sheeping others when you’ve just made multiple statements about how he’s not a good lynch?

Awkward Bus Hop Engage!

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As far as negative utility roles are concerned, I'm against the idea. I have reasons, but I can't as explaining would break a rule.

I think I know where this is coming from and if so I disagree completely. But for the record … is your “breaking rules” related to your recent finished Princess Bride game? If so having a Miller or Ascetic not claim based on that game makes no sense to me.

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4. Yeah, no way. Every game will have, if not a miller, than an ascetic.

This is bad. Given your ranting in the Dead Thread and postgame of Shos’ Mini I think you need to leave set-up spec / analysis to others because you don’t seem very proficient at it.

Page 2: farside's saying "this is something my son watched" leaves me uneasy. It was a "crumb" about her flavor, even though nobody asked for it. I know it doesn't give much at all, but it still leaves me uneasy.

Why in any way, shape or form do you think it is in any way alignment indicative? This isn’t the first time you’ve floated this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI - Hopped on me like page 12 or something. Is not a current vote.

I know he generally dislikes my play though, so not sure if that has any effect on it.

I just voted him on page 28 or so specifically after he claimed to have missed my bad and forth with Cheet on page 13. So it not being a current vote is purely incorrect.

And the bolded makes me confident that he's scum. Because he knows what I Town read him I don't push him and actively try to lynch scum-reads. Like in Inspirational when I lynched scum looking to lynch him. Or in Open 633 where I tried to lynch scum Ranger and specifically said I didn't see any scum motivation in his play. Even after games like Fire and Ice Mafia where he chose to wagon me at deadline with absolutely no reasoning instead of helping hammer the scum counterwagon I had pushed all Day 2.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Additionally, there are a variety of situations that Farside's claim could turn up badly. One that I'm thinking of is a ludicrous claim that she then points back to it and says "see, I was already talking about it from day 1" (I don't know exactly how it would work. I'm quite terrible at lying or figuring out ways in which someone would lie in some made-up, hypothetical situation)

Frankly this is absurd. There is no way you can extrapolate from her claim that she got a character her child watched (which could be HUNDREDS of characters regardless of said child's age) that her comment is some sort of soft-claim. That you can't explain it effectively isn't helping you ... it looks like you are just looking for mudslinging material instead of actually hunting for scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

PPEdit: It might not for you, Ceph, but with the review process, setups are pretty predictable.

You need to stop because you clearly don't know what you are talking about ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@moi dont be an idiot

Saying yoire fencesitting for calling a big fight tvt is awkward snr fencesitting. That is pretty obvious?

Given the second sentence is gibberish I think you should lay off calling anyone else and idiot ...

And given you keep repeating something absolutely false (that I called Cheet v Fox TvT) I'm going to conclude you are probably scum.

Cheers for making my read easier I guess ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also tbh Grib's avatar makes me want to lynch him to get it out of the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dear townies.

This game is already intolerable, and it's only day 1.
Please, for Cheetory, lets purge.

Agreed.

VOTE: Camnt

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also the Snarky wagon dissipating on Nachos cute but irrelevant “Oh, no-one can read him” tale I think will be a great place to start looking for bussers who hopped at the first sign of an easy exit.

@Imperium

– why are you ignoring my question about Tammy’s participation in the hydra?

So Medical Junkies just claimed to be 100% Mod Confirmed Day 2. So that is a self-solving problem and anyone still clinging to a lynch on that slot can be scum.


--

People who "project town" end up dead, mostly. And most endgames are a bunch of lurkertown and a bunch of scumzors, and the games suck and scum win.

Complains about how it is Pro-scum to not “project Town”. Proudly states it is what they are doing.

Lynch away!

w/e. I'm going to bed, but if this wagon builds steam:
We are Clifford, The big Red Dog, and we are Vanilla.

g'night! Lynch us if you want!

A VT claim with like 4 total votes?

More Camnt votes. This needs to happen today.

--

we just went over how they didn't

read

But someone had claimed NU earlier.

If I claim PGO, will everybody stop making noise.

No.

Wait. Was Grib not claiming PGO? I'm really confused.

Based on these quotes color me incredulous that Diamond actually wants us to believe he is confused that Grib isn’t joke-claiming. Because quote 1 says that he saw the initial joke Grib made.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: camntsuki

This is 5 of the required 10.

Come on people let's get this done!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Umm, that first quote was me saying "you can claim it but it honestly won't solve anything". I thought he really was claiming (also, I wanted him to not hint at it anymore because if he was PGO, we *might* get a scum on him)

First you need to learn to cut down quotes ...

Secondly you honestly expect me to believe that you don't understand nuance or context?

Grib had previously asked if the Negative Utility talk was necessary (and for the record it wasn't).
He then posted in a CLEARLY joking manner effectively this "If I claim PGO would you all shut your pieholes".

And later he offhandedly claims PGO again in a joking manner and you didn't read it as such?

[MagnaofIllusion]

im a scum roleblocker and im really happy with a d2 free mislynch.

ugh

yeah i know

Scummy as fuck quote tampering Ceph. 10/10. Would scum read it again.

So what Mod confirmed Role do YOU expect to be able to be fucked with by a Roleblocker. Serious question.

[MagnaofIllusion]

.....do you understand humor?

friendly neighbor

I understand humor. That's not it ....

So you think Mala / Kuroi (I forget which made the claim) is bad enough a player to claim "I'll be confirmed" with a role that can be stopped as opposed to say Innocent Child?

[MagnaofIllusion]

also vig, suicide bomber, activateable innocent child...

Lol Vig is not Mod Confirmed.
Show me one example on MS of an Innocent Child that can be blocked.
Suicide Bomber renders the point of getting a mislynch on them pointless which was the whole crux of your "funny" post.

Try again?

[MagnaofIllusion]

don't quite get how this is true

If they were a Suicide Bomber they'd, you know, activate their ability on their target of choice who they think is scum before being mislynched ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI is literally the worst player to have ever graced this site what a fucking surprise he's voting us

Grib is still scum and needs death this wagon on us is horrendous.

The fact that MOI is voting us should be enough to modconfirm our slot as town.

Fake outrage is boring ...

4 more votes people!

[MagnaofIllusion]

why?

i dont even get the basic premise of the wagon

The premise of the wagon is that Camnt has done no scum-hunting and decided that policy lynching people they don't like is appropriate for Day 1. Then under minimal pressure they threw down as "I'm VT, lynch me if you want" AtE crap post that is pretty much a scum claim.

What don't you get about that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

looking and i still dont think i agree w "no scumhunting"

do you have a specific issue with a specific read?

Let’s look at what you quote for scum-hunting and see where specifically I disagree.

587 you can call scum-hunting if you want … but it is just blandly slapping Town or scum labels randomly on players to my eyes. I mean this sums itself up pretty nicely –

diamondsentinel, grib, and Keyen are all scum and/or intolerable.

but the MOST intolerable?

unvote
VOTE: DiamondSentinel

They are voting Diamond for being “intolerable”. If you think that’s valid scum-hunting well then you don’t disagree with my vote and push on because I find Camnt (especially the Kats portion) intolerable. But beyond that they’ve picked the lowest of the low hanging fruit (Keyen) and Grib who as far as I can tell is some sort of personal beef. I’d challenge you to argue Camnt didn’t just pick three of the biggest contributors to the game in making this “reads list”.

The reasons that follow at 589 are, as I originally commented, pretty weak.

24 pages and Diamond is scum only for the whole page 1-5 hub-bub about Negative Utility roles?
Whatever Camnt is saying about Grib isn’t a scum tell in the least.
And Keyen is basically policy so …

708 has zero scum-hunting. They vote Snarky without a hint of about why. The mudslinging on Grib is fluff. And there’s some buddying to Ceph but that’s not scum hunting either.

711 is further lack of scum-hunting. Again – blandly calling Medical Town with nothing indicating why. Stating they can “get behind” a lynch is fluff.

So basically everything you showed at 1185 isn’t scum-hunting and I question why you’d endeavor to pretend it is even closely related to being such.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m starting to question if Fox’s read on Camnt is colored by personal like for the individual heads or colored by knowing they aren’t a partner so assuming them to be Town …

[MagnaofIllusion]

sometimes people keep reasons close to their chest

Same comment re: Fox applies above as well ... except more likely scum anyway given my previous read on the slot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

they JUST said they didn't have a strong read and didn't think the attacks against them were good.

why don't people understand this is possible?

Where did I say it wasn't possible? But given what I perceive to be a big hole in Fox's stance re: Camnt scum-hunting it would be remiss of me not to consider that other factors might be at play.

Why do you feel the need to defend Fox when they are perfectly capable of defending themselves?

[MagnaofIllusion]

One apparently has some longstanding issues with Katz.

I think you have this turned around.

One of us has posted reasons why we think you are scum (lack of scum-hunting, AtE that both of you are experienced enough not to make under minimal pressure aimed at the current dumb-ass meta on site that AtE is Town).

Your partner rages like a temperamental 12 year old screaming "Eat a Bag of Dicks" and "Worst Player on Site".

I have a problem with your scummy play. Your partner has a problem with me. I'd prefer your slot was lynched today for both reasons.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Moi- You don't have the votes.

I didn't want to blow this so early ... but this begs for it.

Dayvig : Camntsuki

[MagnaofIllusion]

Insert predictable “Unsurprising Counter Wagon to Camnt springs up quickly while no significant counter wagons developed for Snarky … what could it mean?” snarky comment here.

Feeling less good about kdowns after seeing 1302. His content has not picked up despite the early pressure and that post reads to me LAMISTing in leiu of actually scum-hunting. Of course it was a fake Dayvig … when have I ever gotten lucky enough to get that sort of sweet role in my hands where I can use it effectively?

The irony of Bro yelling about spamming of threads being unfun and stupid and proceeding to do just that himself is “10/10, would appreciate irony again” level.

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no

it's based on seeing them be lynchbait before and a good healthy dose of skepticism i've picked up over the pretty long amount of time playing this game.

but i see you're so far up your own ass that you apparently assume disagreement with your BULLETPROOF, SUPER AWESOME, BONER-INDUCING case HAS to be whiteknighting so i guess there goes any chances of having a reasonable conversation w you

Well are reasonable conversastion would involve not flying off the handle but let’s put that aside for the moment. My comment to Ceph (well, that half that didn’t involve telling him to let you fight your own battles anyway) applies to you – do you think it is unreasonable at all for me to look for motivations for play?

i didn't say scumhunting, grib said that.

i said "here's posts where there's reads" b/c that's what ppl USUALLY approximate for "scumhunting"

with what camntsuki's posted i wouldn't suppose to be able to guess if there's any scumhunting going on or not

#sementic gymnastics

Nope. I don’t buy this for a second. Let’s refresh that conversation back and forth we had initially, shall we?

The premise of the wagon is that

Camnt has done no scum-hunting

and decided that policy lynching people they don't like is appropriate for Day 1. Then under minimal pressure they threw down as "I'm VT, lynch me if you want" AtE crap post that is pretty much a scum claim.

no scum-hunting

ohhhhhhhhhhhhkay.....

looking and i still dont think i agree w "no scumhunting"

do you have a specific issue with a specific read?

I’ve taken the liberty of bolding the important parts of the back and forth for ease of reference.

So this chain of conversation let to my 1204 where I specifically laid out that none of the posts you quoted were indicative of scum-hunting. And you’ve never commented on it so I’m not sure where you stand.

But 1218 above where you say “I couldn’t be certain if they were scum-hunting” pretty much disagrees with your “I disagree that they aren’t scum-hunting” post at 1178. The semantic gymnastics you reference are just that and don’t make me think I’m seeing honest assessment of Camnt from you. Thus my comment.

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My cute but irrelevant tale is why I personally am not voting him at this point in time; I've also responded to your case and where I felt it went wrong, so if you're looking to actually talk why you think that Snarky is scum with me, I'd recommend that as a good jumping off point.

I didn't ignore your question about Tammy's participation; if the question is "why hasn't she posted yet?" she hasn't participated yet because she is also sick and starting her new semester next week, and thus her priorities lie there.

Frankly I don’t think there is much to discuss. You basically asserted that no-one was able to read Snarky successfully. And a whole bunch of Null to Scum players took that ball and ran with it. Suffice it to say I disagree with you but the horse is out of the barn and I’m not going to waste time trying to convince you that my opinion holds merit when you’ve clearly made up your mind given the evidence I already laid out.

And yeah – you did ignore it ipso facto when there was not comment 1 made about it. I don’t know fact 1 about Tammy’s off board life and it feels like I was somehow expected to have some psychic power to be able to derive those facts given the lack of response.

If the game's reached a level of toxicity where the game is no longer enjoyable, better to replace out or power lurk, take some time off; no reason to actively push for a lynch that hurts the town.

I’m not sure why you think a claimed VT who isn’t scum-hunting but chronically buddying and keeps waffling between “Oh we want this pain to be over” and “You can’t get me lynched” is a lynch that hurts Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

no it doesn't, theres subtle (but fundamental) differences here

depending on playstyle, scumhunting can be mostly introspective and you won't see the VAST majority of what's going on in someone's head (that's certainly the case w me, i estimate you probably see only a tenth of what i think in this thread in a typical game)

the posts i quoted shows that camn could be thinking about reads. so i don't look at camn's posting and think "i can definitively say they AREN'T scumhunting."

[MagnaofIllusion]

I see your other posts but right now I don't have time to respond in the fullness that is deserved. But this absolutely needs addressed.

but if your question was more "who are you willing to lynch?" my answer is still most of the game.

I don't at all mind BRO's or camntsuki's mindset of thinning down the game a bit before making a more concentrated effort to gamesolve,

but my preferred lynches are more people like Waco or any of the lurkers that both fail to produce or fail to anything that looks vaguely town to latch onto.

Frankly I can't agree that this is good for Town in any way. Especially the bolded. You've been around long enough to know that the first players to go in Large games are competent Town. Your proposal effectively says "Yeh, I don't really want to try to solve the game yet. Let's give scum free reign to kill of the players who might have a clue early" and I don't for a second think Town Nacho would believe this is smart.

In fact it makes me feel that the Waco case you presented earlier is just window dressing for a policy lynch on your part.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Your case on Snarky seems to be that he didn't respond to you saying that you could read him successfully.
I don't think this is a significant case based on Snarky's lack of reading comprehension which he demonstrated quite soundly in Near Vanilla.
Do you have a rebuttal to that?

You’ve simplified the case that’s for sure. I’ll leave sorting why you did that for later.

The case on Snarky starts with 64. That post is that I feel comes from Town Snarky on page 3 of a game. You can disagree with me but I’m fairly confident in my assessment. He’s quantifying that he has preferred wagons (aka players he thinks are scum) based on 60ish posts into the game. That in itself should be a warning sign.

The second portion you mentioned above – my comment about my feel of Snarky as scum led to a back and forth with Cheet where he asked me to show my Snarky reading credentials. Snarky’s play around this I think has strong scum motivations. At that point despite me saying I thought he could be scum I had my vote on another candidate in Diamond. Scum Snarky poking at my assessment in any way ran the risk of me following through on my gut read and move to wagon him. Town Snarky on the other hand I can see saying something to the effect of “MoI you’ve always read me as Town correctly as you pointed out what is different here?”. Hell he might even get a scum read of me for it if he was Town. And yes I’ve seen your “Snarky doesn’t pay attention” comment that I disagree with. In Open 633 it certainly wasn’t a case that he wasn’t reading that got him lynched. It was that he chose to scum read Radiant and poked Radiant’s fragile ego. And in none of the other Town games I’ve had with Snarky has there ever been any sort of “Oops, I’m behind” excuse from him. He simply doesn’t address it.

The third portion is his reaction to the wagon – he immediately plays the “I’m Low Hanging Fruit” card. Again from our shared experience in Open 633 he didn’t use play that card. He stuck to his guns on scum-reading Radiant and only mentioned that he gets lynched to confirm what other players said about him.

Lastly (and this has not been explicitly explained in thread by me before) – this game he shows no signs of having actual reads. Open 633 once again highlights this – he drew a read on Radiant and pushed it. He also (incorrectly) pushed reads on yourself, Oceanwind and Bellaphant as scum. Here he’s popping in to stay active but has no drive to his posts. He’s basically actively lurking after he got early pressure.

So yes, there’s your rebuttal.

I also find it interesting that you’ve expressed as desire to get rid of non-performing slots and specifically don’t want to get rid of slots that “might improve” given that you have actively fought against Snarky as being a good lynch. Because of all the players in the game he certainly fits the definition of players who don’t carry their own weight and there is no historic expectation that it will change as days go on. Inspirational Mafia is an example – he was a Town Rolestopper who didn’t Rolestop protect a claimed Neopolitan and once the Neopolitan was Nightkilled and flipped Town didn’t Rolestop protect the confirmed Vanilla Town player the Neopolitan had cleared.

And yet Snarky isn’t anywhere to be seen on your radar. I have issues with the discontinuity in your posting and stated motivation and subsequent play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why is claiming VT early scummy? Because it is bad.
Why is chronically buddying scummy? Because it is bad.
Why is the vacillating between "we want this pain to be over" and "you can't get me lynched" scummy? Because it is bad.

And the question that drives right at the heart of this response is – do you honestly suggest that either of the Camnt heads isn’t veteran enough to play in a not-bad manner? Bad play from players who are absolutely capable of better is a much stronger scum-tell then from Vis or Newbs.

Camntsuki certainly hasn't been breaking the door down with advanced reads and reasoning, but it's not like they are gleefully doing nothing at all, and it's not like I expect either head struggles horribly with giving reads + reasoning as scum so that in and of itself isn't a red flag for me.

I don't really see scum motivation in the early VT claim; you can say that they're appealing to AtE meta or whatever but this is well within their townrange and the obvious risk of drawing the hate of most players in the game doesn't really seem to outweigh the reward of appealing to the me/BRO/Cephrir/Fox group of players.

The buddying that they've done doesn't surprise me and is an expectation regardless of alignment. They buddy a lot.

The contradiction between "we want this pain to be over" and "you don't have the votes" also doesn't really bother me at all; in the same vein, I'm not really bothered by people who say they're giving up in thread and keep fighting. Sometimes you're annoyed with the game and you want to die, sometimes you're annoyed with a player and you talk shit to them.

And no, I don't really expect you to agree with these viewpoints,

but I think you know me well enough by now to know that I'm not following onto a lynch just because the person in question is playing antitown.

You are right – I don’t agree with you on these viewpoints.

And the bolded is interesting because in my mind that is just exactly what you are asking people do with your Waco push. Objectively Waco’s ISO is more Town than Camnt’s to my eye.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm ignoring the rest of bro post till another day.

Given Bro is just basically being a jackass and hiding behind the "Oh woe is me my emotions are valid where is my Safe Space" card I think this a very reasonable course of action.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh where has hiplop gone? Decided that going back to lurking is harder than pretending to be Town and hoping I will not call him out again?


--

He and Tammy look as good as ever, and I don't want to scumread them on just paranoia.

Well given that Tammy hasn’t made a single post this game I’ll just file this under further cross defending between Imperium and yourself.

--

My point is that most of your attempts to engage with camntsuki are in reality slinging shit at them; the one fair question they answered but things like "you're making it impossible to read you!" aren't going to get a productive response from anyone 99% of the time and "your catchup gives us nothing" is not exactly the start to a beautiful mutually beneficial relationship.

You supposed distain for shit-slinging peaks my interest given that you aren’t knocking either Camnt or Bro who personify that particular brand of posting.

Can't answer this question without you telling us your show.

What is the point of this response to Firebringer given he specifically went out of his way to say “This is for the Mod” other than to look like you are interacting with the slot?

--

There's some cog dis between 1358 and 1359 If your read changed why didn't you unvote right there? why did you even vote them in the first place at the end of the previous post? I have a hard time at seeing how your thought process changed your read between those 2 posts, in addition 1361 feels like a cop out =/ considering i've been having the opposite problem (too few ppl feel like obvtown)

-Luna

So you are knocking Keyen here for showing Cognitive Dissonance in voting / not properly unvoting your claimed scum read.

So what is the take-away we should be seeing – that he’s making an awkward bus and then retracted it in a way that isn’t Town? I’d like you to be explicit so if Waco flips Town you don’t shift your argument to “Keyen is scum who voted Town for bad reasons”.

Uh guys, how are we supposed to lynch scum if you keep forming counter wagons u.u

-Luna

Didn’t your slot just get done stating that counterwagons mean lots of things and very few of them automatically show the top wagon is Town?

That’s right your slot did – 1373

So it’s Town of you to push your wagon of choice using that logic but your partner was sure quick to dismiss it when it was on Camnt …

--

Not all of us are sociopathic logicbots like you. So kindly shut the fuck up.

You've shown 0 empathy throughout this game.

Literally.

None.

Yup to level of unwarranted self-righteousness on display here is off the charts …

[MagnaofIllusion]

??? They are voting Waco because they believe he's scum and have explained why, what are you talking about.

"Objectively...to my eye" is pretty great sentence construction.

[MagnaofIllusion]

great productive interaction, thanks for trying to help me see your point of view!

man, i thought you were well known for making really good cases and making a lot of sense and that's not what i'm seeing from you here at all

I'm bringing my level interaction to yours, or at least my perception of yours. Let's be franl - your modus operandi seems to be to drop into the thread and be difficult while making sarcastic comments. I don't think I'm wrong given your more or less admitted it to Grib earlier.

I appreciate you ignore the well thought out and framed case I made on Snarky in my response to Imperium above. And if you don't think I'm making sense ... well ... that's not something I can control can I?

Question to you though - why is the burden on me to be the articulate one when you clearly don't feel that burden yourself? You've several times gone "whelp, I can't really explain it but I believe X" when questioned about things.

[MagnaofIllusion]

..did she say anything about the wagons making waco (or anyone else) more/less likely to be scum...?

no, she didn't. she essentially said "everyone stop being bitches and unvoting waco"

If you want to play the semantics game again great but don't pretend your partner didn't just invoke "why are we forming counter-wagons to this scum read of mine" when you claimed that me doing the same (complaining about a forming counter-wagon to my scum read Campt) was invalid.

It's at best disingenuous.

[MagnaofIllusion]

are you naturally this pedantic or do you have to work at it?

I'm sorry that examining your slot's play you find "pedantic". The fact remains that I find Cognitive Dissonance to be a sign of scum motivated play. Always have. And despite you being a hydra the fact that your partner is happy to use the exact same style of argument to push a wagon that you dismissed when someone else used it to push a wagon doesn't sit well with me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

nuance is inexplicably lost on you

Nah.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Moi: would you humor me and just tell me if what I said about bro makes sense or not.

I’ll look through your case and give you some feedback in a bit.

--

at least when i disagree with someone you can usually tell why i disagree with them -- you're handwaving imperium's push and i don't understand what your reasoning is for doing so

Is this the part where I say “I have a gut read that Waco isn’t scum that I can’t fully explain”?

Yes that’s a little snarky. But I think it is in line with the tone of the thread, especially a large number of posts I’ve had to deal with.

My problem with Imperium’s Waco case is basically Imperium – I’m having a hard time getting a Town read on Nacho’s posting and thought process. I could go through his case right now and lay out why I don’t see the points he made as compelling but I’m just going to say that I didn’t buy into it when I first read it and leave it at that. After all giving 100% of my thoughts to the thread isn’t an exercise I’m going to engage in when there are many other examples of players keeping their reasoning “close to the vest”. The Waco push looks very much to me like a “designated fall guy” push from Imperium not an honest scum-hunting effort.

Can I be wrong. Sure, maybe. I’m guessing we will know very soon.

--

for example, if you look at the ppl NOT kneejerk scumreading camn (me, ceph, nacho, bro) you'll maybe gather ppl who've played w them before (and have a better baseline for reading them). a perceptive player may think "maybe my framework for reading them is wrong."

but you keep plunking along pushing this myopic "how is this helping town?"

If you want to portray my suspicion of Camnt as “knee jerk” then we definitely don’t have much common ground to discuss. The read is hardly “knee jerk”.

Have you ever been fooled by Camt or the individual heads? This is basically the same questions that Cheet asked me regarding my Snarky read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Snarky

After I do the look-up I promised to Farside I'm probably going to take my leave of the thread for awhile. Too much crap behavior being excused and incentivized for my liking.

(that was them, right? I remember there was a fakevig and I remember the reaction, but I couldn't remember if it was at them or at someone else)

Yes, it was Camnt.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Daily reminder that MOI should go drown himself.

[MagnaofIllusion]

lord spare me you doing that again, lol.

are you scum hoping to rally the people who don't like me

Wait ... this is the slot you participated in downplaying my scum read on for a not-insignificant amount of time.

And he looks at you sideways after replacing in and suddenly that slot is now possible scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

*shrug*

maybe maybe not

wasnt really thinking about who he replaced

[MagnaofIllusion]

68 pages ;_;

Thank all the people who say "Large walls are anti-Town" and proceed to put what could be easily summarized in a single post in a string of 5 to 15 posts thus artificially inflating the page count which is hella Anti-Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Imperium continues to fall in what I would call a soft-scum read. What he’s doing looks on the surface to be Town but there are hints that he’s not actually forming reads and following the game as an uniformed Town player should For example 1666 where he admits that he missed the context of Diamond’s jokey post about a wagon not having resistence that he earlier used as a point against Diamond. Here’s the original post by Diamond – 861 – it comes right on the heels of Fox’s commentary and the context is pretty clear. I get the sense that Nacho ISOd Diamond to find things he could present as suspect as opposed to actually read and decide that Diamond is scummy.

I also think Fox’s 1693 is scummy since OMGUS isn’t a scum-tell. And the response to Waco at 1704 is also scummy – Fox doesn’t bother to follow up on Waco’s statement which would is trivially easy and might disprove his statement and just moves on to “Static Reads are scummy” which is also crap and not a scum tell. If Fox was honestly thought Waco was scum they’d have gone right to his ISO to see if they could find more evidence of “manufactured reads”. And ProjectMatt used that exact same “unchanging reads are scummy” against me as Town in a recent game so it is on my radar of “Fake Scum-tells Scum like to float” –

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66176

I still stand by claim that he's coasted very heavily on his initial opening reads. When I play mafia, my reads constantly develop and change, but his have stayed the same with the utmost confidence from his first post, which I find concerning.

It's not just your top scum reads not changing - it's none of your reads at all changing throughout the game, and furthermore me seeing no real attempts from you to get them changed.

Also amazing that Fox has no other scum-reads to push and pushes that 5 days ( 1746 ) isn’t enough time to get a wagon on another scum suspect going.

--

I don't like MoI either. He can't keep track of who replaces who.

Hey Kuroi I’m very curious where you think that happened. Why don’t you point me there.

--

can two more ppl plz vote waco tia

Vote will return if Waco doesn't deliver.

zzz

waco or snarky that is all

The Waco lynch isn’t happening today especially given the make-up of who fueled it.

--

I didn't understand why he moved from the camntsuki wagon from the Snarky wagon when he was pushing that he did know how to read Snarky well and he did legitimately feel that Snarky was scum while the camntsuki push looked more like this:

Do you find it unreasonable to have and push on multiple scum reads in a game Nacho?

--

I think you're townreading MOI for being MOI.

He writes a lot of words but I think those words kind of suck

Far better for allowing the rest of Town to get a read on me than posting very few words and those words kind of sucking …

--

If their first move in the game was to transparently push a policy lynch then theyre probably town

But what motivation is there for scum to go from zero to openly pushing for a policy lynch and on day one no less?

Oh I don’t know – the fact that making a lynch on policy is a perfect way to defuse any potential blowback when the player flips Town. Scum says something like “Whelp, they shouldn’t have been so bad and I wouldn’t have to have policy lynched”.

I’d like you to explain the Town motivation for the Camnt’s first reads post on PAGE 24 being containing 2 policy lynches and a bite at Low Hanging Fruit in Keyen. Go!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod - I'll be V/LA from basically 4 hours ago until Tuesday morning.

Not that I expect I'm going to miss much ...

every once in a while i worry that i'm being taken for a ride by some sort of axis of evil composed of the people who actually make sense

Well given you aren't listening to any of those people anyway I'd say your worries are overblown ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Farside

- sorry that work has intervened ... I didn't get a chance to write up my thoughts on your case in full.

Short Summary - I don't think you are offbase in thinking Bro is scummy ... while the your case re Selective Post Farming isn't super strong normally there is plenty else there to go along with it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Hiplop

Happy to start here. My lynch interests lie in approximately descending:

Hiplop – Spiffeh – Snarky – Bro

Hiplop was happy to skate by hiding in his cozy friends group yesterday. No scum-hunting from the slot. His reaction to be called out by me early was not Town.

Spiffeh – These posts should be self-explanatory

Imperium or Fox McCloud (or both) need to be doc-protected tonight, ESPECIALLY if Waco flips scum

They're the only ones keeping town afloat atm

VOTE: Waco Kid

This is absolutely the best lynch for today.

Everything Imperium said about him earlier is spot on.

The complete confidence in the Fox scum read comes out of nowhere; there are a few points in his ISO where he seems to be a little suspicious of them but his "case" on them is obviously reactionary to the wagon on him.

It looks like he realized he's in deep shit and forced a strong opinion to get the heat off him.

And despite this confidence in scum!Fox and taking issue with almost every post they have made since then, his vote has been parked on the most plausible counterwagon option (my slot).

So yeah this can die

Snarky – I’ve already said why he needs to die and Imperium’s strong defense of him adds to that stance.

Bro – More interested in being a jerk and talking about drag queens than hunting scum. Did nothing to fight against the lynch on his so called Top Town read instead just buddied along.

[MagnaofIllusion]

wow seriously good shot

must have been a serial killer?

Also this is not a Town post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Interesting.

VOTE: keyenpeydee

(Hiplop dies later. keyen gets rope right now)

Interesting. VOTE: keyenpeydee(Hiplop dies later. keyen gets rope right now)

Not unless you are claiming Night actions he doesn't.

Key can be lynched at any time. hiplop is like that frustrating mold that takes tons of work to clear out. Just look at Firebringer's recent Legends of the Hidden Speakeasy. We need as many not-scum alive as possible to take care of this mold infestation. The longer he lingers the more effective his partners will be in keeping him alive.

[MagnaofIllusion]

How about this. Both of us leave our mostly naked votes, and see which one the rest of the town likes best.

Nope. I gave in to letting Town and scum come together for a god-awful mislynch yesterday behind the leadership of Imperiuym and I'm done letting Town be led around blindly.

Why were you so eager to hammer a player who was obviously Town yesterday BTW?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll sleep now. I'll keep my RVS until tomorrow lol

Are you trying to get lynched?

[MagnaofIllusion]

that's a very fortunate SK shot imo

or one of the crazy people is the vig

also i don't know how i'm going to retain my sanity without fox

[MagnaofIllusion]

or at least, i guess i probably know what you're getting at re: spiffeh but I think it's kind of weak

Meh you said my reasons for not scum-reading Waco and scum reading Imperium yesterday were weak so I'm not sure why you think downing my thought process would work better to build rapport with me today than it did yesterday given how to lynch and Night worked out ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't think they're self-explanatory. Care to hold my hand?

But to elaborate instead of being completely snarky -

I've already been over my Camnt's scum read. The fact that main person debating me on that was Imperium scum doesn't dissuade me from thinking it has merit.

Spiffeh's entrance into the game was not very good.

He gets demerits for trying to direct power-roles multiple times (trying to get protective roles to protect Imperium and trying to dissuade anyone from shooting Imperium if a Vig). In fact his "Snarky MUST be shot" post is one of the reasons I'm not trying to power-lynch Snarky today. If Spiffeh just had terrible reads and played bad yesterday as Town I'll revisit at a later date.

The Waco push I quoted was god awful. Waco wasn't scummy to begin with and had claimed a provable role that, despite the possibility of a scum Fruit Vendor, warranted testing at least Night 1 at the very least. Spiffeh cobbled together some crap that happened to coincide on the dominant wagon and helped finish the mislynch that scum Imperium started.

If you don't think this is worth serious consideration then I don't know what to tell you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can people please retire ride or die townreads

Lost too kany games from people doing that shit

I don't know what is more appropriate to say here ...

1. That this is a pretty clear case of scum-plaining, or

2. That this is ironic coming from the player who wanted to build a Town-block Day 1.

I mean, take your pick.

Then vote him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Medical Junkies also has some explaining to do.

Yup. This.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What is your issue with the posts you quoted?

I thought Imperium was town

I thought Waco was scum

Unfortunately (or fortunately now that Imperium is dead) neither was the case

Already explained. Perhaps you should read the thread.

Is your stance that your bad reads Day 1 are not a reason to scum read your slot?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I had an interesting night....

VOTE: Spiffeh

Well you are basically claiming a Night action and Spiffeh is already my second most wanted lynch today ...

VOTE: Spiffeh

[MagnaofIllusion]

Firebringer do you have something you'd like to share?

Because if you're implying that I performed an action last night that is fucking bullshit

And I'm getting quicklynched for whatever you're implying

So spit it out

How about you claim first then and let the people who thought you were scummy as fuck anyway BEFORE the not-so-soft "guilty" claim decide whether it is worth Fire actually doing any claiming?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's objectively more powerful than IC, as it forces the scum to try to go in a 1v1 with town (if they lie) or to reveal a confirmed townie, if they happen to be chosen.

Also, if scum want to stop it, then it forces them to waste a kill/roleblock on a less-than-favorable slot.

IC is much more powerful than Friendly Neighbor.

As I said Day 1 - stop the pointless role rambling.

[MagnaofIllusion]

OK GUYS I WILL BE FLIPPING TOWN SO

FIREBRINGER NEEDS TO EXPLAIN THE EXACT NATURE OF HIS GUILTY ON ME NOW SO HE CAN'T WEASEL HIS WAY OUT OF IT TOMORROW IF HE'S SCUM

If you flip Town he gets lynched tomorrow for lying about a guilty.

Why are you not claiming again?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well it was worth a shot that in the moment he'd get creative and do something else ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is stupid

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is it possible for bastard elements to be present in this game?

Nope.

Is it possible your game has any of the following: cults, mid-game alignment changes, moderator lies that cannot be reasonably anticipated (for example, Godfather, Tailor, Miller, Ninja, and mechanics like that are generally fine. Telling someone they are a reflexive doctor when they're actually a PGO is not), secret win conditions, un-divulged non-randomness in player role/alignment generation, direct moderator influence during the game? (Yes/No) - No

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do different sanities for cops count as bastard?

Or framers?

Nope.

Neither also precludes you being the lynch today on the off chance they might be in the game given your and your predecessor's play.

I'm not going to not follow a claimed Guilty for "What If"?

Now if Firebringer retracts his guilty the issue is moot. But until that point there is no reason to let you hang around.

[MagnaofIllusion]

WHat is off to me about spiffeh here is that his tone looks town, but then he posts stuff fake like he knows what I would do as scum or town.
He did that exact same thing Power as scum. He pretended he knew how I operate and it was fake as fuck, and I called him out on the fake read then.

Ok Firebringer this is the official line in the sand.

If this is some derr-herr gambit you think makes sense you have exactly 1 post from this point to back away from your claimed guilty. Because otherwise I will assume that you are not gambitting and this is a for real guilty forever more with no chance of a take-back on your part.

I still followed Poker Mafia after I replaced out and I hope you learned from that game how absolutely stupid fake-claiming is.

[MagnaofIllusion]

i did lots yesterday

i hard defended nacho remember

Since Firebringer has revoked his guilty on Spiffeh I'm going back to my main scum read.

VOTE: Hiplop

the above is classic scum taunting posting.

And Spiffeh is not a Town read for me based on Firebringer's derpness. In fact I see a scenario where they are partners who decided to "rehabilitate" Spiffeh's slot based on a fake guilty and his "Townie" reaction to it. Firebringer flips scum and Spiffeh should be roped ASAP.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, we've got far too many pairs that would be scum together. Likely only 1 (if any) can actually be scum. So, instead of continuing to throw out more possibilities, let's start whittling down on the ones we have.

I'm sorry that I spoke my mind ...

Ok I'm really not.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah Keyen has passed the point where his “Imma Lost Newbie” routine is tolerable.

Kdowns makes his way onto my scum-reads for 2043 and subsequent follow-ups. His reasons for doubting the Spiffeh guilty came before Firebringer made the post that signaled it for me. The fact that DS is getting so much heat for doubting Firebringer when his strong doubt came after 2056 while Kdowns is getting little and his doubt came before tells me that the DS lynch is probably bad.

Bro also moves up the lynch list to above Spiffeh. Farside’s point in 2090 regardling the complete lack of interaction is valid. In fact given Bro had a claimed Townread on Waco early on the fact that he didn’t challenge Imperium at all is suspect. And re-reading Bro’s list at 1443 contains the following from my point of view – 3 Townreads (Grib, Farside, Trans), 2 soft targets (Key and kraska) and a sorta suggestion on the one player I read as scum (Snarky). So that bumps him up the list as well. And 2125 is pretty bad. Is “broad trends” some new hip buzzword because seeing it used in that post my read is that it is fluff gibberish.

--

VOTE: ds

behind

vla may be a bit longer than expected. internet is fucked here

This however absolutely needs more votes. Literally a scum-hop onto a wagon because it has legs.

--

{}
{BROseidon, Spiffeh, Transcend, Firebringer, kraska, kdowns}
{DS, farside, Grib, hiplop, keyen, MOI}
{}
{Snarky}

Based on this reads list I’d support a Ceph wagon if I could not get traction on my strong scum reads being lynched (hiplop, Bro, Kdowns)

--

Ok, I would like everyone to flavorclaim. That would be optimal.

Nah. If you don’t understand why it is a dumb idea just chalk that up as another thing that you don’t get like why Friendly Neighbor is much weaker than Innocent Child.

--

In all seriousness if you know Fb has fake claim before, why are you following?

I think I had made it clear that Spiffeh was my number 2 lynch choice before Fire’s made his fake-guilty. Was I not clear on that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm sorry you don't like my read list

It's just a read list though...

You can feel sorry if you want. I'm really not into shaming you.

I just don't see kdowns and Bro being in your top Townish reads as viable. I know you don't give two shits about my reads but meh ... there we are.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Other people suggested we flavor claim yesterday, and nobody said anything about it.

Hey I don't remember that. Quote / link them please.

The fact that no-one really pushed seriously Day 1 for one should tell you it is a generally bad idea though.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lmao stop this shit
are u going to do anything useful this game?

Along those lines - at least he has a readable list of who he thinks is Town and scum. Even if it makes little sense.

Besides Bro who do you think are scum Kraska and why?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well the last few pages are another sign that Diamond Sentinel is probably Town. There is no momentum from anyone to actually do anything. Just mostly spam and non-relevenant to scum-hunting content. Surprise surprise … scum probably feel they are in a comfy position and don’t feel like they have to even pretend they are trying to solve the game.

I mean look at hiplop’s ISO and tell me that Town much less Town who played well enough in a game working with other Town to earn a “Best Town Performance” banner.

But no-one seems to be willing to join me on hiplop and Bro is a perfectly cromulent lynch that has some momentum.

VOTE: Bro

--

Ok, nevermind. I can't find it, and I guess I just had some deja vu. I have that crap all the time. So I dunno.

So we are back to the position where if you want people to take your suggestion seriously you need to provide a compelling reason why we should mass flavor claim. Given your VT claim I doubt you have one.

--

What part of "not appearing in this reads list" sounds like "scum" to you

Nope nope nope.

Either you think that MJ is confirmed Town via Bro’s vouching for him or you think Bro is lying about it and scum. That’s the only way you can’t get to a Town read on MJ.

Yet Bro sits in your Town tier and MJ is “not on the list” for reasons that can’t possibly be sane.

So what is your stance on MJ again?

ordinarily i would say unfortunately but this game im much happier i can at least feel self righteous.

Lol. That’s so funny.

--

Don't know how Diamond is leaning town or I am null for you.

What exactly do you think you’ve done that would that would make anyone think you are Town Fire? Voted for an obviously poor lynch on Town Day 1? Pulled at stupid fake-guilty play Day 2?

--

This game is morons idk why we try

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI Flavor gives information.

Scum don't need information right now. Town does. Ergo, it's in our best interest to claim flavor.

Additionally, since we have no credible night action claims, then I would personally prefer to get information in the form of flavor.

Town has plenty of information. Imperium's flip is a goldmine. This has been discussed to death already today.

If your reasoning is "Dayhunting is hard" then don't expect anyone who doesn't think like you do (aka most players) to support it.

But enlighten me - had you gotten a Clifford the Big Red Dog claim out of Spiffeh / Camt without the VT claim what info would that have told you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

obviously no one can understand this.

yes, they're town, because they have to be. i don't know why no one can read my posts clearly enough to notice this very obvious thing

Well first the don't have to be. It could be a gambit. But that aside if they "have to be Town" why not bother to include them in your list in whatever slot is Town? The whole "Mr. Not Appearing in This List" thing makes little sense to those looking for a logic thought process from you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why aren't we lynching this holy fuck.

Because being bad is not alignment indicative. Duh.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is who you want to lynch in {DS, farside, grib, keyen, MoI}

Because that's my list at this point, although MoI is to get his bullshit out of the game more than actually thinking he's scum.

And this illustrates why you need rope.

Grib and Farside are most probably Town.
I've yet to see anything out of you in the way of a case to support either DS or Key from you.

And you are by far the most toxic presence left in the game after Katsuki was replaced. So if anyone needs to go simply to improve the quality of the thread it is you.

So you lynch list is bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

From my POV he's quite the opposite of a utility lynch. He's a real player who can actually be read, who I can understand, and who is providing me with morale.

This falls under the category of "Your morale means little to me since he's scummy as fuck and toxic".

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I’ll lay out a Bro case for everyone to see to encourage them to do the correct thing and lynch him.

First off take a look at it yourself. It is filled to the brim with fluff posting and not much scum-hunting.
And what scum hunting is presented has either been proven incorrect from Bro’s perspective (Mala lurks as scum from 888 for example).

Also take a close look at 1940 – very scummy attempt to use an existing list from Fox as support which feels very, very pre-planned.

Back in the day, it seemed like I could nail nacho as scum EVERY TIME.
But since I came back, he is a mystery. Maybe it's me, but I think he just got crazy good.

It's you

Oh, so Nacho is easy to read as scum? Odd that Imperium was never once on Bro’s radar then. Especially given Nacho was the architect of the wagon on Bro’s supposed Town read in Waco.
Speaking of which …

I come back after 24 hours and there's wagons on two of my town reads?

Ugh I hate you all. Time to actually read shit.

Funny that Waco is a Town read for Bro given that Bro NEVER mentioned them at all before this very post in his ISO. It’s a fun game. Do a search through Bro’s ISO for Waco and see how many hints you get. Hint – it is less than 10 and not direct interactions with Waco at all.

tbh my case against jumping on Waco is ~just not feeling it~, but camntsuki are super obviously town, so...

I'mma sit on my vanity wagon and wait for you guys to see the light.

And here’s the most detailed explanation of why Waco is Town that you will find in Bro’s posting history. Not very convincing. More indicative that he know Waco was Town because they aren’t partners.

Next we get …

Waco is a town read?
I can understand ~

not feeling it

~, but a townread seems like something that should be a bit more tangible.

My gut on his first few posts was "seems pretty town." Not very strong, but I'd rather go like 5 different places today.

This reads as scum interacting with each other. Nacho, who has a “case” on Waco just questions Bro on why Waco is a Town read. And Bro gives a pat, empty answer. No pressure from either side to move positions. No significant followup on either side. Just light interaction to make a few links with no depth to it.

And Bro goes out of his way to defend Imperium when I called his “Utility Lynch” idea bad via discrediting in 1450.

Omg Spiffeh maybe we can be friends for once (re: your farside read)

VOTE: Waco let's just end this stupid day

And here is the hop on the mislynch wagon. No interactions or comments about Waco in his ISO – just hopping on to “end the Day” which is a scummy transition.

MJ are confirmed town.

Scum also probably don't have a roleblocker, but that's just spec based on MJ's ability actually going through on me.

Hey remember when Bro called Diamond scummy for “knowing there was no Roleblocker” yet this post which greatly pre-dates it is the exact same thought process from Bro.

Cognitive Dissonance at work in full effect. That’s scummy for those of you who don’t know …

Hey hiplop I'm trying to read this game and it's reminding me of why I hate mafia, so I have 2 questions:

1) Are you town?
2) Who should I vote for?

This is here mostly to show that if Bro flips scum Hiplop despite being scummy as heck probably isn’t. I don’t see scum buddying up to a partner so obviously.

The overt buddying done to Camnt also makes me think that Spiff is probably just bad Town if Bro flips scum. See 1319 as an example.

Summary for Those Who Think “Reading is Hard” – ISO dominated by fluff and fake-rage as opposed to trying to solve the game, interactions with Nacho that look like partners laying down soft links, strong buddying to players for self-defense purposes, scummy reasoning for voting mislynch Waco.

Vote away!

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't think you not agreeing with someone's reads is a great reason to lynch them. I'm not in love with that list either, but I recognize that the town isn't a hive mind (to be fair there's no lynch I *would* be in love with, I'm pretty short on actual suspects)

What happened to Snarky for you then? Given he’s more or less disappeared from the thread to watch the louder players snipe at each other I’d think if you thought he was scum before your read would not have changed.

--

Nacho is as addicted to bussing as I am to things I probably shouldn't mention in a mafia game.

And yet the only non-RVS, non-known Town (at least to you) player he voted Day1 was Snarky. Yet Snarky is nowhere near your radar / lynch list ...

Like, I'm probably going to get lynched with 2 scum on my wagon today.

I'll flip town. People will STILL somehow call MJ scum because this game is literally that full of stupid.

MJ will get mislynched and flip friendly neighbor.

Fluff AtE given this would never happen.

--

First: it would have told me that they thought that the VT role was less expected. I.e. That they would think that other things could be expected from that claim.
Second: it would have given me more information for what to expect from other flavors, because Clifford and Kim Possible are 2 very different shows.

For those who look, there is always information hidden in the flavor. It can catch a fakeclaim, if you can pick up on subtle clues.

I can’t parse the first part.

The Vote-Counts should have clued you in that there was a wide-variety of flavors possible in this game so that point is out.

And on the third – why would scum need fake-claims given Imperium’s flip? Barney the Dinosaur is a very well known kids show character. Not unexpected at all. I have serious doubts you would have identified Barney as scum just on flavor alone.

Y'know, I really really like a hiplop wagon right about now.

That's a very good decision.

VOTE: hiplop

Why does this vote appear the second after I move off hiplop?

[MagnaofIllusion]

i dont want to give commentary on that whole case as it's not really my job, but i will say I don't think 1940 is scummy and I don't think fluff is scummy.

pedit: o hai

I'm shocked by both these ... I never would have guessed ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

PEdit: GOD I REALLY WISH I HAD A VIG! THIS IS HAIR-TEARINGLY AWFUL

I mean you do have a nightkill which is sort of like a vig except for scum?

If I were a vig I would probably shoot you for the sake of my sanity, tbf.

This literally writes itself ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lol everyone is so salty it's kinda funny
Also good that keyen is getting replaced

So lo and behold a wagon that you kept dropping annoying large red text claiming you wanted appears ...

and you say nothing about it.

Why is that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've yet to even see a decent case on me. Spiff you're town in my eyes, so stop trying to ruin that for me right now.
Are we just going to drop FB's fake guilty attempt on Spiff also?

VOTE: Kdowns

[MagnaofIllusion]

kdowns is the definition of lynchbait my friend

same thing with snarkysnowman, imo but not as much.

pedit: no moi. no.

You are voting for DS who I think is a mislynch. Will you vote Bro or Hiplop?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not a ton of time right now.

kdowns continues to have exactly 1 scum read and isn't making any progress at all towards actually developing others. Lynch him since with a VT claim that is absolutely scummy as hell.

Bro and hiplop also quality wagons if for some reason kdowns is to escape.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Irrelevant

If a viable wagon builds here consider me on board in a hot second ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So another day has gone by and still absolutely no reads on content from kdowns. Not surprising as lurking out when you have a strong wagon with a viable competing wagon is scum play allowed in the current site meta.

Gamma can be in my ‘sorta Town’ pool preliminarily. While I don’t necessarily agree with all his conclusions his approach shows he’s attempting to process the game.

Cephir or Bro would be a great shots tonight.

--

I reread hippo he seems fine

I've decided fb was unduly slash uncharacteristically worried about spiff actually going to a lynch and suspect he's trying to coast on that play

Also he's done nothing town and there's a very small pool of people I can say that about

Yeah there is a huge disconnect in your thoughts between these posts …

My problem here is that nearly everyone looks sort of town

I wonder if I'm sleeping on grib

Still no hippy sry

well i basically have no townreads on that wagon so...

why does everyone think i'm scum :/

So everyone looks sorta Town but you can’t find a single Town reads on whatever wagon you are talking about?

Yeah, you are scum who is just happy to coast along making up crap aren’t you?

--

maybe MoI as well not feeling confident about him!town anymore.

Do you mean Spiffeh?

--

BROseidon vouched for me. I'm personally considering him town until I consider him otherwise.
He's not getting lynched today.

The lack of depth of understanding in this post is why I can’t take you seriously Kuroi.

--

Why

Nacho would bus ds every single day of the week

And this is why hiplop is scum. He’s throwing out some fluff to dismiss why DS is scum when it makes no sense in relation to how Day 1 actually progressed.

If Nacho was going to bus DS he would not have pushed DS so weakly if he was bussing. He would have pushed DS for much more credit than he would have gotten.

Again – this is scum. The fact that he has no read on Kdowns is an added bonus.

[MagnaofIllusion]

literally how the fuck is that true

Half of your FB case is that he hasn't done anything Town and you claim that is a small pool of players.

Yet you are Town-reading hiplop and there is not a single thing Town in his ISO.

I mean you can disagree (and will I am sure) ...

Also your "I change my mind all the time" means you expect to never be held accountable for any position you take. Which is terrible.

Self-meta on being more careful as scum also is pretty damn useless. Just saying ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

it's pretty disingenuous of you to say there's a disconnect between my two posts there when you're actually just disagreeing with my opinion

Well why don't you point me to posts in hiplop's ISO that show Town. I'd be very curious to see what you thought those post are.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI- Do you have any particularly strong town reads? Also your reason for finding me town seems dumb. Pretty sure I'd still be putting effort into going through everything and bugging people here no matter what my alignment.

Yes. They've been stated before - Farside and Grib.

And you aren't a Town read. You are a sorta-Town read which means I don't see the need to push you at the moment given your very limited posts so far and the fact that Keyen was a hot, unreadable mess.

[MagnaofIllusion]

not one of these posts was made by someone who doesnt want to make enemies and is worried about how they'll be percieved

Which is, you know, not alignment indicative at all but we'll just disagree. Especially after seeing how abrasive hiplop could be as scum in Hidden Speakeasy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

why is grib a strong townread? he doesnt seem to be doing anything

Day 1. Go back and read it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also this constant circling back to a hiplop push feels the most like the scum-designated mislynch of the day, and I'm pretty happy that it's going nowhere.

Lol this is so funny ...

The scum designated mislynch is the wagon you are pushing ... but you know that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Farside I'm sorry to see you go ... you were one of my few touchstones of reasonableness in this game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - I'll be V/LA from now until Monday morning for my usual family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Kdowns wagon stalling cause he is scum .

[MagnaofIllusion]

kdown's slot needs to die.

As does hiplop.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA …

The amount of replace outs in this game is embarrassing for the general state of MS and how it isn’t the sort of thing that gives players a poor reputation. And if kdowns slot turns out to be scum he’s immediately going on my personal WOTC list and I’m forwarding this game to the Mods because that is a strategic replace-out if I’ve ever seen one.

Kdown’s slot absolutely needs rope. Again if you are Town seriously do an ISO on him. Note he has exactly one scum read (DS) and all of Day 2 has been excuse making and prod-dodging with no content. Anyone who says “Oh, they replaced we can’t lynch them” needs to re-adjust their priorities. Kdowns has amply demonstrated that he has no interest in finding scum and no interest in actually presenting reads for two game days. That’s a completely valid reason to lynch him.

@Grib

– I’ve already said my peace on Bro’s vote on Waco and why I find it suspect.

Grib’s 2880 is spot on and I think very relevant to why Bro’s claimed reads make little sense given the play he is presenting.

Grib is Town. Zulfy is Town via Farside’s posting this game. Very Town. Medicinal is Town until we actually get Bro scum flipped and then I’ll really have to dig back and see whether I think it is likely they’d pull a buddy clear like that.

@Zulfy – do not play this game as you did TTH’s Summertime and think lurking is acceptable. It isn’t. Effort from your slot is paramount.

Transcend was a solid Town read Day 1 (mostly for Cheetory’s efforts). The play today has been bad and I’m not leaning on a Town read on him for Cheetory much longer. But aside from Ceph 2823 has enough reads I don’t take issue with that I’m not going to move that way today given the many other players with reads I do take issue with.

Disagree with the whole sentiment espoused in 2815.

Besides Kdowns I’d support wagons on Bro, hiplop and Snarky today. Probably Ceph if it came to it.

--

I wouldn't mind lynching Kdown for that replace out post.
Kind of pissed me of seeing it on fucking page 120

Vote him then.

--

Hey look i lynched Waco even though i TRed him to shut you up.

Actually this is the prime reason to not listen to you frankly.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI you can take the bullshit you keep peddling about me and shove it right up your ass.

See if you really thought I was scum this wouldn't be the reaction. I'd be scum trying to mislynch you.

This is pure, unadultrated "MoI is a pain in the ass Town who will not stop scum reading me" from you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

His response to FB's fake guilty on Spiffeh is super bullshit - it looks like DS preparing for an inno flip because "omg Spiffeh/camntsuki so town by play." Like, that's never a reason to not trust or discredit a guilty result because people have wrong reads all the time, and not having self-awareness of that is obviously not a realistic thing to expect.

His play in the game has, in general, been disruptive and non-productive. His reads are relatively static, and he doesn't seem to take into consideration new information.

Plus he just says a lot of incredibly dumb shit that I wouldn't expect town to say on questioning fairly fundamental theory points. Usually that sort of shit comes from scum (hiplop should remember Chicagomeet where literally only scum asked me in Deathnote's Deathnote game why I started the game out by claiming hated, as if a hated townie should ever start the game not claiming immediately. DS has been doing shit like that)

Crappy attempt at a case.

The first point is not in any way true. He called Firebringer out for the faked guilty right after Firebringer made a second post that showed clearly he didn't have a guilty on Spiffeh. Which when I called Firebringer out on it also. As did Spiffeh. So the first point is junk.

The second point is policy and therefore more junk.

The third point is "playstyle" which Bro made a whiny post about other players discrediting his playstyle so this brimming with irony. Also the "Oh, some F2F game supports this" is a crap addendum that isn't viable meta at all. So yet again more junk.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because it feels just like a repeat of Day 1 with Waco?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh god Medical is Mr. Rogers aren't they ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Tier 6: MoI. MagnaofIllusion was fairly towny d1. However d2 I think his push on Diamond has been fairly awkward and it's not sitting too well with me. Don't think that the exchanges he had with Nacho should clear his slot, because interactions are so very easy to fake.

So are you just not reading the game or outright making crap up? Very curious since I haven't pushed Diamond at all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, yet again failing to read something correctly.

usually a scumtrait, people

Wait I'm the one who read it wrong. lol.

Yup

VOTE: Bro

[MagnaofIllusion]

Out of everyone I'm still most confident that DS is flipping scum

You were confident that Waco was the best lynch for yesterday so excuse the rest of us if we take this with just a grain of salt.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The difference is that I admit when I'm wrong/fuck up.

You double down.

But it's a scum trait right? You said so yourself. Admitting it doesn't make that go away, right?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Like you're more concerned about proving how right you are than actually catching scum.

No this has been mostly an exercise is pointing out how inane and non-scum-hunting your comments were in the first place. Because either you were just blowing out smoke from your ass when you laid down the "This comes from scum" line in the first place or were calling yourself scum if you are still trying to pretend that's an actual scum-tell.

Either way it demonstrates you aren't really interested in sorting the game from a Town perspective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So now the work isn’t killing me I can get back to some commentary on the thread.

I’m not getting lynched this game so scum should probably stop holding out hope and just Nightkill me as usual.

Gamma’s meta excuse for hiplop being Town is suspect given I’ve already linked another game with hiplops–

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Where his posting was very similar to here and he was scum in that game. So it’s clearly just his posting style and not alignment indicative at all. And Gamma has already told me he is a solid Town player so I question that pass being issued to hiplop.

--

Okay. I am committing 100% to blowing off plans tonight to fuck up scum tonight.

Oh look what never happened.

--

I have to say I'm kinda sick of people pushing us regarding our claim.

The fact you pushed enough and got more information than what was originally revealed pissed me off.

Having a Neighborhood with Bro in addition to Bro confirming you are a friendly Neighbor isn’t something that justifies this kind of posting.

Your role is non-standard. You didn’t explain it in any sort of clear fashion and when you keep making statements that don’t on the surface seem to match the limited information you have given you are going to get questions.

--

the "hasn't done anything that looks like a towntell" part is actually worse than the DS stuff I mentioned there in my mind at least. hiplop and DS and kdowns (and bro but he's got the whole thing with MJ that makes me not want to mess with him atm anyway) all have little things that I think are more likely to be coming from a town mindset than a scum one, even if it is possible for scum to fake them, and not seeing anything like that for MoI yet with his...density of his posts is pretty worrying.

This is probably the worst explanation for thinking someone is scum I’ve seen in a long time.

I have plenty of indications in my ISO that I’m Town. My whole Imperium interactions are front and center case number 1. And you are working double-time to explain those away as “bussing”. Your whole argument is “He doesn’t show Town tells” and many other players point them out you go to an Appeal to Proficency argument saying “Well he’s good enough as scum to make them” and sidestepping the issue that your “not seeing Towntells” is busted.

That dog doesn’t hunt.

calling him out for the super not-important question of whether Tammy is 'participating' (im assuming he just meant posting in thread because otherwise it seems retarded to even ask instead of just not-important)

Actually this needs to be addressed as that question to Imperium was absolutely game relevant.

Tammy lurks as scum. The fact that Imperium was signed up and not Nacho made the fact that Tammy was not participating absolutely game relevant. In the recent Open game we played together part of my strong Town read on them was Tammy’s strong Day 1 presence posting in the Hydra.

So portraying that question as “super not-important” is wrong. Especially after Imperium has been proven to be scum.

So why did you think it was not relevant again Gamma?

--

gut mostly, also having an excess of townreads

i think that if someone is writing as many words as he is writing i should be able to answer the question "why is this player not scum" and i can't

You probably need to calibrate what you think is Town behavior then. Because I don’t recall specifically but I don’t think you scum-read Imperium and you seem to be Townreading ISO’s like hiplop’s.

Or you are scum in which case this post makes sense from a strategic standpoint.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from now til Tuesaday morning.

Got busy late yesterday and didn’t get to post this …

life is busy. Sorry.

Tonight.

You see me shiver with antici ….

Why is nobody besides SnarkySnowman voting Snowstorm?
This seems insane me to me.

Because too many people were all “Kdowns is not scum, he’s an easy lynch”.

What do you think of those players?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Still think hiplop's reaction to one (1) vote way at the beginning of the game was awful.

This.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Having a Neighborhood with Bro in addition to Bro confirming you are a friendly Neighbor isn’t something that justifies this kind of posting.

Your role is non-standard. You didn’t explain it in any sort of clear fashion and when you keep making statements that don’t on the surface seem to match the limited information you have given you are going to get questions.

The fact that MoI can get away with posting shit like this just makes me sad for the expected quality of play on this site.

The fact that Bro continues to post useless crap like this makes me sad that he thinks his play is exemplary of high quality play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

They claimed a conf-town role. You don't fucking question it unless I flip scum.* Really, REALLY not hard

*Which I won't because I'm town this game.

The fact you even say this shows your high horse attitude about the quality of play on site is just crap. One of the worst things about current site meta is that generally players don't give any reflection and thought into claims or the manner in which they are made.

Deadline is approaching and clearly Bro isn't getting lynched.

Snarky I scum read early on and Imperium helped derail that wagon. Frankly I don't want a stupid last Day rush.

VOTE: Snarky

If you are Town think of this as karma for your bad vote on Town me in Fire and Ice Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The point is that there's no point in questioning MJ's claim/alignment unless I flip scum. If I flip town at any point, the inconsistencies are obviously them hiding other aspects of their role/trolling scum.

This is basic fucking mechanics and the fact that you can't understand that is beyond bonkers.

No there is no reason to not get a clear understanding of a garbled and quasi-contradictory claim by MJ until the point you flip Town.

This is basic fucking mechanics and the fact that you can't understand that is beyond bonkers.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: hiplop

This wagon makes sense to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Probably.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You know what also makes sense? DS, but you hopped off him yesterday. Now you're just going off on someone else.

Well that's factually incorrect since I never voted him ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

drowning does sound more like a serial killer kill.

Well unless there is a Town Redirector / Bus Driver out there or unless the Mafia are morons it kind of has to be either a Vig or a SK.

You know, Nacho shot and all ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI's hammer post on snarky where he makes an excuse for hammering him saying HEY IF YOU'RE TOWN OH WELL is so so bad

So let me get this straight - after spending the day pushing on my stronger scum-reads (Bro, kdowns, hiplop) with Day deadline looming within a RL day I hammered someone I had a scum read on Day 1 and expressing doubt that it might be a Town flip is scummy?

Again you look to be stretching for anything think you can label as scummy as opposed to actually looking at context.

Let's talk about Transcend's hammer Day 1 on his claimed Town-read that he did to "shut everyone up". I don't recall you calling that scummy ever. Can you link to me where I might have missed that because if you think my hammer on Snarky is "so bad" I'm curious why you aren't after Transcend for that particular play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: DS
#YOLO

Yeah speaking of terrible posts ...

@Aristo

- I know you lurk as scum. I had to yell at you in the Princess Bride QT for doing so. Why exactly should I not think you are scum here?

[MagnaofIllusion]

And DS will be a complete repeat of both if you let it happen.

Repeatedly light AtEing isn't going to get players who are already voting you to unvote you.

Instead of this why aren't you making more of an effort to push for a scum read to be lynched?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Frankly the way today has developed gives me little confidence that DS is a scum flip. don’t see the scum I saw when I re-read his play in Soccer Spirits upon replacing in. Small sample size but it seemed pretty clear there. The fact that Bro was in that game and keeps posting as if DS’s play is some surprise revelation to him I find suspect. And hiplop, despite being a counter-wagon to DS, seems happy to just lurk out the pressure and wait for the hammer to be dropped on DS.

--

Now that I think about it, I scum read MoI even more. We've played together during DC Mafia. You know just how lynch bait Snarky is. I don't believe Town MoI would lynch him like this after defending DS so hard.

So what is your point here … that because in DC Mafia that on Earth 1 I didn’t scum read Snarky I’m obligated to not Scum read him in every game? Because that’s a pretty bad stance to take. As I’ve said – Snarky pinged me with that early post that didn’t really replicate what I expected from Town Snarky from multiple games (DC Mafia, Open Nearly Vanilla, Inspirational Mafia).

--

People always seem to forget that I lurk when busy as well...

Regardless, I see no reason to do anything but DS today.
He was counterwagoned yesterday when it mattered, and I still haven't seen anything helpful out of this slot.

Once he flips scum, we need to look at the Snarky wagon for a scum mate or two.

So you have a known and acknowledged meta for lurking as scum and expect anyone to cut you some slack when you lurk? Nah. I mean you lurked so bad in Princess Bride that Something Smart even tossed around the idea of faking an Arist post from the hydra that game.

VOTE: Arist

The “he counterwagonned yesterday” argument is pretty bad given that there were tons of wagons and counterwagons yesterday.

What happens if DS flips Town? We should scour the Waco / Snarky / DS wagons looking for the mislynch driving scum, right?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Cannot believe you guys are gonna make me put up with someone who calls other people morons for being perfectly reasonable.

I have to put up with Bro so no sympathy from me.

Should I wonder why the minute I move my vote you move over to hiplop?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI had a decent point about what I said about him given that he was attacking bro and kdowns for most of that day. pointing out 'buuuut transcend did the same thing' is stupid, he didn't make a bullshit excuse for voting him and cheetory looked really town before he replaced out and transcend feels gut town anyway, but MoI's apparently still not getting lynched today anyway so whaaatever

Yeah, the point is that you were manufacturing crap as opposed to scum-hunting given you didn't blink an eye at someone hammering a claimed town read.

I'd vote Gamma if there is enough interest.

[MagnaofIllusion]

um. did you forget I wasn't fucking here for day 1? I replaced in.

So? You aren't absolved from knowing the events of the game for that reason. Again - this response doesn't dissuade me from thinking you were manufacturing reads (aka, scum) as opposed to reading and reacting to what actually happened in the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

chill. Ill get to it tonight, okay? Super busy

Nth version of “Yo I’m busy” with absolutely no follow-up.

VOTE: Hiplop

L-1

--

so because cheetory looked town and transcend feels a bit town and transcend did something similar to you except he didn't add some bullshit to absolve him of responsibility for the lynch, I'm manufacturing reads because I'm didn't scumread him too. I'll admit I'm probably a bit biased in finding you scummy more than others would because I despise your play in general but that's fucking stupid MoI.

No, it’s not stupid at all. Transcend specifically hammered a slot that he said was Town. I don’t care what your other read on that slot was (and I agree Cheetory looked fairly Town) the fact that you didn’t even blink at him hammering a Town read over 4 days from deadline yet you make an attack about me deadline hammering someone I had a scum-read on is scummy behavior from you. It doesn’t make any sense coming from Town who is honestly scum-hunting. Also the whole “absolve myself of responsibility” is bullshit. I did nothing of the sort. So yeah … I don’t see someone wanting to actually find scum.

Also speaking of “absolving himself from responsibility” – the last little bit where you hedge saying “I did it because I don’t like you” is doing the exact same thing you accused me of doing. Again – scummy.

--

Mhm, because I also lurk when in hydrae. Like, to the point that I've been replaced out of them in the past. As town.
I also lurk when busy, when the game is slow, when I get overwhelmed, and when I don't feel like posting.

Yes, I lurk as scum, but I lurk as town as well, and can provide many examples of it. It's basically NAI despite people claiming otherwise.

So basically you do something all the time to benefit your scum game by claiming it is not alignment indicative for you. Glad you don’t play to your win-con as Town to benefit your scum game.

Will still rope this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Given you are going to be waiting for eternity what do you think of neither DS or Gamma actually checking to see if it was the hammer and their reactions?

[MagnaofIllusion]

And another day where scum-DS ALMOST gets lynched but slips through.

Yeah, if this wasn't anything but empty fluffery you'd be looking at all the vote movement after DS got to L-1 and parsing who was scum and who was Town.

Because clearly all the players not voting for DS can't be scum.

But nope ... just more fluff one-lining.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Transcend did the same thing yesterday too, it seemed better to see if hiplop actually came in and said anything about it.

Which means that hiplop scum will know to react just as hiplop Town would. So it's an empty reaction test and you should know that. It's not like hiplop is some newb ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

You were supposed to play along with it...

It's not fooling hiplop so there is no point. He's not a newb nor stupid.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I mean here is an example of why reaction tests with experienced players are generally useless …

In Paint Mafia - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66872

Thor hammered Katsuki (who was his Scum partner, and the game was in LYLO at that stage) and we get the following exchange.

gg

Was it white as the GF, the Purple seemed more like an intentional screw with town choice.

Also, why the hell did you kill Zulfy?
I pondered the reasoning behind that one forever and couldn't figure out how it benefited any scum at all.

Holy crap!

If you're town that was a nice move. I was hooked on Thor but iro was my second choice. The vote on kats then just leaving the thread felt suspect.

Thor's reaction felt real.

Yea it did feel p real.

Spoiler – Thor was scum and I’m pretty sure he would have won the game the next day if he hadn’t brain-locked on the special mechanic and quick-lynched and claimed scum on a Color flip as opposed to a lynch.

Hiplop has been around long enough that he can easily fake a “Townie” reaction and pretending otherwise is foolish.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning for normal weekend duties.

I can’t say as I’m whelmed by Transcend’s attempt at a VCA but find it interesting that Bro who decried VCA earlier suddenly is happy that Transcend’s VCA happens to coincide with his reads.

Also interested that hiplop’s wagon just happened to fall right off L-1 with not claim or any activity at all from hiplop to explain why.

Since I’ll be V/LA I’m dropping this information now in case a lynch happens when I can’t post –

Grib is absolutely not the Serial Killer. I expect he was the Mafia Night 2 target but that’s not as certain as him not being the Serial Killer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah let's put this to rest -

Enough has come out at this point that I don't want to wait til after V/LA -

I'm Miss Frizzle, from the Magic School Bus. I'm a Commuterizer.

Last night I chose Grib as I wanted to protect my strongest Town read based on in game activities. Since we are missing a kill but apparently still had a Serial killer shot my assumption is that Grib was likely that Mafia target.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI- how is commuterizer different from a jailkeeper?

Whoever I target can't get successfully targeted by any other roles. Just like a normal Commute operates. Jailkeeper just protects from kills.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So uh.

This clears Gamma then.

No it doesn't. If Bro used it N2 it contradicts him. If he used it N1 they don't cross paths.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Gamma

- so you are saying that Keyen has this nice shiny role and he as a Newb didn't use any of his abilities N1?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Bro is probbbably lying, given that Voyeurs don't see who performed the action.

Um not being one to defend Bro but you aren't reading this properly.

Bro is saying that the only role to affect Medicinal was one Investigative Role. And he knows that's him targeting Medicinal so no-one else did.

[MagnaofIllusion]

yeeeeeeeep

tbf all of these are actually more late-game stuff if you think you're going to live that long but I doubt that's why he didn't use any of them.

VOTE: Gamma

No way someone as completely newb as Keyen doesn't use a shiny toy right away.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Au contraire, I find it more likely for a noob not to use their power N1.

You spent some time arguing that an Innocent Child was weaker than Friendly Neighbor so I honestly don't care that much when it comes to your input on matters like these.

Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh look who showed up to make some superficial comments and not scumhunt.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is a reminder that MoI's play this game has been trash and that I really don't think there'd be 3 roleblocking abilities in the game, even if mine is one-shot

also that there's no reason why the commuterizer can't be either a scum equivalent of a jailkeeper or a fakeclaim for one

and yeah this isn't super useful but I don't have time to go over stuff until tomorrow, I'll go over stuff in more detail then.

Can we just rope this? Weak insults and weak supposition combined with a claim already directly countered.

What exactly more are people waiting for?

[MagnaofIllusion]

look at our interactions

not scumbuddies

So I’ll take a page from the Gamma playbook –

It could have been distancing …

[MagnaofIllusion]

In all this reading of yours, what made Bro stick out??
He didn't even seem to be one you were looking at..

Bro's not getting lynched today. Neither is Zulfy. Not enough momentum on either slots.

Why is this the most important thing you return to the thread to comment on?

What are your reads on DS / Gamma / Hiplop and why?

[MagnaofIllusion]

nacho and i were trying to solve the game together

we were very paired up. Itd be stupid to be scum that way

No thanks, I don't fancy wine this early.

I'd be moving my vote to hiplop if I knew his wagon was more viable than Gamma's currently.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: moi

town moi would never throw out something like that. Clearly pinning us together with no actual rationale. Why? You know I'm town.

Lets kill this fucker

See you missed the whole point there since I was referring to Gamma's stupid a shit assertions that my interactions with Imperium look like partners.

Derp.

But have my "OMGUS" vote - lol

VOTE: hiplop

[MagnaofIllusion]

yo MoI if you've been so sure about hiplop being scum, why did you lynch SS with him? Did you think he was bussing?

It's possible. Why are you asking me about a deadline vote I made to assure we didn't get a No Lynch (which would be a disaster given the disjointed and split nature of the playerbase)? Did you expect me to say "Hmmm ... this player I am scum reading is also on the wagon I can't vote there even if there are chances I am wrong about said player?"

I mean given you hammered a claimed Town read Day 1 I'm not sure what your line of thinking is here ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m not going to waste my time responding to Gamma’s post given I’m not getting lynched. I can’t tell if Gamma is just terrible Town who can’t let personal issue go or scum who is desperately trying a Hail Mary before just giving in to the reality that I have to be Nightkilled to be dealt with.

However while taking a spin through the slot ISO on re-read this popped up to me –

since it's actually relevant now my last ability is a hide, and I've asked eleven already if I can get a little bit more specific on the flavor for the abilities

eleven got back to me and i can claim the ability names, they're telescope glasses for the watch, the secret of Yo(-Yo) for the roleblock, and Malaria Net Tent for the hide

Gamma is saying that he didn’t in his initial role PM have flavor associated with each JOAT ability. This doesn’t seem to match my RolePm at all since my flavor for my Commuterize is the name of my ability –“All Aboard the Magic School Bus”. I’m doubting that Gamma’s original Role PM didn’t list those claimed flavor elements (Telescope Glasses, Secret of Yo-Yo, Malaria Net Tent) as the abilities at his disposal. Possible given a JOAT might be formatted differently that a single power role but I think Bro can clear this up.

@Bro

– how is your RolePm structured vis-a-vie the individual JOAT 1-shot abilities? Does it list them like this –

Don’t leave your friends – you have three one use abilities you can use a night – a Roleblock, a Hide and a Watch.

Or like this –

Don’t leave your friends – you have three one use abilities you can use at night

Telescope Glasses – You may Watch …
Secret of Yo-Yo – You can Roleblock …
Malaria Net Tent – You can Hide …

If it is the first then what I saw was just natural differences in formatting due to the nature of the role. If it is the second (or some other variant that Bro can explain) then Gretchen is almost assuredly a fake-claim and he didn’t think to ask for more flavor details before having to claim. Given the Mafia is the "Creepy Costumed Cabal" I imagine that the Mafia members are all actually costumed personas and have been provided non-costumed fake-claims.

Also would like to mention that Gamma’s claimed Night 2 watch on MJ also fits pretty well with a Mafia Watch hoping to catch a Serial Killer taking a shot at the Friendly Neighbor.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You just wasted your time writing a post that is obviously wrong, you might as well waste some more and respond to Gamma.

Why don't you point out what's wrong? I'd be curious what you think it is.

Unless it is that you strong Townread Gamma in which case I don't care.

[MagnaofIllusion]

what's wrong is that those quotes do not say this

Inherent in having to ask for flavor for each of his JOAT abilities is the fact that they are not shown in his original Role Pm. That's pretty clear.

My RolePm does not say

Commuterize - All Aboard the Magic School Bus - text text text.

It says

All Aboard the Magic School Bus - text explaining the Commuterize ability.

So I do not expect he would have to ask for flavor related to each ability if he RolePm is formatted similarly to mine.

As said - Bro can quickly clear this up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah the abilities are in the abilities along with the *you can vote* ability, not in the flavor section. The "flavor" I was talking about was just the ability names, which I asked Eleven if I could claim specifically to make sure I didn't get modkilled for role PM bullshit.

Ok with this in mind and re-reading the quotes I can see that makes sense ...

Although I'm pretty sure if you really thought I was scum you'd be screaming about "Misrep Misrep" ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

And you're upset he's seeing it was a mistake and not blindly pushing anything you say as scummy?

Given that's pretty much what he's done since replacing in ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

If someone could please please tell me all the claims.
They've been hard to find.

Summary that I can remember

DS - VT (Ron Stoppable from Kim Possible)
Gamma - JOAT (Gretchen whatever from Recess) - Watch / Roleblock / Hide
Bro - JOAT (don't even remember flavor) - Vouyer / ??? / ????
MoI - Commuterizer (Miss Frizzle from Magic Schoolbus)

[MagnaofIllusion]

That post does not show a Town read on Snarky ...

Why do you think that at all?

[MagnaofIllusion]

First, you're basing a scum read on experience with town-games. You had no meta on Snarky-scum but you just assumed he wasn't town because you couldn't see it. This is a wrong approach to scumhunting and the strength of your read was not natural. If you're good at reading town-Snarky you should have given him some time, not jump right away to the conclusion that he was scum.

See now I know you have no clue what you are talking about. Or maybe scum looking for angles. How do you think in all those other games I Town-read Snarky? It wasn’t magic. It was that I had done research into his scum games and perceived differences between those games and the games where I Town read him. So stating I have no-meta on Snarky scum is just stupid. Unless you are one of those who say “You can only have meta from games you shared” in which case I say “Nah, that’s stupid”.

As for the rest of this post I don’t particularly care whether you think it is a proper approach to scum-hunting given you don’t have a clue what you are talking about regarding how I read Snarky.

Second, you had enough experience to know he was lynchbait, a nice target for scum and easily lynchable.

And instead of looking out for possible scum trying to push an easy mislynch you made their job easier.

So what’s your point here? That if I read someone who is a VI as scum I can’t possibly push them as such because they might be Town? News flash – VI players pull scum roles too. In fact part of the contribution to a recent game both Snarky Town and I Town lost was due to having too many Vis floating around and not lynching the scum VI hiding in among the Town Vis. In fact one of the reasons BTD didn’t get lynched is for the exact same reason you are stating – he’s lynchbaity and the Day 1 heat on him read as scum pushing on an easy lynch. And so several Town players (including myself) didn’t want to lynch him Day 1 for that reason.

And the bolded is ironic since the number one protector of Snarky Day 1 was Imperium who was scum. I’m curious why you are just ignoring that fact in your little “You made it too easy for scum”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

How do you know that hammering Diamond isn't a winning move?

UNVOTE:

You think Diamond is probably flipping Green so I'm confused as you seeing this as some scum-slip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: ds

Bro is lovely

If DS is Town and this isn't dead by the end of Day tomorrow then there is absolutely zero hope for Town this game ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gamma: Hide with Magna.

He and I will protect you.

Mafia can only block one of us.

We need to solve the main ITT issues.

You know if he Hides he doesn't need protection because he can't be targeted, right?

[MagnaofIllusion]

No.

Don't want Gamma to be forced to clear me if he's scum who can't actually hide perchance?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The thing is, you did not use a single argument based on scum-meta. All of your arguments were some variation of "I've never seen Snarky do this as town", "Snarky town wouldn't say this", with several mentions of your previous experience with town-Snarky to support them. So if you do have scum meta on Snarky, why did you use only town meta to scum read him?

Why do you ask stupid questions? I’m serious – the inherent context of me saying “Town Snarky doesn’t make that post” is that it is in line with his scum meta.

VI's can be scum, sure, and that sucks since most can be difficult to read, but you claimed to be proficient at reading Snarky. Yet you did not put much effort into it. You put more effort into giving your read some credibility and convincing other people that Snarky was scum, than actually reading him. You barely interacted with him and you were already scum reading him. You ignored all the particularities of the slot, namely it's VI'ness and jumped right into a scum read. Nothing in your ISO tells me you tried to read Snarky or even give him a chance to show he was town, nothing. It shows a scum mindset.

This is all a case of “Snowstorm is looking for things he think he can portray as scummy”. Just like Gamma, who happens to have disappeared, has done.

Interacting with Snarky isn’t required for my reading him. Hasn’t been in any of the games where I successfully read him as Town so I’m not sure why you try to say it is required here.

For all this you’ve been floating I am reminded of the following –

[8] SnarkySnowman ~ Grib, hiplop, Gammagooey, Aristophanes, Spiffeh,

SnowStorm

, Cephrir, MagnaofIllusion

In fact the first time he appears in your ISO is when you voted for him at 3498. So it seems pretty odd that you are calling me scum for not putting effort into reading Snarky when the only post in your entire ISO that mentions him at all is your vote for him.

Seems pretty suspect for you to be calling my effort scummy in regards to Snarky when you voted him with not a single reason presented in thread.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Snowstorm - I'm requoting this so you have no excuse to pretend not to read it and respond.

For all this you’ve been floating I am reminded of the following –

[8] SnarkySnowman ~ Grib, hiplop, Gammagooey, Aristophanes, Spiffeh,

SnowStorm

, Cephrir, MagnaofIllusion

In fact the first time he appears in your ISO is when you voted for him at 3498. So it seems pretty odd that you are calling me scum for not putting effort into reading Snarky when the only post in your entire ISO that mentions him at all is your vote for him.

Seems pretty suspect for you to be calling my effort scummy in regards to Snarky when you voted him with not a single reason presented in thread.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do I look like I need excuses? I'm not the one discrediting its attackers at every opportunity as a defense. And because I know you're gonna insist on this, I'm going to explain my Snarky read. I didn't have one, he was a blind spot. I had several town reads and not clear scum reads. It was an acceptable lynch.

Ok, so you think that Snarky was an acceptable lynch with you having not a single read on him and that's a Town thought process. Meanwhile I who had a scum read on Snarky and only hammered him with a real life Day left at deadline is scummy.

That makes zero sense. Other than you are trying to find reasons to call me scummy as opposed to realistically looking at the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This isn't about me, it's about you, and whatever you say about my Snarky vote does not change the fact that your Snarky push was terrible.

Let's recapitulate why:

1. You used town games as evidence to push a scum read.
2. You claimed to be proficient at reading him but you showed no signs of trying to read him.
3. You claim to have scum meta on Snarky, but you did not use it in your case against him.

No, it is about you specifically your push that makes little sense from a reasonable Town perspective.

Also 1-3 are all incorrect and going Appeal to Repetition isn't going to help you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can't really argue against a glorified "NO U".

I've made my case. Everyone is free to read it and check the facts for themselves.

It's already been argued against. That you disagree really isn't germane.

But please pretend that I'm helpless against the onslaught of your gripping posts ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lemme get on the same page as you all here, I'll give my opinion tonight.

Holding you to this ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

btw 4040 sucked but i think that's just grib being bad rather than him scumposting.

So Grib is willing to vote someone he thinks is Town to help disprove those people who have been pushing said Town player.

And you say that's just bad play ...

Where have I seen that reasoning before?

[MagnaofIllusion]

DS since you are here and posting - who are you scum reads?

I'm not going to accept "No-one will listen to me anyway" as an answer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

For the record I love all the people just assuming that there is a Serial Killer about and then giving players who are playing to a profile that fits good SK play a pass (hiplop, Aristophanes come to mind)

--

Why is that your assumption and not the clear alternative that Grib's the SK?

Because the flavor of the deaths clears Grib of being the Serial Killer. Imperium was killed by being Drowned. He was Mafia. Unless there is a Bus Driver / Redirector scum didn’t shoot themselves. No evidence of that so far. So Drowned is the Serial Killer / Vig flavor. Drowned appeared last Night (Spiffeh as drowned) but the other flavor did not. So, aside from me being Roleblocked, Grib can’t be the Serial Killer / Vig as he can’t have taken an action N2.

What did MoI do N1?

I haven’t said and given I see no additional info that can be wrung from it I’m not going to at this juncture.

Grib killed Imperium N1, was commuted N2 (from what I've gathered)

How did you gather Grib killed Imperium? He’s claimed nothing of the sort to my recollection.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, I hope you're smart about your action tonight.

You are flipping scum aren't you Diamond ...

Are you the Serial Killer?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I didn't think about the flavor at all though so maybe youre right.

Basically unless new information comes about (Busdriver / Redirector) he can't be the Serial Killer.

He could be Mafia making the kill or the target of the Mafia kill. My gameplay read is Town but I can't say that he might not be playing a solid scum game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

(the joke is that vca is about as useful as half an appendix)

And still more useful than the contributions of hiplop and Arist ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

confirmation that vca sucks ass dick

Again for the record - if as Cephir keeps telling us DS flips Town?

This absolutely has to die tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

you line up those lynches like you mean it!

Did you consult your "random buzz-phrase" spin chart for this?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: hiplop

Haha I imagine there is much cursing in the scum QT about the Vig shot and missing another kill. Love it.

And look I was dead right on Arist.

Will also lynch Snowstorm given Kdowns scummy play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

ANNNNND because I'm catching up tonight

Yawn. Heard this empty excuse before.

Lynch this scumbag.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I continue to get a good chuckle out of players who cry “VCA sucks”.

I’d probably also lynch Cephir at this stage since his play basically has resolved down to being a jerkish smart-ass and repeatedly saying “My play is crap” since the only person in charge of his play is himself.

@Gamma

– why are you assuming that Grib is a blocking role?

@Trans

– why are you bothering to interact with Firebringer on his soft at all? It’s a pointless process.

--

Magna, you aren't gonna claim responsibility for the missing mafia kill?

Not outright. Yesterday I had the bonus knowledge of knowing that your claim wasn’t the reason for the blocked kill since I Commuterized you. I didn’t last Night so I don’t have that additional confidence.

I will say that I didn’t commuterize yourself, Gamma or Transcend so on the off chance Gamma isn’t lying scum Transcend is more or less cleared of being scum at all.

I also think farsideslot could be another scum with their vote off in nowhere land.

Maybe. Only holds if hiplop isn’t Mafia.

--

After our interaction in the last day and my push on you, you'd vote me based on kdowns's play?

Oh, another case of you having bad reading comprehension. The fact that kdowns lurked and avoided any scum-hunting is just icing on the cake of your scummy play.

--

I'm going to stand by hiplop-town until an investigative/SK shot/etc makes me not. Like I guess he could be SK, but he's not faction-scum. Gamma could be lying about his claim, but I think that's a more useful thing to question down the road.

Given that you stood by Waco scum and Diamond scum this really isn’t all that meaningful to be honest. Or to put it in your terms – “Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

why does that make me scum??????????

What makes you scum is your complete lack of scum-hunting, that your pushes pretty much have been on flipped Town, that you say stupid things like "My interactions with Imperium and Spiffeh clear me" when they don't in any way, and that you constantly pretend to be catching up when you are lurking out pressure on a regular basis.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well just to piss VCA whiners off I ran Day 1 to Day 3 through my personal VCA analytics and it says I should be lynching either Cephrir, Gamma or SnowStorm before hiplop, albeit by a slim margin.

And to probably never entertain lynching Grib, Zulfy or MJ.

I should probably review some ISOs on those first four names ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey guys

Unless gamma is scum

I'm town

I think gamma is scum though

We understand these facts.

What's the takeaway we should have on your Gamma suspicion? If I dig through your ISO will I find you thinking kdowns was scum? Or are you thinking this for you is a personal win-win (either Gamma is lynched as scum or you get confirmed Town on a mislynch)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dead Scum Review –

Up first – Imperium

Interactions

–

Hiplop: Responds to hiplop’s Snarky post at 922 which I don’t see as telling either way for hiplop. Now 1210 on the other hand I think makes more sense from partners. If hiplop’s Town I don’t see much reason for Imperium to make that post. On the other hand it certainly sets the stage if hiplop ever flips before Imperium and is scum that Imperium could point to it and say “This post put him on my radar” or some such posting. 1246 and 1253 are pure fluff that makes me read them as partners. 1271 could be a chainsaw for hiplop.


Cephrir: First even mention is 1408 where Imperium lumps Ceph in with Bro and Fox as players Camnt would buddy to. I don’t think both Bro and Ceph are scum from that post.


Gamma: 1216 could be some coaching (trying to get key to be seen as actually thinking through his suspicions) but reads to me as probing the slot. Will need to see if further exchanges take place. Similarly with 1404. 1634 is another very tepid interaction.


SnowStorm: 1270 could be a chainsaw for kdowns. 1273 is a post that has me more leaning to hiplop as a partner than kdowns. I can’t see Imperium going out of his way to like that more or less fluff post from kdowns if they are partners.

Take-away

–

Nacho is a good player so I am putting a grain of salt next to every read made here but having gone through Imperium’s ISO I didn’t get a much clearer picture on these 4. I will say that based on what I saw with his general interactions I have strong doubts that Bro, Grib or Zulfy could be partners. Which unfortunately aside from Bro is already where I was at.

His side of the interactions with hiplop don’t say not Partners in the slightest. There is little interactions and the ones that did happen were very superficial. Consequently hiplop’s “We were trying to solve the game together” explanation for why he is cleared is pure garbage. Nothing in this ISO changes my mind about hiplop being a viable wagon.

There literally are no interactions with Cephrir. But there were absolutely minimal interactions with kraska. No closer based reading Cephrir from this ISO.

Similarly with Gamma – the few kraska interactions I saw from Imperium could be interpreted as “mild disapproval with no need to followup” which fits his keyen interactions also. I could see some coaching in his softballs to keyen that Imperium never felt the need to press.

SnowStorm is maybe the one read that I’d say slightly leans Town and that is solely based on 1273. Of course not a lot there but I don’t see the need for Imperium to drawn even a weak link between the slots by “liking” kdown’s suspicion on Town Diamond.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dead Scum Review –

Aristoph slot

Reads Lists –

Ok I just skimmed the first 10 or so pages and the last 10 and isoed a couple of ppl
Ppl I have as town so far: camn slot, keyendgshshsjjs, diamondbshshsjjd, kdowns, cheetory

So we know Camn and Diamond are Town. The Cheetory read feels like mild appeasement to Transcend’s weak suspicion that kraska quoted in that very post. And I explain my Keyen read below. The kdowns Town read based on the first 10 and last 10 pages at this stage doesn’t make much sense. Kdowns feels like the scum being snuck onto kraska’s reads list.

Interactions –

Hiplop: 2242 I don’t see a post to Spiffeh Town that kraska makes as a hiplop partner. He’s softly undercutting Spiffeh’s Town read on hiplop in response to Spiffeh calling his kdowns read bad. On a gut level I don’t think 2527 looks like partner interactions. Same with 2543. 2708 also doesn’t look like partner / partner. 3937 is the first post that makes me question their interactions. But I could see it as Arist having such a strong Townread on Hiplop with no reasoning as laying a false trail.

Cephrir: Gut on 2069 is trying to justify his Town reads to another Town so leaning more Town Cephrir from this interaction.

Gamma: Kraska’s first real post with a read was 1707. The reasoning behind his Town read on Keyen doesn’t make a ton of sense given keyen’s erratic play so I’m leaning towards this as “Clear a bad Town slot for Cred”. 2228 is fluff. But 2260 actually reads as coaching to me. 3859 is a defense of Gamma but on a gut level feels like WKing Town. Read of light Town at 3937 feels meh.

SnowStorm: Already covered the reads list for kdowns. 2237 is basically a “Too Stupid for Scum” argument which I dislike but could go either way. I feel that 2476 could be a defense of kdowns. 2659 actually reads like partners to me. There’s a backing away from his kdowns Town read but lists 5 others players he would rather lynch (Bro, Snarky, Firebringer, Grib and hiplop). 2927 by Arist also looks like scum staging a bus if necessary but not willing to commit to it. 3047 makes me want to change my vote this instant to SnowStorm.

Take-away –

Based on the posting for this slot I’d lynch SnowStorm absolutely first and Gamma second. There are minimal Cephrir interactions but I had gut “not partners” on that and his hiplop interactions read fairly strongly not partners.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So let’s look at kdowns / Snowstorm –

The first post in kdowns ISO that strikes me is 255. He basically says “Someone asked me about DS and Grib and I answered them. Can’t suspect me for doing what was asked of me. Why the votes”. Followed up with “Why am I under suspicion for posting others haven’t posted” at 258. What strikes me about this is it starts his long streak of basic prod-dodging from this point. I can certainly see scum following this pattern. For reference his next post with any substance at all is 788 over 11 pages later.

788 provides us with a scum read on DS (Town) and Town reads on farside, Ceph and Grib.

792 shows a discontinuity in reads. He’s on a DS is scum kick but stops to say the following to Snarkysnowman in regards to a DS Town read from Snarky –

Also Snarky I'll remember that in the future, for buddying

That post makes no sense in context of 792 where he is directly calling DS the scummiest scum who ever scummed. If DS is scum as he says then sure Snarky might be defending him but that clearly would not be buddying given scum buddy to Town.

Not sure what to make of 1511 and the line “if there is a Vig shoot either me or DS”. Unless he’s either Bulletproof or the Serial Killer in which case he has reason not to think a Vig exists. His response to Grib at 1516 doesn’t clear it up as it didn’t read as sarcasm in the least.

Actually 1593 reads to me as scum who is disappointed that one of the main sources of discord in the thread has been force-replaced. Knowing that camn’s slot was Town scum would love for katsuki’s personal brand of hatred to continue to poison the thread.

The Waco vote at 1780 is scummy as fuck given he hasn’t called Waco scum all thread.

2048 on re-read is an eye opener for all the players who said DS was scummy for his reaction to Firebringer’s “guilty” on Spiffeh. Absolutely reads as scum who know Spiffeh is not a partner (the possibility of a Serial Killer complicates this). Same with 2065 where he is telling Bro to “slow it down”.

His interaction with kraska at 2515 as kraska-partner reminding him that “I’m defending DS so don’t forget to suspect me also”.

Snowstorm’s reads list upon replacing in is as follows –

Finally, all caught up.

Town:
Grib
DS
MoI
Zulfy
(Ceph)

The rest is in limbo.

Need to see how this follows his interactions from this point.

His response to Ceph at 3330 looks at odds with Ceph being on his Town list, even if at the bottom in brackets.

Also given his interactions with me yesterday I think 3361 is telling. Did those interactions which were ostensibly the basis to not vote me when there was a wagon just disappear to be replaced by the Snarky garbage he was floating? 3386 further cements that position.

Also this post really, really makes what was already a bad attack on me yesterday very very suspect –

You can argue it was a scum derail, but it is as likely, if not more likely, that it was a town derail, because there's no way any town player would allow Snarky to reach LyLo. Scum did not have to lift a finger to lynch him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gamma, did you crumb your hider target? If not, why not?

For the record I want this answered as well.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: SnowStorm

Sorry Transcend but you calling lynches Town lynches but supporting every one of them doesn't make me want to sheep you today.

What do you think of SnowStorm?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Since it occured to me that the Mod hasn't posted a VC yet today I went and made my own

SnowStorm – Firebringer, Cephrir, Gammagooey, Bro, MoI
Hiplop –Zulfy, MJ
Gammagooey – Transcend

SnowStorm is at L-1

SnowStorm probably should claim I'm thinking ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Gamma

– why are you assuming that Grib is a blocking role?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI- He's cleared Ceph and hiplop of being the SK but not mafia when no mafia kills happened. theoretically he could be an fbi agent or there's some other wacky shenanigans but that's not the smart assumption here.

That's my conundrum with your "Too many blocking roles" diatribe - given a re-read of Grib's posting there are clearly alternate explanations that aren't off the wall at all (FBI Agent) that you immediately dismiss out of hand. Thus I have a continuing hard time reconciling that with possible Town Gamma.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Youre the best hush

Damn I mean I'll probably go back to voting SnowStorm later but the level of just terrible here is astonishing ...

VOTE: hiplop

[MagnaofIllusion]

yeah, a little moral support, that's really awful, how dare he.

Here's a memo for you Cephrir - everything isn't about you and your feelings. I know that's a shocking perspective but it is what it is.

What's awful is hiplop's continued doing absolutely nothing in the game to help Town achieve a win by finding and lynching scum and continuing to pretend to catch-up and actually play the game while doing exactly the opposite.

Now I expect you will say something pithy like "He's disinterested like me" but frankly I don't care.

[MagnaofIllusion]

and hey maybe if people would stop fucking piling on me it might be easier to get in this game

Nope. You've forfeited your right to lay down crap like this. You gave it up way back at the second "Oh, incoming content" claim that dissipated into the ether.

You don't like being voted? Play like you are Town and actually want to solve the game. That too hard? Go find a safe space or something ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

are you looking for scum or town who keeps wanting to get back into the game and failing

I'm looking for scum. Endless repetition that you are Town while doing nothing that looks like it comes from a real Town perspective isn't very convincing that you aren't scum to be frank.

[MagnaofIllusion]

are we still lynching the kdowns slot

like

i'd compromisewith hiplop over that

Well the vote count is currently 4-4. The duel of SnowStorm's "I'm going to find scum and lynch them!" followed by no content and hiplop's "Content is hard because I'm demotivated" could go either way at this point.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you want me to quote myself saying how ridiculous VCA is as all alignments I could probably provide at least ten examples

Well at least you are consistent in being wrong ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

literally if i joined the wagon it would be a hammer

Nope try again. 4 on each wagon means your vote (or, lol, self-vote) would be L-1.

Why do you Town read SnowStorm? Who are your scum reads now?