Mini Normal 1823 - Game Over

[Saru]

VOTE: algebra

[Saru]

I can't tell if Snake is noob town digging his own grave or just silly scum. Lots of votes on him in a short amount of time is a bit suspect.

[Saru]

do you have anything else to share
since apparently you were keeping track of the game but lurking

Sure. I thought the case made against Gerry for not voting was a bit weak. Many players are cautious about just voting outright without solid reasoning, regardless of alignment. If there were evidence that Gerry not voting so sporadically was his scum meta, then maybe I see a point.

Do you have any reads so far?

Not any solid ones. I might have to re-read at a later point as this game is moving quite quickly and I'm mostly skimming to catch up. I'll take a look at the Snake wagon, as that built up too quickly, which usually means atleast 1 scum is on it.

[Saru]

Speed wagons on D1 don't always mean scum is on it, it mostly depends on the person being wagoned. I'm slightly leaning towards Snake being noob town who is trying to show off by making what he thinks are astute observations. So that being said, there's a good chance scum is on his wagon, as he is easy prey for them.

[Saru]

I took a quick look at Snake's post history and he's apparently played IRC mafia and then like 3 newbie games before this game. Unless he's played forum mafia before he came here, then I guess he is a n00b to an extent, as newbie games have fixed set-ups that are known whereas normal games are a different ballgame. I could be wrong though. Would like him to clear that up.

[Saru]

Speed wagons on D1 don't always mean scum is on it, it mostly depends on the person being wagoned. I'm slightly leaning towards Snake being noob town who is trying to show off by making what he thinks are astute observations. So that being said, there's a good chance scum is on his wagon, as he is easy prey for them.

Not saying this can't happen, but I have never seen noobtown enter a game and try to show off. Seems like a stretch for such an early read.

Well reads need to start somewhere, no?

[Saru]

I think snake contradicted himself pretty hard

But saru defending his contradiction looks more like he knows that snake is town rather than actually town reading snake.

I refuse to believe that the forming bw was telling for him as well.

I.

Refuse.

I'm not defending any kind of contradiction. That's a mis-rep. If I were defending him, I'd be questioning people as to why they voted him, which is not the case. Instead, I'm questioning the speed at which the wagon formed.

[Saru]

So if someone is caught in an obvious lie, you think that people shouldn't vote for them?

This seems like a loaded question. You'd have to prove to me that it was an "obvious" lie. From my understanding, he's being voted for contradicting himself, not lying. These are two different things. So what's the lie and what's the contradiction?

[Saru]

So if someone is caught in an obvious lie, you think that people shouldn't vote for them?

This seems like a loaded question. You'd have to prove to me that it was an "obvious" lie. From my understanding, he's being voted for contradicting himself, not lying. These are two different things. So what's the lie and what's the contradiction?

The contradiction was a lie. He defended his vote and then said it was just an RVS vote. If it was an RVS vote, why was he justifying it so much? Because it wasn't an RVS vote. Which means that he lied.

This is a good point, and that's why I said I wasn't sure at the start whether he was silly scum or not, because that kind of blatant contradicting is hard(but not impossible) for scum to do at the start of the game, as they tend to be more cautious overall in relation to that. I assume that newer players are more prone to making contradictions than their experienced counterparts, but whether that newer player is town or scum is where things start to get complicated.

I'm going to wait and see what Snake has to say about his experience level and the wagon that formed on him before I decide to cast a vote.

[Saru]

Just going to leave this here.

[Saru]

We can't be friends because you hard claimed scum and your alignment contradicts mine. Get bent.

Damn that sucks. </3

[Saru]

Not too tight please. My neck hurts a lot already from being ML'd so much.

I crack myself up.

[Saru]

Okay then saru: why do you get mled so much?

Thanks for understanding

Guess I'm just naturally scummy. Sad times.

[Saru]

Possibly.

[Saru]

I took a quick look at Snake's post history and he's apparently played IRC mafia and then like 3 newbie games before this game. Unless he's played forum mafia before he came here, then I guess he is a n00b to an extent, as newbie games have fixed set-ups that are known whereas normal games are a different ballgame. I could be wrong though. Would like him to clear that up.

this is my first normal game; i'm not fucking up that hard

bullshit
if snek flips scum saru is scum
and i'm like 99% sure snek is scum rn

So sure that you haven't voted him yet lol.

[Saru]

Ok so if snake is town, then who do you think is scum Mr. Saru?

I don't think Snake is town. Try again Mr.Transcend.

[Saru]

I took a quick look at Snake's post history and he's apparently played IRC mafia and then like 3 newbie games before this game. Unless he's played forum mafia before he came here, then I guess he is a n00b to an extent, as newbie games have fixed set-ups that are known whereas normal games are a different ballgame. I could be wrong though. Would like him to clear that up.

this is my first normal game; i'm not fucking up that hard

bullshit
if snek flips scum saru is scum
and i'm like 99% sure snek is scum rn

So sure that you haven't voted him yet lol.

lmao
I voted like 6 pages ago

Actually you voted Gerry afterwards and have yet to switch to Snake.

[Saru]

I kinda find it incredibly ingenuine that instead of defending yourself and your logic that you wifom a few times and then blame your scumminess on past games. No, man. No.

Cry more?

[Saru]

Cry more?

I'm giving you a chance to make me think you're town.

But with what you're doing, you're closing the door to your coffin more and more each time you post.

The coffin is nice and warm though.

[Saru]

So if someone is caught in an obvious lie, you think that people shouldn't vote for them?

This seems like a loaded question. You'd have to prove to me that it was an "obvious" lie. From my understanding, he's being voted for contradicting himself, not lying. These are two different things. So what's the lie and what's the contradiction?

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST YOU'RE TERRIBAD

in a contradiction, one statement is always a lie

The point was whether the lie was "obvious" or not.

[Saru]

Z:

If saru flips scum (he will) i expect that it's more likely that snake was wked town vs. Wked scum.

Serious question: what does WKed mean? lol

[Saru]

So if someone is caught in an obvious lie, you think that people shouldn't vote for them?

This seems like a loaded question. You'd have to prove to me that it was an "obvious" lie. From my understanding, he's being voted for contradicting himself, not lying. These are two different things. So what's the lie and what's the contradiction?

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST YOU'RE TERRIBAD

in a contradiction, one statement is always a lie

The point was whether the lie was "obvious" or not.

GOOD LORD
In a contradiction, one statement is always a lie.
Therefore, since you knew there was a contradiction, you knew one statement HAD to be a lie

fuck the snake wagon let's kill this fucker
VOTE: saru

PEdit-White knight-ing/-ed

herp derp a lie isn't always intentional if the contradiction wasn't intentional.

[Saru]

it doesn't matter if the contradiction wasn't intentional
it's not like a scumslip is intentional
I'm liking this saru wagon a lot

Then by that logic, anyone who contradicts themselves is conf-scum? k.
I like my wagon a lot too. Easy way to catch scum when I flip town. hehehe

[Saru]

it doesn't matter if the contradiction wasn't intentional
it's not like a scumslip is intentional
I'm liking this saru wagon a lot

Then by that logic, anyone who contradicts themselves is conf-scum? k.
I like my wagon a lot too. Easy way to catch scum when I flip town. hehehe

Yep, all 7 on your lynching wagon will be scum. Good catch.

It'll be easy to tell by their shitty reasoning whose scum. Don't worry, right after my hammer I'll give the low-down. Town can thank me later.

[Saru]

it doesn't matter if the contradiction wasn't intentional
it's not like a scumslip is intentional
I'm liking this saru wagon a lot

Then by that logic, anyone who contradicts themselves is conf-scum? k.
I like my wagon a lot too. Easy way to catch scum when I flip town. hehehe

Yep, all 7 on your lynching wagon will be scum. Good catch.

It'll be easy to tell by their shitty reasoning whose scum. Don't worry, right after my hammer I'll give the low-down. Town can thank me later.

Well then, what the hell is everyone waiting on? If you can solve it just from your lynch, then sacrificing you to find ALL the scum is a no-brainer.

That's what I'm saying!

[Saru]

I don't consent to my death. I haven't voted myself. y u lie

[Saru]

Saying something can be solved from my death isn't consenting to it. y u stupid

[Saru]

You're not trying to stop your death at all, you're not scum hunting and you're dating people to lynch you. Y u asshole

I would argue I've tried to stop my death with these posts: 304 313 329 all which argue my point that the wagon on Snake seemed shady.

I'm scum hunting by questioning Snake's experience level and looking to see what he says to the wagon that formed on him.

Others have dared others to lynch them in this thread. Are they scum too?

y u ignorant

[Saru]

Then if I flip town, Zyf is likely scum for being so desperate for my lynch? Nice logic yo.

[Saru]

Seems like my suspicion of Snake being n00b was right. That doesn't excuse his contradiction however. Since he hasn't provided a reaction to his wagon, I can't say at this point what I think about him. I guess I'll have to wait until he comes back or for his replacement before I can judge that.

Scum is feeling like Transcend and Xkfyu at this point. They got "personal" with each other a while back and then all of a sudden Xkfyu sheeps Transcend with no reasoning and they're all lovey-dovey now. Say what?

Zyf is so desperate for my lynch that it feels like over-eager town, but I've been burned before with that logic, so we'll see.

VOTE: Transcend
I can do Xkfyu as well.

@MOD: Can we get a VC? Pretty please and thanks.

[Saru]

This is not true. I provided content explaining how I felt about the wagon on Snake before I "dug a hole" for myself. If you didn't agree with that, that's fine. But it seems like to me that you're only voting me at this point for my more trollish posts from before that annoyed you. Now that I've returned to real content, what do you think about Snake and my view on him?

If I flip town, who is scum for you?

[Saru]

This is not true. I provided content explaining how I felt about the wagon on Snake before I "dug a hole" for myself. If you didn't agree with that, that's fine. But it seems like to me that you're only voting me at this point for my more trollish posts from before that annoyed you. Now that I've returned to real content, what do you think about Snake and my view on him?

If I flip town, who is scum for you?

if in some fucking way you flip town--which you aren't--I'd have to go back and read everything to reshuffle all my reads.

But you're not flipping town
so I'm not going to have to do that

For someone who railed on me for weak reasoning, you seem to be falling in the same trap. Should I now scum read you? /sarcasm

[Saru]

oh, I didn't respond to the first chunk.
1) I'm voting you for wk-ing snake who had 0 reason to be wk-ed because they fucked up real bad
2) I still think your view on him is absolute and utter bullshit even though you're probably right. And that is because you wk-ed them with TERRIBLE logic

But if he had 0 reason to be WK-ed, why would I do it and give away my position as his scum buddy? Think about what you're saying. Look at motivation, not actions. There's no reason for me to try to save Snake so early on when he can fend for himself. That just seems downright silly for scum to do.

I would also argue that WK-ing isn't the right term here. It suggests that I was defending Snake, which wasn't the case. I felt that Snake's wagon was iffy and that he could be slightly town for that, regardless of his contradiction, which n00b town is more prone to do anyways.

Essentially, I wasn't defending his contradiction, just taking a look at the speed wagon. Others mis-repped it or mis-understood it as me coming to his defense.

[Saru]

And Saru your defense is you weren't town reading Snake just outting facts and where's this contradiction?

no they said that it wasn't obvious to them snake was lying even when it was obvious to them that snake contradicted themselves
except that makes no sense

What? Are you joking? I clearly said in 329 that it did feel like Snake might have been lying.

[Saru]

You don't seem to know what the term "white knighting" actually means.

Then explain it to me.

[Saru]

1) Why would you do it? So that if/when he flipped town people would be like "oh wow saru was right let's trust them"

Wait, so apparently I'm scum with Snake(which you're 100% sure about) but I'm also scum who is WK-ing a town Snake. What? Guess you contradicted yourself and now you're confirmed scum for that.

Anyways, I'm just going to claim right now because fuck it. Alas, I am but a VT. I hate being VT anyways so whatevs.

After I flip, take a good hard look at both Transcend and Xkfyu because the fight between them looks fake af. Trolling is a convenient excuse that I could use for my posts too, but I'm not scum so. Plus, Transcend's discredit of me just looks so bad lmfao. If I'd have to give a third scum, I'd probably say one of the lurkers.

Mimi is probably town. Gerry is also probably town. inb4 "oh those are Saru's scum partners."

If Zyf is town, then he's just a bad player who thinks questioning speed wagons is scummy. Sad times. He'll learn.

Good luck and cy@ in the dead thread!

[Saru]

Questioning speed wagons isn't necessarily scummy. At the same time, speed wagons aren't always on a town player.
Therefore, assuming the speed wagon must be a scum-led wagon isn't necessarily right.

Yes, I agree with this. I said so in 287.

[Saru]

no i'm saying lynching someone before they claim is bad play lol

K guys lets murder saru
fuck claiming

Well then.

[Saru]

what a CONTRADICTION

too bad he's probably obvious town still lol

So he's obvious town with that contradiction. So what's Vedith then for their contradiction? lol

[Saru]

no i'm saying lynching someone before they claim is bad play lol

K guys lets murder saru
fuck claiming

Well then.

ever heard of trolling
or hyperbole
or confidence

Ever heard of excuses
or bullshit
or lies

[Saru]

So then can't I make the excuse that I made a bad play by defending Snake/Vedit cause I was confident in them being n00b town? Seriously, how many more excuses Zyf.

[Saru]

So then can't I make the excuse that I made a bad play by defending Snake/Vedit cause I was confident in them being n00b town? Seriously, how many more excuses Zyf.

no because they aren't newb town

Ok, then I'm not scum? Same thing lmfao.

[Saru]

"Saru is obv scum he contradicted himself!"

"Zyf contradicted himself but he's obv town so it's k lol"~Transcend

?????????????

"Saru is obv scum for wk-ing someone who fucked up real bad!"

Zyf you're reaching hard here buddy. Even after you thought I was scum, you thought that Snake was scum alongside me. By that very logic, I couldn't be WK-ing Snake. How many more times are you going to change your story?

[Saru]

if snek flips scum saru is scum
and i'm like 99% sure snek is scum rn

The problem wasn't saru's contradiction
The problem was that they were Wk-ing someone extremely scummy

Again, by it's very definition, I cannot WK my own partner. You clearly stated that if I'm scum, snake must be scum. You've tried to argue that people are scum because of their contradictions(Snake) but whenever you make one(like the one quoted above), you're just "exaggerating."

You're so deep in a tunnel with your headlights off. I hope you find your way out soon.

Anyways, I'll provide a reads list after I do some re-reading. Probably tomorrow or the day after.

[Saru]

He thinks that the wagon is suspicious for forming quickly even though it had a justifiable reason for forming: someone being caught in a lie

lol what? You're assuming that I think that contradictions are just inherently scummy, which I don't. It depends on the person making the contradictions. I've said that n00b town are more prone to making contradictions and plus, the one that Snake made was so minor that a speed wagon like that is suspect. If contradictions were just plain scummy, I'd be voting Zyf right now whose made a couple himself, but I'm not. Also, apparently, using your logic, Zyf is scum right alongside me because he's denied making contradictions aswell by saying he was "exaggerating." I find it hard to believe you think Zyf and I are both scum.

His logic is ripped apart here and instead of acknowledging that, he weakly tries to keep justifying what he said.

Ripped apart? lmfao. How was my logic ripped apart? Mimi said that it wasn't impossible for a n00b town to come and try to show it off, only that he hadn't seen it himself. Apparently anecdotal experiences are enough to rip logic apart?

He said he wasn't defending a contradiction in one post, and then in all the posts after that he admits that Eagersnake contradicted himself but still tries to say that the contradiction wasn't scummy. We all know that he'd been defending eager, but he keeps denying it and it looks to me like he wants to distance himself from eager.

The amount of convolution here is real. If I was trying to distance myself from my scum partner, that means I would have voted him outright with some lame excuse instead of questioning his wagon. Questioning his wagon WHEN NO ELSE WAS will make it almost impossible for people to not scumread him and I together. Apparently, according to you, I would reveal myself and my scum partner just a couple pages into a game. Yeah....no.

Weak ATE

Weren't you the one that said that you get ML'd as town aswell?

If you don't think he's town, why have you been questioning his wagon? Why have you been protecting him all this time?

Oh, the semantics are real with this one. I don't think he's ONE HUNDERED percent town. Do I really have to point that out? His contradiction itself isn't enough for me to scum read him, but he also hasn't done anything to this point that would make me say he's town OUTRIGHT. A slight(and I mean slight) town read comes from me thinking he's a n00b town who contradicted himself. His replace post indicates to me that my feelings are not unfounded.

Another contradiction

That wasn't a contradiction. I was saying that I agree you could probably solve the game from my lynch by looking at the shitty reasoning for the votes on me(slight trolling), not that I agree wholeheartedly to my own lynch. Reach more please.

Anything else?

[Saru]

Had a long day. Will post my reads list later on today after some sleep.

[Saru]

wtf have I come back to. Holy shit. Now I know how feels to have to read like 8 pages lmfao. Also, hey Dwlee!

Anyways, I'm caught up and honestly I don't understand the votes on Zyf/Dwlee. They are town. Their claim makes all the sense in the world with their explanation and honestly, scum just wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot trying to get like a million people lynched all on D1, especially with the amount of shit reasoning he's been using. His strange actions match up with his claim. It's simple as that.

As for BlackStar, I don't really think he's scum. His case against me seemed like it was rushed(he somewhat admits to this) and he picked up on that when I countered him and decided he was probably wrong. Town can admit they're wrong too(just look at Zyf). As for him not scum hunting after my wagon, he did note that he was busy that entire day. RL is a thing. Null on him until he puts some actual work in.

As for the votes on Xkfyu, I don't feel they're far-fetched but not all that great. He was the catalyst that got people to jump off my wagon(which scum has no reason to derail in that situation, expect maybe town points for WK), but his own reason for jumping off(that a scum would never claim VT/be suicidal in that situation) felt a little weak, albeit genuine. His later play of voting Transcend for some weird scumslip(I really don't get how that was a scumslip?) is suspicious, as Zyf pointed out. His later play in general has been pretty scummy with no real reasons for his votes. It feels like he's just throwing stuff against a wall and seeing what sticks. I have a scumlean read on him.

As for Transcend, reading his ISO, he just feels like a cocky person. His fight with Xkfyu early on in the game seems to be a part of that. That doesn't make him town or scum either way, but he needs an ego check lmfao. I noticed this from him in my re-read:

Lowell my bud, there's a good chance any lynch i want today will go through. So in order to be in the majority, you gotta sheep me

Which given that he's been pushing my lynch most of D1 with crap reasoning, it feels like he's just crying that he didn't get his way as he was hoping. Poor guy. He's null for now.

This isn't a full fledged reads list, but it's somewhat of a start, so I'm not going to vote any one person yet as I need to work on some other people.
UNVOTE:

[Saru]

You're assuming that pointing fingers at lots of people was seen as a scummy action by Zyf himself. He probably thought that he was being a genius scum hunter, and that he was showing off how townie he was by making cases on people which might make scum nervous eventually. It's a bit of a naive(and stupid) plan, I admit, but given that he's a newbie to normal games, I can easily see him thinking up of such a plan.

[Saru]

BlackStar, you had Transcend at null in your reads, what has he done to change that for you?

[Saru]

After my last game(the one that Dwlee modded), it'd be silly for me to say that town having too much power is out of the question. I also suck at setup spec, so I'm not even going to try. I don't understand why Transcend claimed so early, like seriously, you had like 3 votes on you or something. That's just dumb as fuck.

Anyways, I really don't like the case on Texcat. It seems forced. From my count, Transcend and Texcat both have 4 votes on them, so some resemblance of a team is forming on both sides. I'm going to look back at the VCs and read some other stuff before I decide who to vote.

[Saru]

you're not actually 3/3 d1

chances of that happening are slim to none

There's 3/4 scum in saru, texcat, xkfyu, mimi.

I always love people who think they've caught the entire scumteam on D1. I guess my read of Transcend having a big ego is accurate. Good to know.

[Saru]

Why does this shit always happen while Im asleep.

I feel you.

Anyone who voted him was being stupid imo, obvtown by play and everyone should know LaL is a shitty policy, but you still shouldnt have hammered yourself, transcend.

QFT.

I'm going to spoiler each section of this post cause it's a bit wall-y, but I highly recommend people read it when they have they chance. I know people end up ignoring walls, but you don't have to read it all right now. Please just give it a look because I worked pretty hard on it lmfao.

Spoiler: Texcat Wagon

So, I'm going to go ahead and give the unpopular opinion here: this wagon on Texcat is just outright stupid(inb4 I'm scum defending my partner ). Dwlee's case on Texcat seems to be a case of town conf-bias. Also, voting Texcat because Transcend yelled "ZOMG ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE SCUM! LYNCH THEM AFTER I FLIP GREEN!" is really fucking stupid. Let's face it, Transcend is a toxic player, and the more a toxic player gets angry, the more they will burrow themselves into their shit hole and will refuse to see reason. The fact that Transcend was saying that people "hard scum claimed"(obvious exaggeration) is enough to show that his state of mind was nowhere near the kind to make informed decisions. He just wanted his scum reads lynched and that's it, he wasn't going to have it any other way. That kind of player is THE WORST type of player to listen to for lynch advice, because they're drowned in conf-bias or just plain hubris.

Spoiler: BlackStar is scum

Anyways, after much re-reading, I'm starting to notice a pattern developing between two players. BlackStar and Xkfyu. Let me start with BlackStar:
This guy has coasted the entire game. Go look at his ISO. At no point does he actually build competent cases on people before he votes them. All he does is take other people's scum reads and run with them without much reasoning as to why he HIMSELF scum reads that individual. The only time he made a case was on me ONLY AFTER he was prompted by Vedith to do so. He even admitted that he made the case up on the spot, and his case on me was riddled with reach reasoning and he picked up on that when I countered him, hence his unvote. He's been on all the major wagons on D1(Snake, Saru, Zyf, and Transcend). I'm not going to quote every post that he's made, but every time he votes someone, it's always a BLANK vote with no actual reasoning attached. His pattern is this: comment on another player's scum read, play to their doubts about their scum read, then outright vote the largest wagon, and finally get off when the wagon disbands. Rinse and repeat. Just take a gander at his ISO and you'll see what I'm talking about. Oh, and surprise, surprise, whose wagon is BlackStar on now? Take a guess.
I think Vedith nicely summed up how I feel about BlackStar:

It pinged me too, but I thought I was being paranoid

Aren't you an oportunist...

Spoiler: And Xkfyu is his partner

Now, what's the case about Xkfyu? Xkfyu is more of an associative scum read with BlackStar. Go take a quick look at the interactions between BlackStar and Xkfyu. The way they talk to each other is almost TOO friendly. Again, I'm not going to quote every post, but just a quick gander at the ISO's of both BlackStar and Xkfyu in tandem should give you an idea of what I'm talking about. BlackStar almost never asks inquisitive questions to anyone else in the thread BUT Xkfyu. He throws a couple of questions towards Xkfyu to make it look like he's trying, and then after Xkfyu answers, he doesn't follow through. This is classic scum play. Ask questions towards your scum partners only so that it looks like you're being a helpful townie. It's not like your scum partner is going to get mad/annoyed at you for it, so they're a safe option to throw questions at. They'll answer how they should and move on. FWIW, masons also do this to avoid looking scummy, as I did with my mason partner in Mini 1800, but I HIGHLY doubt we have masons in this game given the claims so far. There's more that I can point out about the relationship between BlackStar and Xkfyu but I'm not going to make this wall any bigger than it needs to be, I think I've made my point clear. If anyone needs more evidence, I'll be happy to provide.

Spoiler: Who Else Is Scum?

I'm glad you asked. The answer is: most likely Tiershift. I came to this conclusion like this: I looked at the people who were hardcore lurking for most of D1(Gerry, Algebra, Texcat, and Tiershift). Why look at the lurkers? Well, I've played enough games as scum to know that there is almost always that one lurkscum. This is that person in your school's group project who sits on their ass all day while you do all the fucking work. Why work when both of your partners are taking care of things, amirite? Anyways, I can eliminate Algebra from this because there's no real reason for me to doubt his claim/cc. Gerry's lurking has been one of the worst so far, however, his recent screaming match with Sonia felt like TvT. So I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt at the moment. This could change. This leaves Texcat and Tiershift. So which one is it? Tiershift says he might vote either Texcat OR Xkfyu at some point, which seems...strange. Bussing his partner(Xkfyu) wouldn't make much sense here. Voting Texcat however, I can see him doing that as scum(seeing as a Texcat wagon was BOUND to form today). The fact that he keeps either option open is suspect. He didn't really scum read Texcat at any point D1(and even partially defended her), so why would he even THINK of voting Texcat at a time like this? He said that Transcend is a trash player, so his reasoning can't be that "I'm going to vote Texcat because Transcend said to do so" because why would he be listening to such a trash player in that case? Or did he suddenly fall in love with Dwlee's case on Texcat which he was shit-talking just the day before? Either way, it doesn't look good. So in a match-up between Tier and Tex, Tier just comes out plainly more scummy. Sure, Tex hasn't done much at the moment, but the little that she has done isn't enough for me to TR or SR either way. However, the work that Tier has done(as of recent) has just been looking really bad. This ends up being more of a PoE scum read that can change however, because I'm not so full of hubris to think I'm 3/3.

There are like 2 others things I wanted to address, but I'm going to hold off on those right now because it's not really that essential at the moment, and it'll just make this whole wall unnecessarily bigger than it already is. I'll probably talk about them in a later post.
VOTE: BlackStar

[Saru]

@Saru That part where you said I only ask Xfkyu stuff is definitely not true. And I don't know what you mean by "too friendly". I don't think I've responded to him any differently than how I talk to anyone else. You said I make a lot of naked votes. Guess what? Almost everyone does that. I expect people to ask me why I vote for the people I vote for. If you don't ask me for my reasoning, then you only have yourself to blame if you don't know why I voted for whoever I voted for. I also don't see how making a case up on the spot in scummy. Why would I have cases pre made for everyone. I know why I think people are scummy but I don't sit down and make a list of every scummy thing as it happens. So basically, you scum read me solely because you don't like my playstyle.

lol you're only making my scum read of you worse with a post like this. Throwing shade unto others isn't going to help you here. "Don't single me out because everyone else does it!" is basically your argument for your naked votes. I'm not sure I see other players who have made 4 naked votes in a row(all on the major wagons btw) like you have, but feel free to correct me.

So apparently you think your playstyle is scummy in general? Is that why you think you get ML'd so much on D1, like you said previous? If so, it'd be nice if you could actually show me games where you played scummy on D1 and which ended in your mis-lynch. I'm sure you're just the most scummiest townie in existence, and this is all a misunderstanding.

And yes, you've been talking to Xkfyu with a pretty different demeanor overall. You've asked him twice for advice on how you could play better(unwarranted), which you've not done with any other player. When Xkfyu said "Yeah, yeah, Saru is town, go find another lynch", instead of choosing to question at that very moment why Xkfyu thought this way, you gave a little gimmicky GIF and moved on. Heck, you even apologized to him for making him laugh while he was at work because of that GIF. Oh, how sweet of you. <3

You haven't CHALLENGED Xkfyu on any points that he's made with which you disagreed. Instead, you shrugged them off with little to no reasoning. This is EXTREMELY scum partner interaction. The friendliness doesn't come from agreeing with all his points, but instead of not choosing to further question his disagreements with you. It feels like to me you don't want to put your partner in a bad light, but you're fine with doing that to others.

[Saru]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=64085
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=64698
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66474 (wasn't lynched here but was dangerously close to it like 3 times on day one)

Alright, so let's see what we have here.

The first one is a newbie game. Your first game ever of mafia, I presume, by the way you were asking basic questions. This is a TERRIBLE sample to show right off the bat. The majority of the players in that game were newbies themselves at the time, so one can confidently say that their reads aren't going to be all that well developed. They'll look at the tiniest thing to scum read someone, because they want to be UBER L33T scum hunters. Unless you think me noticing that you've put naked votes on all 4 major wagons is just pointing out tiny things, I don't really think comparing my scum read on you to newbies' scum read of you is a fair comparison. I'm not going to give this game much weight, if at all.

Second game is a blitz game. Again, this is not really a great sample due to it's nature. Even after reading through the thread, I don't see much in the way of actual scum hunting from players on D1. Seems like most of them were concerned with getting a lynch out before the deadline(it is a blitz after all) rather than actually taking the time to make competent cases on people. And I don't really think people lynched you JUST BECAUSE they were scum reading you(a few of them even voted you REGARDLESS of them having a TR on you). Again, I don't think my scum read of you comes from any kind of want to lynch before a deadline. Comparing my scum read of you in this game to a blitz is no bueno. Sorry amigo.

And, finally, the last game, an actual sample. Finally. Thank you. I'm not going to read through 213 pages, so if you can tell me why you think people were scum reading you on D1 and why you were almost lynched 3 times, that'd be nice. Specifically if you can quote me posts where people were scum reading you for pushing major wagons for little to no reasoning, that'd be even better. Essentially, I'm looking to see if your "scummy townie" play here(as you asserted on D1) matches up with any of your past games. Supposedly "80%." If I see a clear pattern of you doing this, then I'd be willing to say "oh that's just how BlackStar plays as town, no biggie" but I really doubt that is the case. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Saru]

Saru is playing like shit and basing 2/3 of his reads off of preflip interactions which is really really bad

I'm rethinking this town read

So what about my read on you then? Is that bad as well? And why exactly? Be specific(I know that's not your forte, but try).

You apparently don't like the Texcat wagon, but also haven't really explained why Dwlee's case on Texcat was bad. You said it wasn't even a case, but didn't even explain why. Texcat also said she didn't agree with my scum read on you, but didn't explain why.

Also don't like Texcat's whole "Saru is the voice of reason" but then "meh his Tier scum read is wrong."

Not liking this butt-fucking between you two.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: texcat
If this flips red, I'm voting vulture boy next.

[Saru]

Just to point out to dumb towns. It's taken 2 full MS days to try and lynch tex. yet a bw formed on me within an hour. Why can't anyone see this?

lol yup, that's what worries me.

Don't self-hammer, that's just stupid and denies town info. Make scum work for your lynch.

[Saru]

Saru can you respond to my posts please

Sure: I changed my mind. These things happen in a game of mafia.

I'm not so sure you're scum with Texcat tbh. I agree that associative scum hunting pre-flip is probably a stupid way of going about things, so I'm just going to stop doing that.

I also love how Texcat votes gerry after she smells the counter-wagon to her own coming. At no point before today did she suspect gerry of anything. As soon as the leading wagons are her and gerry, she votes him.

I have Gerry more on a null read rather than town FWIW.

[Saru]

Sonia, stop being bad and vote Tex.

You're conf-biasing hard and need to realize that.

[Saru]

I actually don't think town would be this stupid. I have a good feeling Sonia is just playing up her stupid persona to get off scott-free at the end of all this.

She'll end up lynching Gerry and then be like "OH I DIDN'T KNOW WOW IM SORRY I FUCKED UP BOOHOO" like she did with Transcend. Mark my words.

P-edit: lmfao Gerry gets it.

[Saru]

Saru why did you originally scumread tex because I don't understand

Honestly, I didn't really feel Tex was actually scum up until she voted Gerry. She had no reasons of her own, and only quoted BlackStar. Mooching off other people's reasons for her SR is what she's been doing for a while now.

My scum read of her and you combined was dumb imo and I'm not counting that as the start of my SR of her, fyi.

[Saru]

You voted texcat so that was the start of a scumread. And that was purely based on associatives?

It was a start of a scumread based on you defending her hardcore when she had a wagon her. So yes, it was associative, and so I don't count it because I can see how dumb that was. If you want to count it like that, that's fine, but it doesn't really matter.

[Saru]

Hammering without intent and a chance to claim is what SCUM does.

No. If scum does that, they end up scum claiming. That wouldn't work as a strategy on D1 or even D2 for that matter.

[Saru]

Hammering without intent and a chance to claim is what SCUM does.

No. If scum does that, they end up scum claiming. That wouldn't work as a strategy on D1 or even D2 for that matter.

People usually see it as too scummy to be scummy

Sometimes sure. But, for the most part, those who do it end up doing it still get lynched. Point is: it's too risky. I just don't see scum doing it.

[Saru]

EBWOP: "But, for the most part, those who do it still get lynched."

[Saru]

So why was Gerry begging Sonia to hammer me?

I'm not going to speak for him, but seeing as you're saying he was only begging Sonia, I'd assume because they're friends(like Sonia says) or know each other or whatever.

It's common for friends playing mafia to speak to one another like this. I've done it in the past. "Yo dude, stop being bad and just hammer."

That's just my 2 cents on it.

[Saru]

lol her posts didn't increase in any kind of quality. She sheeped you and then gave half-assed reasons(BOOHOO HE WANTED SONIA TO HAMMER ME WHILE I WAS SLEEPING!!) to support that blatant sheep.

[Saru]

Ok, let's just say her posts got better in quality. What does that have to do with Gerry being scum or Tex being town? Anyone who comes into the game and does nothing D1 and then starts writing more than one line in D2 is sure to be given the "most improved poster" award. Both Tex and Gerry did jack shit on D1. Why does Tex get a pass just because she made a half-assed case? It's not like Gerry hasn't said why he thinks Tex is scum. They're both essentially doing the same thing.

I feel like you only hate Gerry because he was calling town stupid for his wagon. And guess what, they are.

[Saru]

I don't hate anyone lol. I already said that I don't know what to make of Gerry anymore. And I just realized that this conversation we're having right now is a diversion. I asked him what other reasons he has for scumreading Tex and then he ignored that and commented on another part of my post. It's the second time he's ignored the question. It feels like he only has that 1 reason for "scum reading" Tex

If you don't know what to make of him, then unvote him. Why are you voting someone you're unsure of? When you become sure again, vote again.

Put your words into action.

[Saru]

lol BlackStar, if you're town, you're playing really badly and you need to stop right now. After your initial case on Gerry, your only looking for reasons to keep your vote on him rather than having any additional reasons. "He's diverting attention, look!" "He's not answering my questions, look!"

I know how much you love to tell others this, so take your own advice for once buddy.

[Saru]

So you don't care at all that he's dodging a simple question? And how am I playing badly?

Guess what, you just dodged my question I had for you in 1946. Are you scum now?

[Saru]

He has said why he scum reads Tex. Or are you just choosing not to read?

Also, not trusting someone is not a reason to vote them. I don't trust anyone right now, should I vote the whole playerlist? Again, you're only LOOKING for reasons to support your SR at this point. You're slowly going into the same tunnel as Zyf and Transcend were. How ironic.

[Saru]

What else do you want him to say? Tex DID sheep you. Tex sheeped you when she was the largest wagon. You voted off her and onto Gerry. She saw that, quoted it, and then voted him too.

You only want him to give you the response you want, instead of what he actually believes.

Weirdness is not scummy. Again, you're looking for reasons.

[Saru]

LMFAO @ that GIF. Yeah, take a break. I need one too.

[Saru]

Just admit that you don't have any other reasons. You only "scum read" her because you know the lynch is down to you or her and you need to stay on her wagon no matter what

BlackStar, just stop. Please. This post is so bad I can't even with you right now.

Gerry voted Tex 10000 years before you voted him(you were the first). How was he to know that you were going to vote him and a wagon would form on him instead? Think about what you're saying man. Seriously. It's so fucking stupid ughh.

[Saru]

Except he has given a reason. She sheeped when it was opportunistic for her to do so. Just because you don't like the reason, doesn't mean it's not a valid one.

Also, it's interesting to me that you voted Gerry because you thought he just wanted Texcat's lynch and nothing more, but why would that be a reason to unvote Texcat then? She was at L-1 and you unvoted her. She hadn't even claimed. She hadn't done ANYTHING at the point that you voted Gerry for her to be unvoted. As soon as she saw your vote, she latched onto it and ran with it. Are you town who is this fucking blind to obvious scum trying to run up a counter wagon? Or are you just that same scum? Let me know which one you are. Thanks.

[Saru]

Ah, and here's the kicker to all this. You said that Dwlee was confident in his scum read in Tex. However, you said that Gerry didn't seem so confident about Tex's lynch and so therefore he looks like desperate scum(which doesn't make much sense, but let's roll with it).

If this is the case, then what about all the other people that jumped onto Tex's wagon? Did they have valid reasons to do so, or are they all just scum too? Why are you only picking on Gerry?

Feels like to me you smell a weak player(lurked most of D1, etc.) whose ripe for a counter-wagon.

[Saru]

I'm starting to get the feeling that this whole thing between BlackStar, gerry, and myself is all just town bumping heads with town. Like, I know it's the weekend, but no one has really butted in to our argument at any point. And it was like stretched over a couple of hours. I'm paranoid that scum is watching from the sidelines laughing at us...ughhh.

What do you guys think?

[Saru]

can we just lynch texcat ffs

[Saru]

^Even the mod is bored.

[Saru]

At-least spell his name correctly...

[Saru]

hahahah wtf my sides are hurting lmfao xD

[Saru]

you know what Idc anymore I really don't fuck this town and Gerry is flipping red for trying to bring proof to discredit me and make me look bad

VOTE: Gerry

That said, this was a scum hammer. Town really should have pushed hard against it.

QFT.