Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It's DDD! Hi! It's been a REALLY LONG TIME.

I haven't played for something like 18 months; we'll see how much I've retained. Reading the game early tomorrow.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ast – #32 nervous in the service? #63 seems like he knows that being passive is a bad thing and trying to cover for it instead of not being passive.

dreal – #104 is the best post in the game, 10/10 will never vote for this guy now.

ST – #36 is bad post, hurriedly protecting his vote with RVS. #60 is a good post, authentically mediocre vote reasons, truth about dreamliner’s posting habits. #119 considers options about #104 but mostly is paranoid as hell, good kind of nervous.

copper – #47, SE isn’t a teaching role, Accountant should be playing mafia instead of lecturer. #86 if you have to caveat a conditional possible tell maybe it’s not the best thing to explore.

Accountant – #39/#41 are pointless and defensive in a bad way.

@GM: Oh man, I confused you with farside. Never mind.

The cruelest thing anyone has ever said.

#69 misses that exact thing happening in #63. #106 dear lord.

VOTE: Accountant

#179 and it was such a good vote too.

UNVOTE:

Jae – #29 is a good vote. #120 but apparently everything is NAI to this guy (thanks for the heads up on this term, gm). #131 Hanlan’s Razor.

gm – #53 is good kinja.

Also, talking about theory isn't really alignment-indicative, which is why most of us are referring to it as useless.

I think talking about theory from experienced players beyond the minimum is a scumtell. When I was scum back in the day I’d talk about theory to cover my lack of activity on the scumhunting front.

~~~

Town: ME, gm, dreal, ST

Actually has a good post: Accountant

Now actually has posts: GL

Good votes: Jae, copper, Ast

~~

Checking votes placed.

VOTE: Jae

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If that were true it would make me an obnoxious and a silly person, so why are you voting me again?

Because I have a bunch of town reads and you aren't one of them.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: copper

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD's summary is also quite bad, not in the least because he happens to arrive to an almost carbon copy (with the little accountant game in the mix) list of the way GL is reading the game but they both mutually ignore each other.

In your experience do scum usually try to behave identically?

Other points of contention are town-reading Drealmer for 104 (or omitting the reason for why he is town-reading him but mentioning 104), town-reading GM again without much substance and ending up with a scum-read on Jae when his last point admonishes what can only be town Jae not to assume malevolence when misunderstanding suffices.

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

And my final point on Jae in no way assumes Jae-town; Jae claimed malice from GM when incompetence would've equally explained things. I didn't attempt to explain if Jae's mistake in argumentation came from malice or incompetence but given the state of my other reads I find malice more likely.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't (the likely-hood increases if they feel threatened and my post before your catch-up was designed to do just that), what scum do a lot is ignore each other when they should be town-reading or scum-reading their opposite number based on their stances, in this case you should at the very least town-lean on each other for seeing the game the same way but nope, not a peep about GL's case on Jae.

Waiting so you're telling me you omitted critical details and nuance and instead favored brevity? Must be scum... or your point in that regards when directed at me was nonsense.

Absurd (in a bad way) is mentioning irrelevant or contradictory evidence about the reads you are giving while doing so, if you had given no reason whatsoever for reading said players I would have asked you first why you thought what you thought, the fact you are mentioning the wrong things (like the Banana post or addressing Jae as if he were misguided town) are the problem.

The claim that I addressed Jae as if he was misguided town is just factually incorrect. I was rebutting an incorrect argument, which is something that should be done whether it's scum or town making the argument. And about everything else you said in that sentence was wrong on theory.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

This is a misrep of what he is saying.

Disagree.

Other points of contention are town-reading Drealmer for 104

(or omitting the reason for why he is town-reading him but mentioning 104)

, town-reading GM again

without much substance

And I'd argue the bold are the real points he's bringing, if he cared to evaluate my thought process on those issues he would've asked for clarification, instead he attacked.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Pointing out the argument is fallacious is step one of the process, step two, which you completely omit, is to say why you think scum_Jae is more likely to come up with that explanation and that's what you omit, my deduction is the likeliest reason why is you already know their alignment and are taking it as a given so of course you don't need to speculate about that. I like that you're very concerned about that accusation not sticking, as opposed to elaborating on your thought process, makes it more likely I am onto something.

No, it's not

the

process, it's

your

process and not everyone plays the game the same way, you frickin' robot.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I explained why I posted in the way I did (it was a good opportunity to reaction test), I then explained what I did not like about what you wrote and I think it's scummy, I also did try to understand your thought process re. 227, you don't seem in a hurry to cooperate.

Why would I be interested in cooperating with you at this point? I believe you attacked me unjustly and you continue to lie about my behavior; from my perspective you have no interest in the truth.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Pointing out the argument is fallacious is step one of the process, step two, which you completely omit, is to say why you think scum_Jae is more likely to come up with that explanation and that's what you omit, my deduction is the likeliest reason why is you already know their alignment and are taking it as a given so of course you don't need to speculate about that.

It's also pretty disingenuous of you to call me out for "attacking you before listening" during

a reaction test

but then claiming it's fine for you to do

the same

because of a 1 post "belief".

Busted. My first real post in the game is clearly not intended to be a serious case on anyone, it was a series of things that caught my eye to show my thought process, current thoughts on the state of the game and provide interaction points. And copper, like anyone with eyes and brain, knows that, as you can see him acknowledge in 244. But just a handful of posts ago he was pretending like it was some big sin that I didn't provide lengthy follow-up on one of the points I made WHEN THAT CLEARLY WASN'T THE POINT OF MY POST. He's pretending like my initial post was something it was clearly not to try and score points.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Who is your strongest town-read?

GuiltyLion.

I don't have a youtube video for him though.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

inb4 amished.

Did this one leak out or do we still keep it amongst ourselves in the cool kid club? I scratched my chin over that as well; it doesn't reach the level of critical assessment that I'd usually demand but when I think about it more there's not a good weird that you'd mention, it's almost certainly setting the table for exactly what the Amished tell was found to catch.

Ast was in my initial "good votes" list, I think this solidly locks Dragonfire in it. Scum-copper is still a better vote for now though.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: I still dgi. Can you rephrase?

A) Has that tell been widely disseminated? Back in my day... err... only a select few of us knew and used it.

B) Here's the extent of the crime...

I did slightly scumread DDD's predecessor oncilla based on gut feelings, but I should probably put that aside since he has been replaced. After all, my own predecessor said some quite weird things

Initially I wasn't sure "weird" was enough of a criticism to qualify for the tell. But upon pondering it further all the context for weird seems to be negative and I think it's a decent application of it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It has and

it's mostly debunked

at this point.

That baby had like a 90% success rate for me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yoh're right. I want to get rid of you.

DDD, stop talking about debunked tells and come squeeze copper.

Won't help; game will only progress if/when dreal, ST, GL, Jae, and Dragon show back up. I'm interested in what I need to do to convince them to vote copper and only they can tell me that. And the more we post the longer it takes and harder it is for them to get back in the game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I've heard people talking about Amished tells in a previous game, but wasn't entirely sure what they were. Are you scumreading me because I called Asty's posts "weird"? If so, that's a rather odd reason to scumread someone. To be absolutely honest, when I first messaged GiF with my request to replace Asty, I ISO'd him to see what he'd posted, and some of his earlier posts made me cringe. I'm not sure if you're confusing "weird" with "scummy"; by "weird" I meant "odd" or "strange" rather than "scummy".

I did slightly scumread DDD's predecessor oncilla based on gut feelings, but I should probably put that aside since he has been replaced.

After all

, my own predecessor said some quite weird things

Bold is mine for emphasis; when you said "after all" you're drawing a parallel between oncilla's behavior and that of Asty and it isn't a positive one. Furthermore, I'm certainly not some hardliner who pretends every post has to be super serious and only focused on the game but calling your predecessor's posts "weird" is a little too game related for me to believe it was just casual, pointless chit-chat.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

What's your stance on copper, GL?

might be scum, would lynch today. Some of the P->Q stuff he's posting reminds me of my scum play where I hone in on logic arguments and use that to deflect any notion of ~feelings~. However I'd like to see him respond to my questions and I'm more interested in Jae atm

Yeah, but a Jae lynch isn't happening today. Accountant seems solidly opposed and both GM and I like copper a fair amount more for scum.

Because I haven't finished playing with GL and DDD to see how they are going to react.

A) How are a bog standard attack and scummy misreps a reaction test and how is that claim not just the last refuge of a scoundrel?
B) The fact that I now "know" it's a reaction test make my further reactions relatively worthless since I know I'm being tested though. Which makes it kind of curious how quick you were to publicly claim your nonsense as a reaction test because as soon as you claim that the test is effectively over.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

LA notice: my sister's wedding is tomorrow so with rehearsal tonight I don't know how much I'll be around today/tomorrow but I'll try to keep plugged in.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

(a)There is no misrep in stating that what you said about the players you were reading doesn't match the reads you came up with at the end (in fact you partially admit it yourself by later claiming that was not a "serious case" on someone, an accusation by the way which I never made in the first place).

My points about your catch-up are still the same:
(b)-You ignore GL although you end up voting for the same player.
(c)- You don't give me the impression you were scum-reading Jae.
(d)- What you cite with regards to Drealmer can only be interpreted as a joke but then you put him as top town.

(a) You can't be this dense are you? It was a dynamic read of the game, I posted the interesting positive and negative things I saw and then in the end I decided what I felt mattered more. And unlike you I'm not interested in selling my narrative to the exclusion of all else, I'm interested in truth so yeah, there are both positive and negatives for some people. And maybe it was a little under explained but that's because I hate long posts and because it was supposed to be the beginning of things, not the end-all be-all.

(b+c) GL had like two posts, they weren't especially interesting. I voted with him because it was the only serious vote placed on someone on my "willing to lynch" list see my "checking the vote count" line.

(d) Now you're getting it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

(a) You can't be this dense are you? It was a dynamic read of the game, I posted the interesting positive and negative things I saw and then in the end I decided what I felt mattered more. And unlike you I'm not interested in selling my narrative to the exclusion of all else, I'm interested in truth so yeah, there are both positive and negatives for some people. And maybe it was a little under explained but that's because I hate long posts and because it was supposed to be the beginning of things, not the end-all be-all.

So why do you later claim those posts where there to help us understand where you were coming from?

Either it was a purely subjective mish-mash of posts you found entertaining/interesting and randomly placed them in there, and you are the one being dense thinking I should somehow divine this without being in your head, especially after claiming there was in fact logic behind them, or it's scum making stuff up and doing a bad job of it.

See here's the fundamental issue, everyone else "got" my post other than you. It makes me really skeptical that it was so confusing for you to understand. And instead of asking questions, like I'd expect someone who was interested in the truth to do if they didn't understand something, you went on the attack.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

"absolutely" is not used to literally mean "absolute"ly. It can be used as an expression meaning "very". check with other players if you don't believe me

I believe that's how you intended it, it still shows you are (pretending to be) very or as you would put it absolutely close-minded about the back and forth.

Why is this a problem? You pretended to have an absolute close-minded position on GL+DDD=scum. I don't think you have a leg to stand on if you take a hardline stance, then back off it with "reaction test", and then get at someone else for taking a hardline stance.

I think there's an implicit assumption somewhere (being pushed mainly by GM but the idea has also been sheeped by Accountant and DDD) that a "reaction test" has to have some kind of intentional expectation of how scum/town will react when it's given, but I think copper is saying his version of a "reaction test" is just to say shit and see what happens, which is plausible as town behavior. I don't think there's much in the case against him aside from the "reaction test" point and I don't think the "reaction test" point is a strong one.

By the standard you're arguing here everything is a reaction test, I voted them as a reaction test, I made that case as a reaction test, I made that argument as a reaction test, I ignored that person as a reaction test. But the problem is if everything is a reaction test then nothing is, you've robbed the words of any meaning.

It's semantics because you know damn well what she meant and you're trying to spin it a certain way by misinterpreting words. I thought maybe you're just not a native speaker but you apparently are so that can't be it.

Truth.

I guess, although if you read my scum-game on here you'll know that pushing wagons is what I do as scum, but then again it's all WiFOM... Who would you say my teammate is if I am scum?

Nah I am not GM, the sample pool is really small if it's just one game but I'll check it out and if your play as scum is radically different I'll consider it as a somewhat valid point, although the fact you know about it makes you possibly able to adapt so as you mentioned there is a WIFOM element involved.

I would strongly suspect GM if you flip scum, she coached Asty a lot at the start of the game, he said he felt like he was disappointing his master at one point and that he is a terrible liar, so if he was scum he probably left tells around.

GM also left you out of the players she might or might not vote today while putting you in her scum-reads and that may be a slip on her part. Also the fact she spent some time telling DDD that the amished tell was debunked while still scum-reading you is somewhat curious.

Didn't she say that she would like to lynch me or you today? Another odd point about GM is that she hasn't given me a concrete reason for scumreading me, so I can't defend myself or argue for why I'm town.

Why does she have an obligation to help someone she's scum reading by providing them reasons to be argued and refuted?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Why is this a problem? You pretended to have an absolute close-minded position on GL+DDD=scum. I don't think you have a leg to stand on if you take a hardline stance, then back off it with "reaction test", and then get at someone else for taking a hardline stance.

What I am trying to establish there is if Accountant is being genuinely close minded or if he is faking it, because that changes his likely alignment and that's why it's relevant.

Yeah, I don't see that, I just see a lot of sport-arguing.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Why does she have an obligation to help someone she's scum reading by providing them reasons to be argued and refuted?

Because if she's town, she doesn't want to mislynch a townie, so she would want to give them a chance to defend themselves and make a case for why they're town. A townie who refuses to discuss their scumreads or even consider that they're town is either deathtunneling or a bad player.

First, the two previous sections I omitted weren't addressed to you and at least one of your points destroyed the important context of the discussion to argue for the sake of arguing. Not interested.

Second, you and copper seem to make the same mistake, that every post in the game should be weighted exactly the same and that everything you do needs to be full bore on target. But that's not how mafia works and it's frustrating to me that you guys don't get that or are pretending not to get it. In this case, GM appears to prefer a copper lynch to your lynch; in the interest of transparency and future development she notes that she thinks you're scum but if she provided reasons then you'd start arguing about them and maybe someone else would chime in on the topic and attention would be drawn away from where she wants it, copper. Now that's just speculation but it would be my logic in her shoes. Mafia isn't just a game of being right and it's not just a game of persuasion, it's a game of momentum, and motivation, and social dynamics. And when you and copper argue over process it's very hard for me to tell whether you're just misguided or if you're trying to drown the town in these things that don't matter.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

What was the point of this? You're doing the same thing you complained about in the last sentence here. I also agree with Dragon that you should at least give some kinda reason for your read, but that's theory so w/e.

It's a refutation of what seems to be their primary argument, it's my argument about why I'm skeptical that they were making an honest argument, and if they are town it's useful information to modify their gameplay so it's useful.

If most of the new players don't mention it or agree with him it's more likely that's a genuine perspective he's had all game, if instead that's not the case (which iron signaled before when he said he would lynch him) he is more likely to be scum among the three stoogies.

How does a new player disagreeing with me make my perspective less genuine? It might make me wrong, but it wouldn't mean I didn't sincerely believe my argument when I made it.

His first post is null/troll town, but the follow up is bullshit when he tries to purport that it's a list of serious reads.

What makes you think it isn't serious?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

How does a new player disagreeing with me make my perspective less genuine? It might make me wrong, but it wouldn't mean I didn't sincerely believe my argument when I made it.

One of your points was that you have a hard time believing only I misread that post while everyone else got it (so I'm scum looking for an excuse to push you), at the time nobody else commented on it (which is not the same thing) and the less people "get it" the more it's objectively likely that your post could and was misinterpreted by town as well so the less valid does that point of view become and the more it looks like an excuse you made up to shift the argument.

You didn't even remotely argue the point I made, you just restated your original argument.

But before I try to educate you, again, let's get back to first principles. If someone makes an incorrect argument but one they sincerely believe is correct, is that a town trait, a null trait, or a scum trait?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Do I know they sincerely believe it?

If I do then it's either a town trait or a null trait depending on what argument they are making, if they are trying to use the "bad" argument to get a read on someone it's more likely to be a town-tell, if it's just them arguing a general point it's more of a null because they would have no incentive to argue differently as scum, if that's all they are doing then it could also be a scum trait.

Since I would not know what they sincerely believe I'd like you to further educate me on where you are going with this.

My point is that correct/incorrect and sincere/insincere are two completely separate axis's for the sake of evaluation.

At point A I make my initial post, at point B you criticize it and me, at point C I criticize you for your attack on what I feel is a perfectly normal post. At point D you get one or two players to say they found the post weird. And at point E you say this, "If most of the new players don't mention it or agree with him it's more likely that's a genuine perspective he's had all game". But that's not remotely true because of the time sequence, things that happen after I make my argument (point D for example) don't change whether I sincerely believed my argument when I made it (point C). Things that happen after point C may be useful in evaluating the correctness of my argument (maybe point A is a weird post in the current meta) but they don't speak at all to whether I was genuine in point C which can only be evaluated with the facts on hand at the time.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I do not know if you were sincere at point C

And apparently you have no interest in doing so.

~~

iron, we currently have a surplus of idiot in the game; if you could come back later after we've eliminated some that'd be great, thanks.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And apparently you have no interest in doing so.

And how do you come to this conclusion?

~~
I understand your argument, you made that call at C so everything after C is irrelevant to determine how genuine you were there and especially what I asked the other players about (A) is even more irrelevant.

That is wrong because a) you continued to stay in the game after C and had the opportunity to change your mind about or re-examine C at any time, which you are more likely to do if you were genuine there especially if I give you food for thought by showing you different perspectives from mine and yours and b) A and C are connected, if a third party comes along and agrees with me that A is scummy, then me asking you about it in B is legitimate so your reaction in C becomes more likely to be a fallacious appeal to the people done as a cover-up.

#600 seems skeptical about the ability to know anyone else's beliefs. I also don't feel like you've interacted with me or anyone else in a fashion that shows any curiosity in whether I believe C or was making things up, while you certainly have looked for evidence that I was wrong about point C.

~~

And no, my point is right; everything after point C is irrelevant to whether I was genuine about point C, that's literally how time works. Things after point C could be relevant to new points, say for example point F, have I or have I not gone back and re-assed my comments in point C in light of new evidence.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Exactly. What I particularly didn't like was how he tried to push that you were opportunistic scum because only you found his post weird. I can't see why anyone wouldn't find it weird anyway; maybe the reason why only those who have replaced in since found it weird was because we read the thread objectively, whereas others were so engrossed in their arguing that they didn't really notice anything out of the ordinary.

Fuck, I hate to do this but GM, I know we didn't play together much but could you please tell these space cadets that my first post isn't weird. What horrifying reality have I entered where levity and brevity are sins.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

(for example, in the post you say you townread drealmerz based on his joke post. I took your claimed "townread" on him to be a joke, like his original post. But then you later say that you do townread him for that reason. How was his joke at all alignment indicative?)

Here's the issue, why are you just asking this question of me now? Both you and copper don't bother talking with me, don't bother asking specific questions; you label my post weird and/or scummy and that get further baffled when I attack that. If you were actually interested in the answer to this question, this wouldn't be the first time you brought it up.

It's not like DDD is obliged to immediately respond when someone calls him out. If he was scum he could have mulled and made up something truly plausible and take his own sweet time.

Let's turn this around; if he was town, what motivation would he have for townreading people based on jokes, and then attacking people when they said it was rather weird? To me that reads like scum trying to cover up for their mistake.

Because it is possible to townread someone for a joke and I try not to make up reasons why I think someone is town or scum when I have real ones?

Iron is giving reads, posting in an entertaining fashion I am perfectly fine with if there is substance.

There isn't.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It wasn't the first time I brought it up; I was talking about it around the time when you were suggesting that copper was scum because only he thought your post was weird.

You brought it up once, in the same context of not getting my initial post which I probably interpreted at the time as more hostile than it was and then never followed up.

Explain why you found his joke towny (or AI at all for that matter) because nobody else is seeing it.

No, you and copper apparently can't see it, I have no idea what iron does or does not see and no one else seems to think it's a strange position. But newb-scum have two possible routes they go, they either are lost about how to fake scum hunt and their biggest priority is failing into the background where no one notices them and they can let their partner do the heavy lifting or they chime in to promote a town/town fight, they do not crack jokes unrelated to anything else that would draw attention more attention to them. Or, they know how to fake scum hunt and they are very good and very thorough projecting the right image of industrious scumhunting, however, they almost always lack levity because they're focused on their act and thus don't tell unrelated jokes. A joke like that comes from someone who is very comfortable in their position and new scum almost never is.

~~

@Dragon
How about 648 and 649?

Good joke.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well, I've been through his ISO and looked at various posts again, and to be honest I'm still leaning scum on him. While I did like his explanation of the townread on drealmerz, I feel that an experienced scum could just have thought that up eventually. The fact that he never explained it earlier (which could have prevented the whole debacle) might mean that he was struggling to come up with a reason, as scum. So my vote will stay where it is, because I really can't see who else I'd lynch today other than him.

Hey you know that thing I was basing my case on, I was wrong but despite a lack of evidence here's some slander because I'm too lazy to put in real helpful effort.

~~

@mod:

we could really use that replacement we were promised.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Don't forget the part where my initial post is scummy for not explaining everything in minute detail and then when it's explained logically suddenly I just made up those reasons despite the fact that I pretty clearly was willing to go to the mat for the post. So the argument is that as scum, I made up a bunch of nonsense, then instead of treating it as a joke defended that nonsense aggressively, and only later came up with exact reasons that match my initial post. For reasons, I really can't fathom what advantage I would gain from doing this but motivations don't matter in dragon-world. Oh wait, the reason is that Dragon doesn't want to break the wagon he's on despite it going from bad to shite.

~~

Its the replacements fault no gifs fault imo

No, he properly replaced dreal, then the replacement flaked/dreal showed up again but that was a week ago. Even if he gave dreal the benefit of the doubt about him not flaking again he should've worked to replace him three days ago when it was clear that he'd flaked... again.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

There's literally no way that anyone should have ironstove as a top-3 townread.

Explain.

Politics.

Jae is not a town read of mine.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I think copper was barking up the wrong fucking thing anyway and dragging on something that DDD already answered sufficiently. I can certainly see why ppl are scumreading copper for it but I'll be honest here I just can't read copper reliably til D3.

The more pertinent issue to me is that DDD came across as sheeping GL without trying to appear like he was sheeping him.

Slightly unfair question, but you can't seriously plan on giving copper a pass till D3 every time you play with him just because you can't reliably read him till then, right? If you can see why others find him scummy and certainly find him in the wrong and you seem to lack strong direction isn't that time to make a move on that if there ever is one?

And I wouldn't say I sheeped GL, I certainly found his initial posts solid (and you'll obviously disagree but whatever) but my initial vote was PoEd to whoever had legit votes. If copper or asty had two real votes on them at that point I would've voted for them to try and get some pressure going, I realize the second vote on someone isn't much pressure but it's better than one vote on someone. But as soon as copper started his shitty "reaction test" you'll note I moved my vote because he pushed himself into the lead for scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You're dodging the fact that you seem unwilling to push the wagon.

That's because I've taken apart every argument they've actually brought up; you can see how desperate he is to get traction because he plans to bring up things oncilla said (probably because oncilla isn't here to defend their arguments any more).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VOTE: dragon

Opportunistic vote

VOTE: dragon

I actually had moved him slightly ahead of copper lately on my preferred scum list but I didn't want to break what little momentum we had, big fan of this.

guys can we stop w/the associatives before flips thing???????

+1

I keep rereading the last few pages but I don't see anything new I want to say that hasn't been covered. It feels like things are dragging things out while we're in stasis waiting for a replacement and a deadline.

Dragonfire noting that DDD's reasons for townreading drealmerz, yet still sticking to his scumread when I expressed a willingness to join that wagon looks like opportunistic play. I'd go for Dragonfire but I don't think Accountant-Dragonfire makes sense as a team, so my view of the game isn't fitting together perfectly

I'm interested, what would you have thought if I'd decided to go back on my scumread on DDD and unvote after his post?

That you were actually interested in the truth instead of a convenient lynch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So first off, the style dragon chosen is immensely annoying to deal with. I could quote strip back the whole thing but his post is already unbearably long and responding in kind would be the worst thing in the world so instead let me try and tease out what narrative threads I can from his post.

1) My first post - now he's claiming to "have no particular problem with the levity, brevity and quick catch-up style of his post" but remember, he had no issue enabling copper by calling it weird and claiming to not understand it earlier. Maybe he "got it" at some point between then and now but it was mighty convenient at the time to keep copper harassing me and it was a fucking catch-up post, it's not exactly rocket science, what is there to get?

2) My read on dreal - "My issue is that he didn't explain it right away, only when he was under pressure with three votes on him, at L-2. I just don't see this kind of behaviour coming from a townie who assumes everyone understands his townread on drealmerz. Personally I try and explain my reads, and if asked I will explain further. But to everyone except DDD, that joke looked NAI, so I can't understand why he assumed we would understand it instantly." What is this shit? Dreal was under absolutely no pressure at that point, giving a paragraph lecture about how the people who aren't calling him scum shouldn't call him scum is a waste of time. Further, I like how I'm supposed to be able to psychically anticipate that other people are going to take umbrage with a town-read on a player who isn't being pressured. Finally, later he comes back to this read and just comes up with the absolute dumbest shit, he doubles down in his completely asinine theory that despite the fact that I said dreal was town and linked it to his joke in my initial post, never implied I wasn't dead serious about that, and then stated an argument that is completely logical even if people don't agree with it that I apparently completely came up with my argument on the spot only because I was pressured. In what reality does this make sense?

3) My initial vote - "It's almost as if he didn't want to vote someone who currently had no votes on them." Given that I said I was voting for whoever had the most serious votes among my top three multiple times, well reasoned Inspector Clouseau.

4)

One of the scummiest things I've seen from him. As I've mentioned before, DDD is calling him scum for being "the odd one out". Not everyone else "got" his post, and saying that is just arrogance. In fact, this is quite hypocritical as it was DDD who went on the attack rather than explaining his thought processes.

All of this is, of course, based on the assumption that copper's attack on DDD was a reaction test and that copper is town, both of which I am fairly sure of.

There are only two people who took umbrage with my initial post. Copper, who now claims it was a reaction test and you, who claimed to believe him and who enabled him but now you've claimed to come to the realization that it was just a perfectly normal catch up post. How am I not vindicated here? There's no one left legitimately claiming there's an issue with my first post and yet somehow my arrogance and attacks are unjustified when it's clear that you or copper or both of you were full of it.

5) Amished tell - "just looks opportunistic". Child, please Oh and because he might decide me saying child, please is scummy here is evidence of me regularly using the expression... Child, please

6) Whining about me voting for him - I'm not voting for you because you're voting for me, I'm voting for you because asty was scummy and because I don't believe your arguments are made in good faith. Notice how I do my best to ignore the windowlicker that is ironstove? I think he's brain damaged town and while it would feel really good to break his neck, I learned long ago that if you want to win you need to lynch scum, not idiots.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Nah there was a very good point there in Dragon's case, why write the Drealmerz read off as a joke

(The rest of you should read again carefully 375 and his reply to my point d).)

then accept that others view it as a joke as many mentioned without mentioning that it's a real read in reply

and only later, when pressed and wagoned come up with the explanation in 665?

That's bullshit, it's changing the narrative to depending on the circumstances which likely means there likely was no real read to begin with.

If that's how you meant what I replied to in 375, that's not how I read it. My response was supposed to confirm that reading my comment as a joke was a mistake, that you were finally getting that it was a legitimate reason for town reading dreal.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yes, but at the time you wrote this DDD had not responded to the case, so I thought it was quite an odd thing to say.

She thought you case sucked because it did, but it'd be bad form for her to point out why before I did. Not odd at all.

Okay. I never said that you should have explained it all in your first post. I said that a townie, upon being accused of making up nonsensical reasons to townread someone, should have instantly posted their thought process. You weren't supposed to anticipate it; it was how you responded to copper that looked scummy. The delay in posting it does make me think that scum!you initially tried to brush off the fact that you didn't have a reason for the townread, by just accusing copper rather than actually responding to him. Then when pressured and in danger of a lynch you came up with some reasons. Look, I know that someone as experienced as you would have no problem at all in fabricating something like that, so that doesn't fool me.

See this is where your argument completely falls apart and in such an obvious fashion. The simple question of why? Why would I post a read without having a reason behind it? Because I can come up with an explanation on the fly? Then why not assume I had already done that? Because it's inconvenient for your argument. You're trying to portray me as a genius who can spin anything after the fact but also as an idiot who posts imaginary reads for no benefit other than I can. It's bafflingly incoherent and still manages to lack any scummy motivation.

No, you're not voting iron because nobody else would support a wagon on him. You know that I'm scumread by most of the player base and you're going to take advantage of that to avoid a wagon on you.

No, I thought ST was town (see my first post) and I thought your slot was decent odds for scum (see my first post) and I've seen continued scummy behavior from you since (see my posts since then) and a bunch of dumb from iron (see my posts since then). But thanks for trying to tell me what I think about the game even when it contrasts with everything I've actually thought and posted.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

There is literally zero evidence that I made my arguments up on the fly. There is actual evidence of me giving reasons for my reads in my first post. There are actual points about Asty, ST, and Accountant. This idea that I would read the game, give legitimate reasons for reads in most places, then in another case give a read linked to a post (and admittedly under explain it) and somehow not mean what I said figuring that I could fill in the gaps later is crazy. There's literally no benefit for the suggested behavior, as town or scum. There's literally no evidence that's what I did and there's plenty of evidence that I said what I meant and meant what I said. The whole line of discussion is nonsense and dragon and copper act like I'm not justified when I get pissed with their amazing tag team act where one of them slags me with bad arguments and the other does their best to enable them.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You justified that line of inquiry yourself when you said the following:

My first real post in the game is clearly not intended to be a serious case on anyone, it was a series of things that caught my eye to show my thought process

That doesn't match up well with your latest.

Do you really have no sense of nuance? No ability to fill in the gaps? There's a very obvious argument here. Surprise me, make my argument for me, prove to me you can think critically.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Do you really have no sense of nuance? No ability to fill in the gaps? There's a very obvious argument here. Surprise me, make my argument for me, prove to me you can think critically.

I have no interest in excusing your behavior for you by providing explanations based on possible arguments like Accountant and GM have been doing, give it yourself and if it's obvious most of town will recognize that's likely the case.

Nah, I'm done with your game of gotcha bullshit and pretty much you entirely. If someone else has an issue with it then I'll take it up with them but I think everyone who isn't already voting for me can look at it and see the obvious answer; not my fault you're not a serious thinker.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@GM, if there a reason you're sitting your vote on copper right now instead of joining in on the dragon pivot?

And this will seem cruel because it is, but is there a reason you insist on talking to iron like he's people? Several people have asked him to participate in a useful fashion and he just doubles down on the same nonsense, why do you think this time you'll actually get a worthwhile response?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

My initial read of DDD is Town. I still don't get the copper/Dragon tag team. Just seems "too scummy to be scum." I'm almost sure one of them is scum. The argument is just so convoluted. It doesn't feel natural (to me).

I'll disagree with Accountant and agree the too scummy to be scum is a thing and while I wouldn't say copper/Dragon have achieved that, the way they've been operating as a tag team feels very strange. Personally I'm more inclined towards one of (copper/Dragon) with a teammate sitting a bit off to the side in (Jae/GL) but there is a possibility that Dragon replaced in and felt the need to help his buddy make his point and then figuring they'd already linked each other they just embraced it hoping to draw the exact argument that scum wouldn't link that closely together. There's even a little bit of suggestive evidence for the latter theory with copper's weird little jaunt into suspecting Dragon for like five seconds until Dragon posted the exact same arguments we'd seen before.

A. Dragon's at, like, L-2. Also, I'm B. not in any hurry and C. still hoping that a copper wagon somehow happens.

Explain to me the big preference for copper over Dragon?

I know he's capable of participating, so maybe, if I do the same thing over and over again, eventually I'll get a different result.

I mean I know you were invoking it yourself but that's the "definition" of insanity.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Given that it's unlikely they're both Scum, Dragon seems the more likely of the two to be Town (albeit very silly Town) than copper does.

But that's not a reason, you just flipped the question I asked; I wanted an explanation, a why.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It's totally different: they're equally likely to be Scum, probably both aren't, but Dragon is more likely to be Town.
When I put myself in his shoes, I can see where a townie could have posted some of that silliness. I can't say the same for copper.

Only in mafia does this sort of argument make any sense (and it does). What sort of silliness?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If you are town you should start with my ISO, I have a strong feeling that since there are a lot of posts in there you skimmed it.

*Snort* And whose fault was that?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The you-scum case that they put forward, for instance.
copper backed down; Dragon didn't.

Sure, but couldn't that equally mean that copper actually thought about the game and realized how bad the arguments were when someone else made them? And conversely that Dragon made those arguments because he expected to have backup from copper and not out of good faith?

In post 894, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:

In post 851, jon_h61 wrote:
My initial read of DDD is Town. I still don't get the copper/Dragon tag team. Just seems "too scummy to be scum." I'm almost sure one of them is scum. The argument is just so convoluted. It doesn't feel natural (to me).

I'll disagree with Accountant and agree the too scummy to be scum is a thing and while I wouldn't say copper/Dragon have achieved that, the way they've been operating as a tag team feels very strange.

Personally I'm more inclined towards one of (copper/Dragon) with a teammate sitting a bit off to the side in (Jae/GL)

but there is a possibility that Dragon replaced in and felt the need to help his buddy make his point and then figuring they'd already linked each other they just embraced it hoping to draw the exact argument that scum wouldn't link that closely together. There's even a little bit of suggestive evidence for the latter theory with copper's weird little jaunt into suspecting Dragon for like five seconds until Dragon posted the exact same arguments we'd seen before.

A) Too scummy to be scum is not a thing. Scummy looking people can just be scum. The end.
B) The way copper/Dragon have been acting is more indicative of not being partners than anything. You're not analyzing. You're jumping through so many hoops to try to make that theory work instead of actually evaluating the plausibility that it's fucking astounding.
C) Your "reads" with partnerships are now bad enough to actually be AI.

A) And they also can not be scum. I'm not saying it's an absolute but I think there are times to apply it.
B+C) Please read my post, I'm not inclined to agree with the argument I even made, I was just seeing if there could be a logical process to the pairing and there is, I do think it's less likely than the alternative however.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

opportunistic intent to hammer

You know he's lying to you, right?

VOTE: copper

At least let someone who might be scum in GL make the mistake of lynching me instead of wasting your credibility on it. Or maybe he'll make the right decision and we'll actually get a scum lynch today.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I dont like it when I say intent to hammer and the guy responds with ate

And I don't like it when you say intent to hammer just because you can. Guess we don't always get what we want. I'm just pointing out that if you don't act like an idiot, there's still a chance we get what we need.

More importantly he doesn't claim, and as DGB would say, that is scum play.

A claim should always be a last resort. I don't believe I'm at that point yet.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Obviously not, if you are a town PR the last thing you want is for someone to randomly hammer you while you hesitate.

DDD is trying to buy time, then if forced he will claim VT and that he did not want to help scum by narrowing the PR pool.

No one is going to randomly hammer, the impulsive idiots are already all voting for me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I am on the phone so I can't post back that Taylor Swift GIF you sent me but consider it my reply.

Jennifer Lawrence, stop embarrassing yourself.

Also, unlike some people I don't pretend to give up to pander to people's emotions. I know I really should pour on the theatrics instead of acting like the same old arrogant jerk I am but that's who I am and it's how I play. I am going to get Accountant to hold his position, I am going to get GL to lynch you, and I'm going to enjoy your name flipping red.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, why the switch from Dragon to copper?

Well I mean the first obvious underlying issue is that I'm town and I know my lynch is a failure for the town. At this point avoiding my lynch is a bigger priority than sorting which of copper and Dragon is marginally more scummy. You don't express yourself in a fashion that I can clearly interpret clear preferences from you, but I know that Jon has a clear preference for copper and I'm not sure GM would move off copper even if it meant my lynch or a no lynch at this point. GL is certainly not the person I wanted to have to rely on but I think it's easier for one person to do the right thing rather than three. And time is the biggest factor both for all of us and me in particular, I'm driving three hours to Louisville tonight after work and playing Magic all day tomorrow. If you think Dragon is a more likely lynch than Copper, feel free to move your vote and I will move mine back and do my best to pull Jon and GM with us in the little time I have but time is of the essence.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Final notes for GL about why a copper lynch is the right thing to do:

1) He's throttling the life out of the town. I have a hard time believing he's that oblivious to what he's done and what he's doing but he's posting the town to death. He has more posts than you and the second highest player combined and they're not just posts that are cheap and easy to read. You can see me and GM and other players all get frustrated with him drowning the town that's let this permanent malaise set in.

2) I replaced into the game with a jaunty catch up post and he immediately started attacking it for awful reasons. "I had to be addressing Jae as if he was town because I gave a two word answer that refuted the argument he made in a post but I had him as a possible scum read." But don't worry he later clued us in that it was just a reaction test; the classic refuge of a scoundrel. "Oh I didn't mean those awful arguments I made since I got called out on them, I was just testing you." And what were the conclusions that he drew from his reaction test? Well, I was scum for a while for vague reasons and then I wasn't and now I am again.

3) He votes Dragon, calls me town and omits me from his top three scum reads and then three seconds later he's back voting for me because Dragon AtE'd a bit. What nonsense, he doesn't sincerely believe anything at this point in the game, it's all a show.

4) Your first strong read was Jae-scum, your last strong read was Dragon-scum. iron is a paste eater of the highest consumption levels. Are those really the players you think you should be voting with?

It's time to do the right thing.

~~

Might be able to check in via phone much later tonight but no guarantees. Please don't fuck this up, town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD - 1001 makes it sound like you think copper is scum. 1007 makes it sound like you don't really have a preference between copper/Dragon. What's the deal?

1001 is mostly braggadocio; I think Dragon is slightly more likely scum; but I don't think his lynch can happen today. I think copper is very scummy and is still a very good lynch today.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Maybe some PR coaching might help you as well:

- If there is a JK, throw a coin and JK one of GL and DDD. Out if no kill happens.

- If there is a tracker, throw a coin and track one of GL and DDD. Out if you get a track on GL, wait and see if DDD is lynched anyway before outing if that's who you land on.

- If there is a doc, save Jae.

- If there is a cop, cop DDD (don't be a hero and go for GL immediately, but if DDD is getting lynched anyway, something that I hope even the drooling trio will recognize as necessary, don't out and push with the rest).

Good luck Dragon and ironstove in your mafiascum adventures!

VOTE: DDD

VOTE: Jae

~~

I also want to shoot back at something from yesterday. Jae was bitching about one of the points I made, "that's just copper plays" was his answer to my objections to how copper was hurting the town with his playstyle. And it seemed to form a lot of the backbone of his copper read. So he's going to establish individual meta as extremely important, but what are the odds he's gone back and reviewed mine? He hasn't or he'd be touting the exact same thing about me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Scum pushed copper because he's a threat. DDD is now practically confscum based off that.

I mean this is self-evidently bullshit. I've never played with copper. I don't know who is good and who is bad unless I played with them 2 years ago. This town player pushed copper because he came after me with awful arguments that I doubted the sincerity of and because he had an anti-town playstyle.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

GL basically broadcasted to everyone that he's mafia, he's confirmed scum at this point, the only reason the guy wouldn't hammer DDD over copper is because DDD is scum.

The copper flip gave us enough information at this point to know who is town and who is scum.

JUST VOTE DDD AND IF HE FLIPS MAF THEN KILL GL. IT'S THAT EASY PEOPLE.

Had D1 not gone the way it had gone, I wouldn't have gotten such a strong scum read on GL today, so copper's lynch isn't the worst thing that happened.

DDD or GL - Either of these two will be my lynch today.

Loving the ouroborus of logic here. GL is scum because he hammered Copper instead of his scum buddy Triple D. Triple D is scum because GL-scum hammered Copper instead. But hey, you haven't made a coherent argument before, so why start now?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I agree. The only reason that I'm not voting DDD right now is because he's at L-1 and I'd prefer to discuss and converse some more before the hammer.

In the interest of honesty; stupid, stupid honesty. I don't believe I'm at L-1. Iron, Jae, and Accountant are voting for me as far as I can tell. There are 8 alive, that means 5 to lynch, L-2.

~~

Personally I feel that anyone who read copper's final reads post and still claimed to scumread him was either extremely confbiased or scum themselves.

I look forward to the day when you come up against a Scum who's really good at AtE.

~~

Any reason for this other than OMGUS?

Of course. He quoted copper's post. He did that for a reason.

A) Invoking dead town players for cred is just tacky (admittedly irrelevant I just wanted to point it out).
B) He's assuming that whatever power roles we have followed copper's plan and someone has something on me (but there's no reason to assume this, town doesn't listen to dead town all the time, I certainly wouldn't have listened to copper's plan for one which means he's glomming on to this unsafe assumption as cover to push a wagon he already knew would develop, that's scum behavior).
C) He's representing a power role and action that indicts me (as I know I'm town, I know this is bullshit and really only makes sense from scum).
D) Mystery door (there's a goat behind it).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Of course. He quoted copper's post. He did that for a reason.

A) Invoking dead town players for cred is just tacky (admittedly irrelevant I just wanted to point it out).
B) He's assuming that whatever power roles we have followed copper's plan and someone has something on me (but there's no reason to assume this, town doesn't listen to dead town all the time, I certainly wouldn't have listened to copper's plan for one which means he's glomming on to this unsafe assumption as cover to push a wagon he already knew would develop, that's scum behavior).
C) He's representing a power role and action that indicts me (as I know I'm town, I know this is bullshit and really only makes sense from scum).
D) Mystery door (there's a goat behind it).

Of course you wouldn't have listened to his plan if you're town. Also, copper did share all his thoughts with us before he died so I doubt Jae is scum hoping to get towncred by invoking his name. Anyway, that would be only possible if you were scum too...

VOTE: DDD

Next time you're just going to gargle some random nonsense that doesn't relate to what I said don't bother quoting my posts please and thanks.

I've never thought of Scumcho as AtE-heavy but I suppose YMMV.

--

Fine; intent to hammer DDD in ~18 hours' time.

Why? I'm so freaking dispirited. There's nothing to argue about and no one seemingly to persuade, I'm getting run up for fucking nothing. I refuted Dragon's terrible initial arguments, iron has never made anything resembling an argument, Jae is fucking free riding on copper's green flip, and Accountant doesn't appear to post actual arguments either. I'm getting voted because I had votes yesterday and because copper was wrong about me, come the fuck on.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm not following this either, DDD literally voted his counterwagon at deadline. The people pushing copper were goodmorning, jon, and Accountant.

You're saying DDD didn't push copper or want him lynched? Give me a break.

I was fine with a copper lynch, it wasn't just a survival play but I preferred your lynch.

Yea forget this I'm lynching DDD and I don't care what you say GL

Make your case. I believe Jae believes his read (but I think he's wrong). I don't know your case on anyone really. You just seem to go with the flow.

@ anyone scum reading DDD, please make a concise case. I think he's Town.

There's no point asking iron to make a case, he's incapable of doing so fyi.

Why don't you give us some reasons why he's town? If you want reasons why he's scum, read most of what copper and I said yesterday with regards to him, then ask yourself why there would be two L-1 wagons on D1, both on townies, and nobody switching for ages until GL delivered the hammer.

It wasn't forever, it was like a day and why would scum need to change their mind? Changing your mind and lynching a townie looks awful, look how much shit everyone is giving GL for it. Why would scum who were safely ensconced on their wagons of choice feel the need to do anything when GL was going to have to decide and take the fall for them?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It wasn't forever, it was like a day and why would scum need to change their mind? Changing your mind and lynching a townie looks awful, look how much shit everyone is giving GL for it. Why would scum who were safely ensconced on their wagons of choice feel the need to do anything when GL was going to have to decide and take the fall for them?

So you're implying that you know GL is town... only scum know others' alignment for sure. You might have slipped there.

No I'm saying there's a very credible scenario where GL is town and the two wagons at the end of the day yesterday were on town players. There is also a scenario where GL is scum and the two wagons at the end of the day yesterday were on town players but I think if that were the case then he would've just voted for me because it would've been easier and he would've had less attention focused on him. Hence why I only presented the first scenario, because I find it more likely.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If GL is scum and you are town, then it would have been equally easy for him to hammer either of you, because the town-flip of one would lead the rest of the town into lynching the other the next day. So don't use that in your defense, because I'm absolutely sure that if you'd been lynched and flipped town then everyone would be on copper today like a flash, no questions asked

** Of course, I'm not including myself in this.

Bullshit, you and JAe represented absolutely no interest in a copper lynch regardless of what I flipped and it's impossible to predict what iron would do because the only thing he'll do is drone the words "Danny is scum" over and over.

But that's irrelevant to the point I made. Lynching copper drew eyes to GL, it brought him attention. We've been over this before and scum usually don't want to be in the limelight, lynching copper put him in the limelight while lynching me would've avoided it because it would've been more consistent with his past statements. Hence why I think he's more likely town than scum and why I presented my scenario in such a fashion.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It wasn't forever, it was like a day and why would scum need to change their mind? Changing your mind and lynching a townie looks awful, look how much shit everyone is giving GL for it. Why would scum who were safely ensconced on their wagons of choice feel the need to do anything when GL was going to have to decide and take the fall for them?

So you're implying that you know GL is town... only scum know others' alignment for sure. You might have slipped there.

Jae

- thoughts on this post?

Why do you care what Jae thinks?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

That's just three players though. If you got lynched and flipped town, the five people on copper's wagon yesterday would have lynched him today.

And with copper alive in this hypothetical world that's four, enough to block any lynch. Furthermore, "my" block of people is actually trying to game solve, you see Accountant defect, you see Jon voting a bit scattershot early, while "your" block of people entrench and refuse to be useful.

That could be true... but only if you're town, which I think you're not. So in the unlikely case that you do end up flipping town, I'll come back to this.

You present bad argument about why I have to be scum because I was the other wagon yesterday. I refute scenario by presenting a perfectly logical premise where I'm town. You whine that my scenario "knows" another player's alignment and misdirect. I give another possible scenario with their alignment flipped and explain why I find the first scenario likely and the second less likely. You then post the above which is the rhetorical equivalent of "nuh uh". Do I think you're actually trying to game solve, no.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

becoz it's obvious that you work alone

He also drinks alone. But that's only indicative of being George Thorogood, not alignment.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I know you're town, and you said to lynch DDD. GM is town who kinda wants to sheep Jae. Jae wants to lynch DDD. DDD is in the scum bucket. Only logical conclusion, really.

But seriously, this just seems like you dementedly scribbled a bunch of arrows on a page from one name to another and claimed it meant something.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm only willing to vote three people today. You're one of them, and a popular wagon. My townreads also want to vote you. The dead flipped townie did too.

I hope you see why I'm voting you.

I mean I certainly understand a PoE process, my first post largely featured one, I don't object to GM doing the same. But as surely as I don't object to a PoE don't you think "big wagon, townreads" is pretty lazy and a potential recipe for disaster. Let's say for some reason that I do get lynched today, I'll flip green. I'm sure you'll be all gung-ho about GL/Dragon but if that's not the exact scum team then we're probably fucked. Shouldn't today be about getting it right even if it's just within that PoE and not about doing whatever is easier?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

if you're town then scumteam is gl/dragon

everyone else is town

Scum must've gotten some pretty strong power roles if we drew the quad-cop.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VOTE: dargon

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Has anyone other than GM and me noticed that Dargon just restates his argument a lot in lieu of doing something useful after it gets taken apart? And that it's immensely frustrating.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If you're talking about me, then stop throwing shade because nobody's "taken my argument apart" unless you count GM going "Nah, no, too reachy" to all of my posts in that rubbish wall of hers.

Bruh, I already took apart your narratives yesterday. Well enough that copper of all people abandoned you until you copied copper's ATE and copper was a sucker for anyone who played like him. Then GM decided to take your arguments apart line by line. And then I killed your latest argument where you claimed that X meant I had to be scum, but I provided scenarios Y and Z where I could be town and you don't bother arguing why Y or Z aren't likely beyond blandly restating that you think I'm scum.

And the embarrassing thing is that you're the only one pretending to try, you're getting decimated but iron doesn't even try to make arguments, Jae just points at copper like copper knew wtf he was doing and even worse Accountant just points at Jae like Jae knows what he's doing. If this is representative of the current state of the site, it's horrific.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

OK switch to gl

VOTE: GL

iron, you're trying to compromise with the wrong people. Bouncing between lynches dargon and Jae find acceptable but less acceptable than my own isn't going to push things to five votes. You need to come and talk with the people you're voting for, accept that you may be mistaken about them, let us show you that you are misguided and together we can push things forward.

Oh and Dargon, I'm done with you. I was only arguing with you trying to get Accountant or iron to see how awful and scummy your arguments were and how there's literally no argument that holds up against me but clearly it hasn't worked; so since you only argue in bad faith and I don't want to engage in that particular theater of the damned anymore, adios.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

come and talk with the people you're voting for, accept that you may be mistaken about them, let us show you that you are misguided and together we can push things forward.

iron/DDD scum team?

Sure, did the same thing for GL, did something similar for GM.

Holy shit guys, I've figured it out. I'm not mafia. I'm a cult leader. And apparently a very fast working one since I've already got two minions under my control and now with my inevitable pull on iron we're taking over. What a weird setup for a newbie game, cult leaders and quad-cops. Remarkable.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

goodmorning, "Debonair Danny DiPietro don't be silly"

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Examine her mule-like behavior on D1 refusing to lynch her partner DDD on D1, then switching over to copper, saying I will lynch only 'copper' indicating copper is her strongest scum read, now she is trying her hardest to lynch another

town

Hey dargon.

There's something specific that nearly confirms DDD is Town, but I can't tell you what it is because telling you would be much worse play than not telling you.

That's it. I'm not saying any more about it.

It was me linking to the George Thorogood song wasn't it? Who could scum read me after that.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Since there's a high likelihood of DDD being lynched today, you should share what you think, but only if intent is given to hammer DDD.

Why is there a high likelihood of me being lynched? You think my crew is more likely to break than your crew. Nuh uh, our crew stands strong.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Examine her mule-like behavior on D1 refusing to lynch her partner DDD on D1, then switching over to copper, saying I will lynch only 'copper' indicating copper is her strongest scum read, now she is trying her hardest to lynch another

town

Hey dargon.

You're just spelling my name that way to annoy me. And yeah, I agree that that could be a slip.

What, would I do that? I'll actually give you this answer for free. Yes, I would absolutely do that.

Okay, so now the scumteam is me and iron because we've both scumslipped, right?

And second, how did you miss this slip, you found my slip to be very important and you even quoted the post that you're saying iron slipped in but you missed it...

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So it's funny that Dargon is crying about the lack of a case on him when his last post nearly perfectly illustrates that he's a fish swimming in a sea of scumminess and he he's so normalized it he doesn't even recognize it.

Also, because I think iron is town, I'm not looking very closely at stuff he says, particularly given the kind of player he is.

Back in my day we'd call this tunneling but frankly I'm loving the new terminology. Failure or lack of interest in game solving, check.

The difference is that iron's "slip" was literally that he said I was town. As he thinks the scum team is you/gm, as he was saying in his post, by extension he is assuming that everyone else is town

Note, that I'm voting for Dragon. And the first thing I did today was vote for Jae. Also note that I never backed away from calling Jae scum only recognizing that a Dragon lynch was preferred by my compatriots. Such that if I had to call a team right now it'd be Dragon/Jae and it should be readily obvious to all that's been my read basically all day. This by the exact same logic that Dargon is applying means there should be no problem with me "calling" GL town but Dargon isn't interested in truth, he's only interested in twisting whatever he can get his hands on to make me seem scummy.

About why I scumread DDD, it's quite extensive. I found his attacks on copper for what I saw as quite reasonable posts, scummy.

Remember what copper was attacking me for, my opening post. A post that Dargon now claims was a perfectly normal catch-up post. But notice how he never goes back to update his thinking with that knowledge? My defending myself from copper attacking a perfectly reasonable post is somehow scummy. It's a breathtaking inconsistency only serving to keep pushing a bad wagon on me.

since I townread everyone on the DDD wagon today, I feel that if DDD was town then scum wouldn't be deliberately splitting the vote like this and would instead be concentrating on the easier lynch (which is in this case DDD, since IMO only townies are voting him right now).

Finally look at how precise he words everything. This isn't how people naturally talk, it's a bunch of ass covering to make sure he can't be attacked for an irrational position.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I missed this post. How was my post a scum slip? I said GM is trying to lynch dragon, dragon is town....... GM tried to lynch copper, with her scummy post 'i'm only gonna lynch copper, i won't listen to anyone trying to reason with me'

now it's the same with today, she's tunneling another town, and it's not the type of behavior i would expect from an IC in a newbie game, it's acceptable for me because i'm in a newbie slot, but the rest of you guys are BLIND.

It wasn't, or at least I don't think so because I, and other sane individuals, don't believe you need to add seven "IMOs" and "likelies" to every single post we make to cover our asses but Dargon made this exact same argument about a post I made. So I'm busy hosting Dargon by his own sloppily made petard.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Why do you think Jae is scum? And it wasn't readily obvious to me at least; you also didn't specifically include it in the post referencing GL, in which, in fact, you were considering me being town.

Bruh, I know you're not even trying but this is a new low.

A) You even asked me why I was voting for Jae in 1103 and I answered in 1104. And yeah in 1104, point 1 was NAI, and point 4 was a joke but points 2/3 were serious as a heart attack. So of everyone else in the game with the possible exception of Jae himself you should be most aware of my opinion that Jae is scum but you're not interested in the truth.

B) "you also didn't specifically include it in the post referencing GL, in which, in fact, you were considering me being town." This in reference to 1129. In 1129 I said, "I was fine with a copper lynch, it wasn't just a survival play but

I preferred your lynch

." And said absolutely nothing that can be misconstrued as me considering you were town. You are such a liar.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I just don't believe in what you believe in.

A thing called love?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

GM, what was the point of posting "DDD is town because of [thing]"? Do you think you have some particular credibility with someone who is voting for me that a relatively blank statement would sway them? Are you actually feeling pressure to justify yourself and do you think your answer adequately justifies yourself to that pressure? Enlighten me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@iron, please see below about why it's very clear that we should lynch Dragon.

Of course I'm interested in the truth, and you can't say I'm not trying.

I can absolutely say that; look below in this same post where you admit to not paying attention to the arguments I'm making. You're already admitted to not paying anywhere near full attention to iron. I've correctly brought up that your opinion on me should've changed after your opinion about my initial post seemingly changed because I shouldn't be faulted for someone attacking a normal, catch-up post and it hasn't you only retrench instead of reevaluate. Those are not the actions of someone who is dynamically evaluating the game, those are the actions of scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

GM, what was the point of posting "DDD is town because of [thing]"? Do you think you have some particular credibility with someone who is voting for me that a relatively blank statement would sway them? Are you actually feeling pressure to justify yourself and do you think your answer adequately justifies yourself to that pressure? Enlighten me.

It's new. I didn't notice it until recently, right around when I started caring again.

Is newness on its own worthy of a post? Especially when you say something cryptic, you have to know that people are going to be interested.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@iron, please see below about why it's very clear that we should lynch Dragon.

Of course I'm interested in the truth, and you can't say I'm not trying.

I can absolutely say that; look below in this same post where you admit to not paying attention to the arguments I'm making. You're already admitted to not paying anywhere near full attention to iron. I've correctly brought up that your opinion on me should've changed after your opinion about my initial post seemingly changed because I shouldn't be faulted for someone attacking a normal, catch-up post and it hasn't you only retrench instead of reevaluate. Those are not the actions of someone who is dynamically evaluating the game, those are the actions of scum.

In #1290, I admitted to misrepping you because I mistook something you said a long time before for something else. That's an honest mistake, everyone does it. Re: iron, why should I nitpick every single one of his posts? I don't think he's scum, and he rarely posts anything in-depth, so I don't feel there's any point in it. Also, copper's attack on your post was a reaction test, and you failed it.

I can see why you might accuse me of not paying attention, but you can't say I'm not trying.

No, I still believe I can say that. If you were trying you would make fewer or no mistakes. If you were trying you'd demonstrate some curiosity about, ya know, something. For example, see how I questioned GM about her latest thing. I don't think she's scum but I'm still trying to figure out the game even as I think I have a good handle on it just in case I'm wrong. You? Nothing. Here, let me continue to demonstrate how town plays mafia so you can emulate it in your next game. How were copper's posts a reaction test and how did I fail it?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

How were copper's posts a reaction test and how did I fail it?

This should be obvious to you, but basically copper saying "DDD and GL are the scum team, confirmed!" was the reaction test. You replied by immediately voting copper and attacking him instantaneously, instead of actually asking him why he thought you were scum. That's failing a reaction test in my book.

See again, you get facts wrong. If copper's reaction test is limited to that post then the only thing I did in response is respond in kind with a vote and a pithy comment. I don't really use the phrase "reaction test" to describe anything I do because I think nearly everything is a reaction test. But my initial response was a reaction test even in a more limited sense of the expression to judge the veracity of copper's stance, to see if he was just throwing a brick at my head to see if I would duck... or if he really wanted to hit me in the head with a brick. It was only after that, when he started making bad arguments that I attacked him.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Even you [GM] re-evaluated

based off new evidence and flips. I'll also point out this:

The implication is that I have not re-evaluated based off new evidence and flips.

It's not that I'm not re-evaluating the gamestate. It's that I'm doing it away from the thread. I don't want to divulge my full reads. I don't feel like telling scum where to kill and where not to kill right now.

But just a few posts ago, Jae made the argument that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Of course he uses this argument to shield himself but doesn't care to extend it to me despite equal possibility of application.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It looks like we're going into a no lynch at this rate.

You could actually try to do the right thing for once instead of just screwing around. I want you to ignore everything else, ignore the wagon construction on both sides and go look at Dragon. He admitted he doesn't pay attention to you, hell he doesn't even pay attention to me and he claims I'm scum. Is that really town play? Go look at his play with a clear mind, no contaminating biases because scummy player X is voting for him or whatever just Dragon and I'm sure you'll wonder why you've been letting his play slide.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

(18 dollars and a can of Diet Dr. Pepper says he just comes back and votes me again instead of trying)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

copper wanted to see what you'd respond with. Since what you responded with made him think you were scum, he then decided his vote was in a good place. You overreacted to his statement, which was, in my opinion, quite clearly a reaction test, since someone as good / experienced as copper does not just say something like that completely seriously.

I overreacted? Copper was a drunk in a bar coming up to me because he didn't like the color of my shirt and going "You wanna go?" and I replied, "We can take this outside, sure" because I ain't afraid of no youngblood punk and then he threw some goofy savate kick that didn't work and I beat his ass. I also like how your argument flips around so neatly for me, "since someone as good / experienced as copper does not just

say something

vote rashly like that completely seriously". And yet you venerate copper who flipped town and vilify me.

This [bolded] is a misrep. What I said with regards to iron was that I don't finely read his posts looking for scumtells because I don't think he's scum.

You can't just twist my words and turn me saying "I didn't go back over one of your posts and so unwittingly misrepped you" into "he doesn't even pay attention to me." If I wasn't paying attention to you, I'd just literally ignore everything you said. In fact, having said that, I might just do that, since everything you post is just attempts to make others vote me, and scummy misreps and word-twisting. I'm done with this.

Semantics, by your own admission you are not paying attention to iron in a useful fashion and you only pay attention to me enough to try and score cheap points.

V/LA for ~a day.

Are you planning on playing Magic all day as well?

V/LA tomorrow

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I guess it's technically today. For clarity...

V/LA Saturday

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Alright, I'm pretty sure town lost. I have a feeling now that both DDD and dragon are towns. I don't know who is mafia anymore because this game has gone for so long, it's all a blur.

Who we lynching fam? If Dragon flips town, can we PLEASE kill DDD?

So from your perspective we should mislynch and then fuck it, double down on the mislynches?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, from Accountant's D2 play it's pretty easy to deduce that he had a scum result on DDD. He WK'd him and hard defended him on D1, but on D2 flipped and joined the DDD wagon alongside his former scumreads. Such a dramatic change in behaviour can only mean he found out for sure that DDD was scum.

I mean that's clearly nonsense, he represented an innocent claim on Jae. P-Edit: If he had an innocent claim on GM why was he sheeping Jae?

VOTE: Dragon

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I think we're probably lynching DDD today.

I feel pretty indifferent to that at this point.

Those are my thoughts.

Yeah, that seemed really difficult.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD is roleblocker. GL is goon.

Accountant, you did well. Thanks.

None of the smilies adequately represent my opinion of this... best I can find is

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

There's a lot of other stuff tangled up in there that I completely failed to adequately express.

Clearly.

Whatever, this game reminds me too much of playing with Jihadi Jake from State Farm except at least he had a reason for trying to power lynch me even if it was just pure revenge, I got people I don't even know pulling the same shit here. I do everything I'm supposed to do and it doesn't matter; really hope this is a "this game" problem and not a site meta shift because if not my return might not be long.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

No idea what "really" got me busted, pretty confident my entrance and response to copper's initial "reaction test' would've been the same as if I were town, I'm aggressive, I attack. Maybe just divergent personalities *shrug*. GL seemed to be a little too disconnected from the main strands of the game on D1, and probably should've just hammered Dragon on D1 instead of just saying intent to hammer which allowed iron to pivot, collapse the iron wagon for a copper wagon which was much harder for GL to move over to. Hindsight is of course 20/20 but I think he probably could've defended himself better from a quick hammer there than the pivot to copper's wagon and it would've implicated me a little less I think. After the N1 failure it was really just trying to string together a string of unlikely events into one exceedingly unlikely event. Who knows.

Didn't lie about the lack of enjoyability in the later stages of this game though, there's some players in this game that I don't need to play with ever again if I decide to stick around for more than just this one.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD's vote on me D2 looked a lot like he was trying to work out what happened with the nightkill and wanted to run me up to get info on it. Either through my claim or someone else's. That also contributed to my certainty that DDD was scum.

Wouldn't I know what happened to the night kill as scum? Like I was 99% sure that a doctor had protected you, because I suspected that any JK were probably headed my way. I was just trying to frame you up as scum trying to ride the coattails of confirmed town with an unconfirmed plan or scum prepping a fake claim.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

b) Allowing DDD to harass the newbies and creating a pretty hostile game environment because of the way you were reading the game, that included telling Iron he was useless and allowing DDD to harass "Dargon" just for the sake of it.

This is not the IC's responsibility, this is the responsibility of the mod. I will also add that I don't think I was out of bounds with "Dargon" but that in my frustration with iron I probably stepped over the bounds with him (calling him useless was fair, some of the other things, not so much), so sorry iron.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

b) Allowing DDD to harass the newbies and creating a pretty hostile game environment because of the way you were reading the game, that included telling Iron he was useless and allowing DDD to harass "Dargon" just for the sake of it.

This is not the IC's responsibility, this is the responsibility of the mod. I will also add that I don't think I was out of bounds with "Dargon" but that in my frustration with iron I probably stepped over the bounds with him (calling him useless was fair, some of the other things, not so much), so sorry iron.

You insulted me? Hmm. I thought that was just scum!DDD trying to deflect and using some ad hominem... I need to go back now because nothing in this game offended me, but I was infinitely frustrated by GM and jon's gameplay like facepalming while reading posts level frustrated

I mean I wasn't insulting you just to insult you. It was also to project an air of confidence, "look how casually I dismiss this other player, I don't need him because I'm that clearly town (or have a PR)", it was also setup to undermine any actual arguments you might have made later. But even when it's doing game related things there's still a line of good taste and I do think I crossed it twice.