Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[goodmorning]

Hello all, I am your lovely IC. I am expected to help you learn to play the game, particularly in the context of this forum. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your theory questions truthfully.

That's right,

I will not lie to you

about theory.

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs". That's only somewhat true. Some newbies have played many a game of Mafia elsewhere. Besides this, experience counts against me as well: you all are able to look up my past games and see how I've played in them. I can't because most of you don't have any. So it's a fairly even split.

Some helpful Wiki pages:
Quick Guide to Mafia
Quick Guide to Mafiascum
A Beginner's Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia

And some terms:
Glossary
Commonly Used Abbreviations

I also want to get this out now so as not to interrupt gameplay later:

HELPFUL TAG TIME

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[post]0[/post]

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0
and link you to that post.

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[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=68000]Newbie 1735[/url]

will look like
Newbie 1735
And link you to that url (this one is this game).

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[spoiler]OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING[/spoiler]

will look like

OH NO WHAT IS HAPPENING

(highlight to read).

The code for a big spoiler is this:

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[spoiler=A SPOILER??]IT IS[/spoiler]

which looks like

Spoiler: A SPOILER??

IT IS

Some mods are fine with spoilering of REALLY BIG WALLS O' TEXT. Some are not. If in doubt, always check with the Mod before you post.

/IC wall

[goodmorning]

Hi Accountant! Hello Jae!

Vote: Accountant

[goodmorning]

@dreal: I'll try to hit a couple points here:
-Try to use verboseness sparingly; it's useful sometimes but can make you very hard to read. It can also turn people off what you're saying.
-I much prefer VT to any other role but can understand why it would get old for you.
-This 9p game will probably last 2-3 months.
-Modding requirements here are super specific, so make sure you take a look at them before you /in to mod anything.
-Town should indeed usually not lie.
-No-lynching is usually not helpful, especially in games this size.
-If you read tone we should get along well.

@copper: I don't actually remember you at all?? When did we play?

@Ast:
1. yesssss
2. I couldn't tell about the English at all.
3.

but are you buddying me?????? omg

@dreal: Nobody really likes RVS, we just don't really have a better solution.

p-edit: @cilla: No other comments?

[goodmorning]

Did you have a different account then or something?

[goodmorning]

Fair enough. Good to play with you again, then!

[goodmorning]

This game will last 2-3 months? Interesting! I thought I had checked a few newbie 9p games and they were 3-5 weeks, maybe I mis-looked. That's a bit longer than I anticipated, but no big deal.

Well, it depends on how long we drag the Days out. They tend to be pretty long in very small and very large games. So if we say 2 weeks for each game day (given possible extensions for replacements and probable 1-day cushions, it evens out), we're looking at a month for 2 Days, which is the quickest Town can win, or 6 weeks for 3 Days, which is the quickest Scum can win.

They don't always go right up to the deadline, but it's close a lot.

In that case, let's move things along...

VOTE: staplertowel.

I'm sure that will be looked favorably upon!

Interesting.

@copper: Oh good, you did the heavy lifting on that one. I was hoping I wouldn't have to.

I'll save my counter-theories for a non-newbie game.

I mean, we can always talk about it postgame.

Hmm, I've looked all around as far as I can tell, is there a way to change the # of posts displayed per page?

You know, I don't think I've ever tried. GIF would probably be able to tell you if that feature exists or if he knows of some workaround.

[goodmorning]

@gm do you always play this cautiously in newbies?

No. Usually I play

even more cautiously.

@oncilla: Do you think that JaeReed seriously believes that statement will make them seem townie?

@drealmerz: copper gave a pretty correct math analysis of why no lynching is bad. On an abstract level, the idea is that town exerts influence on the game through lynching - they have the majority so they control the Day while mafia controls the Night. It's strange for them to give up that advantage.

Hmmmmmmmmm.

Am i the only real new player in this ? I expected at least another one to share my burden.

@oncilla: Do you think that JaeReed seriously believes that statement will make them seem townie?

I agree, for what it's worth.

Looks like Stapler is too.

Any other input?

If i was scum i'm pretty sure i would be unmasked after less than 48 hours. I'm a terrible liar, but you only have my word for it. Actually, it's also a very different timing and thought process than in a live one, so maybe i'm better at it. Or worse, we'll see. Anyway for now i don't have much to share with you guys ; i've skimmed through some of the other games and i'm impressed with how little people seem to work with when trying to figure out who's scum. I don't feel that in this domain i have a lot to share but i'll try to be as active as possible to not be a deadweight in the debates.

It's actually surprisingly easy when you get the hang of it.

I'd like you to read through and look for anything that feels weird to you. Not necessarily scummy, just weird.

Btw I'm countervoting based on solely the first 2 posts. I haven't read a thing yet.

It looks like this game should proceed at a decent pace; I'd advise you to try not to get too far behind because that gets hard pretty quickly.

This game isn't just about finding scum - it also acts as a gateway or welcome game into MafiaScum. As an experienced player, I have a duty to help explain game theory and game concepts to newcomers. The concept of No Lynch, especially when it is and isn't viable, is an important part of game theory. Therefore, it's only natural that I'd explain it to everyone. This does not stymie proper discussion of the game like you implied in post #40("trying to keep us from discussing something useful"). That's because it's possible to have multiple threads of conversation in a single game - it's not as though if I'm talking about No Lynch, that means everyone else has to drop what they're doing and also talk about No Lynch. It would only stymie real discussion if it was long, spammy or obnoxious to the point where players find it hard to get to the bits where actual gameplay takes place.

Given that
A. copper already explained all of that
B. dreal already indicated that he's aware D1 NL isn't optimal strategy
C. I already said we could continue NL discussion postgame
D. you're not talking about anything else at this point -

I'm satisfied with the conclusion: namely, that this is scummy behaviour from you.

I don't think something that obvious would help anyone clear his name.

You'd be surprised.

RE: NL discussion: POSTGAME, PLEASE.

[goodmorning]

I'm pretty sure I'm voting you already.

[goodmorning]

Yup! 9

--

If anyone's wondering I have ~3 scumreads at this point.

No real townreads yet but we'll get there.

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: Unofficial VC

Stapler (L-3) - Accountant, copper
Accountant (L-3) - goodmorning, dreal
dreal (L-4) - Ast
goodmorning (L-4) - Jae
Jae (L-4) - oncilla
copper (L-4) - Stapler

p-edit: Because there's a surprising amount else to talk about.

Are you being tonally different than you were last time we played?

[goodmorning]

Okay I'm back. Been reading for the past hour. I feel like an idiot noob, but trying my best here:

To reiterate, I've never truly played a single game and I'm basically as new as how Astyanaxx describes. Though, I wouldn't put it past him to say that just to be looked over. I dunno, maybe its cos I've been burned a few times by obfuscating newbs in EM in the past. Don't mean to presume, but coming out to describe yourself as bumbling and foreign from the getgo is a bit on the nose, doncha think? Just a curious thing to say

I mean, to be fair, you hadn't showed up at that point.

But yes, that is a thing.

@goodmorning, does this mean everything drealmerz started with his nonsense NL theorycrafting can be deemed irrelevant to this case?

It's not alignment-indicative in and of itself. The reasons why dreal and Accountant are continuing the conversation could be, though.

@Accountant: I could find only one game between us; in it, you were Town and I was Scum (N1683). I thought there was another one, though. Which are you referring to?

Where did I say there were issues? There are posts which contain info. There are no other issues yet.

[goodmorning]

@Stapler That's just a way to explain my future behaviour, which will probably be more passive than the average player. I'm trying to get a grip of this form of Mafia play and people would probably have wondered why i'm not participating as much as the other if i didn't justify it some way or another. If i was to defend myself mid-Day 1 with "sorry i'm new" i feel like it would have made me very suspicious. I can see how that would make a fitting stance for a mafia player trying to go under the radar, so i understand you being wary of me.

As for the NL conversation, i don't have much to add, although i'm not quite sure why it dragged that long.

This is cool, but please respond to 53!

@GM: Oh man, I confused you with farside. Never mind.

Okay, what info that I miss and not talk about?

I see.

LITERALLY EVERYTHING.

For one example,

what do you think of Stapler's assertion that Ast might be playing the Newb card too much?

_{ok, you got that one} What do you think of Jae's entrance into the game? What do you think about copper, generally? There's a lot there, I think.

Jae/GM:
How many games have you played with each other?

Just one. Jae joined while I was on my break.

3. but are you buddying me?????? omg

If memory serves town GM is paranoid about being buddied, so what I'm trying to assess is if other people here would be aware of this (which would increase the chances of this being her manipulatively playing into her meta) or if she likely wouldn't make the effort here because nobody would know about it anyway (which would make it more likely she's town-telling).

I was at least 85% joking in this instance but it definitely is something I try to be aware of as an IC.

[goodmorning]

This is cool, but please respond to 53!

You mean any other input on the game generally ?

I mean the part where I said "go back and see if you see anything you'd call weird."

[goodmorning]

Well, that looks like solid analysis of the big events, but I was hoping you'd go deeper.

[goodmorning]

What do you think of Jae's entrance into the game? What do you think about copper, generally? There's a lot there, I think.

I didn't find Jae's entrance particularly remarkable. For all that you claim to play conservatively, I find copper's play to be even more conservative - but there I'm stuck without a clue, because I don't know how to treat conservative copper(no meta, etc.)

I will say that I didn't like 75. The excessive amount of question marks means GM is almost certainly joking, which means it reads to me as faked paranoia.

GM, what do you think of Jae?

I found Jae's entrance so unremarkable that it was, in itself, remarkable. I'm not so sure about copper playing conservatively - he did go out on what could have been a limb re: you/NL.

I do also use excessive punctuation when I'm trying to make a point sometimes. 'omg' is what really tags it as in fun imo. Regardless, would he have known? I was a lot more serious pre-2014.

See above.

If anyone's wondering I have ~3 scumreads at this point.

Any intention of sharing these?

Not yet! You're welcome to guess what they are though! [And some of them are seriously in flux!]

Also, talking about theory isn't really alignment-indicative, which is why most of us are referring to it as useless.

[goodmorning]

Buddying is when you're nice to someone in the hopes they won't suspect you.

[goodmorning]

Well, it's not really RVS anymore; many people have made votes based on evidence rather than completely random ones. But yes, we're metagaming more because we've played each other before.

[goodmorning]

Maybe I expected you to play hardball.

[goodmorning]

I see no reason for you to believe I would be so inclined based off our shared game together.

1. The attitude you had towards the game there led me to believe you'd at least be participatory.
2. I tend to expect SEs to come in hot as a matter of course.

GM pointed out things that are alignment indicative then never followed up with a vote. Which is why I'm voting for her. I find IC's tend to feel guilty drawing scum in newbies and softball it because of that.

What part of

I was already voting for him

is difficult here?

Also: the only person I softball as ICScum is my partner, which is a bad habit but hard to break.

Also x2: You do realize I'm a pretty sticky voter, right?

I found Jae's entrance so unremarkable that it was, in itself, remarkable.

I'd like elaboration on this. Is Jae known for their explosive openings or something?

Not so far as I know, but you and copper both came in and did SOMETHING. Jae didn't. At all.

Looking at the three of you in combined ISO, I get:
copper joining your RVS wagon, explaining NL theory, encouraging Ast to post stuff, and by the end of p2 he's firmly stated his opinion on the indicativity of the NL convo.
You starting off your first real post with a "make them think" question to oncilla, getting sidetracked by NL convo, then arguing with me. I was kind of hoping you'd ask me why I hadn't asked you if you were trying to sound artificial deliberately but oh well.
Both of which are reasonable beginnings.
Jae's first several posts:
1. Requests grammatical clarification.
2. Joins the theory discussion without addressing the concerns about it or the fact that POSTGAME FOR FUCK'S SAKE.
3. Answers the "how many games do you have w/gm" question. Doesn't address anything else, despite the fact that it was already the top of p4.
4. Answers copper's question about their own meta.

Shallow questions, shallow answers.

I think I'm going to dig for scumgames in Jae's past here at some near point.

[goodmorning]

GM/Jae, did 104 catch either of your eyes?

Not really. I think dreal is posting enough real content that a joke, no matter the length or timing, is a humorous aside rather than a real concern.

GM, would it be accurate for me to say that you're scumleaning Jae based on 114?

JUST A BIT.

I see no reason for you to believe I would be so inclined based off our shared game together.

1. The attitude you had towards the game there led me to believe you'd at least be participatory.
2. I tend to expect SEs to come in hot as a matter of course.

1. The attitude where I waited until like page 8 to post because I didn't feel like phone posting and therefore did a bunch of catch up readslists about a day after the game started?
2. I did come in hot. My vote on you was 100% serious in my first post, based off you ignoring a line of questioning that you should have picked up on, pointing out stuff from the newbies which you'd think would have earned a pressure vote then

not voting them

. You pointedly ignored my vote on you, and now you're trying to pretend that I've done nothing because you ignored it?

1. I replaced into that game; let's not pretend I'm going to have an accurate sense of timing about anything before my entrance. Also, when you started participating,

you fucking participated

.
2. I actually honestly missed that post of yours in the midst of a bunch of copper posts. It's got a vote in it but it doesn't say why. You ask me whether I always play cautiously, which - you trust self-meta? It's not any more involved than your other posts.

(Also, that post of mine that you were responding to? I posted at 4am. If you're going to post, you should always post useful content, no matter what the clock says.)

If you'd been paying even a modicum of attention to my posts or copper's you'd realize I haven't drawn scum on this site.

What he said was that you hadn't drawn Scum

in a long time

. That doesn't automatically imply never.

RE: YOU IGNORED A THING OMG: I'll get to that later this post.

That wasn't what I felt GM should have questioned, actually. It was this:

Hello all, I am your lovely newbie. I am expected to make you bash your head on the keyboard, particularly in the context of the results of my terrible intuition which will lead to innocent deaths. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your questions with dubious, imprecise answers making me look incredibly guilty although i'm only a just a terrified, lost newcomer. (copyright goodmorning)

Which GM took a

complete

IC role in instead of addressing the potential motivation behind this.

What potential motivation? Looks like a clear self-deprecating RVS joke to me. (Or, to borrow his words: It seemed to me like pre-game banter.)
Unless you're trying to argue that Ast is playing the newb card too much, which - agree, but it's not necessarily indicative at this point in the game. If he keeps doing it (and posting little content), then it'll be a concern.

Either way I can't see a reason for GM to have completely avoided pressuring the slot as town.

1. I'm the IC, and I want to encourage him to play better regardless of his alignment.
2. I'm not a moron.

If you read scum_Jae in the fallout game they are often asking for approval about what they post and how the rest of the players feel about this and that, here they take a hard stance on the IC and call the scum team on page 5, there are some other town-tells I picked up on that I'm keeping for myself as well.

If you're using a bastard marathon game for newbie game meta, you're gonna have a bad time.
(Also: That's what I do as Scum in fast games! This is actually slightly helpful.)

@Ast:
1. yesssss
2. I couldn't tell about the English at all.
3.

but are you buddying me?????? omg

Ok, so if anyone can make sense of point 1 without it pointing to scumbuddies I obviously need to hear it.

Replace 'yesss' with 'lol' or 'hahaha' and you'll have the rough spirit of what was intended. I'm just not really fond of 'lol' and 'hahaha' (except sarcastically). 'omg' frequently serves the purpose as well.

My issue is, if you're not going to nitpick at wording, then you don't point out drealmer's thing. If you

are

going to nitpick at wording then you don't

ignore

Asty's thing.

I believe GM is deliberately not drawing attention to some things while focusing on others.

Actually, the thing I was focusing on with dreal was

the RVS L-2

. I don't give a flying fuck about the other words in that post.

Of course I'm focusing on some things over other things. We're all going to have different ideas about what's important.

@Accountant: You know what's getting in the way of real discussion?

[goodmorning]

And before you try to tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about - this is my 52nd Newbie game. I've seen A LOT OF NEWBS.

[goodmorning]

goodmorning, your tag says "effort is not indicative of alignment" - is that meant to be in reference to yourself, or a general statement?

Generally speaking. It should probably say "not necessarily indicative" but that kind of wishy-washy language undermines the point.
Why?

1. I participated in an actual manner beyond readlists

after like 48 hours

. Because, fun fact, I'm BUSY on my weekends. You didn't need to have an accurate timing of anything in that game because you were scum. So let's not pretend like you were even trying to read me beyond "PR/SK/Vanilla" because you weren't.
2. NO. You did NOT miss that post. YOU RESPONDED TO A PART OF IT. If you see "Serious vote" and you don't know why then you

ask

about it. Which is something you should be teaching the newbies, is it not?

I'd argue that I mostly posted useful content there. I responded to copper's enquiries along with providing the game he was talking about. The only actual fluff I posted was my joke to Accountant about no one in this game being insane enough to suggest a no lynch D1, with a link to a mini theme game where I did just that. The rest of the posting at unearthly hours of the morning were my response to copper about our game played together and my link to the fallout shelter game, both pretty much as his request.

1. Accurate timing is deeply important as either alignment. If you can't read the mood and tempo of the game, you can't do a good job.
2. I missed it IN MY SUMMATION. I assumed you were pretending to have a serious reason as a reaction test, because that happens a lot.
None of those things have any depth.

If you'd been paying even a modicum of attention to my posts or copper's you'd realize I haven't drawn scum on this site.

What he said was that you hadn't drawn Scum

in a long time

. That doesn't automatically imply never.

Again, wrong. What he said was that I had drawn town left, right and center. It doesn't imply never, but the fact that he asked about where my scum game was implies that I haven't drawn scum on here. You are not reading into the posts. You are not analyzing.

He asked you where a specific game

that specific people scumread you in

was. That also doesn't imply that you haven't drawn Scum here.

I'm trying to argue that you should have poked a little bit at it. Specifically "results of my terrible intuition which will lead to innocent deaths." and "dubious, impresice answers making me look incredibly guilty" or hell even a bit more of a push over the "copyright goodmorning" bit rather than the stresses you went through to make sure it wasn't seen as an actual FOS.

All of those look like components of exactly what I said - a self-deprecating joke. As for the "copyright gm" - I was mostly pleased by the evidence that a newbie actually sat down and read my long IC post, because I've had a lot of evidence of people skipping it in the past.
Come to think of it, that's a positive indicator of his attitude towards the game.

Either way I can't see a reason for GM to have completely avoided pressuring the slot as town.

1. I'm the IC, and I want to encourage him to play better regardless of his alignment.
2. I'm not a moron.

1. Okay, but you're not encouraging him to play better by ignoring the issue. If you were truly trying to encourage him to play better than the discussion we would be having right now would be whether you're coaching rather than ignoring a slot. Which is something I'd be a little more hesitant over with regards to the IC.
2. Okay, so if you hadn't posted by that stage I would have voted him for it. Why would you believe I'm a moron?

1. There's literally no reason to pressure people over jokes.
2. I wouldn't.

I

would have to be a moron to pressure any slot for something like that, because I have those 51 previous Newbie games of experience under my belt. You don't. You're therefore not a moron, you're just wrong.

If you read scum_Jae in the fallout game they are often asking for approval about what they post and how the rest of the players feel about this and that, here they take a hard stance on the IC and call the scum team on page 5, there are some other town-tells I picked up on that I'm keeping for myself as well.

If you're using a bastard marathon game for newbie game meta, you're gonna have a bad time.
(Also: That's what I do as Scum in fast games! This is actually slightly helpful.)

He's not using the meta so much as the tone, I think. Which you should know about, as a self-proclaimed tone-reader. Like...If I had the ability to dayvig here...

He's using your TONAL META.
This is the point at which you may want to note that you're tunneling so hard you're confbiasing. I know it's not going to mean anything coming from me, but seriously, take a step back. I only just learned how to do this, and it's amazing.

@Ast:
1. yesssss
2. I couldn't tell about the English at all.
3.

but are you buddying me?????? omg

Ok, so if anyone can make sense of point 1 without it pointing to scumbuddies I obviously need to hear it.

Replace 'yesss' with 'lol' or 'hahaha' and you'll have the rough spirit of what was intended. I'm just not really fond of 'lol' and 'hahaha' (except sarcastically). 'omg' frequently serves the purpose as well.

Then what was the point of saying it? What was it in response to? The whole post, or something in particular from it?

Because I found it funny. It was in response to the joke.

My issue is, if you're not going to nitpick at wording, then you don't point out drealmer's thing. If you

are

going to nitpick at wording then you don't

ignore

Asty's thing.

I believe GM is deliberately not drawing attention to some things while focusing on others.

Actually, the thing I was focusing on with dreal was

the RVS L-2

. I don't give a flying fuck about the other words in that post.

Of course I'm focusing on some things over other things. We're all going to have different ideas about what's important.

Sure but what you focused on in my mind when I read it was exactly the same line of thinking for the thing I thought you should have focused on. If you had ignored both things or pointed out both things there wouldn't be an issue. You didn't. You were very selective. That's what I saw.

You didn't give your reasoning as being the RVS L-2. But ok sure. Why is being the L2 vote in RVS something of particular note?

And that's a perfect example of different people finding different things important.

That's because I was hoping to kickstart some newbie discussion. Any L-2 vote is of particular note; dreal's treatment of this one was interesting.

@GM: What?

You harping on about this jokepost!

[goodmorning]

At this point I feel like you two are talking past each other and nothing is being accomplished.

[goodmorning]

goodmorning, your tag says "effort is not indicative of alignment" - is that meant to be in reference to yourself, or a general statement?

Generally speaking. It should probably say "not necessarily indicative" but that kind of wishy-washy language undermines the point.
Why?

Hmmm, I don't find that to be wishy-washy language or to undermine the point of it, I find the complete opposite. To me they mean 2 different things completely. If you mean "not necessarily indicative" then I won't get into a long spiel about why they're different, because I think you can see the nuance, and, that nuance is important I think, is why.

I see.

in reference to me going L-2 on staplertowel that early in the game:

I understand why it is "interesting", but, to me, it really is a safe move at that point, and a potentially useful one. If 2 scum in and see there is a wagon at L-2 and both decide to hop on and make the lynch, well, that is super-suspicious of those 2 more than me, imo, and kind of a noob-mistake on their part. It's an okay way to learn in a noob game if it happens, I think. If any more town add to the wagon, that is more on them than it is me at that point. More likely one of the others already on the wagon would jump off, unless they're scum, which can also be a useful read depending how things develop. I also think it is a safe move for me to be viewed as town. No scum would make it L-2 that early in the game at risk of drawing suspicion on themselves, sure, it can be a gambit move, but, it's risky and unecessary at that stage in the game.

I did not say that. Do not continue to misrep my position.

you didn't say

what

, exactly? when saying something like that quotes are really good, among saying "you're a hypocrite" and then not saying exactly where. I'm getting a bit annoyed at this back and forth with you and really don't see why you persist, I've made my positions clear and I don't have anything to add.

All of which is WIFOM. Also: even in Newbie games, I've never seen an RVS quickhammer by Scum. And every vote takes equal weight with me.

At this point I feel like you two are talking past each other and nothing is being accomplished.

That's how I feel about you and Jae.

I feel like we're getting to the bottom of our issues with each other at this point. You and dreal just keep accusing each other of misrepping.

I kinda wanna continue to grill GM outta spite because Accountant told me to stop, lol. My concerns were all addressed, though. I'm still half convinced just based off my luck that the IC slot is scum. Every newbie I've been in for D1 has had a scum IC. That's 4/5 newbies (the 5th I specifically replaced in after the town IC died). That's...not really an argument, though. Has little bearing on this game, gambler's fallacy, and so on.

Things are making a lot more sense now.

Accountant trying to put a stop to the noise is pro-town I think, as I can see scum!Accountant letting it pass without telling us to stop since it clutters up the thread. I still think it was early to try to call a stop to it since I was going to disengage anyway... but that's more my personality coming through than anything since I hate being told to do what I was already about to do.

Except, as I mentioned earlier this post, we were accomplishing some resolution. Accountant keeps making noise at dreal about how he's going to post a case when he gets to the computer, but in the meantime continues to bait dreal with non-issues.

Accountant trying to put a stop to productive noise while continuing with unproductive noise is not pro-Town at all.

I disagree that it was some kind of obvious joke rather than trying to handwave potential scummy behaviour, but that's likely gonna be an agree to disagree point.

Worrying about looking Town is a Newb tell, not a scumtell. But we can certainly agree to disagree.

[goodmorning]

In this case, Kuroshira replaced an unconfirmed slot. Two others confirmed, starting the game. In games that start before 100% confirmations, usually you give the unconfirmed 24 hours or so to confirm. Because this is a weekend you might be inclined to give them longer; many people are busy on weekends, and some mods even go so far as to count weekends as a single day for prod purposes.

[goodmorning]

LION!

(I also find hypocrisy unreliable as a scumtell because everyone's a hypocrite sometimes. It often arises from confbias.)

(p-edit: that.)

[goodmorning]

I kinda wanna continue to grill GM outta spite because Accountant told me to stop, lol. My concerns were all addressed, though. I'm still half convinced just based off my luck that the IC slot is scum. Every newbie I've been in for D1 has had a scum IC. That's 4/5 newbies (the 5th I specifically replaced in after the town IC died). That's...not really an argument, though. Has little bearing on this game, gambler's fallacy, and so on.

Things are making a lot more sense now.

I was feeling really vague about Jae until their fight with Dunn. Then everything started feeling really familiar.

...I'd ask if you're doing this on purpose but I know I'm being on the silly side of paranoid and this is not how to correctly use meta because it's probably just how you type... I doubt you're doing it on purpose to play on my mind. Maybe. Q_Q

-As Scum, my strategy is to read people exactly the same way as I would read them if I were Town. As a result, people usually have to go deeper when meta-ing me, because I don't have ulterior motives for reading anyone X way (except partners as mentioned earlier, but if you haven't lynched a partner yet or if they look Town...)
-In that case, your fight with Dunn reminded me of some Town fights I've had in the past, I think. In this case, your paranoia made your push on me make sense even from a Town POV.

I don't know if any of that really answers the question(s) you didn't explicitly ask, but it's what I've got.

Accountant trying to put a stop to the noise is pro-town I think, as I can see scum!Accountant letting it pass without telling us to stop since it clutters up the thread. I still think it was early to try to call a stop to it since I was going to disengage anyway... but that's more my personality coming through than anything since I hate being told to do what I was already about to do.

Except, as I mentioned earlier this post, we were accomplishing some resolution. Accountant keeps making noise at dreal about how he's going to post a case when he gets to the computer, but in the meantime continues to bait dreal with non-issues.

Accountant trying to put a stop to productive noise while continuing with unproductive noise is not pro-Town at all.

I found it more likely that Accountant had a townread on both of us and as such deemed the noise as unproductive. I'll get back to you on this, since my gut is squirming a bit at it being handwaved as TvT so easily without pointing out

how

it's TvT. I was lazy and didn't do my reread yesterday so I have to do it today

Maybe, but if we weren't townreading

each other

, then as unproductive as it might have been to

Accountant personally

, it was still clearly productive

to us

...

I disagree that it was some kind of obvious joke rather than trying to handwave potential scummy behaviour, but that's likely gonna be an agree to disagree point.

Worrying about looking Town is a Newb tell, not a scumtell. But we can certainly agree to disagree.

It can be, but that depends on

how

the concern about looking town comes out.

That's true. I take it we read this one differently.

--

It's DDD! Hi! It's been a REALLY LONG TIME.

[goodmorning]

And then while he was pushing it JaeReed didn't go after Asty himself at all, and he still hasn't.

Not sure I really think Jae has to be Scum atm, but I hadn't noticed that. That's kind of a decent point, and I'd like to see Jae's response.

You do advance one scumread that I've begun scumreading more and more as the game progresses.

Sorry; I don't see the scum claim. Can you please elaborate why it's a scum claim, copper?

I think I can see why he might dislike it but I'm not sure it makes sense, so I also want to see this question answered.

It's DDD! Hi! It's been a REALLY LONG TIME.

I haven't played for something like 18 months; we'll see how much I've retained. Reading the game early tomorrow.

I'm just back from a 3-month break; most of it came back OK for me though I have overreacted slightly to things at times. That's significantly shorter though, so... good luck?

There's a new abbreviation! NAI stands for "not alignment-indicative" and I include it here because I don't remember ever seeing it prior to ~5 months ago.

[goodmorning]

Vote: copper

[goodmorning]

Hello all, I am your lovely newbie. I am expected to make you bash your head on the keyboard, particularly in the context of the results of my terrible intuition which will lead to innocent deaths. Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your questions with dubious, imprecise answers making me look incredibly guilty although i'm only a just a terrified, lost newcomer. (copyright goodmorning)

I'm trying to argue that you should have poked a little bit at it. Specifically "results of my terrible intuition which will lead to innocent deaths." and "dubious, impresice answers making me look incredibly guilty" or hell even a bit more of a push over the "copyright goodmorning" bit rather than the stresses you went through to make sure it wasn't seen as an actual FOS.

All of those look like components of exactly what I said - a self-deprecating joke. As for the "copyright gm" - I was mostly pleased by the evidence that a newbie actually sat down and read my long IC post, because I've had a lot of evidence of people skipping it in the past.
Come to think of it, that's a positive indicator of his attitude towards the game.

@GM where in your IC post in this thread did you say anything like what he said? The closest I'm finding is:

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs".

It's a pretty clear parody of the first bit at least.

"Hello all, I am your lovely... I am expected to..., particularly in the context of... Towards the pursuit of that goal, I will answer all your [theory] questions [truthfully]." None of that sounds familiar?

Also, if you could respond to Lion at some point, that would be cool.

--

I don't have anything to add to the copper discussion atm but it's definitely a good one and I'm sure I will at some point soonish!

[goodmorning]

w h a t

[goodmorning]

w h a t

It's symbolic. I want time to think about things before I place my vote again.

booooooooo

--

I really want to rebut 224 but it's not for me!

And then while he was pushing it JaeReed didn't go after Asty himself at all, and he still hasn't.

Not sure I really think Jae has to be Scum atm, but I hadn't noticed that. That's kind of a decent point, and I'd like to see Jae's response.

The original point on Asty was just something I thought should be poked at. It wasn't an actual scumread. GM not poking at it made it likely that GM was scum and Asty her buddy, because scum will deliberately ignore scummy stuff their partner does all the time if town isn't picking up on it.

Right, but you didn't really poke at the stick to see if it was a snake. You just picked it up and poked me with it.

Asty has still done, like, nothing, but I'm not sure whether that's due to newb!scum not knowing how to fake getting reads, or newb!town not knowing how to get reads.

He could also be busy or have forgotten about this game.

Anyway, anything else you wanted me to respond to out of Lion's stuff?

Nope, that was it. Lion may want you to respond though.

I think copper is either town seeing how bs Lion's "case" is, or he's scum trying to buddy me because he knows I can hardcore effort if I feel I need to. FWIW I had the same thought as copper with regards to both Lion and DDD, but I'm also biased in that regard.

Scum rarely take the exact same stance on the game. Also, I have similar reads to theirs atm; we can't all three be Scum.

GM could either be trying to help a newb with the "look back over the thread and point out stuff"

That's pretty much my default instruction for struggling Newbs early D1 so NAI.

--

Show me more about how you are trying to understand my point of view (also that statement once again only makes sense for copper town, copper scum would just be selling BS).

This sentence pretty much epitomizes why I'm voting for copper (who, by the way, still hasn't asked me to explain...).

p-edit: I don't think that's actually what he meant

[goodmorning]

This sentence pretty much epitomizes why I'm voting for copper (who, by the way, still hasn't asked me to explain...).

I did start a post a few times with something along the lines of: GM should get a move on explaining her read or this is becoming more likely to be scum fence-sitting and waiting to see where the wind blows, but then I reminded myself to be patient and not force it until I had a strong reason to believe that's what was happening.

Why does the post you quoted make you think I am scum?

Generally I don't see very many Town who don't instantly demand a case they can rebut to try to prove their innocence.

I'm surprised you haven't figured it out. It's about the billionth time this game you've invoked some flavour of WIFOM in order to emphasize that you

couldn't possibly be Scum, no, really

.

[goodmorning]

Hey everyone!

I thought your name was familiar. Hi!

I'm surprised you haven't figured it out. It's about the billionth time this game you've invoked some flavour of WIFOM in order to emphasize that you couldn't possibly be Scum, no, really.

Everything is WIFOM once you go deep enough, especially if you look at it wanting to find a scum motive a priori, that comment wasn't even related to me, it was more about trying to figure DDD out.

Cite some of these billion of examples and I'll explain what was really happening.

WOOSH.

No thanks, I make it a habit not to incite bullshit when possible.

Also, I can see town_GM scum-reading me since in this world she thought you and Jae were scummy,

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

I've indirectly deflected her push on you when I said I was reading your argument with Drealmer as TvT

That had nothing at all to do with my read change.

ScumLion also has no incentive to push Jae(if they were going to side with one of GM vs Jae, it'd be easier to side with Jae and push the IC).

Lion may know me well enough to realise that this was the case, too. I'd have to look back and see how much I got shit on in whatever game(s?) we played though.

--

inb4 amished.

[goodmorning]

So in N1667 I was Tracker who had to CC a VT who claimed Cop D1. In N1644 we killed JKLion N1and I wasn't really suspected until D3.

So maybe, maybe not.

[goodmorning]

Reading the N1644 Dead Thread, Lion definitely has known me well enough to know the weaknesses in my IC play.

--

Because he was run up.

[goodmorning]

Also ftr I have feelings about Dragon's catchup but I'm not saying what they are yet because I want to see who agrees with me first.)

[goodmorning]

@DDD: I don't understand what you mean but it is 2:30 so maybe I'll get it when I've had some sleep?

@copper:
A. opportunism is not necessarily scummy.
B. interesting that you'd classify opportunism as scummy right before placing a fairly opportunistic vote on Accountant.

"This WIFOM is why I'm so Town" is scummy.

[goodmorning]

I said he lacked opportunism so he wasn't likely to be scum, that is not the same as saying that opportunism is necessarily scum-indicative (almost nothing is necessarily scum indicative on it's own btw).

If I say "this book has very little plot and so is unlikely to be good" that's exactly the same as saying "lack of plot is typically bad-book-indicative." We use the specific instance to inform the general.

You're playing bullshit with semantics and not even doing it well.

(Since I see you're playing bullshit with logic, too: please note the "typically" above. If you claim that X makes someone

unlikely

to be Scum, then you're mathematically/probabilistically claiming that notX makes them

likely

to be Scum.)

(as I have the advantage of being able to read my PM)

How many times are you going to tell us you're Town? You know what they say in writers' workshops? Show, don't tell. You've been onsite long enough to have picked up that maxim.

Since you say you don't get DDD, he is saying that Dragon commenting on the previous owner of his slot and finding what he is saying weird is a scum-tell, it's a stretch of the amished tell, which says that if you scum-read the slot you replaced into you are scum.

Given that I referenced the Amished tell by name, that's obviously not the problem I was having.

It means that I believe that as scum (notQ) you are more likely to be opportunistic (notP), not that you if you are opportunistic (notP) you are necessarily scum (notQ), which is what GM used to discredit the read and which is a logical fallacy.

Except that those are two different statements. If you weren't being disingenuous, the second would read "if you are opportunistic, you are

more likely

to be Scum" to match the wording of the first.

But you are being disingenuous, so.

--

@DDD: I still dgi. Can you rephrase?

[goodmorning]

It has and it's mostly debunked at this point.

I think it's more weird that Dragonfire would drop suspicion just because of a replacement.

[goodmorning]

@copper:
1. "Not necessarily scummy" and "not necessarily Scum" are two very different phrases.
2. Fine. "This book has well-fleshed-out characters and so is likely to be good" is the same thing as "books with poorly-fleshed-out characters are unlikely to be good." And, for emphasis,

we use the specific to inform the general.

3. Again, my previous statement was mathematically correct.
4. Facts can totally lie. Ever take a statistics class?

@DDD: I'm not sure I've ever found it to be efficacious but I equally wouldn't be surprised if it was true here.

p-edit: I have never once seen a Townie, not even the newbiest of Newbs, tell me how Town he was as often as you do.

[goodmorning]

Where is Dragon, actually?

Also, Stapler and dreal need prodding.

--

p-edit: I don't remember saying you were misrepping me specifically. I don't think that. I think you were misrepping the English language.

[goodmorning]

"Misrep" doesn't even look like a real word anymore.

[goodmorning]

Hey everyone!

I thought your name was familiar. Hi!

Do I know you from somewhere? Sorry if this comes across as rude, but I don't really remember playing with you. You might have been in a Micro game with me where I replaced out Day 1 due to stress and RL events. If so, then hello again.

I was the mod of said Micro!

It has and it's mostly debunked at this point.

I think it's more weird that Dragonfire would drop suspicion just because of a replacement.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, can you clarify please?

If you think oncilla's posts were weird, why drop suspicion just because of a replacement?

[goodmorning]

After rereading the game I'm pretty convinced both Scum are in {copper, Jae, Dragon} with DDD as the very unlikely side candidate.

I also would probably not vote Jae today though.

[goodmorning]

(speaking of popping into the thread, hi)

[goodmorning]

If you think oncilla's posts were weird, why drop suspicion just because of a replacement?

Re: oncilla, since I didn't get the same weird gut feeling from reading DDD's posts, I decided to drop suspicion. Some people, especially newbies, just come across as scummy (gut) regardless of alignment, and I think this might be the case. I feel like it's not fair to judge someone by the standards of their predecessor if said predecessor has not done anything really scummy / off.

Fair enough.

After rereading the game I'm pretty convinced both Scum are in {copper, Jae, Dragon} with DDD as the very unlikely side candidate.

I also would probably not vote Jae today though.

Why do you think I'm scum? Is it based on Asty's posts, or mine?

Both. Reading back knowing what I know now, his posts look a bit more concerning than I originally felt they were, and yours are just somehow lacking (though I did like your answer ^ so...)

Could you please explain what beetlejuicing means? Sorry, relative newbie here.

I feel like somebody already covered this, but just in case:
It's when someone shows up right after you say their name. It's not thought to be a very reliable scumtell though.

--

I'm getting pretty annoyed by copper saying he was going to reaction test DDD without actually giving any specifics as far as I can see.

I also think I've figured out the actual game we were in, & let's be fair - I had the other Scum as a suspect nearly the entire time I was alive.
Also I stopped thinking you were Scum by early D2, unless I'm wrong about who you are/the game.
Also, the Scum lynched first was not the one you thought was Scum but the one I thought was Scum. So.
Alsox3: I'm a better player now than I was 2.5 years ago.

[goodmorning]

Sorry that was me, I went back and checked that old game .

I had the right game but the wrong slot. The thing about the Scum is still accurate. I only scumread you for like a week, before that I thought you were just silly Town.
also tbf i think jmo won the lylo but ymmv

Anyway, what I'm asking is what exactly was the reaction test? Or, if you didn't do one, what were you going to do? Or are you doing one now (in which case, idgi)?

[goodmorning]

Anyway, what I'm asking is what exactly was the reaction test? Or, if you didn't do one, what were you going to do? Or are you doing one now (in which case, idgi)?

I give it 100% to mind gamer.

The reaction test was calling the Oncilla replacement scum and seeing how they'd react, I'd hoped GIF would replace him with a newbie as well.

Once GL posted his catch-up it morphed (although here it's not just a reaction test, it's more of an over the top scumread) to doing the same to him.

Once DDD posted, the possible connection between the two slots jumped up to me so I continued in the same vein including him as well.

Everything after the accountant vote and read request is not a reaction test anymore, it's me trying to figure DDD out and after that the players on my wagon.

OK, so break down what you think their reactions were for me. How did each of them react? How did you expect them to react if Town? If Scum? Does your test apply to the other players in the game? If so, how do you think we all reacted? How did you expect us to react if Town? If Scum?

Both. Reading back knowing what I know now, his posts look a bit more concerning than I originally felt they were, and yours are just somehow lacking (though I did like your answer ^ so...)

What do you mean by "knowing what [you] know now"? Why would that make Asty's posts scummier?

Jae's apparent motivations, the replacement, the actions of various others. It changes the way I interpret them.

His whole case is built on bad interpretations & expectations of how people think and act

I agree.

He did the same in the game 2.5 years ago and was Town then, but I'd really expect him to have improved by now.

[goodmorning]

OK, so break down what you think their reactions were for me. How did each of them react? How did you expect them to react if Town? If Scum? Does your test apply to the other players in the game? If so, how do you think we all reacted? How did you expect us to react if Town? If Scum?

1. GL did not react, no conclusion to be drawn other than that's what I would also do in his shoes regardless of alignment.

I was hoping for a newbie to replace and either try to buddy super hard or immediately OMGUS or a combination of the above if they were scum or to quickly lose respect for my posting and call me bad as town, it's a play on their expectations of more experienced players.

2. With DDD I was hoping that stressing he was part of a team of two would cause him to violently deny or totally ignore that part if they are scum together but GL explicitly asking me about that point later on makes me doubt they are the actual team.

His reaction was to OMGUS me, I thought that was scum indicative together with the rest of his posting being haphazard at best, but he later OMGUSes dragon as well and has shown a strong amount of confbias in the way that he phrases his posts so now I'm trying to decide if I'm up again a VI or just scum brazenly pushing.

3. I wanted Jae's reaction as well, Jae would know that's not my natural posting, as town I would expect him to recognize that and either make sure we really agreed on GL or be paranoid about me buddying them, as scum I would expect them to nervously fence sit waiting to see what the heck I was doing, and they have given me mixed signals.

4. For everyone else, I was curious in a general sense but did not have prior expectations going into it, that's a bit arrogant looking back but I don't usually get pushed early in games (so I did not consider people pouncing on me for it), the fact both you and Accountant jumped on may turn out to be the more important reaction.

A. But you didn't feel like modifying your test when you saw that he wasn't new?
B. So you were reaction testing for one specific pair? You know the probability of one specific pair being Scum (from the perspective of a single Town player) is 6.25%, right? Not very efficacious.
C. Someone voting you when you happen to be voting them isn't necessarily OMGUS.
D. Scum can't have confbias; they have definite knowledge.
E. DDD is many things, but definitely not a VI.
F. I don't understand anything about 3.
G. And what do you think about our reactions?

He did the same in the game 2.5 years ago and was Town then, but I'd really expect him to have improved by now.

I have been playing mafia since the mid 1990s...

:[

Speaking of replacements, with Stapler's request to be replaced that makes five people who've posted at all being replaced, and about three or four who failed to post. Do most games have this much replacing? The two I've played before had little to no replacing taking place.

From Toomai's stats thread: "On average, games replace 2.9 slots with a standard deviation of 1.63, and 3.5 players with a standard deviation of 2.21."
On a bell curve, 95% of results fall within 2 standard deviations from the mean.

p-edit: I would go so far as to say some things are literally absolutes in this game.

[goodmorning]

Today is hardly long-term.

I'll respond to the rest in a bit.

[goodmorning]

A. But you didn't feel like modifying your test when you saw that he wasn't new?
B. So you were reaction testing for one specific pair? You know the probability of one specific pair being Scum (from the perspective of a single Town player) is 6.25%, right? Not very efficacious.
C. Someone voting you when you happen to be voting them isn't necessarily OMGUS.
D. Scum can't have confbias; they have definite knowledge.
E. DDD is many things, but definitely not a VI.
F. I don't understand anything about 3.
G. And what do you think about our reactions?

A. I went ahead anyway because as I said I did not like the conclusions in GL's initial post, the 2 other scum-reads (I am making an effort to leave WIFOM out here) he gave were both in my town pool.
B. No, the idea of the test was based on the slot I did not like replacing out in a way I found possibly questionable (so the most likely scum-slot in the game at the time which makes it a very efficient choice), what came after can be called a reaction test only in the sense that I posted as if I had found a giant scum-slip to begin with and continued along those lines while finding both of these players scummy by themselves, and much more likely so if one of them happened to be scum (because of the associatives between them).
C. That's true but again irrelevant to my point, which is whether DDD being OMGUSy is something that he does more as town.
D. What is this in reference to?
E. You thought Jmo won the other lylo so I am not going to take your opinion about other players at face value.
F. Is 3 the part about Jae? You will get a bunch of WIFOM if you want more about that; the point there is that Jae would likely know that something strange is going on and I'd expect different behaviors from them as scum or town but the fact they openly mentioned not reading the thread makes all deductions in this area problematic.
G. I am still trying to work all the 3 of you out, since this has become an echo chamber of a few people going back and forth it's not leading anywhere, Dragon came in with a new perspective and I want to see if that's mainstream which would lead to a certain interpretation or niche which would make another more probable.

A. Do you often find that all townies agree on everything?
B. That really doesn't tally with what you said before.
C. But he's not being OMGUSy; therefore your entire point is irrelevant in and of itself.
D. I don't know, maybe the bit where you said "he's shown a strong amount of confbias" and then decided he's either "a VI or just Scum brazenly pushing"? Come on.
E. He fucking correctly tracked a Mafia and claimed it coherently AND in a way that somehow DIDN'T get him killed. Jmo won the fuck out of that LyLo.
F. This is, again, something new.
G. Our reactions to you initially pushing them have already happened, though.

[quote="In post 433, GuiltyLion"I think there's an implicit assumption somewhere (being pushed mainly by GM but the idea has also been sheeped by Accountant and DDD) that a "reaction test" has to have some kind of intentional expectation of how scum/town will react when it's given, but I think copper is saying his version of a "reaction test" is just to say shit and see what happens, which is plausible as town behavior.[/quote]
You don't have to have that expectation going into the test (though you probably should), but you definitely have to have it coming out.

Today is hardly long-term.

I'll respond to the rest in a bit.

That's a dodge.

If you left the today part out it could be interpreted as you being confident about me being scum so I'm the only one you are willing to vote at that point in time (although the question of why you don't mention Dragon is still open, were you ok with a Dragon lynch there?).

But by adding the today part in you're saying that anything else that Jae does today is unlikely to make you vote them and that's problematic because I see quite a few reasons for why you might not want to do so and are thinking along those lines as scum and very few as town.

You don't say!

If I left the today part out it would completely change the meaning of my post! (Obviously, since Dragon was on that scumlist and I didn't specify otherwise!)

I mean, we'll see. But generally I have a lot of mixed feelings about Jae and they don't make me want to put a vote there at all.

her answer was not, copper stop misrepping me,

tbf my answer was "copper stop misrepping the English language" but ok

dude you're starting a quibble over a single word. what on earth is our problem??

The way you post is relevant because it often shows the mindset you're coming from, the way GM phrased it makes me think she is planning ahead who to vote and that would be scummy.

On the contrary; planning votes ahead (which, ftr, I'm still not actually doing here, as I already said) locks you in a bit later. Flexibility is key to the scumgame imo. That and sleight-of-hand.

[goodmorning]

Besides, we had to talk about something other than you and Accountant going at each other again and again for ages.

Why are you asking, anyway?

I swear, every time I decide to vote Dragon, he posts something like this and I change my mind.

GM also left you out of the players she might or might not vote today while putting you in her scum-reads and that may be a slip on her part. Also the fact she spent some time telling DDD that the amished tell was debunked while still scum-reading you is somewhat curious.

I have not, to date, made a "players I may or may not vote" list. I have made a "players I have some level of scumread on and yet am probably not interested in voting today" list but as it's only one player I don't think it's relevant to this. (Also,

this

is you misrepping me.) I think it's funny that you think a debunked tell is the only reason I could have had to scumread Dragon, given that I actually specified where the scumread was coming from.

Jae is town. GM, do you agree?

I certainly do now, good gracious.

GM legit said that she probably wouldn't be voting me today. That implies something to me as far as her read on me that I dislike.

If you think I'm implying what I think you think I'm implying, you're not wrong. But I do it as all alignments, because it's really beneficial.

--

I think everyone with over 100 posts should TONE IT THE FUCK DOWN. We haven't heard anything from MM yet and prolonging the thread isn't going to make that happen any sooner.

--

p-edit: In practice, the situation doesn't usually change dramatically with any single post. Also, sometimes your reads are strong enough that any new evidence would have no effect. And, one more time, I'M STILL NOT LOCKING THEM IN HERE.

ALSO TUNNELING EXISTS.

I can't.

It's not an ordered list.

I really really just cannot.

[goodmorning]

Like, I am so far away from "can" that I'm on this tunnel until one of us is dead. That's it.

[goodmorning]

(ftr,

now

I've locked in my vote.)

[goodmorning]

THIS IS WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE

[goodmorning]

Besides, we had to talk about something other than you and Accountant going at each other again and again for ages.

Why are you asking, anyway?

I swear, every time I decide to vote Dragon, he posts something like this and I change my mind.

For the record, why did what I posted make you change your mind? Looking at the post, nothing really jumps out at me.

I shouldn't townread sass, BUT I DO.

--

I kind of want to vote Dragon now but not really explain it.

--

@ironstove: Hi! Please explain the Accountant vote and also catch up ASAP.

--

p-edit: i'm not actively trying to lynch dragon atm though

^^^(but ytf did he comment on it, eh?)

[goodmorning]

@ironstove: Hi! Please explain the Accountant vote and also catch up ASAP.

[goodmorning]

A. I really don't want us to forget how scummy copper is
B. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's got one more chance.

@ironstove: What makes you think Accountant is Scum?

[goodmorning]

iron's posting all over the site is the same

N1730 begs to differ.

Which makes me wonder.

[goodmorning]

Opened the game linked, saw a VT claim at the start of the ISO, checked the roles to make sure it was not done as scum, closed the thread.

What I have been browsing is his recent posting onsite and he is being less rude here than elsewhere.

Because of course that's the most important thing.

Take a look at the way he actually interacted in that game: he PROVIDED EXPLANATIONS and ASKED QUESTIONS and was GENERALLY NOT COMPLETELY USELESS.

I don't like talking about my "strongest" townreads, I know that a lot of players think readslists are useful but IMO the information they give scum is more valuable than the information they give town.

Have we not had this argument yet?

Okay everyone, ironstove clearly isn't interested in helping to contribute to this game. He's either scum who needs rope or

reluctant town who needs vote pressure to convince him to participate

. Either way, we should all vote him.

VOTE: ironstove

also this feels to me a lot like jumping off of one mislynch and onto another

there's no need for "vote pressure" at this stage of D1, we have 500+ posts already and ~3 days until deadline

I was totally on board with you, thinking "am I just sort of townreading Accountant because of copper?" until you posted this.

I kind of want to vote Dragon now but not really explain it.

--

@ironstove: Hi! Please explain the Accountant vote and also catch up ASAP.

--

p-edit: i'm not actively trying to lynch dragon atm though

^^^(but ytf did he comment on it, eh?)

Stop attempting to buddy me.

Do you see the ^ arrows there? CONTEXT IS YOUR FRIEND!

[goodmorning]

@GM re:argument about townreads - I normally think of you as a cryptic/reserved player, are you saying you believe in openly sharing the strength of your townreads? Why? (although that's not really game relevant, maybe this discussion is better served postgame, but I will come back to it because I am pretty curious here)

And what do you mean about Accountant, I don't follow

Short answer: Scum can usually read between the lines; Town only have as much info as we share with each other. Also, holding Scum to a high standard of transparency makes it harder for them to hide. (And I'm not that cryptic :[ )

I mean that that's a weakness of mine; when pushing a tunnel, sometimes I'm too kindly disposed to those who're pushing it with me. Unless you meant something else, in which case please clarify.

[goodmorning]

(PS: Town can't read between the lines because they don't know who the Scum are)

[goodmorning]

hmmm you make a good point about scum being able to read between the lines that I have not considered much before, I guess I may be assuming too much of my own ability in being -discreet- about how much I want/don't-want to lynch people.

also I get you now, you're operating under scum!copper world and that's the part you were disagreeing with

my thinking is this, if Accountant were town and he thought copper is scum, and you (presumably also town) have previously indicated that you are locked into lynching copper, why would Accountant then hop off the wagon to push someone else for not playing along? and justify it with "he needs vote pressure"? I just don't like the post at all, especially due to the explicit "i don't care what his alignment is" attitude, which feels a little exaggerated.

I mean, being discreet about some things is possible, especially in Newbie games, but townreads, not really.

I guess?

Because ironstove is being a frustrating dick? That move doesn't even have to be alignment-indicative; I've made it before as either.

@GM
The important part is his attitude now, not when he finished his first newbie, and how likely he is to react in a productive manner to a wagon on himself (which I correctly assessed).

The proof that my approach is better is that he answered my question (and I liked his answer) while you are still unable to get anything out of him, other than playing associatives.

Normally I'd agree, except that it ended TWO DAYS AGO.

DAYS.

I mean, he answered my questions. Just not very well. I don't do associatives before flips, except sometimes in LyLo, which this is not, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

[goodmorning]

It makes me wonder

about ironstoves

, to clear that up.

[goodmorning]

Fuck, I hate to do this but GM, I know we didn't play together much but could you please tell these space cadets that my first post isn't weird. What horrifying reality have I entered where levity and brevity are sins.

I mean, tbf, I scumread you back when I was a Newb.

It's not framed weirdly, if that's the issue.

I was kind of ignoring that whole thing because I thought it was silly, can someone give me a quick summary?

@copper: Please stop arguing that DDD should have been able to predict the future. Brahe didn't know about the Big Bang or the expanding universe, to use your example.

@ironstove: Please stop being useless.

--

I was pretty ambivalent about DDD but now I have STRONG OPINIONS, I think.

[goodmorning]

I was kind of ignoring that whole thing because I thought it was silly, can someone give me a quick summary?

Read DDD's first "catch-up" post and then his replies to copper after that. He basically quoted a lot of posts and then gave seemingly random reads at the conclusion of his post (for instance he said he townread drealmerz solely based off drealmerz's joke "Banana Split" post). I could see it being a joke, but he maintains that he was being serious. See copper's below post:

No Jae, the first post that DDD makes and then his reply when I accuse him of selecting posts that don't match the reads that he gives at the end.

Yeah, no, that's the bit that doesn't make sense to me. Idk about you, but I can see (or at least make an educated guess) where his reads are coming from. Like, that's how catch-ups work; you quote things that seem important and/or you want to respond to especially. You can't quote every single post because it would be a waste of everyone's time.

@ironstove: Please stop being useless.

Will you keep saying I'm useless when DDD flips mafia?

A. I'm feeling reasonably confident at this point that he won't.
B. Even if he does, your only contribution to the wagon will have been a naked vote.

So yes. Wholeheartedly.

she's softballing iron for no conceivable reason

I mean, I have just called him useless. I think I may have also expounded my reasons for not wanting to move my vote; to those you can add that I think it would make literally no difference. We could run ironstove up to L-1 and he'd still just be a troll.

You are playing in the wrong forum if that's the case, this game is for them.

Iron is giving reads, posting in an entertaining fashion I am perfectly fine with if there is substance.

Naked reads aren't substance at all.

There isn't.

Man this guy is unbearable.

POT, MEET KETTLE.

[goodmorning]

Naked reads aren't substance at all.

That's not all that he has posted.

No, he's also posted a shitload of fluff.

People who are scummier than DDD:

GM, dragon, copper, iron, drealmerz(close but slightly scummier)

It's absolutely batshit insane to lynch DDD while all five of these people still breathe oxygen

So you only have two townreads, GL and Jae, and you scumread everybody else??

ugh, not you too

[goodmorning]

To be honest, I don't see why you're so fervently defending everything iron says. It's not as if he's contributing to the town at all.

I'm defending him a bit more than usual because I find the the positions of my fellow SE (who told him to replace out) and the IC (who said he is useless) pretty disgusting given the setting of this game.

I also think those accusations are unfair, now if you want my support for explaining your reads instead of plopping a name out you have it and I already said I found Iron's posting troll early on (so where do you get me defending

everything

he posts?) and considered a pressure vote before noticing it would likely be a waste of time.

He's played a Newbie game in which he proved he knows how to contribute. In this Newbie game, he's being a trolling asshole.

Maybe I'd have had more patience for him if I hadn't already wasted buckets of it down the bottomless pit that is you.

I'm getting so tired of this fucking game. It's shit like this that sent me on my sabbatical in the first place.

[goodmorning]

Like, I try SO HARD to be patient and kind in Newbie games, because A. I know they can't help it and B. it's the first thing they see when they come to the site and I don't want to discourage people, but seriously, F U C K.

[goodmorning]

@GM do we have actual newbies here anymore?

Absolutely! Nearly every time I IC I find myself giving advice like "just do your best" and "don't worry about looking Town, it'll shine through."

@copper: I really don't think it's just me at this point.

[goodmorning]

@copper: We should probably ignore each other for a while then.

@Jae: RE: Newbs: In this game? Nah.

RE: copper: I probably wouldn't NK him as Scum because if he doesn't get lynched today, that gives me a convenient place to put my vote tomorrow. Also: as Scum, the frustration would mostly be fake.
I mean, it's not like there'd be no reason to kill him - he causes some damage to my credibility among people who agree with him - but he'd be more useful alive.

RE: An easy way to read me: There isn't really one. The way I express emotion might apply a little bit but it usually takes a few games before the differences are discernible.

[goodmorning]

Dragon keeps not following up on anything I say & it's bothering me.

[goodmorning]

Just from recently:

I was kind of ignoring that whole thing because I thought it was silly, can someone give me a quick summary?

Read DDD's first "catch-up" post and then his replies to copper after that. He basically quoted a lot of posts and then gave seemingly random reads at the conclusion of his post (for instance he said he townread drealmerz solely based off drealmerz's joke "Banana Split" post). I could see it being a joke, but he maintains that he was being serious. See copper's below post:

No Jae, the first post that DDD makes and then his reply when I accuse him of selecting posts that don't match the reads that he gives at the end.

Yeah, no, that's the bit that doesn't make sense to me. Idk about you, but I can see (or at least make an educated guess) where his reads are coming from. Like, that's how catch-ups work; you quote things that seem important and/or you want to respond to especially. You can't quote every single post because it would be a waste of everyone's time.

People who are scummier than DDD:

GM, dragon, copper, iron, drealmerz(close but slightly scummier)

It's absolutely batshit insane to lynch DDD while all five of these people still breathe oxygen

So you only have two townreads, GL and Jae, and you scumread everybody else??

ugh, not you too

[goodmorning]

Jae is Town.

[goodmorning]

There's literally no way that anyone should have ironstove as a top-3 townread.

Explain.

[goodmorning]

I was kind of ignoring that whole thing because I thought it was silly, can someone give me a quick summary?

Read DDD's first "catch-up" post and then his replies to copper after that. He basically quoted a lot of posts and then gave seemingly random reads at the conclusion of his post (for instance he said he townread drealmerz solely based off drealmerz's joke "Banana Split" post). I could see it being a joke, but he maintains that he was being serious. See copper's below post:

No Jae, the first post that DDD makes and then his reply when I accuse him of selecting posts that don't match the reads that he gives at the end.

Yeah, no, that's the bit that doesn't make sense to me. Idk about you, but I can see (or at least make an educated guess) where his reads are coming from. Like, that's how catch-ups work; you quote things that seem important and/or you want to respond to especially. You can't quote every single post because it would be a waste of everyone's time.

I never said his post was scummy because it was brief / light. I also know how catch-ups work. I've explained why I found his opening post scummy already, and he has responded. Why should I have to justify myself to you as well?

And I didn't say you said that at all.
You're not required to justify yourself to me, but if you want me to believe DDD is Scum someone's going to have to do something.

People who are scummier than DDD:

GM, dragon, copper, iron, drealmerz(close but slightly scummier)

It's absolutely batshit insane to lynch DDD while all five of these people still breathe oxygen

So you only have two townreads, GL and Jae, and you scumread everybody else??

ugh, not you too

I had no idea that I was meant to "follow through" or respond to this, since frankly I had no idea what you were saying here and assumed you were just expressing frustration with people misinterpreting Accountant's reads list point. And for your information, I've cleared that one up too.

If you had no idea what I meant, surely the appropriate response would have been to ask me?

So why are you suspicious of me "not following through" on things when I actually have, and with the people that they concern. Do you want me to duplicate my answer just for you? Or are you just not reading what I post?

It's not just those two posts; I feel like you've been ignoring me more generally as well (I'm mentioned 19 times in your ISO; Accountant 65 times [that's over 3x more mentions though he only has a little over 2x more posts than me]; Jae has 51 mentions [which is more than their number of posts]; Lion has

72

), and then when I made the effort to try and engage you (or anyone else pushing DDD) you said "go read that post" and didn't follow up afterwards. Your vote is on the wagon but you don't care enough about it to actually elabourate on your position to someone not on the wagon who asks?

--

@Accountant: I mean, I get having a lot of idk reads this game, because I don't fucking know anything at this point, but it is a little weird to WK someone you have as unsorted.

Also I'm not super clear why you townread Lion. I looked through your ISO [again] but I don't really see it.

[goodmorning]

OHHEY

GIF IS BACK

ALLLLLRIGHT

[goodmorning]

Obviously you know now what I meant since Accountant took like 3 posts to finally explain it to you.

Then surely I should be mentioned MORE? If you find me hard to read, why aren't you actively trying to sort me? Where are the questions? Why spend so much time circlejerking with people you strongly townread and ignoring people you have yet to sort? I DON'T GET IT.

And RE: the last thing: THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE ACCUSER.

(But also, I have a good reason for you, whether Jae deigns to answer you or not. I don't think ScumDDD is dumb enough to ask me for help (616).)

[goodmorning]

It was GM that first mentioned Amished here wasn't it? With "inb4 amished" or some similar phrasing? What was the intent behind that, can you elaborate? I know the tell, but I want to know why in particular you brought it up rather than ignoring the comment regarding previous slot occupants.

Because I figured someone would probably bring it up and I think it's funny.

Also, @ GM

(But also, I have a good reason for you, whether Jae deigns to answer you or not. I don't think ScumDDD is dumb enough to ask me for help (616).)

Not a good enough reason to townread someone. It's dumb as either alignment imo. But I think a scum!DDD could come up with better reasons to townread drealmer than the joke post (and I'm guilty of townreading ppl off early joking as well) especially since drealmer did have other content to be read off by that stage. Which means I'm siding with Accountant on this one.

DDD quite possibly knows me well enough (and even if he doesn't it's already been discussed in this game) to know how paranoid I sometimes get about buddying. Also, given that anyone likely to listen to me would NOT be on the list of people who were/are scumreading him, the potential reward would be far less than the risk.

@Dragon: There's always something you can ask.

Also I don't know why you keep dodging the fact that you're on the DDD wagon and yet seem totally unwilling to actually push the damn thing.

[goodmorning]

If you're unwilling to explain I don't see why you think anyone's going to hop on board.

[goodmorning]

You're dodging the fact that you seem unwilling to push the wagon.

[goodmorning]

You're dodging the fact that you seem unwilling to push the wagon.

I'm not exactly going to get anywhere with it, am I? Half of the player base seems to have DDD as lock town so what point is there?

The point is to try to convince people that he's not 'lock Town.'

It was GM that first mentioned Amished here wasn't it? With "inb4 amished" or some similar phrasing? What was the intent behind that, can you elaborate? I know the tell, but I want to know why in particular you brought it up rather than ignoring the comment regarding previous slot occupants.

Because I figured someone would probably bring it up and I think it's funny.

Yeah okay. Reason I had to ask was that hiplop as scum IC in Trees pulled the tell on Charloux to try to get him lynched. If you wanted attention drawn to it for something like "wanted it noted for later" or so then we would have had issues.

And it worked? Weird.

Also, @ GM

(But also, I have a good reason for you, whether Jae deigns to answer you or not. I don't think ScumDDD is dumb enough to ask me for help (616).)

Not a good enough reason to townread someone. It's dumb as either alignment imo. But I think a scum!DDD could come up with better reasons to townread drealmer than the joke post (and I'm guilty of townreading ppl off early joking as well) especially since drealmer did have other content to be read off by that stage. Which means I'm siding with Accountant on this one.

DDD quite possibly knows me well enough (and even if he doesn't it's already been discussed in this game) to know how paranoid I sometimes get about buddying. Also, given that anyone likely to listen to me would NOT be on the list of people who were/are scumreading him, the potential reward would be far less than the risk.

Eh, yeah ok, but I don't think it helps him as either alignment. So as I said, it's not really a town tell so much as a "wtf you been smoking?" thing There's an argument for being more self conscious than that as scum I guess. I just think it's nonsensical as either alignment and I generally expect Appeal to Authority more from fresh newbs so ???

That's the point. Scum are a lot less likely to do unhelpful things than Town are.
It's not an AtA as much as it is an appeal to someone he's played with in the past.

@Accountant: Right, because I'm well-known for tunneling my buddy into the ground in every scumgame.

I begin to forsee a Dragon compromise wagon and I think I like it.

[goodmorning]

guys can we stop w/the associatives before flips thing???????

[goodmorning]

It's the only actually explicable reason.

Not everybody on a compromise wagon has to be compromising.

[goodmorning]

ugh they better not be

they cause so much confbias it isn't even funny

[goodmorning]

lol @ me being set up as the eventual D2 compromise lynch over the last couple pages.

--

I have some bones to pick with that DDD case but I'll let him pick them first.

[goodmorning]

lol @ me being set up as the eventual D2 compromise lynch over the last couple pages.

--

I have some bones to pick with that DDD case but I'll let him pick them first.

Pick away, it's not as if you're not going to vote me anyway. I've literally had enough with you always hanging back and letting others do things for you, and never explaining anything yet demanding that I explain everything I've said to you when I've already explained it to the person concerned.

He says you haven't explained satisfactorily, and I agree with him.

I'm not going to answer a case aimed at someone else until they've answered it first; that's bad play. I haven't "let" anyone do anything for me, nor do I think that anyone has.

[goodmorning]

Wouldn't it be funny if it were copper AND DDD and we were all just arguing for no reason?

[goodmorning]

lol @ me being set up as the eventual D2 compromise lynch over the last couple pages.

--

I have some bones to pick with that DDD case but I'll let him pick them first.

Pick away, it's not as if you're not going to vote me anyway. I've literally had enough with you always hanging back and letting others do things for you, and never explaining anything yet demanding that I explain everything I've said to you when

I've already explained it to the person concerned.

He says you haven't explained satisfactorily, and I agree with him.

I'm not going to answer a case aimed at someone else until they've answered it first; that's bad play. I haven't "let" anyone do anything for me, nor do I think that anyone has.

Who's "he"? The post I was replying to was from yourself.

[goodmorning]

"The person concerned" is surely DDD since the case is on him, no?

[goodmorning]

@Acct: Depends what you mean by 'emotional'.

"The person concerned" is surely DDD since the case is on him, no?

Yes, but at the time you wrote this DDD had not responded to the case, so I thought it was quite an odd thing to say.

No, but he'd responded to some of your earlier jabs which I assumed you were talking about.

--

jon! Let's wrongtunnel each other again or something!

[goodmorning]

I think Accountant says a lot of words.

And Jae is correct about the DayTalk thing.

[goodmorning]

There's no real way Accountant is happening today.

I think you should wait for jon to catch up first.

[goodmorning]

W I F O M !

[goodmorning]

@ironstove: I don't see how you come to that conclusion.

[goodmorning]

Fluff? I have s minor complaint (request). While ISOing I'm finding a lot of quote strips that have no reference as to who you are talking sbout. At the time it may be obvious, but going back over ISOs, its not always obvious. Quoting the first post (or part thereof), then quote stripping the rest (pertaining to the person) would help cut down on confusion. TIA

If you're referring to mine, they always refer back to the last name quoted.

@GM, if there a reason you're sitting your vote on copper right now instead of joining in on the dragon pivot?

And this will seem cruel because it is, but is there a reason you insist on talking to iron like he's people? Several people have asked him to participate in a useful fashion and he just doubles down on the same nonsense, why do you think this time you'll actually get a worthwhile response?

A. Dragon's at, like, L-2. Also, I'm B. not in any hurry and C. still hoping that a copper wagon somehow happens.

I know he's capable of participating, so maybe, if I do the same thing over and over again, eventually I'll get a different result.

One thing to remember, when I jumped in and started looking over the thread, these things were being discussed. And what I pointed out then looked like slips to me. So I investigated. What strikes me as strange, no one else is chiming in. Except accountant, who I think is Town. I get all WIFOMy.

Or, possibly, we've been over them already. Like you said, you're late to the dance.

Convincingly what?

[goodmorning]

I mean, I've been on the copper wagon all day.

I think we're scumreading copper for different reasons though.

[goodmorning]

I mean that Accountant and I have different reasons for scumreading copper. That's all.

[goodmorning]

I have never been lynched as town, I have never reached lylo as town (other than as a tree-stump) and in a newbie I have never survived past D2 as town, this is how bad some of you are, read the flip and weep at your ineptitude.

l o l
I've said it before:
If one place you go smells of shit it's probably a poorly-cleaned public convenience. If every place you go smells of shit you may want to check your shoes.

I think copper is town guaranteed after that post

ugh, seriously???

A. Dragon's at, like, L-2. Also, I'm B. not in any hurry and C. still hoping that a copper wagon somehow happens.

Explain to me the big preference for copper over Dragon?

Given that it's unlikely they're both Scum, Dragon seems the more likely of the two to be Town (albeit very silly Town) than copper does.

I know he's capable of participating, so maybe, if I do the same thing over and over again, eventually I'll get a different result.

I mean I know you were invoking it yourself but that's the "definition" of insanity.

Well, you slightly modify it, prodding with kindness or insults or questions or comments, appealing to ego or fear or whatever. Eventually it probably happens. I mean, he's already asked jon some questions.

[goodmorning]

what is even the point of changing your vote before the person you voted even comes around to see it

[goodmorning]

ffs, even jiffy's ego isn't this huge

[goodmorning]

It's totally different: they're equally likely to be Scum, probably both aren't, but Dragon is more likely to be Town.
When I put myself in his shoes, I can see where a townie could have posted some of that silliness. I can't say the same for copper.

[goodmorning]

We're nearly at 1000 posts. This is not early in the game.

[goodmorning]

vca is

so great

, you guys

SO GREAT

[goodmorning]

ALSO TWO SCUM DON'T USUALLY COME IN AND DO THE EXACT SAME THINGS

[goodmorning]

BECAUSE YOU ARE FRUSTRATING.

--

We're nearly at 1000 posts. This is not early in the game.

By early in the game, I mean it's D1 and we have no flips, how can you figure out an alignment if you don't even know flips?

idk, maybe try ACTUALLY READING PEOPLE'S POSTS AND INTERACTING WITH THE GAME MAYBE????????????

It's totally different: they're equally likely to be Scum, probably both aren't, but Dragon is more likely to be Town.
When I put myself in his shoes, I can see where a townie could have posted some of that silliness. I can't say the same for copper.

Only in mafia does this sort of argument make any sense (and it does). What sort of silliness?

The you-scum case that they put forward, for instance.
copper backed down; Dragon didn't.

@Dragon: You should definitely post final reads. Don't claim until intent is given though.

Well the issue is that when I am lynched and flip town, you'll probably be next, as I won't be around to argue against your lynch and most people seem to think either you or I is scum. So I'd rather not die,

knowing that my death will likely cause the death of another townie

. I would be fine with my lynch if you agreed to lynch DDD tomorrow after my flip, but it seems like that's not going to happen.

what

[goodmorning]

"I get fear-killed N1 or N2 as town all the time or otherwise lynched D2 due to burden of proficiency because my reads are usually good"
"lol u suck ever think of that?"

GM...stahp.

idk why you should take his word for it

but o k t h e n

I think copper is town guaranteed after that post

ugh, seriously???

yes, seriously. As a supposed tone reader you should have felt that too. That's not the seething rage of caught scum.

That's

the seething rage of

a

good

player about to be lynched for playing the way he always plays

. I'm not letting it happen.

I agree wholeheartedly with the underlined; I think it reads as "Scum caught for what he thinks are the wrong reasons, but sees the possibility of slithering out of a lynch if he only throws Dragon to the wolves."

As ironstove pointed out (912), copper's Dragon vote was pretty opportunistic. As I'm going to point out right here, copper's 939 is tonally inconsistent with his 913. 929 is a thinly-veiled attempt to take a moral high ground he's not actually entitled to RE: the DDD wagon.

But, you know, you can drink the AtE koolaid if you want.

[goodmorning]

@Jae: I don't know how on earth Dragon can possibly think copper is Town unless copper is actually Town and Dragon is Scum.

[goodmorning]

[ftr i am now entirely unwilling to vote anyone but copper today]

[goodmorning]

You go on and push me, I can guarantee it won't happen.

[goodmorning]

Also FUN FACT: I've played with copper before! I'm NOT SCUMREADING HIM FOR HIS DUMBASS PLAYSTYLE!

[goodmorning]

@DDD: Yes, but that's not what it looks like.

[goodmorning]

i now understand the urges people have to do stupid things.

I'm also still unwilling to vote Dragon or DDD.

[goodmorning]

Well, at least now we won't have 20-page arguments about who misunderstood what post.

I still have a townread on Jae. Other than that, I'm scrapping everything and restarting.

p-edit: Doc, JK, or BP.

[goodmorning]

Actually I also still scumread Dragon.

[goodmorning]

Tempted to sheep Jae but it's probably a little early for L-1.

@Lion: Then why wouldn't they actually come up with something decent?

[goodmorning]

A. Lion, asking what changed your mind so much is a VALID QUESTION.
B. Accountant, don't troll him.

[goodmorning]

ugh why

[goodmorning]

i don't want it

[goodmorning]

He was the only one that was 100% town due to the sheer amount of venom dripping from his final reads post.

I look forward to the day when you come up against a Scum who's really good at AtE.

--

Still reading.

[goodmorning]

I've never thought of Scumcho as AtE-heavy but I suppose YMMV.

--

Fine; intent to hammer DDD in ~18 hours' time.

[goodmorning]

Lion, the question is: you said you weren't going to vote copper. Then you voted him. What changed your mind?

If you're not going to answer it from Acct, at least answer it from me please.

[goodmorning]

also stop sounding reasonable, it's not fair

[goodmorning]

Yea forget this I'm lynching DDD and I don't care what you say GL

Make your case. I believe Jae believes his read (but I think he's wrong). I don't know your case on anyone really. You just seem to go with the flow.

@ anyone scum reading DDD, please make a concise case. I think he's Town.

yeah, well, i did too, but i'm still feeling kinda dispirited so currently don't give a shit

Why don't you give us some reasons why he's town?

i feel like i have said the words 'burden of proof' to you in this game already.

ask yourself why there would be two L-1 wagons on D1, both on townies, and nobody switching for ages until GL delivered the hammer.

i think this probably happens a lot more than you think it does. a couple possible reasons off the top of my head:
-scum didn't want to look guilty for hammer
-scum felt like they couldn't switch in a way that would seem natural
-there's no real reason to have preferred one town lynch over the other
-scum were busy doing other things
-lion is scum who got tired of waiting despite the above reasons
-people are rarely sensible

Ironstove might be a good vote.

nah

@lion: that makes sense, thanks

[goodmorning]

jae at least 60% of the people on his wagon were town

but ok, you do you

[goodmorning]

Why don't you give us some reasons why he's town?

i feel like i have said the words 'burden of proof' to you in this game already.

It's not as if I haven't already said why I think DDD is scum, is it? Why are you defending him when he's just said something and not backed it up with anything?

I'm not defending anyone or anything except my right not to see people use stupid logical fallacies to try to prove their points, because there's been way too much of that in this game already and I'm really done with it.

You have said why you think he's Scum. I said I had bones to pick with your case and then forgot to pick them, so I'll do that when I get home.

--

Well the issue is that when I am lynched and flip town, you'll probably be next, as I won't be around to argue against your lynch and most people seem to think either you or I is scum. So I'd rather not die,

knowing that my death will likely cause the death of another townie

. I would be fine with my lynch if you agreed to lynch DDD tomorrow after my flip, but it seems like that's not going to happen.

what

It wasn't forever, it was like a day and why would scum need to change their mind? Changing your mind and lynching a townie looks awful, look how much shit everyone is giving GL for it. Why would scum who were safely ensconced on their wagons of choice feel the need to do anything when GL was going to have to decide and take the fall for them?

So you're implying that you know GL is town... only scum know others' alignment for sure. You might have slipped there.

^just to point out that Dragon did a thing he thinks is scummy.
Not like Town never do that, but...

--

Going over my own ISO, I noticed something that makes me pretty sure DDD is actually Town. ironstove's slot is Town. Jae is Town. Lion is probably Town. This leaves me with {Dragon, jon, Accountant}.

[goodmorning]

@ gm can you describe why iron is Town? Tia

The guy in his slot before was Town. I don't see why you think he's Scum, except the troll thing, but that's NAI.

--

I don't have scumreads so much as I have PoE.

--

I mean, I don't really think it's a problem.

[goodmorning]

guys why aren't we lynching dragon actually? that's the wagon that got away, not ddd's.

response to dragon case shortly

[goodmorning]

Okay. Here is my (mediocre) case on DDD:

I'm doing the rest of this with quotes within the spoiler.

Spoiler:

I think this quote of copper's sums up the bad feeling I got from oncilla's posts. Fun fact: I PM'd GiF to ask to replace in when oncilla and Kuroshira were being replaced (obviously I didn't get either slot). I did a quick ISO of oncilla to see what he'd posted so far, and after reading it I was pretty sure that I was going to replace into a scum-slot. It's not what oncilla did, it's more what he didn't do: his attitude was more as if he was looking for scapegoats than someone who was actively trying to find scum. Here's the quote from copper:

Anyway going back to my oncilla suspicions, I was thinking about why my gut wasn't happy with his posting (because on the surface he seems to be scum-hunting well) and I remember a good read serrapaladin gave in a game; most (newbie) town players will go through the thread linearly, they see something, comment about it, move on to the next thing that happened, read it, give their opinion etc... but oncilla seems to be selectively picking out some of the points of contention in the thread and always finding a reason for why that's potentially scummy, I think that could point at a different motive compared to trying to game-solve.

When I first replaced in, I said I agreed with this and I still do.

serra is not correct. Different newbies play differently. It's playstyle. Playstyle is NAI.

Now onto DDD and his first post. I have no particular problem with the levity, brevity and quick catch-up style of his post, just a few things. First, drealmerz's joke, which I know has already been done to death. My issue is that he didn't explain it right away, only when he was under pressure with three votes on him, at L-2. I just don't see this kind of behaviour coming from a townie who assumes everyone understands his townread on drealmerz. Personally I try and explain my reads, and if asked I will explain further. But to everyone except DDD, that joke looked NAI, so I can't understand why he assumed we would understand it instantly. Most people probably thought DDD was joking himself when he said that. Anyway, enough of that.

If anyone didn't understand, they ought to have asked. They didn't. Therefore DDD could safely assume that people understood. This is not hard.

Good votes: Jae, copper, Ast

~~

Checking votes placed.

VOTE: Jae

Although DDD has explained this partially already, I still find it scummy that he votes Jae (out of his "good votes" list) solely because Jae already has a vote on him. I don't see why he'd do this. It's almost as if he didn't want to vote someone who currently had no votes on them. I understand his given reason was "pressure", but at that point a vote and an explained scumread on either copper or Asty/me would qualify as pressure as well. It just seems too opportunistic to me.

This is reachy as fuck. Yes, he didn't want to vote anyone who wasn't being voted; if you have three scumreads of roughly equal strength that's a pretty sensible tiebreaker.

If that were true it would make me an obnoxious and a silly person, so why are you voting me again?

Because I have a bunch of town reads and you aren't one of them.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: copper

This is quite blatant OMGUS, and deserves to be treated as so. DDD completely abandons his "pressure" vote on Jae for no apparent reason and votes for copper. Even if I didn't know it was a reaction test, I would find copper's post weird rather than outright scummy, and I would have asked him to explain his scumread instead of a straight-up vote. And now begins the DDD-copper war.

A. It seems you don't actually know what OMGUS is!
B. Just because you don't find something scummy doesn't mean someone else doesn't - we're all DIFFERENT PEOPLE with DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.
C. Pretty sure copper had already explained his 'scumread'.

Other points of contention are town-reading Drealmer for 104 (or omitting the reason for why he is town-reading him but mentioning 104), town-reading GM again without much substance and ending up with a scum-read on Jae when his last point admonishes what can only be town Jae not to assume malevolence when misunderstanding suffices.

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

I view this as a misrep of what copper was saying there. He wasn't calling DDD out for levity and brevity, he was calling him out for trying to justify his read on drealmerz based on his joke post. Again, a townie would have clarified that that was why he were townreading drealmerz, and would have explained it. But DDD just twisted his words and turned it into an accusation.

No, DDD got what copper was saying there EXACTLY RIGHT. copper said 'there's no substance to your dreal and gm reads' which is exactly what DDD responds to.

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

This is a misrep of what he is saying.

Disagree.

When Accountant called DDD out for the misrep, he just replied with a one-word answer instead of talking it out with him, as if he was trying to change the subject as quickly as possible.

Some things are so dumb it hurts to respond to them.

inb4 amished.

Did this one leak out or do we still keep it amongst ourselves in the cool kid club? I scratched my chin over that as well; it doesn't reach the level of critical assessment that I'd usually demand but when I think about it more there's not a good weird that you'd mention, it's almost certainly setting the table for exactly what the Amished tell was found to catch.

Ast was in my initial "good votes" list, I think this solidly locks Dragonfire in it. Scum-copper is still a better vote for now though.

Again, the Amished thing just looks opportunistic. While others, like GM, mentioned the Amished but didn't scumread me for it, you immediately jump on it. As if you didn't find Asty's posts weird too.

DDD's super old-school. Believing in the Amished makes sense from that perspective.

See here's the fundamental issue, everyone else "got" my post other than you. It makes me really skeptical that it was so confusing for you to understand. And instead of asking questions, like I'd expect someone who was interested in the truth to do if they didn't understand something, you went on the attack.

One of the scummiest things I've seen from him. As I've mentioned before, DDD is calling him scum for being "the odd one out". Not everyone else "got" his post, and saying that is just arrogance. In fact, this is quite hypocritical as it was DDD who went on the attack rather than explaining his thought processes.

All of this is, of course, based on the assumption that copper's attack on DDD was a reaction test and that copper is town, both of which I am fairly sure of.

See what I said above about questions and understanding. Also, copper chose to attack DDD rather than question him.

Why does she have an obligation to help someone she's scum reading by providing them reasons to be argued and refuted?

This is also scummy, as he is assuming that people should treat their scumreads as lock scum, and not even consider the possibility of them being town. Townies should always consider that they might be wrong, and the best way to ascertain that is to maintain discussion, instead of writing them off as scum.

That's not what that says at all. That is not it, at all.

Here's the issue, why are you just asking this question of me now? Both you and copper don't bother talking with me, don't bother asking specific questions; you label my post weird and/or scummy and that get further baffled when I attack that. If you were actually interested in the answer to this question, this wouldn't be the first time you brought it up.

As if it was the first time he brought it up. And he should have definitely explained his thought process earlier if he was town.

This argument is still gross for all the reasons in all the places above. You fight fire with fire, for fuck's sake.

No, you and copper apparently can't see it, I have no idea what iron does or does not see and no one else seems to think it's a strange position. But newb-scum have two possible routes they go, they either are lost about how to fake scum hunt and their biggest priority is failing into the background where no one notices them and they can let their partner do the heavy lifting or they chime in to promote a town/town fight, they do not crack jokes unrelated to anything else that would draw attention more attention to them. Or, they know how to fake scum hunt and they are very good and very thorough projecting the right image of industrious scumhunting, however, they almost always lack levity because they're focused on their act and thus don't tell unrelated jokes. A joke like that comes from someone who is very comfortable in their position and new scum almost never is.

I do like this explanation, but it does somehow feel as if he's just brought it up now that he's being accused. Unhelpfulness is not townie behaviour.

R E A C H Y
NOBODY EVER ASKED HIM!!!

Don't forget the part where my initial post is scummy for not explaining everything in minute detail and then when it's explained logically suddenly I just made up those reasons despite the fact that I pretty clearly was willing to go to the mat for the post. So the argument is that as scum, I made up a bunch of nonsense, then instead of treating it as a joke defended that nonsense aggressively, and only later came up with exact reasons that match my initial post. For reasons, I really can't fathom what advantage I would gain from doing this but motivations don't matter in dragon-world. Oh wait, the reason is that Dragon doesn't want to break the wagon he's on despite it going from bad to shite.

Again, his response, as ever, is to call me scum because I'm voting him and misrep what I was saying. Already been through this.

A. No, there are plenty of reasons to call you Scum, and you should stop falsely accusing people of OMGUS if you ever want to be taken seriously [Boy Who Cried Wolf].
B. He's not even talking about what you said, he's talking about what copper said. So the misrep here is all yours.
C. Yes, we have. It's almost like your case is the same three ridiculous things repeated ad nauseum.

VOTE: dragon

Opportunistic vote

VOTE: dragon

I actually had moved him slightly ahead of copper lately on my preferred scum list but I didn't want to break what little momentum we had, big fan of this.

At least Accountant had the guts to say it was opportunistic. DDD's vote is even more so. And that justification is just awful, of course he'd say that. He must be feeling so pleased right now to finally be pushing a mislynch which nobody disagrees with.

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[goodmorning]

By any measure of "that wagon got away," Dragon's got away more.

I get that some percentage of that was me.

[goodmorning]

being dead doesn't automatically make you right jae

[goodmorning]

I've ignored your accusations because they're silly.

Not sure what you think you would gain from me saying 'lol, nope' every time you suggest it.

[goodmorning]

I mean, we could be confidently wrong.

But I think this is a game where my townreads are going to be solid and my scumreads are going to be a pile of stupid.

[goodmorning]

Also that's not what jon was asking you.

[goodmorning]

guys, please

associatives before flips are worse than the Orlando City game I just witnessed


and i say witnessed instead of saw




because it was literally a crime

[goodmorning]

@Dragon: On the other hand, if the less scummy partner is a universal Townread, they're more likely to be JK'd (for protection), and Scum don't know the setup.

[goodmorning]

I don't want to.

If he does by some miracle flip Scum, Jae will never listen to a word from anyone but copper at any point.

If I'm right and he does flip Town, it puts us in MyLo, probably, plus I've lynched someone I think is Town who's also reasonable, which in this game is a MASSIVE UNLIKELIHOOD.

[goodmorning]

which post is that? i stopped reading most of copper's after the third time he insulted me.

[goodmorning]

No reason for Scum not to do it - nobody believes what the universal scumread says or acts on it in any way, and as an added bonus he gets to hold the WK card if copper does go down, as looked pretty inevitable at that point.

Or he could have done what copper suggests there - suddenly reverse himself and put copper at L-1 as if nobody here thinks inconsistency is a scumtell.

Weirdly, I don't think Dragon is that stupid.

[goodmorning]

hey, lion is back

nifty

[goodmorning]

ironstove don't be silly

[goodmorning]

accountant don't be silly

[goodmorning]

DDD that's not even close to the most ridiculous thing anyone's said this game

[goodmorning]

Vote: Dragon

btw.

I'm back in it.

[goodmorning]

(L-1)

[goodmorning]

GUYS, IRON IS SCUM, REFUSES TO LYNCH DRAGON, SCUMTEAM IS DRAGON/IRON. GAME IS SOLVED. THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING.

[goodmorning]

but if we lynch ddd today and he is scum then tomorrow isn't mylo/lylo at all.


not to mention the nk could fail again.

[goodmorning]

your thought process is internally inconsistent.

[goodmorning]

um, no

it's 'jae has already demonstrated willingness to ignore what they disagree with.'

DDD is flipping town if you lynch him anyway so it's kinda moot.

[goodmorning]

There's something specific that nearly confirms DDD is Town, but I can't tell you what it is because telling you would be much worse play than not telling you.

That's it. I'm not saying any more about it.

[goodmorning]

Guys, stop trying to make me talk about [redacted]. It's SUPER ANTI-TOWN.

@jon- Dragon made a case. I recently responded. ISO me and look for the spoiler.

[goodmorning]

Guys, stop trying to make me talk about [redacted]. It's SUPER ANTI-TOWN.

@jon- Dragon made a case. I recently responded. ISO me and look for the spoiler.

You haven't been subtle about it. I just don't believe in what you believe in. I think he is just scum.

I don't believe what you think I believe at all. There was something from someone else that involves [redacted] that was posted D1 that I'm reasonably certain he would have seen and understood.

[goodmorning]

GM, what was the point of posting "DDD is town because of [thing]"? Do you think you have some particular credibility with someone who is voting for me that a relatively blank statement would sway them? Are you actually feeling pressure to justify yourself and do you think your answer adequately justifies yourself to that pressure? Enlighten me.

It's new. I didn't notice it until recently, right around when I started caring again.

@Lion: I mean, we

could

vote Acct, but Dragon is right there in your pool and a more appetizing target, so...

I want to see if Jae is bothering to update his view of the gamestate (and it turns out he's not).

I could have told you that.

[goodmorning]

I mean, Dragon could just be Town with the most extreme case of confbias ever.

But I doubt it.

--

My thinking is that at some point, something I say HAS to make Jae interact with the present instead of clinging to the past. Jae is the person I am most sure is Town; Jae is the person I most want to not be wasting their slot by not caring; Jae is the person I most want to work with & understand the thought processes of. Besides all that, Jae's pretty good at deciphering my 'cryptic' stuff, for someone I've only played with once.

[goodmorning]

btw @Jae: I still don't understand why

you

think DDD is Scum.

You.

Not copper.

[goodmorning]

I even went back in your ISO to look but I got back some distance before the D1 lynch and I still didn't see it. So please explain if you want to actually entice anyone off my preferred wagon and onto yours.

Feel free to use evidence from D2 in your argument as well.

--

also, where tf did jon go?

[goodmorning]

@Jae 1300:
1. Bussing is a thing. You're not infallible. "My scumread/s is/are on this wagon" is therefore an argument that does not and has not ever made any sense to me. (Also, what do you do if there are 2 wagons and you have 1 scumread on each??)
2. I'm really sick of this fallacy that giving reads just tells Scum where to kill. It doesn't. Scum aren't stupid - they can read between the lines as well as anyone else. They can look at the VCs and see who never gets voted. They can look at everyone's posts and see who never really gets questioned, who nobody posts things like "this post is maybe kinda weird" about. Besides which, you're already a universal townread - a prime target for Scum. You want to potentially die and leave no reads behind?
You know what reads do? Reads help Town know what everyone's thinking. Reads help us hold players to something, point out when they about-face for no good reason. Reads can make us reassess our own views of the game. Town has SO LITTLE INFO. Why deprive us of even more?

/things-i-feel-strongly-about lecture

Take your time. We've got 4 days.

[goodmorning]

iron why don't you actually do something useful

[goodmorning]

1. Or both your scumreads are voting each other. Bussing in Newbies is as efficacious as bussing anywhere else. Also I've done some of the math on it and it's roughly equally common across game types (slightly less in Opens, slightly more in Larges, especially LTs, due to larger scumteams).
2. Perhaps not. Town has a harder time reading between the lines, because only Scum know what alignments everyone are, what their motivations behind posting certain things are likely to be. I don't know why you think Dragon couldn't be Scum with Acct or jon. No-lynching today would not be helpful. Even a mislynch would be better.
I don't know what makes you so sure the three wagons couldn't possibly have all been on Town, because it happens. I'll grant you that I agree they probably weren't in this case.
I don't want to rush you, but case soon please.

[goodmorning]

Is your entire case going to be associative-based? Because I'm not about that life.

I'll go through and respond properly in the morning.

[goodmorning]

1. Bussing in a newbie is incredibly bad play tbh. But eh that's personal opinion. Maybe I'll change my mind when I actually get to be scum. Also, you didn't say that both my scumreads were supposed to be voting each other in that scenario. Scum don't often cross-bus in newbies from my experience so far.
2. Your concern was that town wouldn't know my reads if I died tonight. So town would know my alignment by that stage and be able to figure out from there what my reads were through my actions/interactions.

The movements around the wagons, the fighting to try to get the lynch off copper and it still ending up on him... I could go on. Basically, the way D1 played out surrounding the lynch very strongly suggests that DDD is scum.

1. I mean, I said it was equally efficacious anywhere. I personally find bussing to be a very low-percentage play which is why I don't often engage in it even though everyone knows that by now. I can't tell you the rate of cross-bussing but I can tell you that 88% of successful D1 Newbie game wagons on Scum have a Scum on them, and that only a few of those are self-hammers. (Which stat kind of proves the previous point about bussing, now that I look at it.)
2. At this point I'm as certain as one can be before flips that you're Town, and I know three. I knew two before the post below.

Wagon analysis is the entire reason I started tracking VCA. It doesn't actually work very well. Remember who is in the majority responsible for wagons growing and dying - the

uninformed

majority.

RE: Spoiler: Calling me incompetent was meant to put me in his pocket? I almost lolhammered him to end D1.

You can reference my response to Dragon's case for whether I think DDD was misrepping copper at any point (spoiler: no).

I think you and I have really different views of the game in general and this game in particular.

Now, I have a question. You know I'm shit at casing. You could have figured that out from Donner Party maf and also from my early case on you. Why would you then push me to case my scumread if not to just do the same thing as you did to Dragon when he cased him? (which boiled down to "nup" "lol" "you're wrong" without much actual rebuttal)

Like, I feel like you've just made me do the legwork so you can refuse to listen anyway. There's no point. I'm not lynching Dragon, because I think all the scum are in {jon, GL, DDD} and all of them are voting Dragon. IF Dragon ends up being scum, then obviously I'm wrong and jon was bussing. But that requires DDD to be town, and he's not imo.

Accountant's tone is different to when they were scum in the game we played fairly recently. Actually feels genuine. I've already mentioned this.

What else was there to say? If Dragon goes 'this is a misrep' and I go, 'no, he's responding to what copper said/meant, which is obviously X,' is that not actual rebuttal? Just went back and looked and I don't see a single place where I just went 'nope, not true' and moved on. Are you shit at casing? It was good enough to help get me dead. But if you're bad, you should practice maybe??????

It's not about refusing to listen. I'm trying very hard to listen. I just really want ANYBODY to give me one believable reason DDD could be Scum because

I don't see it

. There are three people sat on that wagon and none of you seem to me to have any good reason to be there. And arguing that he should have talked associatives, or arguing that copper said DDD had to be Scum if you were Town - those aren't believable or good to me. And I'll stress this - TO ME. Other people have different views and playstyles and that's fine.

So basically you don't think they can be Scum together because you think Acct's really Town. That's fine, if not exactly what I was asking. What about jon?

[goodmorning]

only you can prevent forest fires.

[goodmorning]

Jae, I have ACTUAL MATH that says otherwise. To rely on the anecdotal when you have numbers is unscientific in the extreme.

I'm asking you what possible associatives you could weigh SO STRONGLY.

[goodmorning]

Also I am really tired of people questioning whether I'm qualified to IC. I am nearing FIFTY IC GAMES. I have dealt with this shit in maybe two. You want to know the other one I remember for sure? Some LEEROY JENKINS asshole who replaced into a universally townread PR slot and fucking claimed on the spot.

I am tired of egomaniacs getting my back up and prodding me until I act like an asshole. I try SO FUCKING HARD not to. I keep my ego in check, I keep the self-aggrandizement down, I play a quiet game, and I try very hard not to show what a bad-tempered asshole I am by calling people names or implying that they're morons.



In the end, I can say only one thing with any certainty: this is the first time I've ever been questioned by someone I had any kind of respect for.

And it really fucking sucks.

V/LA for ~a day.

I wouldn't bother announcing it but it's almost deadline and you should probably know I'm breaking from this for a day.

[goodmorning]

I mean, Accountant's pretty erratic regardless, but yeah, I'd lynch that.

Also I'm back. Let's do the deadline quickwagon againnnnnn

[goodmorning]

I have actually never been accused of being a bad IC when I was Scum except for activity reasons which don't technically apply and also were on purpose.

p-edit: explain please iron

[goodmorning]

I thought maybe you'd see sense after copper flipped that DDD absolutely was the only next viable lynch, and instead we end up in stupid theory arguments because we both have vastly different opinions on how to play.

I already voiced disagreement with this opinion so let me be abundantly clear.

I held the hammer at the end of D1 and saw two competing wagons. It is

extremely

rare for D1 in a Newbie to be TvS, in my many games of mafia here I don't think I remember it happening more than once or twice.

You know what I see all the time instead? TvT wagons, where scum don't care which one get lynched. How can the end of D1 read as anything but that as you? No one was willing to budge and move off their wagon and instead everyone in the game was willing to defer responsibility of choosing the lynch to me. That

screams

two mislynches.

To lynch the counterwagon is extremely bad play and what gets you MYLO/LYLO D3 nearly every time.

Note he says this but Dragon was also a copper cw. He's trying to set it up to sound like there weren't three wagons. He is on and pushing a counterwagon to copper yet berating people on the DDD wagon for doing the same.

GL is scum. But the first person I need flipped is DDD.

tbf dragon was a copper

substitute

wagon but ok.

Also, I've played with Scum Acct and I can't say that his play here is completely inconsistent with his scumplay.

[goodmorning]

That's because they have been.

I'm almost tempted to lynch DDD despite everything.

[goodmorning]

iron i don't bus

[goodmorning]

I don't like this but we shouldn't NL and deadline is ??? soon.

Vote: DDD

[goodmorning]

I have some thoughts. It's going to be difficult to express them.

I'm thinking about it.

[goodmorning]

I don't really know why we're speculating about this.

[goodmorning]

I think we're probably lynching DDD today.

I feel pretty indifferent to that at this point.

Those are my thoughts.

[goodmorning]

It was actually quite difficult. There's a lot of other stuff tangled up in there that I completely failed to adequately express.

[goodmorning]

jae what are you talking about


ddd it's this fucking game

[goodmorning]

jae, lion doesn't really look that scummy is what i meant

[goodmorning]

Actually, I'd expect Scum to approach a wagon on their RB exactly as I've approached the DDD wagon.


Make of that what you all will.

[goodmorning]

i think that might have been hammer??????

[goodmorning]

No, it's definitely four. You, iron, jon, Dragon.

I'd be annoyed with it but we've all said everything there is to say as of yesterday so...

[goodmorning]

I think Accountant probably just read me well but LET'S NOT SPECULATE ON THAT STILL FFS

[goodmorning]

Jae was the only person who actually looked Town this game.

At least now you all know why I wasn't trying super hard to look Town?????? The second everyone started townreading me, I was like, well, I'm dead now.

I townread DDD entirely because I softed PR pretty hard near the end of D1 (when I was too mad, bro) and was pretty sure he would have seen it and blocked/killed me were he Scum. Otherwise he was totally null to me.

If anyone wants me to say IC things I can try.

[goodmorning]

Idunno what I could have done to save you after the speculation started on you being the cop clear when you clearly were. Ideas? I mean it was also painfully obvious to me D2 that if you were town you were doc with a save on me so I assume that falls true for the scum team as well? So I don't know if there was anything I could do myself.

I did consider fakeclaiming something like BP or JK to make it even harder on scum and try to draw another shot N2, but in the end I thought it'd fuck with the town PRs too much for me to do so. So I kept being allergic to gambits as I usually am. It's not really a good thing to teach in newbies anyway I think.

DDD's vote on me D2 looked a lot like he was trying to work out what happened with the nightkill and wanted to run me up to get info on it. Either through my claim or someone else's. That also contributed to my certainty that DDD was scum.

I was already starting to be paranoid that Scum had no-kill gambitted so it's probably very good indeed.

--

@copper: Contrary to popular belief, I'm not by the computer 24/7. Also contrary to popular belief, the IC's job is actually nothing more than to explain the game to newer players, truthfully answering their theory questions. We are not expected to be particularly correct, nor to lead the town.
RE: People telling Mina what they think of me: you're welcome to, but I'd hope you keep it short because being the Newbie ListMod is a pretty massive timesink as it is.

Also, while we're at it, I have indeed played plenty of games outside Rome. I've found that 9p is the size I prefer, and you may notice the Micro Queue these days is 90% "Idea" Mafias which really barely qualify. Besides, this is where I get to see the up-and-comers who'll be kicking everyone's asses come next year.

I wouldn't have had half as much of a problem with your play had you not smothered the game by posting SO MUCH. I just checked - you STILL have the most posts in this thread, despite being the D1 lynch, and they got SO LONG by the end of it. I usually say 25% more posts than the next-highest-posting slot is borderline too many; at one point you had, I believe, 100% more posts. And they were mostly not one-liners, either.

Also: If you had said some of the things you said to me to certain other people on this site, you would currently be chewing on a Jiffy ban.

--

@Dragon: Before I forget, I wanted to apologise. It can be difficult making cases at times and it sucks when you're sure but they somehow seem to out-talk you with the audience you're courting. So: I'm sorry for that. I was feeling a bit pigheaded this game; it's nothing you did.

--

@iron: I wish you'd tried to explain a bit more. Thank you for loudly scumreading me though, that was helpful in a lot of ways.

[goodmorning]

I should say: Scum hardly ever no-kill gambit, because it's bad play for the same reason Town shouldn't NL D1. I'm just exceedingly paranoid as a PR.

[goodmorning]

If I had thought DDD was too far out of line I would have asked him to rein it in. I didn't and don't. (It is also, as he says, not the IC's job.) People get frustrated. If you can't deal with someone frustrated saying something slightly too harsh in the heat of the moment, this is probably not the game for you. That's part of how we play Mafia here, and it's a completely appropriate thing to see in an introduction.

Is it good play to hammer someone you think is Town before it becomes absolutely necessary? I really don't think it is.

I'm saying you drowned the game, smothered it. That has nothing to do with your alignment and everything to do with your play - and like I said, that's not good play.

iron was absolutely playing uselessly at the time, and that was a completely fair thing to say. I've actually quite enjoyed his play elsewhere.

I'm going to say the person who created the majority of the hostile game environment was the first one to start throwing insults that were a bit too personal.

[goodmorning]

@Lion: I missed your question earlier. No, I didn't especially PR-read Jae, I just didn't see anyone else as Town enough to bother with.

@Dragon: This is actually two different things. Him drowning the thread is just bad play. The thing I scumread was him drowning his own content. If you make your posts long enough, fewer people will read them, in depth or at all. Who doesn't want their posts closely examined?

Also, about your minor confession: knowing when to shut up is actually a huge asset for a player as either alignment and is not a bad thing at all.

[goodmorning]

I agree that baselines can vary.

[goodmorning]

@iron: With your playstyle, as scum you need to lead town to believe you're stubborn town who thinks he found a smoking gun on someone else. Lock your vote onto vanity wagons that will never be lynched and tunnel them until town gets irritated and starts to tune you out.

acct i accidentally this as town sometimes



tho tbf i'm not often wrong on those ones