This brought a player who hadn't even posted yet to L-2 in RVS, and makes me feel like you just voted him cause others had voted him.In post 23, drealmerz7 wrote:Yep, I saw the specifics about modding (and like that it is so), which is another reason I want to get a bunch of games under my belt first so I can get familiar with everything here before thinking about modding.
This game will last 2-3 months? Interesting! I thought I had checked a few newbie 9p games and they were 3-5 weeks, maybe I mis-looked. That's a bit longer than I anticipated, but no big deal.
In that case, let's move things along...
VOTE: staplertowel.
I'm sure that will be looked favorably upon!
Good points, I can see this from his ISO. Having done this as newb-Scum before, I know the mentality.In post 155, copper223 wrote:Anyway going back to my oncilla suspicions, I was thinking about why my gut wasn't happy with his posting (because on the surface he seems to be scum-hunting well) and I remember a good read serrapaladin gave in a game; most (newbie) town players will go through the thread linearly, they see something, comment about it, move on to the next thing that happened, read it, give their opinion etc... but oncilla seems to be selectively picking out some of the points of contention in the thread and always finding a reason for why that's potentially scummy, I think that could point at a different motive compared to trying to game-solve.
I like this, you're acknowledging that the argument isn't getting anywhere and deciding to put it behind you for the moment, as it's causing a distraction from actual scumhunting. I wish I'd done this in my last game!In post 165, drealmerz7 wrote: anyway, you've hit me so many times as scummy and that stuff between jae and GM seems silly too (not as silly as this, mind you), soo, yep, now I figure it is best to chill on it and allow others to make their assessments on us, I mean, feel free to do whatever you were going to do but, I'm pretty much done with this with you unless you have any questions for me that are necessary to clear up.
I like this reasoning too.In post 179, Accountant wrote:The reason I changed my mind about drealmerz is twofold:
1) I was engaged in a protracted argument with him. I'm always suspicious of scumreads arising from stuff like that, because it's statistically unlikely for the person I hop into a game with and immediately get into a shouting match with to just coincidentally happen to be scum. It's far more likely to be confirmation bias - indeed, I found fewer instances of hypocrisy, misrepresentations and inconsistency than I thought existed when I went over both our ISOs in the writing up of the case above.
2) Marquis once said that since town are more likely to appear than scum, it's okay to throw away a body of scummy posts if you find a single post that you think is impossible to come from scum. I have not found such a post, but I have found something that is sufficiently unlikely to come from scum that it outweighs the evidence against drealmerz. Namely, this quote:
Some more good points, I can relate to this.In post 187, copper223 wrote:Because of human nature, once you get into a discussion with someone else you want to prove you are right so you're often going to use the best argument you can come up with regardless of whether it can be applied to what you posted as well, also it's hard not to have a double standard when considering yourself (and knowing your alignment) and other people.
Could you possibly explain your reasons for this vote? (sorry if you already gave reasons a couple of pages ago and I missed them).
Do I know you from somewhere? Sorry if this comes across as rude, but I don't really remember playing with you. You might have been in a Micro game with me where I replaced out Day 1 due to stress and RL events. If so, then hello again.In post 270, goodmorning wrote:I thought your name was familiar. Hi!In post 252, Dragonfire wrote:Hey everyone!
I've heard people talking about Amished tells in a previous game, but wasn't entirely sure what they were. Are you scumreading me because I called Asty's posts "weird"? If so, that's a rather odd reason to scumread someone. To be absolutely honest, when I first messaged GiF with my request to replace Asty, I ISO'd him to see what he'd posted, and some of his earlier posts made me cringe. I'm not sure if you're confusing "weird" with "scummy"; by "weird" I meant "odd" or "strange" rather than "scummy".In post 275, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Did this one leak out or do we still keep it amongst ourselves in the cool kid club? I scratched my chin over that as well; it doesn't reach the level of critical assessment that I'd usually demand but when I think about it more there's not a good weird that you'd mention, it's almost certainly setting the table for exactly what the Amished tell was found to catch.In post 270, goodmorning wrote:inb4 amished.
Ast was in my initial "good votes" list, I think this solidly locks Dragonfire in it. Scum-copper is still a better vote for now though.
I did an ISO of his posts and they gave me towny vibes. If you want specifics I'll go back and look through some of what he said, but from memory they just felt kinda genuine, as if they weren't forced or fabricated.In post 281, Accountant wrote:P -> Q by itself isn't an obvious statement at all so you need to justify that first.
Why stapler?Leaning town - Accountant, drealmerz, copper, Stapler
I'm not sure what you mean by that, can you clarify please?In post 289, goodmorning wrote:It has and it's mostly debunked at this point.
I think it's more weird that Dragonfire would drop suspicion just because of a replacement.
Leaning town, again it's mostly gut and I do like some of the posts / arguments he's made.In post 301, Accountant wrote:Dragon, what do you think about copper?
Okay, here are two of his posts that gave me towny vibes:In post 312, Accountant wrote:I would like to hear more about your read on stapler, so I'll take you up on that
Most newbie scum, upon checking in for the first time and seeing they are at L-2 in RVS, would panic, or start accusing the people who voted for them. For a first-timer, Stapler is remarkably calm and cool about the whole thing, which makes me feel as if he is Town. Also from someone who has also played at EM (but doesn't anymore since I dislike the style of it) I understand how different it is from this type of Mafia. I'd expect a scum who's also an EM player to be much more vocal and accusatory, but maybe that's just me stereotyping EM players.In post 34, StaplerTowel wrote:Hey guys, I just got home. I see everyone's already picking the guy with the funniest name. We're off to a wonderful start.
Just need to take care of work and I'll be back in a few hours, hopefully having read all this lovely wall of text.
Anyways, I'm a long time lurker but a first time player. Ever. I've played a few ranked EM games but that was a long time ago and I imagine chat is different from forum around here. Other than that, I've tried hosting a few games myself, but they weren't really as serious and I was more into hosting just for the flavor. So feel free to lambaste the new guy as it were.
Vote: copper223
See you in a few hours.
I also like his analysis of drealmerz's joke. I don't think a newbie scum would want to draw this much attention to themselves by over-analysing minor pieces of evidence. While I personally think the joke was just a poorly-placed joke in itself, and not alignment-indicative, I see this behaviour as eager, over-analytical town, who is trying hard to find scum by analysing the motivation behind posts.In post 119, StaplerTowel wrote: Whether or not you agree that there was any kind of serious conversation going on before you dropped that joke, it doesn't excuse the fact that it IS a joke, and a really non-sequitur one at that. I was actually stunned by how late that kind of post was because that's usually the kind of joke you make during an RVS, so then I thought you were just trying to sarcastically prove a point that the NL convo was as fruity and over the top as this joke, but no. Apparently you really did mean to play a straight joke and expected us to accept it as nothing.
Possibility 1: You made an inquiry towards Jae, got bored waiting for 33 minutes of nothing, and decided to further develop your persona as verbosely established (something which you were warned against doing btw because of how counter intuitive it is) by making jokes.
Possibility 2: You made the joke on purpose. I mean even if the playstyle of all 11 normal games over wherever were different from how this one was played, you would know that making that kind of post in that moment was highly inappropriate. So I dunno...a gambit? Or possibly a distraction or deflection? I can't possibly be the only person who's thinking this.
I wasn't actually suggesting that oncilla and Asty played in a similar or parallel way at all, my reference to Asty was simply to illustrate my point that one's predecessor's actions/posts should not influence how I read their replacement (to a certain extent of course, depending on what said predecessor has done/said). And I'll stand by the statement that I found Asty's posts weird. I know now that they came from town, but still, they do look weird to me. Call that a scumtell if you like, but it's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.In post 313, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Bold is mine for emphasis; when you said "after all" you're drawing a parallel between oncilla's behavior and that of Asty and it isn't a positive one. Furthermore, I'm certainly not some hardliner who pretends every post has to be super serious and only focused on the game but calling your predecessor's posts "weird" is a little too game related for me to believe it was just casual, pointless chit-chat.In post 268, Dragonfire wrote:I did slightly scumread DDD's predecessor oncilla based on gut feelings, but I should probably put that aside since he has been replaced.After all, my own predecessor said some quite weird things
Oh, hello again thenIn post 316, goodmorning wrote:I was the mod of said Micro!
If you think oncilla's posts were weird, why drop suspicion just because of a replacement?I'm not sure what you mean by that, can you clarify please?In post 289, goodmorning wrote:It has and it's mostly debunked at this point.
I think it's more weird that Dragonfire would drop suspicion just because of a replacement.
![:]](./images/smilies/icon_smiling.png "Cheerful Smile"){kind=icon}
Since I actually replaced him, and therefore I know he was town, they're utterly irrelevant from my point of view. Why are you asking me this?In post 317, Accountant wrote:Dragonfire, are the weirdness of Asty's posts important or relevant in your mind?
Why do you think I'm scum? Is it based on Asty's posts, or mine?In post 332, goodmorning wrote:After rereading the game I'm pretty convinced both Scum are in {copper, Jae, Dragon} with DDD as the very unlikely side candidate.
I also would probably not vote Jae today though.
Could you please explain what beetlejuicing means? Sorry, relative newbie here.In post 335, Accountant wrote:Misguided? Yes. Genuine? Also yes. I don't think that's particularly relevant. If he were beetlejuicing he'd be doing stuff with DDD as well.In post 331, GuiltyLion wrote:
you think his scumread on GM looks genuine? what do you think of him popping into the thread to respond to me yet not doing anything else since I've replaced in?
Oh right -thanks for informing meIn post 349, Accountant wrote:I wanted to get a handle on your mindset. Beetlejuicing means to ignore the thread until someone mentions or accuses you, then you pop back in solely to defend yourself. It's seen as scummy because it means you only care about not getting lynched.
What do you mean by "knowing what [you] know now"? Why would that make Asty's posts scummier?In post 351, goodmorning wrote: Both. Reading back knowing what I know now, his posts look a bit more concerning than I originally felt they were, and yours are just somehow lacking (though I did like your answer ^ so...)
To be honest I think this is TvT. This post illustrates why I think copper is town - the logic does not make sense; why would scum-copper randomly call out first GL, and then both GL and DDD as scum just like that? He would know it would draw attention to him. The fact that it seems out-of-character for copper makes me think that it was a reaction test, and he is town.In post 359, copper223 wrote:If I had prepared the reaction test beforehand (which at least is something I might do as scum) then why would I panic when you push me about it, I failed to consider someone would ask me about it after putting myself on the spot beforehand?In post 358, Accountant wrote:Why not? I think you're the sort of person who likes to prepare his stuff carefully as scum, unless it's part of a pre-prepared push(which is why you've been playing conservative then suddenly the "reaction test" and the attack on me). So you'd definitely be able to smoothly read your scripted case against me, but when someone pushes you on something you're not expecting(the reaction test) you panic and make shit up.
If you're genuinely town and think that's what's happening take a look at any game where I was scum.
I might be mistaken here, but I believe the "reaction test" was simply copper stating "GL's catch-up post is a scum claim" and "GL and DDD are the two scum". After you and GL reacted to it, it essentially ceased to be a reaction test and he could admit to it. Once a reaction test is over, shouldn't the person admit to it? Also, what motivation would scum-copper have to randomly state those things in thread?In post 362, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote: B) The fact that I now "know" it's a reaction test make my further reactions relatively worthless since I know I'm being tested though. Which makes it kind of curious how quick you were to publicly claim your nonsense as a reaction test because as soon as you claim that the test is effectively over.
Why don't you think it was a reaction test?In post 368, Accountant wrote:Because he was trying to look like cocky town.This post illustrates why I think copper is town - the logic does not make sense; why would scum-copper randomly call out first GL, and then both GL and DDD as scum just like that? He would know it would draw attention to him. The fact that it seems out-of-character for copper makes me think that it was a reaction test, and he is town.
Did he say that? He probably confused GL with someone else or thought GL was voting for you, as I'm not sure why he'd say this as scum. Coming from someone as experienced as him, it's unlikely he'd make up a BS reason like this as scum - it's something I'd expect from a newbie. So he was probably mistaken.In post 371, copper223 wrote:@Dragon
I don't think Accountant is town.
If you think he is, what do you make of the part where he says he sheeps his strongest townread GuiltyLion (who isn't voting for me) in reply to why he decided to join the wagon?
That's not the answer I was looking for. I'm kinda concerned that your play appears to have completely shifted from well-thought out cases and analysis to one-sentence answers and an absolute lack of explanation. Why is it not what a reaction test looks like? If you want to get me to vote copper, you're gonna need to bring some evidence in to convince me he's scum.In post 372, Accountant wrote:Because that's not what a reaction test looks like.In post 369, Dragonfire wrote:Why don't you think it was a reaction test?In post 368, Accountant wrote:Because he was trying to look like cocky town.This post illustrates why I think copper is town - the logic does not make sense; why would scum-copper randomly call out first GL, and then both GL and DDD as scum just like that? He would know it would draw attention to him. The fact that it seems out-of-character for copper makes me think that it was a reaction test, and he is town.
Because I think he's town. Isn't that obvious?In post 379, Accountant wrote:Dragon, why aren't you voting copper?
I didn't "get" your post. I would have been okay with it if you'd just pulled out some things you found interesting/funny etc, replied to them and then posted your reads on the various players. Instead you looked as if you were trying to use these posts as evidence to show why you had certain reads on certain players (case in point: drealmerz; in what way does his joke make you townread him? At first I thought you were joking yourself, but it seems as if you were being serious).In post 388, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:In post 377, copper223 wrote:In post 375, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote: See here's the fundamental issue, everyone else "got" my post other than you. It makes me really skeptical that it was so confusing for you to understand. And instead of asking questions, like I'd expect someone who was interested in the truth to do if they didn't understand something, you went on the attack.
Even if he was scum faking reads, if he'd previously argued with GL about the merits of the Jae wagon, then he'd already know GL suspected Jae, making it a moot point. I really don't think it is alignment indicative, just a simple mistake.In post 397, copper223 wrote:I'm sure that he was, but would he be more likely to make that mistake as scum inventing his GL read or as town when he claims GL is his strongest town-read and he had previously argued with him about the merits of the Jae wagon (the player GL was actually voting for)?In post 396, Dragonfire wrote:Did he say that? He probably confused GL with someone else or thought GL was voting for you, as I'm not sure why he'd say this as scum. Coming from someone as experienced as him, it's unlikely he'd make up a BS reason like this as scum - it's something I'd expect from a newbie. So he was probably mistaken.
I think you have tunnel vision. I've seen numerous posts from copper which look a) towny, b) helpful and c) attempting to figure out who is scum. Since I joined later than you guys, I've had somewhat of a detached perspective and been able to observe happenings from an unbiased viewpoint. I don't see why scum-copper would randomly accuse people out of nowhere, so I believe him when he claims he was reaction testing. Your first point implies that he was lying about the reaction test. I guess he might be more helpful when he's at L-1, but I'd personally rather wait for Marian (and Stapler and GL, wherever they are) to catch up and present their viewpoints. Fresh minds might be just what this situation needs.In post 398, Accountant wrote:The reason for this is because I haveI'm kinda concerned that your play appears to have completely shifted from well-thought out cases and analysis to one-sentence answers and an absolute lack of explanation. Why is it not what a reaction test looks like? If you want to get me to vote copper, you're gonna need to bring some evidence in to convince me he's scum.nobody to explain to. DDD and GM are on the same page as me, GL seems to understand why I want to kill copper, copper isn't going to be persuaded into voting himself - why should I put effort into convincing some hypothetical nobody?
But if you want reasons why you should vote copper:
- he is not trying to figure out who is scum. he's just making up stuff. that's why he keeps throwing frivolous accusations that get rebutted time and time again to the exhaustion of everyone involved.
- because he's not interested in participating in the game, pushing wagons or anything like that unless it's convenient to him, makes him look good or to rebut a wagon that's threatening him.
- because no matter copper's alignment, he's going to be 10x more helpful when he's at L-1 rather than wallfighting to cover up his lack of usefulness.
Where did he OMGUS me? I never voted him, and he never voted me. In fact, I never actually said he was suspicious, just that his predecessor's posts gave me bad gut feelings.In post 402, copper223 wrote: His reaction was to OMGUS me, I thought that was scum indicative together with the rest of his posting being haphazard at best, but he later OMGUSes dragon as well and has shown a strong amount of confbias in the way that he phrases his posts so now I'm trying to decide if I'm up again a VI or just scum brazenly pushing.
My point remains the same. As both scum and town, he made the mistake of thinking that GL suspected you. I don't see a particularly scummy side to it, actually, since a player as experienced as him wouldn't just make something up on the spot - he'd read the thread carefully before making his posts, to avoid slipping up and being called out. Which is why I think such a mistake is NAI, and his admission that he was "sheeping" is something that a townie, not a scum, would do. Scum would never openly admit to sheeping - oh wait, now I'm just going down WIFOM lane. Anyway, I don't think that post makes him scum.In post 404, copper223 wrote:Sure but I did not question him on who GL suspected (which I am pretty sure he would know as both scum and town if asked), I asked him why he joined my wagon, and bear in mind that's the second vote in a row that he makes there and the first time nobody questioned him on it so scum there is not expecting any push-back, to which he replied he was sheeping his strongest town-read, so I then asked him who that was (to which he replied GL) and only then did the fact that GL was voting Jae come up.In post 401, Dragonfire wrote:Even if he was scum faking reads, if he'd previously argued with GL about the merits of the Jae wagon, then he'd already know GL suspected Jae, making it a moot point. I really don't think it is alignment indicative, just a simple mistake.
Sorry, but you appear to have been replacedIn post 408, drealmerz7 wrote:Hey all, I've been super super super busy all week. Usually when I'm busy I can at least read a bit and post a bit, but, just haven't been able to. I'm sorry! I should have something for you all in the next day or 2.
In my first game, only two people got replaced, for failing to pick up Role PMs. In my second one, two people who hadn't posted much replaced out, but nobody else. I guess different games have different activity levels.In post 414, Accountant wrote:Newbie games tend to have a ton of replacements.
Oh right, thanks for clarifying. Yes, it does look suspicious, but as I said before with regards to Accountant, would someone as experienced as DDD base his reads on people who suspected his predecessor, if he was scum? Again, this is getting WIFOM-y so I'd better stop.In post 416, copper223 wrote:You and I seem to be the only ones to have brought his predecessor's actions into question as possibly suspicious and he is scum-reading both of us, it makes it more likely that's an important part of what he is basing his reads off of.In post 413, Dragonfire wrote:Where did he OMGUS me? I never voted him, and he never voted me. In fact, I never actually said he was suspicious, just that his predecessor's posts gave me bad gut feelings.
Noted for the rest, I'd also like a few sets of new eyes to take a look at the thread, and yeah some newbies are pretty bad as far as replacements goes but this is one of the worst in recent memory.
Agreed. This post makes you look more town-y in my estimation, fyi.In post 433, GuiltyLion wrote:I don't think I'm okay with a copper lynch today anymore, he looks pretty town in the sustained back and forth of the past several pages, especially the post that I quoted. I think there's an implicit assumption somewhere (being pushed mainly by GM but the idea has also been sheeped by Accountant and DDD) that a "reaction test" has to have some kind of intentional expectation of how scum/town will react when it's given, but I think copper is saying his version of a "reaction test" is just to say shit and see what happens, which is plausible as town behavior. I don't think there's much in the case against him aside from the "reaction test" point and I don't think the "reaction test" point is a strong one.
Since I know I'm town, and it's very unlikely that scum would bus their buddy on D1, then if copper is scum I would guess that his buddy is either Marian, Stapler slot or you, from process of elimination. But I don't think he's scum anyway, so it doesn't matter.We have a bunch of people on the sidelines (JaeReed, Marian, Stapler slot) and I'm starting to get progressively worse feelings about Accountant. If copper is scum his buddy is either a) Dragonfire, b) leaving him to die, or c) pushing a D1 bus.
I'm really not sure. His play recently has quite literally been antithetical to his play before copper's reaction test. I still think he's more likely to be town than scum, but my townread on him has weakened quite considerably. I believe I discussed this a few pages ago, actually.In post 434, GuiltyLion wrote:@Dragonfire, what is your current read on Accountant and why? I know you've said previously you're townreading him but I want an update as to whether that has changed
I don't really have a strong read on her either way. Some of the things she's said seem towny, others more questionable. So yeah, my read on her is kinda neutral.In post 437, copper223 wrote:Why are you long-term planning your votes?In post 332, goodmorning wrote:After rereading the game I'm pretty convinced both Scum are in {copper, Jae, Dragon} with DDD as the very unlikely side candidate.
I also would probably not vote Jaetodaythough.
@Dragon
What do you think of GM?
Well, I guess I'm stupid. I meant to ask you who your strongestIn post 439, GuiltyLion wrote:What do you think?In post 436, Dragonfire wrote:Who is your strongest scumread right now, GL, and why?
As I just said to GL, I know perfectly well who his strongest scumread is; I meant to say "townread" instead. What do you mean by "king-making"? Is it something that scum or town do more often?In post 456, copper223 wrote:You should not be allowed to play as an IC, we don't want new players to take up your bad habits.
I think Accountant is (atrocious) town, which means Dragon being so calm in the way he evaluated our back and forth but not demonstrating a strong awareness of the thread in general (like the way he asked GL who his top scumread was) may be king-making there, which in turn makes scum_GM a much more likely proposition.
Oh right. I've heard it before, but in the scenario of a neutral player (eg. survivor) deciding whether scum or town win the game. Either way, if I was kingmaking wouldn't I already have supported one of you over the other? Surely a hypothetical scum-me, having just replaced into the game, would just fabricate a scumread on the person who was most widely suspected (that is, you) and argue for your lynch?In post 459, copper223 wrote:It's when a scum player chooses between two townies which one to support.In post 457, Dragonfire wrote:As I just said to GL, I know perfectly well who his strongest scumread is; I meant to say "townread" instead. What do you mean by "king-making"? Is it something that scum or town do more often?
For the same reason why he asked me what my read on Accountant was - to get information and generate discussion. I might agree with or disagree with his strongest townread; if it was on a player who I currently read as null/no real read then I might learn something or see their posts in a new light. Or I might think GL was scum for it. Besides, we had to talk about something other than you and Accountant going at each other again and again for ages.In post 461, copper223 wrote:@Dragon
Why did you want to know about GL's strongest town-read at the end of 436?
I guess, although if you read my scum-game on here you'll know that pushing wagons is what I do as scum, but then again it's all WiFOM... Who would you say my teammate is if I am scum?In post 463, copper223 wrote:Not necessarily, some scum players would rather fence sit on it and wait for the two townies to duke it out, then if the rest of the flock moves to support one of the two you blend in and follow, it depends how comfortable you would be taking heat for being one of the players pushing wagons.In post 462, Dragonfire wrote:Oh right. I've heard it before, but in the scenario of a neutral player (eg. survivor) deciding whether scum or town win the game. Either way, if I was kingmaking wouldn't I already have supported one of you over the other? Surely a hypothetical scum-me, having just replaced into the game, would just fabricate a scumread on the person who was most widely suspected (that is, you) and argue for your lynch?
There are other variables as well that might influence you as scum, like what your teammate would already be doing.
To be absolutely honest, I didn't really read his case on Jae that closely. I'll go back and read it now. I have Jae as null and GL as slight town right now fyi.To test how likely it is that you really wanted to say "town-read" there. What do you think of GL's case on Jae?Why are you asking, anyway?
Didn't she say that she would like to lynch me or you today? Another odd point about GM is that she hasn't given me a concrete reason for scumreading me, so I can't defend myself or argue for why I'm town.In post 466, copper223 wrote:Nah I am not GM, the sample pool is really small if it's just one game but I'll check it out and if your play as scum is radically different I'll consider it as a somewhat valid point, although the fact you know about it makes you possibly able to adapt so as you mentioned there is a WIFOM element involved.In post 465, Dragonfire wrote:I guess, although if you read my scum-game on here you'll know that pushing wagons is what I do as scum, but then again it's all WiFOM... Who would you say my teammate is if I am scum?
I would strongly suspect GM if you flip scum, she coached Asty a lot at the start of the game, he said he felt like he was disappointing his master at one point and that he is a terrible liar, so if he was scum he probably left tells around.
GM also left you out of the players she might or might not vote today while putting you in her scum-reads and that may be a slip on her part. Also the fact she spent some time telling DDD that the amished tell was debunked while still scum-reading you is somewhat curious.
He hadn't really talked about his townreads yet, and I thought I'd rather ask him some questions that hadn't already been asked instead of just going over what had already been said and is known to all of us.Re Jae: Fair enough, that's also an interesting discussion.
I was more interest in why you thought discussing his strongest town-read was more valuable to you than asking him about his case on his scum-read Jae, if you hadn't formed an opinion on it, wouldn't that be an obvious place to start a discussion?
I like some of the points GL made on Jae. Do you want me to give specifics?In post 468, Accountant wrote:Tell me more.
For the record, I've now read the case carefully and it has some merit.
Okay, here goes:In post 471, Accountant wrote:Yes. GL made quite a few - I'm interested in what caught your eye.
Obviously I disagree with this part of Jae's argument, since I know I'm town, but I wouldn't put it past GM to be subtly dropping hints as scum so that if she got lynched and flipped scum, I'd be next. I think that GL makes the decent point that a newbie scum would not just come into the game and refer to their buddy in their very first post. Also, Jae's lack of accusations against my slot is telling, especially when he later says that a GM/me team is not probable, but I'm probably scum nevertheless. He doesn't provide any evidence to support his accusations.In post 192, GuiltyLion wrote: also I don't like his apparent belief in a GM/Asty team as it requires two massive assumptions that a) Asty must be scum for his RVS post and b) GM must be his partner intentionally not voting or drawing attention to him. And then while he was pushing it JaeReed didn't go after Asty himself at all, and he still hasn't.
In post 199, GuiltyLion wrote: It's scummy because Jae's argument is to take an imagined action that town!gmwouldhave taken, then push that she's scum on that basis of not doing that. Instead of explaining why her actions come from a place of scum motivation, he's saying she didn't meet some assumed expectation of town motivation, which is a much easier case for scum to make. It's logic that starts with a conclusion and works downward, instead of looking at the evidence and building upward.
Here he again raises some good points: I could definitely see the case being fabricated.In post 216, GuiltyLion wrote: That's my whole point - there's a key difference between "if you were town, you'd do [x], you didn't do [x]" and "you did [y], scum often does [y]". The latter is what town cases usually look like. The former is the kind of case you come up with when you're making shit up. Reread how Jae phrases this:It's also different in terms of what they're talking about, GM's point had to do with the idea of a "notable entrance" whereas Jae's point had to do with "ignoring a line of questioning" and "not voting". One might say all unremarkable entrances are scummy, but no one would suggest that all players who didn't vote Asty are scummy.In post 120, JaeReed wrote:My vote on you was 100% serious in my first post, based off you ignoring a line of questioning that you should have picked up on, pointing out stuff from the newbies which you'd think would have earned a pressure vote then not voting them
3. Like I just explained to Accountant, it's not the assumption itself that's scummy, it's that his entire scumread is propped up by it. Jae's case looks invented.
Not once did I say "eh Asty is probably scum still". I laid out that Asty wasn't scum with GM because when I reread and thought of his motivation for his post being the way it was, all I got was "hi scum buddy!" and that would be something that newb!scum would be anxious to avoid doing. I think someone else ended up pointing that out, too. My issue was that GM didn't call out the post, which she explained that it's not something she thinks is anything more than a newbtell. Asty made sense as a partner to me when I was looking at GM!scum possibilities. I hadn't factored in his motivation at the time, only hers. When I reread was when I thought about his motivation as either alignment.In post 483, JaeReed wrote:Did I say that? No? Right. Fuck off then, mate. I entertained the idea of scum and town motivations for both GM and Asty later on when I was rereading the first page after my push on GM fell flat. My scumread on Asty came through association with GM, and my scumread on GM came from her not getting the game rolling as I thought she should + what I viewed as ignoring something she could have pushed on in order to get the game rolling. She explained herself and I ended up with a hypothesis (my ICs are always scum if I'm in the game from D1) with no backing and had to reread to see what else I could find to push on.
Who is misrepping/cherrypicking: me or GL?I did explain why her actions came from a scum motivation at the time. It was "covering for a buddy". It was a shitty read because I didn't factor in Asty's side of the motivations but you can't fucking say I didn't believe in it at the time. I did fucking explain it. Blatant.Misrep.Blatant.Cherrypicking. I found something that pinged me earlygame and voted for it, argued my points, was refuted, then backed off to take the time to reread. I did not start from a fucking conclusion. It's true that I have more motivation to scour the IC's posts considering that I still haven't had a town IC from D1, and so I might have ended up pushing on her harder than I would have pushed on someone else for that shit, but that is not starting from a conclusion. That is having a bias.
I'm really not sure how I "took the bait"; I reread GL's case and there were some good points in it. I then posted my response to the case, hoping Jae would react, and he did react in a way I liked. I didn't actually vote Jae, neither did I say I thought he was scum. Like I said before, wouldn't scum-me have pushed you for an easy lynch?In post 486, copper223 wrote:Good.In post 484, JaeReed wrote:I wasn't inventing a goddamn read. I was exaggerating it to put pressure on. That's what an early push generally is.
I am telling you now there is very little chance that GL is scum.
I joined your wagon for 2 reasons, number 1: come here and do shit because I am not so sure you are town anymore, number 2: one of the posts you said was fine from GL from my perspective makes him by far the likeliest town in this game so I wanted an all town wagon on you to see who was going to move and lo and behold Dragon, the player that seemed to know I was town when the VI squad mixed with scum was pushing me, took the bait.
This means you were likely right the first time and Asty did greet his buddy at the start of the game, because he is a terrible liar.
VOTE: Dragon
I'm pretty sure you did say that Asty was probably scum on his own, after you dropped the GM/Asty case. If you didn't, then sorry, it was a misrep.In post 494, Dragonfire wrote:In post 483, JaeReed wrote:Did I say that? No? Right. Fuck off then, mate. I entertained the idea of scum and town motivations for both GM and Asty later on when I was rereading the first page after my push on GM fell flat. My scumread on Asty came through association with GM, and my scumread on GM came from her not getting the game rolling as I thought she should + what I viewed as ignoring something she could have pushed on in order to get the game rolling. She explained herself and I ended up with a hypothesis (my ICs are always scum if I'm in the game from D1) with no backing and had to reread to see what else I could find to push on.
Not once did I say "eh Asty is probably scum still". I laid out that Asty wasn't scum with GM because when I reread and thought of his motivation for his post being the way it was, all I got was "hi scum buddy!" and that would be something that newb!scum would be anxious to avoid doing. I think someone else ended up pointing that out, too. My issue was that GM didn't call out the post, which she explained that it's not something she thinks is anything more than a newbtell. Asty made sense as a partner to me when I was looking at GM!scum possibilities. I hadn't factored in his motivation at the time, only hers. When I reread was when I thought about his motivation as either alignment.
That was because I was new to Mafiascum and didn't want to get demolished by an experienced player. Why would I replace in to this game as scum and not scumread anyone? What are the motivations for that? If you've read my last game, you'll have seen that I had multiple scumreads as scum.In post 497, copper223 wrote: Voting is just expressing an intent, you did basically the same thing when you positioned yourself to be able to vote Jae because GL's case seemed valid to you as far as reading your motives (if you are scum) goes.
The fact you just prepared it without actually jumping and waited for his response is actually more fitting for the scum D1 profile I am building on you; gather enough town-cred by giving the appearance of propriety in a few obvious (to you) instances where town is being dumb and then push a wagon you think you could get behind as town as well.
I already explained why I don't think that's what you'd do as scum, add to that that when I read your scum game you made sure to stay on the SE/IC's good side early on.
I agree, I think GL is more likely to be town.I think it's not such a bad case to make at the start of D1 if you haven't played with Jae (that's why I was originally skeptical about GL, decent scum often makes cases on townies that seem solid but if you know those are more likely foibles of that particular player and they also should know it's possible they are intentionally throwing scum at them) but contrary to your case where you just replaced in and would want to establish your credentials first, I see very little reason for scum GL to turn around and start questioning Accountant over me while still taking time to figure out who I am scum with in case he is wrong.
To be honest I don't remember that, but I'll believe you if you say that's what happened.You also know that greeting is something scum may do because your buddy yuriko greeted you in your scum-game as well, so why is this a problem for you?
I'm terrible at flying under the radar and not ruffling feathers. Whatever my alignment, I guarantee you half the town ends up scumreading me at one point.In post 506, copper223 wrote:Not at the very start of the game, but it's true that after a while you gave a list of reads with some scum-leans.In post 505, Dragonfire wrote:That was because I was new to Mafiascum and didn't want to get demolished by an experienced player. Why would I replace in to this game as scum and not scumread anyone? What are the motivations for that? If you've read my last game, you'll have seen that I had multiple scumreads as scum.
The motivation is wanting everyone to like you and establish yourself as town, once that's done you can proceed to find the right place to vote.
It's not that unusual for scum to do for a while, if you don't really hard push anyone you may fly under the radar and not ruffle any feathers.
But there you're assuming that he was lying about it being a reaction test. If he's lying then, hypocritical or not, it makes him scum, as a townie wouldn't lie about something like that. So there's no point in calling him hypocritical in this case.In post 509, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Why is this a problem? You pretended to have an absolute close-minded position on GL+DDD=scum. I don't think you have a leg to stand on if you take a hardline stance, then back off it with "reaction test", and then get at someone else for taking a hardline stance.In post 429, copper223 wrote:I believe that's how you intended it, it still shows you are (pretending to be) very or as you would put it absolutely close-minded about the back and forth.In post 426, Accountant wrote:"absolutely" is not used to literally mean "absolute"ly. It can be used as an expression meaning "very". check with other players if you don't believe me
I think the purpose of a reaction test is to do something (whether it is post, claim or vote) with the sole purpose of seeing how people react and analysing the reactions. If it's done seriously, then it's not a reaction test. The intentions have to be to get reactions and only that.By the standard you're arguing here everything is a reaction test, I voted them as a reaction test, I made that case as a reaction test, I made that argument as a reaction test, I ignored that person as a reaction test. But the problem is if everything is a reaction test then nothing is, you've robbed the words of any meaning.
Because if she's town, she doesn't want to mislynch a townie, so she would want to give them a chance to defend themselves and make a case for why they're town. A townie who refuses to discuss their scumreads or even consider that they're town is either deathtunneling or a bad player.Why does she have an obligation to help someone she's scum reading by providing them reasons to be argued and refuted?
For the record, why did what I posted make you change your mind? Looking at the post, nothing really jumps out at me.In post 514, goodmorning wrote:I swear, every time I decide to vote Dragon, he posts something like this and I change my mind.In post 462, Dragonfire wrote:Besides, we had to talk about something other than you and Accountant going at each other again and again for ages.
Why are you asking, anyway?
I think I might know what you're implying, but I'm not going to say.If you think I'm implying what I think you think I'm implying, you're not wrong. But I do it as all alignments, because it's really beneficial.
I agree, we need to let MM and Stapler's replacement actually read the thread and come to their own conclusions. Tons of convoluted arguing is only going to hinder that.I think everyone with over 100 posts should TONE IT THE FUCK DOWN. We haven't heard anything from MM yet and prolonging the thread isn't going to make that happen any sooner.
I'm not sure what you mean. In my opinion, people should share their thought processes and reasons for things they do in the interest of transparency and future development, to quote you. I guess suppressing one scumread for the sake of focusing on a top scumread is a viable tactic, but it deprives the town of information. How am I arguing over processes? I'm not sure I understand that, could you please clarify?In post 527, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:First, the two previous sections I omitted weren't addressed to you and at least one of your points destroyed the important context of the discussion to argue for the sake of arguing. Not interested.In post 522, Dragonfire wrote:Because if she's town, she doesn't want to mislynch a townie, so she would want to give them a chance to defend themselves and make a case for why they're town. A townie who refuses to discuss their scumreads or even consider that they're town is either deathtunneling or a bad player.Why does she have an obligation to help someone she's scum reading by providing them reasons to be argued and refuted?
Second, you and copper seem to make the same mistake, that every post in the game should be weighted exactly the same and that everything you do needs to be full bore on target. But that's not how mafia works and it's frustrating to me that you guys don't get that or are pretending not to get it. In this case, GM appears to prefer a copper lynch to your lynch; in the interest of transparency and future development she notes that she thinks you're scum but if she provided reasons then you'd start arguing about them and maybe someone else would chime in on the topic and attention would be drawn away from where she wants it, copper. Now that's just speculation but it would be my logic in her shoes. Mafia isn't just a game of being right and it's not just a game of persuasion, it's a game of momentum, and motivation, and social dynamics. And when you and copper argue over process it's very hard for me to tell whether you're just misguided or if you're trying to drown the town in these things that don't matter.
That claim wasn't necessary.... it's still Day OneIn post 529, ironstove wrote:Lmfao four days left.
I have not read anything yet but I'll claim since it looks like lylo
I'm VT n I'll go back to read when I have a chance but idk how much time will be left in the game once I've caught up
But welcome! I hope you don't get too lost or confused by all the arguing here. Can you explain this please? I understand that you're trying hard to catch up, but we'd like to hear the thought process behind the vote.
What does that mean, can you clarify please?In post 535, JaeReed wrote:QFTIn post 522, Dragonfire wrote:Because if she's town, she doesn't want to mislynch a townie, so she would want to give them a chance to defend themselves and make a case for why they're town. A townie who refuses to discuss their scumreads or even consider that they're town is either deathtunneling or a bad player.Why does she have an obligation to help someone she's scum reading by providing them reasons to be argued and refuted?
Oh, okay. ThanksIn post 540, Accountant wrote:quoted for truth. it means "i agree".
Can I ask you, what made you vote copper and then switch? If you think Accountant is confirmed scum, why vote copper in the first place.
In post 559, copper223 wrote:I would have pressure voted as well if I thought it would have made a difference, but since iron's posting all over the site is the same I doubt he is going to magically start playing differently here just because we ask him to do so, one way or another.
Just when I thought we'd finally get a new perspective on this....Yeah, there's no point in lynching him, it won't tell us anything at all (if he flips town), as the slot's been inactive for most of the game.The stapler slot looked town because of the paranoid approach to the game he showed and what iron is doing is troll, but non particularly scummy, so although removing a potential pain in the ass to work with is tempting I am not going to policy in a newbie.
Exactly. You can't get someone lynched all by yourself, ironstove. You need to make a case on him to try and convince us.@iron
If you want your scum-reads to be taken seriously you'll have to explain to us dummies what makes accountant scum here.
Can you then tell me why Accountant and copper's argument was not TvT? Give me reasons.In post 563, ironstove wrote:He's really annoying, so I want him out, but... I'd be going against my town duties by policy lynching one of my own, so instead I'll suck it up and eliminate the scum that has been instigating instead... You can consider the vote a symbolic slap to his face followed by a 'wake up man!'In post 560, Dragonfire wrote: Can I ask you, what made you vote copper and then switch? If you think Accountant is confirmed scum, why vote copper in the first place.
Oh, okay. I would generally agree with that, but I don't have as strong a read on goodmorning.In post 567, GuiltyLion wrote:I don't like talking about my "strongest" townreads, I know that a lot of players think readslists are useful but IMO the information they give scum is more valuable than the information they give town.In post 457, Dragonfire wrote:Well, I guess I'm stupid. I meant to ask you who your strongest townread was, but for some reason I wrote "scumread" instead. Who is your strongest townread anyway?
I will not vote goodmorning, drealmer/Marian slot, or copper today. Those three are people I am the most confident in being town.
The issue is that in this game I literally haven't been able to get scumreads on anyone. Usually tons of things jump out to me as scummy but for some reason I'm finding it hard to read people. Gun to my head, I'd probably vote DDD, since I definitely find him the scummiest right now, but my reasons for doing so have really already been brought up by others. For the sake of a lynch, flip and information I'd be prepared to vote Jae, GM, or ironstove as well. I can't see myself voting you, GL, the drealmerz slot or Accountant today.In post 570, copper223 wrote:@Dragon
Who is scum?
I keep on reading sensible and "proper" posts from you, many of which I happen to agree on, that however always end in younotscum-reading someone.
Who do you mean by "the three stoogies?"In post 573, copper223 wrote: If most of the new players don't mention it or agree with him it's more likely that's a genuine perspective he's had all game, if instead that's not the case (which iron signaled before when he said he would lynch him) he is more likely to be scum among the three stoogies.
No, I said my town-read on him had weakened, not gone completely. It hasn't changed since to be honest, but it's still a townread.In post 590, copper223 wrote:The three stooges are an old comedy act, here I am using it to refer to Accountant, DDD and GM.
What did Accountant recently do to go up in your town-estimation of him? You were doubting that town-read as of 436 while I was changing my mind because of how genuine his "tunnel escalation" looked.
I kinda disagree with it; I can definitely see town-Accountant putting a vote on Iron because he was being a troll, to pressure him. It's not as if he completely dropped his case on you as soon as he voted someone else, and as he said he could just vote you again whenever he wanted to. In fact, I don't really think the vote was very alignment indicative.In post 593, copper223 wrote:What do you think about GL's point regarding Accountant's vote on Iron?In post 592, Dragonfire wrote:No, I said my town-read on him had weakened, not gone completely. It hasn't changed since to be honest, but it's still a townread.
Exactly. What I particularly didn't like was how he tried to push that you were opportunistic scum because only you found his post weird. I can't see why anyone wouldn't find it weird anyway; maybe the reason why only those who have replaced in since found it weird was because we read the thread objectively, whereas others were so engrossed in their arguing that they didn't really notice anything out of the ordinary.In post 597, copper223 wrote:One of your points was that you have a hard time believing only I misread that post while everyone else got it (so I'm scum looking for an excuse to push you), at the time nobody else commented on it (which is not the same thing) and the less people "get it" the more it's objectively likely that your post could and was misinterpreted by town as well so the less valid does that point of view become and the more it looks like an excuse you made up to shift the argument.In post 595, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:How does a new player disagreeing with me make my perspective less genuine? It might make me wrong, but it wouldn't mean I didn't sincerely believe my argument when I made it.
Can you explain why that post in particular is scummy? It looks quite NAI to me.
I think it's about time I voted as well. And I definitely know who I'll be voting for. I didn't like oncilla's posting and nor do I like what I've seen from DDD so far.In post 610, copper223 wrote:Agreed, they should definitely take a stance.In post 607, Accountant wrote:Why are the not votings not voting
It wasn't weird because it was light and brief. It was weird because you legitimately justified your reads based on it (for example, in the post you say you townread drealmerz based on his joke post. I took your claimed "townread" on him to be a joke, like his original post. But then you later say that you do townread him for that reason. How was his joke at all alignment indicative?) This and a few other examples of poorly justified reads. Heck, if you'd said it wasn't serious and justified your reads elsewhere, I wouldn't be voting you now. But you not only stuck to that, but you attacked copper and called him scum when he pointed out the weirdness of your post. The nature of the attack was in itself scummy, and besides I have to take into account your predecessor's actions too, which I found rather off.In post 616, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Fuck, I hate to do this but GM, I know we didn't play together much but could you please tell these space cadets that my first post isn't weird. What horrifying reality have I entered where levity and brevity are sins.In post 614, Dragonfire wrote:Exactly. What I particularly didn't like was how he tried to push that you were opportunistic scum because only you found his post weird. I can't see why anyone wouldn't find it weird anyway; maybe the reason why only those who have replaced in since found it weird was because we read the thread objectively, whereas others were so engrossed in their arguing that they didn't really notice anything out of the ordinary.
Yeah, umm... you're already voting him, so you don't need to do it again.In post 617, ironstove wrote:Scum. Again.In post 616, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Fuck, I hate to do this but GM, I know we didn't play together much but could you please tell these space cadets that my first post isn't weird. What horrifying reality have I entered where levity and brevity are sins.In post 614, Dragonfire wrote:Exactly. What I particularly didn't like was how he tried to push that you were opportunistic scum because only you found his post weird. I can't see why anyone wouldn't find it weird anyway; maybe the reason why only those who have replaced in since found it weird was because we read the thread objectively, whereas others were so engrossed in their arguing that they didn't really notice anything out of the ordinary.
VOTE: DDD
Tell us why we shouldn't vote him then.In post 619, Accountant wrote:You know this DDD wagon we have going
It's terrible, please don't do it
He's at L-2 right now. I wouldn't call that a "very small" wagon.In post 623, ironstove wrote:With 2 people on-board, this is a very small wagon.In post 619, Accountant wrote:You know this DDD wagon we have going
It's terrible, please don't do it
Read DDD's first "catch-up" post and then his replies to copper after that. He basically quoted a lot of posts and then gave seemingly random reads at the conclusion of his post (for instance he said he townread drealmerz solely based off drealmerz's joke "Banana Split" post). I could see it being a joke, but he maintains that he was being serious. See copper's below post:In post 626, goodmorning wrote:I mean, tbf, I scumread you back when I was a Newb.In post 616, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Fuck, I hate to do this but GM, I know we didn't play together much but could you please tell these space cadets that my first post isn't weird. What horrifying reality have I entered where levity and brevity are sins.
It's not framed weirdly, if that's the issue.
I was kind of ignoring that whole thing because I thought it was silly, can someone give me a quick summary?
In post 630, copper223 wrote:No Jae, the first post that DDD makes and then his reply when I accuse him of selecting posts that don't match the reads that he gives at the end.
I am having the same thoughts about Accountant here.
Surely it could just be that he made his reads independent of the "joke" quotes he made, and then when questioned about his fabricated reads, he panicked and said he had explained it all in that post, and then dug himself into a hole doing so. Although I wouldn't expect an experienced player to do this, it is definitely possible.In post 633, Accountant wrote:eli5 why is ddd scum? If it's weird reads or bad reads, people have explained why his reads are weird/scummy but NOT why that weirdness or wrongnessstems from a scum perspective.
People claim that him reading Drealmerz as town because of the banana post is crazy. But I don't see the scum motivation in it. I'm picturing DDD sitting at his desktop with a malevolent grin and a goatee with lightning flashing above him. And he goes, "mwahaha! i have completely bamboozled these town fools. And now, I will townread drealmerz for his banana post, and then ______, and then scum will reign supreme!"
And I think that _____ is a huge-ass gap and I'm not convinced DDD is scum unless someone can fill that blank in for me.
"Fat enough"? So far you've only expressed suspicion of copper, iron and me (I think?). That's hardly enough to guarantee both mafia are in there IMO. Are you that certain of your scumreading ability that you're willing to hard-defend an unknown based on PoE? This seems unlikely to me.In post 636, Accountant wrote:I just don't buy that DDD decided to stoke shit up by doing the banana thing. He could have townread drealmerz for any other number of reasonds, even piggybacking off my post explaining why I stopped sring drealmerz. Mafia who wants to write a plausible post doesn't go off about how banana split analysis makes someone town. Mafia who are not invested in the game doesn't make a big post detailing their reactions to stuff and making cases.
He's town worth wking because there can only be two mafia and the list of people scummier than him is fat enough I'm pretty sure both mafia are in there.
Let's turn this around; if he was town, what motivation would he have for townreading people based on jokes, and then attacking people when they said it was rather weird? To me that reads like scum trying to cover up for their mistake.In post 640, Accountant wrote:It's not like DDD is obliged to immediately respond when someone calls him out. If he was scum he could have mulled and made up something truly plausible and take his own sweet time.
So you only have two townreads, GL and Jae, and you scumread everybody else??In post 644, Accountant wrote:People who are scummier than DDD:In post 641, Dragonfire wrote:"Fat enough"? So far you've only expressed suspicion of copper, iron and me (I think?). That's hardly enough to guarantee both mafia are in there IMO. Are you that certain of your scumreading ability that you're willing to hard-defend an unknown based on PoE? This seems unlikely to me.In post 636, Accountant wrote:I just don't buy that DDD decided to stoke shit up by doing the banana thing. He could have townread drealmerz for any other number of reasonds, even piggybacking off my post explaining why I stopped sring drealmerz. Mafia who wants to write a plausible post doesn't go off about how banana split analysis makes someone town. Mafia who are not invested in the game doesn't make a big post detailing their reactions to stuff and making cases.
He's town worth wking because there can only be two mafia and the list of people scummier than him is fat enough I'm pretty sure both mafia are in there.
GM, dragon, copper, iron, drealmerz(close but slightly scummier)
It's absolutely batshit insane to lynch DDD while all five of these people still breathe oxygen
What do you mean by "hedging"? Are you talking about when I discussed reasons for why he could be scum and reasons for why he might be town in the same post? And I've already given reads on people, do I need to keep giving them again and again?In post 645, JaeReed wrote:Accountant, run me through with handy post links why DDD is town? I'll get back to this in the morning when I'm not so drunk. I think you should remove drealmer and iron from your list. I can understand dragon bc it seems like a lot of hedging (639 for an example, copper brought up an issue as well wrt to lots of analysis but then no read following). Why is GM scummier? Did I miss something or do you disbelieve her responses to me nullifying shit?
I've seen one post from iron that has any substance at all in it, and that was his reply to your question about DDD. Even that barely had any substance. So why are you claiming he does? Quote any of his posts which you think have substance.In post 655, copper223 wrote:You are playing in the wrong forum if that's the case, this game is for them.
Iron is giving reads, posting in an entertaining fashion I am perfectly fine with if there is substance.
It wasn't the first time I brought it up; I was talking about it around the time when you were suggesting that copper was scum because only he thought your post was weird.In post 656, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Here's the issue, why are you just asking this question of me now? Both you and copper don't bother talking with me, don't bother asking specific questions; you label my post weird and/or scummy and that get further baffled when I attack that. If you were actually interested in the answer to this question, this wouldn't be the first time you brought it up.In post 618, Dragonfire wrote:(for example, in the post you say you townread drealmerz based on his joke post. I took your claimed "townread" on him to be a joke, like his original post. But then you later say that you do townread him for that reason. How was his joke at all alignment indicative?)
Explain why you found his joke towny (or AI at all for that matter) because nobody else is seeing it.Because it is possible to townread someone for a joke and I try not to make up reasons why I think someone is town or scum when I have real ones?
#649 is nothing but fluff, #648 does have substance, but it's only two lines of substance.
Thank you. This is what I wanted to hear a couple of pages ago. I actually agree with this. I should probably re-evaluate my read on you with this in mind and see if I still think you're scum.In post 665, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote: No, you and copper apparently can't see it, I have no idea what iron does or does not see and no one else seems to think it's a strange position. But newb-scum have two possible routes they go, they either are lost about how to fake scum hunt and their biggest priority is failing into the background where no one notices them and they can let their partner do the heavy lifting or they chime in to promote a town/town fight, they do not crack jokes unrelated to anything else that would draw attention more attention to them. Or, they know how to fake scum hunt and they are very good and very thorough projecting the right image of industrious scumhunting, however, they almost always lack levity because they're focused on their act and thus don't tell unrelated jokes. A joke like that comes from someone who is very comfortable in their position and new scum almost never is.
#649 sure looks like fluff to me.In post 666, copper223 wrote:648 is the same point you were making to Accountant without the added sensationalism you put which I was not a great fan of "is everyone else scum then???"In post 664, Dragonfire wrote:#649 is nothing but fluff, #648 does have substance, but it's only two lines of substance.
649 is not fluff, it's legitimate for him to question why Accountant handles DDD in one way and himself in another, Accountant's reply (because DDD is town) acknowledges there was a point there otherwise he would not have answered, yes?
I see where you're coming from now. I just found it a bit odd that you were backing him up and acting as if he was contributing a lot more than he was. I admit I was exaggerating when I said he wasn't contributing at all, but he really isn't doing much to help as it is.In post 669, copper223 wrote:I'm defending him a bit more than usual because I find the the positions of my fellow SE (who told him to replace out) and the IC (who said he is useless) pretty disgusting given the setting of this game.In post 668, Dragonfire wrote:To be honest, I don't see why you're so fervently defending everything iron says. It's not as if he's contributing to the town at all.
I also think those accusations are unfair, now if you want my support for explaining your reads instead of plopping a name out you have it and I already said I found Iron's posting troll early on (so where do you get me defendingeverythinghe posts?) and considered a pressure vote before noticing it would likely be a waste of time.
Yeah, I'm learning that all too quickly playing this gameIn post 671, copper223 wrote:I don't know how much he is helping if he is town, it depends on how good his reads are and from where I am sitting he can't be that far off the mark.
It's also a good experience for you if you're town, you'll quickly realize that although you have some ideas of how town is supposed to play (which look close to mine by the way) many are not going to cooperate with you and trying to change them is just going to lead to arguments or even worse mutual tunneling while scum laughs in the background, so you have to make do with what you've got and learn to read and play with different play-styles from yours.
I don't think so, but whoever replaces MaidMarian might be a newbie.In post 681, JaeReed wrote:Yeah I know we have them like, in general, but I meant in this game.In post 680, goodmorning wrote:Absolutely! Nearly every time I IC I find myself giving advice like "just do your best" and "don't worry about looking Town, it'll shine through."In post 675, JaeReed wrote:@GM do we have actual newbies here anymore?
@copper: I really don't think it's just me at this point.
Yeah, me too. It's not that well known since I've only played on game as scum here, but I don't do bussing unless my teammate is basically doomed and it's inevitable that he/she will be lynched that day.In post 683, copper223 wrote:I hear you, this game it's even easier, every non scum flip in Accountant / DDD / GM makes the chance that I am scum increase and if all three are town you should go ahead and assume I'm scum (cause I truly deserve to lose in that case, it would also mean scum are the newbies which I wouldn't mind that much losing to or it involves you and this post is pointlessIn post 681, JaeReed wrote:I have an easy way to read copper later on in the game so I'm just waiting on that....if we're both alive that long.
Conversely it's a well known fact that I hate and almost never buss my teammates, I would never dream of doing so D1, so if one of them flips scum I am the closest thing you have to confirmed.
Well, I've been through his ISO and looked at various posts again, and to be honest I'm still leaning scum on him. While I did like his explanation of the townread on drealmerz, I feel that an experienced scum could just have thought that up eventually. The fact that he never explained it earlier (which could have prevented the whole debacle) might mean that he was struggling to come up with a reason, as scum. So my vote will stay where it is, because I really can't see who else I'd lynch today other than him.In post 685, GuiltyLion wrote:so I've swung fully around to town!Jae
I could do DDD today, but only after I see what comes out of this:In post 668, Dragonfire wrote:I should probably re-evaluate my read on you with this in mind and see if I still think you're scum.
But you said you don't actually townread DDD, you think he's town by PoE. The use of "PoE" implies that anyone who you find scummier than him you actually scumread; that is what PoE means.In post 686, Accountant wrote:NO I SAID THOSE GUYS ARE SCUMMIER THAN DDD THAT DOES NOT MEAN I SCUMREAD THEM
So you only have two townreads, GL and Jae, and you scumread everybody else??
Okay, that makes more sense than what you said before.In post 689, Accountant wrote:I am ELIMINATING DDD from my scumlist because scum is in the LIST OF PEOPLE scummier than him
Give me some examples. Why should I be following up on things you say when you just say "I think Dragon's scum" with no reasons.In post 693, goodmorning wrote:Dragon keeps not following up on anything I say & it's bothering me.
I never said his post was scummy because it was brief / light. I also know how catch-ups work. I've explained why I found his opening post scummy already, and he has responded. Why should I have to justify myself to you as well?In post 695, goodmorning wrote:Just from recently:
In post 659, goodmorning wrote:Yeah, no, that's the bit that doesn't make sense to me. Idk about you, but I can see (or at least make an educated guess) where his reads are coming from. Like, that's how catch-ups work; you quote things that seem important and/or you want to respond to especially. You can't quote every single post because it would be a waste of everyone's time.In post 632, Dragonfire wrote:Read DDD's first "catch-up" post and then his replies to copper after that. He basically quoted a lot of posts and then gave seemingly random reads at the conclusion of his post (for instance he said he townread drealmerz solely based off drealmerz's joke "Banana Split" post). I could see it being a joke, but he maintains that he was being serious. See copper's below post:In post 626, goodmorning wrote:I was kind of ignoring that whole thing because I thought it was silly, can someone give me a quick summary?
In post 630, copper223 wrote:No Jae, the first post that DDD makes and then his reply when I accuse him of selecting posts that don't match the reads that he gives at the end.
I had no idea that I was meant to "follow through" or respond to this, since frankly I had no idea what you were saying here and assumed you were just expressing frustration with people misinterpreting Accountant's reads list point. And for your information, I've cleared that one up too.In post 663, goodmorning wrote:ugh, not you tooIn post 661, Dragonfire wrote:So you only have two townreads, GL and Jae, and you scumread everybody else??In post 644, Accountant wrote:People who are scummier than DDD:
GM, dragon, copper, iron, drealmerz(close but slightly scummier)
It's absolutely batshit insane to lynch DDD while all five of these people still breathe oxygen
You misunderstand what I said. I don't really find your initial post weird anymore, now that you've explained it. However, I still find your subsequent activity (and that of oncilla) scummy, and if you were scum you could have easily made up the explanation. This is not me saying "You made a logical point but you must have made it up 'cause you're scum." (which is what you're saying I did in this post). This is me saying "Although you've made a logical point, I still find you scummy due to other things you've done, and so it makes sense that you made it up if you're scum." Basically, I do scumread you less since you made that point, but you are still scummy to me and frankly, there's nobody else who I find as scummy so my vote is staying on you.In post 696, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:Don't forget the part where my initial post is scummy for not explaining everything in minute detail and then when it's explained logically suddenly I just made up those reasons despite the fact that I pretty clearly was willing to go to the mat for the post. So the argument is that as scum, I made up a bunch of nonsense, then instead of treating it as a joke defended that nonsense aggressively, and only later came up with exact reasons that match my initial post. For reasons, I really can't fathom what advantage I would gain from doing this but motivations don't matter in dragon-world. Oh wait, the reason is that Dragon doesn't want to break the wagon he's on despite it going from bad to shite.
Leaning town.In post 697, Accountant wrote:Everyone give me their reads on Jae please.
Actually, I don't now that you've made your point about unsorted players. I initially understood that since you found more than half the town scummier, you were assuming he was town. But now that you've said Jae is on the "unsorted" list... I know people have said this about me and my town-reading, so I understand I'm being slightly hypocritical here, but I do feel as if you might be purposefully listing most people as scummy so that it'll be easy for you to justify a vote on them.In post 709, Accountant wrote:VOTE: copper
Dragon understands, GM understands and DDD understands. They can't all be scum. Get over yourself
In post 717, goodmorning wrote:If you had no idea what I meant, surely the appropriate response would have been to ask me?
It's not just those two posts; I feel like you've been ignoring me more generally as well (I'm mentioned 19 times in your ISO; Accountant 65 times [that's over 3x more mentions though he only has a little over 2x more posts than me]; Jae has 51 mentions [which is more than their number of posts]; Lion hasSo why are you suspicious of me "not following through" on things when I actually have, and with the people that they concern. Do you want me to duplicate my answer just for you? Or are you just not reading what I post?
Why? Give me a good reason because I'm not seeing it.
It's not that you haven't already answered literally everything there is to answer. I actually find myself unable to sort you, and I don't think there is anything else I can ask you. I always find it hard to read the IC though.In post 726, goodmorning wrote:Obviously you know now what I meant since Accountant took like 3 posts to finally explain it to you.
Then surely I should be mentioned MORE? If you find me hard to read, why aren't you actively trying to sort me? Where are the questions? Why spend so much time circlejerking with people you strongly townread and ignoring people you have yet to sort? I DON'T GET IT.
I agree with Jae on this one, it's not that good a reason actually. I doubt it's alignment indicative. Either way he just wants you on his side.(But also, I have a good reason for you, whether Jae deigns to answer you or not. I don't think ScumDDD is dumb enough to ask me for help (616).)
Didn't you literally just say this:In post 729, JaeReed wrote: Anyway, that's why I'm partial to a DDD lynch, but I don't think I'll be voting there unless it's a deadline rush.
Quite contradictory if you ask me.JaeReed wrote:I've gone through DDD's ISO and I'm not willing to vote there anymore.
To be honest, I can't really see him townreading drealmerz off the joke post alone as either scum or town. Scum, as you say, probably would have come up with better reasons, but town would have looked deeper into his posts and not just townread him off one post alone.Not a good enough reason to townread someone. It's dumb as either alignment imo. But I think a scum!DDD could come up with better reasons to townread drealmer than the joke post (and I'm guilty of townreading ppl off early joking as well) especially since drealmer did have other content to be read off by that stage. Which means I'm siding with Accountant on this one.
No, it was GM, she said "inb4 amished" before DDD mentioned it.In post 731, copper223 wrote:What is this crap Jae?
"The fight" dragged on because DDD's position today has been, copper you've attacked me as soon as I replaced and I believe you did so maliciously and made up a reaction test to cover-up for it, so fuck you I am not answering anything you ask and I want you lynched. He has not moved one iota from this position, how is that me dragging the fight on for too long exactly?
The first to mention the amished tell was DDD, not GM.
Okay, that makes more sense. I thought you were saying "I'm prepared to vote him, period." in your second post. Seems I misread it.In post 732, JaeReed wrote:How? Not willing to vote DDD unless we are looking at a no lynch is the same as not willing to vote DDD if you ask me. I'm not going to have a no lynch D1, but I'm not going to vote DDD unless we're facing a no lynch for it. It's not contradictory, it's common sense. You can't agree with me then say I'm contradictory in the same breath, yo.
Exactly, I found it quite overdone as well, which is why I found it odd that DDD seemed to strongly townread something which I found NAI. I don't see a particular scum motivation for townreading him based on that post, but neither do I see a particular town motivation. FYI, the post and his response is not why I think DDD might be scum.I can see him townreading off that as town because I've done it before. It's a tone reading angle. Newbscum tend to be stiffer when they try to make jokes and worry a lot about what they're saying. The joke came across as overdone to me, which gives a stiffness, so I disregarded it while reading the dude, but I can definitely see why someone else would townread joking. It shows a relaxed manner. I stopped thinking of it as AI the moment I knew drealmer wasn't a complete newb to mafia, but that's not to say other ppl aren't gonna read him that way.
What's the scum motivation for him townreading drealmerz off that post?
Yeah, if I'm remembering correctly DDD scumread me for the so-called "amished tell" and GM mentioned it but didn't scumread me for it.In post 735, copper223 wrote:You're right, must have been tired when I wrote that one down under DDD, it also makes sense now why GM tells me later she clearly knows the tell as she called it out by name.In post 734, Dragonfire wrote:No, it was GM, she said "inb4 amished" before DDD mentioned it.
Always nice to get my daily dose of spam.In post 736, Accountant wrote:get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper
Even if copper is scum, lynching him won't be an automatic win. We'd still have to find his buddy. So I find your attitude rather worrying, as you're going to stake your own life on someone else's (if you're town).In post 739, Accountant wrote:I don't think further discussion at this point is constructive. The lines in the sand have been drawn, everyone's hammered out their positions. Let's just lynch copper and win.
I'm voting DDD because I find him the scummiest out of everyone. Some time when I have more time, I'll compile some of his and oncilla's posts, and arguments others have made, to make a sort-of case on him. How do I keep dodging it? We all know I'm voting him.In post 740, goodmorning wrote: @Dragon: There's always something you can ask.
Also I don't know why you keep dodging the fact that you're on the DDD wagon and yet seem totally unwilling to actually push the damn thing.
I'm not exactly going to get anywhere with it, am I? Half of the player base seems to have DDD as lock town so what point is there?In post 744, goodmorning wrote:You're dodging the fact that you seem unwilling to push the wagon.
Do you think I'd make a case solely based on what oncilla said? The only post I plan to bring up from oncilla is the one in which he selectively responds to things rather than just replying to everything, which I believe copper called him out on.In post 746, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:That's because I've taken apart every argument they've actually brought up; you can see how desperate he is to get traction because he plans to bring up things oncilla said (probably because oncilla isn't here to defend their arguments any more).In post 744, goodmorning wrote:You're dodging the fact that you seem unwilling to push the wagon.
If you think lynching me will give you information and help you find the scum, then go ahead. But I doubt it. I don't think it will actually get you anywhere. But seriously, I'd rather be dead and confirmed as town than a living distraction stopping you from finding the real scum. And anyway, this game is really getting to me. I can't seem to read people, I have basically no scumreads and I feel like I'm the only newbie among really experienced people. I'm not a newbie, but I'm nowhere as experienced or good as the rest of you, and I think it's showing. So maybe it would be better if you just lynched me and were done with it. You all scumread me anyway so it's not as if I wouldn't just be lynched on D2 if not today.In post 753, goodmorning wrote:I begin to forsee a Dragon compromise wagon and I think I like it.
Thanks, and I'm working on it.In post 757, copper223 wrote:@Dragon
Never give up if you're town.
I'd like to read your full case on DDD.
I'm interested, what would you have thought if I'd decided to go back on my scumread on DDD and unvote after his post?In post 760, GuiltyLion wrote:I keep rereading the last few pages but I don't see anything new I want to say that hasn't been covered. It feels like things are dragging things out while we're in stasis waiting for a replacement and a deadline.
Dragonfire noting that DDD's reasons for townreading drealmerz, yet still sticking to his scumread when I expressed a willingness to join that wagon looks like opportunistic play. I'd go for Dragonfire but I don't think Accountant-Dragonfire makes sense as a team, so my view of the game isn't fitting together perfectly
Thanks for the advice. I promise you I will have that case up within the next 12 hours. That probably won't save me from a lynch, but at least I'll have tried.In post 768, JaeReed wrote: @Dragon seconding not to give up if you're town. There's always something you can do. The main thing is that people don't think your read on DDD is genuine, which is in part coming from you giving up on the promised case. It's ok if you planned to case him then realized it wasn't as strong as you first thought it was, so long as you can show that you were genuine in your read. It's ok if you stopped scumreading him and it's just a "this is what I thought I had at the time". It's ok if it boils down to "I didn't believe him when he said x was the reason he did y" so long as you can show the progression.
If it still looks like people are scumreading you and you're going to be lynched the best thing you can do is look at your own wagon. Who's scumreading you and who is defending you, and give final thoughts and reads since you know your own alignment and the rest of town don't just yet. But the situation isn't there just yet. First, show us the reasoning for the DDD scumread?
