Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[Accountant]

VOTE: StaplerTowel

Never staple your towel.

[Accountant]

@oncilla: Do you think that JaeReed seriously believes that statement will make them seem townie?

@drealmerz: copper gave a pretty correct math analysis of why no lynching is bad. On an abstract level, the idea is that town exerts influence on the game through lynching - they have the majority so they control the Day while mafia controls the Night. It's strange for them to give up that advantage.

[Accountant]

No Lynch is most useful during MyLo situations. For example, suppose you had 4 people alive, 1 of whom is scum. If you lynched a townie, and the scum kills a townie, then they will endgame the other townie the next day(because then town:scum ratio becomes 1:1, so scum controls the lynch majority). In this case, town's chances of winning are 1/4. However, if they no lynch, and scum kills a townie, then you have 3 people alive, 1 of whom is scum. In this case, town's chances of winning are 1/3. So in this scenario it's optimal to no lynch.

[Accountant]

This game isn't just about finding scum - it also acts as a gateway or welcome game into MafiaScum. As an experienced player, I have a duty to help explain game theory and game concepts to newcomers. The concept of No Lynch, especially when it is and isn't viable, is an important part of game theory. Therefore, it's only natural that I'd explain it to everyone. This does not stymie proper discussion of the game like you implied in post #40("trying to keep us from discussing something useful"). That's because it's possible to have multiple threads of conversation in a single game - it's not as though if I'm talking about No Lynch, that means everyone else has to drop what they're doing and also talk about No Lynch. It would only stymie real discussion if it was long, spammy or obnoxious to the point where players find it hard to get to the bits where actual gameplay takes place.

[Accountant]

Nobody sane poses the idea of D1 nolynch because everyone would laugh at them regardless of alignment(unless they're clearly inexperienced and don't know why it's bad, but in that case they'd just be shut down).

While it's true that NL gives more time for a cop to investigate it also gives mafia more chances to kill them. Also, at the end of Day 1 we don't know if there's a cop and we sure as hell aren't going to ask for cop claims to know whether or not to No Lynch :3

Heck, I've played a game where everyone was town and the only way to win was for town to no-lynch (otherwise the violence kept perpetuating more violence, whereas if peace was achieved, well then, peace was achieved.) In case anyone is curious, night-kills happened because there was a doctor who was a quack (they weren't aware) and every target they tried to save they actually killed.

That's a bastard game, which means it has different rules(nightkills coming from doctor, for instance). This game isn't bastard.

[Accountant]

Why is it a fallacy argument? I don't see how my reasoning is fallacious. No Lynch is something mafia want, so someome who advocates for No Lynch would be laughed at by town, and by mafia pretending to be laughing town.

Now, suppose I was absolutely wrong about all of this and your position is correct. Why does this make me scum as opposed to a bad mafia player?

[Accountant]

I think drealmer understands and accepts our position in this game that we are going to lynch D1, he is now arguing about the benefit of NL in the general case and how he believes it is underestimated (which may well be the case, it's not a strategy I am ever fond of for instance),

drealmer, do you think copper was on the mark in interpreting your mindset here?

[Accountant]

It's not a fallacy because the fact that only insane people would seriously advocate No Lynching Day 1 is a point in favor of my reasoning to ignore the possibility that it might happen. Nobody here is insane, so there's no need to consider the question of them doing something that only an insane person would do.

[Accountant]

I think drealmer understands and accepts our position in this game that we are going to lynch D1, he is now arguing about the benefit of NL in the general case and how he believes it is underestimated (which may well be the case, it's not a strategy I am ever fond of for instance),

drealmer, do you think copper was on the mark in interpreting your mindset here?

yes absolutely - the only thing I might change to make it even more accurate is "underestimated" into "underutilized", although I do view it is underestimated too - To me, each game is a case by case basis, and while general theories may prove reasonable a majority of the time, simply discarding an option because of that is a bad idea, imo, and any player saying that they can definitively say "this is a case where this doesn't apply" simply because they're applying a general theory strikes me as an erroneous way of thinking.

If you acknowledge that your arguments for No Lynching Day 1 do not apply and are not meant to apply to this game, and that you accept the position that we are going to lynch D1 this game, then isn't it hypocritical to criticize me for "none of this no-lynch talk applies to this game"(a quote from your post 45)?

[Accountant]

GM: Why aren't you voting me, then?

[Accountant]

Oh, right, it's a carry on from RVS.

Why is me not talking about anything else at that point indicative of scummy behavior?

[Accountant]

I don't think GM is actually reading me as scum due to me talking about NL. I think she's actually scumreading me because of my artificial tone.

[Accountant]

Spoiler: Unofficial VC

Stapler (L-3) - Accountant, copper
Accountant (L-3) - goodmorning, dreal
dreal (L-4) - Ast
goodmorning (L-4) - Jae
Jae (L-4) - oncilla
copper (L-4) - Stapler

p-edit: Because there's a surprising amount else to talk about.

Are you being tonally different than you were last time we played?

No - and the last time we played, I was scum.

What issues were there that were on the table that I skipped over or dodged in favor of speaking about NL?

[Accountant]

@GM: Oh man, I confused you with farside. Never mind.

Okay, what info that I miss and not talk about?

[Accountant]

@Jaereed I don't see why you guys keep bringing up that the game is supposedly newbie while only me and Stapler (which apparently lurked for a while and seems familiar enough with it) are confirmed ones. Just treat it like an average game.

What do you mean that they're repeatedly bringing it up?

[Accountant]

Asty's declaration of newbness isn't scummy unless he's using it to excuse away scummy actions.

[Accountant]

Why'd you pick Jae and GM specifically?

[Accountant]

What do you think of Jae's entrance into the game? What do you think about copper, generally? There's a lot there, I think.

I didn't find Jae's entrance particularly remarkable. For all that you claim to play conservatively, I find copper's play to be even more conservative - but there I'm stuck without a clue, because I don't know how to treat conservative copper(no meta, etc.)

I will say that I didn't like 75. The excessive amount of question marks means GM is almost certainly joking, which means it reads to me as faked paranoia.

GM, what do you think of Jae?

[Accountant]

Ultimately you're talking about intentional manipulation of her meta vs legitimate following of meta, which I think is rendered null and void when it comes to jokes. That's because jokes are meant to not be serious, so it's hard to glean meta information off them.

Like, scum GM can't seriously think that other players will interpret a joke as her following her town meta, and if this was a genuine thought by town GM she'd have said so more seriously and tried to probe the buddyer.

This joke is NAI for me and it feels reaching when you say it isn't.

[Accountant]

I found Jae's entrance so unremarkable that it was, in itself, remarkable.

I'd like elaboration on this. Is Jae known for their explosive openings or something?

[Accountant]

@drealmerz, I'm pretty sure 104 was a joke. But if not, then you should know that the banana split is flavor, and not indicative of anything except the mod's whimsy.

[Accountant]

I find the way you did that very off/odd

That would make sense, since I found #104 itself to be pretty off. The joke itself is out of place, so any accompanying investigation would feel out of place.

I understand that you've played mafia before, but given that the only games I've heard of you playing are extremely unorthodox and bastard, and you don't seem to understand why No Lynch is a bad idea, there's a nonzero chance you genuinely were trying to analyze the banana split.

Why did you choose to make a joke there?

[Accountant]

drealmerz, do you still believe that our continued talk of theory was alignment-indicative?

[Accountant]

The joke is out of place because it's in the middle of serious discussion. And not, like, a one-liner remark tossed into a serious post, you took an entire post just to write up and post your lengthy joke for reasons I find difficult to explain. It's a post that serves purely no meaning, and thus stands out when people are starting to move out of RVS(if they haven't already) and consolidate positions on their reads.

oah woah woah...*breathes*...I certainly understand that NL is a bad idea, at times (this being one of them), you still not being clear (or seeming to not be clear) on that point about me is frustrating, and makes me think you are possibly scummy just trying to get under my skin/perpetuate the NL talk.

No. This is not what I was doing. It's a brute fact that you're new to this site and the playstyle and methods of this site. Your earlier ideas about No Lynch was one manifestation of this; I could also have pointed to your newbie status, or your 0 games played on site. This is relevant to my point, because it was a genuine indication that you may be too new to understand that flavor is not indicative of anything(which is something that I have seen actual newbies ask about). Since you've made it clear that you do understand, and that it was a joke, we now return to why you chose to put it there.

Earlier, copper mentioned that off-hand remarks from players might give insight into their thought processes. I am interested in finding out what sort of thought process went into the making of this particular off-hand remark.

[Accountant]

On mobile here. I'll address 115 when I get to a PC and can articulate my thoughts properly. GM/Jae, did 104 catch either of your eyes?

[Accountant]

GM, would it be accurate for me to say that you're scumleaning Jae based on 114?

[Accountant]

Don't think so. Newbscum enacting the "whine act" are usually terrified of being tied to their partner, and certainly wouldn't bring their partner into it for no good reason. I personally am not a fan on speculating on associatives preflip.

[Accountant]

What serious discussion was it in the middle of? I don't agree that there was such a discussion going on. If there had been serious discussion going on, I wouldn't have said "I think it is time to try and analyze the most important thing we have available to us so far:" because 1.) the "I think it is time" wouldn't be accurate in the middle of a serious discussion so I wouldn't want confuse things by saying this and, 2.) I'd be talking about the content of the serious discussion instead of amusing myself with some meaningless flavor-talk.

Two posts before the joke post, JaeReed was talking about how he finds GM suspicious for going soft on Asty. He was very seriously pushing her, and still is, for that. Why didn't you count this as serious discussion?

And now you're rephrasing things by saying I'm "new to...the playstyle and methods of this site...[because my] earlier ideas about No Lynch [were] one manifestation of this" which is not true at all and something I thought I made clear (I wasn't purporting no-lynch for this game! AND where I'm from also holds the same general view on no-lynch.)

And now it seems to me you're essentially saying "if you don't agree with the general policy about D1 no-lynch held here on this site, then your opinion/viewpoint on it are simply not going to be taken seriously or considered by me" or something similar, and that is a problem and scummy, to me, regardless that you're not actually taking issue with my no-lynch stance in this game.

*sigh*

This is not true.

At the time I wrote my explanatory post, the only things I knew about you were that you had played a bastard game and that you were new to the way the site operated. I knew the first from your own admission; the second from your ideas about No Lynch(which, despite their merit, are unarguably contrary to site meta). Therefore, it's not unreasonable to think that you might have seriously thought the banana split was significant.

[Accountant]

@GM: What?
@drealmerz: Haven't forgotten about your post. I'll explain why you're scum when I get back to PC.

[Accountant]

addresses the serious issue of me having fun with the banana split picture and proves why I'm scum because of it all

It's more about consistent misrepping/hypocrisy than anything.

[Accountant]

@Accountant
The guy claims he is mis-lynch bait and he is behaving in a way to get on many people's nerves, since nobody has seen previous meta of him where one would at least have to think about him having to stick with it as scum I don't see a reason for his behavior other than that's who he is, if anything the fact he is so unapologetic about it points at him being town.

I've seen a bunch of obnoxious playstyles, but I don't think I've ever seen a player whose playstyle leads to them misrepping people or being hypocritical.

[Accountant]

I did not say that. Do not continue to misrep my position.

[Accountant]

@GM & Jae: Continued spaghetti posting and arguing with each other over semantics isn't helping or convincing anyone of anything and does nothing but strengthen conf bias. Stop, please.

You've already mis-represented me by making assumptions based on very limited facts/evidence (hence the use of the word assumptions) about me

That's not what misrepresentation means. Furthermore, the assumptions were correct. Or do you deny that you are new to this site?

Where am I being hypocritical? Again, I never intended to be, and it is likely you misunderstand or I didn't elaborate enough for you to understand

I'll be looking forward to your explanation, then.

But really, if you're going to start calling someone hypocritical and scum, you should really be somewhere where you can fully explain yourself and what you're talking about and not just mention things you want to talk about in the future, that is like, really scummy, imo.

I can already fully explain myself, I just choose not to because it's irritating trying to quote and refer to other pages on mobile. Stop trying to put your own spin on what I'm saying and pass it off as reality. Nobody is fooled.

[Accountant]

At this point I feel like you two are talking past each other and nothing is being accomplished.

That's how I feel about you and Jae.

[Accountant]

you didn't say what, exactly?

I did not claim to know definitively you are scum. But I do strongly suspect you, because you're behaving in a very scummy manner.

[Accountant]

Anyway going back to my oncilla suspicions, I was thinking about why my gut wasn't happy with his posting (because on the surface he seems to be scum-hunting well) and I remember a good read serrapaladin gave in a game; most (newbie) town players will go through the thread linearly, they see something, comment about it, move on to the next thing that happened, read it, give their opinion etc... but oncilla seems to be selectively picking out some of the points of contention in the thread and always finding a reason for why that's potentially scummy, I think that could point at a different motive compared to trying to game-solve.

When did you start to grow suspicious of oncilla?

[Accountant]

I seriously can't fucking stand when people play from their phone or whatever device that sucks and then say "sorry I can't play even up to par or how I should be because I'm on a POS playing half-assed instead of being considerate and making quality posts like the other players." it's started become very anti-town, Accountant, distracting from other things that seem more meaningful, like that squabble between jae and GM.

This argument is not valid. You argue that I am not making quality posts and using my mobile device as an excuse. This is untrue - every post I make is game-advancing. The only thing that mobile devices stop me from doing are make

lengthy

posts. Despite what your previous experience playing mafia may or may not have taught you, length does not strongly correlate to quality(this is also true in school, the bedroom and many other places).

The second accusation is nonsensical. My posting on a mobile device hardly distracts from the conversation between GM and Jae.

Your lack of ability to play effectively from the "mobile" is detrimental to the game.

Ah - but we still have plenty to discuss that can be done through short, mobile posts. Such as your repeated misrepresentations of what I am trying to say.

So like me you're tending to both GM and Jae being town?

Feels like a TvT.

[Accountant]

Well when you say "I'll explain why you're scum" that is quite definitive and doesn't mean "I'll explain why I think you're scum" - it's harder language than that, you realize?

There's no difference in my mind.

anyway, you've hit me so many times as scummy and that stuff between jae and GM seems silly too (not as silly as this, mind you), soo, yep, now I figure it is best to chill on it and allow others to make their assessments on us, I mean, feel free to do whatever you were going to do but, I'm pretty much done with this with you unless you have any questions for me that are necessary to clear up.

I see.

[Accountant]

I'm back on my PC. I no longer believe drealmerz is scum, but I can write up my old case for anyone interested in my thought process.

[Accountant]

In post #40, drealmerz votes me.

for continuing to go on about no-lynch even though it seems to have been established that there's no point in discussing it in relation to this game - trying to keep us from discussing something useful?

I replied with the following quote:

As an experienced player, I have a duty to help explain game theory and game concepts to newcomers. The concept of No Lynch, especially when it is and isn't viable, is an important part of game theory. Therefore, it's only natural that I'd explain it to everyone. This does not stymie proper discussion of the game like you implied in post #40("trying to keep us from discussing something useful"). That's because it's possible to have multiple threads of conversation in a single game - it's not as though if I'm talking about No Lynch, that means everyone else has to drop what they're doing and also talk about No Lynch. It would only stymie real discussion if it was long, spammy or obnoxious to the point where players find it hard to get to the bits where actual gameplay takes place.

Later on, drealmerz defended himself with the following:

I wasn't in the middle of it/partaking in that discussion at all, and even so, what about having multiple things going on at once? Harmless post is harmless post, no matter what is going on around it, as it shouldn't distract from real meaningful conversation unless scum try to make it do so, imo.

I don't like this, because it's almost the same as my response to his accusation - and if he had known this, then he would have known his accusation in 40 had no merit in the first place. It could be argued that he had understood my point in #41 and agreed, but then he would retract his earlier accusation of me trying to distract from the rest of the game with my talk of NL theory, and he did not. Notably, he did not correct GM when she did so, either, which you would expect if he genuinely believed that it's okay to talk about off-topic things as long as it's not obnoxiously spammy. In 158, he also mentioned that he thought my phone posting was distracting from the actual game as well, leading me to believe that he does not fully agree with the concept, which makes his utilization on it in his own defense pretty odd.

This is what I meant by his hypocrisy - he has inconsistent views on the topic, which leads me to believe he does not actually care about something distracting from the game and only wants to use it as a way to push his own agenda.

I think I've covered drealmerz's misreps fairly well, calling them out as I see them.

Another major point is his inconsistency regarding the point of #104.

132:

To me, it was the perfect time for a post like that. I like to make posts like that to stir things up, get some reactions from people, see if I can generate reads from it.

This is in reference to 104, and makes it fairly clear that drealmerz meant the post at least partially as a reaction test.

This isn't consistent with 107:

Definitely intending to be silly with #104, and I find your comment about it to me rather odd, Accountant. You did read that I've played mafia before, yes? You've got to know that I know the picture is just a picture and is not something to be analyzed. If I were a noob I could see you wanting to make sure I was clear, but, yeh, I find the way you did that very off/odd (so much so it makes me more comfortable in my vote for you. Of course it's not DAMNING OMG YOU'RE SCUM or anything, but, it's just a bit of something to go on at this point, more than anything else.)

Where he makes it clear that it's a pure joke. You could argue that drealmerz was being misleading about the nature of 104 in order to avoid "blowing" the reaction test, but note that at this point he had already received the reaction he wanted from me, so there's not much point in hiding it any more. Indeed, he could have pointed out the fact that the post was a reaction test as a defense against me saying the post is out of place, but declined to do so, leading me to believe that the whole reaction test thing was more or less something that he made up on the spot.

Again, the dual nature of his post leads me to believe that the nature of 104 is nothing more than something for him to manipulate according to what is most convenient for him - when he wants to slam me, he can claim I failed the reaction test; when he wants to defend against people claiming it's out of place, he can just say it's a mere joke and they're blowing things out of proportion.

-

The reason I changed my mind about drealmerz is twofold:

1) I was engaged in a protracted argument with him. I'm always suspicious of scumreads arising from stuff like that, because it's statistically unlikely for the person I hop into a game with and immediately get into a shouting match with to just coincidentally happen to be scum. It's far more likely to be confirmation bias - indeed, I found fewer instances of hypocrisy, misrepresentations and inconsistency than I thought existed when I went over both our ISOs in the writing up of the case above.

2) Marquis once said that since town are more likely to appear than scum, it's okay to throw away a body of scummy posts if you find a single post that you think is impossible to come from scum. I have not found such a post, but I have found something that is sufficiently unlikely to come from scum that it outweighs the evidence against drealmerz. Namely, this quote:

anyway, you've hit me so many times as scummy and that stuff between jae and GM seems silly too (not as silly as this, mind you), soo, yep, now I figure it is best to chill on it and allow others to make their assessments on us, I mean, feel free to do whatever you were going to do but, I'm pretty much done with this with you unless you have any questions for me that are necessary to clear up.

By pure content it's townish, but I really like the tone of this. It was on the strength of this that I decided to cease scumreading drealmerz. UNVOTE:

[Accountant]

Because it's a sign that someone doesn't really believe in his previous statements and was just using them as an excuse to vote someone. Like, if you say X is scummy then do X, it's likely you're scum who doesn't care about X and is just using it as a piece of made-up reasoning to mislynch a townie.

[Accountant]

Welcome Guilty!

[Accountant]

Why is it unreliable as a scumtell?

[Accountant]

Sorry; I don't see the scum claim. Can you please elaborate why it's a scum claim, copper?

[Accountant]

The "you didn't move your vote when I would have expected you to" argument is pretty transparently bad, he's holding GM to some arbitrary standard of how a townie should play and scumreading her for not doing that.

also I don't like his apparent belief in a GM/Asty team as it requires two massive assumptions that a) Asty must be scum for his RVS post and b) GM must be his partner intentionally not voting or drawing attention to him.

Why is this scummy? Do you think a town Jae would make less assumptions, hold GM to a lesser standard?

his case on GM was terrible. It seems like the reason behind his scumread was because GM didn't move her vote and because she ignored Asty's first post while commenting on dreamerlz.

Goes for this as well, actually. You've explained the weakness of the case, but not why it was more likely to come from scum than town.

[Accountant]

VOTE: copper

You should know better than this.

drealmerz seems to have gone MIA, which is a shame, because I want to hear his thoughts on GL and DDD.

[Accountant]

Not explaining your reads. I asked for one earlier and you deliberately ignored me. It also gives strength to the earlier accusation that you're just surfing along doing your own thing without trying to legitimately advance the game or your reads.

[Accountant]

It's insulting and silly to declare that you know who the scumteam is on page 9 without any explanation or obvious sign given.

[Accountant]

UNVOTE:

[Accountant]

So I'm scum because I didn't provide exact in-depth breakdowns of my thoughts on Dreal and GM? There's no possible town values for withholding partial information? If you're not detailing every exact read you have in complete detail then you're scum? Pretty sure that's an absurd standard and if you held everyone to it equally you'd have eight scum reads, nine if you decided to evaluate yourself.

This is a misrep of what he is saying.

[Accountant]

w h a t

It's symbolic. I want time to think about things before I place my vote again.

[Accountant]

Jae, why aren't you voting GM?

[Accountant]

Why is at least one of them scum? Do you agree with copper's reasoning?

[Accountant]

VOTE: copper

[Accountant]

Why?

[Accountant]

Position in the wagon isn't relevant unless you're referring to the butter zone, which is a myth. I don't see how timing is either. Not sure what you mean by flow of the game.

[Accountant]

Everything that I want to say has been said. Besides that, I'm just sheeping my strongest townread.

[Accountant]

Who is your strongest town-read?

GuiltyLion.

[Accountant]

1. Why are you voting me and not JaeReed if that's the case?

2. What makes him very likely to be town in your opinion?

Oh, he's voting JaeReed? Too bad, my townread on Jae is stronger than my urge to sheep. I still want to vote you though, because the arguments against you are good and I love pushing wagons.

Guilty is town due to personal experience playing with him as well as general tone. ScumLion also has no incentive to push Jae(if they were going to side with one of GM vs Jae, it'd be easier to side with Jae and push the IC).

[Accountant]

Dragon - I explain it a little further down the line.

[Accountant]

Why did the VT claim Cop? :3

[Accountant]

P -> Q by itself isn't an obvious statement at all so you need to justify that first.

Leaning town - Accountant, drealmerz, copper, Stapler

Why stapler?

[Accountant]

If town is less likely to be opportunistic compared to scum then you are saying opportunism is scummy.

I missed 267.

I think that DDD's point about you being disingenuous, misreppy and intentionally using arbitrarily high standards to make up reasons to scumread him is a good one. I don't like how you went from "outsider offering occasional commentary" to suddenly super invested the moment someone calls you out - I think that's a lesser version of beetlejuicing. I think that you calling GuiltyLion and DDD obvscum without explaining why, then claiming it was a reaction test, then voting me, is terrible and I don't buy your reaction test argument. I don't like how you were trying to set up an ML here:

if I am screwing up by misreading JaeReed (in which case I deserve the heat) this is where I'd look for their partner.

I've gone through your ISO and I haven't seen a single post that I actually really like. Finally, you're a big wagon, and I like jumping on big wagons, especially if they're justified.

As for the second, scum!GL would side with Jae because it's an easy way to attack the IC. Not to mention some people have said Jae is town but everyone is still kinda ambivalent/townleaning but uncertain on GM.

[Accountant]

It means that I believe that as scum (notQ) you are more likely to be opportunistic (notP), not that you if you are opportunistic (notP) you are necessarily scum (notQ), which is what GM used to discredit the read and which is a logical fallacy.

That's an outright misrep of what GM said. She said that you thought opportunism was scummy, which is what "as scum you are more likely to be opportunistic" means. That's literally what the word "scummy" means. Stop pretending like you don't know, you're an SE. Nobody on earth claimed that someone is confirmed scum because they did one thing that was scummy.

I become more or less involved depending on how strong my reads are (IRL limiting factors also can play a role ofc), before the reaction test I had some town-leans and a weak scum-read on Oncilla who wasn't posting, now I want to know which of you (I mean it's possible I am playing so bad that I only have town against me but that has never happened, in fact I have never been lynched as town (WIFOM WIFOM) so I'll believe it when I see it) think they can push me and crush your soul, which does make me quite invested in the game.

So in other words

your reads strengthened once people started to suspect you

? That's not town mindset. That's OMGUS at best and a scum agenda at worst.

I read 1727 after your vote and Accountant in that game is not very compatible with the Drealmer case you presented earlier on.

It's almost like I change my playstyle between games, because different games have different players and different approaches to playing. Not to mention I learn from my mistakes each game.

This assumption makes no sense to me, further your professed town-read of GL doesn't fit well with your initial reaction to his case on Jae

What do you mean by this?

I think GL's case on Jae is shit - that doesn't mean I don't townread him.

You later don't even know who your top town-read is voting:

Why is this relevant?

If that's the case it's likely you did so because GL is right about Jae and that's why he looks town to you

That would necessitate starting from the assumption that I'm scum.

You're pushing a case on me based on reasoning that's only valid if I'm scum, which boils down to Accountant is scum because X, X because Accountant is scum. And you're doing this, not because you think you can get away with circular logic, but because it looks linear to you - because you already know what conclusion you want to push when you created your case.

Your only interest here is to hear my read, discredit it and move on

Of course. I want to know why you read me as scum. But once you gave a dumb reason for reading me as scum, all I needed to do was show town how wrong you were and move on to something that's more interesting.

[Accountant]

I know of the Amished tell. It's not particularly valid imo. It's weird to criticize your predecessor in general, but not alignment-indicative weird.

[Accountant]

Everything that copper just said is a lie. Lynch him.

[Accountant]

That's what scum would say. Lynch him.

[Accountant]

You claim that everyone pushing you is scum trying to misrep or fuck with you, but there are only two scum and more than two people who are pushing you. Out of [me, GM, DDD] alone, at least one has to be town by brute force. How can it be that we're all misrepping you?

[Accountant]

Yoh're right. I want to get rid of you.

DDD, stop talking about debunked tells and come squeeze copper.

[Accountant]

Dragon, what do you think about copper?

[Accountant]

I think it's way more likely that you're scum than that two town players both decided to misrep you at the same time.

[Accountant]

I would like to hear more about your read on stapler, so I'll take you up on that

[Accountant]

Dragonfire, are the weirdness of Asty's posts important or relevant in your mind?

[Accountant]

If I was scum I'd just say I was sheeping GM, it would explain why I voted copper straight after she expressed disappointment that I unvoted. By general tone I mean that it looks like you're not blending in and going for a list of standard reads + one oddball read to look town, like you usually do as scum. Or rather, your oddball read(Jae) looks genuine instead of something thrown in to make it look like you're not blending in.

[Accountant]

What's your stance on copper, GL?

[Accountant]

I would not lynch Jae today.

[Accountant]

Because there's no good case on him.

[Accountant]

you think his scumread on GM looks genuine? what do you think of him popping into the thread to respond to me yet not doing anything else since I've replaced in?

Misguided? Yes. Genuine? Also yes. I don't think that's particularly relevant. If he were beetlejuicing he'd be doing stuff with DDD as well.

[Accountant]

in favor of defending GM

wat

I spent like two pages going back and forth with you about how terrible your case was before I gave up and decided to just lynch you.

[Accountant]

I didn't ignore it. I said exactly what I thought of it.

Everything that copper just said is a lie. Lynch him.

I'm not interesting in wallfighting with someone for no productive reason. I think I've defended myself enough already, and if anyone still thinks I'm scum that's on them, not me. Not that anyone does.

I've already expressed that I think GL is misguided.

[Accountant]

I invite all players that are not GM

Why not GM?

[Accountant]

Why is that relevant for you?

Because I townread her, so of course I care if you're arbitrarily shutting her out of something.

GM is continuing her tradition of being scum+1 in my games

What does this mean?

[Accountant]

The important word here is "arbitrarily".

[Accountant]

That makes no sense.

[Accountant]

I wanted to get a handle on your mindset. Beetlejuicing means to ignore the thread until someone mentions or accuses you, then you pop back in solely to defend yourself. It's seen as scummy because it means you only care about not getting lynched.

[Accountant]

both the tone I used when scum-reading GL/DDD and the way I replied to him when he asked me about the scum-slip are pretty clear signs that I was up to something

explain

[Accountant]

I just don't post like this, having played a lot of mafia and having been wrong a ton of times I make fun of people thinking they have sure-fire caught scum at the start of D1.

In the game I mentioned where Charloux replaced out I said on page 3(?) that I was going to throw the scum team out there (I actually got 1) because if I was right I could brag to the end of beyond and if I was wrong (as obviously super likely) nobody would remember it anyway.

1) Plenty of people play like this so how do you expect me to know that's not your style?

2) Aren't you literally contradicting yourself here? You claim you don't do X then post an example of you doing X in another game.

[Accountant]

doesn't make sense to assume I can sometimes invent a case and in another instance I need to coast or fake weird stuff in order to buy time to make something up

Why not? I think you're the sort of person who likes to prepare his stuff carefully as scum, unless it's part of a pre-prepared push(which is why you've been playing conservative then suddenly the "reaction test" and the attack on me). So you'd definitely be able to smoothly read your scripted case against me, but when someone pushes you on something you're not expecting(the reaction test) you panic and make shit up.

It's not exactly an uncommon pattern. I do it myself as scum, which is why GL thought I was scummy wrt my townread on him.

[Accountant]

It's not exactly an uncommon pattern. I do it myself as scum, which is why GL thought I was scummy wrt my townread on him.

The problem with your GL town-read is that nowhere in your ISO does it look like you are town-reading him particularly strongly (let alone him being the strongest town-read of them all), starting from you asking me about the scum-slip as if it's a possibility (and not: copper what are you talking about, GL is obviously town) and to the extent that you argue with him about his case on Jae being misguided but then think it's a good idea for you to sheep him on the wagon you say you think he is on.

If reacting badly to surprises is one of your problems as scum, I think you were not expecting me to ask you about the vote and that's what you came up with.

there's a part in my iso which makes it very clear I am town reading him strongly

it's the part which says "guiltylion is my strongest town read"

no idea what you mean about the scumslip

I think GL is misguided about Jae but he's a good player and also town so obviously I'd be more than happy to sheep him in general, just not on that specific case.

again, if I was scum and you asked me about that vote I'd have just said GM and be done with it

[Accountant]

This post illustrates why I think copper is town - the logic does not make sense; why would scum-copper randomly call out first GL, and then both GL and DDD as scum just like that? He would know it would draw attention to him. The fact that it seems out-of-character for copper makes me think that it was a reaction test, and he is town.

Because he was trying to look like cocky town.

[Accountant]

This post illustrates why I think copper is town - the logic does not make sense; why would scum-copper randomly call out first GL, and then both GL and DDD as scum just like that? He would know it would draw attention to him. The fact that it seems out-of-character for copper makes me think that it was a reaction test, and he is town.

Because he was trying to look like cocky town.

Why don't you think it was a reaction test?

Because that's not what a reaction test looks like.

[Accountant]

This is what I was talking about wrt to the scumslip

Sorry; I don't see the scum claim. Can you please elaborate why it's a scum claim, copper?

You claimed GuiltyLion was your top town-read because of his entrance (for reasons that are still pretty murky by the way), this post does not look like a reaction to someone claiming to have found a scum-slip on your top town-read.

why not

if I think someone is town and someone else says they're scum ofc I'm going to ask why

[Accountant]

Dragon, why aren't you voting copper?

[Accountant]

why not

if I think someone is town and someone else says they're scum ofc I'm going to ask why

I already said so, I'd expect something more along the lines of: wtf are you talking about copper, that post from GL was super town, if that were the case.

Why would I say that?

[Accountant]

Specifically why do you believe I would say one but not the other if I townreaded GL?

[Accountant]

Isn't that obvious? Are you claiming that's how you felt but you phrased it differently?

what on earth makes you think I would go "wtf that post was so town" if I was townreading GL and you claimed he scumslipped

[Accountant]

Specifically why do you believe I would say one but not the other if I townreaded GL?

It's not impossible for you to say one instead of the other, it's a question of what is more likely.

The same goes with you strongly town-reading him but disagreeing with him about his Jae case and questioning him about it.

The same goes with claiming to want to sheep him but forgetting he was voting the wagon you did not like and had argued with him about.

The same goes with the reasons you give for the strong town read (you somehow divined that he would go for GM as scum and tonally he posted the same way as you are used to as town).

They are all not impossible, but if you sum up what is more likely it comes up heavily in favor of your read being bullshit.

Maybe, but I'm not the one at L-2. I have 0 chance of being lynched today because the people in the know know you're scum.

[Accountant]

Changing angles again. Because that's what you must have felt when reading my post if what you said about your GL town-read is true.

That's a ludicrous assumption.

[Accountant]

His whole case is built on bad interpretations & expectations of how people think and act

[Accountant]

That's the thing. I don't have to convince anyone or argue anything - that's why I'm so flippant in my responses. I'm not going to convince you, since you're probably scum - and I wouldn't be able to convince you if you're town, either. Nobody else believes you, so I don't have to convince

them

. I don't see the need in spamming the thread any further.

[Accountant]

Lynch copper now!!!

[Accountant]

I'm kinda concerned that your play appears to have completely shifted from well-thought out cases and analysis to one-sentence answers and an absolute lack of explanation. Why is it not what a reaction test looks like? If you want to get me to vote copper, you're gonna need to bring some evidence in to convince me he's scum.

The reason for this is because I have

nobody to explain to

. DDD and GM are on the same page as me, GL seems to understand why I want to kill copper, copper isn't going to be persuaded into voting himself - why should I put effort into convincing some hypothetical nobody?

But if you want reasons why you should vote copper:

- he is not trying to figure out who is scum. he's just making up stuff. that's why he keeps throwing frivolous accusations that get rebutted time and time again to the exhaustion of everyone involved.

- because he's not interested in participating in the game, pushing wagons or anything like that unless it's convenient to him, makes him look good or to rebut a wagon that's threatening him.

- because no matter copper's alignment, he's going to be 10x more helpful when he's at L-1 rather than wallfighting to cover up his lack of usefulness.

[Accountant]

to which he replied he was sheeping his strongest town-read

No I didn't.

Everything that I want to say has been said. Besides that, I'm just sheeping my strongest townread.

This quote makes it clear that I was voting copper due to the arguments that people have laid out against him. Sheeping GL is one point, but it's not the main one like copper is sneakily trying to represent it as.

[Accountant]

was in reply to me asking if he still thought I was coasting as he stated the first time he voted

No it wasn't.

[Accountant]

Yeah, precisely. It was in respond to you asking what reasons I have for voting you.

[Accountant]

Newbie games tend to have a ton of replacements.

[Accountant]

Copper is determined to spin an accidental mistake into something more than it is. He's scum. You should lynch him.

[Accountant]

Copper is determined to spin an accidental mistake into something more than it is. He's scum. You should lynch him.

You are the one pushing a narrative, what were you saying about scum needing to peddle one while town doesn't?

I am engaging the rest of the player-list to see what they think.

@Dragon
That's why I think DDD might be town, not scum.

that's absolutely wrong

both town and scum peddle narratives

scum peddle fake narratives, town peddle real ones

[Accountant]

Why did you highlight absolutely?

Your approach now is to push your own (crazy wrt to my read) interpretation as "absolutely" true while my position is: here's what I based my assumptions on and that's why I think this, tell me what you guys think.

Since when did I claim my reads were the word of god?

[Accountant]

Because using absolutely in this game is nonsense.

Quick question: are you a native English speaker?

[Accountant]

"absolutely" is not used to literally mean "absolute"ly. It can be used as an expression meaning "very". check with other players if you don't believe me

[Accountant]

By general tone I mean that it looks like you're not blending in and going for a list of standard reads + one oddball read to look town, like you usually do as scum. Or rather, your oddball read(Jae) looks genuine instead of something thrown in to make it look like you're not blending in.

I went back and reread our Mafia thread together and I don't see anything where I said something about making standard reads + one oddball read to look town. Where'd you get that from?

I noticed by looking at your posts.

[Accountant]

I don't like how copper keeps focusing on semantics.

[Accountant]

It's semantics because you know damn well what she meant and you're trying to spin it a certain way by misinterpreting words. I thought maybe you're just not a native speaker but you apparently are so that can't be it.

[Accountant]

dude you're starting a quibble over a single word. what on earth is our problem??

[Accountant]

Like, I know I've been criticized for getting into back and forth about meaningless trivia, but this is some next level shit

[Accountant]

If GM is scum she doesn't have to parrot anything, because nothing she says in response to your question is AI, because

the question itself is bad

.

[Accountant]

I'm not answering for her, I'm saying the question is utterly dumb and does not reveal anything about GM before or after so you should stop wasting everyone's time and flooding the thread as you like to do.

[Accountant]

The fact it may not be at all relevant to you does not mean it also is not for everyone else (although I realize you are either pretending to or playing so utterly dumb that you fail to appreciate the difference).

the only people it's relevant to are people who are bad at playing mafia

you accused GM of planning her votes long-term, she said she was planning her votes "today" and "today" is not long term

that's it. end of story. literally nothing more to analyze there. you're trying to make it seem like it's not ended for god knows what reason

[Accountant]

At this point I think we should lynch copper, even if he's not scum, just so town can actually discuss without him inserting his pointless discussion into everything.

[Accountant]

"bad habits"? I'm not the one starting 3 page arguments about meaningless trivia here.

[Accountant]

Okay copper for both our sanities let's agree to not talk to each other for the rest of today. We've made our respective stances clear already

[Accountant]

people need to post

[Accountant]

For the record, I've now read the case carefully and it has some merit.

Tell me more.

[Accountant]

Yes. GL made quite a few - I'm interested in what caught your eye.

[Accountant]

I'm tunneling copper. If I'm town, then the tunnel must be good. If I'm scum, then I must be tunnelling a scumbuddy. Either way, copper is scum.

QED, lynch copper quick

[Accountant]

Do you not think that Jae could be inventing a read on GM as town?

I do that all the time.

[Accountant]

Like, sometimes you have a feeling you want to prod someone or gutread that person as scum but you struggle to come up with a decent solid reason why they're bad, so you ISO them and half-cobble a case together through bits and pieces. I'm not saying that inventing reads isn't scummy, just that it's shaky to build an entire case based on a single bad read.

[Accountant]

I feel like you, Accountant, and GM all have weird reads on me..

???

I tr you, GM sr you. What would be a *non* weird vote, if both tring and scring are wrong?

[Accountant]

Jae is town. GM, do you agree?

[Accountant]

I was exaggerating my early townread on you but your later posts seem pretty town.

[Accountant]

Ok, fine. Why were you exaggerating your townread on me?

Because I habitually exaggerate my reads if I have a weak read on a controversial player. It helps stir discussion, make people take sides, force lots of back and forthing that creates great VCA, etc. It's like copper's reaction test, only it's not a lie and it actually works.

[Accountant]

You're not the first person to disagree with my methods and you won't be the last. Nevertheless, you should focus on the actual game.

[Accountant]

Because I habitually exaggerate my reads if I have a weak read on a controversial player. It helps stir discussion, make people take sides, force lots of back and forthing that creates great VCA, etc. It's like copper's reaction test, only it's not a lie and it actually works.

I should buy a face-palm machine for every post I read from you, in these instances I am always paranoid that I am underestimating the other player and this is just scum laying it on so thick it's incredible but sadly experience has shown me that it's more likely to be just townies.

when did your read change from scum to town? you thougth I was scum earlier.

[Accountant]

Scum often fake crazy ramblings/emotional tunnelling to hide. Obviously, that's not what I'm doing, but you have no way of knowing that if you're town. What made you come to the conclusion that I was town tunnelling rather than scum fake tunnelling?

[Accountant]

Copper why are you so determined to interpret what everyone says in a wrong manner

[Accountant]

Nothing written on this page so far helps town, except for the VC and deadline extension request.

@iron what led you to the conclusion it was LyLo??

[Accountant]

quoted for truth. it means "i agree".

[Accountant]

You have to actually answer the questions people ask you

[Accountant]

You have to actually answer the questions people ask you

Are you making up rules now?

Yes and everyone agrees with me so we can force you to follow the rules :^)

[Accountant]

Okay everyone, ironstove clearly isn't interested in helping to contribute to this game. He's either scum who needs rope or reluctant town who needs vote pressure to convince him to participate. Either way, we should all vote him.

VOTE: ironstove

[Accountant]

GM why aren't you voting iron?

[Accountant]

It's clear that ironstove is a toxic player, so he's useless to town. Maybe if his reads were accurate, but they're not.

I suggest lynching copper or Dragon. I don't think GL should be scumreading me for townreading him; that makes no sense.

[Accountant]

it's not like I can't vote copper again at deadline lmao

[Accountant]

what do you mean "outcome"

[Accountant]

That's because he's a toxic, stubborn player.

[Accountant]

ironstove's post make a lot more sense if you replace "scum" or "scummy" with "something I personally don't like or that doesn't suit my agenda"

[Accountant]

Why are the not votings not voting

[Accountant]

You know this DDD wagon we have going

It's terrible, please don't do it

[Accountant]

Sounds like a town leader to me imo

@copper: Enough people are ambivalent/scumleaning on DDD that I'm scared they may actually follow through

[Accountant]

Scared that your partner will be hanged on D1? I understand that sentiment having played as mafia myself in other games in the past. But sometimes it's better to just let go of the things that are holding you back, otherwise you will never be able to spread your wings and fly, instead you will be dragged down and drown in the ocean waters.

I'm town tho

[Accountant]

eli5 why is ddd scum? If it's weird reads or bad reads, people have explained why his reads are weird/scummy but NOT why that weirdness or wrongness

stems from a scum perspective

.

People claim that him reading Drealmerz as town because of the banana post is crazy. But I don't see the scum motivation in it. I'm picturing DDD sitting at his desktop with a malevolent grin and a goatee with lightning flashing above him. And he goes, "mwahaha! i have completely bamboozled these town fools. And now, I will townread drealmerz for his banana post, and then ______, and then scum will reign supreme!"

And I think that _____ is a huge-ass gap and I'm not convinced DDD is scum unless someone can fill that blank in for me.

[Accountant]

@JaeReed:

I'd almost prefer Accountant over DDD because I think if DDD is town then Accountant is whiteknighting.

From your signature:

"Jae defends his townreads like a fanatic" - Charloux

You know damn well why town WK other town. Why are you pretending that WKing is something only scum does?

[Accountant]

I just don't buy that DDD decided to stoke shit up by doing the banana thing. He could have townread drealmerz for any other number of reasonds, even piggybacking off my post explaining why I stopped sring drealmerz. Mafia who wants to write a plausible post doesn't go off about how banana split analysis makes someone town. Mafia who are not invested in the game doesn't make a big post detailing their reactions to stuff and making cases.

He's town worth wking because there can only be two mafia and the list of people scummier than him is fat enough I'm pretty sure both mafia are in there.

[Accountant]

I'd WK Jae if you guys were wagoning him too. Stop playing like iron and voting me because you don't like the way I play. I WK anyone I think is town, and DDD is town by PoE.

[Accountant]

It's not like DDD is obliged to immediately respond when someone calls him out. If he was scum he could have mulled and made up something truly plausible and take his own sweet time.

[Accountant]

I just don't buy that DDD decided to stoke shit up by doing the banana thing. He could have townread drealmerz for any other number of reasonds, even piggybacking off my post explaining why I stopped sring drealmerz. Mafia who wants to write a plausible post doesn't go off about how banana split analysis makes someone town. Mafia who are not invested in the game doesn't make a big post detailing their reactions to stuff and making cases.

He's town worth wking because there can only be two mafia and the list of people scummier than him is fat enough I'm pretty sure both mafia are in there.

"Fat enough"? So far you've only expressed suspicion of copper, iron and me (I think?). That's hardly enough to guarantee both mafia are in there IMO. Are you that certain of your scumreading ability that you're willing to hard-defend an unknown based on PoE? This seems unlikely to me.

People who are scummier than DDD:

GM, dragon, copper, iron, drealmerz(close but slightly scummier)

It's absolutely batshit insane to lynch DDD while all five of these people still breathe oxygen

[Accountant]

she's softballing iron for no conceivable reason

[Accountant]

Ddd isnt obliged to do anything because hes town

You're obliged to do shit because you'll do nothing unless we force you

[Accountant]

I think you should replace out and focus on writing your book of poetry

[Accountant]

So you only have two townreads, GL and Jae, and you scumread everybody else??

NO I SAID THOSE GUYS ARE SCUMMIER THAN DDD THAT DOES NOT MEAN I SCUMREAD THEM

[Accountant]

The REASON for me WKing DDD is because he is TOWN and he is TOWN because of SIMPLE POE

[Accountant]

I am ELIMINATING DDD from my scumlist because scum is in the LIST OF PEOPLE scummier than him

[Accountant]

Its the replacements fault no gifs fault imo

[Accountant]

Everyone give me their reads on Jae please.

[Accountant]

Literally cannot sort them

[Accountant]

Why the hell would you lynch me?

[Accountant]

Jae is in the list of people who are unsorted. Nobody has yet explained why they think my read on GL is bad, they just throw it out going "haha I don't buy it", I thoroughly explained my reasons and you're just ignoring it.

VOTE: copper[/vote
Shitty wagon, never should have unvoted you. Kill this scumlord now.

[Accountant]

VOTE: copper
Dragon understands, GM understands and DDD understands. They can't all be scum. Get over yourself

[Accountant]

How about the following deal

We lynch you and if you flip town y'all can lynch me

If you really are town it should be a good trade for you

[Accountant]

Nonsense. Get them all to precommit to lynching me, I'm sure iron will be more than happy to remind them that they promised to lynch me if you flipped town.

[Accountant]

DEAL ACCEPTED. GLADIATE: COPPER

LET'S GO BOYS

PICK A SIDE

VOTING FOR ANYONE ELSE IS A SCUM CLAIM

[Accountant]

Because it shows how out of wack his read progression on you is, and if you follow through with what that implies about his other justifications his castle of cards falls apart.

someone moved a slot from town to null after 200 posts

confirmed scum ggwp

[Accountant]

get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copperget copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper get copper

[Accountant]

I don't think further discussion at this point is constructive. The lines in the sand have been drawn, everyone's hammered out their positions. Let's just lynch copper and win.

[Accountant]

Jae, who is scum?

[Accountant]

If I was scum I'd just sheep the wagon onto DDD please

@jae: dragon or GM is my best guess, outside chance of iron too.

[Accountant]

Not opposed to a Dragon wagon.

[Accountant]

VOTE: dragon

Opportunistic vote

[Accountant]

Nobody hammer until DDD reacts to the case on hin

[Accountant]

GM, does DDD get emotional when he's falsely accused as town?

[Accountant]

You were likely hoping to get away with not having to explain them, and you probably felt confident you could give some decent reasons if asked.

Scum!DDD knows he's going to get pressed on his reads. Why would he not have reasons prepared? Furthermore, why would he feel confident he could give decent reasons unless he actually could?

[Accountant]

Bullshit

I townread who I want GL, it's not my fault you didn't understand/accept my reasoning

And the reason I went off copper was because nobody wanted to vote him. If I was a dayvig he'd be dead on the spot

[Accountant]

Here's the thing

Copper isnt trying to gamesolve

Neither is ironstove

[Accountant]

What do you think of accountant? I think if he's scum hell be easily caught. Just my opinion.

why

[Accountant]

I don't think we've played together before?

[Accountant]

I still think you'd out yourself if you were faking it for long enough.

At the root of it - why? It's such a bizarre conclusion to come to

[Accountant]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=65520
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67256

Picked those two because they have GL and Jae in them

[Accountant]

Just seems "too scummy to be scum."

No such thing

It doesn't feel natural (to me).

Why do you feel that convoluted natural arguments are difficult/impossible? What about the argument between DDD and copper?

[Accountant]

Can you plz respond to my questions

[Accountant]

What's your opinion of how Dragon jumps in to agree with copper so often, or at least was where I've been reading?

Feels similar to me agreeing with GM earlier. NAI at worst.

[Accountant]

VOTE: copper
I feel DDD when he says copper keeps playing the fake gotcha game

[Accountant]

ate isnt gonna save ya copper

[Accountant]

willing to compro on drag, not on DDD

[Accountant]

jae, you think GM is scum right?

[Accountant]

jae, you think GM is scum right?

[Accountant]

opportunistic intent to hammer

[Accountant]

I dont like it when I say intent to hammer and the guy responds with ate

[Accountant]

my balls dropped off

I cant do it

Someone plz

[Accountant]

DDD, why the switch from Dragon to copper?