Foxbird's Mini Normal Review

[N]

Foxbird has a 13p mini normal to review. Please be aware all reviewers must pass the final version and this topic will be made public after the game has ended.

Reviewers: callforjudgement, mykonian, mastin2

Hello~

1. I'll be ready to run the setup when the queue gets to me! I'm rather excited.
2. My game will have 13 players.
3. My backup moderator will be inspectorscout.
4. I have no other modding commitments; this is my first time in the queue. At most, I will be the backup mod for inspectorscout's Mini Normal that may start at some point during my game, but that's all.
_ _ _

Spoiler: First post - introduction, player list, important links

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX!

I’m your mod, Foxbird! Your backup mod is inspectorscout.
This is my first time modding, so this’ll be an adventure for all of us!

Players

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

Alive:

///

Dead:

///

Important events:

///

Spoiler: Second post - rules

I General Rules

- All normal site rules are in effect. You can find these http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6470.
- I reserve the right to modkill or force replace players if necessary.
- If you wish to communicate with me in thread, please bold your statements.
- If you have any complaints or other more delicate matters to discuss, drop me a PM.
-

>>This<<

is my modding colour. Do not use it, or anything too close to it that it could fool another player.
- Do not encrypt, hide, or otherwise make your text unreadable. You know the drill.

II Voting, Lynching, Death

- Votes will only count in the following two formats. The first one is preferable:
VOTE: Foxbird

VOTE: Foxbird

- Abbreviations and other player nicknames as well as typos are allowed in the votes - if I can recognize them, that is.
- A No Lynch is a possible vote option.
- A lynch will occur when a majority is reached. A majority is half the players alive, rounded up.
- If there is no majority vote at deadline, there will be no lynch.
- Talking after deadline and/or lynch is allowed, up until the thread is locked.
- If you’re dead, do not continue posting in the thread. This includes ‘bah’ posts of any kind.

III Activity

- Days will last two weeks.
- Nights will last two days (48 hours).
- Deadlines will be extended upon probable cause. You may also request extensions if you think they are needed.
- Should a replacement be found during a Night phase, the deadline will be extended regardless of the slot’s night actions.
- Night actions may be submitted via PM or bolded in the Mafia PT.
- Prods will occur after 48 hours of not posting.
- A player will be replaced if they fail to pick up their prod after 24 hours or immediately upon their third prod.
V/LA should be PMed to the mod or announced in thread. Players are ineligible for prods during V/LA periods, though I reserve the right to replace a player, should their V/LA be so long that it disrupts the game.

IV Setup Information

- This is a closed setup using a 10:3 ratio. It has been reviewed for normalcy and balance by [PEOPLE].
- I will not answer any setup questions in thread. If there are questions, PM me instead.
- Mafia players may execute the factional kill and another ability in the same night.
- The Mafia may or may not have daytalk. No questions about this will be answered.
- This game uses the Night Action Resolution (NAR) system.
- At least one player has received the following PM:

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].

_ _ _

Spoiler: Full setup

1x Mafia Roleblocker
1x Mafia Encryptor
1x Mafia Goon

1x Town Bodyguard
1x Town Backup Protective
1x Town Tracker
1x Town Neighborizer
1x Town Innocent Child
5x Vanilla Townies

Spoiler: Mafia Role PMs

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Mafia Goon

.
Your buddies are [PLAYER], a Mafia Roleblocker, and [PLAYER], a Mafia Encryptor.

You have no special abilities aside from your factional nightkill and communication.

You win when your faction becomes the majority or nothing can prevent this from happening.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
The Mafia thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Mafia Roleblocker

.
Your buddies are [PLAYER], a Mafia Goon, and [PLAYER], a Mafia Encryptor.

Every night, you may target a player.
This player’s night action(s) will be blocked.
This affects any action(s) that would be submitted to the mod via PM and resolved at the end of the night.

You win when your faction becomes the majority or nothing can prevent this from happening.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
The Mafia thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Mafia Encryptor

.
Your buddies are [PLAYER], a Mafia Goon, and [PLAYER], a Mafia Roleblocker.

As long as you are alive, the Mafia have daytalk.
Other than that, you have no special abilities.

You win when your faction becomes the majority or nothing can prevent this from happening.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
The Mafia thread can be found [HERE].

Spoiler: Town Role PMs

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Bodyguard

.

Every night, you may protect another player.
Should this player be the target of a kill that same night, you will sacrifice yourself to die in their stead.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Backup Protective

.

Should a town player with a protective role die by any means, you will immediately take their place and gain their abilities for the rest of the game.
Protective roles are the following, in alphabetical order:
Bodyguard, Doctor, Jailkeeper.
Until then, you have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Tracker

.

Every night, you may investigate another player.
You will find out who that player targeted, if applicable.
Results will be given as one of the following:
[Player name], No One, No Result.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Neighborizer

.

Every night, you may target another player.
This player will be added to your neighborhood, where you may talk with them at any time.
Upon your death, the neighborhood thread will be locked.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
Your neighborhood thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Innocent Child

.

At any point during the game, you may privately message the moderator.
Upon doing so, your role and alignment will be revealed in the game thread.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].

_ _ _

There is no hidden moderator information, I think? But to reiterate:
1. The Tracker gets a result of [PLAYER NAME], No One, or No Result.
2. The Innocent Child is revealed upon PM request.

I think that covers all of it! If I forgot something, let me know.

- Fox

[N]

I don't know if this is relevant yet, but I would like to make a small change to the rules I sent in since I just saw that I made a mistake.
Nights should last three days, not two.
That is all!

- Fox

[mastin2]

Well, from a role standpoint, I'd say it's okay: the scum's main PR is a roleblocker, which is really strong, but they're up against a town which is reasonably strong as well. However, they are not overwhelmingly strong: the tracker is a weaker investigative, the bodyguard is a nice protective, and the backup-protective is a nice way of not confirming the bodyguard as town, the town has a fair amount of potential for synergy, but I don't see anything gamebreaking, at least on a glance.

[callforjudgement]

First, looking at normalcy:

"A lynch will occur when a majority is reached. A majority is half the players alive, rounded up."
No it isn't, if there are an even number of players. You want "rounded down, plus 1".

"The Mafia may or may not have daytalk. No questions about this will be answered."
Not Normal. The possible options are "The Mafia have daytalk.", and "The Mafia do not have daytalk (except possibly by means of an Encryptor)."

NAR stands for "Natural Action Resolution". (That said, there don't seem to be any hard-to-resolve interactions in this setup. The only thing I can see you potentially missing is that the Neighborizer's night action will succeed even if the Neighborizer gets nightkilled, inviting the target into the PT.)

Backup Protective is not explicitly Normal but I'm happy to allow it as a "greylist" (i.e. one-off approved custom) role. (This means that if the player dies, you need to post their entire role PM in thread, not just its name.)
Locking the thread when a Neighborizer dies is not Normal. Because you already have a greylist role, you're going to need to change this to a more standard model of Neighborizer. (See the wiki page Neighborizer for the Normal definition.)

The Tracker results could do with being a bit clearer (perhaps entire sentences). I'd recommend something like "[Your target] visited [their target] last night.", "[Your target] did not visit anyone last night.", and "Your action failed." Sending someone a PM that just says "No One" is going to be confusing.


Now, balance. We can basically divide the town power roles into two groups. The Innocent Child, Bodyguard, and Backup Bodyguard are basically "confirmable townies"; the Innocent Child is obviously confirmable, and the Bodyguards can confirm themselves by blocking a kill. (This is working on the basic assumption that the scum wouldn't kill someone who was likely to be lynched, so by redirecting the scumkill onto yourself, you're giving the town extra information because they get the flip of the Bodyguard rather than that of a likely townie.) Because it's possible that the Bodyguards survive all game (due to choosing the wrong targets), this adds up to a bit less than 3 confirmations.

Meanwhile, the Tracker and Neighbourizer are more suggestive than anything. The Tracker can identify one of the scum (the one performing the kill) as scum. This is worth maybe one confirmation on average over the course of the game; the Tracker doesn't exactly confirm themself, and it is quite possible that they die early or miss all game. (I can't see much of a way for them to get a misleading result; scanning pretty much anyone will either get a "visited nobody" or see them visiting a likely townie, which has too many possible explanations if the target doesn't die to be particularly informative. So the Tracker is likely to be averagely powerful for a Tracker in this setup.) Neighbourizer is fairly weak as a role, but tends to help town to a minor extent regardless of which faction uses it, as it's often possible to read someone more easily in a PT than you could in the game thread,

Without the Roleblocker, therefore, I'd assess this setup as townsided. (I'd say it has a little under 4 confirmations via power role actions + 1 via setup speculation; my current yardstick for confirmations in a balanced 10:3, based mostly on daytalk setups, is 3+1.) The Roleblocker, on the other hand, is a fairly powerful power role for scum, especially in this setup. The main reason Bodyguard is valuable is that they can take a bullet for a confirmed townie, thus narrowing the lynch pool. On the other hand, if a Bodyguard claims (for whatever reason) and then get blocked, they'll look like fakeclaiming scum, most likely being mislynched; a scum power role that correctly frames a townie is worth -2 confirmations. As such, the odds of this happening would need to be somewhat less than 1 in 3 or so for the setup to be balanced (and you also have to take into account the possibility that the Tracker gets identified and roleblocked). I suspect the total contribution of the Roleblocker to scum's win chances is a bit higher than that, so I'd place the setup as being mildly scumsided, although probably balanced enough to run. (Reducing the shots on the Roleblocker doesn't necessarily help here; it's likely to be fairly obvious to the scum when the correct time to use it is.)

Let us know how you're changing the setup in response to this post. (You need to at least ensure you don't have more than one non-whitelisted role, and might or might not want to change other parts of the setup depending on the balance feedback from the reviewers.)

[Foxbird]

To address the above posts:

1. Edited rules:

Spoiler: Second post - rules

I General Rules

- All normal site rules are in effect. You can find these http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6470.
- I reserve the right to modkill or force replace players if necessary.
- If you wish to communicate with me in thread, please bold your statements.
- If you have any complaints or other more delicate matters to discuss, drop me a PM.
-

>>This<<

is my modding colour. Do not use it, or anything too close to it that it could fool another player.
- Do not encrypt, hide, or otherwise make your text unreadable. You know the drill.

II Voting, Lynching, Death

- Votes will only count in the following two formats. The first one is preferable:
VOTE: Foxbird

VOTE: Foxbird

- Abbreviations and other player nicknames as well as typos are allowed in the votes - if I can recognize them, that is.
- A No Lynch is a possible vote option.
- A lynch will occur when a majority is reached. A majority is half the players alive, rounded down plus one.
- If there is no majority vote at deadline, there will be no lynch.
- Talking after deadline and/or lynch is allowed, up until the thread is locked.
- If you’re dead, do not continue posting in the thread. This includes ‘bah’ posts of any kind.

III Activity

- Days will last two weeks.
- Nights will last three days (72 hours).
- Deadlines will be extended upon probable cause. You may also request extensions if you think they are needed.
- Should a replacement be found during a Night phase, the deadline will be extended regardless of the slot’s night actions.
- Night actions may be submitted via PM or bolded in the Mafia PT.
- Prods will occur after 48 hours of not posting.
- A player will be replaced if they fail to pick up their prod after 24 hours or immediately upon their third prod.
V/LA should be PMed to the mod or announced in thread. Players are ineligible for prods during V/LA periods, though I reserve the right to replace a player, should their V/LA be so long that it disrupts the game.

IV Setup Information

- This is a closed setup using a 10:3 ratio. It has been reviewed for normalcy and balance by [PEOPLE].
- I will not answer any setup questions in thread. If there are questions, PM me instead.
- Mafia players may execute the factional kill and another ability in the same night.
- The Mafia do not have daytalk (except possibly by means of an Encryptor).
- This game uses the Night Action Resolution (NAR) system.
- At least one player has received the following PM:

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].

2. Edited Neighborizer Role PM in accordance with normalcy standards

Spoiler:

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Neighborizer

.

Every night, you may target another player.
This player will be added to your neighborhood at the beginning of the next day, where you may talk with them at any time.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
Your neighborhood thread can be found [HERE].

3. Edited Tracker Role PM with full sentence result options

Spoiler:

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Tracker

.

Every night, you may investigate another player.
You will find out who that player targeted, if applicable.
Results will be given as one of the following:
“Your target visited [Player name].”
“Your target visited no one.”
“Your investigation yields no result.”

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].

I want the setup to be as balanced as possible, but I'm not sure what to change about it. I assume giving a townie a 1-shot power might do the trick, but I'm unsure what would fit with the setup. The only way to reduce scum's power that I can see here would be making the roleblocker odd/even nighted, but that's a pretty big hit.

[mykonian]

I think cfj did a good analysis of the balance. But IC + protection and a tracker I asses not as strong as he does. I'd take out the RB and see how town plays with a confirmed townie that's likely to stick around for a while.

[callforjudgement]

I think it's townsided without the Roleblocker but not by much. This is the sort of setup that comes down to how good the PRs (on both sides) are at targeting, which is a very hard thing to guess during a review, so I can understand why you (=mykonian) want to weaken scum, and would be willing to approve without the Roleblocker; it's not too townsided to run.

I kind-of like the idea of making the roleblocker alternate nights. Probably I'd be more comfortable with odd nights, based on when the town is most likely to claim (in particular, a revealed Bodyguard

and

revealed Innocent Child is unlikely N1, but much more plausible N2).

[Foxbird]

Spoiler: Full revised setup

1x Mafia Odd-Night Roleblocker
1x Mafia Encryptor
1x Mafia Goon

1x Town Bodyguard
1x Town Backup Protective
1x Town Tracker
1x Town Neighborizer
1x Town Innocent Child
5x Vanilla Townies

I should add a rule that scum can/cannot perform the NK plus additional actions at night, I think. Which version is considered normal?

[callforjudgement]

Either's Normal, but you need to make the choice in advance (and it doesn't hurt to put it in your ruleset).
Allowing scum to perform the NK + additional actions makes sense in this setup to reduce swing; the only time it comes up is if scum are lynched down to one member with the Roleblocker still alive, and in that situation, I suspect they need all the help they can get (as the Tracker would be very powerful in that situation if still alive).

[Foxbird]

- Mafia players are able to perform their factional night kill and another action in the same night.

Added to the rules.

[mastin2]

How about, instead of odd-night, you make it non-consecutive?
That's still a normal modifier if I recall correctly, but gives the scum a little more leeway. (I mean, in practice, it'd be an odd-night anyway, but it does give them the option.)

[callforjudgement]

The problem is that the Roleblocker is relatively low-powered most nights, but particularly powerful immediately after a Bodyguard claim (you block the Bodyguard, then frame them for not stopping the kill, and end up killing one player who "should" be confirmed town, lynching another, then getting an extra nightkill).

Having the Roleblocker action on a fixed schedule reduces the chance of that by not giving scum control over the timing. Meanwhile, a 1-shot variant would let scum save their roleblock for the perfect moment. Non-con is strictly more powerful than 1-shot (although it has the disadvantage of being less good at cluing to scum that they should save it).

[Foxbird]

With the death of a Town Protective, you now inherit their abilities. Here is your new role:

You are a

Town Bodyguard

.

Every night, you may protect another player.
Should this player be the target of a kill that same night, you will sacrifice yourself to die in their stead.

To be sent to the Backup Protective via PM after a BG kill.

[Foxbird]

If the Backup Protective flips after turning Bodyguard, does it say their former role in the flip?

[callforjudgement]

Players should flip with the role they had at the start of the game.

[Foxbird]

Players should flip with the role they had at the start of the game.

So town gets no info on whether it was changed to the full role or not?

[callforjudgement]

They can deduce it from the fact that they saw a protective role die.

(In general, Backups in Normal games are always aware of what role they do and don't have, and other players are always aware of what role a hypothetical Backup would have, because they can see the flips.)

[Foxbird]

Ah! Of course.

[mykonian]

ok, so what are we going to do with this roleblocker.

[Foxbird]

I like having the odd-night roleblocker, but it's ultimately up to you people to decide what's balanced.

[callforjudgement]

I'm happy to approve this with the odd-night roleblocker. (I'd need updated role PMs before I can officially approve.)

[Foxbird]

Spoiler: First post - introduction, player list, important links

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX!

I’m your mod, Foxbird! Your backup mod is inspectorscout.
This is my first time modding, so this’ll be an adventure for all of us!

Players

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

Alive:

///

Dead:

///

Important events:

///

Spoiler: Second post - rules

I General Rules

- All normal site rules are in effect. You can find these HERE.
- I reserve the right to modkill or force replace players if necessary.
- If you wish to communicate with me in thread, please bold your statements.
- If you have any complaints or other more delicate matters to discuss, drop me a PM.
-

>>This<<

is my modding colour. Do not use it, or anything too close to it that it could fool another player.
- Do not encrypt, hide, or otherwise make your text unreadable. You know the drill.

II Voting, Lynching, Death

- Votes will only count in the following two formats. The first one is preferable:
VOTE: Foxbird

VOTE: Foxbird

- Abbreviations and other player nicknames as well as typos are allowed in the votes - if I can recognize them, that is.
- A No Lynch is a possible vote option.
- A lynch will occur when a majority is reached. A majority is half the players alive, rounded down plus one.
- If there is no majority vote at deadline, there will be no lynch.
- Talking after deadline and/or lynch is allowed, up until the thread is locked.
- If you’re dead, do not continue posting in the thread. This includes ‘bah’ posts of any kind.

III Activity

- Days will last two weeks.
- Nights will last three days (72 hours).
- Deadlines will be extended upon probable cause. You may also request extensions if you think they are needed.
- Should a replacement be found during a Night phase, the deadline will be extended regardless of the slot’s night actions.
- Night actions may be submitted via PM or bolded in the Mafia PT.
- Prods will occur after 48 hours of not posting.
- A player will be replaced if they fail to pick up their prod after 24 hours or immediately upon their third prod.
V/LA should be PMed to the mod or announced in thread. Players are ineligible for prods during V/LA periods, though I reserve the right to replace a player, should their V/LA be so long that it disrupts the game.

IV Setup Information

- This is a closed setup using a 10:3 ratio. It has been reviewed for normalcy and balance by callforjudgement, mykonian and mastin2.
- I will not answer any setup questions in thread. If there are questions, PM me instead.
- Mafia players may execute the factional kill and another ability in the same night.
- The Mafia do not have daytalk (except possibly by means of an Encryptor).
- This game uses the Night Action Resolution (NAR) system.
- Mafia players are able to perform their factional night kill and another action in the same night.
- At least one player has received the following PM:

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].

_ _ _

Spoiler: Full setup

1x Mafia Odd-Night Roleblocker
1x Mafia Encryptor
1x Mafia Goon

1x Town Bodyguard
1x Town Backup Protective
1x Town Tracker
1x Town Neighborizer
1x Town Innocent Child
5x Vanilla Townies

Spoiler: Mafia Role PMs

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Mafia Goon

.
Your buddies are [PLAYER], a Mafia Odd-Night Roleblocker, and [PLAYER], a Mafia Encryptor.

You have no special abilities aside from your factional nightkill and communication.

You win when your faction becomes the majority or nothing can prevent this from happening.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
The Mafia thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Mafia Odd-Night Roleblocker

.
Your buddies are [PLAYER], a Mafia Goon, and [PLAYER], a Mafia Encryptor.

Every Odd night, you may target a player.
This player’s night action(s) will be blocked.
This affects any action(s) that would be submitted to the mod via PM and resolved at the end of the night.

You win when your faction becomes the majority or nothing can prevent this from happening.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
The Mafia thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Mafia Encryptor

.
Your buddies are [PLAYER], a Mafia Goon, and [PLAYER], a Mafia Odd-Night Roleblocker.

As long as you are alive, the Mafia have daytalk.
Other than that, you have no special abilities.

You win when your faction becomes the majority or nothing can prevent this from happening.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
The Mafia thread can be found [HERE].

Spoiler: Town Role PMs

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Bodyguard

.

Every night, you may protect another player.
Should this player be the target of a kill that same night, you will sacrifice yourself to die in their stead.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Backup Protective

.

Should a town player with a protective role die by any means, you will immediately take their place and gain their abilities for the rest of the game.
Protective roles are the following, in alphabetical order:
Bodyguard, Doctor, Jailkeeper.
Until then, you have no special abilities.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Tracker

.

Every night, you may investigate another player.
You will find out who that player targeted, if applicable.
Results will be given as one of the following:
“Your target visited [Player name].”
“Your target visited no one.”
“Your investigation yields no result.”

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Neighborizer

.

Every night, you may target another player.
This player will be added to your neighborhood at the beginning of the next day, where you may talk with them at any time.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].
Your neighborhood thread can be found [HERE].
_ _ _

Welcome, [PLAYER]!

You are a

Town Innocent Child

.

At any point during the game, you may privately message the moderator.
Upon doing so, your role and alignment will be revealed in the game thread.

You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

The game thread can be found [HERE].

Spoiler: Message/ Role PM for Backup Protective:

With the death of a Town Protective, you now inherit their abilities. Here is your new role:

You are a

Town Bodyguard

.

Every night, you may protect another player.
Should this player be the target of a kill that same night, you will sacrifice yourself to die in their stead.

I think this is the fully updated version. Let me know if I missed something.

[callforjudgement]

/approve

You need approvals from all 3 reviewers before you can run the setup. (Once you have the three approvals, we'll hand the setup back to N, who will allow your game to start signups once it's the first reviewed setup in the Mini Normal queue.)

[mastin2]

I'll approve it.

[mykonian]

yup, enjoy!