Mini Normal 1829 - Game Over

[callforjudgement]

Michel did really well this game. I think the only way town came close to catching him was PoE (which is always a risk if you're trying to "play the townie" as scum).

[callforjudgement]

Also, thoughts on the setup? I was one of the reviewers who approved it, so if players think it was imbalanced or otherwise problematic, it'd be nice to know so that I can improve for the future.

[callforjudgement]

Also, doesanyone knows how to apply to become a setup reviewer? I'd like to do that.

Easiest way to start is in reviewing closed games in queues with lower review requirements (Mini Theme, Micro Theme); that's how I started. If a mod's looking for a review for a closed game, they ask for help in this thread. (Note that the OP is slightly outdated; normally the reviewers PM the mod and the mod creates a PT for the review, although the process can vary by mod.)

For queues with a higher review standard (Large Theme, Normal), you need some amount of review experience already and (in the case of Large Themes) to have run a Large Theme yourself. Applying to the Normal Review group is done via PMing the Normal list mod (although they may well PM you first once you've built up a reputation as a reviewer).

For Open setup reviews, see this forum. You can just drop in on someone else's setup and post a review. Because there's no reason for Open reviews to be done in secret, it's a good place to see how reviewing works. However, reviews there tend to be more sporadic and less thorough than in other queues, for some reason.

[callforjudgement]

I just checked my review notes (which will probably become public at some point, but someone will need to ask N to open the thread). I wasn't expecting the Vigilante to get full use out of their role; I considered it fairly likely that they'd fail to gain a mislynch. However, they were expected to confirm themself by killing someone (which did in fact happen). The Bodyguard and Tracker collectively were meant to be able to confirm one player (and they did; the Bodyguard confirmed themself by blocking a kill on a confirmed townie, leaving the town one confirmation ahead with the same player count they'd otherwise get). The Gunsmith was meant to give a similar amount of value as the Bodyguard and Tracker together; and that was meant to be enough to balance the setup. Seeing how the setup played out, I think it was about right, given that all the roles had a similar usefulness in practice to the usefulness they were predicted to have.

[callforjudgement]

Is there a reason why mods announce the result of their games in the queue, generally with a spoiler?

The announcement's just so the listmod's aware that the game is over.

I don't think there's any actual reason to announce the result, but it's common to do so. The result gets spoilered in case someone wants to read through the game unspoiled. (This is also the reason why the title just says "game over" rather than "scum win", and why the alive/dead lists are spoilered.)

[callforjudgement]

@mhsmith0: Note that in many setups, Bodyguard is stronger than Doctor. (In this setup, it's weaker in general because it's a kill/protect setup;

however

it turned out stronger in the actual events in the game, as the Bodyguard used the ability to die in the place of a confirmed townie, meaning the lynch pool was one player smaller than it would have been; a Doctor shot would have lead to no net benefit.)

[callforjudgement]

I think we disagree on a few basic things:

1) the vig itself and its functionality in this setup

you think vig/bg/gunsmith is a good set of town powers to have. It isn't. It's a terrible set, because they coordinate really really badly. Gunsmith can easily out the vig early, and bg can accidentally save a scum. Vig is by nature a swingy role; throwing in those two roles nerfs the vig pretty notably.

For what it's worth, I'm increasingly coming to believe that it makes sense for a vig to claim when they have one shot left, unless they suspect a roleblocker in the setup or have missed a kill. Scum can't kill them in time to blank their shot, and the vig can confirm themself by claiming their shot. That would also prevent accidentally blanking the gunsmith.

Additionally, a vigilante and bodyguard don't really interfere. I can believe a bodyguard accidentally protecting scum, but if the scum in question is playing townishly enough that a bodyguard might protect them, it's very unlikely that the vigilante will shoot them on the same night.

Finally, it's worth noting that the town roles have to be at cross-purposes for the setup to be remotely balanced. A 3-shot gunsmith who's immune to being accidentally killed or mislynched before they get full use of their power role balances an otherwise vanilla 10:3 by themself. (The 10:3-with-gunsmith setup is only scumsided because the gunsmith might end up dying early.) And town have so much power on top of that!

And then vig is even further nerfed by being two shot and by having a scum doctor (which in this context is WAY more powerful than a roleblocker against the vig, since rb can easily save a town, while doc is just going to save scum). Basically, a two-shot vig is negative EV against a scum doc UNLESS town has the ability to outright stop another night kill (jk or doc or rb or commuter/hider etc.). So mechanically speaking, a 2-shot vig is reasonably likely to only have one kill go through (double shooting or shooting a protected scum), which makes it merely a role that puts town on evens, which really isn't much use, ESPECIALLY given the reasonable likelihood that vig shoots a town PR.

A roleblocker would be much more useful for scum,

because

it can save a townie from being vigged. Blocking a vig shot on a townie is typically good for scum, as the townie in question is quite likely to end up mislynched (if they weren't, why would you vig them?) and thus giving scum an additional kill. (Especially because if a vig kill on a player is prevented, that strongly suggests that the player is not town-aligned.)

2) gunsmith with a false guilty (vig) false inno (mafia doc) and fake claimable guilty (mafia vanilla cop) is super nerfed, even before the 3-shots. As much as I hate cops, it should have been a 3-shot cop with that much power set up to screw with it. Tracker is ALSO nerfed, since it has multiple scum roles that visit at night and can suggest false innocents.

It has to be nerfed given how powerful the role is when it isn't. (It should be noted that we assumed the players would guess the presence of a mafia doctor. They did.)

3) town lacked a single super strong role to build the game around. No full vig, no masons, no alignment cop. If town isn't going to have a really big role to build around, it needs roles that work reasonably well together, and/or basically no scum power. Instead it got roles that worked badly together, and a lot of scum power opposing it. This is a setup that's going to be won by scum probably around 2/3 of the time as a closed setup IMO on MS. I'd say that's really pushing the boundaries of balance.

The game was swingy enough as it is (mostly due to the Mafia Doctor; if they died early, a town win would be almost inevitable). Concentrating town's power in a single strong role would make things even swingier. (As it is, town had several roles that gave a lot of information by themselves. If the bodyguard stops a kill, that leaves the lynch pool one player smaller than it would otherwise unless the bodyguard was already confirmed by other means. The vigilante is also unlikely to get lynched as they can claim to save themselves; that removed two players from the lynch pool in the actual game. Removing three players via night actions is close to balanced.)