Mini Normal 1829 - Game Over

[karnos]

VOTE: Shadow_step I don't like this new avatar.

[karnos]

VOTE: Shadow_step I don't like this new avatar.

Dude, game is going and there are actually two potentially sexy wagons to be on - why you sidelining instead of sheeping me?

I voted before I finished reading the thread, give me a moment or three.

[karnos]

I'm convinced Thor is either town, or scum.

I don't like this refusal to explain from MariaR. Lets rope this.

[karnos]

VOTE: MariaR

That is L-X, where X is some number I'm too lazy to calculate. If X is 1, please don't hammer carelessly!

[karnos]

I'm lost. Too much content, not enough time to read. Other game has 2 pages of new content, this one has 18 pages after 1 day. Catching up as soon as I can.

[karnos]

VOTE: unvote

Until I finish catching up.

[karnos]

Lets aim in this direction for now.

VOTE: gerryoat

I don't get your soft fake claim BS. If you didn't believe the mason claims, as you said you didn't, then it would have been stupid to claim a PR and encourage scum to kill you at night.

I don't believe the mason claims, personally. But I don't think MariaR and tansend are both scum either. Could be one scum between them, or both town even, but lets at least give the pair a night or two to see how scum treat the claim.

[karnos]

I need to understand something here


Shadow_step
gerryoat
Transcend
karnos
MariaR
kraska77

you are all EM players that know each other yes?

What does EM stand for?

I've played with Shadow_step, Thor665, and Transcend here. I've only played IRL or on anandtech otherwise.

[karnos]

It's pretty easy to be calm in a game if you never get pressured. Were you put at L-1 early in that other scum game?

[karnos]

Both shadowstep and Karnos have contributed virtually nothing useful, and could easily be lurking scum.

I've overall been happy with how this day has gone, with the exception of these two. Time to get them sorted... Warning to both, start playing in the next 24 hours or receive my vote. Reads list would be a great start.

Hi. I usually post at work. I'll be posting a bit later, again the thread has some 9+ new pages of content to catch up on and I just finished catching up on my other less active games.

[karnos]

Okay.

I think Elyse and Michel are town. Elyse especially has come to about the same conclusion as me in 623

I'd vote transcend now if it was another player in the slot posting like he is, but... maybe this is just town transcend acting like transcend always acts, not voting him yet.

fakedit: I voted gerry because there was no reason to claim, it was obviously not an accidental claim. It might have been a harmless joking post, but we were way past RVS at that point and I didn't see any towbn motivation to start BS posting again.

[karnos]

Maybe we should just lynch transcend, because he is going to be lynchbait in lylo if he lives that long, and I don't scum killing him.

[karnos]

Yeah, I phrased that poorly.

[karnos]

Blah, it's like my timezone is just bad for this game. 6 hours and 1 new post other than mine and the mod. But then I go home from work for the night and come back to 10 new pages worth of spam.

[karnos]

Gonna get on my comp in a sec cause y'all are pissing me off for now

VOTE: karnos

chainsaw?

Lets make it real.

VOTE: transcend

[karnos]

If you think it's a chainsaw defense, why not vote Maria, since she has more support for a lynch?

I could be wrong about this being a chainsaw reaction but that doesn't mean transcend isn't scum. Transcend could be scum independently.

[karnos]

if we have a vig shoot Karnos please and if he flips green I'll self vote there is 100% mafia in Elyse/Karnos look at this back pedal

Okay Thor, I'll vote MariaR.

Get her to L-1 and I will hammer.

[karnos]

Have you ever played with Karnos before? Good logic is not his long suite

WHAT.

I think my logic is perfectly good. It's not fit to the "mafiascum meta 101", but I've seen enough games where proclaimed experts write walls and walls about reads, evidence, slips, etc, and then proceed to lynch a town player. It's all a lot of BS. Real logic requires a factual basis, most of the logical deductions that can be made in the game don't occur until day 2, when a some bit of real hard information is available.

[karnos]

And right now, logic dictates lynching transcend.

All else being equal, any lynch (outside of myself) has an equal chance of hitting scum. But lynching transcend would additionally give some interesting information about MariaR, where I don't see any other lynch giving the same bonus information.

[karnos]

Naw.

You see right now, first you have to trust that transcend is town, lets say 70% chance he is town, and *if* he is town, then you have to trust that his read is correct, lets say he is 80% chance of reading MariaR correctly... then we have an overall chance of (.7*.8) 56% that transcend is town and is correctly town reading MariaR.

OTOH, if we lynch transcend, that equation is much simpler. Instead of a chance of being town, we will know transcend is town or scum, no guesswork at all. Then if he is town, we just have to think about the chance of him reading MariaR wrong. One variable instead of two, and a higher level of accuracy.

for all i know, mariar could be bum-fucking me again like she did in one game.

But you were willing to bet the game on it by claiming mason, possibly causing real masons to out themselves? What would you say your confidence level is? 90%?

[karnos]

You suggest your logic is good, and then present a case against people who make walls, which has nothing to do with logic, and using the evidence of 'they were wrong' to attack a situation that may or may not have been based off logic.
I feel your answer here supports my stance.

Huh? A case? I'm not presenting a case, I'm presenting EVIDENCE. Logic works. Making fake logic visible to everybody and using it to look towny... well that make "work" if your goal is to look towny, but it doesn't catch scum any more often than my logic does.

Look at any of my scum games, read the scum chat. We destroy people who post read lists and explain all their logic, because they are basically telling the scum team exactly what to do to win.

It's not logical to reveal your logic in game. So I don't see how you can say I'm not a logical player.

[karnos]

Why don't you trust me then when I say he's town I'm not tring him for the mason claim but for other reasons already stated

Same reason.

I'd have to first trust that you are town, and then trust that you are reading him correctly.

[karnos]

This seems a bit off to me.

[karnos]

fakedit: I voted gerry because there was no reason to claim, it was obviously not an accidental claim. It might have been a harmless joking post, but we were way past RVS at that point and I didn't see any towbn motivation to start BS posting again.

I've seen scum do all kinds of crazy shit in RVS on this site itself, like claiming scum for example and they get a free pass because it is joke phase.
Gerry's PR slip makes zero sense as town Gerry. Like the friggin game was already in full swing the joke phase was long gone and this guy decided this fake PR slip.
Where the fuck is the town motivation behind this ?

I'd support a karnos wagon.

VOTE: Karnos

All aboard !

Does this logical progression make any sense at all? Am I being bias because shadow_step is voting me, or did he basically use the exact same argument I did for scum gerry, and then vote me, despite his argument being a copy of my own?

[karnos]

Yeah, after forther review I see no reason to move my vote. Shadow_step increases in scum level by 50dkp, but transcend's slot is still scummy after the replace.

Sorry, the fake masonry is a big deal. It wasn't an obvious joke and it had a lot of potentially to seriously hurt town via real mason CC or by reading Maria wrong.

[karnos]

Scum me could of prob flipped to the giga wagon if I felt like it because giga was offering herself on a plate and that's prob the play I would of went for but now I feel content with your lynch

lolwut? How in the world can u EVER vote giga this game? That'd be a scumclaim.

Whats this "giga is obv town" thing that you have going? Did you forget where she implied fake claiming mason, and lying about the claim is towny?

I also don't like the ascetic claim, never seen the role used before, seems like a convenient claim for a scum player to fall back on to create doubt.

[karnos]

Whats this "giga is obv town" thing that you have going?

I have a "giga is obv town" thing going?

I misread thinking you meant how could anyone vote giga without it being a scum claim.

durh, I see you were specifically talking about Maria. Never mind, sometimes I am dumb.

[karnos]

I also don't like the ascetic claim, never seen the role used before, seems like a convenient claim for a scum player to fall back on to create doubt.

That's silly - you can't fake ascetic too well, I believe it's his role. You can debate the alignment, but I don't really see the scum advantage of an open fake claim.
That's like fake claiming Dayvig - it doesn't work for long.

1- it could be mafia aligned ascetic, nothing about the role implies town.

2- if you are scum and expect to be investigated, what else can you do? claim ascetic first and at least you can put up a big fight against the cop, and require the cop to out himself if he does investigate you. compared to just getting lynched, i see that as a big win, even if the lie can be proven eventually.

[karnos]

What I'm saying is:

MARIA has treated giga as confirmed scum this entire game. Then she says that if she was scum she would have voted giga a few pages ago.

LOL that slip.

[karnos]

Reads.

Shadow_step lurks a lot. voted me. probably scum because I am biased.
Thor665 logical player, hard to read.
Elyse seems towny, came to mostly same conclusions as me regarding transcends silly gambits.
gerryoat seems scummy, but might just be the EM play style shining through. unsure.
gigabyteTroubadour I miss the crying in spansish avatar. probably scum.
karnos I'm very town.
JarJarDrinks could jarjar secretly be the sith lord? probably not.
Nero Cain this seems to be some old player everyone respects. i don't like his reads so far.
I Am Innocent obviously town, his name isn't "i am guilty"
MichelSableheart awkward town, which some players read as scum. hope he gives some good insight before he gets misslynched
MariaR wildcard, fair chance of flipping scum but not my top vote for the day
kraska77 haven't read enough of her posts to say
Blitzkrieg "

[karnos]

Thor

- Town. Like every one of his posts scream town to me. The scumhunting, the reads, the reaction to trans's shitposting. I don't agree w/ him scumreading Elyse @ all but hey, people make bad reads.

One point on this.

I've seen almost the same thing occur before. In open 640, GreyICE was very aggressively fighting me in thread, and some personal attacks occurred. Persivul asked mod to replace GreyICE, or he wanted to be replaced out himself. GreyICE was replaced. The game was mod abandoned and never finished normally, but as it came out Persivul and GreyICE were both mafia.

I'm not saying I scum read thor, because I do not, but don't assume he can't be scum with transcend's slot just because of the drama that went down. IMO, a player is just as likely to be upset about a partner's posting style as a player of opposite alignment.

[karnos]

You should move your vote.

It'll move.

[karnos]

This Maria wagon is bad
maria, Nero, iai, giga, shadow, gerry
Get on blitz or karnos with me pls

What exactly is your thinking?

I must be scum because I'm not voting MariaR, who you think is town?

INTENT TO HAMMER

Maria, make your case, claim.

[karnos]

Maria, make your case, claim.

really, a claim?

Good point, it's almost pointless to wait. I think I'll just hammer now.

[karnos]

I must be scum because I'm not voting MariaR, who you think is town?

No
Bc Your reads list is bad

How do you know? Do you have perfect knowledge of the scum in this game?

[karnos]

More like I was thinking, after lying about being a Mason is any claim going to be believable?

Not really.

[karnos]

I must be scum because I'm not voting MariaR, who you think is town?

No
Bc Your reads list is bad

How do you know? Do you have perfect knowledge of the scum in this game?

You put the entire playerlist as either null or probably something

Do YOU have perfect knowledge of anyone's alignment? Because I don't, other than myself of course.

[karnos]

unvote first then we talk

VOTE: MariaR

Caution: That is L-0 folks.

[karnos]

I h8 u karnos

Maybe a nice red flip will change your mind.

[karnos]

Thanks kankles

So.

Red flip means transcend is a silly scum buddying up with scum because he thinks nobody would EVER do that on mafiascum.net (1)
or
Red flip means transcend is silly town who read his bestie totally wrong (2)

Green flip means town!transcend correctly read his bestie and was trying his best to save a town as town (3)
or
Green flip means scum!transcend thought buddying up to a townie MariaR was a really good strategy (4)

1 would be insane if it wasn't transcend. 2 I doubt. 3 is possible in the sense of "anything is possible" but both slots were just way too random and lie happy to be useful productive town. 4 could be, and this would REALLY fit with gigabyteTroubadour turning against MariaR.

[karnos]

Whatever this wasn't fun you didn't even let me explain myself fuck this

^

karnos is now a lot scummier to me, that was a terrible hammer

Did you have some super-secret claim that would dissolve the wagon if only I waited a little bit longer?

[karnos]

Is masons having daytalk considered normal in "normal" games ?

Can you remind me why you asked this.

I think nero must be scum. This is the stupidest question I've ever seen anyone ask on mafiascum.net, no exception.

[karnos]

I thought shadow was scummy yesterday, but the speed of this wagon and the presence of scummy individuals on it makes me think he is probably town.

[karnos]

Your reads have changed drastically since yesterday?

I think giga is scum. Nero Cain might be scum as well.

[karnos]

Other than Nero, who do you think is scum karnos?
Also what do u think of blitz

Probably town, but she has been lurking or V/LA a lot so I don't have a strong read.

[karnos]

I thought shadow was scummy yesterday, but the speed of this wagon and the presence of scummy individuals on it makes me think he is probably town.

It's all town on his wagon bro.

didn't you have a scum read on transcend yesterday? You know when someone replaces in they don't get a new role pm, right?

[karnos]

You didn't explain, IAI explained. It's a fallacy to suggest that confirmed town dead players have correct reads, so you should at least use your own logic instead of just sheeping IAI.

[karnos]

VOTE: Nero Cain

[karnos]

I don't see why blitz is being scum read. I'll re-read a bit later if I have time, weekends are terrible for me. I still think nero is scum.

[karnos]

giga is scum, nero is scum, shadow *might* be scum getting bused.

There seems to be some weird idea that scum wouldn't dare bus, when it's absolutely a viable play in this game.

There also seems to be some absurd push to lynch when we still have nearly 4 days left to work with. I don't have a lot of time most weekends, and I was doing an application for an apartment over this weekend so I have been even busier than usual. I'll probably catch up tomorrow, but whether I do or not the town players on the wagon should slot the hell down instead of rushing to a lynch with little thought.

[karnos]

'slow' the hell down. slot? I don't even know how I typed that.

[karnos]

Does scum!Blitz actually WANT me lynched (Meaning that Gerry is likely town)? Or is scum!Blitz just trying to make me a counterwagon that never gets traction (meaning that blitz and gerry could viably be partners distancing)?

This is written as if the idea of scum wanting you lynched is absurd. Normally, scum loves to see town get lynched, so what are you implying?

[karnos]

VOTE: gigabyteTroubadour

[karnos]

Caught up now. Not really much to comment on. It's like everyone forgot how incredibly scummy transcend was yesterday.

I mean, so shadow's claim sounds fake. Blitz's claim sounds fake without a target. But who cares?

Transcend is the only one 100% confirmed to be lying about a claim, if a fake claim is a scum tell than giga's slot wins by far.

I think Nero Cain is scum #2, just read his iso from start. He asks a ton of questions to look busy but virtually zero followup on them, like he didn't really care about the answer he just wanted to look like a good busy town. But I don't see support for a wagon there, we'll have to do giga first.

[karnos]

I don't think I've ever seen a person sit @ L-1 for such a long time w/o a hammer or a single unvote.

Scum aren't busing scum!titus because it's too late to do it, or scum are already voting town!titus and expect town to eventually hammer.

[karnos]

Maybe all 3 are scum.

[karnos]

Is future!shadow_step played by a different actor? Why wouldn't you be able to predict who you will hammer? Are you that indecisive?

[karnos]

Is future!shadow_step played by a different actor? Why wouldn't you be able to predict who you will hammer? Are you that indecisive?

Why are you answering for JJ before he even replies?

Did you really need clarification? It was an obvious question and you are still dodging it.

BTW, I was asking you a question, I wasn't answering one.

[karnos]

VOTE: Karnos

life is getting a bit out of control for me. if titus can't get lynched, then this is the alternative that will likely flip scum. if the vig, if there is one, does not shoot me tomorrow (they didn't shoot me when i requested to be shot yesterday so i doubt there is one), i'll respond to whatever points/discussion i need to tomorrow (in-game). don't dismiss what titus says if she is town, I agree with her speculation in that there are likely more prs, probably not a vig but I shouldn't be counted as a pr, and 4 prs is not unreasonable.

i'll formally announce a v/la once i have a better idea of how much time i'll have in the future, sorry.

Caught scum getting desperate.

[karnos]

Transcend is the only one 100% confirmed to be lying about a claim

Well not the ONLY one. Remember maria?

sure, if you are going to include people who are not in this game, there are other people who have lied about a claim and then admitted as much.

Of the players in this game, who could be lynched, transcend slot has lied and admitted to said lie.

[karnos]

How does this make sense?

If he's scum

then right now his best chance is getting blitz lynched who is already @ L-1 (assuming they aren't BOTH scum). Instead he derails the wagon and hopes that you get lynched instead?

Like he can't know how much support would be there for ur lynch but he knows that about half the town wants to lynch blitz. I'd think him switching off blitz @ this point would be the WORST decision

for scum right now

.

Your post doesn't make sense. Whether he is town or scum, the above is true. It's not like town!giga would benefit from being lynched today, so the exact same argument applies. You are acting like it's a stupid switch as scum, so that proves he is town. But actually it's also a stupid move as town to switch wagons right here, the change is NAI.

It just indicates desperation.

[karnos]

Giga what are you doinggggģ
Get back on Titus she's scum

Word.

@giga. If thor shows up and votes U over blitz then I'll happily wagon karnos w/ u.

I can't trust your read on blitz when you are reading me so wrong.

[karnos]

If blitz flips town, we lynch giga tomorrow.

4 players /agree and I'll hammer.

I think it's stupid to kill town like this but I'll go with this compromise.

[karnos]

Like can you honestly look at her last last few pages and go "yeah this is just crazy town"

Did you read any of transcend's play on day 1? Can you honestly say that was lower on the crazy scale without your nose growing longer?

[karnos]

I think she's telling the truth about being a doc, she's just not a town one.

If a vig claims, then I could *maybe* believe that. Why would there be a mafia doc without anything to protect from?

[karnos]

@Karnos: no need to rush. Please give Thor a chance to weigh in first.

I find it strange that you call me scum in one post and then make a request like this in the next.

[karnos]

Ah but if there is a vig he needs to claim, and claim his target. Scum doctor titus would have had to actually had a successful protect, meaning the vig kill attempt was on scum. By coming out, the vig claim would nail titus now and the targeted scum tomorrow, it's an obvious pro-town move.

[karnos]

I see no reason why a town vig would be holding back at this point. Much more likely titus is a town doctor or not a doctor at all.

[karnos]

That was hammer wasn't it?

I hope I was reading titus wrong. Blah. I'm going to be extremely upset if giga is scum and you fools are letting obvious scum live because... why?

[karnos]

I wish I posted this earlier, but those town reading giga, how do you accept these reactions?

Day 1, after I hammered MariaR:

Thanks kankles

A few hours later, giga's next post:

Whatever this wasn't fun you didn't even let me explain myself fuck this

^

karnos is now a lot scummier to me, that was a terrible hammer

How does that even work? One minute thanking me for the hammer, the next calling it a terrible hammer. If titus is town, we MUST lynch giga tomorrow. If titus is scum, we porobably should still lynch giga tomorrow.

[karnos]

Yeah I don't think anyone caught the "sarcasm".

[karnos]

alright i can see now why jar was positive shadow is scum
neapolitan is redundant when there's a gunsmith around

VOTE: shadow

You know, I don't disagree with this logic at all.
VOTE: shadow_step

[karnos]

if shadow is scum, that doesn't mean giga isn't.

NC was also high on my scumdar based on his early day 1 play, seemed like a lot of fake scumhunting.

Looking at titus last few comments, makes me wonder if she was saying that because she was getting bused. shadow was off the wagon, but maybe the 3rd scum was on it- giga or nero.

[karnos]

so shadow, what is your result?

[karnos]

[quote="In post 1976
Giga is unlikely to be scum.[/quote]

Why do you keep saying that?

If transcend was scum, he knew maria was town and a safe fake mason partner. If he was town, he didn't know that, and it would have been suicidal to partner up as a fake mason with someone who could well be scum.

Transcend slot makes the most sense as scum, and it doesn't change alignment when he replaced out.

[karnos]

kraska77, i am assuming the result on you is accurate. remember that only proves he is the claimed role, it doesn't mean shit about his alignment. scum vanilla cops are a thing.

[karnos]

Shadow:

"There are three variations of Vanilla Cop:
"Vanilla" results are given for any role that doesn't have any individual powers (e.g., Vanilla Townie, Mafia Goon, a Serial Killer with no other powers); "Not Vanilla" results are given on all others.
"Vanilla" results are given only for Vanilla Townies; "Not Vanilla" is given for all other roles, including Mafia Goons. (This is sometimes called a Neapolitan.)
"Vanilla" results are given for any role that has the word Vanilla in it (including other Vanilla Cops).
Normal Guidelines"

Which one are you? Does your role PM say goons will come back as vanilla, or is it clear that only VT comes back as vanilla?

[karnos]

@karnos i trust my read on him from days 1 and 2 though
and im glad i wasnt wrong about gerry. his interactions with titus looked like titus was setting him up to be a sitting duck day 3
interactions between you and titus looked strained

I don't trust your read on him, because your read on me is wrong. There is something wrong with your reading device.

Look, lets speed this up. I'm sick of playing with terrible town who scum read me because I don't follow conventionally meta.

If I flip town, will you lynch giga tomorrow?

i'll just vote self and we can get this game on and I won't have to deal with this sorta of BS.

[karnos]

Does that make a lot of sense to you? Town reading a scum partner who is sitting at L-1? Do you see that often?

I've never done that. Feel free to go through my past games, I typically bus my partner or even if I am not trying to bus I am not stupid enough resist an obvious lynch.

[karnos]

1986

[karnos]

@karnos i trust my read on him from days 1 and 2 though

I think I misread the above. I thought you meant giga, but I guess you were talking about shadow? not a big difference, but I think giga is the more likely scum of the two.

I'll admit I've been a bit lazy, I should go back and re-read day 1 interactions based on knowing blitz and gerry's alignments, might help determine the other scum.

[karnos]

Just a couple pages into re-reading.

Spoiler: holy crap this makes transcend slot look like scum with blitz

this wagon sucks

Why do you town read Blitz?

I don't

But the way she's been wagoned is dumb.

We cannot ascertain whether the vote that Blitz made was her being scum strengthening the BW to achieve a ML or town applying pressure to get the game going.

IT'S THE REASONS HE VOTED BLITZ. THEY DON'T LOOK GENUINE. IT CAN BE A BUS, IT CAN BE HIM VOTING TOWN. BLITZ'S ALIGNMENT ISN'T CONFIRMED FROM THIS.

[karnos]

Okay game solved:

VOTE: Nero Cain

VOTE: gigabyteTroubadour

Both soft defended blitz early in the thread, and both have acted scummy besides that. I have to do some work so I can't really read through the entire thread right now, and weekends are typically low activity time for me, but if I have some extra time I'll see if I can do the full re-read.

[karnos]

Yeah, so by PoE I am not scum reading shadow right now.

[karnos]

wow that was disappointing
read the part of blitz's iso where thor was going to replace out

Do you read my comments in that part of the thread? Persivul did the same thing to GreyICE, and greyICE was replaced (just like transcend), and in the end it was revealed Persivul & GreyICE were both scum.

[karnos]

Read this page of Open 640:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=225

Perisvul and GreyICE were both aligned as scum.

I think it closely mirrors the interaction between blitz getting sick of transcend's personal attacks and pointing them out to the mod. I certainly don't think those actions rule out a blitz|transcend scum team.

[karnos]

I'm also struggling to find a partner besides Karnos, I think the wagon distribution is more likely 2-off-1-on, if not everyone being off it.

Are you saying there are 4 scum? Assuming 3 scum, as normal for this size game, there could have been 1-off 1-on. I don't know why you would suggest there are 4 scum, it would be very abnormal for a game of this size.

[karnos]

Alright I'm tired of wasting time, the scum and a few towny looking scum want to lynch me, go for it.

VOTE: karnos

Just remember after I flip, giga|nero|shadow is the pool for real scum.

[karnos]

claim Karnos

When I flip you will get my role. No point debating it now, just note my reads.

[karnos]

Actually it means my reads are probably dead wrong, so scum are happy to lynch me now.

But whatever. I can't debate "i wanna lynch karnos". If people want to play like town and give reasons why I am scum, I'll debate them, but apparently logic is not a part of this particular game.

[karnos]

just a comment: titus has a well-established meta of never bussing her partners, yet she was doing everything she could to ensure I could get lynched. Why is she attempting to bus this time?

serious posts coming when i come home

Counter comment: if you look at my meta, you will find I bus all the time. You can't pick and choose pieces of meta to use to fit your argument and ignore everything else. ,

[karnos]

What about your shit hammer on Maria

or

your townreading scum

why are we stupid for thinking you could be scum doing those things?

How was it a shit hammer? There was less than 24 hours left, she already claimed, unclaimed, reclaimed, what else were we waiting for? Would you think I was more town if I let the day end in a no lynch?

[karnos]

blitz read was the same as my kraska read. Am I secretly aligned with kraska too?

[karnos]

Idk, it seemed lulz and self preserving.

If you can't laugh at the game, you aren't having fun, you shouldn't be playing.

And wtf does self preserving mean? You think town!me wouldn't hammer likely scum maria to save myself?

[karnos]

Voting self is bad play, but so is lynching someone without giving any reasons for it. I don't have time to catchup now. If you think that makes me scum, go ahead and hammer. I'll read through sometime tomorrow and offer a defense if there are any actual specific accusations against me.

But if it's just stupid BS like "well I think he is scum" or "i like the idea of a karnos lynch" I can't do anything to argue with that.

I'm sure there are scum voting me, but there are town as well. If you are town, think about why I'm scum and let me know please.

[karnos]

"I don't have time to catchup now" - I didn't read the arguments for or against mass claiming. I can't read them now, about to fall asleep.

I'm a VT.

UNVOTE:

[karnos]

reading over the last few days now.

[karnos]

like literally as soon as i saw that post (and thanked karnos for the hammer (sarcastically )) karnos shot down from a nullread into scum territory in my reads.

This was pre flip and you were on the wagon too. If you didn't think maria was scum, why the hell were you voting her?

You knew she was town because you are scum. If you were actually town, you wouldn't be upset about a hammer on your scum read, and if you were actually town, you wouldn't be voting your town read.

[karnos]

To me, there's something really deceptive about giving a readlist with low-information and not doing it in a Ranger-style or something. When you look at the post in his ISO, it looks like he's providing reasons for his reads, but in reality you get a bunch of nullreads and filler.

The point of low-information readlists is to provide a

what

and create a discussion topic. If you say, show you have a controversial read, you give people the opportunity to press upon the read and ask you about it. That's not at all what I saw from Karnos's readlist. Instead, it tried to look like a high-information readlist and answer both a

what

question and a

how

question, except without actually doing it. I know Karnos isn't a complete newbie and if he were to write a readlist, I would have expect him to not give a bunch of nullreads with nonexistent reasoning EOD1... Again, it looks like fluff to make an ISO look better.

This is scum logic. Attacking my "poor" read list, while other players haven't posted any read lists at all? This is really such BS logic as well, town who don't have 100% solid reads day 1 are attacked. OTOH scum who can safely commit to a few town reads because, DUH, they have perfect knowledge of who is town, are able to post in a way that somehow looks more "town" than the town players because of backwards logic like the above used by giga. Yes, my reads were loaded with "null". Day one, no special knowledge, no secret mason conclave, no innocent villagers, I absolutely won't have any strong reads the vast majority of games. Occasionally there is some crazy slip that makes someone obviously scum, but outside that my reads day one will be pretty flimsy. As well, click my wiki link. Nothings been edited recently. It's a big part of my philosophy that sharing all reads constantly is a net-negative. I play the same way in every game as town. Again you like to use meta when it favors you and ignore it otherwise. I could show you several games where I am reluctant to give detailed reads and I flip as town, and I could also show you a game or two where I gave constant updated reads with details of every player in the game where I flipped as scum. It's vastly easier to make up a solid read list as scum.

[karnos]

just a comment: titus has a well-established meta of never bussing her partners, yet she was doing everything she could to ensure I could get lynched. Why is she attempting to bus this time?

blitz!=titus.

Same player, but there is probably a reason to use an alt. Maybe titus wanted to change up her meta, and to avoid going into games with bias from the start she created a new account.

In any case, I think the meta argument, especially when coming from the person who would be cleared based on the argument, should be taken with a grain of salt.

[karnos]

blitz read was the same as my kraska read. Am I secretly aligned with kraska too?

So, in your reads list from d1 you put a " next to her name and that was all. And now you are claiming that it was the same as kraska as I was supposed to know that?


Yes, you were supposed to know it. It's a common notation, I think most people are familiar with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditto_mark

You think town!me wouldn't hammer likely scum maria to save myself?

I think you regardless of alignment would hammer Maria. There was also the fact that kraska was still campaigning for a Blitz wagon and maybe you wanted to hurry up and hammer Maria so there's no chance a Blitz deadline wagon pops up.

I agree it should be NAI. Yet it's the

only thing

used to build the "scum karnos" case. There is really nothing else people are complaining about except the hammer, which I did as town.

Also, it was a Friday IIRC, with some 14 hours till deadline. Knowing my lack of time to play over the weekend, I wanted to hammer while I was fully caught up and able to play the game rather than risk it going to no lynch.

[karnos]

Bleh, screwed up the quotes above.

Regarding the " mark:

Yes, you were supposed to know it. It's a common notation, I think most people are familiar with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditto_mark

[karnos]

i feel like town deserves to know this

i wasn't scumreading karnos D1 because of a game that was ongoing at the time. There, Karnos felt a lot more slimey and manipulative than he is here (where he seems more useless and close-minded), but I can't honestly townread him, so I put him at null. With a lot of obvtown yesterday and karnos's hesitation to join my wagon at first, it made sense that he was a Blitz buddy but I wasn't as sure about him as I was with Gerry (who flipped town). And now that 646 is over, I can't help but acknowledge that Karnos is responding to pressure a lot differently there than he is here. There has to be a reason...

For the record, I think only possible teams are Elyse/Shadow, Thor/Shadow, and Thor/Karnos so? Leaning towards Thor/Karnos atm. Elyse/Karnos is technically possible but very unlikely considering Shadow's result on her... Pretty much ensures that Karnos fakeclaimed vanilla as a Doctor or doctor encryptor or something, which seems unlikely.

Kraska, Nero, and Michel are all super obviously town. I know I'm town for a fact. So PoE dictates that the pool

has

to be out of those four, and Elyse/Thor doesn't feel like SvS for sure. Haven't thought much about Shadow/Karnos but I can't really see it. Thoughts?

karnos

, srs question: you

are

an ISTP right...? like i remember you took the quiz last game but does that personality type suit you in your opinion? this is a very important question in judging your alignment.

That sounds right, but I'm not going to take the quiz again now to confirm. You can lookup the old game the same as I could.

I think it's giga and shadow. Giga was repeatedly defending shadow, but then here seems to be ready to bus him, as shadow is in several of the potential scum teams listed.

[karnos]

Okay. Finished reading.

I had a strong suspicious of a giga/shadow scum team at the start, and giga repeatedly defended shadow, making me even more confident of it. Then suddenly giga turned on shadow, put him as a major potential scum, and then voted him.

Scum protecting scum, and then realizing it was a losing preposition because after my lynch, I flip town, they both incriminated and lose. So giga decided to switch to a bus strategy.

VOTE: shadow

The only nagging doubt I have is that on the offchance shadow is town, he could actually clear me. But scum would obviously kill him as a nightkill if that was the case, leaving my alignment in doubt, and putting town in a messy situation on day 4. Best play is to roll the dice and lynch shadow.

[karnos]

you hammered before she had the chance to claim or give last words?? i'm not the only person on the wagon that thought the hammer was bad, don't single me out just because you are confbiasing on transcend being stupid.

She claimed mason, essentially, and later "unclaimed it" as a VT. Are you really thinking her 3rd attempt at a claim would offer up some new insightful information?

It was some ~15 hours till deadline, and I knew I wouldn't be very active over the weekend. Compare to Sat where people were ready to hammer me when we had a full 7 days left to deadline, and I wasn't active... talk about a double standard.

but anyway i don't think you can be scum w/ shadow and no one makes sense as your partner so i guess you're town... which kind of sucks

what do you think of nero's guilty on Shadow anyway? And what are your thoughts on Thor?

Talk like this makes me worried that shadow could be wrong. But if not shadow, who? I thought nero was acting like scum day one, but can't bluff a nightkill. Maybe he is a SK or something, but then town is in a pretty crappy position. Better to assume the game is winnable and nero is actually the vig he claims to be.

multiple players had posted readlists, wth are you on... i mean i agree that it's easier to fake reads as scum, but EoD1 you should have very few nullreads and if you have non-null reads, back them up or don't write anything.

how is my logic backwards though...? and where are you getting the assumption i'm avoiding meta when it doesn't help me?

Yes, multiple players had read lists, and multiple players did NOT have read lists. Why attack a (poor) read list rather than attacking someone who didn't post any read list at all? I feel like you are just trying to confuse the other players with this BS.

You are claiming blitz couldn't be bused because titus hates busing, but you ignore my meta where I happily bus scum and it would be totally out of character for me to hard-defend a scum partner.

[karnos]

actually this makes no sense

i've been asking for the vig to out because I thought the vig would have a guilty from D1... Scum!me already knows that the guilty is on Shadow, because I'd have to be an ascetic doctor if I were scum with Shadow. So either I'd subscribe to the roleblocker theory my partner is proposing or I would have bussed Shadow D2 because the scumteam already suspected a vig and Shadow would have had to be the target if they shot D1.

Well yeah, it makes no sense in a world where scum aren't allowed to lie about their role in the thread. Sadly scum are allowed to lie, and it's not as nonsensical as you are trying to make it look.

[karnos]

I mean you claim ascetic, the one person who could confirm your claim is shadow and he decides to NOT investigate you, seems oddly convenient.

[karnos]

I am pretty sure that the only way Nero shoots you and fails is for a buddy to protect you. So, I'm pretty sure you're scum.

Or he was roleblocked or there is a scum JK who targetted him or he is lying about targetting me because he is just cocky.

Who do I vig tonight, Karnos?

I read that as "who do I vig tonight, do i vig karnos?" not as in him asking me my opinion.

But obviously if we lynch shadow, vig giga.

5 days till deadline though, I don't think these decisions need to be made immediately.

[karnos]

why should i be attacking players who don't post readlists again..? you telling me who i ""should"" be suspecting is very reminiscent of 646 btw

Okay, this seems to be going over your head, so let me explain it as simply as possible.

Scale of 1-10. A detailed wall of a readlist with no obvious logical errors is a 10. A plain ranger style list is a 5. My list is what, maybe a 3 or 4 in your opinion?

Now, no list at all, what is that on a scale of 1-10? Is it a 10? No. Is it a 5? No. It's a 1. No read list at all is the worst possible read list in terms of sharing reads.


So the question is, if you are attacking me for having a poor read list, maybe a 3/10, why aren't you attacking the players who had no read list at all, 1/10? Are you bias against me? Or is the readlist a red herring of some sort, and you really wanted me lynched for some other reason?

[karnos]

I read that as "who do I vig tonight, do i vig karnos?" not as in him asking me my opinion.

But obviously if we lynch shadow, vig giga.

That's obviously what he meant, but that is what you got from that like WTF

NC claimed to be 2 shot vig and he is asking whether he should vig you N3.

What I got is that you were quoting nero for no obvious reason and the quote had my name in it and you were doing it while I was active posting, so it looked like you thought he was asking me and you wanted my response.

If not, then why did you quote it like that at the bottom of a post without responding to the quote?

[karnos]

"There is no consensus in regards to whether an X-Shot Vigilante loses one of its ability uses if it is Roleblocked while trying to kill someone."

[karnos]

Shots are never refunded no matter how they are lost ^^

The wiki says otherwise.

"There is no consensus in regards to whether an X-Shot Vigilante loses one of its ability uses if it is Roleblocked while trying to kill someone."

[karnos]

Okay let's just consider this for a second.
IF nero shot me and I was protected by scum doc, it means I am scum.

Consider this

6) A mafia member can only carry out his faction kill, or his individual ability, but not both.

If the scum doc protected me N1, he would protect me N2 as well.
Which means I did the kill, but only I didn't! I investigated Kraska.

Unless you are lying.

If you rolled scum, would you lie about investigating to save yourself from getting lynched?

[karnos]

VOTE: Shadow_Step

I'm still completely serious when I say that I should be vigged if not policied. My slot's a detriment to town and I don't think I'm a strong enough player to make it useful, I didn't read the game before replacing in and if I did I probably wouldn't have joined this.

It's interesting that this was said on day 1. Do you still agree giga? Do you want to be vig killed tonight, since shadow didn't cop you?

[karnos]

@Shadow "If the scum doc protected me N1, he would protect me N2 as well."

That is some pretty shallow logic.

[karnos]

but him and Kraksa/lyse would have to be scum.

Elyse claimed vt. Kraska was universally town read, and probably looked like a safe pick. Worst case, scum!shadow's gambit outs a town PR. Not a great outcome, but if he thought he was getting lynched, why not try it?

Alternatively, he did investigate, the other mafia did the kill, and there was no doc protection night 2. Could even be a restriction against protecting the same player two nights in a row, so using the doc ability was useless. Could have been a 1 shot doc, or an odd-night doc. Shadow could have been 1 shot bp and there was no doc.

If you assume shadow might lie as scum, there are dozens of possibilities.

[karnos]

@Shadow "If the scum doc protected me N1, he would protect me N2 as well."

That is some pretty shallow logic.

Doc can't self protect, you seriously expect me to be scum and my scum buddy to not protect me when I'm one of the most suspicious players with a chance of vig/sk. Like seriously?

Well. The vig didn't target you twice in a row, so in this particular game doc protecting twice in a row would have been a terrible play. Plus there are numerous possibilities where he *couldn't* protect you last night.

[karnos]

No, because I was a counterwagon pushed by scum and have helped town? To literally everyone else I'm obvious town. Might I ask why you think I was double bussing with Titus?

It was theoretically scum vs scum wagons. You could either bus one of them, or try to defend both and look like obv scum after the flip.

[karnos]

Plus there are numerous possibilities where he *couldn't* protect you last night.

Would be a pretty useless doc when one scum gets lynched then, would be pointless.

Doc is already pointless after day 2, since the vig is out of shots. Your logic is terrible.

[karnos]

why is titus bussing me though?? in your scumteam, I'd HAVE to be the doctor,

What? No. There might not be a doc. Might be 1shot bp or something, which could lead to blitz thinking a vig exists. Same logical result.

And busing isn't a sure thing. You bus a partner, but the wagon doesn't lead to a lynch, you created a ton of useful doubt and you still have your sooper valuable doc partner. It's a gambit that works when it fails too.

[karnos]

kraska & shadow is possible, sure. Kraska seems pretty towny but scum!kraska would certainly explain the insane surity of her MariaR town read when everyone else wanted to lynch her.

[karnos]

we think it's a doc because of the gunsmith... bp still has a gun

Does every game with a cop in it have a godfather?

The false positive town roles cause enough doubt already. And if you are a scum ascetic, there is that too. If scum has an ascetic, and doc, then gunsmith is almost negative utility.

[karnos]

^ And if that is true, then the scumteam is confirmed (at least from my pov) to be one of Michel/Karnos, Karnos/Thor, or Thor/Michel if Shadow is town. I don't see the downside of this.

So

Michel, Thor, and Karnos

: If shadow is town, which of the teams do you think it is? Replace your name with mine in the teams above for the possible combinations from your perspective. If you disagree with the clearing of Elyse and Kraska from a Shadow town flip, I'd like to know why. Ty~

This doesn't make sense. Shadow is being scum read for a variety of reasons, but the nail in the coffin is the intended vig kill on day 1 that didn't go through.

If shadow flips town, then nero was obviously playing a scum gambit (SK possibly) and needs to be lynched.

But shadow probably won't flip town.

[karnos]

This shouldn't be hard. if you believe nero, lynch shadow. If nero is lying, then he gets lynched tomorrow.

The question just becomes who is shadow's partner, or in the fantasy-land world where nero is scum playing a gambit, who is nero's partner?

[karnos]

I could see Thor being shadow's partner, seems like a more lurky Thor than usual, and he made some weird comments about keeping shadow alive that I find very scummy, because logically scum would just night kill shadow if we were keeping him alive to investigate people.

Nero, if you want to vig me tonight that is cool. My flip will add some weight to my reads, and I do not want there to be any chance of idiot town trying to lynch me tomorrow instead of the last scum.

[karnos]

no??

that's not how anything works??

We don't know FOR SURE that the scumteam protected Shadow, Nero could have been roleblocked. So they can BOTH be town...

Also, nero isn't a serial killer because A: That's not balanced, and B: His Gerry kill comes from a vig, no questions asked.... Gerry was literally the next lynch, so why not kill someone who is scummy enough to be a vig shot but not next-in-line to be lynched? Doesn't make sense.

also karnos he's out of shots

This is wrong on every level, really reinforces my scum read on you. Thor could be scum, but dammit how could town!giga get so many things wrong?

>We don't know FOR SURE that the scumteam protected Shadow, Nero could have been roleblocked. So they can BOTH be town...

You were arguing earlier that scum definitely has a doctor. So they have doctor and a roleblocker, and the roleblocker hit the jackpot on night 1, you think? If the scum won the lottery like that, just let them have the win. It's much more likely that shadow is just scum and it's a bit more likely that nero could be pulling a gambit.

>Also, nero isn't a serial killer because A: That's not balanced

You have no idea what is balanced or not. You don't know what roles the scum have, and you don't know what roles any of the players have. You have a few claims, but unless you have some magical power to see truth out of lies, you don't know what is real.

>B: His Gerry kill comes from a vig, no questions asked.... Gerry was literally the next lynch, so why not kill someone who is scummy enough to be a vig shot but not next-in-line to be lynched? Doesn't make sense.

Your logic doesn't make sense. A SK doesn't win with scum. SK needs to kill scummy players just the same as towny players. Gerry also allows for a vig claim gambit. I'm not saying this is likely, but if shadow is town, then yeah this is what it is probably.

>also karnos he's out of shots

Why does this BS keep getting repeated?

The wiki is clear in that it says there is no consistent rule on how that works. He might have shots because the kill was prevented.

[karnos]

karnos

find me a mini normal with 3 scum and a serial killer

ty

So you know there are 3 scum in the game? Very interesting.

Why couldn't it be 2 scum and an SK?

[karnos]

Games run in the Normal Queue should satisfy the following rules:
All games must be reviewed for balance
The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). A second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group. There should be no more than two mafia/werewolf factions, and no more than one Serial Killer.


I see nothing that forbids it.

[karnos]

I think this whole thing about me gambiting or being an SK are both weak.

I agree, which is why I'm pretty confident shadow is scum.

But if shadow flips town, what do *you* think explains his failure to die night1?

[karnos]

Karnos continued his poor performance during the rest of day 1, finding the wrong reasons to argue for the trans lynch in #860, providing a virtually empty read list in #1345, showing intent to hammer without giving reasoning in #1379, and then ignoring the various requests not to hammer. Then in #1401, he already seemed to be preparing for a maria town flip, arguing that the giga scum/maria town scenario was most likely out of the four combinations (despite just having hammered maria).

And how do you know I was wrong? The transcend/giga slot isn't town confirmed, they could be scum with shadow.

[karnos]

Thor continued keeping up his consistent good play. His townreads in #1326 are all either confirmed town or highly likely town. His consistent defense of Giga looks good now that a giga/thor scumpairing has become effectively impossible. I'm still inclined to read him as town.

Why does that make him town to you? Doesn't it make sense for scum to town read a few town, and doesn't it also make sense for scum to nightkill the highly town-read players, revealing Thor's reads as being "good"?

[karnos]

karnos are you scumreading Thor too?

By PoE, to some degree. He isn't acting scummy in the usual sense, but he isn't acting like the Thor I have seen in other games either.

[karnos]

Because everyone else is town
Michel probably town because of early interactions with blitz

Why is giga confirmed town to you? I'm trying to figure this out.

[karnos]

No lock? Is shadow loved or something?

[karnos]

Giga, what is your actual scum case on me? Please don't tell me it's entirely based on titus meta of not busing. It's really flawed reasoning to assume titus couldn't break meta while you are also assuming I will break my meta.

Either you are the last scum, or scum were smart enough to see that I was debating between you and thor so they figured killing thor would get you lynched.

[karnos]

also you didn't even scumread transcend in 646 so i have no idea how your bussing meta applies here

You picked out a game where I was lynched day 1 to prove I don't bus? Maybe my knowledge of the term is a bit off, but isn't it impossible to bus after you have been removed from the game by lynching?

If you look at my games in a less selective way, I think you will see I pretty much always vote my partner if they are going down, and often bus outright. I don't think I have ever hard-defended a scum partner in my entire history of games. Of course, maybe that is it. I'm playing the long-con. I bus my partner every single game until this game, so that I can hard-defend titus and get away with it! (And this *also* requires that titus can't be playing a similar long con: that is, she never bused so that in this game she could hard-bus and her partner would never get suspected).

You either must accept a ridiculous fantasy theory, or admit that you can't use META as a shitty excuse for a scum case on me.

Either META is a terrible argument, in which case titus might well have been bused. Or META is a good argument (it's not), and I couldn't hard defend a partner because I never do that in my meta.

[karnos]

so I figured killing thor would get you lynched.

FIXED!

Right, and it was my brilliant plan to reveal it myself, instead of simply voting giga.

I want to know why giga is town. I don't see it. Maria flipping town doesn't make transcend town! Even if titus, on an alt, is 100% against busing, that doesn't mean she has magical mind-control powers over her partners. They could still have decided to bus her against her wish. Giga's arguments don't make sense. I'm not 100% convinced giga is scum, because I don't like her nonsense arguments in other games as town, but PoE means if it's not Giga we are looking at scum michel or scum kraska, neither of which seems likely to me.

[karnos]

Then with Karnos? If you take a look at the Day 1 lynch vote count, Karnos looks scummy as fuck.

Is that really how scum looks to you?

Scum knows when scum is hammering town. Scum is careful, scum waits, scum buses partners who are absolutely going down.

No. Scum slide onto a town wagon as the 3rd or 4th voter with some crafted reason to avoid looking suspicious and then feign ignorance and anger when a town player finally hammer.

[karnos]

ok but meta isn't even my argument?

Your entire argument about titus is that titus hates busing so I am scum because I did not vote titus.

Yet when you look at me, and my actions, you suddenly have to stop using the meta argument because you know my play in this game isn't anything like my scum game.

So yeah, I guess it's not part of your argument anymore, but instead you just use META selectively, when it benefits you, and you ignore it otherwise?

And yes, I forgot elyse.

[karnos]

Me "bussing" Titus has nothing to do with Titus's scum meta, it's Titus "bussing" me that does. And the point isn't even meta, you never addressed what scum have to gain from a double bus that could very well risk their most important member.

Also stop misrepping my argument and saying it's 100% meta when it's not??

That is a meta argument. There is no other way you get town cred except but this insane theory that a titus alt is incapable of busing.

And I think I have been clear in my point: I'm not accusing you of exclusively using meta, I am accusing you of

selectively

using meta. Insofar as you claim titus is somehow completely incapable of playing against her meta, while simultaneously assuming I am playing against my scum!meta. It just doesn't add up if you are thinking logically from a town perspective.

So yeah, you aren't using 100% meta, LOL, of course not, because if you were you would be defeating your own argument. You are picking and choosing to use META where it fits your bias and ignoring it otherwise.

[karnos]

Good job fools. Now town loses because giga is scummy as hell but isn't guaranteed to be the scum. Should have lynched giga today so even if you were wrong you could at least have another chance to find scum, now you get mylo with a huge scum slot like giga clouding things up.

[karnos]

I'd lynch giga, but she will probably convince you otherwise again with BS and town loses. Alternatively giga might actually be town, in which case town loses because they couldn't lynch the scummy as hell player before mylo.

[karnos]

I'm going to be trolling the endgame thread bigtime if it turns out i was right all along and the "experienced" players all gave giga towncred for nothing.

[karnos]

lmao ok kankies

p sure that's twilight trolling so

Amazing how in twilight you called maria's town flip before it happened, yet you are getting this one wrong.

[karnos]

I think I get lynched as town every time. People should start looking at my meta. I mean, maybe I should change my playstyle, but TBH then it'll look even faker because I'll try to look like I'm playing in a style I don't like to play in. Blah.