Open 658 Making Friends and Enemies | Game Over

[mhsmith0]

*does town replace in happy dance*

[mhsmith0]

Also can someone explain why Maria is a wagon? I'd had a mild town read on her from skimming before replacing in based on my meta with her.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: mhsmith0

You know why.

Because smith GOAT and trans fears me?

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: mhsmith0

You know why.

Because smith GOAT and trans fears me?

[mhsmith0]

Oddmusic, Creature, mariaR all town leans

Oddmusic generally looks villagery
Creature basically does literally nothing as scum, see http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
MariaR seems to put actual effort into looking decent when she's scum, while she's kinda lynchbait as town (sample size of 1 each for her but w/e)

I'd have more reads but it's late and I'm tired.

[mhsmith0]

I will make a mental note on that and possibly remember.

[mhsmith0]

Hey, will read up soon I hope.

[mhsmith0]

Hello there gamma

Mhsmith, curious about those other reads.

Trans is basically null at this point
Ari is a lurksack, but I don't think I've played w him before so not sure if that's really AI or not.

I just took a two-minute skim though your newbie scum game, you seem to have a solid scum game so while there were a few things that gave me a town lean on you I should probably look at that harder.

Tojam is being completely useless (and his push on trans may be the intellectually laziest one in the game so far) but I probably need to look at his meta before saying if it's really AI or not. The volunteer to self hammer bit is bullshit but having seen Maria pull the same crap in 646 as town it's not strong scum, but if town it's atrocious play.

Sad is I think ok, a couple posts here and there suggested at least a bit of effort into sorting the game (with the caveat out possible day chat coaching)

Bk kinda blah, basically null.

I don't think I have a better idea than lynching ari or tojam but in both cases it's more because of being useless and my having some town reads so far than them being obv!scum.

I guess I'll spend some time looking at those two in more detail and see if either pops out as worse. Probably leaning tojam rn.

[mhsmith0]

I just had a thought

TJ2's vote on me was kinda awkward and he unvoted really quickly. Looks kinda like a vanity scumvote.

I just had a thought

TJ2's vote on me was kinda awkward and he unvoted really quickly. Looks kinda like a vanity scumvote.

This was my post. Sorry guys. Posted on a hydra.

Thanks for clarifying.
You were my most scummy read at the time, mostly because of your s***posting scum meta I got form Open 646.

Tojam, have you ever seen trans town game? It seems like you're basically generalizing his play style and calling it his scum game if you were just pushing for shit posting.

[mhsmith0]

maria's flake out was scummy af but will wait to see what the replacement slot has to say

UNVOTE: MariaR

How was the flake out scummy?

Hi Gamma Emerald, hopefully you don't mind playing scum.

Not at all!

bad reaction. feels like you're trying to sound sarcastic as scum

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Why would you double post a reason to unvote and then immediately find a reason to re-vote?

[mhsmith0]

So far not feeling the town word to put before !mhsmith0

Repeat after me

Town!smith
Town!smith
Town!smith

You'll get there

[mhsmith0]

Also, I did some setup reading and I feel this is important to say:
THE MASON RECRUIT SHOT HAS THE ABILITY TO BE USED AS A 1-SHOT COP.

Lol no shit

[mhsmith0]

Also, I did some setup reading and I feel this is important to say:
THE MASON RECRUIT SHOT HAS THE ABILITY TO BE USED AS A 1-SHOT COP.

Lol no shit

[mhsmith0]

Also, I did some setup reading and I feel this is important to say:
THE MASON RECRUIT SHOT HAS THE ABILITY TO BE USED AS A 1-SHOT COP.

Lol no shit

[mhsmith0]

Wtf triple post

[mhsmith0]

maria's flake out was scummy af but will wait to see what the replacement slot has to say

UNVOTE: MariaR

How was the flake out scummy?

because there was a bunch of votes on him and then he decides to request to be replaced

Hi Gamma Emerald, hopefully you don't mind playing scum.

Not at all!

bad reaction. feels like you're trying to sound sarcastic as scum

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Why would you double post a reason to unvote and then immediately find a reason to re-vote?

y does it matter? but anyway i noticed maria being replaced first and made the first post. then saw gamma's post and made my second post

It reads fake to swing it that fast. I guess that's maybe a plausible explanation but I'm skeptical.

[mhsmith0]

oh man u guys wont believe this but i didnt see that gamma was the one who replaced maria

lolz that slot is scum

Yeah I'm a bit skeptical that you didn't realize it. Otoh gamma not impressing so far.

[mhsmith0]

havent u heard

it's the era of catfishing

K fuck you
VOTE: BurgerKing
I don't want a person like this in my game.
Congratulations on becoming my first official WOTC list member

???
That seems a bit of an over-reaction. Why did bk's "she" bit piss you off THAT much? It seems annoying at most to me.

[mhsmith0]

It's disrespectful, sure, but I don't really feel like it particularly goes over the line? I'd think most if the "she" users on the site are in fact female, but it wouldn't be shocking to hear that couple weren't. Like, I'd always just use the gender pronoun someone wants (or I'll guess if they're too lazy to put one in), but idk why it's over the line for someone tobasiclaly be like "fuck it" on the issue? Especially when it's nit directed at you or a player currently in the game?

[mhsmith0]

I have heard of it, hadn't known you felt especially strongly on the subject. Still seems odd for that post in particular to set you off in such a major way.

[mhsmith0]

Scumreads
sad1492 – Hasn't posted anything yet to make me change my read
Ari – Waiting for that catchup
tojam – My vote feels well-placed

Why is my lack of catchup scummy?

Why is this the one thing you chose to comment on after your absence?

[mhsmith0]

Have you been reading the whole thread? Or did it just randomly drop you on that post?

[mhsmith0]

Red button? Lol do I not know about something useful on the forum?

[mhsmith0]

sorry about absence, got busy w election stuff. will be back tomorrow.

[mhsmith0]

Tojam flopped as an attempt to distract from better scum

Why would tojam do that? Like, if he gets flipped scum, then that's only going to create potential connections for his buddies to get outed, and condense the game since scum are going to shoot a townie tonight. have you ever seen a goon self-destruct to "protect" another goon in a mafia game D1? Like, ever?

[mhsmith0]

Post 919 is kinda out there though. I give you that. Tojam has been useless all game. How is it that he is all of a sudden distracting from the Transcend lynch possibility? Not that there ever was much of a chance of a Transcend lynch possibility since everyone just loves them some Transcend it seems. Throw out a few reads and votes and you instantly townread. Gotta love it.

919 was an absolute atrocity. What makes it more suss is

5. Mason and mafia have factional communicate that only works during the night. If for some reason they are not locked when day begins, you may not talk in them.

since I'd think with day talk someone would have actually coached him not to do something that horrible. Probably need to re-read him, but my recollection from modding him was that he wasn't a crazy derpy villager.

[mhsmith0]

Tojam flopped as an attempt to distract from better scum

Why would tojam do that? Like, if he gets flipped scum, then that's only going to create potential connections for his buddies to get outed, and condense the game since scum are going to shoot a townie tonight. have you ever seen a goon self-destruct to "protect" another goon in a mafia game D1? Like, ever?

If the buddies were good it would make sense

No it wouldn't. You're talking about a scum self-destructing, getting lynched, and then it's easier to look at what he did and why he did it.

Again, have you EVER seen scum do this? Even once?

[mhsmith0]

I mean, I've seen scum let themselves be bussed for town credit; that certainly happens. But your theory is he imploded all on his own, just to distract everybody?

[mhsmith0]

I want to re-read to see if there's any reason to believe this is just lynchbait instead of scum. I'll weigh in more substantively tomorrow. Sorry for being slow on things, I'm just kind of backed up right now.

[mhsmith0]

I have been, yes. I'll catch up on this one later today.

[mhsmith0]

Smiths play has indeed been pretty lacking this game. I'm a bit curious why you think it's necessarily scum-indicative, given that there was a scum lynch on d1. Is your theory that my lack of presence was what allowed the scum lynch to go through? Or is it more a simple "eh screw it smith usually has more WIM than he's shown, therefore he's scum"?

[mhsmith0]

Sure. But inactivity is in and of itself a relatively weak case. At any rate, as noted earlier I'll be on in earnest tonight.

[mhsmith0]

Read List based on Gamma's ISO

Town: Transcend, Burger King

Town Lean: Tojam, Dunn

Scum: Flubber

I will read up on some people more and post a better read list.

What in particular from Gamma ISO made you think Trans/Burger town and Flubber wolf? And did you also look through MariaR for spew?

[mhsmith0]

You know

I'm not sure if I'll ever understand what the point of that night kill was

I was gonna park my vote on him, then prodge all day.

VOTE: mhsmith0

You, of all people in this game, should by now come to realize that "shitty night kill" = "smith didn't do it". So either this was a valid attempt at mason hunting that simply missed, or I didn't make the kill. If, in your mind, Aubrey had no realistic mason equity (and in your mind was a scumspect to boot), then you should presume I'd have taken a more thoughtful shot.

Arguing that I'm a wolf, AND that the kill was shitty, should in your mind not compute. Which makes me wonder why you're comfortable parking your vote on me here.

[mhsmith0]

Gamma replaced Maria. So that's a combined scum slot.

[mhsmith0]

Aubrey kill does not point to scum!me

Please go ahead and take a trip to GFYS Land.

It fairly obviously does given 990-992, the question is if it's an indication that you're a wolf or if it's a frame job. But pretending like it in no way points to you is

[mhsmith0]

I'm late, it's tired, so I've just been doing some mechanical shit

Spoiler: interactions

From MR
1) Transcend 137 306 307
2) Creature 40 64 80 84 310
3) Burgerking
4) Dunnstral Aristophanes
5) BK201
6) sad1492
9) mhsmith0 MiniDeathStar 50
10) oddmusic 69
11) Secret Agent Jin
12) Flubbernugget doomfeathers 70
13) tojam2

To MR
1) Transcend 136 138 305
2) Creature 33 65 78 309
3) Burgerking
4) Dunnstral Aristophanes
5) BK201 410
6) sad1492
9) mhsmith0 MiniDeathStar 42
10) oddmusic 66
11) Secret Agent Jin 89
12) Flubbernugget doomfeathers 68 77 79 87
13) tojam2

From Gamma
1) Transcend 645 648 675 951 952 953 955 960
2) Creature 511
3) Burgerking 518
4) Dunnstral Aristophanes 876 967
5) BK201
6) sad1492
9) mhsmith0 MiniDeathStar 538 540 936 939 941
10) oddmusic
11) Secret Agent Jin
12) Flubbernugget doomfeathers 834
13) tojam2 996

To Gamma
1) Transcend 646 649 954 958
2) Creature 510
3) Burgerking 517
4) Dunnstral Aristophanes 874
5) BK201
6) sad1492
9) mhsmith0 MiniDeathStar 506 537 539 542 935 938 940
10) oddmusic
11) Secret Agent Jin
12) Flubbernugget doomfeathers 806
13) tojam2 994

To/From MariaR:
Creature is very likely town given scale of interactions. Theoretically trans looks better from the number of interactions but I'm a bit hesitant to give much credit there given their combined history and presumed chemistry. Doomfeathers had a relatively high number of interactions but I don't know that I'd call any of them GOOD. And everyone else has a real dearth.

To/From Gamma:
Trans has a LOT of back and forth (ditto me). I'd be a bit more inclined to give Trans credit here given (I think) lack of history between them. Most others barely talked to Gamma or had gamma talk to them, so hard to really say how anyone stuck out.

[mhsmith0]

And looking at VC data:

Spoiler: VC's

VC 1.2 Trans at 4
Transcend (L-3): Flubbernugget , oddmusic, Creature, Secret Agent Jin
mhsmith0 (L-5): tojam2, Transcend
Flubbernugget (L-5): mhsmith0,

Gamma Emerald

Aristophanes (L-6):

Aubrey

Not voting: Burgerking, Aristophanes, BK201, and sad1492

VC 1.3 Trans back down to 3
Transcend (L-4): oddmusic, Secret Agent Jin,

Aubrey

Flubbernugget (L-5): mhsmith0,

Gamma Emerald

Aristophanes (L-5): Flubbernugget , Creature
mhsmith0 (L-6): tojam2

Aubrey

(L-6): Transcend

Not voting: Burgerking, Aristophanes, BK201, and sad1492

VC 1.4 - competing 3-vote wagons
Aristophanes (L-4): Flubbernugget , oddmusic, BK201
Transcend (L-4): Secret Agent Jin,

Aubrey

, mhsmith0
mhsmith0 (L-5): tojam2, Transcend

Aubrey

(L-6): Creature
Flubbernugget (L-6):

Gamma Emerald

tojam2 (L-6): sad1492

Not voting: Burgerking, and Aristophanes

VC 1.7 Maria(Gamma) up to 4

Gamma Emerald

(L-3): Burgerking, sad1492, Creature,

Aubrey

Aristophanes (L-5): Flubbernugget , BK201
tojam2 (L-5): oddmusic, Secret Agent Jin
Transcend (L-6): tojam2

Aubrey

(L-6): Transcend

Not voting: mhsmith0,

Gamma Emerald

, and Aristophanes

VC 1.8 Maria wagon loses steam, Ari up to 3
Aristophanes (L-4): Flubbernugget , BK201, Creature

Gamma Emerald

(L-5): Burgerking, sad1492
tojam2 (L-5): oddmusic, Secret Agent Jin
sad1492 (L-6): mhsmith0

Aubrey

(L-6): Transcend
Transcend (L-6):

Aubrey

Not voting:

Gamma Emerald

, tojam2, and Aristophanes

VC 1.94 tojam up to 4
tojam2 (L-3): oddmusic, Secret Agent Jin,

Aubrey

, sad1492

Gamma Emerald

(L-3): BK201, Transcend, Creature, Dunnstral
sad1492 (L-5): mhsmith0, tojam2
Transcend (L-6):

Gamma Emerald

BK201 (L-6): Burgerking
Burgerking (L-6): Flubbernugget

Not voting:

VC 1.95 Gamma up to 4

Gamma Emerald

(L-3): Transcend, Creature, Dunnstral, tojam2
tojam2 (L-4): oddmusic, Secret Agent Jin, sad1492
Transcend (L-5):

Aubrey

,

Gamma Emerald

Burgerking (L-5): Flubbernugget, BK201
Flubbernugget (L-6): Burgerking
sad1492 (L-6): mhsmith0

Not voting:

VC Final

Gamma Emerald

(Lynched): Creature, Dunnstral, tojam2, Burgerking, sad1492, Transcend, Secret Agent Jin
Transcend (L-5):

Aubrey

,

Gamma Emerald

Burgerking (L-5): Flubbernugget, BK201
tojam2 (L-6): oddmusic
sad1492 (L-6): mhsmith0

Not voting:

Notes:
1) It'd be a bit weird for my predecssor and Maria (original version of Gamma) to have been on Flubbernugget together, unless you believe there was an intentional bunching votes strategy, or that this represented an attempt to create a counter to scum #3 (in this case would be Transcend). Obviously grain of salt, self-defense etc., but that pops up as generically unusual activity for scum.

2) It's kind of interesting that Trans was the first big wagon, and then the air slowly leaked out of it, and then things were kind of blah for a while. If Trans is a wolf then he was almost certainly being bussed; otherwise I feel like it's weird for him to just hang around in the 3 vote stage for a while without a more meaningful effort/push to get a counter wagon going.

3) Maria (Gamma) becoming a big wagon all of a sudden was also kind of interesting, and then the air popped out of it, and then all of a sudden it came back again. Also notable that Burgerking hopped off after VC 1.8 and never got back on even when the wagon gained steam, while Creature/Transcend were on again, off again on Maria/Gamma. On a pure VCA basis there's some suspicion in my mind on Creature/Transcend, but given the scale of the interactions between them and MR/Gamma, I think that has a realistic chance of just being coincidence. At the least I really don't think them both is any kind of reasonable likelihood.

4) Maria wagon got steam, then dropped back a bit, and then Gamma wagon got steam without any real strong counter efforts taking hold. I'd say there was at least one busser essentially always, and kind of wonder if there might have been two. I think I'm most suspicious of sad/SAJ here, given how they were on the tojam counter-wagon (the last one to really have any kind of a reasonable shot of going through instead of Gamma) but ended up on Gamma anyway. Probably need to re-read their vote movements more carefully to get much of an opinion there.

TLDR: Creature still town. Not at all sure on Trans. Probably a wolf in sad/SAJ.

[mhsmith0]

Well with Trans and Burger, Gamma attacked them all throughout D1. I mean, a lot meaning to me that they are town. If they were scum, i could see Gamma soft attacking on them or voting them when a wagon started but Gamma even challenged them when there was no reason to.
For Flubber, he seems to have a few posts wherein he interacts with him but never really says too much stuff to Flubber that could be construed as buddying. Gamma also doesnt interact with Flubber too much. It looks to me like Gamma was trying to keeo his distance so that a line couldn't be drawn between them, that screams scummy to me.
I have not looked into Maria too much, who replaced her?

I don't really understand where you're going wrt Flubber. By and large, Gamma was interacting with relatively few slots in his time D1; what makes Flubber stand out in particular in that regard?

Also, what makes you think that Gamma/Burgerking was non-plausible theater? I don't think there was ever any danger of Burgerking getting lynched, and with Gamma being in some trouble, having a "fuck you" sort of back and forth seems like an realistic way to create distance without actually doing anything to put him in danger of getting lynched.

[mhsmith0]

Lastly notice how Transcend never tries to sell me onto the gamma wagon, and never tries to refute anything that I brought forward for Gamma. Instead he just ties me and smith to gamma and carries on his merry way. This isn't pro town what so ever. What it seems like to me is a scum trying to seem townie by trying to get townies not to vote for one player who is easy lynchbait (who could very well be scum) and vote for another.

Mhsmith says he doesn't remember Gamma being a derpy villager. While I wouldn't use those words, the one game I have played with gamma he did have some odd reads and made choices that ultimately led to him being townie lynchbait day one. Hence why I'm not as bothered by gamma.

On another note why would scum transcend try so hard to tie Smith and I to gamma. Is this a townie trying to actually figure out the game or is the scum hard busting his own partner on day one in order to earn stronger town credit and have townies take the fall post flip.

Actually In post 990, it actually doesn't make sense for scum Transcend to push for a link between smith gamma and I by trying to get the town to lynch gamma if he knows he is town. Instead the smarter scum play would be to say the lot of us are scummy to him, but not exactly sure if we are all connected so that he would have an out.

991 is the stronger possibility in attempting to assess his slot.

Aubreys last posts of substance on d1. And yeah, it's obviously possible someone would shoot a non mason just for the sake of framing transcend, but the question I have is WHY would anyone bother. Like, if you're a wolf and trans isn't, then it's realistic that trans is a mason or about to be recruited as one, which means that you're sacrificing the potential to mow down masons (not to mention the possibility you could get SUPER lucky and shoot one mason while the other fails to recruit and dies), for the sake of boosting your odds of getting just ONE mislynch in a game where you need four.

So if that was a framing kill... that doesn't make any sense. If it was trans shooting someone who went after him, that makes a lot more sense.

VOTE: transcend

[mhsmith0]

The mason is an evil faction that wins when all mafia goons are eliminated.

Io going full bastard mod, awesome

[mhsmith0]

Gamma flipped goon

People are talking about wolves but the setup only mentions goons. I am confused

I tend to refer to mafia as wolves interchangeably. I think that's the source of your confusion.

[mhsmith0]

Flubber just flipped wolf in a game that just ended

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p8492271

I may dig into that some point in the next few days.

[mhsmith0]

I REALLY think that Transcend is indeed being framed. I mean, either he is being framed or he isnt. If Transcend was scum then why would he kill aubrey and bring tons of suspicion on himself. Its clear to me that Transcend is not scum.

And why would some other theoretical scum bother to make a framing kill instead of trying to target masons as is mechancially superior?

1) Trans makes a seemingly bad shot that mainly points to him
2) Someone else makes a bad shot that points to trans, gives masons more time to game solve collectively at night, and potentially drive the board going forward, in exchange for getting an easier mislynch on day 2.

#1 is a plausible thing, and arguing against it is largely making a WIFOM case
#2 is just bizarre, and very few scum would actually do that sort of thing

Therefore trans is probably just scum.

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, that intellectually super lazy defense in 1115 makes SAJ a pretty acceptable counter-wagon if anyone is town-reading trans.

"I mean, either he is being framed or he isnt. "
...
"Its clear to me that Transcend is not scum."

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw trans was town in a mini normal that just ended
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Some examples of questions that seem to be better than anything he's asked this game:

Spoiler:

Okay moving along--

If you think me and Creature are scum, why are you voting Creature when I have more momentum than him?

If you tr me, wouldn't you rather my vote NOT be on you?

You have the same two scum leans as me but idk how you can read infinity numbers or alpaca yet

Transcend looks bad. I get the impression he's trying his hardest to appear to not be invested in the game.

#nevergonnatownreadmeagain

but honestly JJD what gives you that impression? I'm the only one who's given a reads list, and I've posted the most. Clearly I'm invested in this game????

[mhsmith0]

Transcend aren't people pissed cause you won't say why mini is scum for you? Why not give the people what they want!

@trans: you proclaimed this to be a scum claim ("HARD" scum claim) in 140. Please explain how exactly it was a scum claim.

[mhsmith0]

OK Trans, the night kill very very obviously points to you (both to get someone off your back and because you've apparently established a meta of not so good night kills). So pretending as if it somehow doesn't is pretty obvious bullshit. As far as lynching a wolf goes, you and like half the board were on that. You were also on Aubrey (who flipped town) a large chunk of D1, you weren't particularly on the MariaR wagon the first time it got going, and only really made a hard push on Gamma AFTER he made the terrible 919 (and that's a pretty decent spot for a buddy to basically say "fuck it I'm bussing your shitty ass" to himself). So I don't see how you being on the Gamma wagon is especially clearing, and the NK does point to you. So you can be pissy about being pushed and yell at people, or you can try to solve. Your call.

[mhsmith0]

What were you voting him for?

[mhsmith0]

I'll get that to you in a bit but I cannot do that while all these votes are on me

I appreciate the unvote though

Pedit: smith is scum

Smith is a wolf because he's pushing on me? Like, is that your argument? Because the kill DID point to you, you DID seem to be closer to your scum meta than your town meta, and I'm pretty skeptical that you'd actually be so un-self-aware as to not see that there's a reasonable case on you at this point.

PS I'd laugh my ass off it if was as easy as Trans/SAJ and the back and forth about the hammer vote (which basically went nowhere) was just shitty distancing.

[mhsmith0]

It's the reason you're pushing on me

Only for nka and not anything I've done in this game

You're a better player than this and in 646 while you did use a bit of mka to get me lynched, you had so much more in your case from my game. And in this one you have nothing that I've done in game to support your vote. So yes. Hang me all you want. I'll schedule your appointment with Dr. Rope for tomorrow.

That's not really true though. Obviously NKA is part of it (and "why the fuck would anyone shoot a non mason just to frame trans" is a big part of that as well), but I've also been addressing the stuff you've done.

1) Your Aubrey push (you've raged against getting pushed but haven't bothered to answer 1121 - calling 140 meaningfully wolfy is a pretty big stretch, that was a null post at worst)

2) Lack of interesting questions

3) The points Aubrey raised in 990-992

4) VCA data in 1095: just from vote movement (on MariaR, off, then eventually back on Gamma) seems reasonably likely that you OR Creature is a wolf, and I don't particularly see this as Creature's wolf game.

So "OMG HOW DARE YOU PUSH ME AFTER I LYNCHED A WOLF D1" is basically bullshit, and you're a good enough player to know it.

[mhsmith0]

I gave her botd with her appeal to me because it looked a lil genuine

But then did nothing game advancing afterwards, then subbed out (right when MariaR was getting wagoned)

Then her precedent coasted the entire day 1 and went commando with bullshit reasoning to lynch me on d2.

1) Coasting D1 when there's a wolf lynch on the board is pretty weird behavior for a buddy. You're essentially arguing that I shaded Gamma (around the back and forth between him and burgerking), didn't bother to hop on (when it would have obviously been easy for me to do so) or make any actual attempt to save Gamma, and that this was somehow behavior you'd expect from me if I was a wolf for... reasons? Like, is your theory that I was frozen or something? It just seems incredibly strange that you'd read what was happening D1, and think that somehow I was operationalizing some kind of scum strategy here. I could MAYBE see the case that I was UTR on D1 as being suspicious given a TOWN lynch (lurking or active lurking while a town is busy eating itself is an easy play as a wolf), but arguing that my behavior there is particularly indicative given a WOLF lynch is bizarre.

2) The reasoning against you isn't bullshit, and misrepping it as if there's somehow no case, or if you being on Gamma D1 was somehow clearing, is bullshit. You seem to be closer to your scum meta than your town one, you had fairly clear kill motive on Aubrey, and there's nothing particular clearing for you that I can see. Those are entirely valid points.

[mhsmith0]

Bad response

If i get lynched

You don't survive

So continue lynching me smith

If this is the best you can do I'll keep lynching you trans.

[mhsmith0]

I'm busy trying to push trans, with SAJ a potential backup option. I don't think I have a particularly notable opinion on your slot.

[mhsmith0]

I mean, you were kinda bullshitty in the game we had together where you were a wolf (although IIRC some of that popped up in your town games too, part of why I struggled to read you in that one), but I don't know that I've really seen enough from you to really sort you one way or the other. Do you think you or your predecessor did anything especially notable or interesting I should be paying attention to?

[mhsmith0]

Meh, should probably re-read trans from the mini I modded. I recall him getting super pissy in that one, will try and see how it compares. Probably doing that tomorrow.

[mhsmith0]

What should I pretend to do instead then? Because if this is town!you honestly reading me as a wolf for somehow trying to "commando" a case on you (still not sure what that means or why getting to L-3 inspired that kind of reaction), then you're basically showing that you don't actually know how to read me.

[mhsmith0]

If Trans was framed, there's little need for scum to bother voting him, as the case basically makes itself. The odds of the last two wolves together strongarming an aggressive player just for the sake of securing a single mislynch are pretty long.

That said, three votes have gone on trans:
you
me
Dunn (now back off)
(and creature made the point about NKA a while ago but is still parked on my slot)

So if you presume that trans is town for the sake of the argument, the wolves are... you and me? me and dunn? creature fitting in somehow?

[mhsmith0]

oh wait right lol cteature swapped, is also on trans wagon. so it actually got to L-2. OK my L-3 comment was a bit too much then, I can see L-2 being cause for concern. The reaction stil did seem over-wrought though.

[mhsmith0]

honestly-

this might not even be a frame on me

someone might have mason read aubrey

you guys need to think a bit outside the box

It's conceivable that someone made a bad read there, although Aubrey's general aggression and spamminess seemed more consistent with what I'd expect from VT compared to mason. I also don't think I ever got any kind of agenda-y read from him (where masons actually MIGHT potentially have an agenda, at least in terms of keeping pressure off each other).

Why do you think that it's reasonable to have mason read Aubrey there?

[mhsmith0]

Well yeah, wolves should very clearly be killing for masons. But they took a shot that to me didn't really make much sense if aiming for masons.

And that means, to me, at least one of two things

1) Trans killed him to shut him up

2) lol wolves

#2 is always possible (and fun! ... well, not for two of the people alive ), but in a world with competent wolves, I'm finding a hard time explaning it as not being #1. So, if you're going to start with the standpoint of being town (duh), then FYPOV it's

1) lol wolves
2) Aubrey actually made sense as a mason shot

If #2 I don't see it and would like an explanation. If #1, then who do you think could reasonably have made a really bad N1 shot and why?

[mhsmith0]

inb4 "oh god why is smith tryharding again"

[mhsmith0]

I think you forgot to carry the 2

[mhsmith0]

Remind me, was there ever a case on Aubrey beyond Trans going "hey guys he like totally claimed scum"? I mean I guess on a pretty weak theory basis I can MAYBE see something along those lines, but to me I'd think that the reason Aubrey never really caught votes was because he was a pretty likely villager who never deserved to catch votes.

[mhsmith0]

[mhsmith0]

more seriously, I'd have actually PR hunted as a wolf in that spot, and I'd like to think I'd have made a better judgement than someone who looked pretty strongly VT.

I'd also note that I'd probably have avoided shooting someone who's attention was very clearly elsewhere, since Aubrey pushing on Trans (presuming Trans as a villager) would have been something easy enough for me to engage with without having to really drive the action. Why bother making a setup kill instead of PR hunting in that spot? It makes no reasonable sense to do this if I'm mafia there.

[mhsmith0]

I think you forgot to carry the 2

[mhsmith0]

What makes you think that you're necessarily tied together in my mind? Your lazy defense of him would easily be a wolf defending a townie, for instance.

[mhsmith0]

You there? Thoughts beyond "why does smith pair me with trans"?

[mhsmith0]

Why exactly were you voting for Transcend?

My meta on him s***posting, which from a mod's perspective was sometimes quite funny to see, until he called me a s*** host, the players s*** players and Mafia a s*** game.

I pray you're scum just for the sake of you not actually being this petty

Wouldn't hold my breath. People can be super petty in games like these.

[mhsmith0]

My current player read list I have.

1) Transcend: Scum Lean?
2) Creature: Null Town Lean?
3) Burgerking: Null scum lean
4)

Aristophanes

: Null
5) BK201: Null scum lean
6) sad1492: Null town lean, but willing to lynch
7)

MariaR

Gamma: town lean
8) Aubrey
9)

MiniDeathStar

mhsmith: Null Null Town Lean
10) oddmusic: town lean
11) Secret Agent Jin: Null scum lean
12) doomfeathers: Null scum lean
13) tojam2: Null but willing to lynch (The smallest of small town leans. Smaller than the world's tiniest violin.)

If Null is before town or scum lean, then it just means its a weaker read that a flat out town/scum lean.

? means I'm a bit perplexed as to why I feel the way I do, but I do.

This list literally changes daily. Usually multiple times at that.

Lastly notice how Transcend never tries to sell me onto the gamma wagon, and never tries to refute anything that I brought forward for Gamma. Instead he just ties me and smith to gamma and carries on his merry way. This isn't pro town what so ever. What it seems like to me is a scum trying to seem townie by trying to get townies not to vote for one player who is easy lynchbait (who could very well be scum) and vote for another.

Mhsmith says he doesn't remember Gamma being a derpy villager. While I wouldn't use those words, the one game I have played with gamma he did have some odd reads and made choices that ultimately led to him being townie lynchbait day one. Hence why I'm not as bothered by gamma.

On another note why would scum transcend try so hard to tie Smith and I to gamma. Is this a townie trying to actually figure out the game or is the scum hard busting his own partner on day one in order to earn stronger town credit and have townies take the fall post flip.

Actually In post 990, it actually doesn't make sense for scum Transcend to push for a link between smith gamma and I by trying to get the town to lynch gamma if he knows he is town. Instead the smarter scum play would be to say the lot of us are scummy to him, but not exactly sure if we are all connected so that he would have an out.

991 is the stronger possibility in attempting to assess his slot.

So to the extent Aubrey had engagement with my slot d1, he was town-reading me, including presenting a scum-read on transcend in the context of trans trying to create fake associations between gamma and me.

Moreover, I don't see any actual evidence that suggests Aubrey had any equity as a reasonably likely mason.

So if I'm scum (and trans is town), then a shot on Aubrey literally makes zero sense from me. It doesn't hit a mason, it takes away a slot that town reads me, and it takes away what could be a useful distraction for town.

Ps that parade of empty hops on my wagon ought to be a pretty good sign that it's more or less bullshit.

[mhsmith0]

Oh wow, i didnt realize it has been 2 days since my last post. That is my bad though, i have been around.

Creature, what is your reasoning for voting MhSmith?

I'm still not feeling town!mhsmith0.

Can we address Dunn and his weird posts?

no

VOTE: mhsmith0

UNVOTE:

VOTE: MhSmith

Here's the context of SAJ hop on btw. Unless you want to argue that he was convinced by fitzs reasoning (and there's no evidence of this), it looks like an especially lazy hop on to a wagon with momentum, even more bizarre given how he was shading two people (creature and dunn) who also hopped on.

Ps his recent take on me

You there? Thoughts beyond "why does smith pair me with trans"?

In the end, i think your posts against Trans for the last few pages is a town v town thing. I wholeheartedly believe that the Aubrey kill was a setup to pin blame on Transcend. In saying that, you are either a town member which took the NK bait OR you are a scum member following up on your bait kill, which would be stupid to do. I want to believe you are town attacking a framed town member.

VOTE: SAJ

Trans also a good wagon IMO but that hop on was atrocious.

[mhsmith0]

Pps still have town read on creature, and odd had earned a TR pre sub out. SAJ, trans, Dunn seem sketchiest of the people voting me.

[mhsmith0]

And Dunn is more null than anything else fwiw.

[mhsmith0]

And in case anyone wants to pretend like they don't know the votes,

I AM AT L-1

[mhsmith0]

Trans
Creature
Dunn
Fits
SAJ

All on me

[mhsmith0]

So if I'm scum (and trans is town), then a shot on Aubrey literally makes zero sense from me. It doesn't hit a mason,

I have problem with this mostly

You're acting like you'd never ever shoot aubrey

Unless you can argue Aubrey had mason equity, then I would never ever shoot Aubrey there. N1 is for killing PRs and/or people who are problems. If I'm scum, then Aubrey wasn't a problem for me. And I've seen no case for Aubrey being a realistic mason beyond "eh why not". I found aubreys spamminess to be vt-suggestive, and I didn't really see evidence of connections w others that would seem mason-like.

[mhsmith0]

Trans
Creature
Dunn
Fits
SAJ

All on me

I was actually seeing if anyone else was voting SAJ

There isn't anyone voting SAJ other than me currently.

[mhsmith0]

IIRC there was a "well Aubrey never took off as a wagon therefore maybe mason" idea floated, but unless there's a reason Aubrey SHOULD have taken off (there wasn't IMO) then it's a spurious argument born if lazy reasoning. And if that's the best argument for Aubrey as a maybe mason, then it's a shitty pr hunting shot, and it's again not a shot I'd have had motive for.

Ps I'm now the second counter-wagon to trans (flubber #1). I feel like trans-saj is too easy of a scum team, but I'd say it's highly likely at least one is scum.

[mhsmith0]

Ps as a fun excercise, try and describe why people are on my wagon.

Trans is essentially OMGUS
Creature "doesn't have the town feels"
Fitz apparently thinks that gamma was town (since the whole "shading without voting" on a slot going down is a decent way to describe how scum might engage with TOWN going down, but it's a lot weirder for that to be engagement w a buddy)
Idk why you and SAJ are on me

Lol any villager who thinks that this wagon with this reasoning has a realistic chance to hit scum.

[mhsmith0]

@dunn: I obviously CAN say it's a kill I wouldn't have done. I have no reason to want Aubrey gone if I'm scum, and there's no substantive reason to think he was a mason.

@trans: it's basically just omgus. You are lying to us or to yourself. You and SAJ should be wagons tomorrow if this shit wagon actually goes through.

[mhsmith0]

Fine

Igmeoy tho

Smith's play is lacking this game and i don't exactly think mini was town. What say you?

It's the reason you're pushing on me

Only for nka and not anything I've done in this game

You're a better player than this and in 646 while you did use a bit of mka to get me lynched, you had so much more in your case from my game. And in this one you have nothing that I've done in game to support your vote. So yes. Hang me all you want. I'll schedule your appointment with Dr. Rope for tomorrow.

Bad response

If i get lynched

You don't survive

So continue lynching me smith

would choose smith i guess, he actually townreads me quite a bit when he's town. like he townread me for most of my scum games. this time i'm town and i think i'm towntelling harder than i didi in m scumgaems.

flulbber feels like mislynch

creature was the reason gamma got lynched lol

Yeah this is totally not basically just OMGUS

[mhsmith0]

A side of "smith not doing much" too on top of the OMGUS entree

[mhsmith0]

Ps wrt 1219, "smith misread trans twice" is a pretty good reason toNOTexpect town!me to town read you in game #3.

[mhsmith0]

Good news: I'm not a mason
Bad news: I'm town

Tomorrow wagons should be SAJ/trans and maybe sad

Aubrey kill is EXACTLY what I'd expect from trans and his shitty kills, and SAJ hop on my wagon was horrific.

[mhsmith0]

FYI this is my first lol hammer ever since I've been to msfiascum alignment-wise.
And it feels fucking amazing

Only if you're scum. If you're town that was an embarrassment.

[mhsmith0]

Crocodile tears from Dunn kinda sketchy too. Almost like super lazy wagons rarely lynch scum. FUNNY THAT.

Ps that's my first mislynch. If town blows this too I'm gonna shit on you guys pretty hard in dead thread and post game.

[mhsmith0]

Smith, u n i both kno ur trolling

But hey i respect ppl who troll twilight

God I hope you're scum here.

[mhsmith0]

Sads LOL hammer probably worth a policy lynch eventually but isn't #1 priority tomorrow.

Ps notice how I'm not sharing mason reads? Gee, WHY WOULD THAT BE

[mhsmith0]

Keks
Assume smith actually is town... Oh crap my town cred

If you're town, learn not to lol hammer.

[mhsmith0]

This is faux rage from smith dw.

You're trying too hard to keep your "scum read" on me here. Spare me the bullshit.

[mhsmith0]

He is town guys, I can personally confirm

And if you're town, you should have known better.

[mhsmith0]

Bc if you shared mason reads, you'd clear random town.

Taa scum.

"Masons are players A, X, and recruited is player Y" like I couldn't set that kind of shit up in scum chat.

[mhsmith0]

Uh... Actually
I'm really truly truthfully terribly sorry if you're town
And I'll take that into account not to lol hammer until claim

Not just claim but defense. The entire case on me was lazy as fuck,

[mhsmith0]

Scum have NIGHT TALK. That's when you set up a code. Duh.

[mhsmith0]

Uh... Actually
I'm really truly truthfully terribly sorry if you're town
And I'll take that into account not to lol hammer until claim

Nah man.

Own that lol hammer.

Embrace that lol hammer.

Even if he's town he was being an insufferable shit and deserved to die.

buthesnottownlololo

"He deserved the mislynch"

[mhsmith0]

Scum have NIGHT TALK. That's when you set up a code. Duh.

They didn't set up a code though

If I was scum I would have. Thus trans point about my not outing mason reads being bullshit.

[mhsmith0]

At least twilight is interesting this time.

[mhsmith0]

Trans/SAJ wagons tomorrow please. Sad if you wanna get cute. MAYBE Dunn but I'm null on him. Creature still >rand town.

[mhsmith0]

"Smith isn't doing much" in a game going well for town will get pointed back to this game like always. Self meta ftw

[mhsmith0]

Remember, trans/SAJ wagons tomorrow. The odds of both being town are vanishingly small.

[mhsmith0]

Trans pretending to still scum read me is a big game highlight.

[mhsmith0]

this is bad by trans as either alignment but >rand scum.

[mhsmith0]

Only after you join them trans.

[mhsmith0]

I'm assuming I'm going to win this game

Despite this shit lynch I feel good about my odds. Hopefully scum miss tonight again.

[mhsmith0]

Anyway I'm going to dinner. Pretty annoyed about absorbing a shit mislynch here but lazy towns gonna lazy *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

Ps future advice: only do a lazy POE wagon on an essentially null read if you have a bunch of deserved strong town reads. This game hadn't gotten to the state where that approach made sense.

[mhsmith0]

@BK201: I don't have much of a burgerking read. Hasn't really been my focus. see: "lets quick-lynch smith for being lazy (in a game that had been going well for town) and accurately pointing out that he had zero kill motive on Aubrey (and that he is actually GOOD at PR hunting, of which the Aubrey shot was the opposite of that)".

[mhsmith0]

Other notes:

SAJ/Trans are scum reads independent of each other and they fit together at least plausibly. If you people want to wagon SAJ first for that horrific hop onto my wagon (where before it got momentum he was seemingly against it, and then hopped on with no substance) before trans, that's fine. I recommend dueling trans/SAJ wagons tomorrow. Other notes:

1092 is not a town slip by SAJ. It might be an attempted town slip, but it's in no way a gimme there, especially given that it was like 45 minutes later. I could easily see that as a forced attempt to look like he's town slipping.

I still have no idea what Dunn's reasoning was for hopping on my wagon. "Nothing you've done makes me think town" is basically a null read, ditto his push against my defense. If twilight continues, he should be forced to actually justify why he hopped on (especially given his previously stated town read on my slot).

I'll also note that despite "smith lazy", I am currently the 4th highest poster. There have been plenty of lazy people this game. I got wagoned as a counter to trans that took off. My shit wagon, as annoying as it was (I'm proud of my record of never being lynched as town - I have NINETEEN completed town games without being mislynched even once), should be a useful mine for data. There is almost always at least one wolf on that wagon, in large part because town being THAT stupid and lazy would just be to horrible to fathom. Try and actually think through what happened and why after I'm gone. I was lynched for being a null, and there was basically zero case on me, and it went through anyway. Really shitty wagons that go through are good data mines, so work through that and figure it out (if trans is just shitty town this game, which I doubt but is obviously possible, then I'd take a much closer look at flubber, given that flubber was the first counter to trans and then it was my wagon that really took off). Plenty of data out there if you choose to use it.

[mhsmith0]

I doubt mafia thought like that, but they could have picked up on some mason-tell we're missing. Is your read on SAJ dependent on Transcend being scum?

The point wrt Aubrey NK was that EITHER mafia was doing a really shitty job of PR hunting, OR there was a specific kill motive that was independent of PR hunting. If the former, lol wolves (and hopefully they screw up again tonight). If the latter, it points pretty flagrantly to Trans, and it simply isn't likely that he was framed (why would any mafia waste a shot on a frame job on N1 instead of PR hunting). That was the argument I made, and I basically got lynched for it (along with "why weren't you doing more"). Like, that's basically the case on me, and I got quick-wagoned. I suspect that people will pretend there was more to it than that, or simply ignore me and my wagon, or just blame me as if getting quick-wagoned on air was somehow actually my fault, but the villagers here should be paying attention to what happened here and working through it to actually game solve.

[mhsmith0]

idk guys

i think he's trolling

You are lying to yourself or to us, and I find you lying to yourself increasingly unbelievable.

[mhsmith0]

I'll see you in dead thread soon enough unless town really sucks.

[mhsmith0]

PS I enjoyed you trying to take credit for the Gamma lynch as if you hadn't spent most of D1 tunneling townies (Aubrey and my slot). Who knows if people will bother paying attention to this after I'm gone (after all, I clearly must deserve to be lynched if I was lynched, regardless of how stupid the wagon was ), but they should.

[mhsmith0]

Trans (if town) after my flip:

"It was totally smith's fault for getting wagoned for no good reason at all, I definitely didn't fuck it up or anything"

[mhsmith0]

@masons: on the off chance that you screwed up and didn't recruit N1, recruit tongiht. This is something you MUST do (and really really should have done N1 if you haven't already). I don't feel like going into the mechanics of it, but since I'm going to flip green anyway, trust me on it.

[mhsmith0]

The ignorance and laziness required for town!trans to actually believe that I'm twilight trolling like this would be astounding. Obviously not 100% impossible, but IMO pretty indicative. Likelier that he's just trying too hard to make it look like he actually believes I'm a wolf.

[mhsmith0]

I'm actually curious to see if my mason guesses are better than scum's. It'd be hilarious if so, since I don't have the benefit of knowing which two players I can slice off the list.

[mhsmith0]

Wait a second, i have a question for you Smith. Why would i hammer Gamma D1 if i was scum? To bus myself a bit? I could have waited for someone else to hammer considering the hammer could be used against me for bussing.

It takes you AFTER my lynch to ask a question like this?

I mean, my case on you had nothing to do with the D1 Gamma hammer, which is obviously doable as either alignment. Why do you think it's actually clearing instead of just NAI?

[mhsmith0]

Why should we NOT wait until the scummier players show up then recruit them? I always thought masons are essentially 1-shot cops

Oh goodness no. What happens if a mason dies N1, and then mason #2 mis-recruits? Then suddenly those shots are worthless. Moreover, using it later makes it more plausible that mason #1 is shot and mason #2 dies recruiting on the same night. Whoever the masons are should ALWAYS use the recruitment N1.

Also it's helpful to have a third voice in mason chat on N2 to better plan and read the board. The masons KNOW each other are town and are better positioned to lead the board and drive lynches than VT's who only know their own alignment.

[mhsmith0]

Remember, the cost of mis-recruiting is an extra night death (barring scum shooting the same mason who mis-recruits), which is a HUGE cost to town.

With no recruiting misses, it's 10v3 and town gets four mislynches before it loses. With a recruiting miss, it becomes 9v3 and town loses a mislynch AND a cleared player in exchange for a guilty.

Generally, masons should be recruiting town leans or players with really high value to be sorted. Like it an elite player was on the board, you'd consider recruiting him/her N1 and either have an easy guilty on a player who might run the table otherwise, or a hard clear on a player who can really help you sort things.

The later masons do this, the LESS value it has. Also, the greater the odds that the player masons recruit gets shot that very night, rendering the whole excercise nearly worthless.

PS the closest thing to PR-based logic about shooting aubrey N1 is that maybe the masons were thinking about recruiting him.

[mhsmith0]

A recruited mason that is now a hard town clear is higher value to the town than a dead mason and a guilty. The game being down to two living scum reduces this a bit (the 2nd guilty would be a nice +EV), but in general masons should be trying to recruit town who won't likely attract a bullet that same night. Obviously there's WIFOM involved in this, since it's two sides trying to out-guess each other, but that's another reason that masons should be using their shots early.

See the prior iteration of this, where the masons recruited Thor N1 (while thinking he was scum) and got pretty good value from the excercise, as he was in fact town and became mason #3.

[mhsmith0]

This has been a public service announcement from smith, a player who is good at mechanics discussions

(and who is good at night actions as either alignment by the way, something that transcend should know very well by now seeing as Jae and I wrecked his team with our night actions in mini 1844, to the point where he was incorrectly asserting that the whole setup was town-sided, when it was mainly just swingy and dependent on town PR's making good choices to catch scum, and had the potential for town PR's to really blow it with bad actions, my role especially)

[mhsmith0]

PS trans wolf meta seems to be taking shots that point back to him (open 646 as an easy example of this), and/or doing a bad job with PR-hunting or other mechanical considerations (mini 1844 as an example of this). The Aubrey N1 shot seems to fit both these criteria.

[mhsmith0]

@dunn:

@SAJ: NAI = not alignment indicative
Well, you made a really terrible vote on me that went against your earlier push against my wagon, and it seems like you did it entirely because I was a wagon with momentum. The better question here is, why did you actually think I was scum? You no longer have a need to sort me, town has a need to sort you given that you were (IMO) the worst of the votes on me.

wrt Trans and you, you're my top two scum reads, with a realistic chance that you're actually a team together (though obviously it's very plausible it's just one of you)

[mhsmith0]

fuck you and you can't meta me

have a good night and keep the pt warm for your scumfuck buddy because i'll be sending him there shortly

If you are town here, then I will concede the point. If you are scum, I'd say I'm getting increasingly good at the exercise. I note that you don't actually dispute the fact that the Aubrey shot DOES fit your scum meta, both in terms of mechanically poor shot and just going after someone who went after you. "But wait, maybe Aubrey made sense as a mason for reasons that I can't particularly describe, people just need to think outside the box and stuff"

[mhsmith0]

hey dunn and saj, why did you guys think I was scum again? I'd really rather get that explanation down now as opposed to after you've had two days to think about it.

[mhsmith0]

cool. why did you think i was mafia instead of basically just a null?

[mhsmith0]

@dunn: That's basically a null thing though. Realistically, I had no motive to want Aubrey dead in terms of his reads and pushes (barring something weird like a me-trans team), which means that the ONLY reason that would make sense is that he'd have been a mason read, which no one could really articulate good reasons to think he was, which meant that I had no kill motive on him. Sure, there's some level of WIFOM there, but it's a pretty meaningful data point which pretty solidly points to "not smith". I've used NKA to absolve myself of suspicion before, and while I'd probably do it as either alignment, I don't really see why it's particularly suspicious instead of null.

Like, the entire case on me was a big null, in a board that didn't really have a lot of people who were obvious town. Plus that wagon speed and the specious reasoning of almost everyone voting/pushing it REALLY should have been a big red flag.

@sad: since you're softing the shit out of possibly being a mason (hopefully this is WIFOM from a VT, in which case well done), I'd say

1) You should probably be the recruiter if you haven't already (since you have decent odds of absorbing a bullet), and REALLY need to use it on a town read in case you're a mason whose buddy is getting shot instead
2) No one should recruit sad tonight, in case there are two masons with a shot left (see #1)

[mhsmith0]

@SAJ: NAI = not alignment indicative
Well, you made a really terrible vote on me that went against your earlier push against my wagon, and it seems like you did it entirely because I was a wagon with momentum. The better question here is, why did you actually think I was scum? You no longer have a need to sort me, town has a need to sort you given that you were (IMO) the worst of the votes on me.

wrt Trans and you, you're my top two scum reads, with a realistic chance that you're actually a team together (though obviously it's very plausible it's just one of you)

Touché, if you flip town then my vote was a horrible one. As far as my reasoning that i think you were scum goes, i was thoroughly convinced of your scumminess by others. That is what happens when you are a new player and suck at reading people.

What arguments by which people convinced you? There really wasn't much of a case presented, and IIRC only fitz came in with anything sort of new in the time it took for you to flip onto me (IIRC anyway - not my job to verify this anymore). I don't really see why you were convinced, and "well people convinced me" doesn't really explain it.

[mhsmith0]

That hammer by fitz should have been autolynch.

My reads were starting to correct and fitz just hammered.

Not sure I would have caught bk though without vote funny stuff.

Yeah fitz not getting lynched for the clear scum hammer was really bad play. Probably bk takes it in final LYLO tho.