New Year's Eve Masquerade Ball - [Game Over]

[pieguyn]

two very important points which I need to make immediately:

1. I agree wholeheartedly with lady Nahdia's 181.

2. gentleman Human Sequencer, do you truly play IIDX and if so is Mei truly your favorite song from the IIDX series?

be back later

[pieguyn]

1. I agree wholeheartedly with lady Nahdia's 181.

Lady pieguyn i think im getting a fever

I totally haven't done anything that would give you any reason to blush, amirite?

:3

[pieguyn]

who said anything about blushing? we're clearly talking about fevers here.

clearly~

/pulls out her list of ways to make girls blush and confirms that this isn't anywhere on it

[pieguyn]

Dude if you're in love just admit your love while the game has still a slight amount of romance.

Well I know I've already picked up a partner, but I think I might have recently fallen for pieguyn

/smiles softly

it's too bad we couldn't be anything this game, gentleman HS.

[pieguyn]

I have town on HS, Cv666, inspectorscout, and SAD. I think Kagami is probably also town but I'm not as sure.

this game is very difficult to parse.

[pieguyn]

agreed, usually i'd have a read on you by now >: \

if there's anything you want to ask me about, go for it. I'm not exactly sure where to begin with this game.

I have town on HS, Cv666, inspectorscout, and SAD. I think Kagami is probably also town but I'm not as sure.

this game is very difficult to parse.

Yes because a good chunk of posts have been

1) about mechanics
2) bitching about people talking mechanics
3) various other useless stuff

And suspects so far?

I definitely don't agree with the push on S_S for "scum slipping"; I read S_S' 212 as a pretty clear "assuming you're town, this doesn't make sense" type of question. I think his tone is annoying at points, but I don't think that's a good reason to scum read him either. if you or anyone else wants to correct me on either of these points or pitch me a case for other reasons, I'd assess it, though.

I'm not satisfied with Parama's pushes outside of the S_S slip, either. the Kagami push also stood out to me, mostly because it felt like they were forcefully attempting to frame it as a "this is something no one else has thought about yet" push and the reasoning felt kind of meh. I also just feel like nothing they've posted has been particularly compelling or town in general, though it is very early in the game.

I would support a Gamma push; I think he's been very passive so far, and he hasn't attempted to make any pushes outside of backing the consensus push on S_S. I'd also like him to explain how he arrived at his Maria town read as quickly as he did.

I do find myself agreeing with the thread consensus on The_Jester; his reaction to HS around the 266 range felt deflective and like an overreaction for the sake of an overreaction, even though the initial point about his activity wasn't all that great.

[pieguyn]

Invites pieguyn to dance

Be prepared for a PT full of interrogation and shit posting. Be very prepared.

I'll accept this.

[pieguyn]

Vedith might also be town, even though I disagree with the vast majority of his posts.

[pieguyn]

@Pieguyn
I believe town is more likely to make those sorts of I'm town with you posts

I specifically ask about 502; I would expect that you would have made sure you had a full understanding of the context behind Maria's 464 before declaring it as a town post. am I missing something?

[pieguyn]

I was trying to pocket her so she'd let her guard down

hmm, OK. carry on, then~

[pieguyn]

S_S' posts don't come across as particularly scummy to me. realistically this likely doesn't *actually* matter that much and I don't have any form of town read on him, so I wouldn't complain about him being left out, but eh.

[pieguyn]

vote: GE/Vedith

[pieguyn]

now taking applications for a town/town pair that isn't mine.

at the moment I agree your pair is town/town, and I think SAD/inspectorscout is town/town.

[pieguyn]

Btw, you should have signed up as a gentleman, pie -_-

I pre-in'd for this like one hour after FG posted it to the large theme queue, and the next thing I knew it had went into signups and it had already filled.

oh well, I guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What do you think about the jester pair?

I don't have any form of town read on MDS. I largely agree with the scum reads people have expressed on The_Jester, mostly for the reasoning I wrote in 652.

at the moment I think the best strategy for this is just to identify two town/town pairs and kill off everyone else, regardless of order, so either way I definitely don't want it getting to endgame. I'm open to something else if you think I'm wrong, though.

[pieguyn]

I don't have any form of town read on MDS.

What do you think of her weird defense of Jester?

I can't make out if that's townie super arrogantly confident she can read a friend or scum who's scum pretending she's arrogant while scared she was going to go down Day 1 because Jester was getting scumread super hard.

I agree the defense was bad, but I have felt that compulsion to defend players solely based on the fact that I want to play with them/don't want people to lynch them before I get a chance to read them before, so I don't think it her scum. if there's something specific about it that you took issue with let me know and I can look at it again.

[pieguyn]

I'm on p43 and oh god a bunch of people are looking at the last game.

please don't look, it's embarrassing. > <

[pieguyn]

i want every1's reads on Parame and HS.

HS is town, I actually have a slight scum read on Parama and would like if people could reiterate why they think they're town.

[pieguyn]

The town-shadow explanation there is that he finds Cerb's behavior odd and was poking at oddities without really thinking through the implications of them, which weighs against the probability that scum-shadow was poking at him in an effort to appear townish and did so in a very clumsy way. I don't think it's quite the smoking gun Parama is making it out to be, but meh.

OK I think I must be missing something because I still am not sure what exactly he missed in 212. I think 212 was intentionally worded in a way that assumed Cv666 was town, and the point was to say something along the lines of "if you're town this doesn't make sense". what am I missing here?

I also was gonna ask you about the Vedith scum read but it seems you've came around on it.

vote: The_Jester/MDS

[pieguyn]

HS I see your posts and I'll respond when I'm back home, I'm out the door in a few mins.

[pieguyn]

I am going to need a day, sorry.

[pieguyn]

I have basically just accepted the fact that I will never get anywhere if I try to read the entire game before posting every time.

by and large, I definitely agree with Nahdia that we need to be town hunting here and that optimal play is identifying a town/town pair that should survive to endgame; I largely think that if we're debating what order to lynch the rest of the pairs in, it should be done for information purposes and not by serially identifying the scummiest pairs. for that reason, I don't particularly care *that* much about who the lynch is so long as I'm not reading the pair as town.

as of page like 50-something, I still think The_Jester is scum, and I largely agree with consensus that GE/Vedith needs to die before endgame (this meaning I agree GE needs to die before endgame). I'm sad to admit that I could also see mhsmith0 as scum pretty easily, just based on how passive he is, though I'm open to correction if anyone wants to point me to something town he's done in the past however-many pages.

I am still very wary of Parama, although I think they look slightly better than I thought before based on what I have seen from them.

Kagami-san, you called for me?

[pieguyn]

Yo
Do we still need death if both Shadow and HS flip scum?

I have not thought about that at all. if you want me to comment on this, you'll need to walk me through what your argument here is.

ftr, I have HS as town.

[pieguyn]

meh, sounds like we're on the same page.

should I switch over to GE?

also, does this include Parama? I don't seem to remember you having a scum read on them.

[pieguyn]

First is the fact I SR Shadow because his method of play doesn't feel like he is town, especially his aversion to giving solid reads. I see some, but it's scattered and hard to analyze.
Then there's the fact Maria states Shadow has been really nice and apologetic in the PT. Scum don't need to do this with scumbuddies so I think Maria is town
Then there's HS's "if Maria flips town GE/Vedith should go". She only mentions Maria's alignment there, and it makes me think she's setting my pair up to take the fall after a Shadow + Maria flip
So if both Shadow and HS flip scum, there should be no doubt my pair is town based on how they set us up.

I honestly would have to go back and look at the posts myself before making a judgement call on this, but I would definitely consider it.

[pieguyn]

I think Parama is town based on how she is pushing Shadow

that's actually a part of why I'm wary of them. pushing one person really hard and insisting that they're lynched before anyone else is really counter-productive in this setup (lololol), and I do not think that their interpretation of S_S's 212 was all that great. unless Parama is a player who has certain tendencies as town (lololol), my gut call on this is that it looks more like scum hoping to hard push someone in order to get town read for "genuinely believing in their read" without realizing that there isn't much of a reason to push anyone that hard in this setup.

I'm also very not OK with the fact that HS is saying they're doing a lot and looking really town in the PT, without putting anything similar into the game thread. it's a fairly textbook scum strategy to tailor your play really hard to people who you have neighborhoods with in the hope that they will defend you for it.

for whatever reason, I didn't mind the fact that they explicitly went out of their way to point out to me what I missed in S_S's 212, as well as some other things they did in their last round of posts, so I don't feel that strongly about any of this. I likely would not worry that hard about it outside of e.g. MYLO.

[pieguyn]

it would make the most sense if Parama was under the impression they were being set up to be an/the town pair intended to be alive at endgame, but I don't think that's the case? correct me if I'm wrong on this.

[pieguyn]

806 is a bad plan and an easy way to blow the game if you guess wrong on the town-town pair, but I don't really get meaningful pings from her ISO so far one way or the other.

identifying one town/town pair is significantly easier than attempting to identify three separate scum. I learned this the hard way last game.

besides that it obviously is not a completely rigid plan, it's just that we should be focusing on solidifying town reads this game rather than solidifying scum reads

[pieguyn]

-Pie moved down because I really see nothing in her ISO that she can't be faking. She's being helpful, yes. She has reads, yes. But like... nothing that can't be faked. It's one of my qualms with people like that (which is why I brought up the Equinox point), it's very hard for me to get a grasp on the people that don't post with ~passion~.

if passion is what you're looking for, expect me to be obvious town sometime later in the game when 1. I can actually parse the thread and get reads I feel half-strongly about, 2. we're not in a situation where I largely just want to clear out a lot of the pairs who I don't think are town.

[pieguyn]

if we're discussing why we picked who we did, I largely didn't care who I ended up with. I didn't see any gamestate where mhsmith0 was being left out, he seemed slightly more compatible with me than the remaining gentlemen in terms of our play styles, and I didn't care what his alignment was (either he's town, in which case it only really matters to me if the consensus is that we're a town/town pair, or he's scum, in which case whatever). I have no intention of defending my partner or being the last pair left unless I feel *really* sure he's town and consensus wants it, mostly because I just straight up wouldn't be able to live with myself if I was left at the end and my partner was scum for the second game in a row.

if you're worried this is ATE (mhsmith seems to be in our PT), just ask Nahdia.

[pieguyn]

mhsmith asked me in our PT why I was OK with accepting him so easily, I basically gave him that same answer, and he said he was probably fine with it but thought about the possibility of it being ATE. this happened maybe a few minutes ago, but I don't really see any reason to withhold it from here since I'm pretty sure he asked the same question in this thread forever ago.

[pieguyn]

mhsmith0 feels really fucking off and I'm honestly considering a self vote because that's the only thing I feel even half-strongly about this game. I hated most of his posts in the past 10 or so pages, especially after GE flipping town.

I still think The_Jester is likely scum, too, but I'm not certain about it.

I still think SAD/inspectorscout is the most town pair. I think Dunn/Kagami is probably also town/town, but I'm not 100%.

I largely just want this day to end at this point. I'm ok with any of {jester/MDS, mhsmith0/me, no lynch}.

vote: The_Jester/MDS

[pieguyn]

*if* I'm to leave, I'd like if some people could talk to me about SAD/inspectorscout in particular, since I've noticed a lot of scum reads on both of them that I don't understand at all and if it was up to me I'd want that pair alive at endgame. I recall SAD's posts generally being solid (even if kinda abrasive) and I'm not even sure why people seem to find inspectorscout's posts scummy (going off memory here; if I'm wrong correct me).

[pieguyn]

The consesnsus between Kagami and I seems to be that SAD is towny and scout is "meh"

which scout posts are giving you all reservations?

[pieguyn]

interactions like this are part of why I think SAD is town, ftr.

legit don't know why anyone has that as a scum read

[pieguyn]

for the record, the only reason I'm on The_Jester and not mhsmith0 is that I'd like a chance to be able to discuss reads with Kagami with a scum flip on the table (and Nahdia if they're still alive).

if we lynch The_Jester (likely regardless of what he flips), or if we get a scum flip somewhere else, or if Kagami decides to ditch me and go ahead and vote us, then I likely will self vote (and SAD is correct that this approach kills me if I'm scum, since once one of these things happens I really have no option but to invent some reason to push someone else and I look like obvscum).

[pieguyn]

based on reads, I think they're the likeliest to flip scum, yes. situationally, not my #1 lynch choice because of what I said in my last post, but that goes away very soon.

[pieguyn]

mhsmith0 feels really fucking off and I'm honestly considering a self vote because that's the only thing I feel even half-strongly about this game. I hated most of his posts in the past 10 or so pages, especially after GE flipping town.

I still think The_Jester is likely scum, too, but I'm not certain about it.

I still think SAD/inspectorscout is the most town pair. I think Dunn/Kagami is probably also town/town, but I'm not 100%.

I largely just want this day to end at this point. I'm ok with any of {jester/MDS, mhsmith0/me, no lynch}.

vote: The_Jester/MDS

your pair excluded

[pieguyn]

I am not going to lie, I have mostly just skimmed every single thing related to them because it hasn't helped me at all in terms of getting strong reads (there are posts that I might read either way but as I said I'm not interested in forming detail reads on everyone, I'm interested in consolidating town reads on a pair where I'm strongly town reading both players). it's just endless back and forths.

I recall not finding the case on S_S compelling, but I don't have any particular strong town read on him and I have no read on Maria.

[pieguyn]

@MOD: I'm on The_Jester/MDS, not myself. ._.

[pieguyn]

I had another scumgame, being http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67961


About the arthur mds thing, shit's complicated
I want to believe arthur is town and i do, but mhsmith said something about mds saying something about my pair, i dont even remember what, but it did do something for me, like, tie them a bit tgether.
The bad part is thqt it was said by mhsmith who i kind of scumread and i had tied mds to gamma way earlier in game, but since gamma flipped town and gamma being scum was also part of my read on mds my head is one clusterfuck rn

I hope this makes any sense

posts like this and subsequent posts are why I think inspectorscout's body of work also looks pretty town. this is a kind of crazy kind of tinfoil thought process, but it actually has *some* basis in reality and has enough depth that it shows he isn't just making up bullshit, he's actually stopping to think about it and consider possibilities for what is going on.

it's difficult to fake things like this without having it just come across as really forced, unless you're a very experienced scum player.

[pieguyn]

mariar might actually be scum

i probably should *actually* go back and read her posts in-depth at some point or another

[pieguyn]

I'm somewhat entertaining the jester-mds scumpair possibility, with shadow-pair also being T-T. At a PC now which makes reviewing the thread a million times easier.

i actually was considering the same

partly because i have no idea where i'd be able to find three scum in this game if i'm going wrong on e.g. smith, partly because i scum read Jester and am really conflicted on MDS and "pair with a partner and hard defend each other" is a strategy i'd strongly consider playing in this setup, especially if i could pair with someone who i have a lot of mutual credibility with. i don't really know if it's what is going on since i don't think most people would attempt this, but... hm

my approach is basically that it doesn't *really* matter - they should be the next lynch (regardless of whether this is in first dance or second dance), and *if* it's a scum/scum pair, we'll find out for ourselves once they're dead, and if they're not, we just go from there. i don't think i get why you prefer no lynch over a Jester lynch, though.

[pieguyn]

arthur is still locktown

remind me what your read on inspectorscout was again?

[pieguyn]

Sir
jest
human
====
inspectorscout
Kagami
Pie
for me atm

why have I entered your scum list, and why do you scum read Kagami? if I've missed it, link please.

[pieguyn]

I have a town read on Kagami, for the very basic reason that I am almost positive that scum-Kagami in this player list plays a much more straight-shot scum game instead of what she's been doing here (which has mostly just been pushing her own agenda). I recall her being a very pragmatic scum player, and I am fairly sure that no one besides me in this player list is familiar with her play style and that she is like me in that she can play a fairly town-looking textbook scum game to people who aren't familiar with her meta, so not really much of a reason to not do it - the alternative is that she did this and then once I'm dead she's kinda stuck in the ass with no one left defending her play and a lot of people left scum reading her without much recourse.

I've also been paying attention to her reads somewhat and I haven't seen any off notes from her in terms of the pushes she's been making. even the more esoteric reads like MDS/Jester potentially being a scum pair came off as reasonable to me.

if their pair gets lynched and it's town/town, I'd be pretty likely to want to start lynching through the wagon.

[pieguyn]

I don't have the slightest clue what you're attempting to say.

[pieguyn]

o.

it isn't that I'm "trusting" her reads (or even that I'm taking her read as something that makes me more inclined to lynch your pair, really - I'm pretty sure I've made it clear that I'm lynching your pair mostly for Jester and that it's rather pointless to speculate about you two being a scum pair), it's that it's a conclusion I arrived at in my head before she posted it to the game thread, and so I'm not inclined to read her as scum for it (I have read your posts, I just don't think you are looking at it in the right way)

[pieguyn]

I'd be really really cautious of trusting someone solely based on personal meta. People change and adapt from game to game, especially large theme games with unusual mechanics are supposed to be confusing and make people improvise. I'm astonished how everybody is so easy to trust their friends when I myself thought for a while that mine was scum.

I'm aware that people play differently from game to game, but I'm not sure that that has anything to do with it.

my point is very straightforward: had I been scum here and not wanted to try any "pair with a partner and roll the town" shenanigans, I likely would have played a very textbook scum game, in that I would have been active, tried to make good-sounding points, tried to keep on top of the game and look like I was scum hunting, not done anything ridiculous that would have attracted attention onto myself, since I'm more than capable of it and in this player list I don't need to do anything out of the ordinary to fool people who are familiar with my play (since only Kagami and Nahdia have that extent of experience with me). I feel mostly sure that Kagami is capable of doing, and would have done, the same.

[pieguyn]

nothing has really pinged my interest yet except for his questioning of nahdia, and the more of him i see the more i realize that falls in line w/ his personality
why do you ask?

nothing in particular, just at the moment I pretty strongly feel SAD/inspectorscout is the pair I'd like at endgame, and given you seem to be in agreement SAD is town I wanted to see if you agreed or if/why you disagreed with the scout read too.

[pieguyn]

idr exactly how many games but I've had games with her going all the way back to january 2014 and I've hydra'd with her before.

p-edit:

[pieguyn]

So how strong would you say your read is

I feel pretty ok about it, but it is not immutable.

[pieguyn]

the problem with it is I could just be completely wrong in my assessment of how she'd play this. if I assess her play limiting it to only this game, I don't have any reason to strongly town read her, which is why I don't feel 100% safe about it.

[pieguyn]

Spoiler: for HS. maybe slightly NSFW-ish, don't open if not sure

from http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php? ... d=53643579

[pieguyn]

Spoiler:

don't really know at which point 吸血 qualifies as NSFW-ish, don't wanna take any chances. <_>

[pieguyn]

it really is too bad we couldn't be anything this game.

why'd you have to rush T_T

[pieguyn]

What's going on

you're getting in the way of

lewdness

me unceremoniously stealing Parama's lover

love, keep quiet.

[pieguyn]

it's justified because it's lewd. what other reason do we need?~

[pieguyn]

well, mhsmith0 is scum.

hmm, what to do~

[pieguyn]

should I stay, dear? or should I make both of us feel the sweet embrace of death together?~

[pieguyn]

here's a fun idea.

if mhsmith0 wants to live, he gets on his hands and knees and ~begs~ for it. that sounds fun, right?

[pieguyn]

taking all my fun away from me, I see.

but really, I'm not joking.

[pieguyn]

heh.

I have no intention of suiciding, I was hoping if mhsmith was scum he or one of his partners might have tripped themselves up and overreacted. I think this is pretty solidly in "is going nowhere" territory at this point, though, so w/e.

[pieguyn]

we still have less than 2% chance of actually being scum together

if you think this makes {you, Jester} more unlikely than any other set of two scum reads then you have no idea of how probability works

[pieguyn]

Spoiler: confirmation on pieguyn's alignment

should I stay, dear? or should I make both of us feel the sweet embrace of death together?~

here's a fun idea.

if mhsmith0 wants to live, he gets on his hands and knees and ~begs~ for it. that sounds fun, right?

you're a kind gentleman, though. it would feel wrong for me to do that to you :<

[pieguyn]

well, mhsmith0 is scum.

hmm, what to do~

How come you aren't evaluating this "push" on you

I don't really care about him being paranoid of me; I think objectively I look town but I'm nowhere near my usual self which bleeds town all over the thread.

he's scum because he just feels really defensive and cagey (his posts leading up to my 2700, which that was in response to, being an example of this), and he's asking a lot of questions, but it feels like he's just passively floating along and continuing to comment on whatever is going on at the time, without any real follow-through or legwork that indicates he wants to drive the game.

[pieguyn]

mhsmith, can you link me the game you're referring to (in-thread)? if I missed it, link please.

[pieguyn]

I want to look through this game mhsmith is talking about (even though I don't know if I'll get anything from it. I am not particularly good with cold meta), but who here disagrees with just chain lynching Jester -> mhsmith0 -> S_S and going from there?

I'm pretty sure all three of these pairs are widely marked for death and aren't making it to endgame in any universe, but we continue to sit here trying to argue about a singular best lynch from all of them.

[pieguyn]

as I said I want Jester before my pair, but besides that I wouldn't mind it.

[pieguyn]

even the push on Jester.

my intuition is screaming at me that mhsmith knows he is going down and is mirroring my reads (SAD/inspectorscout in particular, which he accepted in our PT with a rather low amount of verification in a much different way to most of the people in this game who I have had to actively convince) in order to generate a bunch of WIFOM for when he flips. I'm aware this is a really shitty reason to scum read someone, but I just don't know if I can shake it.

[pieguyn]

the idea that HS hasn't interacted with me enough is silly.

we don't need to interact, we can sense each other's feelings just by looking at each other. isn't that right?~

[pieguyn]

though I do have to ask this. HS, why do you not seem to be interested in consolidating votes?

S_S/Maria aren't living to endgame, no matter what happens, but there's no reason they absolutely need to be lynched right at this second and fuck everything else. what issue do you take with lynching two other pairs who aren't going to make it to endgame first (ignore the fact you're reading my pair as town)?

[pieguyn]

there are legit a few people on this site who I can sense just by looking at their posts, but none of them are in this game. tis a pity

p-edit: if me/mhsmith is the pair who dies overnight, I probably will jump off a cliff.

[pieguyn]

Maria, why did I enter your scum list?

I'd also like an explanation for the scum read on Kagami.

[pieguyn]

but with all the praise you're getting as an amazing player you seem shockingly underwhelming to me

oh dear, I'm being BOP'd.

if you want me to answer this, I'm approaching this game in a vastly different way from how I'd approach a normal game; all I need to do to win is find one town/town pair and try to make sure they get to endgame, as opposed to solving the entire game and making serious pushes on people. I don't really find most of what's been going on all that productive in terms of accomplishing this (this should be obvious if you look at any of my posts where I point out that there isn't much of a point in debating over who the best lynch is when the choices are a bunch of pairs who aren't and won't ever be anywhere near the most town pair we need to win), which is why I haven't been engaging most of the game so far.

I don't really remember Kagami flipping votes in any way that alarmed me? I remember her switching between wagons on pairs she scum read, but as I said, not much of a point in debating who the #1 scum pick is when none of the pairs are candidates for the town pair; if anything I think being willing to compromise on several people is more effective in this setup.

[pieguyn]

Thanks for the answer.
I think one of the ways I pref to go for is instead of going for town/town pairs are try to find the scum in 1 of the groups in this case ladies because that's easier for me for obv reason.
If I had a gun to my head I'd say Kagami/scout scout is mostly there because I can point out other townreads in the rest of the ladies I think MDS's ate is genuine but I've been known as a sucker for it so that could be my blindspot for lady scum (I like your answer if you can't tell)

I think if you're town, it's probably either Parama, MDS who will be sorted very soon so I'm not really thinking about her too hard, or no one. can you remind me why you town read Parama (especially given if S_S is town most of what they've done this game has been just sitting there and insisting that a town player is lynched)?

I'm not quite sure what S_S's alignment is, but their push on S_S is one thing that continues to have me worried about them and I'm not quite sure why people are expressing town reads on them for it.

[pieguyn]

Parama is definitely playing well if they're scum here, in the sense that their tone does *feel* town, but I have no idea how good their scum game is. have you seen them as scum before?

[pieguyn]

I'm not that interested in neighborhood interactions in terms of reads (or at least town reads). it's fairly textbook play when scum in a neighborhood to specifically tailor your interactions to the person you have a neighborhood with.

even if it's you saying it :<

[pieguyn]

mhsmith0's posts on p118 are a perfect example of what I mean when I say that his play just feels like he's floating along and continuing to ask surface questions about whatever the current topic of discussion is. in particular, MDS pointed this out already, but 2942 and subsequent posts was... I don't even know what to say =_=

also, Jester has continued to do absolutely nothing that's even remotely town

[pieguyn]

I'm thinking jester-scum likely implies smith-scum anyway, as I doubt jester-scum only puts town in his scum-list in his position.

I had similar thoughts about this; I didn't like mhsmith's half-hearted defense of Jester at all, where he acknowledged Jester's early play sucked but claimed he was "improving" after like one or two questions that weren't town at all. I don't think it makes either more likely scum individually, but it would make me a lot more confident about getting mhsmith if jester flipped scum.

[pieguyn]

Parama seems to be dead set on lynching the two pairs I think are town/town, plus S_S.

this does not do anything to help calm down my paranoia of them, especially if S_S is town.

[pieguyn]

Spoiler: for HS

there was one time when I had this random god-mode run on waxing and wanding SPH (LV10) and ended up with a score of AAA+10. as someone who feels mostly comfortable passing 10s and maybe an 11 here or there back when I played all the time, but isn't at the level where I can play them accurately (depending on how hard it is usually A~AA range. the best I had done on that chart previously was like AAA-70 or somewhere around there), I couldn't believe WTF happened.

[pieguyn]

inb4 people try to open that and they have no idea what the hell I'm talking about

[pieguyn]

Rhythm games, just s click away
Ez

we do not talk about that particular rhythm game.

or rather, we could but it would inevitably end in me going on a several-page-long rant about how degenerate it's become.

[pieguyn]

I actually mapped something and got it ranked about a year ago, then a friend of mine who played it straight up told me it was the only map she enjoyed the entire year, then most of the other people who played it felt the same way (comments ranged from "beautiful" to "it's great" to "orgasm because the map fits the song perfectly in 2016"). the whole time all I could think was "my secret is really easy, unlike 90% of 2015 people I actually know how to make maps that fit the song".

I kinda feel like mapping something again (it'd probably be one of the two sister songs to the one I mapped before), but then every single rational cell in my brain reminds me of how horrible of an idea that would be.

2014 style, represent.

p-edit: osu!, and for your own safety, if you currently play the game regularly run the fuck away from it ASAP.

[pieguyn]

anyway lololol derailing a mafia game by turning it into a rhythm game thread. I should probably shut up now.

[pieguyn]

ya this has gone on for way too long.

I want to look through this game mhsmith is talking about (even though I don't know if I'll get anything from it. I am not particularly good with cold meta), but who here disagrees with just chain lynching Jester -> mhsmith0 -> S_S and going from there?

I'm pretty sure all three of these pairs are widely marked for death and aren't making it to endgame in any universe, but we continue to sit here trying to argue about a singular best lynch from all of them.

seriously, who here disagrees with this?

[pieguyn]

Then help consolidate down to two wagons, either by pushing harder for jester or by self-voting. Or you could game throw by leaving the game like you occassionally hint at wanting to do.

in addition to what Nahdia said, I just cannot believe that a mhsmith who is reading the game and thinking critically posts this.

like his posts are just all off and I want to attribute it to him being scum who doesn't need to think critically or scum hunt, just pick posts and invent reasonable-sounding comments to make in response to them.

[pieguyn]

I feel bad that both Kagami and Nahdia are saying they want to lynch mhsmith but they don't want to because they don't want to kill me before intermission. :/

regardless, even if people choose not to lynch my pair for some reason, there is 0% chance mhsmith survives this game with me as his partner. I agree with not suiciding now but if it gets to 6p or 4p, it's the first thing I'm doing.

[pieguyn]

god mhsmith's posts on this page.

if anyone wondered why I was calling him "cagey and defensive", this is why. I'm pretty sure most people are in agreement by now, though.

[pieguyn]

Pie: "Yeah guys this whole thing has just dragged"

Pie then does nothing with/about that statement, whether pushing harder on jester, making an active attempt to dismantle the arguments against shadow-maria wagon, or vote her partner. But sure, it's scummy of me to tell her to actually bother doing something about her complaint instead of just dumping it on the table and leaving it there. Sure it is.

see, if you were town you would realize that I've been complaining that a lot of what's been going on in this game has been unproductive since... practically the start of the game.

it has nothing to do with me suiciding or not and I think that really is completely obvious from an objective POV. and you would also realize that I have been on record multiple times as saying that debating a singular best lynch is stupid and that it's far more productive to identify pairs that are town and lynch everyone else indiscriminately - you are not reading critically at all if you somehow are making the posts you have been making on this page

[pieguyn]

there is absolutely no fucking way you're town.

like legit, there is absolutely no fucking way you're town if you actually just made these posts.

[pieguyn]

I'm starting to feel like this is some weird-ass deflection shit a la what Cakez did re: The MM D1 in yuri mafia.

for anyone who isn't named Nahdia: I feel like mhsmith knows he's not surviving to endgame and is hoping to distract everyone from another scum lynch that's currently on the table that has a greater chance of surviving (Jester or someone in S_S' pair).

[pieguyn]

yeah, now you're being deliberately dense so I'm not continuing this conversation

[pieguyn]

serious question: how much of the game have you read?

[pieguyn]

Some of it I've read carefully, some of it I've skimmed. I doubt I could give you an exact answer as to which is which. What's the relevance of that question?

you would absolutely know why your "you're not voting the largest wagon even though your aim is to lynch all the non-town pairs" isn't applicable to me if you had read the game (or even skimmed it, probably, since the post where I explained it was very easy to parse).

the only way you'd push this as town is if you literally just straight up missed my post where I explained why I don't want to lynch our pair right at this second.

[pieguyn]

Also how could you miss the point discussed from 2305? You say that she's bound be be called out for potential BS and yet she HASNT been called out and even questioned for the lack of push on me, which basically invalidates your point.

So far there seems to be no curiosity about why she isn't pushing me, so why would you think it's "inevitable" that scum!her would get pushback if it's a bs'd thing?

Also how could you miss the point discussed from 2305? You say that she's bound be be called out for potential BS and yet she HASNT been called out and even questioned for the lack of push on me, which basically invalidates your point.

So far there seems to be no curiosity about why she isn't pushing me, so why would you think it's "inevitable" that scum!her would get pushback if it's a bs'd thing?

No I didn't understand what you said in 2305...

Anyway what I was originally saying was that if scum are saying (we'll use me as an example):

"I really have no idea who is scum anymore seriously I really think inspector is scum"

now compare that sentence with something like:

"I think mhsmith, MDS, shadow are scum. Even Dunn and Jester to a lesser degree I can see as scum. I also seriously have my doubts about inspector idk I really think he could be scum."

Now, which of those two sentences sounds more scummy?

If you have a lot of scumreads and you add your partner, it just looks like scum who's looking for town points by ~kinda~ scumreading their partner.

If a scum barely has any reads, they'll try to use bs to justify a read somewhere else, they don't want one of their few reads on their partner, because then later on they have to put up or shut up with their scumread on their partner. And that is disadvantageous for scum because then they'll have to be pushing against their pairing.

Therefore, what Pie said reads more coming from a townie mindset, as I don't see scum making that post.

The problem with that idea is "later on". Pie hasn't positioned herself for a lengthy run here, which means that if she's a wolf, she's probably either going to try and get through a couple more mislynches before she goes, or she's willing to get bussed for town credit.

So "pie not playing to be the deep wolf" is I think probably accurate, but that doesn't actually make her town. I can see the argument that it comes more from a town mindset, but the fact remains the she HASNT gotten a push on that issue, which means that it's reasonably likely that she won't get flak in the very near future.

Ps the large quantity of posts in the game so far gives decent odds of that one being forgotten later on as well, which means that it'd be a very effective wolf post if from a wolf, but isn't disqualifying.

for the record, the only reason I'm on The_Jester and not mhsmith0 is that I'd like a chance to be able to discuss reads with Kagami with a scum flip on the table (and Nahdia if they're still alive).

if we lynch The_Jester (likely regardless of what he flips), or if we get a scum flip somewhere else, or if Kagami decides to ditch me and go ahead and vote us, then I likely will self vote (and SAD is correct that this approach kills me if I'm scum, since once one of these things happens I really have no option but to invent some reason to push someone else and I look like obvscum).

So you scumread your partner and they are your preferred lynch?

based on reads, I think they're the likeliest to flip scum, yes. situationally, not my #1 lynch choice because of what I said in my last post, but that goes away very soon.

Who are the most likely T/T pairs at this moment?

mhsmith0 feels really fucking off and I'm honestly considering a self vote because that's the only thing I feel even half-strongly about this game. I hated most of his posts in the past 10 or so pages, especially after GE flipping town.

I still think The_Jester is likely scum, too, but I'm not certain about it.

I still think SAD/inspectorscout is the most town pair. I think Dunn/Kagami is probably also town/town, but I'm not 100%.

I largely just want this day to end at this point. I'm ok with any of {jester/MDS, mhsmith0/me, no lynch}.

vote: The_Jester/MDS

your pair excluded

Where is shadow/Maria then? Nowhere on your radar even though they've been the primary topic of conversation for so long? Are they simply...not most likely scum, but not likely enough to be town?

I am not going to lie, I have mostly just skimmed every single thing related to them because it hasn't helped me at all in terms of getting strong reads (there are posts that I might read either way but as I said I'm not interested in forming detail reads on everyone, I'm interested in consolidating town reads on a pair where I'm strongly town reading both players). it's just endless back and forths.

I recall not finding the case on S_S compelling, but I don't have any particular strong town read on him and I have no read on Maria.

Hmm. Got it. Thanks pie!

@scout:
It looks like youv only had one scum game on site (excluding marathon)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
And that was as a hydra. Is that correct?

Just isod both scout and sad, they're probably a town pair, especially if THAT was scouts only scum game on record.

He's been tonally fine, content seems fine too, ditto most of his questions (apparently I'd found the really shitty one when I was on earlier).

Sad is super aggressive in a fairly hard to fake way, especially if he's been gone for years. Where he's been wrong it's more of an "I'm being an asshole" kind of wrong as opposed to using it to strongarm lynches or advance a partuclar agenda that I can see. 1721 was a good example of a town post, not for the content so much as for the contemptuous tone and the lack of an agenda, I.e. He's showing clear disgust with the game state, and it's being demonstrated rather than just stated, and it reads much more like an hijest expression of disgust than something played up for the crowd to create a TR.

YOU ARE LITERALLY STRAIGHT UP FUCKING LYING.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY YOU'RE NOT AWARE OF WHY I PREFER A JESTER LYNCH OVER A LYNCH ON YOU. YOU WERE LITERALLY HERE, READING AND RESPONDING TO THE CURRENT POSTS IN THE GAME, AS I POSTED IT. YOU READ MY POSTS ON THE PAGE DIRECTLY BEFORE THIS WHERE I SAID SAD/INSPECTORSSCOUT WAS A TOWN PAIR, AND I KNOW THIS BECAUSE YOU FUCKING *AGREED* WITH IT.

ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING WAY.

YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHY I SHOULDN'T SUICIDE ON YOU RIGHT THE FUCK NOW.

[pieguyn]

And you're not doing much work to find town-town pairs OTHER THAN sad/scout, despite the idea that finding a town/town pair is, to you, supposedly super important.

This is such bullshit garbage. Not only do you only need one town/town pair that you feel really confident about to win, this isn't even true (anyone reading the game should be able to tell that I also think Kagami/Dunn is town/town).

[pieguyn]

And you're not doing much work to find town-town pairs OTHER THAN sad/scout, despite the idea that finding a town/town pair is, to you, supposedly super important.

This is such bullshit garbage. Not only do you only need one town/town pair that you feel really confident about to win, this isn't even true (anyone reading the game should be able to tell that I also think Kagami/Dunn is town/town).

Moreover, you *AGREED* with SAD/inspectorscout being town/town, so I have no idea why you're attempting to complain about it.

[pieguyn]

Like, you literally are just straight up not thinking critically at all if you actually believe these posts.

[pieguyn]

And go on, feel free to explain why you're attempting to spin that "I'm pushing you without voting you" when you know full fucking well the reason I prefer a Jester lynch over a lynch on us if I have the option for it.

[pieguyn]

And how much work have you actually done to prove that read? You've done a bit on kagami, and basically zero on dunn other than you saying you think the pair is town/town. So "people can tell I think it" and "I've actually done the work to prove it and convince others" are completely different, and I can assure you that you haven't done the second.

Yes, because saying "if you all decide to lynch us let me know so I can talk about why I think SAD/inspectorscout is town/town" means I clearly have no interest in convincing anyone of either of these reads.

And you're being deliberately dense again. You know just as well as I do that this is a very chaotic game that is almost impossible to keep up with (which, surprise, why do you think I want a scum flip and the intermission before I cut myself off again?). I've been doing what I could, in terms of poking people at various points in the game and discussing reads with them, but acting like I should somehow be able to sway everyone over to my point of view in this game state is disingenuous and you know better than that.

[pieguyn]

And yet you just threatened to suicide right? Because it's a perfectly normal town perspective to be like "I don't want to actually lynch my pair, but suiciding works great as an option" right?

Holy _fuck_, you cannot be serious.

[pieguyn]

Like you're just flooding the thread with bullshit now and hoping people accept it as truth without thinking critically about it.

I'm stepping away.

[pieguyn]

Forget over the top effort, just show me where you've done ANY legitimate work on that dunn read of yours. "I read him town" doesn't count. If you're confident on that townread you should have backup for it. So far you don't, unless I've totally missed it.

literally everyone besides like you and Parama already believes Dunn is town. I don't give a shit about you, you're scum, and I don't think Parama's meandering paranoia will go anywhere.

what exactly is your point here again?

[pieguyn]

Those three things together lead to some pretty strange conclusions, unless of course the suicide threat was just a stunt.

so you did think I was serious. good to know!

[pieguyn]

you are scared that I will randomly suicide at some point and there's nothing you can do to stop it, so you hard push this "OMG SUICING SUCH GAMETHROW" really really really really hard because you think calling it suboptimal will make me apprehensive to doing it and the possibility that I'm wrong about it.

[pieguyn]

Like even then this entire angle is also bullshit.

I made 3328 (the post where I threatened to suicide again)

IN RESPONSE TO

all of your posts saying it was odd that I had my vote on Jester. Me wanting to "suicide" has absolutely, absolutely nothing to do with any of this, so no, it isn't a "strange" progression.

You tried to nitpick my choice of votes, despite the fact that you were clearly aware of why I have my vote on Jester. Answer that or abscond.

[pieguyn]

Like every time I read an mhsmith post and go "ehh this is not bad" pie then dismantles it in such a logical way there is no way scum would be taking such a self destructive play.

no shit I'm town.

if you lynch Jester with me, then mhsmith dies first thing D2, S_S dies from there and we can end this madness.

[pieguyn]

yeah you're not even reading my posts, you're just doubling down on this "your choice of votes is bizarre" angle because you know you're utterly fucked if you admit you were aware of why I want to lynch where I do

[pieguyn]

Of course I'm aware of the logic you posted. I even quoted it. I just find it non convincing, especially since I don't see the obvscum on jester. Maybe you should recase him since that's in your mind the optimal lynch right now? Because it seems like you're more interested in justifying why you're on jester than you are in actually proving he's scum.

I have literally already made the case on Jester to you in our PT. Holy fuck you cannot be this dense.

[pieguyn]

Like at this point I think you're just doing this hoping to take me out of the game, nightkill Nahdia's pair who also supports a Jester lynch, and then just hope that his pair reaches endgame. You are literally just blatantly lying here.

[pieguyn]

Like you literally have no answer for why you'd attempt to nitpick my choice of votes despite being aware of why I'm voting the way I am.

You literally are just blatantly dodging the question.

[pieguyn]

You just keep repeating "durr it's still a bizarre choice of votes!". You cannot be so dense that you see me approaching the game in a way different from what you think is standard (the idea of voting your strongest scum read) and just write it off as that it clearly has to be because I'm scum.

[pieguyn]

You made a case, it was an ok case, not an obvscum case (and its been a while since you even discussed it there). So work harder if you truly believe in it. Going to dinner be back soon.

Literally none of this is an answer for anything I've said.

Why would I need to recase someone whose play has not changed at all since I first cased him? He has continued to to literally fucking nothing and your defense of him is terrible.

[pieguyn]

Like holy fuck you are just flooding the game with nonsense in an effort to distract everyone from the Jester lynch.

[pieguyn]

Like you literally are just nitpicking over this.

In addition to what I said before - this is a really chaotic game that I largely can't keep up with - I am not so ridiculously invested in a Jester lynch to where I'd put significant effort into derailing a lynch on you to achieve it, especially given my mindset this game. If people want to lynch out of order, oh well. It'd take a very high amount of effort to convince people who are largely sold on you or S_S to lynch Jester, despite you being likely scum and S_S being a reasonable chance of hitting scum, and while I like a Jester lynch because it gives me some more time to think about things after the game has slowed down a bit and talk about my reads with Kagami, that isn't such a significant advantage to where I absolutely need it.

But that doesn't change the fact that I like a Jester lynch more than a lynch on you or S_S, am going to vote there, and will do what I can to get people to vote with me.

[pieguyn]

The jester lynch has completely stalled out, so if you're serious about then clearly you need to be doing more work to actually make it happen, but instead you're putting more effort into bitching about me calling you out for your lack of effort there than you actually are putting effort into making that lynch happen since you're supposedly so serious about it.

Yeah you're not town.

Like god you literally cannot be this fucking dismissive.

[pieguyn]

If you're town, please kindly just shut the fuck up, calm down for a bit, and then come back and look at this later.

My mindset is 100% consistent and the only way I can see this push coming from you as town is if you're just completely tilted and not thinking rationally at all.

[pieguyn]

And yet your theory is that I'm scum making some kind of bizarre as fuck play to defend jester, even though in that case my flip would almost certainly doom him. Which strikes me as a completely made up theory that's nonsensical in this game state.

You *still not answering the question which I have repeated three fucking times now* is noted.

[pieguyn]

And yet your theory is that I'm scum making some kind of bizarre as fuck play to defend jester, even though in that case my flip would almost certainly doom him. Which strikes me as a completely made up theory that's nonsensical in this game state.

Because, as you said: the Jester wagon has stalled out and if me and Nahdia are gone there will be no one left to push it through?

This is simple fucking shit.

[pieguyn]

Like MDS is over there hard defending Jester for some ~cosmic reason~. It isn't unreasonable at all to assume that you might have a good shot at reaching endgame with that, since she won't ever suicide or vote him, so it comes down to them just dodging the lynch until endgame.

[pieguyn]

But that doesn't make any sense. No ones really listening to mds, and "let's lynch mds-jester, smith-pie, shadow-Maria in some order" doesn't seem likely at all to die out after another lynch or two in a different direction, barring a couple town flips where town starts to tinfoil about the collective game state read having been massively wrong).

Like, in a world where shadow/Maria is town, I'm scum and jester is scum, then even given a shadow/Maria mislynch, it's pretty likely that me and jester are next to fall (especially given the first red flip).

Holy fucking shit.

1. You cannot say that the Jester wagon has "stalled out" and then say this.

AND

2. If you think that Jester is pretty much going to happen regardless of what happens today, then you have ABSOLUTELY NO reason to take issue with me not being completely invested in securing the Jester lynch right at this point in the game, as long as it'll happen at some point or another.

You are blatantly contradicting yourself, and this is why I cannot see your thought processes coming from a town POV.

[pieguyn]

And point 2 is more so the case when I have expressed many many many times that this is not a game where I can easily keep up, take control of the game, and sway the momentum in a significant way. You think that I should put more effort into the game than I'm capable of reasonably doing, in order to lynch someone who is only slightly better than any of the other lynch candidates on the table, despite the fact that they're almost certainly going to get lynched at some point anyway?

[pieguyn]

And yes, I absolutely could see everyone just forgetting about Jester after the me/Nahdia/Kagami bloc is no longer around to push it.

I've seen much, much worse happen in games.

[pieguyn]

you literally have not read anything I've posted at all if you believe what you wrote in 3380 is correct. at all.

I understand you're scum and you need to obfuscate, but christ it's getting annoying.

[pieguyn]

the difference between me and you is I could probably write a response to 3380 consisting entirely of things I've already said in all of my other posts. you, on the other hand, ignore it because you need to look like you've found some point that you have strong conviction in believing, even though all it is is you nitpicking, and then act dismissive towards me when I point out why it's nitpicking.

[pieguyn]

if you're town?

please, for the love of god, just step back and actually read what you're saying and think about it. the way you're acting towards me is straight up pissing me off and I don't see why you would do this unless you're attempting to rile me up deliberately - it is obvious that this wouldn't help you sort me.

[pieguyn]

it is 2312.

[pieguyn]

pie is expecting mhsmith to have the memory of a robot and remember an arbitrary post over a thousand posts ago (yes i saw it now ignore my last post)

thing is when I pointed this post out to him, he didn't factor it into his read and readjust as if he forgot it. instead, he doubled down on it and started calling attention to my suicide threat, which I made at the same time as I pointed out the post (despite him attempting to spin me threatening suicide as a reason for why he's pushed me over my read progression...) in order to misdirect - and no, "I thought she was serious" is not an acceptable excuse, since I clarified that I wasn't, and he still kept calling attention to it even after I had clarified it.

that i actually do agree that pie strongly scumreading smith while voting elsewhere and only threatening to suicide (which, by her own reasoning, goes against the reason she doesn't want to lynch her own pair right away)

again, I wasn't ever going to suicide - but even outside of that, you don't always vote your strongest scum read. you might vote elsewhere for strategic reasons, or vote elsewhere to call attention to someone else, and in my case, I'm voting elsewhere because 1. mhsmith is never making it to endgame anyway, and 2. I like a Jester lynch for what it does to the gamestate, in terms of being able to discuss reads with certain people with the additional info gained.

mhsmith attempting to say there is something wrong with this boils down to the fact that I'm playing in a way that he doesn't accept, hence I'm scum. and he's not so dense and/or arrogant that he would think this is a valid argument.

[pieguyn]

another issue, come to think about it, is that despite "you haven't been doing any work to actually prove or push any of your reads" being a huge cornerstone of his entire interaction with me earlier, mhsmith really hasn't had any strong pushes this game.

the last votes I remember from him were on Jester, forever ago, S_S, and me. outside of the vote on me, none of these votes were really backed by anything or any sort of strong push that indicated he wanted to make the wagon he was on into anything - and he seemed to be pretty OK with the idea of switching back and forth between wagons just for the sake of wagons/getting a lynch (i.e. his vote on S_S in 2936). he seems to think Dunn's push on him is thoroughly bullshit, but he isn't generating discussion about it (outside of him just asking "thoughts on Dunn" a few times) or trying to call attention to exactly what Dunn is pushing him for that he should know better than to push... usually, if someone is making a disingenuous push on you, you're all over it, you want to highlight it for everyone to see so they don't forget about it, and on top of that, Dunn *has* been a viable option for a counterwagon for quite a while now - why *doesn't* he vote and try to get a push started on that if he's so convinced Dunn is B? he seems to be so convinced Dunn is BS'ing and is capable enough to where he's completely incapable of seeing why other people might have difficulty launching a push in this game

also, his really half-assed vote on Jester, which preceded his S_S vote by approximately ... 100 posts ... is a part of why I suspect they could be scum together

[pieguyn]

EBWOP

another issue, come to think about it, is that despite "you haven't been doing any work to actually prove or push any of your reads" being a huge cornerstone of his entire interaction with me earlier, mhsmith really hasn't had any strong pushes this game.

the last votes I remember from him were on Jester, forever ago, S_S, and me. outside of the vote on me, none of these votes were really backed by anything or any sort of strong push that indicated he wanted to make the wagon he was on into anything - and he seemed to be pretty OK with the idea of switching back and forth between wagons just for the sake of wagons/getting a lynch (i.e. his vote on S_S in 2936). he seems to think Dunn's push on him is thoroughly bullshit, but he isn't generating discussion about it (outside of him just asking "thoughts on Dunn" a few times) or trying to call attention to exactly what Dunn is pushing him for that he should know better than to push... usually, if someone is making a disingenuous push on you, you're all over it, you want to highlight it for everyone to see so they don't forget about it, and on top of that, Dunn *has* been a viable option for a counterwagon for quite a while now - why *doesn't* he vote and try to get a push started on that if he's so convinced Dunn is BS'ing? he seems to be capable enough to where he's completely incapable of seeing why other people might have difficulty launching a push in this game...

also, his really half-assed vote on Jester, which preceded his S_S vote by approximately ... 100 posts ... is a part of why I suspect they could be scum together

p-edit: I still have posts I want to make and I think Kagami is town. I'll get back to you in a sec.

[pieguyn]

honestly, I've reread my interaction with mhsmith earlier now that I've had some time to calm down and think about it and I still don't think my criticisms of him are unreasonable at all.

first off, to put the context for all of this in one place, I've made it pretty clear at this point that I don't find it productive to sit here and argue about a single best lynch - I want to identify pairs that are town and lynch the remaining pairs, so as long as this gets accomplished, I don't care *too* much about what order we lynch and thus who gets lynched right at this point in the game. my preference for Jester is purely positional, so that I can talk reads with Kagami and/or Nahdia after what is hopefully a scum flip and the intermission, after the game has calmed down a bit, but I won't cry tears of blood if the lynch lands on someone else unless significant pressure starts to build on a pair I think is very town. there is also that this game is really fucking chaotic and it is very difficult to keep on top of it at the level required to create significant momentum sway, and I don't want to exhaust myself unless I really really need to, aka one of the pairs I think is very town becomes a potential lynch, which also plays into my choice of strategy here.

I think this is really really obvious if anyone has so much has read my posts in this game. there is absolutely nothing I've said that indicates I'm approaching this game in any other way and I do not believe that this approach is unreasonable at all. so what happened?

first, mhsmith comes in here and criticizes me for wanting to lynch Jester despite having a stronger scum read on him - if you read 3302, this is apparently supposed to be some smoking gun that gives him reason to vote me. when I point out that I had already said why I want a Jester lynch over a lynch on him, he ignores it and tries to say that "I'm not pushing Jester hard enough" or "I'm not working hard enough to derail the S_S wagon", so it's invalid.

then I come in and express that I don't think there is any way he'd be this oblivious to my approach as town, and that he should have been aware of the reason I want a Jester lynch and to make this push anyway despite knowing that is disingenuous.

Note: This is where I threatened to suicide on him.

what he said after that has basically amounted to

- not doing enough to push Jester or derail S_S again. when I try to explain to him that I don't have much of a reason for doing either of these things, he ignores me and continues to push that I need to be doing more anyway.

- not doing enough to "prove" either of my town reads - again, when I try to explain to him that Dunn isn't anywhere near lynch, he ignores me and continues to push that I should explain it anyway, and moreover, he's agreed with me on SAD/scout (he almost certainly response to me saying SAD/rscout is town/town over and over), so I have no idea why he even complained about this.

- he tries to continue to push me choosing to vote Jester as odd, and if you look at 3341, he

uses me suiciding as a reason for my read on Jester being off.

see, Parama said mhsmith might have missed or forgot about why I'm approaching the game the way I am, and that's fine, but if you've forgot something, you don't fucking make this response when someone points out what you missed. there's no acknowledgement of what I said there - he read what I said and didn't back down, which he would not do if he accepted my explanation, which means he tried to use me threatening to suicide as some reason that what I was saying about my read progression wasn't valid, which is a disingenuous response because all of this stuff about threatening to suicide came *after* everything I said or did about Jester, not before it. I've asked for a response to this three or four times, nothing.

- me suiciding not making sense given my approach to the game - when I clarified that I wasn't serious about it, he ignored me and continued to say "I don't really trust you and your constant threats to suicide" anyway.

- continuing to needle me over "not doing enough", despite the fact I had explained it several times.

...

this is not fucking town. every single time I attempt to explain to him how what he's pointing out fits in with how I'm playing this game on a general level, he ignores me, and finds some trivial thing to nitpick over to make it look like he has a point. when I try to explain to him why it isn't necessary for me to do more in this game, he ignores me and says "you've still done nothing, you need to do more" (in contrast to this, I explained my approach to Maria after she started poking me and she understood my play immediately). when I try to explain to him why I prefer a Jester lynch over a lynch on him, he starts going on a tangent about "oh, your case on Jester isn't that good, you should rehash the case", despite this not having anything to do with my point and despite him not attempting to argue at any point in the game why Jester wasn't a good lynch (I've told him the Jester posts he called town weren't town in our PT, no response). he is not attempting to understand my mindset here at all: what he is doing is reading my posts sequentially, finding things to nitpick over in each one in order to make it look like he has a point, but he isn't trying to grasp how it all connects together and actually understand anything I'm doing, he's just interested in creating a gigantic argument that people read and go "o, this is town/town!".

this also fits with my assessment of his posts and how he has played this game in general, in that they all just seem really shallow and like he's floating through the thread, commenting on whatever is going on at the time but not displaying any depth of thought that indicates he's actually game solving here.

[pieguyn]

I'm aware that post is somewhat long, but seriously read it, I don't think it's difficult to parse at all.

and at this point, mhsmith, I feel I have made it completely obvious where I'm coming from with my play this game - if you're town then you need to read and figure out where you somehow ended up with this huge misunderstanding of my play.

[pieguyn]

are you voting dunn/kagami pie? if not we should start a bw together

can you remind me of what your read on Jester was?

I still feel pretty sure that Kagami is town, and if mhsmith is scum, Dunn is very likely town too.

[pieguyn]

I've actually seriously considered the possibility none of the ladies are scum.

have you seen my posts about Kagami from earlier this game day? it was a while back so if you want I can link it again, but a lot of what I had wrote at that point still applies now, I think.

[pieguyn]

specifically 2537.

I'm not really sure what else to say except I've played a lot with Kagami and, uh, I guess I'm just kinda hoping you're open to thinking about it? if not oh well I guess.

[pieguyn]

I'd definitely be open to looking at her again later, if it becomes relevant (especially if I'm just wrong on Jester and/or mhsmith which would mean Kagami has essentially supported the lynch of three town/town pairs which would be a huge red flag), but as of now I don't have any reason to take issue with her play.

p-edit: .-.

also, scum distribution is entirely random, it has nothing to do with gentleman/lady distribution. 3 gentlemen scum or 3 lady scum is easily possible.

[pieguyn]

also, scum distribution is entirely random, it has nothing to do with gentleman/lady distribution. 3 gentlemen scum or 3 lady scum is easily possible.

actually, let's just make it easy

@MOD: this is true, correct?

[pieguyn]

Sorry for asking so many questions but how do you feel about Ser I feel like I'm one of the only people here who would happily lynch his slot.

SAD/scout is the pair I feel is the most town. <_>

[pieguyn]

That wasn't the point on 3302. In 3302, Smith pointed out a clear contradiction in your spoken intention and your actions in thread. You told us you would lynch anybody you thought wasn't t/t indiscriminately, yet you put your vote on Jester/MDS, the smallest wagon with the lowest chance of reaching a lynch. Then he votes you, not because he scumreads you, but because you clearly scumread him quite powerfully and it puts the wagon on par for the largest one. He was testing whether you would jump on and follow through with your accusations, probably partly to understand and sort your slot better, because scum clearly wouldn't go along with this out of survivalism.

I did say I'd lynch pairs I didn't think were town indiscriminately, but I also thought I had made it clear why, if given the choice, I'd want a Jester lynch from all the non-town pairs. when mhsmith started to push this, it was the first thing I brought up and he still continued to push it even after seeing it.

how do you reconcile that?

[pieguyn]

as for the possibility of him misunderstanding something about my posts, that's kinda why I made that post summarizing the entirety of my half of the interaction. I think it's pretty fucking clear my mindset here isn't incongruous at all and I don't want any sort of he-said she-said misunderstanding going on.

also, you should probably vote Jester if you don't want to see me/mhsmith lynched.

[pieguyn]

getting town reads really doesn't require that much effort. it isn't like I need to go out of my way to question them or extract information from them or get them to clarify the motivation behind their posts, not in the same way I would need to question and poke at a scum read, unless they suddenly flip and do something really bad, which at the very least neither of SAD/scout have done - and it like I need to go out of my way to "push" them unless they're in serious danger of being lynched or I have reason to believe they'll be in serious danger of being lynched in the future.

I'm mostly just doing what I think I can do without exhausting myself. it's really subtle but it is there - see interactions like the one I just had with Maria where I poked her to consider the Kagami read a bit more (even if the way I'm playing is not particularly overt, the key point here is to get people at least thinking about things a bit more for when it does become more relevant later).

and yeah, if someone is trying to sort me, I usually would expect that they've attempted to read and understand my posts and wouldn't just blatantly miss or forget something that seems that relevant to the angle they want to push.

I guess I kind of want to just wait for him to see my wall post directed to him, because I want to be absolutely absolutely sure there is no room for him not understanding where I'm coming from when I tell him that his push on me holds no water.

[pieguyn]

god holy fuck I felt so sure about this before but now I just have this sick gross feeling that he just tried to sort me in the most half-assed way possible and that despite that and his play the rest of the game being as bad and defensive and deflective as it has been he's going to somehow be town.

fuck these dance games, they always do this to me.

can you remind me of why you had a town read on him outside of recent pages?

[pieguyn]

he's posted pro-town information that only helps town, i mentioned this earlier.

this definitely is not a town tell. I feel mostly sure he would have talked about it the exact same way as scum since it's very easy for scum to genuinely discuss theory and how frustrating and awful it'd be if people were to go against the correct theory play.

if I was to town read him, it'd probably be on the basis of your third point - all the attention he's attracted - but I just don't even know because I don't think Kagami is scum and I really just don't think mariar looks like scum, so I don't know what scum would be designating this except if I have him and Dunn backwards and Dunn is scum.

[pieguyn]

I don't really think it's a towncred thing or a positional thing, I think if he's scum he's mostly just latched onto it as an easy talking point because it's something he would have thought as town.

[pieguyn]

why don't people want to lynch Jester?

has he done something town?

has he done *literally fucking anything*?

why in god's green earth does anyone think he's town???

I'll help with S_S/Maria if it really comes down to it, but Jester first, plesae, please.

[pieguyn]

he has not even attempted to do anything at all over the course of this entire game. he has had no serious pushes, besides his push on you right at the very start of the game which was thoroughly awful, and after that he's basically just faded away and done nothing besides sheeping what are basically near-consensus scum reads (GE and Kagami).

what about that do you read as town?

[pieguyn]

and people wonder why I think Jester-scum implies mhsmith-scum.

p-edit: HS vote Jester with me.

[pieguyn]

you, Kagami, Maria means we would have 7/8.

[pieguyn]

So basically she's a lot like Titus. Which I suppose would have been useful to know about 100 pages ago.

you're trolling me, right?

[pieguyn]

I don't mean to say your assessment of my tone is wrong. in fact, it's pretty accurate and I'm a bit relieved that you've come to the realization that I'm a much more pragmatic scum player who knows as scum how to avoid the intense situations that I usually get into when I'm town. I just have no idea how I feel that of all the people to compare me to, you picked _Titus_. -.-

are you going to address my 3422? the purpose of the post was largely that if you're town, you should be able to read it and see my explanation for my play this game all in one place and reconcile where you were going wrong with the read on me - I still have no understanding of why, in the first place, you actually found my approach scummy.

[pieguyn]

oh god, I do not even want to talk about my history with Titus soul-reads.

I used to have a 100% rate reading her (albeit not for the same reason you seem to use), then in one game she pushed a bunch of ridiculous stuff that was completely incomprehensible to the point where I thought it was impossible anyone would think it as town, I lynched her D1 claiming 100% accuracy, she was town. I would have been lynched the next day if not for my hydra partner being even more readable than I am.

[pieguyn]

it's usually a scum tell for her, if you evaluate based on my model of reasonability!

[pieguyn]

also, mhsmith, who do you want to lynch?

you seem to no longer want to lynch me. you don't want to lynch Jester, despite acknowledging that he's more scummy than not. there are only 20 hours left. so, who?

[pieguyn]

... WTF, you cannot possibly be this oblivious.

everything I've done this game has been completely congruous with my mindset this game, which I explained in full in the first paragraph of that post. I specifically told you that what I wanted you to do was read that, try to think about my play this game and what I wrote in the first paragraph of the post and understand why I've been playing the way I have been, and then once you understood it, if you read the rest of the post, you'd be able to see that from my POV, our interaction read like you nitpicking me over a bunch of stuff that should have been pretty clearly wrong in hindsight.

I cannot comprehend how, instead of doing this, your response is to PBPA the entire interaction again and try to act like your push on me still holds water. because that sure as hell doesn't seem like a town response - what it seems like is that you're afraid to admit your push on me was wrong, for fear that you'll look bad over it, so you still try to act like your points hold water.

how on earth do you possibly think that basically repeating the entire interaction, just in one post, will help each other understand where we're coming from? it didn't then and it won't now, and the only conclusion I can draw is that you are not trying to understand why I'm playing the way I am at all.

also, the case on Jester is a perfectly fine case. he has done literally fucking nothing, and it isn't just about the fact he isn't posting - it's the fact that even when he *has* been here, his posts have been completely awful. he has no fucking scum reads outside of what are pretty much consensus scum reads on GE, Kagami, and you if you're town. he has not attempted to actually poke at anyone, probe anyone for information, or actually accomplish anything in the game. that isn't town, no matter how you look at it - town might be inactive but they still try to scum hunt *when* they actually show up to the game thread.

[pieguyn]

the entire reason I reacted so strongly to you pushing me was specifically *because* you were making a huge deal over things that held no water, and I had absolutely no idea how you could have thought so little about how my strategy this game tied into how I was playing. that's the reason I wanted to make the that post. I wanted to collect all my thoughts in one place, so that you could understand my play and why I came on so strongly in response to you and figure out how you ended up disconnecting to that extent with how I was playing this game.

how does just PBPA'ing the entire interaction again help with this? all you did was basically just say the exact same thing you said across those 2 pages, just in 1 post.

you don't seem to be demonstrating that you actually want to think about your points on me at all.

[pieguyn]

and I'm aware that you meta-dived me and shit, but in my experience it is so, so, so easy for scum to genuinely make meta reads on town players and genuinely town read people via meta, so while I think it does lean very slightly on the town side it's nowhere near a solid town tell, especially when it does make sense as a last-ditch scum play to try and get town read and then find some reason to flip off of pushing me.

if you think this is paranoid, work with me here. show that you actually give a fuck about sorting me and understanding why I've been playing the way I have been.

[pieguyn]

because from where I'm sitting, it really feels like you're not. I tried to explain it as clear as possible and your response was "let me just repeat the entire 2-page interaction again in one post, I'm still not sure why you think my posts were reasonable".

[pieguyn]

first off, to put the context for all of this in one place, I've made it pretty clear at this point that I don't find it productive to sit here and argue about a single best lynch - I want to identify pairs that are town and lynch the remaining pairs, so as long as this gets accomplished, I don't care *too* much about what order we lynch and thus who gets lynched right at this point in the game. my preference for Jester is purely positional, so that I can talk reads with Kagami and/or Nahdia after what is hopefully a scum flip and the intermission, after the game has calmed down a bit, but I won't cry tears of blood if the lynch lands on someone else unless significant pressure starts to build on a pair I think is very town. there is also that this game is really fucking chaotic and it is very difficult to keep on top of it at the level required to create significant momentum sway, and I don't want to exhaust myself unless I really really need to, aka one of the pairs I think is very town becomes a potential lynch, which also plays into my choice of strategy here.

read this paragraph, specifically.

then, look through my ISO, read my posts again, and see if you can reconcile how I'm playing with what I've written in this paragraph.

and no, the aim here is not to get you to town read me. I want to know exactly why you ended up assessing my posts the way you did.

[pieguyn]

wrt Jester, he has under 100 posts. Is it really that hard to look at them and actually get into more substantial detail about why he's being actual scum instead of just shitty or baity?

having absolutely no scum reads whatsoever falls below the territory of bad-town. town might go inactive at some points, but when they don't attempt to make any kind of push on anyone whatsoever even when they are there, that falls below bad-town territory and into scum territory.

and I can't exactly go into more substantial detail about content that _isn't fucking there_. what are you expecting me to do?

[pieguyn]

What is your read on the other person. IN ONE SENTENCE. And rank your lynch/wagon preferences.

null-scum, prefer Jester first, then S_S, then mhsmith.

mhsmith moved up purely because I just don't know and if it really came down to it I'd lynch S_S first so I'd get second dance/intermission to try and get a read on him that I'm more sure of.

[pieguyn]

More specifically, I explained in detail where I was reading you as being posturing or deflecting, and why that made sense at the time. And it absolutely did.

So if your perspective is "Smith needs to actually understand why I'm doing what I'm doing", well, I don't. I don't get it. I don't understand why you're choosing to play in the way that you're choosing to play. I think that your "find one town/town pair and fuck everything else" strategy is anti-town to the point of insanity (what if that pair gets shot? what if you're wrong about that pair? what if town actually takes your advice and sleepwalks right into LYLO and then incorrectly tinfoils about that pair?).

I think that your jester push has been lazy and weakly founded (and think your accusation that my defense of him was bad was even less founded since you've essentially just said "it's bad" without actually explaining why you think it's bad - EBWOP that's essentially it, he's doing nothing. Doing nothing to start with, doing nothing under pressure. He's not trying to fake up "useful" content to buy time, he's literally doing nothing at all, and to me the lynch amounts to "let's get rid of the useless slot that town is just kinda drifting off onto lynching" which does not exactly scream to me "Yeah that slot is super likely scum").

I think that your continual reasons (excuses?) you provide about why you're not doing more (while simultaneously accusing me of being "cagey and defensive) is either opaque or just hypocritical. I think that you're making a conscious choice to not be particularly useful, and it makes you difficult to read (and you yourself have admitted that you're not being as towny as usual), and the fact that I suspect you in that context seems sufficiently unsurprising that your over the top reactions seemed like fake histrionics (before actually meta'ing you to realize that this appears to be completely uncommon for you in particular as a player). I find your lack of interest in substantiating or critically engaging in your dunn/kagami town read bizarre and nearly impossible to understand, unless "I just don't feel like it" is truly the answer.

Shall I go on? Like, I've consistently said what I think and why I think it, especially in my back and forth with you. I truly don't understand what is actually unclear about it. If you want to actually understand what I'm saying, and something is actually unclear, try actually asking about it. Because I've absolutely answered your 3422. If you hand-wave it off as PBPA without critically engaging it, that's on you. If you hand-wave a whole bunch of my posts with responses like

Spoiler:

god mhsmith's posts on this page.

if anyone wondered why I was calling him "cagey and defensive", this is why. I'm pretty sure most people are in agreement by now, though.

there is absolutely no fucking way you're town.

like legit, there is absolutely no fucking way you're town if you actually just made these posts.

yeah, now you're being deliberately dense so I'm not continuing this conversation

Like, you literally are just straight up not thinking critically at all if you actually believe these posts.

And yet you just threatened to suicide right? Because it's a perfectly normal town perspective to be like "I don't want to actually lynch my pair, but suiciding works great as an option" right?

Holy _fuck_, you cannot be serious.

Like you're just flooding the thread with bullshit now and hoping people accept it as truth without thinking critically about it.

I'm stepping away.

yeah you're not even reading my posts, you're just doubling down on this "your choice of votes is bizarre" angle because you know you're utterly fucked if you admit you were aware of why I want to lynch where I do

Of course I'm aware of the logic you posted. I even quoted it. I just find it non convincing, especially since I don't see the obvscum on jester. Maybe you should recase him since that's in your mind the optimal lynch right now? Because it seems like you're more interested in justifying why you're on jester than you are in actually proving he's scum.

I have literally already made the case on Jester to you in our PT. Holy fuck you cannot be this dense.

Like you literally have no answer for why you'd attempt to nitpick my choice of votes despite being aware of why I'm voting the way I am.

You literally are just blatantly dodging the question.

You just keep repeating "durr it's still a bizarre choice of votes!". You cannot be so dense that you see me approaching the game in a way different from what you think is standard (the idea of voting your strongest scum read) and just write it off as that it clearly has to be because I'm scum.

Like holy fuck you are just flooding the game with nonsense in an effort to distract everyone from the Jester lynch.

The jester lynch has completely stalled out, so if you're serious about then clearly you need to be doing more work to actually make it happen, but instead you're putting more effort into bitching about me calling you out for your lack of effort there than you actually are putting effort into making that lynch happen since you're supposedly so serious about it.

Yeah you're not town.

Like god you literally cannot be this fucking dismissive.

then I'm not the one being unclear in my process. And I'm not the one being dismissive either.

so you push me because you disagree with my play style, without even bothering to understand it first.

you are not this arrogant. I refuse to believe you think "she's playing a way that I can't understand, I guess she's doing it because she's scum" is a valid argument.

[pieguyn]

HS, are you reading this?

can you give me a second opinion on something? I want to know if you disagree with me that the paragraph I quoted in 3617 does, in fact, make it 100% absolutely clear why I'm approaching this game the way I am.

I've been assuming that it does. I gave Maria pretty much the same explanation, and she understood my play immediately. I have no idea how someone else can look at it and think "this is completely unintelligible", and this is my issue with how mhsmith is playing.

[pieguyn]

Frankly, and IMO this is pretty disgusting, the only thing I'm really town-reading you for is your emotional involvement, and even THAT came as a result of my push on you that you seem to think was somehow insincere bullshit, even though said argument rests on INCREDIBLY shaky things like "smith has to pretend like he never saw my reasons for acting like i have" (even though i literally quoted them and expressed skepticism) or wacky theories about what (essentially insane) things I might somehow be attempting to do as scum.

OK. it's frankly really terrible of you that every single time I try to walk you through my mindset this game and tell you why I'm approaching various things the way I am, you just handwave dismiss it as "I don't understand it so what you're saying is invalid, my point still stands", too, so I guess we're even.

just because it falls outside of your worldview of things you understand, you act completely incapable of reading my posts and realizing the way I've acted has been commensurate with my stared beliefs in the thread.

[pieguyn]

I second guess whether mhsmith is the type of player who can feign frustration like this, at least. someone who knows mhsmith better than me can confirm or deny this or I can go look at his games myself.

[pieguyn]

EBWOP *stated

[pieguyn]

literally all of our interactions have been me trying to explain to you why I've been playing the way I have been, and then you just respond with what amounts to "I don't understand why you would do this, your explanation is invalid" and you effectively completely ignore my response and continue to push the same thing.

you just assume that if I'm doing something that you don't understand, it's clearly because I must be scum. that is a fucking arrogant mindset and my issue is that I don't know how much I believe you would be that arrogant as town. I don't believe you would truly think that your way of playing is the only valid way of playing and that when I tell you "this is why I'm doing X" and it falls outside of the List of Behaviors mhsmith Thinks is Reasonable, you say I must be scum for it instead of the alternate explanation - that you're just fucking wrong about the way I've chosen to approach the game.

that's where my issue with your play lies.

[pieguyn]

I mean, yes, there are times when someone does something that actually is scummy, or contradicts themselves, and then when you question them about it they don't have a good answer. and in that scenario, yes, you have every right to continue questioning over them.

the difference here is that there is nothing - absolutely nothing - that is contradictory about how I've acted this game. and this is why I fucking hate the way you're interacting with me on a personal level - you don't actually try to think and understand at all, you just say "oh, I've tried to understand and I still don't. that must mean you're scum!".

if you've "tried to understand" and you haven't, then no, it doesn't make me scum, it means you just haven't fucking thought hard enough to actually understand my play.

[pieguyn]

for the record I don't even know if I believe you're scum for this anymore. at this point, I continue to comment on it because the way you're treating me is straight up pissing me off.

[pieguyn]

At literally no point in this game have I said that you must be scum. Literally never. I have on multiple occasions said I suspected you were scum, that your strategy was fakeable, that your explanations were unconvincing, etc.

The person who said the other must be scum? That's what YOU have said. Not me. You.

OK. if you want to argue semantics, replace "say I must be scum" with "say you suspect I'm scum", "say it's fakeable", or "say it's unconvincing" - the logical point is you suspecting me and seriously believing that I'm scum.

I cannot believe that I seriously just had to say this.

[pieguyn]

but if you want to talk about "deflections", you literally just made that post and didn't respond at all to the key point I was attempting to make, so.

[pieguyn]

like legit, there is absolutely no fucking way you're town if you actually just made these posts." and then follow it up with the idea that I have been calling you lock scum instead of the other way around

when this whole thing first started I was thoroughly convinced you were scum, yes, since you were pushing me over things that I assumed you knew better than to push.

after it calmed down a bit, I realized there was probably some misunderstanding going on and I stepped back and made my wall post so that I could collect all of my thoughts in one place, and write them out clearly so that I could be sure that you understood where I was coming from instead of getting caught up blitzing posts at each other.

everything I tried to do after that was aimed to get you to read my posts and reevaluate based on what they actually contained - see: me telling you to read the paragraph I quoted in 3617, read through my ISO again, cross-reference things if you needed to until you realized where you were going wrong on me.

now you've demonstrated that you *do* understand where I'm coming from, but it doesn't mean jack shit to you because it isn't what you would do and you completely ignore the motivation I have stated *in the game thread* to push that what I'm doing is scummy because ... I'm not playing how you would expect? it isn't exactly how you would have played in that position? you can't infer any other reason I might be playing this way besides what I've said in the game thread, which you haven't accepted because... ???

[pieguyn]

I swear to god, I might actually just cry if you're scum.

if I help you get S_S today, you'll help me get Jester post-intermission, right?

[pieguyn]

and i mean ...

once mhsmith quits being an idiot and refusing to acknowledge me explaining to him in as clear terms as possible why i chose to approach this game the way i did, and then wondering why he can't understand my play, i'll quit berating him for being an idiot...

[pieguyn]

vote: S_S/mariar

[pieguyn]

Cv666 is town, btw, I would never allow a lynch on them even if they don't get NK'ed.

[pieguyn]

I don't want a lynch on my pair atm. I actually want to relax and think for a bit first.

I'll vote whichever of Jester/S_S is more viable.

[pieguyn]

Idk why smith and pie didn't have that convo in their PT.

Elaborate on why the town had to be subjected to that please, either of you.

you're town, but don't make posts like this

[pieguyn]

it's not about whether it's a serious question or not, it's that PTs shouldn't be used for things that could just as easily be in the game thread.

as an example, us having it in the game thread directly allowed HS to comment and give their opinion on it and hold me back after I had pushed it too far. anyone else who wanted to comment could have done the same

[pieguyn]

How are people townreading cerb again?
It it literally just 'he paired with the ic'?

keep your lips sealed, or I'll have to make sure that I seal them for you.

/stares into your eyes

[pieguyn]

@pie: I suppose I disagree, primarily because of the stifling effect such exchanges tend to have on conversation throughout the thread. I believe it's an anti-town sentiment.

I don't agree with this mentality at all. in fact, I actually think it's far more toxic than anything I've said or done in this game.

if you don't want to read it, skip it - but there is no reason I or anyone else should be forced to play suboptimally just because other people find it unpleasant, especially when they always have the option to just skip over it if they don't want to engage it.

[pieguyn]

Sorry pie, I'm on cerb's side here. Even if you see some marginal benefit to posting all that out here, it's a behavior that benefits you add scum far more, so town-you shouldn't do it.

had I kept this in the PT, what probably would have happened was I'd still think mhsmith is scum, neither of us would have got anywhere with our reads on each other, it'd be close to irreparable, and no one in the thread would be able to engage with it in any meaningful way because they wouldn't know what was going on. except maybe for brief relays from the PT, but that's nowhere enough detail to engage with it in any meaningful way.

if mhsmith is town, then what I did was better.

[pieguyn]

I agree. I'm not one to complain about people posting a lot etc. The mentality your attacking isn't one I share....however, I know a LOT of players DO feel that way, and their eyes glaze over when they see series of walls, and it inspires apathy in the town.

I expect you to know better than to drown town in something that induces apathy within 20 hours of deadline.

/shrug

as I said, I'm not going to force myself to play suboptimally - people can just skip over my posts if they don't want to read them. if they can't handle even skipping over them, that's their fault

[pieguyn]

what the hell.

HAHAHA

[pieguyn]

I didn't even read the "pair with Shadow" as town because I figured she'd have done it as either alignment, I just didn't think her play looked like scum.

I am so pissed off right now.

[pieguyn]

this is what's going to happen.

vote: Jester

first, we lynch Jester. this really should have happened yesterday and I'm pretty sure most people are in agreement here.

next, I want a lynch on Parama. I thoroughly hated the push on S_S (town), and they have continued to push SAD for similarly nebulous reasons, who not only I feel sure is town but I feel pretty sure is part of a town/town pair. I have no reason to town read them and I do not understand why they are so universally town read. I want people if they're town reading Parama to explain why, and if your reasoning is "their tone looks town" then no, that doesn't mean anything at this stage of the game.

I feel pretty sure that's 2/2, then after that I'll go from there. I definitely don't want a lynch on mhsmith right at this stage of the game (though I might consider it again once these two pairs flip).

[pieguyn]

I guess I could also do it the other way around, but at this point Jester is really, really, really obviously lurk-scum.

[pieguyn]

HS is lock-town especially after her last few posts, it's just unfortunate that her lover is scum.

SAD/inspectorscout are both town. from there the last scum pair is either mine or Dunn/Kagami, but I haven't looked that much further into it yet.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: mhsmith-pie

This contains scum. I was just wrong about which one of the two.

/sighs loudly

explain?

[pieguyn]

is there literally any reason to keep Jester alive?

seriously, try to think of one.

it's frankly a complete disaster that he's been allowed to live as long as he has been; he is not even attempting to generate content at this point.

[pieguyn]

oh my fucking god scout, your reads are god-awful.

[pieguyn]

jester is playing 100% lurkscum, though

^this.

do you really need me to quote his entire ISO and explain why there's nothing town in it? if you disagree with him being scum, actually look at his posts and give me *ONE* reason for him being town.

[pieguyn]

I am pushing this because there is absolutely, absolutely nothing town in his posts. it's beyond nonsensical that he was allowed to live through yesterday because of "lul S_S is scum" "lul I'ma suicide on GE" shenanigans and I want this to happen no longer.

[pieguyn]

I never said I disagreed. Tell me where I said that.

don't give me this semantic nonsense.

you are calling me scum for my push on Jester, either explain why I'm wrong or back off.

[pieguyn]

and yes, you somehow seem to think that _your_ pair is a scum pair on top of all this, despite both SAD and you being obviously town, so your view of the game is completely off.

in similar vein, if you want to try to explain the scum read on SAD you can and I'll let you know where I think you're going wrong with it.

[pieguyn]

Pedit: I mainly called you scum for your terrible progression on mhsmith.

I was thinking really emotionally at the point when I was certain mhsmith was scum.

I've stepped back a bit and I don't feel anywhere near as good about lynching him as I did before, especially with two people who I think are fairly obviously scum. I don't have a town read on him, but I'm not completely full of bloodlust like I was before and I seriously question whether my assessment of his posts was correct. HS reigning me in and getting me to calm down and be more receptive to mhsmith's mindset is a lot of the reason for this, but even outside of that I just don't know.

also it isn't that "I don't want to lynch mhsmith until we get two town flips", it's that I want Jester -> Parama and then I reevaluate from there regardless of what they flip - even if both are scum, there is still a chance I lynch mhsmith afterward anyway.

[pieguyn]

The fact that he refused to believe S_S wasnt scum, even though i made valid arguments as to why i thought he wasnt

I don't feel as though this is a scum tell in SAD's case; his push on S_S was one of the more reasonable-sounding ones there, and I can't fault him for it at all, not in the same way I fault Parama for inventing a "scum slip" that clearly wasn't a slip.

The fact that he played the 'okay you have the right to say you were right unless youre scum but i dont think you are'

again, I don't feel as though this is a scum tell and I'm not really sure why you think it is.

The fact that we are very much townread and have more influence than cerb+ nad but we didnt get killed, and when i asked arthur about if he thought we would get nightkilled he came with some bad excuse as to why we arent a probable nightkill. Before i asked he wanted to read the thread and stuff and had no possible thought of us dying. Who cant die, even if theyre townread? Scum.

scum effectively had to kill Cv666/Nahdia last night regardless of reads. there was some suspicion on Cv666, but I've said a billion times that all we need in this setup is to identify one town/town pair and make it to endgame. leaving Cv666 alive means that if he was to come back into the thread and start being active and looking really town - and he strongly hinted this is what he was going to do, and that he was largely attempting to appear useless on purpose to dodge a night kill and do exactly this - scum is straight up completely fucked with no recourse.

I don't feel as though you two being alive means anything. me and mhsmith speculated that maybe if Cv666 was scum you two might die, but since he was town he was pretty much the required NK (and a lot of what I did at the end of D1 was me overstating a town read on him because I wanted to force a kill on their pair if they were town in order to avoid "why are they still alive" shenanigans).

The fact that, when I asked him about his reads after flip he said a lot but most was just questions to me like 'what do you think of kagami'

I can't make anything of this unless I have more context/specifics.

[pieguyn]

When did she think I was fine? She was pushing on me since super early in her ISO

She never pushed you until that point.

@pie i still dont believe it, im pretty sure there is scum in you-mhsmith.

what part don't you believe? and if you don't have any specifics and you're just ignoring me trying to explain to you why you're wrong because you "don't believe it", then don't interact with me, thanks in advance.

[pieguyn]

You may not think of it as a scumtell, but i definitely do.

why?

What do you have to say about him not even thinking about being nightkilled?

what I have to say is literally exactly what I said before. it's fairly common sense that unless the IC pairs with scum or there are extenuating circumstances that make leaving the IC pair alive viable, the IC pair is just the standard kill in this setup because leaving it alive has the potential to completely fuck scum over if the other person gets widely recognized as town.

[pieguyn]

Basically your explaination is 'i was emotional, i took a step back and saw the light again'

In what way is that a probable truth that i should believe right away? Its not a solid reason other than 'i was playing bad/emotionally', and I think your progression was scummy, regardless of emotion. I dont think thats inhuman for me to say.

I mean, if you wanna be a bad player and ignore that mafia is just an emotional game sometimes, go for it.

you could also just ask HS.